Microsoft Attempting to Lure Away Apple Retail Store Staff?

[Mattie Num Nums]

No ones.

Wow. You sir need to get out more.

Ron Johnson - Pioneered Apple Retail and genius bar. Was recruited from Target where he was the Vice President of Merchandising.

Tim Cook - Recruited (in a rather ugly battle) from IBM

Peter Oppenheimer - Vice President at ADP

Mark Papermaster - Recruited (another ugly battle) from IBM

Bruce Sewell - Intel

George Blankenship - Gap Exec (left Apple for Microsoft)

Bob Mansfield - Exec at Rayser (whom Apple bought out)

Not to mention all the NeXT employees and execs and all the companies Apple bought. Shall I continue?

[*LTD*]

Wow. You sir need to get out more.

Ron Johnson - Pioneered Apple Retail and genius bar. Was recruited from Target where he was the Vice President of Merchandising.

Tim Cook - Recruited (in a rather ugly battle) from IBM

Peter Oppenheimer - Vice President at ADP

Mark Papermaster - Recruited (another ugly battle) from IBM

Bruce Sewell - Intel

George Blankenship - Gap Exec (left Apple for Microsoft)

Bob Mansfield - Exec at Rayser (whom Apple bought out)

Not to mention all the NeXT employees and execs and all the companies Apple bought. Shall I continue?

I think you misunderstood.

[LagunaSol]

There you are!

Latest newly-joined MacRumors troll seeks Photoshop skills. Inquire within.

[VenusianSky]

Wow. You sir need to get out more.

Ron Johnson - Pioneered Apple Retail and genius bar. Was recruited from Target where he was the Vice President of Merchandising.

Tim Cook - Recruited (in a rather ugly battle) from IBM

Peter Oppenheimer - Vice President at ADP

Mark Papermaster - Recruited (another ugly battle) from IBM

Bruce Sewell - Intel

George Blankenship - Gap Exec (left Apple for Microsoft)

Bob Mansfield - Exec at Rayser (whom Apple bought out)

Not to mention all the NeXT employees and execs and all the companies Apple bought. Shall I continue?

No, no, no... Apple biogenetically produced their employees in test tubes. They were created from Steve Jobs DNA.

[JGowan]

Potential "switchers"/defectors need to consider the very real possibility that while the paycheck might be bigger for awhile, they might not have the job for long. Microsoft won't keep the stores going forever if it's not making any money. The switcher loses his job and then won't be rehired back at the Apple store.

[ericinboston]

Keep this in mind--When a company offers you a lot of money to join them they want you to fix their problem. After the problem is fixed they don't need you.

This has been said many times before " Microsoft does what it does best---COPY"

Just like when Apple re-hired Steve Jobs when Apple was on the brink of bankruptcy 10 years ago? Where's Steve now? Yeah...still employed.

Your statement MAY be true for a small percentage of businesses and/or situations, but MOST businesses don't hire you to fix a problem and then FIRE you a year later or ASAP after the problem is fixed. That just doesn't make sense...reward someone by firing them...and then what...go back to the "old way" and have the company fail again?

[LagunaSol]

I heard pcrumors.com was trying to get the MR staff...

Why bother with a separate site? All the PC people are here on the MacRumors board, singing Lord Ballmer's praises, astroturfing the latest Zune device and raging against the Great Glowing Fruit. They hates itsssss....

[MacMonster1985]

Why bother with a separate site? All the PC people are here on the MacRumors board, singing Lord Ballmer's praises, astroturfing the latest Zune device and raging against the Great Glowing Fruit. They hates itsssss....

You obviously didn't click the link.

[VenusianSky]

Why bother with a separate site? All the PC people are here on the MacRumors board, singing Lord Ballmer's praises, astroturfing the latest Zune device and raging against the Great Glowing Fruit. They hates itsssss....

Agreed. Macrumors has all the PC and Mac rumors in one TERRIFIC site. It covers the latest ipod's, zunes, Windows OS, Mac OS, Apple Stores, Microsoft stores. Who needs to go anywhere else?

[LagunaSol]

You obviously didn't click the link.

LOL! You're right, I didn't. Props to TheGoldenMacKid. :D

(I've learned not to click links after one too many Goat-se/Tub Girl/2 Girls 1 Cup experiences... *shudder*)

[i.mac]

Agreed. Macrumors has all the PC and Mac rumors in one TERRIFIC site. It covers the latest ipod's, zunes, Windows OS, Mac OS, Apple Stores, Microsoft stores. Who needs to go anywhere else?

...you are right. :)

this is the only forum where you get all things mac-ro-soft. :)

[MH01]

Do you need to use it to know it's an ill-conceived, dead-end device?

Unless MS does a helluva lot more with it, it won't last very long. Apparently, we're being told it's not even competition for the iPod Touch. Which leaves it somewhere between "limited" and "pointless."

And this is based on whose opinion? Most rationale individuals have the ability to make up their own minds and not just act like drones that are told what they should think. If you ACTUALLY read some reviews on it, you would find that it is getting very positive feedback. Though nothing beats hands on experience. Would you buy a car based on reviews without test driving it? who am i kidding, if apple made one of course you would....

Has it ever crossed your mind that the touch only appeals to certain users? Take for example Audiophiles, they would never touch an Ipod touch, if you actually did you research you would find that the touch is one of the worst sounding MP3 devices. The original zune was known for its sound quality.

[The Monkey]

That people have such strong negative reactions to this practice is funny (funny actually meaning sad). I also like the proponents of the mega corporation restricting the freedom of movement among its employees. I would have hoped that such pro-corporation drivel would have at least slowed given the state of the economy.

The vast majority of companies (yes, including Apple) have no loyalties to their employees. You will be fired as business circumstances dictate. It is just plain silly to stay at a company out of some notion of loyalty if there is a better opportunity to be found elsewhere.

[LagunaSol]

And this is based on whose opinion?

The market has spoken. Actually, the market has already been saturated. The PMP market is now on the downward slide. Apple harvested the crop and now Microsoft is showing up a year later to pick up the scraps.

The point is not whether the Zune HD is a good device for what it is. The point is that what it is is not what people are looking for going forward. It's a product for yesterday's market. Typical Microsoft "Hey, we want some of that!" and then showing up when everyone else is packing up and turning off the lights.

And we can argue about it all day, but ultimately the sales numbers will do the talking. And I can't imagine the Zune HD will sell in numbers worth talking about. Only time will tell.

Take for example Audiophiles, they would never touch an Ipod touch

Ah, the audiophile PMP market. Why, that ought to net Microsoft hundreds of Zune HD sales!

[MH01]

Why bother with a separate site? All the PC people are here on the MacRumors board, singing Lord Ballmer's praises, astroturfing the latest Zune device and raging against the Great Glowing Fruit. They hates itsssss....

How amazingly hard of a concept is it to accept that someone might use both a PC and a Mac? Some get really crazy and run both OS on a mac...WOW!

Though the iPod touch is an amazing gaming platform, some of us might just hang onto our PCs for our gaming needs.

[i.mac]

imagine you work for apple store...

1. you go to work for MS store...
2. get a wintel on your hands... yuck!
3. become miserable selling these things... knowing that you are lying sometimes... (MS products are _not_ the best)
4. need therapy because you cannot sleep at night, you're so miserable...
5. sometimes you go to back to the apple store to remember how it was...
6. you even help folks at the apple store for free, it is your hobby... :)
7. PoP, you wakeup, it was only a nightmare.... you do not even work at the apple store... :)


Disclaimer: any similarity with real folks or with reality at large is purely coincidental.

[LagunaSol]

How amazingly hard of a concept is it to accept that someone might use both a PC and a Mac? Some get really crazy and run both OS on a mac...WOW!

Yeah, just like me!

But I don't camp the Windows-oriented forums to talk about how much I hate Microsoft. Apparently that's the difference.

[*LTD*]

And this is based on whose opinion? Most rationale individuals have the ability to make up their own minds and not just act like drones that are told what they should think. If you ACTUALLY read some reviews on it, you would find that it is getting very positive feedback. Though nothing beats hands on experience. Would you buy a car based on reviews without test driving it? who am i kidding, if apple made one of course you would....

Has it ever crossed your mind that the touch only appeals to certain users? Take for example Audiophiles, they would never touch an Ipod touch, if you actually did you research you would find that the touch is one of the worst sounding MP3 devices. The original zune was known for its sound quality.

Hey, we're just going on track records. the Zune, WinMo, Pink or whatever, The Windows Marketplace (or is the Zune market?), etc.

When it comes to the consumer sphere, MS usually has its head way up its ass. What would you have us expect *this time* around?

As it stands now, the Zune HD's positioning is potentially more confusing than MS' mobile "strategy."

[Rodimus Prime]

I think you misunderstood.

Always funny when a Fanboy is proven wrong in one of there points they come up with a lame excuse.

never mind the fact that person after person has pointed out that what Microsoft is doing is a standard practice done by multiple companies including apple.
It is a safe bet when Apple started their stores they stole mangers from other electronic stores. Same as microsoft is doing. People are making a huge deal because Apple stores happen to be one of them.

This is normal just the fanboys and media try to make a big deal out of nothing and refuse to report the truth that it is a standard practice. I mean they know fanboys will rant and rave over it. Easy add sells playing off the stupidity of people out there.

[i.mac]

...

some of us might just hang onto our PCs for our gaming needs.

or working needs... but MS still sucks to the nth power. Yuck!

[star-fish]

Why doesn't Microsoft do what they always do : Hire India :rolleyes:

As opposed to hiring China like Apple?




For all those people saying MS's version of a Genius Bar would be ridiculous because of all the problems - not really. Think about whether more is known about widespread diseases or uncommon ones :rolleyes: Apple is easily snowed under with problems - just look at the Apple discussion boards - and most of the time they ignore them. Which is why they have customers fixing their keyboards with bits of foil, purposely dropping ipods to make them work and endless other stupid fixes. They ignore widespread problems unless they are leaked into the media. Yes, there are far fewer problems overall, but that's in part to do with the customer base being 95% smaller.

Let's not forget the vast majority of Windows users aren't that experienced. They can type, visit a website, and copy and paste. Of course there are going to be more issues compared to so many Apple users being IT professionals, software engineers, highly skilled designers etc. I've had Windows machines still going that have been around for years without any problems. Most of the people with problems are downloading dangerous things, don't have (free) anti-virus software or just basically have no clue.

And let's not forget the prices...for $2000 I can have a computer with hardly any compatible software for 5 years that becomes severely outdated by that point...or for $2000 I could buy two top-spec PCs a couple of years apart and enjoy the latest technology all the time.

[dvdhsu]

Wow, remember when Apple was the underdog?

Oh yeah! I remember that now! Wasn't that back in like 1999? :D
Jesus, like everybody is saying, you have to get people who are passionate about your brand.
They're working there, not just for the money, but also because they like what they do.
They enjoy doing what they do, and will always try their hardest.
That's what most Apple Stores I've been to are all about.

[jav6454]

I didn't say that Apple's goal wasn't to make money. But what I did say was that the people that work for Apple Retail work there for one of a few reasons:

(1) They are passionate about Apple as a brand, and what it stands for.
(2) They work for Apple just to acquire a paycheck.
(3) A combination of both.

I like to believe that the majority of Apple's employees go for No. (3). It's true that some of the employees there only work at Apple for the paycheck -- those are usually the associates involved when you hear about the rare, bad experiences at the Apple Store. And more than likely, if anyone was to leave Apple for Microsoft, it'd be these people.

But those who are so passionate about Apple, that even their lives are affected to the point that they'd always stand up for it, it's those people that Microsoft wants. And simply put, they won't get them -- because these people care about Apple more so than perhaps anything else.

Out of the whole thread, this post sums up how Microsoft will FAIL.

[The Monkey]

Also, the whole premise of a "genius bar" is--and always has been--full of fail.

[star-fish]

Just like when Apple re-hired Steve Jobs when Apple was on the brink of bankruptcy 10 years ago? Where's Steve now? Yeah...still employed.

Your statement MAY be true for a small percentage of businesses, but MOST businesses don't hire you to fix a problem and then FIRE you a year later or ASAP after the problem is fixed. That just doesn't make sense...reward someone by firing them...and then what...go back to the "old way" and have the company fail again?

That's completely different, you're talking about the top of the business where the attention is focused (in Jobs's case). Of course he won't be fired because he's got the charismatic/media position and is the figure the fanboys look up to. Without him, Apple would have to double their marketing budget ;)

Once a project is done or a problem fixed, a photographer or web designer or upper manager or whoever will be fired, end of. Unless they can prove they're worth the money. In my old place, they fired the IT and e-business director on a $200,000 salary once the ten websites had been completed. They had minions to keep the sites running and they didn't need anyone else. They hired people to consult and write copy and everything else because it was cheaper than ousourcing and then made them 'redundant'. It's a cheap way to do things.

Fixing a problem often means it stays fixed, so why would the person be needed?

[MH01]

Hey, we're just going on track records. the Zune, WinMo, Pink or whatever, The Windows Marketplace (or is the Zune market?), etc.

When it comes to the consumer sphere, MS usually has its head way up its ass. What would you have us expect *this time* around?

As it stands now, the Zune HD's positioning is potentially more confusing than MS' mobile "strategy."

I am actually hoping for quality products to compete with the ipods so apple can get off their ass and start innovating instead of just preaching about it. Look at the september ipod keynote, damn lame from a hardware point of view, they just pushed the cash cow that is the app store. I am hoping that the Zune HD does well so apple starts bring some real innovation back to ipods instead of capacity bumps.

[MH01]

The market has spoken. Actually, the market has already been saturated. The PMP market is now on the downward slide. Apple harvested the crop and now Microsoft is showing up a year later to pick up the scraps.

