Gulftown - how much of an improvement will it be?

[MacApple21]

I'm in the market for either a iMac or Mac Pro (haven't decided yet)
But I would like to know how much of an improvement a six core Gultown processor would be compared to an Quad core Nehalem.
I know it depends on what you are going to use it for, but in relation to all round use like video encoding, gaming under bootcamp and so on. But also in benchmark comparison.
Basically it will decide whether I'm going to wait for the update or not.

P.S. I know about the "buy it if you need it" advice. I don't NEED it right now, but I would like a substantial improvement if I'm going to wait for 6-10 months. I would very much appreciate some thoughts about this :)

[alphaod]

The update should be a "tick" in the roadmap which is just a processor refresh. That usually means it'll just be some minor improvements like a die shrink (lower power, less heat, more cores, higher yields), maybe a tweak here and there, but overall it'll be just another minor change.

Odds are, people with the current Mac Pros will be able to drop [a] new processor[s] in and upgrade.

[TheStrudel]

There's always the possibility that  will add some features to the Mac Pro, such as eSATA or firewire 3200, etc. Or remove some of things that annoyed people about the 2009 Mac Pro (RAID cap, etc.).

[alphaod]

Or remove some of things that annoyed people about the 2009 Mac Pro (RAID cap, etc.).

Well technically the RAID cap is Intel's fault… sure Apple could add and nForce chipset, and then add SLI :p

[MacApple21]

The update should be a "tick" in the roadmap which is just a processor refresh. That usually means it'll just be some minor improvements like a die shrink (lower power, less heat, more cores, higher yields), maybe a tweak here and there, but overall it'll be just another minor change.

Odds are, people with the current Mac Pros will be able to drop [a] new processor[s] in and upgrade.

That sounds interesting, maybe that will be my solution.

[Salavat23]

Westmere (Gulftown) will be a drop in replacement for Nehalem (Bloomfield).

So you guys can just drop the 6-core chips right into your Mac Pro.

They should use less electricity (but will still have 130w tdp), have more cache (12mb L3), and have higher turbo frequencies. And of course slightly better performance per clock.

They also raise the memory capacity from 24gb/controller to 48gb/controller, so once 8GB DDR3 DIMMs come out, you can use them for up to 48gb of ram on the Xeon 3xxx and 96gb potential on dual-Xeon 5xxx.

But the issue is that even though the CPUs are just a drop in replacement, in many cases a BIOS update will be required, as in the case of PCs.

[xiovoix]

First to adopt USB3!

[frimple]

They also raise the memory capacity from 24gb/controller to 48gb/controller, so once 8GB DDR3 DIMMs come out, you can use them for up to 48gb of ram on the Xeon 3xxx and 96gb potential on dual-Xeon 5xxx.

I don't believe that this is true. The highest supported memory per controller is 144GB (http://techreport.com/articles.x/16656.. about 2/3 the way down the front page). Also 8GB density chips have already started showing up (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820609486), they're just a little spendy ;)

EDIT: Oops... looks like the 144 GB number is for a dual socket system.

[yanquis]

i expect 1 gulftown to be about = to a current top end mac pro octa. 6 cores, better integration, faster clock-for-clock... as for 2x gulftown...whoa :eek:

to me, its a pretty major upgrade & one i am eager for. there is also nehalem EX (8 core chips so 16 real cores on one machine would be easy) due around the same time i think.

[Salavat23]

I don't believe that this is true. The highest supported memory per controller is 144GB (http://techreport.com/articles.x/16656.. about 2/3 the way down the front page). Also 8GB density chips have already started showing up (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820609486), they're just a little spendy ;)

Nice, haven't seen those 24GB kits yet.

I was basing the Xeon 5xxx memory cap on the already known information about the i9 48gb cap. Guess those might be at a 192gb cap, but only time will tell.

i expect 1 gulftown to be about = to a current top end mac pro octa. 6 cores, better integration, faster clock-for-clock... as for 2x gulftown...whoa :eek:

to me, its a pretty major upgrade & one i am eager for. there is also nehalem EX (8 core chips so 16 real cores on one machine would be easy) due around the same time i think.

I wouldn't say it would equal a top end MP since you are still losing 2 cores, no matter what their speed. Might trade blows here and there, but if it gets higher turbo frequencies, it'll definitely be coming out on top more often than not.