The point is not whether the Zune HD is a good device for what it is. The point is that what it is is not what people are looking for going forward. It's a product for yesterday's market. Typical Microsoft "Hey, we want some of that!" and then showing up when everyone else is packing up and turning off the lights.

And we can argue about it all day, but ultimately the sales numbers will do the talking. And I can't imagine the Zune HD will sell in numbers worth talking about. Only time will tell.



Ah, the audiophile PMP market. Why, that ought to net Microsoft hundreds of Zune HD sales!

hmmm when you buy a product do you base it on personal needs or what is happening in the market?

Thank god Apple did not throw in the towel back in 1997 when it was insignificant in a saturated PC market. Competition is a great thing, I am really happy that Sony and M$ are pushing Apple, this will only result in better Apple products in the future.

[hugodrax]

Wow you got to be kidding. Turning down doubling your salary because of loyalty is foolish.

They would lay your ass off quick if they need to. Anyone turning down a good offer is a fool.

[*LTD*]

I am actually hoping for quality products to compete with the ipods so apple can get off their ass and start innovating instead of just preaching about it. Look at the september ipod keynote, damn lame from a hardware point of view, they just pushed the cash cow that is the app store. I am hoping that the Zune HD does well so apple starts bring some real innovation back to ipods instead of capacity bumps.

I can certainly understand your concerns. The September iPod event, while it did bring some new things to the table, was a bit unexciting when it came to the iPods. Part of this is doe to the reality that the iPhone and similar multifinction devices are replacing dedicated devices. And part of it might also be due to Apple resting on its laurels.

The problem with the Zune HD is that it's a single-function device in a dying market. Unless MS does something much more with it, don't expect it to do anything vis-a-vis the iPod Touch. The iPod Touch itself, is slowly receding into the background, unless it can manage to duplicate certain phone functions at much cheaper cost, which I don't see happening.

We'll see the new Nano do quite well, though. It has the form factor on its side.

[hugodrax]

I didn't say that Apple's goal wasn't to make money. But what I did say was that the people that work for Apple Retail work there for one of a few reasons:

(1) They are passionate about Apple as a brand, and what it stands for.
(2) They work for Apple just to acquire a paycheck.
(3) A combination of both.

I like to believe that the majority of Apple's employees go for No. (3). It's true that some of the employees there only work at Apple for the paycheck -- those are usually the associates involved when you hear about the rare, bad experiences at the Apple Store. And more than likely, if anyone was to leave Apple for Microsoft, it'd be these people.

But those who are so passionate about Apple, that even their lives are affected to the point that they'd always stand up for it, it's those people that Microsoft wants. And simply put, they won't get them -- because these people care about Apple more so than perhaps anything else.

Everyone has a price. I hear Apple pays pretty poorly. Don't tell me that someone who has bills, family will not take a good offer on the table. IF Microsoft comes and offers a 300% increase in salary with good bonus etc.. I seriously doubt they will turn it down.

Its only a job folks.

[Mattie Num Nums]

I think you misunderstood.

Always funny when a Fanboy is proven wrong in one of there points they come up with a lame excuse.

never mind the fact that person after person has pointed out that what Microsoft is doing is a standard practice done by multiple companies including apple.
It is a safe bet when Apple started their stores they stole mangers from other electronic stores. Same as microsoft is doing. People are making a huge deal because Apple stores happen to be one of them.

This is normal just the fanboys and media try to make a big deal out of nothing and refuse to report the truth that it is a standard practice. I mean they know fanboys will rant and rave over it. Easy add sells playing off the stupidity of people out there.

I agree Rodimus. I have no problem proving him wrong. I like Apple, worked their for years they are responsible for helping my career take off however, I am not blind. Apple has changed in the last 3 years since the iPhone came out and its not for the better. Apple is no longer a computer company looking to change computing, and innovate. Apple is a power hungry company that is trying to take over the consumer market. Just like many technical avenues, Apple is thriving on clever marketing and a great fad. I dont believe Apple will be able to hold this up because they have sent a big F you to their loyal base in exchange for their new base.

[*LTD*]

I dont believe Apple will be able to hold this up because they have sent a big F you to their loyal base in exchange for their new base.

So when will the numbers show this, so you can actually be right? Because Apple is posting record quarter after record quarter, and not just with iPhones . . . in a recession. And the rest of 2009 looks very bright. You'd better inform Apple's user base (who is reponsible for Apple's numbers) that they're doing something wrong or tell them they're about to be in for a surprise or some such nonsensical thing.

And who exacly is Apple's "loyal base" - and how is that you're more loyal than anyone else, and exactly what percentage of total sales is this "loyal base" responsible for? I've been an Apple enthusiast since 1994. I sure hope I can get an "Apple loyal base" membership card, too!

[Target362]

If I worked for Apple and Microsoft offered me a job that paied more, and got better benefits, I'd take Microsoft. (I like both Apple and Microsoft, but even if I only liked apple, my point still stands: If MS offered more, I'd take them.

Remember, while there are people who have a passion of what they do, most rather work at a place that offers better pay, as well as better benefits.

From my 19 years of life so far I had two jobs. first was Mcdonalds, which was a dud. My store's management sucked and they offered their crew no benefits (only management got that)

My second and current one is Target. I'm making $8.75 (as opsoed to under $8.40 of the current Min. Wadge. (I left mcdonalds before min wadge went up to 8.40) an hour PUSHING CARTS. (AKA manual labor) I worked labor day and got time and a half. Been pulling in close to $450 and more every two weeks as opposed to 150-250 when i worked at Mcdonalds. Sure its tiough work, and Frankly i'd rather be working at Costco (whos pay and bennfients tops most other places out there, and this is from a family member whos been working there for over 10 years) but for right now its a job and I' like it. Yes I know I could go to school, get a degree and get a high paying job, but thats something of a personal note. I like Retal and thats where I'm going to stay.

[ericinboston]

That's completely different, you're talking about the top of the business where the attention is focused....


Exactly my point...Walter101 throws out these broad generalizations about how the business world works...and I replied with an example of how it DOES NOT work. :) My reply, accurate in its writing, was to show him how wrong he is by making broad generalizations. I did, however, go back and add "and/or in some situations" to clarify what I meant by "businesses"...I meant "businesses" not only in a company (Apple, Best Buy, whoever) but in a business "model" or "practice" or "methodology".

[seven2k7]

Poaching staff is same thing as stealing staff. Apple can have them sign NDAs before they leave as a precaution to protect Apple trade secrets and as a warning to MS.

This move means Microsoft is really desperate.


HAHA..For real? The employee is quitting and leaving they dont have to sign anything. As a former Apple retail employee I would go. Apple retail is all about the customer. Pay is waayyy low. And it is not paradise to work there. They make you believe it is. Look at the turnover rate at the store. Do you see the same staff you did 6 months ago?

[Bregalad]

I can't help but think that paying higher salaries while earning lower margins than Apple is a recipe for losing money. Of course Microsoft has gotten very good at losing money in the last decade. Office and professional services are the only parts of the company that actually make significant profit while all the rest are either marginally successful or running in the red.

[mdgolom]

[QUOTE=jav6454;8523305]Apple can have them sign NDAs before they leave as a precaution to protect QUOTE]

Apple would need them to sign an NDA before they decide to leave. Once they've made th decision to leave, there's no incentive to sign one. I'm not sure you can say "sign this or we're not giving you your last check".

[theneweyes]

http://gizmodo.com/5322328/leak-inside-the-microsoft-store-with-wall+sized-screens-and-the-answers-bar/gallery/

[Target362]

Poaching staff is same thing as stealing staff. Apple can have them sign NDAs before they leave as a precaution to protect Apple trade secrets and as a warning to MS.

This move means Microsoft is really desperate.

Not if they quit. Like Seven said, if they quit they are no longer part of the company. People have free will, if an apple employee wants to work at Microsoft they can very well do so. Theres nothing Apple can do about it. This is not Hitler era.

[flottenheimer]

Cool.
I'm switching to Windows the day MS opens a store in Denmark. My first question at the WindowsGuruBar will be "How do I run Mac software on my PC?"

[Target362]

[QUOTE=jav6454;8523305]

Apple would need them to sign an NDA before they decide to leave. Once they've made th decision to leave, there's no incentive to sign one. I'm not sure you can say "sign this or we're not giving you your last check".

Not if the employee chooses to leave with out notice. While thats not the best practice, there are people who do such a thing.

Plus, even if they did give notice, they do not have to sign it. Apple can't sue, because theres no law broken (yet) whats apple going to do? Have steve jobs lock the employee up and torture them in to signing it? please

[La Porta]

I'm not sure how Apple has said "F you" to any old users. I've been one since I was 5 years old in 1988. I have no complaints, short of the hype of iPods/iPhones over Macs. Eventually, things will balance out.

By the way, I am totally going to have Windows 7 loaded on my MBP, and then waltz in there and demand that they fix something while running Boot Camp. I want to see what happens.

[Target362]

Cool.
I'm switching to Windows the day MS opens a store in Denmark. My first question at the WindowsGuruBar will be "How do I run Mac software on my PC?"

I can bet you the microsoft store, unlike the apple store will help people who have a minor issue right away.

My macbook enter key poped off and I went to the apple store for them to fix it and they wanted me to wait 3 hours. I said I'll just go to the Mac Store (a local authorized apple retailer) and the dumb girl said "they might not be authorized, blah blah blah and we aqre the only legal ones to do it.. I told her nope they ARE authorized and even went to a mac and went to the mac stores website to prove it and she got all pissy and stormed off. .

I went to the mac store, they fixed it in like what? 5 seconds? I was out by the time this woman exited starbucks and walk in the mac store (the starbucks is like 12 feet from the mac store) Had lunch at Chipotle Mexican Grail and went on my day

[Target362]

[B]


By the way, I am totally going to have Windows 7 loaded on my MBP, and then waltz in there and demand that they fix something while running Boot Camp. I want to see what happens.

I have windows 7 RC1 installed on my mac and it runs fine. Better then vista did :cool:

[bruinsrme]

Cool.
I'm switching to Windows the day MS opens a store in Denmark. My first question at the WindowsGuruBar will be "How do I run Mac software on my PC?"

Well, according to Apple's EULA, running OSX on a non-apple branded computer is illegal.
So I don't get why you would ask that.

[aristobrat]

From reading articles on the blogs, Apple Retail employees sign NDAs as part of their orientation, before they actually start "real" work in the store.

Apple would need them to sign an NDA before they decide to leave.


Not if the employee chooses to leave with out notice. While thats not the best practice, there are people who do such a thing.

Plus, even if they did give notice, they do not have to sign it. Apple can't sue, because theres no law broken (yet) whats apple going to do? Have steve jobs lock the employee up and torture them in to signing it? please

[La Porta]

I can bet you the microsoft store, unlike the apple store will help people who have a minor issue right away.

My macbook enter key poped off and I went to the apple store for them to fix it and they wanted me to wait 3 hours. I said I'll just go to the Mac Store (a local authorized apple retailer) and the dumb girl said "they might not be authorized, blah blah blah and we aqre the only legal ones to do it.. I told her nope they ARE authorized and even went to a mac and went to the mac stores website to prove it and she got all pissy and stormed off. .

I went to the mac store, they fixed it in like what? 5 seconds? I was out by the time this woman exited starbucks and walk in the mac store (the starbucks is like 12 feet from the mac store) Had lunch at Chipotle Mexican Grail and went on my day

That honestly sounds more like a pissy girl issue than anything else. Those are quite common in most aspects of life, not just Mac repair.

[Target362]

Well, according to Apple's EULA, running OSX on a non-apple branded computer is illegal.
So I don't get why you would ask that.


He didnt say OSX now did he. He said mac software. Could be anything. Quicktime, itunes, Saffari, ilife, iwork etc.

or even 3rd party mac software.

FWIW, Apple Retail employees sign NDAs as part of their orientation, before they actually start "real" work in the store.

your source? I believe you are right (makes logic sense) but unless you provide a source, its just talk

[Target362]

That honestly sounds more like a pissy girl issue than anything else. Those are quite common in most aspects of life, not just Mac repair.

PMS? :p

na, this one store seems to have management and team member issues. Some are real great, others just pairaiord. (I know not all apple stores are like that, so before you say that, just know I already know :) )

[aristobrat]

From my 19 years of life so far I had two jobs. first was Mcdonalds, which was a dud. My store's management sucked and they offered their crew no benefits (only management got that)

My second and current one is Target. I'm making $8.75 (as opsoed to under $8.40 of the current Min. Wadge. (I left mcdonalds before min wadge went up to 8.40) an hour PUSHING CARTS. (AKA manual labor) I worked labor day and got time and a half. Been pulling in close to $450 and more every two weeks as opposed to 150-250 when i worked at Mcdonalds.
FWIW, the 35¢/hour extra you make at Target vs McDonald's (had you stayed) would have only increased your paycheck by $28 every two weeks (assuming you worked the same amount of hours at both places).

What sucks about McDonald's is that the vast majority of them are independently franchised, which essentially makes them "small businesses", which seem to be the worst at being able to give decent benefits to the employees.

Huge employers, like Target, Walmart, Starbucks are in an entirely different ballgame.

Glad you've found something that works for you. :)

[aristobrat]

your source? I believe you are right (makes logic sense) but unless you provide a source, its just talk
Like a bunch of folks here, I've worked for Apple Retail. (And McDonald's, both McOpCo and franchised) No Target, although if I need another PT job, they're pretty high on the list. :)

[La Porta]

PMS? :p

na, this one store seems to have management and team member issues. Some are real great, others just pairaiord. (I know not all apple stores are like that, so before you say that, just know I already know :) )

Oh, I'm sure you do! For example, last weekend I totally just shot the s*** with one guy for a good 30 minutes after a "theoretical" question of how I would be able to connect two of the new 24" screens to a Mac Pro IF I decided to buy one in the future. Heck, he proceeded to ask "honestly, do you really need all that? What is it you do?"

Those are the best salesmen in my opinion...like the guy who sold me my Mustang, asked me "do you REALLY need a GT?" Not pushing things on me is an almost surefire way to get me to do business with someone. Apple's employees seem to have always done that for me. In fact, I think that some of them are Apple's greatest asset on the front lines.

[MH01]

Cool.
I'm switching to Windows the day MS opens a store in Denmark. My first question at the WindowsGuruBar will be "How do I run Mac software on my PC?"

He will probably tell you to hackintosh it ;)

BTW, its not him that looks dumb when you pop that question....

[Target362]

FWIW, the 35¢/hour extra you make at Target vs McDonald's (had you stayed) would have only increased your paycheck by $28 every two weeks (assuming you worked the same amount of hours at both places).

What sucks about McDonald's is that the vast majority of them are independently franchised, which essentially makes them "small businesses", which seem to be the worst at being able to give decent benefits to the employees.

Huge employers, like Target, Walmart, Starbucks are in an entirely different ballgame.

Glad you've found something that works for you. :)

I left Mcdonalds in December 2008, I stated at $7.75 back in July 2007, went up to $7.95 a year later. (took me a bit to remember)

I was unemployed till April of this year. (I got unemployed right when we went in to the recession)

Also keep in mind at Mcdonalds I didnt get enough hours, or most of my hours were 3-4 hour shifts. If it was slow, they sent me home, hence even more shorter hours/paycheclTarget most of mine are 4-8 hours, (mcdonalds was flip flop. Some weeks I wasnt even on the schugle)

I work 5 days. (weekdays, 2-6 or 2-10:15pm. Only Cart attendent that can work days. We are down too 3 and the other two are still in school.

and yes the one I worked for was a franchise, and the owner was nice, but the overseer supervisor was just as an idiot as my mangement was.

At Target we get paied time and a half if we work on a holiday. thats good :)

[peepboon]

Lol... no one is that loyal... if I were offered a significantly increased salary I would take it without thought... think about it, that extra ¢¢¢ will make such a difference in your life.

It also would depend on the working conditions, I never worked for Apple so I am not too sure how they treat the staff but if MS will treat staff the same or even better then why not?

Only downfall which I can think of is what if MS' stores fail? jobless? :S

[Target362]

Oh, I'm sure you do! For example, last weekend I totally just shot the s*** with one guy for a good 30 minutes after a "theoretical" question of how I would be able to connect two of the new 24" screens to a Mac Pro IF I decided to buy one in the future. Heck, he proceeded to ask "honestly, do you really need all that? What is it you do?"

Those are the best salesmen in my opinion...like the guy who sold me my Mustang, asked me "do you REALLY need a GT?" Not pushing things on me is an almost surefire way to get me to do business with someone. Apple's employees seem to have always done that for me. In fact, I think that some of them are Apple's greatest asset on the front lines.

but think about it. Why would you ask that question if you wern't going to do it. By asking that question your sure your going to be buying two of the 24" LCDs.

I admit I HATE pushy salesmen, but if they don't push how can they make a sale.

Whats worse if when another customer gets involved. Last week we lost $2000 in sales because a dumb idiot over in electronics (a fellow co-worker!) deciced to stick her big nose in and said that "i never heard of Vizio thats a cheep brand. So our guest decicded NOT to get the TV and the guest behind her was going to also get the TV but deciced not to...

[Target362]

Lol... no one is that loyal... if I were offered a significantly increased salary I would take it without thought... think about it, that extra ¢¢¢ will make such a difference in your life.

It also would depend on the working conditions, I never worked for Apple so I am not too sure how they treat the staff but if MS will treat staff the same or even better then why not?

Only downfall which I can think of is what if MS' stores fail? jobless? :S

They might, they might not. To early to tell.

I thnk the general concept is good. few ideas are rough around the edges, but the over all plan sounds exciting.

only question is, will they wear bright color tops with a white thingy hanging around their necks and have PDAS (or PDTS) to ring up orders. Hope not. I do not need some kid or hacker to be over looking their shoulder while they input my credit/debit card number (one thing I do not like about the apple store)

[ratGT]

The Excuse Bar, Office, basically a Best Buy with MS crap.

The Excuse Bar - Ha ha ha ha ha ha... GOLDEN!!! So true!!!...

[MH01]

Oh, I'm sure you do! For example, last weekend I totally just shot the s*** with one guy for a good 30 minutes after a "theoretical" question of how I would be able to connect two of the new 24" screens to a Mac Pro IF I decided to buy one in the future. Heck, he proceeded to ask "honestly, do you really need all that? What is it you do?"

Those are the best salesmen in my opinion...like the guy who sold me my Mustang, asked me "do you REALLY need a GT?" Not pushing things on me is an almost surefire way to get me to do business with someone. Apple's employees seem to have always done that for me. In fact, I think that some of them are Apple's greatest asset on the front lines.

Really, so how exactly do you connect two of the new 24" screens to a Mac Pro??? Please explain? Given the NVIDIA GeForce GT 120 only has only 1 mini displayport? Are you sure they are the best salesmen??

[VenusianSky]

Cool.
I'm switching to Windows the day MS opens a store in Denmark. My first question at the WindowsGuruBar will be "How do I run Mac software on my PC?"

I'm sure their answer will be "you can't, unless it came with a Windows version installation disc". What are you expecting them to say?

You can't run a Mac OS X virtual machine on Windows, can you?

[seashellz]

it show just what a bunch of CLUELESS old farts they are
I postulate ALL their stores shuttered due to no traffic by this time next year or say by Jan 2011

Microsoft is totally irrelevant in the 21st Century

[aristobrat]

I do not need some kid or hacker to be over looking their shoulder while they input my credit/debit card number (one thing I do not like about the apple store)
Are you talking about when your card doesn't swipe, and they have to type all 16-digits in twice, manually?

I admit I HATE pushy salesmen, but if they don't push how can they make a sale.
They don't get a commission or spiff based on the sale, so there's no financial incentive for the employees to push anything.

At some stores, raises/promotions seem to factor around the side-things that are sold with some products (MobileMe, AppleCare, One-to-One), but any employee that is being pushy on selling the main device is likely to get crapped on if he also tries to push a side-thing to go along with it. Nobody likes push. At the store I worked at, they hired a few CompUSA employees when it went under. They didn't last very long, as "push" was ingrained into them.

[macshill]

Ahhhhh, so many typical fanboy comments here ("get your own ideas"). Nice. :rolleyes:

I'll remember this when the iPhone uses an OLED screen or outputs HD or adds an FM tuner to the Touch. ;)

Of course, it's always a one-way street when it comes to companies stealing ideas... just so long as the company doing the stealing is Apple. :confused:

[jawporta]

I love apple but it's a free market. It's about time the working stiff had a chance to make some more money. I'm going where the money is, retail is all the same anyway, might as well make as much money as I can. 90% of the customers at the Apple store are window's users anyway.

[olternaut]

Poaching staff is same thing as stealing staff. Apple can have them sign NDAs before they leave as a precaution to protect Apple trade secrets and as a warning to MS.

This move means Microsoft is really desperate.

Desperate? Ehhhhhh.....no not really.

More Ruthless? You bet!

EDIT: In my opinion, if Apple wants to minimize retail store employee defections they'd better pay up.

[*LTD*]

Ahhhhh, so many typical fanboy comments here ("get your own ideas"). Nice. :rolleyes:

I'll remember this when the iPhone uses an OLED screen or outputs HD or adds an FM tuner to the Touch. ;)

Of course, it's always a one-way street when it comes to companies stealing ideas... just so long as the company doing the stealing is Apple. :confused:

The problem isn't neessarily that MS is following, but that they're being so damn obvious about it.

You'd think that with an R&D budget twice the size of Apple's, with twice the workforce, MS would at least make an attempt to go in some novel directions instead of waiting for Apple's "next big thing." MS has some serious image issues, and this isn't helping.

iPod? We'd better release something too (a few years too late.) iPod Touch? We'd better hurry up and fix our Zune (don't forget that capacitive touch screen with cool effects.) iPhone? We'd better redesign WinMo to get as close to the iPhone's OS as possible . . . and on and on.

And now with the tablet, apparently.

MS has all the experience needed in the consumer sphere, but none of the necessary savvy to keep up.

Part of the problen is that they're a corporate/enterprise software vendor masquerading as a home/consumer vendor.

[La Porta]

Really, so how exactly do you connect two of the new 24" screens to a Mac Pro??? Please explain? Given the NVIDIA GeForce GT 120 only has only 1 mini displayport? Are you sure they are the best salesmen??

From the Apple website (and him), you need two of the cards at once in order to drive the two screens. It would be different if you had two DVI screens. The DVI can't drive a MiniDisplay, but a MiniDisplay can drive DVI via an adaptor. The card has one of each. Even the high end ATI can't do it: you would need the high end and one NVIDIA to pull off the dual 24"

[synth3tik]

When I think of a MS retail store I think of the Gateway Country stores that lasted what 7 months.

[neiltc13]

The problem isn't neessarily that MS is following, but that they're being so damn obvious about it.

You'd think that with an R&D budget twice the size of Apple's, with twice the workforce, MS would at least make an attempt to go in some novel directions instead of waiting for Apple's "next big thing." MS has some serious image issues, and this isn't helping.

iPod? We'd better release something too (a few years too late.) iPod Touch? We'd better hurry up and fix our Zune (don't forget that capacitive touch screen with cool effects.) iPhone? We'd better redesign WinMo to get as close to the iPhone's OS as possible . . . and on and on.

And now with the tablet, apparently.

MS has all the experience needed in the consumer sphere, but none of the necessary savvy to keep up.

Part of the problen is that they're a corporate/enterprise software vendor masquerading as a home/consumer vendor.

Your argument would be fine if Apple were the first to do any of the things you mention. However, MP3 players were on the market for a long time before Apple released its first iPod and Apple certainly wasn't the first company to add a touch screen interface to a media player or a phone.

It makes me laugh when I read comments claiming Microsoft is "copying" Apple's idea of the App Store. People who say this clearly haven't heard of XNA, which Microsoft pioneered a couple of years before Apple introduced the iPhone SDK, and it allowed developers to create games for Xbox 360 and Windows and gave them all the tools they needed completely free. The developer then sets the price, the game or application goes on sale... sound familiar?

As for tablets, Microsoft beat Apple to that several years ago.

[InTheUnion]

But how many people work at Levi's because they WANT to work there? How passionate are they in selling Levi's products? How much do they care about the company as a brand, a philosophy? It's that type of passion that Apple looks for in their retail staff. If an Apple employee doesn't have it, they'll take the job at Microsoft.

So then that means this is actually helping Apple? :p

[Target362]

it show just what a bunch of CLUELESS old farts they are
I postulate ALL their stores shuttered due to no traffic by this time next year or say by Jan 2011

Microsoft is totally irrelevant in the 21st Century

no traffic? IUf there was no traffic they would be closed by the first week. but thats not going to happen.

Are you talking about when your card doesn't swipe, and they have to type all 16-digits in twice, manually?


They don't get a commission or spiff based on the sale, so there's no financial incentive for the employees to push anything.

both

You must not work in Retail then. My store, out of the 100 or so stores in our district we do the best in sales and even service (theres a chart near the break room that shows all the sales in the district and my store actually does the best with a few others close enough)

Making a sale does not mean you work commission. Its all about making a sale for apple or in general the company you work for.

and there is an incentive,. More sales they make, the more hours they have, the better the paycheck. (thats what our leaders (managers) say to us all the time. ( "Team members, lets help make our sales by stepping out and asking our guests can I help you find something") With out sales, the store will suffer, and could eventually shut down. (does not mean apple will shut down just the store that has low sales. Why run a store if no one is buying from it? Its just wastes money keeping a store running like that if no one is buying from the,

At some stores, raises/promotions seem to factor around the side-things that are sold with some products (MobileMe, AppleCare, One-to-One), but any employee that is being pushy on selling the main device is likely to get crapped on if he also tries to push a side-thing to go along with it. Nobody likes push. At the store I worked at, they hired a few CompUSA employees when it went under. They didn't last very long, as "push" was ingrained into them.

I didn't say anything about raises or promotions. I'm just stating a fact because I work in retal, and the apple stores are retail

[RazHyena]

I'm not saying I love the HD, I'm not saying it's a guaranteed success. But competition is a very good thing, and with the recent lackluster iPT updates I'd say Apple needs some fire under their butt to start doing something interesting.

+1

I'm waiting for something REALLY interesting and different to come from Apple. An entirely new looking iMac lineup or something. Enough of these "speedbumps."

[*LTD*]

Your argument would be fine if Apple were the first to do any of the things you mention. However, MP3 players were on the market for a long time before Apple released its first iPod and Apple certainly wasn't the first company to add a touch screen interface to a media player or a phone.


Given Apple's implementations of each, mp3s and smartphones might as well not even have existed before the iPod and the iPhone. The iPhone refashioned the mobile telephony industry (aside from handhelds in general) overnight. And before the iPod? The mp3 player Dark Ages.

Apple is the one to usually step in and fix everyone's broken "firsts" and poorly implemented "firsts."

The "tablet" concept is next.

[Target362]

What about an actual TV? With the Apple TV features built in? The TV can connect to the internet you you'll have widgets just like on the mac for weather, sports updates, RSS feeds and more.

[Rodimus Prime]

Given Apple's implementations of each, mp3s and smartphones might as well not even have existed before the iPod and the iPhone. The iPhone refashioned the mobile telephony industry (aside from handhelds in general) overnight. And before the iPod? The mp3 player Dark Ages.