This should be a very easy upgrade for Apple to do in the transition to Westmere. They don't have to change a single piece of hardware except for the CPUs for it to work flawlessly. Of course we'll still see the usual HDD/Memory, GPU bumps.

[frimple]

Nice, haven't seen those 24GB kits yet.

I was basing the Xeon 5xxx memory cap on the already known information about the i9 48gb cap. Guess those might be at a 192gb cap, but only time will tell.

Yeah, those 24GB kits look sweet :D. Now we just need someone with a 09 and $3,400 to blow to try it out for us! :cool:

[gugucom]

But the issue is that even though the CPUs are just a drop in replacement, in many cases a BIOS update will be required, as in the case of PCs.

And this is where the plan will fall down. Do you in all honesty expect Apple to issue a firmware update for machines that have been payed for by the customer? This would be the first time that Apple provides such a service. They are the meanest buggers when it comes to firmware updates in the whole computer industry.

The MP1,1 and 2,1 still got EFI32 although all later models had EFI64 and it is really crippled by that piece of garbage.

A comparable die shrink happend from MP2,1 to 3,1. The 771 socket remained the same and every PC manufacturer had simply issued firmware updates. Customers would be able to use X52xx and X54xx CPUs instead of X51xx and X53xx CPUs if Apple had done that firmware upgrade.

I say: No way Apple will do that from their track record.

[AppleWorking]

I say: No way Apple will do that from their track record.I agree, if anything they would do something to prevent a CPU upgrade by the consumer. I doubt they would ever go that far, but you have better odds of that happening than a firmware update that allows one. :mad:

[gugucom]

I agree, if anything they would do something to prevent a CPU upgrade by the consumer. I doubt they would ever go that far, but you have better odds of that happening than a firmware update that allows one. :mad:


Glad you agree ... :p hell would freeze over before Apple does one man hour of firmware work on an out of sale Mac Pro.

[Umbongo]

Nice, haven't seen those 24GB kits yet.

I was basing the Xeon 5xxx memory cap on the already known information about the i9 48gb cap. Guess those might be at a 192gb cap, but only time will tell.

5500 systems already support 96GB per socket using 6x16GB DIMMs. If there is a cap it isn't any number currently achievable. 32GB DIMMs were (are?) comming to the platform too.

[TheStrudel]

Glad you agree ... :p hell would freeze over before Apple does one man hour of firmware work on an out of sale Mac Pro.

Well, they'll do updates to fix bugs and crashes, and have done in the past. But they wouldn't release an upgrade.

[alphaod]

5500 systems already support 96GB per socket using 6x16GB DIMMs. If there is a cap it isn't any number currently achievable. 32GB DIMMs were (are?) comming to the platform too.

Mmm, I can't wait to get 256GB of RAM.

Though I can't imagine what I'd need that much for!

[Techhie]

At any rate, it's best to wait as long as you can. I don't see an update coming in the next few months, so I'd buy now (I did :cool:) If you are going for the baseline Mac Pro, it's not really even worth the wait, but for the top of the line models, 4 more cores is like adding a 3rd processor to the current system (plus hyperthreading for virtual cores, yikes!)

[Salavat23]

And this is where the plan will fall down. Do you in all honesty expect Apple to issue a firmware update for machines that have been payed for by the customer? This would be the first time that Apple provides such a service. They are the meanest buggers when it comes to firmware updates in the whole computer industry.

The MP1,1 and 2,1 still got EFI32 although all later models had EFI64 and it is really crippled by that piece of garbage.

A comparable die shrink happend from MP2,1 to 3,1. The 771 socket remained the same and every PC manufacturer had simply issued firmware updates. Customers would be able to use X52xx and X54xx CPUs instead of X51xx and X53xx CPUs if Apple had done that firmware upgrade.

I say: No way Apple will do that from their track record.

You never know for sure though (not that Apple will release an update, but whether or not an update is required). There are a few early previews on the web of Core i9, and it appears to be working working out of the box with current configurations.

And IMO, if you look at it technically, a BIOS update is not really necessary as it was with the Core 2 line. The buses remain identical, so does the internal architecture. Its basically the exact same CPU but with a few important changes. So on one hand it might work.

On the other hand, some boards are very picky as to what CPU's they run under which BIOS. Some even have problems with various steppings of the same CPU. But these situations are somewhat more rare.