Apple is the one to usually step in and fix everyone's broken "firsts" and poorly implemented "firsts."

The "tablet" concept is next.

You really are blind by Apple's RDF arent you. Apple's iPhone was not game changing to the cell phone market. The iPhone was NOT the first touch screen phone. the iPhone did not bring the smart phone to the masses.

What apple did was time the iPhone really well. The iPhone was released about the time smart phones were starting to go to the masses and leaving the business/ Geek world.
no you seem to think apple was game changing. It was just damn good timing.

The same way with MP3 players. Apple released the iPod to the masses at about the time MP3 players started taking off. Everyone was trying to figure out a good Harddrive based MP3. Apple justed used it fame and timed it really well and it worked. It set a standard.

Please lose the apple RDF and see the truth.... Oh way you cannt you are to blind to see the truth.

[*LTD*]

You really are blind by Apple's RDF arent you. Apple's iPhone was not game changing to the cell phone market. The iPhone was NOT the first touch screen phone. the iPhone did not bring the smart phone to the masses.


You mean the ancient pre-iPhone stylus touchscreen?

A single device by a company with little to no experience in the industry and against all odds caused a tidal wave of change.

Change didn’t come because of Nokia, Microsoft, Sony Ericsson, Samsung, RIM or any other player in the market for the past 15 years. Android and webOS weren’t there before the iPhone.

Game-changing? That's putting it mildly.

[Target362]

You mean the ancient pre-iPhone stylus touchscreen?

A single device by a company with little to no experience in the industry and against all odds caused a tidal wave of change.

Change didn’t come because of Nokia, Microsoft, Sony Ericsson, Samsung, RIM or any other player in the market for the past 15 years. Android and webOS weren’t there before the iPhone.

Game-changing? That's putting it mildly.

better watch the ipod intoduction again

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kN0SVBCJqLs

as well as the first ever iphone intro

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rp-rbC__JtY&feature=PlayList&p=C9348F95CC3C04AF&index=0

[edoates]

I have nothing to say...



They should make an effort to find their own staff, not poach employees from Apple!

It's not poaching: employees should work for the employer that offers them the best deal: pay, benefits, hours, working conditions, job satisfaction, etc. All MS is doing is saying, "Come to work for us, and we offer you X that we think is an improvement over Apples Y package." If an employee thinks X > Y, he should change jobs (he should consider the totality of X and Y!).

Remember that if sales fall in an Apple retail store, it is unlikely Apple would show extreme loyalty: they'd have a layoff like everyone else. MS is not different.

MS is looking for the best qualified employees. And if Apple employees are able to create a successful retail experience, I'd want to hire them, too!

[RebootD]

Because Apple NEVER poaches from other companies? http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2008/11/04papermaster.html

The fact this is 'news' is a joke. Every company does this from sales staff to VP positions.

And really a NDA? For minimum wage staff? Seriously?

[Target362]

It's not poaching: employees should work for the employer that offers them the best deal: pay, benefits, hours, working conditions, job satisfaction, etc. All MS is doing is saying, "Come to work for us, and we offer you X that we think is an improvement over Apples Y package." If an employee thinks X > Y, he should change jobs (he should consider the totality of X and Y!).

Remember that if sales fall in an Apple retail store, it is unlikely Apple would show extreme loyalty: they'd have a layoff like everyone else. MS is not different.

MS is looking for the best qualified employees. And if Apple employees are able to create a successful retail experience, I'd want to hire them, too!

couldn't agree more :cool:

[Rodimus Prime]

You mean the ancient pre-iPhone stylus touchscreen?

A single device by a company with little to no experience in the industry and against all odds caused a tidal wave of change.

Change didn’t come because of Nokia, Microsoft, Sony Ericsson, Samsung, RIM or any other player in the market for the past 15 years. Android and webOS weren’t there before the iPhone.

Game-changing? That's putting it mildly.

Wow you clearly do not understand the smart phone market do you.

When Apple released the iPhone smart phones were starting to take off. They just timed it with the Smart phone wave. Also there were touch screens that did not relay on a styal. Just back when the iPhone first came out multi-touch was still a brand new technology so again timing there of new tech.

The smart phones that started the change I would hand that credit to Samsung and Pantech. Samsung brought the Blackjack out in what 2002ish and you hand the Pnatech Duo which both were very popular phones. Not bad for to phones that lack the ablity to get media hype along with all the free advertising that hype brings with it.

RIM bread and better is still the same great designed dating back to the Curve 8300. The 8900, the Bold, Tour and now the Onyx all are based on that very nice designed.

The storm while a nice phone is not as well loved as the curve design.

One fact that has to be remember is apple always get lots of media hype. Apple could release dog crap paint it white and release it. It would recieve huge amount of hype and it saying how great it was. Strip away the media hype from the iPhone and you start seeing the real facts.

[elppa]

Wow. You sir need to get out more.

Ron Johnson - Pioneered Apple Retail and genius bar. Was recruited from Target where he was the Vice President of Merchandising.

Tim Cook - Recruited (in a rather ugly battle) from IBM

Didn't Tim come from Compaq?

One fact that has to be remember is apple always get lots of media hype. Apple could release dog crap paint it white and release it. It would recieve huge amount of hype and it saying how great it was. Strip away the media hype from the iPhone and you start seeing the real facts.

It's all the media's fault then? They cattle heard people through the doors of the retail stores, they forced people to sign AT&T contracts…

Really? You really believe this?

Why weren't they successful in getting people to buy G4 cubes and why Apple have as yet been unsuccessful with the Apple TV.

[bartzilla]

Oh yeah! I remember that now! Wasn't that back in like 1999? :D
Jesus, like everybody is saying, you have to get people who are passionate about your brand.
They're working there, not just for the money, but also because they like what they do.

Rubbish. I'm very lucky to have a good job doing something I love, I'm extremely passionate about doing a good job and corny as it sounds "making a difference", but believe me when I say that if I won big time on the lottery this weekend I'd totally quit monday morning. Sane people work to live, they don't live to work. If we're lucky we get to work at something we enjoy, but we have to work at something.

[BENI]

Rubbish. I'm very lucky to have a good job doing something I love, I'm extremely passionate about doing a good job and corny as it sounds "making a difference", but believe me when I say that if I won big time on the lottery this weekend I'd totally quit monday morning. Sane people work to live, they don't live to work. If we're lucky we get to work at something we enjoy, but we have to work at something.

I see what you mean, but how is working for Microsoft comparable to winning the lottery?

[Kabeyun]

I hope they do get a big raise; they're going to need it when they're out of a job in a year or two.

-K

[CQd44]

What's this? Microsoft searching for employees with experience in retail? Say it isn't so! o:

[Target362]

What's this? Microsoft searching for employees with experience in retail? Say it isn't so! o:

,may be because apple has done so well, they want tips

I hope they do get a big raise; they're going to need it when they're out of a job in a year or two.

-K


say that again in a year or two when they are doing a fine job and at the same line as apple was in its first and second year of having a retial store.

Rubbish. I'm very lucky to have a good job doing something I love, I'm extremely passionate about doing a good job and corny as it sounds "making a difference", but believe me when I say that if I won big time on the lottery this weekend I'd totally quit monday morning. Sane people work to live, they don't live to work. If we're lucky we get to work at something we enjoy, but we have to work at something.

We work to get the things we enjoy. Yes, most of us have to pay bills first, but most of us here work for we can buy those apple products we seem to be all obessed with after those bills are paied off. With out a job, how can we get them.

[aristobrat]

And really a NDA? For minimum wage staff? Seriously?
I know that minimum wage varies a lot by city/state, but when I started there part-time awhile ago, part-timers started at a little more than 2x the minimum wage, and full-timers got benefits + a quite a bit more than part-timers. Regardless of the wage, all employees had varying access to Apple proprietorial information, thus the NDA. Make sense?

[Target362]

its like with me at Target do you think I know everything thats going on? No. I don't know where new stores are going to be poping up, new items, new products or changes with in the compney.

just because you work for a compney does not mean you know or need to know everything

[SeattleMoose]

A decent manager selling great products may look like and perform like a great manager.

However, when the same manager is lured away to sell crap, he will look like a bozo selling crap.

Uh, good luck with that!!!

A shiny wrapper on a turd cannot hide the fact that it is a....brown Zune.:p

[kdarling]

What's this? Microsoft searching for employees with experience in retail? Say it isn't so! o:

And especially experience with Apple-style retail, if the story is to be believed.

Hmmm.

Maybe Microsoft is planning on selling last year's hardware, with a surfacely stylish design, and flashy but crippled UI, at prices double their actual value, in order to fill their coffers with money that stockholders will never see?

Aha. NOW it all makes sense!

:D

Seriously, anyone who's worked knows that people leave their jobs for better (and/or better paying) jobs all the time. And yeah, the new store in town always tries to get people from their competitors.

[Target362]

A decent manager selling great products may look like and perform like a great manager.

However, when the same manager is lured away to sell crap, he will look like a bozo selling crap.

Uh, good luck with that!!!


None of that makes sense.

[Target362]

Seriously, anyone who's worked knows that people leave their jobs for better (and/or better paying) jobs all the time. And yeah, the new store in town always tries to get people from their competitors.

<cough> Walmart </cough>

(been my opinion long before I started working at Target)

[MorphingDragon]

better watch the ipod intoduction again

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kN0SVBCJqLs

as well as the first ever iphone intro

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rp-rbC__JtY&feature=PlayList&p=C9348F95CC3C04AF&index=0

So...

Whats your point?

[Mattie Num Nums]

Didn't Tim come from Compaq?




"Cook also spent 12 years with IBM, most recently as director of North American Fulfillment where he led manufacturing and distribution functions for IBM’s Personal Computer Company in North and Latin America. "

Courtesy of Apple.com

[Target362]

So...

Whats your point?

Read the posts before that, rather just come in the thread and see a post and respond. Sometimes the answers are right in front of you

[Mattie Num Nums]

You mean the ancient pre-iPhone stylus touchscreen?

A single device by a company with little to no experience in the industry and against all odds caused a tidal wave of change.

Change didn’t come because of Nokia, Microsoft, Sony Ericsson, Samsung, RIM or any other player in the market for the past 15 years. Android and webOS weren’t there before the iPhone.

Game-changing? That's putting it mildly.

You're something else. You have no idea how the world works. Apple didn't change anything. Apple took ideas that were already their and made it hip and cool. Appstores were around before Apples, Smartphones were around before Apples, in fact if anything we owe our thanks to the people who kept Unix alive and well. Without them, there would be no OSX, and Apple would be back to its god aweful OS9 days. Get of the Apple high horse because its a long fall.

[Target362]

You're something else. You have no idea how the world works. Apple didn't change anything. Apple took ideas that were already their and made it hip and cool. Appstores were around before Apples, Smartphones were around before Apples, in fact if anything we owe our thanks to the people who kept Unix alive and well. Without them, there would be no OSX, and Apple would be back to its god aweful OS9 days. Get of the Apple high horse because its a long fall.

Apple stated in the keynote that I posted few posts up that there were other smart phones, but they "were harder to use, and had plastic keyboards that bwere there weather or not you used them"

same with the ipod.

So theres your answer MorphingDragon. Those keynotes that I posted provide answers to what is said in this post.

Sad I had to actully tell you instead of you figuring it out on your own

[Mattie Num Nums]

Apple stated in the keynote that I posted few posts up that there were other smart phones, but they "were harder to use, and had plastic keyboards that bwere there weather or not you used them"

same with the ipod.

So theres your answer MorphingDragon. Those keynotes that I posted provide answers to what is said in this post.

Sad I had to actully tell you instead of you figuring it out on your own

My reply was directed to LTD. You don't have to tell me I was with the Company when the iPhone was released (still have my and use my Apple provided phone.)

[Target362]

My reply was directed to LTD. You don't have to tell me I was with the Company when the iPhone was released (still have my and use my Apple provided phone.)

Chill out and re read my post. I was simply adding on to it. :rolleyes:

[*LTD*]

You're something else. You have no idea how the world works.

So how does the world work? Apple fixed the industry. It's that simple. They did to smartphones what they did to mp3 players.

Apple didn't just make smartphones "hip" and "cool." Apple made them usable, powerful, and relevant. We can get into an infinite regression and go back to the horse and buggy, if you like. But really, the reason we have HTC devices running Android is because of Apple. The reason we have the Pre is because of Apple. The reason we have capacitive touchscreen as the new standard is because of Apple. The reason MS went back to the drawing board with WinMo is beacuse of Apple. The reason we actually have a usable App Store that people want to develop for is because of Apple. The reason we're enjoying rich multimeida content on smartphones today (and some stlll can't manage it) is because of Apple.

Compare the smartphone industry pre-iPhone to post-iPhone. There's a galaxy of difference. And no, I don't buy the "we were were moving in that direction anyway" argument. It took Apple to show everyone the way, and some *still* can't get their act together. At best, the indusrty was stumbling toward more button-festooned, bad-screened, stylus-based devices with horrible OSes.

[aristobrat]

You're something else. You have no idea how the world works. Apple didn't change anything. Apple took ideas that were already their and made it hip and cool.
Taking something that's not used because it isn't hip and cool, and making it hip and cool so that it's used, ... is making a change to something.

What's the point of being first with an app store, or first with a smartphone, or first with Unix, ... if the vast majority of people have no interest in using your product?

There's something to be said for the brainiacs that develop new technology. And there's something else to be said for people that can take that new technology and make it so that people want to use it. The world needs both types of people, IMO.

[LOLaMac]

FWIW, Apple Retail employees sign NDAs as part of their orientation, before they actually start "real" work in the store.