The 4-core MP uses a renamed X58 chipset. (Identical hardware to the consumer side, just renamed). So it is a strong possibility that at least for the 4-core variant, you many not need to do anything but just drop it in.

[yanquis]

At any rate, it's best to wait as long as you can. I don't see an update coming in the next few months, so I'd buy now (I did :cool:) If you are going for the baseline Mac Pro, it's not really even worth the wait, but for the top of the line models, 4 more cores is like adding a 3rd processor to the current system (plus hyperthreading for virtual cores, yikes!)

it might even be closer to doubling the speed. i believe i read somewhere that there is only going to be one gulftown model & its replacing whatever the core i7 Xtreme model is now as the top-end gaming processor, so its presumably going to have a high clockspeed, maybe even 3.33 ghz. couple that with other advances (higher clock-for-clock, etc) & it will be a computer nerds wet dream. probably cost a good chunk of change though. ;)

[gugucom]

Well, they'll do updates to fix bugs and crashes, and have done in the past. But they wouldn't release an upgrade.

I' will not go into splitting hairs over this issue. It is a philosophy question. Of course they have issued bug fixes but then again they have not in the case of the EFI32. EFI32 doesn't comply with applicable ISO standards and makes DVDs with versioned file names hang on boot. What other companies consider an update Apple considers an upgrade because they sell very restricted firmware configurations compared to other mobo makers. This is my biggest gripe with Apple as a company. It devalues the Mac Pro which is aimed at a market where people expect high modularity and upgradability. Apple certainly do not deliver that to my expectations.

[gugucom]

it might even be closer to doubling the speed. i believe i read somewhere that there is only going to be one gulftown model & its replacing whatever the core i7 Xtreme model is now as the top-end gaming processor, so its presumably going to have a high clockspeed, maybe even 3.33 ghz. couple that with other advances (higher clock-for-clock, etc) & it will be a computer nerds wet dream. probably cost a good chunk of change though. ;)

I expect the top line Gulftowns in the 1600$ price range as the W5580 and W5590 did. Those will drop in price when the new stars go on sale.

[Salavat23]

it might even be closer to doubling the speed. i believe i read somewhere that there is only going to be one gulftown model & its replacing whatever the core i7 Xtreme model is now as the top-end gaming processor, so its presumably going to have a high clockspeed, maybe even 3.33 ghz. couple that with other advances (higher clock-for-clock, etc) & it will be a computer nerds wet dream. probably cost a good chunk of change though. ;)

It will run at 2.4GHz as early ES chips show. But it may be coupled with ridiculous turbo-mode frequencies like the i7 Mobile parts which may make a huge difference.

[nanofrog]

The update should be a "tick" in the road map which is just a processor refresh. That usually means it'll just be some minor improvements like a die shrink (lower power, less heat, more cores, higher yields), maybe a tweak here and there, but overall it'll be just another minor change.
Yep. Die shrink + another pair of cores (TDP is still 130W, but you do get the extra pair) are what will matter to the end user. Yields are more interesting to Intel (leaving the potential for price affects out of it). :p

Odds are, people with the current Mac Pros will be able to drop [a] new processor[s] in and upgrade.
Ideally, the firmware would require CPU microcode added to it to ID the newer parts, but the basics would apply. The voltage specs of the Gulftowns will work within the range of the Gainestown parts, and the rest will be the same.

Well technically the RAID cap is Intel's fault… sure Apple could add and nForce chipset, and then add SLI :p
True. Apple gets a pass on the ICH10R throughputs. For a change. :eek: :p

The nForce for SLI however, no. I think "Not until Hell freezes over" definitely applies here. :D :p

And this is where the plan will fall down. Do you in all honesty expect Apple to issue a firmware update for machines that have been payed for by the customer? This would be the first time that Apple provides such a service. They are the meanest buggers when it comes to firmware updates in the whole computer industry.
I'd have to vehemently agree here. :rolleyes: :(

'09 MP owners shouldn't expect a firmware update from Apple, no matter how easy/feasible it is. Their history supports otherwise, at least (and you happened to point out the specifics ;)).

[frimple]

It will run at 2.4GHz as early ES chips show. But it may be coupled with ridiculous turbo-mode frequencies like the i7 Mobile parts which may make a huge difference.