An NDA for what? For where they keep the broom and dustpan? Seriously, these people that work at Apple stores are not working in the lab designing iPhones and Mac Pros, they're being paid (probably) poorly to sell Apple products; I don't think they need to sign an NDA to ring up purchases.

And on another note, what is with all the posters in this thread thinking people work in an Apple store because they are "passionate" about Apple and "love their favorite fruit company." It's a retail job for cryin' out loud, I would put good odds on most people working at Apple stores because it's "cool" or close to home, not because they are so in love with Apple. Am I to infer then that everyone who works at Bestbuy does so because they are "passionate" about Bestbuy? And Safeway, too? And Walmart?

[bartzilla]

I see what you mean, but how is working for Microsoft comparable to winning the lottery?

I certainly wasn't intending on comparing working with/for Microsoft with winning the lottery. Admittedly I only have knowledge of what one of those things is like, but I'm still comfortable with the idea that it isn't much like the other.

Sorry if I wasn't making myself clear, I was referring to the thing of "working to live, not living to work". If I became independantly wealthy and didn't need to work any more then I wouldn't do so, no matter how much I enjoy the work I do. The same applies to the idea that you're wed to working for one company or the other... I want to be well paid. If I can double my wages elsewhere I'm going to at least go and take a look no matter how much I like what I do now... Wouldn't you?

[Rodimus Prime]

Compare the smartphone industry pre-iPhone to post-iPhone. There's a galaxy of difference. And no, I don't buy the "we were were moving in that direction anyway" argument. It took Apple to show everyone the way, and some *still* can't get their act together. At best, the indusrty was stumbling toward more button-festooned, bad-screened, stylus-based devices with horrible OSes.


Then you care to explain why RIM OS has not made huge changes since BEFORE the iphone came out. There current bread and butter phone design (curve 83xx) dates back to before the first Iphone anouncement. (Not Stylus based) Even in there upcoming OS 5.0 they are not making huge changes from that set up. Hmm kills that argument there. Yet those same Blackberries are becoming more popular along with the Smart Phone wave.

You are an apple fanboy to your core and to blind to see the truth. I noticed you when people point out the logic where you are wrong you either just pay no attention to it or you pick and choose. That or you degrade to insults.

Some times I find the fanboys worse than the tolls.

[*LTD*]

Then you care to explain why RIM OS has not made huge changes since BEFORE the iphone came out. There current bread and butter phone design (curve 83xx) dates back to before the first Iphone anouncement. (Not Stylus based) Even in there upcoming OS 5.0 they are not making huge changes from that set up. Hmm kills that argument there. Yet those same Blackberries are becoming more popular along with the Smart Phone wave.

You are an apple fanboy to your core and to blind to see the truth. I noticed you when people point out the logic where you are wrong you either just pay no attention to it or you pick and choose. That or you degrade to insults.

Some times I find the fanboys worse than the tolls.

RIM sells to the Enterprise sector. It's what that sector wants. It's the reason RIM is in business. However, it lacks the consumer-oriented features of the iPhone. It's a great corporate e-mail machine, an excellent texter as well. And not a whole lot more.

Which is the reason RIM hasn't changed, but everyone else has. It's pretty simple, really.

And speaking of insults . . .

[aristobrat]

An NDA for what? For where they keep the broom and dustpan? Seriously, these people that work at Apple stores are not working in the lab designing iPhones and Mac Pros, they're being paid (probably) poorly to sell Apple products; I don't think they need to sign an NDA to ring up purchases.
Ironically enough, the wireless PDA system that employees use to ring up purchases is just one of the systems that Apple uses to set itself apart from the rest of the retail market (and considers proprietorial).

[The Monkey]

Let's put the NDA/non-compete stuff to rest. Even if retail employees are signing these things, no court is going to enforce them to the extent they prevent such employees from working at another job (which should come as a relief to most of the posters on this board). Courts are loathe to do this with executives much less minimum wage workers, so this is a non-issue.

[Maserati7200]

ok... who cares? All it shows is that Microsoft feels threatened by Apple, which is silly considering that they still have ~90% market share, and that Apple does not make any computer under $600.

Jai Ho

[cretony38]

The Zune, the Mobile initiative, the retail stores are all fighting brands. They are designed to weaken a competitor.

As an example, some years ago Coke introduced "Mr. Pibb" a Dr. Pepper taste alike in Dr. Pepper's home town, Waco, TX.

So what youre saying is MS is Mr. Pibb to Apple's Dr. Pepper?

Thats funny.

I'm gonna go down to MS "Ned Flanders Leftorium" to laugh at the empty isles

[RazHyena]

ok... who cares? All it shows is that Microsoft feels threatened by Apple, which is silly considering that they still have ~90% market share, and that Apple does not make any computer under $600.

Jai Ho

Threatened? Hardly.

Business as usual? Yup.

This isn't new, people. It happens in almost every industry. From computer companies to retail stores. Each trying to get a leg up over the competition by luring away human talent. MS is indeed being a little more direct than normal, but hey, that's MS. I was once a manager for a bakery, and a week before a competitor opened it's doors, I received a nice little phone call from the new store's director with an offer for employment. So did a lot of my other coworkers.

Big deal. This really happens in the real world. Oh yeah, and why is this news? Deliciously evil of Microsoft but still...

[MH01]

From the Apple website (and him), you need two of the cards at once in order to drive the two screens. It would be different if you had two DVI screens. The DVI can't drive a MiniDisplay, but a MiniDisplay can drive DVI via an adaptor. The card has one of each. Even the high end ATI can't do it: you would need the high end and one NVIDIA to pull off the dual 24"

Thats what i wanted to know, if he knew you needed two cards (which is a joke!). When i got my 24" screen all the sales staff were sure the screen would also work with a PC via an adapter. The case gets worse if you buy a 285

http://store.apple.com/uk/product/TW387ZM/A

You cannot use the 24" at all.

Almost a year after the 24" has come out, you will finally be able to use this screen via a ATI 5870 (has 6x mini display port). From a user experience point of view the 24" is a horrible experience :(

As a salesman I would feel like a dick trying to explain to a customer that they need two graphic cards to use 2x screens. Using 2x24 screens is quite handy, especially if you doing video editing

[RebootD]

I know that minimum wage varies a lot by city/state, but when I started there part-time awhile ago, part-timers started at a little more than 2x the minimum wage, and full-timers got benefits + a quite a bit more than part-timers. Regardless of the wage, all employees had varying access to Apple proprietorial information, thus the NDA. Make sense?

Still not buying it. I used min wage as an example (since most of the employees at my store are university-age students) but anyway what 'proprietorial information' would the average 'genius' know that would be detrimental to Apple if, God-forbid, they left? How many faulty iPods come back? Swap out a HD or add ram?

Perhaps someone at the Regional level, but I highly doubt the store level.

[MH01]

I hope they do get a big raise; they're going to need it when they're out of a job in a year or two.

-K

Have you every seen an Apple employee who has been in the apple store for longer then a year? I hope these people are motivated enough to only use the sales gig to get a better job.

[MH01]

Ironically enough, the wireless PDA system that employees use to ring up purchases is just one of the systems that Apple uses to set itself apart from the rest of the retail market (and considers proprietorial).

Is that not windows CE-based PDA? Hardly a secret

[n459umb4786ers]

I'd be LMAO when I pass by Microsoft's future retail stores and all I see on the monitors is the BSOD!

[CQd44]

Thats what i wanted to know, if he knew you needed two cards (which is a joke!). When i got my 24" screen all the sales staff were sure the screen would also work with a PC via an adapter. The case gets worse if you buy a 285

http://store.apple.com/uk/product/TW387ZM/A

You cannot use the 24" at all.

Almost a year after the 24" has come out, you will finally be able to use this screen via a ATI 5870 (has 6x mini display port). From a user experience point of view the 24" is a horrible experience :(

As a salesman I would feel like a dick trying to explain to a customer that they need two graphic cards to use 2x screens. Using 2x24 screens is quite handy, especially if you doing video editing

It's too bad apple doesn't use DVI or HDMI. Or even VGA. You can get all sorts of adapters for those three ports.

[CQd44]

I'd be LMAO when I pass by Microsoft's future retail stores and all I see on the monitors is the BSOD!

I passed by an AT&T store and saw the iPhone display was flickering white and black. :rolleyes:

[*LTD*]

I passed by an AT&T store and saw the iPhone display was flickering white and black. :rolleyes:

never mind.

[CQd44]

It actually sounds funnier when it's about Windows, because that's what they're known for.

Just trying to say that no one's immune. :]

[*LTD*]

Just trying to say that no one's immune. :]

Gotcha. ;)

[cretony38]

ok... who cares? All it shows is that Microsoft feels threatened by Apple, which is silly considering that they still have ~90% market share, and that Apple does not make any computer under $600.

Jai Ho

I just bought a Mac Mini for around $500.
You dont want people to know what computer you have, but you list the name of a car as your screen name? Why didn't you call yourself Daewoo7200?

[MH01]

It actually sounds funnier when it's about Windows, because that's what they're known for.

To be honest, not for a long time now. I get more spinny beachballs in os x then BSOD. The last BSOD i had was on a macbook pro, and that was the black screen of death cause the GPU overheated due to bad fan management and shutdown. If you use old PC hardware with flacky drivers it is more common. The last PC BSOD I got was self induced by pushing a 2.66 to 4.5 mhz through overclocking.

[jmpage2]

What I find funny is that Ballmer has just recently said that Apple is not a threat, not even a little bit of one, and then we see a stunt like this, coupled with the millions of dollars of ads they run every month specifically targeting Apple as a direct competitor. In other words, Ballmer is a liar.

I think the reality is that even if MS is far ahead in Market Share they are lagging seriously behind in Mind Share.

The average PC user keeps their computer for something like 5-6 years. The problem that MS has is saturation. People that see XP as 'good enough' with no real compelling reason to upgrade to Windows 7 either in the form of a new box or as a software upgrade.

If Apple follows through with their promise from earlier this year to offer some less expensive options in the Macbook and iMac spaces it could really heat things up even more for the sector.

$799 22" redesigned iMac? $899 MBP? A lot of Windows users believe that Macs are better, and don't buy one simply because of the price. If Apple can get the price down a bit more and put their vampire bite on those people they can succeed in extracting dollars from their wallets for years to come.

I have many friends that have now made the switch to Mac. I have zero friends who have gone from a Mac to a PC.

[dba7dba]

Being an Apple fan is nice and all, but it doesn't put food on the table.

I'm sure the Apple Store Managers were able to put food on the table... What you think they were working at the Apple store for free?

[MH01]

I'm sure the Apple Store Managers were able to put food on the table... What you think they were working at the Apple store for free?

From reading this thread, that what we expect of them ;) Most important is that they love Apple and are really really passionate about it.

[CQd44]

To be honest, not for a long time now. I get more spinny beachballs in os x then BSOD. The last BSOD i had was on a macbook pro, and that was the black screen of death cause the GPU overheated due to bad fan management and shutdown. If you use old PC hardware with flacky drivers it is more common. The last PC BSOD I got was self induced by pushing a 2.66 to 4.5 mhz through overclocking.

MHz, huh? No wonder it crashed ;]

[jmpage2]

I'm sure the Apple Store Managers were able to put food on the table... What you think they were working at the Apple store for free?

From what others are saying in this thread, MS is supposedly offering them "double" what they are making at Apple.

This would be rather unheard of and I doubt it's even close to true.

The managers of most retail operations get a base salary and then with bonuses can make quite a bit more. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the median salary of an Apple store manager (the head cheese) was around $75,000 or so and then they can earn upwards of another $50,000 if they hit their numbers.

So, MS is going to offer them base salary of $150,000 and a $100,000 bonus? Highly unlikely.

MS is probably going to offer a larger base salary and smaller bonus, since there's almost no way that they are going to hit any big targets in the first year or two of operation.

[APPLENEWBIE]

One word:

MICROthought

[Khryz]

I can't wait to see Apple make fun of all of this non-sense in the next batch of Mac vs. PC adverts.

:D

[bruinsrme]

He didnt say OSX now did he. He said mac software. Could be anything. Quicktime, itunes, Saffari, ilife, iwork etc.

or even 3rd party mac software.



your source? I believe you are right (makes logic sense) but unless you provide a source, its just talk

You are correct. However, QuickTime, safari, and iTunes are not exclusive to Macs. So how do mac owners run programs that are exclusive to PCs? I can only assume by running windows. Same for mac software, one would need to be running an apple OS.
But unlike OSX, Windows can be loaded on macs without having to be hacked.
Please help me understand if macs OSes can run pc exclusive without windows?

[APPLENEWBIE]

Do you need to use it to know it's an ill-conceived, dead-end device?

Unless MS does a helluva lot more with it, it won't last very long. Apparently, we're being told it's not even competition for the iPod Touch. Which leaves it somewhere between "limited" and "pointless."

Lets have a look at the stuff that counts, shall we?
iPod Touch / Zune HD
GPS sort of (wifi) / no (apparently)
Radio no / yes
Audible Books yes / no
subscriptions no/ yes
Email yes / no
instant messaging yes / no
Calendar yes / no
maps yes / no
facebook/twitter yes / no
Apps 75000 / 9 or so
games 21000 / 7 or so
Screen 3.5 LCD / 3.3 OLED

[APPLENEWBIE]

Fewer than 10 Microsoft stores will open before they pull the plug.

Microsoft does not have a single marketing-savvy bone in it's corporate body. They got their marketshare not by marketing, but by limiting buyers' options with their exclusive deals with manufacturers...

[xIGmanIx]

So how does the world work? Apple fixed the industry. It's that simple. They did to smartphones what they did to mp3 players.