Sadly the problem will always be the cart before the horse. We've already got 8 cores that aren't being utilized by a majority of applications out there so what's an extra 4 really going to give us? I mean, I can't wait to get a couple of these in my data center and behind some databases but for the average user this really won't mean much. And that's why I doubt Apple will even offer them. I see them offering the 5580 and 5590, but this is a server chip - plain and simple.

[twoodcc]

i think it will be a pretty good upgrade. i read online that someone had an early version of an i9 running over 6 ghz! granted that's overclocked, but still crazy

[nanofrog]

Sadly the problem will always be the cart before the horse. We've already got 8 cores that aren't being utilized by a majority of applications out there so what's an extra 4 really going to give us? I mean, I can't wait to get a couple of these in my data center and behind some databases but for the average user this really won't mean much. And that's why I doubt Apple will even offer them. I see them offering the 5580 and 5590, but this is a server chip - plain and simple.
It could make for a better price/performance ratio for a SP workstation though, assuming the user has the software to utilize the system in the first place.

Otherwise, if it's all single threaded applications, it's the same situation as any other multicore system. They sit there inactive most of the time. ;)

[Cynicalone]

Otherwise, if it's all single threaded applications, it's the same situation as any other multicore system. They sit there inactive most of the time. ;)

Software is now and will continue to be the problem.

I think we have reached a point where the focus needs to shift to better use of the power we have. 16 or 24 virtual cores really means nothing when the majority of software can't use them. I work with a ton of RAM everyday and still end up with page outs and end up using swap because of outdated software.

[nanofrog]

Software is now and will continue to be the problem.

I think we have reached a point where the focus needs to shift to better use of the power we have. 16 or 24 virtual cores really means nothing when the majority of software can't use them. I work with a ton of RAM everyday and still end up with page outs and end up using swap because of outdated software.
I agree. Some can use the power, but it's the minority of users.

Unfortunately, the enterprise market drives sales more than consumers, as we buy 1 system, they buy thousands (example, thinking 1 user vs. 1 mega conglomerate). :eek: :p

What would help everyone, would be higher clock speeds. Mid level parts exceeding 4 or even 5GHz would do it. ;) Of course if it happens, the software would get bloated enough shortly thereafter to negate any gains....:p

[MacApple21]

And this is where the plan will fall down. Do you in all honesty expect Apple to issue a firmware update for machines that have been payed for by the customer? This would be the first time that Apple provides such a service. They are the meanest buggers when it comes to firmware updates in the whole computer industry.

The MP1,1 and 2,1 still got EFI32 although all later models had EFI64 and it is really crippled by that piece of garbage.

A comparable die shrink happend from MP2,1 to 3,1. The 771 socket remained the same and every PC manufacturer had simply issued firmware updates. Customers would be able to use X52xx and X54xx CPUs instead of X51xx and X53xx CPUs if Apple had done that firmware upgrade.

I say: No way Apple will do that from their track record.

I agree, Apple are too money hungry to ever give us that opportunity, sadly :(
But can't we get this firmware from another source, much like people as Netkas, who have made injectors for not officially supported GPUs?
Isn't it possible to somehow "extract" the firmware from a future Mac Pro using Gultown, anyone?

[gugucom]

I agree, Apple are too money hungry to ever give us that opportunity, sadly :(
But can't we get this firmware from another source, much like people as Netkas, who have made injectors for not officially supported GPUs?
Isn't it possible to somehow "extract" the firmware from a future Mac Pro using Gultown, anyone?

I can see a business case for someone reverse engineering apple firmware and making upgrades available for cash. :D;)

For a decent EFI upgrade I would probably easily pay 200$. But then it has to be the "Egglayingwoolmilkhog" as we say.

[mmendoza27]

I think people are getting confused thinking that Gulftown will be the new processor in the Mac Pro, but it is a Core i9 processor. At IDF yesterday, they showed the Westmere-EP processor, which is the successor to the Nehalem (Xeon series) that is found in the Mac Pro.

Basic things that are different: 32nm. You can expect higher frequencies at same TDP's. I did a quick google search and found a 2.4 Ghz 6-core that was being tested (could this be the new low-end $3299 model clock speed?)

AES-NI instructions. Used with encryption/decryption performance since the new instructions make it easier to handle these duties.

Not much information is out there right now.