Apple didn't just make smartphones "hip" and "cool." Apple made them usable, powerful, and relevant. We can get into an infinite regression and go back to the horse and buggy, if you like. But really, the reason we have HTC devices running Android is because of Apple. The reason we have the Pre is because of Apple. The reason we have capacitive touchscreen as the new standard is because of Apple. The reason MS went back to the drawing board with WinMo is beacuse of Apple. The reason we actually have a usable App Store that people want to develop for is because of Apple. The reason we're enjoying rich multimeida content on smartphones today (and some stlll can't manage it) is because of Apple.

Compare the smartphone industry pre-iPhone to post-iPhone. There's a galaxy of difference. And no, I don't buy the "we were were moving in that direction anyway" argument. It took Apple to show everyone the way, and some *still* can't get their act together. At best, the indusrty was stumbling toward more button-festooned, bad-screened, stylus-based devices with horrible OSes.

There have been too many mistakes on apples part to even list to say they "did to smart phones what they did to MP3 players" does that mean that they bought an already existing IP? The iPhone until it steps up corporate support is still going to be a media phone. BB's beat iPhone sales alone hand over fist and they own the business sector.

[APPLENEWBIE]

So how does the world work? Apple fixed the industry. It's that simple. They did to smartphones what they did to mp3 players.

Apple didn't just make smartphones "hip" and "cool." Apple made them usable, powerful, and relevant. We can get into an infinite regression and go back to the horse and buggy, if you like. But really, the reason we have HTC devices running Android is because of Apple. The reason we have the Pre is because of Apple. The reason we have capacitive touchscreen as the new standard is because of Apple. The reason MS went back to the drawing board with WinMo is beacuse of Apple. The reason we actually have a usable App Store that people want to develop for is because of Apple. The reason we're enjoying rich multimeida content on smartphones today (and some stlll can't manage it) is because of Apple.

Compare the smartphone industry pre-iPhone to post-iPhone. There's a galaxy of difference. And no, I don't buy the "we were were moving in that direction anyway" argument. It took Apple to show everyone the way, and some *still* can't get their act together. At best, the indusrty was stumbling toward more button-festooned, bad-screened, stylus-based devices with horrible OSes.

uh... BINGO!:)

[APPLENEWBIE]

There have been too many mistakes on apples part to even list to say they "did to smart phones what they did to MP3 players" does that mean that they bought an already existing IP? The iPhone until it steps up corporate support is still going to be a media phone. BB's beat iPhone sales alone hand over fist and they own the business sector.

OK then... please list all those mistakes so that we might be edified.

[xIGmanIx]

OK then... please list all those mistakes so that we might be edified.

Edit: On second thought, if you think the iPhone software for business users is flawless, then there is no point in discussing it with you.

[ob81]

Well, microsoft is probably trying too hard. They really don't need ex-apple employees to have a successful run at having stores. It is getting pretty childish at this point. They are doing things out of spite. Hire other techs and managers in the community looking for jobs. NOT people that already have jobs.

[joueboy]

thank goodness they are taking people from best buys!

[aristobrat]

Is that not windows CE-based PDA? Hardly a secret
If you're a competitor looking to implement a similar system (without having to do all of the legwork yourself) only knowing that it's Windows CE doesn't exactly give you much of a headstart. :confused:

Edit: On second thought, if you think the iPhone software for business users is flawless, then there is no point in discussing it with you.
I thought the iPhone was about Apple getting consumers to adopt smartphones, something consumers weren't doing in droves prior.

iPhones are about as perfect of a business solution as BlackBerrys are as perfect of a multimedia consumer solution.

[DMann]

Lets have a look at the stuff that counts, shall we?
iPod Touch / Zune HD
GPS sort of (wifi) / no (apparently)
Built-in Radio no/ yes
Radio (apps) yes / no
Audible Books yes / no
subscriptions no/ yes
Email yes / no
instant messaging yes / no
Calendar yes / no
maps yes / no
YouTube yes / no
facebook/twitter yes / no
Apps 75000 / 9 or so
games 21000 / 7 or so
external speaker yes / no
tactile volume control yes / no
Screen 3.5 LCD / 3.3 OLED

Internet Radio offers an extremely large variety of AM/FM and international stations, of which there are several apps for.

[AppleTecFan]

In all honesty I don't know why people bitch about the two companies. Windows and OSX aren't even in competition with each other. Apple & Microsoft don't really give a crap about their customers. They, like all for profit companies, just want money, not your blessing.

I would work for apple for Free!!:D

[MorphingDragon]

Read the posts before that, rather just come in the thread and see a post and respond. Sometimes the answers are right in front of you

Ive read the posts before that. Whats your point?

[maueruk07]

...Is competition, right?

Just let Microsoft pay more to their employees.

They can still having a Mac on their house, so, what's the problem with a higher wage?

[Maserati7200]

I just bought a Mac Mini for around $500.
You dont want people to know what computer you have, but you list the name of a car as your screen name? Why didn't you call yourself Daewoo7200?

Dude, why are you being so hostile? Go take a walk and calm down, this is the internet. The fact is a new Mac Mini bought directly from Apple as of September 22, 2009 at 9:43:55 PM EDT starts at $599. There are many people who don't want to pay much for computers, or simply can't afford. That's where the other OEM's and Microsoft have their advantage, reaching to the people who don't want/can't afford expensive computers.

And about my signature, that is simply a joke. Since most people list their computers in their sig, I wanted to joke about it buy writing that. Before that my computers were listed. If you really want to know what computers I have, i'll tell you.

White MacBook (May 2007) 2.16 Ghz Intel Core 2 Duo 2GB RAM 120 GB HD
Aluminum iMac 24" (August 2007) 2.4 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo 4GB RAM 500 GB HD
iMac G5 ALS 20" (~purchased April 2005) 2 GHz PowerPC G5 2GB RAM 500 GB HD
iMac G4 17" (purchased 2002) 1 GHz PowerPC G4 512 MB RAM 75 GB HD

Happy? :rolleyes:

Jai Ho

[APPLENEWBIE]

Edit: On second thought, if you think the iPhone software for business users is flawless, then there is no point in discussing it with you.

Sir, forgive me, I forgot that I wrote that iPhone software for business users was flawless. OH... WAIT... I DIDN'T. ANYWHERE. ANY TIME. Ever. Can't even think of one, can you?

[polaris20]

Their is no commitment to retail. Retail managers and employees go from chain to chain looking for the best money and opportunities. Case in point many Apple managers worked at Pottery Barn, Gap, Best Buy, and CompUSA. My old manager used to work at Best Buy and was a notorious Mac hater. Retail is retail. Employees smile and cheer and behind the scenes, complain, and disagree.

this pretty much sums up reality, and it's something that the Apple faithful need to realize.

I worked in retail all through college, and there's just no loyalty. Anywhere. Anyone who thinks that the majority of Apple employees do it for the love of Steve are fooling themselves. Do most of them like Apple stuff? Probably. Would they skip out on better pay and benefits given the opportunity? No way.

Besides, what's keeping them from continuing to use Apple stuff at home anyway? Who cares what they sell at work?

[andy721]

Okay, let me repeat the question I asked before; have you actually used the Zune HD to be forming such an opinion?

I've used the old one and I've seen ton of videos demoing it on youtube so it doesn't matter if you have to try it out in person when they got 10000093450938459872 vidoes of it demoing for you.

[LagunaSol]

Internet Radio offers an extremely large variety of AM/FM and international stations, of which there are several apps for.

I'd take Slacker Radio on my iPhone over any local radio channel (even HD) any day.

[LagunaSol]

this pretty much sums up reality, and it's something that the Apple faithful need to realize

Why don't we ever hear the term "the Microsoft faithful" when it's obvious they exist (with many of them right here on MacRumors no less...)?

[charlituna]

Depending on the state, NDAs generally (notice that I say "generally") would not be enforced by a court for retail staff. Since the Apple retail folks are merely in store to sell, which includes disseminating public knowledge about the product, it would likely be difficult for Apple to demonstrate the kind of need usually necessary to justify the enforcement of an NDA.


Apple Retail staff consistently claim they are told nothing until the public is. they don't know release dates, details,what's on the drawing boards etc. they say it when the rumors start, they say it when the announcements of an announcement go out, they say it when folks come in pissed cause they just bought a new whatever 3 weeks ago and this morning a new version was announced.

crazy thought, maybe they aren't told anything. which would make an NDA unneeded. and that lack of having to bother could be part of why they aren't told since it's hard to track someone down to sign one when leaving if the person just decides not to show up one day

[MagnusVonMagnum]

has been contacting Apple retail store managers and attempting to lure them away with increased salaries to run its own stores.Apple managers who have accepted Microsoft's offers have reportedly then been tasked with attempting to hire Apple retail store staff, similarly dangling increased compensation as an incentive for employees to make the switch.

Sounds like a win-win situation for former Apple staff. I sure as heck wouldn't have any loyalty to Apple if Microsoft were offering me more money. Apple has proven to me over the past three years since buying two Macs that they aren't ANY better morally than Microsoft...possibly worse in many respects like telling you what hardware you can run their operating system on (theirs of course, since that makes them more money), ignoring most customer feedback, complaints, etc. (Steve knows best) and doing everything possible to encourage your to buy new hardware all the time (e.g. withholding newer features for iPhones to the newest models only like video record, despite the capability being possible on older equipment (hacked models prove this) so that you will want to buy a brand new model instead of just upgrading the software on the old one. Whereas at least with Microsoft, XP runs just as well today as it did three years ago, perhaps better. I don't have to upgrade to Vista or Windows7 to keep using the machine I bought two years ago with the latest software. Why should ANYONE give a crap about loyalty to Apple when they treat their customers like so much meat? I seriously doubt they treat their employees any better, gaging by some of the comments on here about employees forced to become self-incorporated in order to bypass U.S. labor laws, etc. in order to work for Apple. It's pathetic. So while I may like Apple OS better than Microsoft's OS at the moment, I don't like or respect EITHER company so I'd be ALL ABOUT THE MONEY in that situation.

[Target362]

An NDA for what? For where they keep the broom and dustpan? Seriously, these people that work at Apple stores are not working in the lab designing iPhones and Mac Pros, they're being paid (probably) poorly to sell Apple products; I don't think they need to sign an NDA to ring up purchases.

And on another note, what is with all the posters in this thread thinking people work in an Apple store because they are "passionate" about Apple and "love their favorite fruit company." It's a retail job for cryin' out loud, I would put good odds on most people working at Apple stores because it's "cool" or close to home, not because they are so in love with Apple. Am I to infer then that everyone who works at Bestbuy does so because they are "passionate" about Bestbuy? And Safeway, too? And Walmart?

I work at Target does that mean I'm passionate about our compney, or even the dog? Nope. I like retail, not to menton I live 2 minutes away

Ironically enough, the wireless PDA system that employees use to ring up purchases is just one of the systems that Apple uses to set itself apart from the rest of the retail market (and considers proprietorial).

but yet, its a PDA. nothing more, nothing less. That does not mean they have to sign something to use a PDA many retailers use (my store uses the same model PDAs as the local apple store. So the PDAS are not exclusive to apple, if they were, wouldnt the stores be using iphones or touches?

[charlituna]

I'd follow the money too, but I'd still go spend my paycheck at the Apple Store. And go home to my Apple products. It's just a job, people.

keep in mind that you probably get a discount on that Apple stuff when you work there. maybe even some free stuff (software at least I bet). so count that in when you are deciding if you'll do better at Microsoft.

Moving seems a stupid thing to do. These MS stores won't be around in 3 years time.

there were probably folks that said that about Apple Retail when it started.

as much as I really don't care about MSRetail I'm not going to proclaim them dead before they start. although I will laugh my A** off if they do crash and burn from the start.

I'm not sure that many Apple Store employees will still be in the same job in 3 years time though. Don't know about staff turnover numbers,

in a recent report Apple was listed at a turnover rate of 20%, while the average for retail was like 55%

Do I understand that right: Because of the sales goal you had, if I entered your shop and bought the "wrong" item, then that extra sale could make you _miss_ your sales goals?

there are reports that at some Best Buy stores employees were doing the full court press and then after the customer said no to the extended warranties etc, suddenly the employee came back from the stock room to say the item was out of stock (when it wasn't), just to avoid making an unattached sale

What is the advantage of recruiting from Apple? There are surely qualified managers out there that do not work for Apple.

sure and they probably hired some of them as well. but what's the fun in saying "Microsoft went after managers from Starbucks, Borders, Gap, Ikea and Apple"

The MS store will be rammed - trust me.


i think they will have traffic at first because it is something new. but will it last is the issue. and will it be folks buying or just coming to gawk


How can you know for certain you don't have a virus without antivirus software? ;)

do I need to go see a doctor to know that my fever, chills, coughing and the greenish gunk coming out of my nose means I'm sick. no.

those that work with computers know the symptoms.

Very clever of MS is will say.
But here is their strategy. MS is trying to give the impression that they are giving the pc crowd a MAC experience at crack whore prices.

"It was oregano, Dave. It was ten dollars worth of oregano."
"Yeah well your client thought it was marijuana."
"My clients’ a moron, thats not against the law."
"Look Caffey, I’ve got people to answer to, just like you do. I’m gonna charge him."
"With what? Possesion of a condiment?"
:eek::D


Windows 7 isn't going to "rock our world" but it's definitely the best Windows OS ever

i suspect you are correct. I don't use Windows so I can't say for sure. But it seems to me that Win7 is less about what the other side is doing and more about resetting the game, making folks forget the bad aftertaste of Vista. and if they can do that then they are in a better place to tackle MacOSX, Linux etc

Are we committed to the brand or the great products they continually produce?

why not both. i got into Apple via school and work and basically being forced to go that way. I was impressed with the products and with the brand. the latter is good cause sometimes Apple flubs but I have faith they will fix their mistakes so I stick it out



I'm not sure you can say "sign this or we're not giving you your last check".

not in most states, it might even be federal.


By the way, I am totally going to have Windows 7 loaded on my MBP, and then waltz in there and demand that they fix something while running Boot Camp. I want to see what happens.

hey could you like slip a camera nano on your pocket and tape it for us.

Courts are loathe to do this with executives much less minimum wage workers, so this is a non-issue.

forget the courts, Apple enforcing a NDA on some $9 an hour telephone operator or whatever makes them look like a bunch of serious dicks. they won't want the bad PR

Have you every seen an Apple employee who has been in the apple store for longer then a year? I hope these people are motivated enough to only use the sales gig to get a better job.

yeah, they move up to management

[Target362]

Apple Retail staff consistently claim they are told nothing until the public is. they don't know release dates, details,what's on the drawing boards etc. they say it when the rumors start, they say it when the announcements of an announcement go out, they say it when folks come in pissed cause they just bought a new whatever 3 weeks ago and this morning a new version was announced.

crazy thought, maybe they aren't told anything. which would make an NDA unneeded. and that lack of having to bother could be part of why they aren't told since it's hard to track someone down to sign one when leaving if the person just decides not to show up one day

thats correct. Anyone who works in retail at non management positions do not have first hand information about plans for the compney. sure, there may be flyers or posters that are posted near the break room, but that wont happen until its close enough to the date where the public will know.

Even at management, you still don't know anything. Same if your an intern or at a low to mid position in the corp. office

Do you think the tech support guys at apple know whats going on in the next 6 months? I dobut it.

[Target362]

keep in mind that you probably get a discount on that Apple stuff when you work there. maybe even some free stuff (software at least I bet). so count that in when you are deciding if you'll do better at Microsoft.

I get discounts on apple products and I don't work for them. My disccont may be less then theirs, or it may match. Not every employer gives 50% discounts. I get 10% disccount at items at our store+website



yeah, they move up to management

Someone can work at the apple store for 10 years and still not be in management. (some rather not deal with the drama that manengers go through and are happy as a basic level employee) To be a manager you have to show management material, including leadership with in the team. You dont just go work for someone and a year later be placed in a management position. Plus, you have to pass a few tests before they can move up from a basic entry level employee.

[dvdhsu]

I work at Target does that mean I'm passionate about our compney, or even the dog? Nope. I like retail, not to menton I live 2 minutes away



but yet, its a PDA. nothing more, nothing less. That does not mean they have to sign something to use a PDA many retailers use (my store uses the same model PDAs as the local apple store. So the PDAS are not exclusive to apple, if they were, wouldnt the stores be using iphones or touches?

You're comparing Apple to Target. That's similar to comparing Google and Safeway.
In other words, completely absurd.
If you don't live in the Silicon Valley, you wouldn't know what working for Google is like.

Next, there is no NDA for regular retail staff.
For a manager, there is none either.
That won't be a block for Microsoft in hiring them.
This can easily be proven. Had Microsoft hired them when they were under contract with Apple and Microsoft knew it, they would be committing a tort. The manager of the Apple Store could sue, and so could Apple.
Thus, it's also a criminal case.
Lastly, I would like to make a point in your job.
It's obvious that you're not happy with your present job. Why don't you go do something that you love? Living life to the fullest does not mean not making money.

[Target362]

You're comparing Apple to Target. That's similar to comparing Google and Safeway.
In other words, completely absurd.
If you don't live in the Silicon Valley, you wouldn't know what working for Google is like.

Next, there is no NDA for regular retail staff.
For a manager, there is none either.
That won't be a block for Microsoft in hiring them.
This can easily be proven. Had Microsoft hired them when they were under contract with Apple and Microsoft knew it, they would be committing a tort. The manager of the Apple Store could sue, and so could Apple.
Thus, it's also a criminal case.
Lastly, I would like to make a point in your job.
It's obvious that you're not happy with your present job. Why don't you go do something that you love? Living life to the fullest does not mean not making money.

Your kind of missing the point here. People were thinking everyone who works somewhere is working because they are passionate about the compney they are working for.

and you dont know if I'm happy with my job. I am. I love my job. Where did I say I was not happy. Also where did I say "living life to the fullest is making money"

Please enough. Go back to work flipping burgers.

[dvdhsu]

I get discounts on apple products and I don't work for them. My disccont may be less then theirs, or it may match. Not every employer gives 50% discounts. I get 10% disccount at items at our store+website





Someone can work at the apple store for 10 years and still not be in management. (some rather not deal with the drama that manengers go through and are happy as a basic level employee) To be a manager you have to show management material, including leadership with in the team. You dont just go work for someone and a year later be placed in a management position. Plus, you have to pass a few tests before they can move up from a basic entry level employee.
Funnily enough, I got more than 50% off on my MacBook Air from MacMall. AND I DON'T EVEN WORK FOR APPLE!
Wow, working for Apple MUST SUCK.

If you've been working at a job for more than a year, you have some emotions attached to it. Even as a low level Genuis Bar position, you're getting paid $20 per hour. Not bad.

[Target362]

If you've been working at a job for more than a year, you have some emotions attached to it. Even as a low level Genuis Bar position, you're getting paid $20 per hour. Not bad.


yes, but that does not mean you want to be in management like you seem to be thinking. My grandfather has been working at Costco for 10 years and yet he does not want to be a mananger, even though he has the material to do so 9not to menton hes already retired, but still working)

[dvdhsu]

yes, but that does not mean you want to be in management like you seem to be thinking

Quite frankly, managers aren't making much.
I'm 20, out of college, and I'm making around 300,000 a year.
I work Genius Bar shifts when I'm bored, and then work in real estate.

Also, as an FYI, we do get to see the stocks of new products around one day before the keynotes.
Technically, we can't open the boxes, but we can easily look through the plastic wrapping.
I love how you decided not to quote my first part though. :D

[Target362]

Quite frankly, managers aren't making much.
I'm 20, out of college, and I'm making around 300,000 a year.
I work Genius Bar shifts when I'm bored, and then work in real estate.

Also, as an FYI, we do get to see the stocks of new products around one day before the keynotes.
Technically, we can't open the boxes, but we can easily look through the plastic wrapping.
I love how you decided not to quote my first part though. :D

You also work in Real Estate. ****, you should just take that.

and thats a bit different you work at Apple other retailers sell different products. Only thing other retialers may see before the rest is new signage, new department layouts etc

and I didnt quote the first part as its pointless at the time and now i know. You work for apple (store)

[mattkilla420]

For the first time, all the Specialists, Geniuses, Creatives... they'll all have to ask themselves what working for Apple really means. Do they work because they are passionate and engaged to represent the philosophy, ideals, and products that Apple stands for? Or are they in it just for the paycheck?

lol, this is for mall retail jobs, not making new apple products. i worked for 3 years in retail while going to college and most managers where people with a bs degree, thats it. its a customer service job, and most people that work at the apple store (at least in san diego) are in college/college age just trying to make a paycheck. the average time people work in retail even for managers is not that long, i worked at a place called ruehl and i worked there when it opened up on day 1, there was only 3 people still working there that started with me when i left.

hopefully being manager at a retail store is not a career choice and would want want to move on to bigger and better things. for people out on the floor selling you apple, they get payed about $10 an hour. you really think that all those people love apple so much and they are "passionate and engaged to represent the philosophy, ideals, and products that Apple stands for" that if they had an option would not choose to go to another retail store for $15? lol, come on. you think the manager at del taco represents all the ideals and philosophy of del tacos taco making?

[*LTD*]

Why don't we ever hear the term "the Microsoft faithful" when it's obvious they exist (with many of them right here on MacRumors no less...)?

But does that even make sense? "Microsoft Fanboy"?, "Microsoft faithful"? Fan of what, exactly? Office? The Intellimouse? Live services? Maybe Windows . . . but really, I can't see how Vista would do that. Or XP. It's like kissing your sister.

What's the point of being a fan when there's really not a whole lot to be excited about in the first place?

It's like being a fan of voltmeters.

[markgodley]

Man how long can Microsoft get away with this sort of crap!

[davisjw]

If these stores are going to be "strategically" located near Apple stores, Apple should have one of their workers stand outside a Microsoft store handing out tissues with the Apple logo on them to people entering the stores. People should be well protected when going into a store filled with bugs and viruses...

[seedster2]

I know why this kind of story is the first page. It's a catalyst for irrational nonsense posting and increased traffic.

Either some of you aren't attractive employees for competitors to consider recruiting or just in fanboy lala land. This is common practice in the corporate environments where I've worked. Hard to believe some are trying to make an issue of this.

Fortunately, the majority of apple retail staff go where there are better opportunities and money. They don't stick with a company based on silly nostalgic loyalty.

[Target362]

Man how long can Microsoft get away with this sort of crap!

They arnt getting away with anything. People have every right to chose what employer they want to work with, and if Microsoft offers them more then apple, then surley they would chose Microsoft, and not stick with apple because its "cool". You dont work at a place to be cool, you work at a place that offers the best pay, best benefits, best working conditions etc.

If these stores are going to be "strategically" located near Apple stores, Apple should have one of their workers stand outside a Microsoft store handing out tissues with the Apple logo on them to people entering the stores. People should be well protected when going into a store filled with bugs and viruses...

Tissues wont protect a person from the swine flu </scarscam>

Is Microsoft even going to be selling computers? I thought it was just going to be Microsoft software and hardware (keyboards, mice, webcams, Xbox etc)

even then, computers do not come shipped with virus, its the person who uses the computer who places the virus on their machines. (not installing anti virus software and going on strange sites and downloading strange files is one way to get a virus)

[PeterQVenkman]

Bring it on. I love my Xbox, and I would love to get Zune, if it worked on a mac.

More competition = good for me.

[Target362]

hopefully being manager at a retail store is not a career choice and would want want to move on to bigger and better things.

think again. Not everyone wants to become a doctor or a lawyer. Some just love the retail world. Remember moving on to "bigger and better" things does not mean making 10k a year, living in a 10,000 squire feet home and driving a Porsche or some other fancy car. If a person is happy at making 5k or less a year then so be it. (a lot of you need to understand that and that the world is not about becoming rich and famous.)


for people out on the floor selling you apple, they get payed about $10 an hour. you really think that all those people love apple so much and they are "passionate and engaged to represent the philosophy, ideals, and products that Apple stands for" that if they had an option would not choose to go to another retail store for $15?

Even then I don't think any store starts off at that. Sure after you been there a while and you get raises you might make 15 or more an hour, but I dobut any one starts off at that


lol, come on. you think the manager at del taco represents all the ideals and philosophy of del tacos taco making?

Nope they just deal with the idiotic , wired, strange and rude people that come in. Kind of like retail .(when I worked for mcdonalds back in 2007/2008 the $1 menu people cracked me up the most. they always screamed their order, got pissed if something went up in price or a mistake was made.)

[MacMonster1985]

But does that even make sense? "Microsoft Fanboy"?, "Microsoft faithful"? Fan of what, exactly? Office? The Intellimouse? Live services? Maybe Windows . . . but really, I can't see how Vista would do that. Or XP. It's like kissing your sister.

What's the point of being a fan when there's really not a whole lot to be excited about in the first place?

It's like being a fan of voltmeters.

There are a lot of RROD 360 fanboys floating around.

[polaris20]

Why don't we ever hear the term "the Microsoft faithful" when it's obvious they exist (with many of them right here on MacRumors no less...)?

Oh they definitely exist, and they're definitely on here, to an annoying extent.

I've used the old one and I've seen ton of videos demoing it on youtube so it doesn't matter if you have to try it out in person when they got 10000093450938459872 vidoes of it demoing for you.

So you used a device that isn't comparable at all to the new product (analogous to the iPT vs. the Classic), and you saw a few crappy videos on Youtube, and this is enough for you to formulate a qualified opinion? ROFL

[Mattie Num Nums]

Apple Retail staff consistently claim they are told nothing until the public is.

The NDA is because their is private information available on the Back of House support page, client information available through GCRM (peoplesoft), Back of House stock information via SAP (this is crucial not allowed to give stock info over the phone), or even in some extreme cases acknowledgment of an issue Apple has no solution for (Apple Eyes on Docs in the back of house support site.)

Employees dont know anything. When the iPhone came out the stores closed for 4 house so that employees could get a literal crash course. When Leopard came out most customers knew about it more than us because they downloaded Torrents or Developer previews. I remember being at the Genius bar having customers asking me about leopard and being like I don't know Apple hasn't provided my employee copy yet! Another example of employees not knowing is that most Mac Geniuses find out about Repair Extension Programs from customers asking about. Just a product of Apple trying to make sure people don't blab about projects or behind the scenes information.

But does that even make sense? "Microsoft Fanboy"?, "Microsoft faithful"? Fan of what, exactly? Office? The Intellimouse? Live services? Maybe Windows . . . but really, I can't see how Vista would do that. Or XP. It's like kissing your sister.

What's the point of being a fan when there's really not a whole lot to be excited about in the first place?

It's like being a fan of voltmeters.

Ignorant as usual. I am not a Microsoft fanboy but working in the IT world I can tell you that working with AD and GPO's make me excited. Exchange server is a great product and Microsofts business suites such as Sharepoint and Project Server are amazing for businesses. I hate to tell you... Apple is just another niche market. They do it well but don't forget Microsoft cares about the people with cash first... big businesses. The company I work for spend over 50 million a year in Microsoft support and products.

[*LTD*]

Ignorant as usual. I am not a Microsoft fanboy but working in the IT world I can tell you that working with AD and GPO's make me excited. Exchange server is a great product and Microsofts business suites such as Sharepoint and Project Server are amazing for businesses. I hate to tell you... Apple is just another niche market. They do it well but don't forget Microsoft cares about the people with cash first... big businesses. The company I work for spend over 50 million a year in Microsoft support and products.

Well exactly.

A corporate/enterprise software vendor masquerading as a home/consumer vendor.

"but don't forget Microsoft cares about the people with cash first... big businesses."

There's no doubt about that. It shows.

[Mattie Num Nums]

"but don't forget Microsoft cares about the people with cash first... big businesses."


Same could be said for Apple

[jmpage2]

Same could be said for Apple

Actually Apple seems to be known for under paying the people in many core areas of their business, such as many of their programmers, etc.

[polaris20]

Well exactly.

A corporate/enterprise software vendor masquerading as a home/consumer vendor.

"but don't forget Microsoft cares about the people with cash first... big businesses."

There's no doubt about that. It shows.

I'll say this again, I love Apple products, but you're fooling yourself if you think ANY publicly traded company thinks of anyone before they think of their shareholders.

Good customer service is a means to an end; it's not their primary purpose.

[*LTD*]

Same could be said for Apple

Apple has no real presence in the business sector.

Unless they're somehow catering to Adobe or Intel.

Apple specializes in the home/consumer sector, through and through. And THAT certainly shows.

[Target362]

those who are saying apple underpays how can you be for sure? Do you work for apple and are unhappy with your pay? Are you saying this information that you got some someone else?

[Mattie Num Nums]

Apple has no real presence in the business sector.

Unless they're somehow catering to Adobe or Intel.

Apple specializes in the home/consumer sector, through and through. And THAT certainly shows.

Good job ignoring the obvious yet again.

You said Microsoft only wants the cash flow from big business... I said same could be said for Apple. Apple wants the cash flow from 14 year old teeny boppers and fanboys like you. The old school Mac enthusiast don't mean anything to Apple anymore because they are more likely to hold onto a PowerPC than spend thousands on an overpriced PC in an Aluminum box.

those who are saying apple underpays how can you be for sure? Do you work for apple and are unhappy with your pay? Are you saying this information that you got some someone else?

I left apple for another large company support Apple products I made 45% more in essentially the same position.

[Fastshutter]

Stealing employees away is an enormous compliment to Apple. Apple has already vetted out employee candidates with good customer service skills and then trained them up in the art of product evangilism. Microsoft has every right to staff their stores with employees who have that experience and patienence with customers who are unfamilar with the products or technology.

While Apple employees are happy to share the Apple brand, they are also just as happy to share the knowledge they have with technology. Any Apple employee who gets real satisfaction from sharing information with others will be just as effective sharing Windows technology. It's disingenuous to call the Apple employee traitors or disloyal because they see better oppurtunities working for another major leader in technology . Besides, someone is bound to walk into a Microsoft store asking for help with their iPod and iTunes. :D

[hscottm]

Like the move or not, this is such an unexpected tactic for retail. The whole mantra in retail is to pay the staff as little as possible (since margins, in general, are so low) which is aided by high turnover with people leaving Wal-mart job to work at target for 50 cents more an hour... AND to also pray that the employees do not steal from you to the level that it cuts in to profits.

Paying your retail staff more directly cuts in to the profit you make from the operation. And if you've hired people away at lucrative salaries, they're less likely to leave because you're now overpaying them and there won't be obvious jobs for them to switch to - so you're locked in to a fairly high cost structure!

BUT.. While we know MS isn't in this to "make money" (as clearly Apple is doing successfully with it where Gateway and others failed), all it takes is a few bad years of losing money for a new MS CFO to come along and admit it's not worth the investment just to put computers on shelves for people.

[*LTD*]

Good job ignoring the obvious yet again.

You said Microsoft only wants the cash flow from big business... I said same could be said for Apple. Apple wants the cash flow from 14 year old teeny boppers and fanboys like you.


You can paint it in as many colours as you like.

Sorry about you "old school Mac enthusiasts" (whatever that means.) Maybe it's time to get with it and get an Intel Mac.

I've let go of my old PowerPC from 1994 (does that make me "old school" too?) No reason for me to be angry about Intel Macs in 2009.

Exactly how much support do these "old school Mac enthusiasts" expect for their old PowerBooks, now years out of warranty?

[Target362]

You can paint it in as many colours as you like.

Sorry about you "old school Mac enthusiasts" (whatever that means.) Maybe it's time to get with it and get an Intel Mac.

I've let go of my old PowerPC from 1994 (does that make me "old school" too?) No reason for me to be angry about Intel Macs in 2009.

Exactly how much support do these "old school Mac enthusiasts" expect for their old PowerBooks, now years out of warranty?

He does have a point. Apple is in it for the money (as with any company) and most ipod users are spoiled, rude and immature 14 year old brats. I dont know how many times I've seen the freshmen/sophmore kids getting ther ipods taken away back when I was a senior few years ago. I was placed in a freshmen class my senior year and all those kids did was ignore the teacher and listen to their ipods and talk about myspace and that hanna montana and jonny brothers crap.

[Mattie Num Nums]

You can paint it in as many colours as you like.

Sorry about you "old school Mac enthusiasts" (whatever that means.) Maybe it's time to get with it and get an Intel Mac.

I've let go of my old PowerPC from 1994 (does that make me "old school" too?) No reason for me to be angry about Intel Macs in 2009.

Exactly how much support do these "old school Mac enthusiasts" expect for their old PowerBooks, now years out of warranty?

What about people that use 50k-75k dollar Protool rigs built for PPC machines? This is the perfect point. Apple force feeds. Microsoft does not. The company I work for uses Windows XP SP2 and we get 100% support. So horrible Microsoft doesn't force feed us Vista. Apple? Every Laptop we get has Snow Leopard even though we have begged Apple to ship us Leopard machines because Juniper SSL doesn't support SL and many other in house programs don't support SL. Force Fed.

Oh I forgot. We should just make it work. Good thinking. You obviously have not been in the real world. Do you have any enterprise or real world work experience, or are you even old enough to provide life experience. From your comments you just sound like the iPod customers stated above.

[Eidorian]

What about people that use 50k-75k dollar Protool rigs built for PPC machines? This is the perfect point. Apple force feeds. Microsoft does not. The company I work for uses Windows XP SP2 and we get 100% support. So horrible Microsoft doesn't force feed us Vista. Apple? Every Laptop we get has Snow Leopard even though we have begged Apple to ship us Leopard machines because Juniper SSL doesn't support SL and many other in house programs don't support SL. Force Fed.

Oh I forgot. We should just make it work. Good thinking. You obviously have not been in the real world. Do you have any enterprise or real world work experience, or are you even old enough to provide life experience. From your comments you just sound like the iPod customers stated above.Right now there aren't any Snow Leopard only machines. Image Leopard onto them if you're within the bounds of your license situation.

[MacGuffin]

425 Negatives?

This is good news, you fools.

Retail's a pretty grim hole for an entire generation to be stuck in. But it's where a lot of you are going to end up, and spend long fruitless years, a fate owing less to your talents and abilities than to dire market economics and the stubbornness of the Boomers to just go off and die.

So you might as well welcome every chance to make a bit better living than Apple is paying now. And try to remember this: Apple may be cool, but it isn't your "friend." When you work for a low salary for a corporation that's making enough to print its own damn currency, there's a word for that.

Look it up.

[edoates]

Let's put the NDA/non-compete stuff to rest. Even if retail employees are signing these things, no court is going to enforce them to the extent they prevent such employees from working at another job (which should come as a relief to most of the posters on this board). Courts are loathe to do this with executives much less minimum wage workers, so this is a non-issue.

But NDAs do prevent (and has been enforced by courts) sharing of customer lists, pricing policies, return policies, future product plans, etc. Even sharing the training orientation techniques. So when MS (or Safeway for that matter) hires Apple retail store clerks (and you are correct, NDAs can't prevent that; even non-competes have never been enforced on rank and file employees), the new MS employee can bring his "bag of retail skills" with him, but can't share Apple proprietary stuff.

[windywoo]

I would imagine Microsoft approached more than just Apple employees, but mentioning the Apple employees first will get more hits.

[charlituna]

Someone can work at the apple store for 10 years and still not be in management.


yeah and someone can work at Target for 10 years and still not be in management.

[dvdhsu]

yeah and someone can work at Target for 10 years and still not be in management.

You can't deny that he has a point.

Right now there aren't any Snow Leopard only machines. Image Leopard onto them if you're within the bounds of your license situation.

You, Mattie, just got your ass kicked.

[charlituna]

those who are saying apple underpays how can you be for sure? Do you work for apple and are unhappy with your pay? Are you saying this information that you got some someone else?

most of the folks making comments probably do NOT work for Apple. So they don't know the pay, the discounts etc.

and even those that say they do work for Apple can only speak to the fact that they themselves do or do not make a particular amount. every shop has a rule against talking about your pay rate so they likely don't know about the guy that had 3 years of starbucks and came in at the same time but is getting a dollar more an hour.

[Target362]

yeah and someone can work at Target for 10 years and still not be in management.

Exactly. I did not say anything about that. Re read my quote.


most of the folks making comments probably do NOT work for Apple. So they don't know the pay, the discounts etc.

Most dont even work for retail., or even work at all.

and even though that say they do work for Apple can only speak to the fact that they themselves do or do not make a particular amount. every shop has a rule against talking about your pay rate so they likely don't know about the guy that had 3 years of starbucks and came in at the same time but is getting a dollar more an hour.

Those type of people do not know how the working world works

[DMann]

Most dont even work for retail., or even work at all. Like the two dumb kids above with the smart ass remarks and childish smilies. Those type of people do not know how the working world worksFYI, the smilie was used in restraint - one could write volumes about your general ineptitude, clueless outlook, and overall, extreme incoherence. We'll just leave it at :p, for now.

[Buzz Bumble]

Is anyone really stupid enough to leave a company where they can get employee-discount iPods and Macs for a company where they can get employee-discount Zunes?!?!? ;)

[Mattie Num Nums]

Right now there aren't any Snow Leopard only machines. Image Leopard onto them if you're within the bounds of your license situation.

Its not. Thats the point. Apple doesn't support going backwards on software. Never has never will.

[touchtone561]

Microsoft sells branded keyboards, mouse, MP3 players, Xbox, etc.

So what is stopping them from selling PCs with Windows XP/Vista/7 just like Apple does with OS X?

And if they do start doing so, then do have a direct battle with Apple Store concept....

[Target362]

Microsoft sells branded keyboards, mouse, MP3 players, Xbox, etc.

So what is stopping them from selling PCs with Windows XP/Vista/7 just like Apple does with OS X?

And if they do start doing so, then do have a direct battle with Apple Store concept....

your post title says Making PCs, but your actual post says selling (meaning HP, Dell, Sony etc)

and if it is so what? Unless microsoft copies apple in every detial, theres no legal problem here.

[Mattie Num Nums]

your post title says Making PCs, but your actual post says selling (meaning HP, Dell, Sony etc)

and if it is so what? Unless microsoft copies apple in every detial, theres no legal problem here.

Because if Microsoft does it its a Monopoly, if Apple does it its brilliant and never done before.

[Target362]

Because if Microsoft does it its a Monopoly, if Apple does it its brilliant and never done before.

didnt the gateway stores come before apple's did?

and I dont see it as that. It will be a place to get everything you need all in one spot.

[LagunaSol]

Because if Microsoft does it its a Monopoly, if Apple does it its brilliant and never done before.

Wow, what a disingenuous argument.

Seriously - what's your beef? Were you fired from Apple? I'd like to know the motivation for your endless anti-Apple rage.

[DMann]

didnt the gateway stores come before apple's did?And wasn't that a resounding success?

and I dont see it as that. It will be a place to get everything you need all in one spot.Best Buy and Circuit City come to mind. Although, it will certainly provide yet another outlet to get everything one needs - it seems that Apple's strategy provides consumers with things they actually want.

[pr5owner]

Wow, what a disingenuous argument.

Seriously - what's your beef? Were you fired from Apple? I'd like to know the motivation for your endless anti-Apple rage.

why are you so pro apple that you see them do no wrong?

apple isnt that great if you open your eyes. (even if its to the extend of this forum and the problems users have)

[Eidorian]

Its not. Thats the point. Apple doesn't support going backwards on software. Never has never will.I know what you mean. You just can't say that they're Snow Leopard only today.

Once the new Snow Leopard only Macs roll around it's going to break any chance of maintaining support for one version of the OS.

It's touched on here most recently (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=787967). I know I've brought it up a few times over the years.

[pr5owner]

Lets have a look at the stuff that counts, shall we?
iPod Touch / Zune HD
GPS sort of (wifi) / no (apparently)
Radio no / yes
Audible Books yes / no
subscriptions no/ yes
Email yes / no
instant messaging yes / no
Calendar yes / no
maps yes / no
facebook/twitter yes / no
Apps 75000 / 9 or so
games 21000 / 7 or so
Screen 3.5 LCD / 3.3 OLED

lets compare windows mobile devices shall we? (there are 10s of thousands of them)

GPS sort of (wifi) / Yes, Assisted, bluetooth, YOU NAME IT (even usb)
Radio no / yes (TONS of devices including Touch HD and Touch Pro)
Audible Books yes / YES (choose from 10+ programs)
subscriptions no/ yes
Email yes / Yes (it was built for MS Push email)
instant messaging yes / Yes (every protocol and messenger possible)
Calendar yes / (yes, even syncs with MS Exchange)
maps yes / (every type possible, google, google earth, tomtom, garmin,iguidance, igo, etcetc)
facebook/twitter yes / Yes (either deticated app or browser)
Apps 75000 / millions publicly available and privately
games 21000 / i would say Thousands
Screen 3.5 LCD / any size from 1" to 4.5" all resolutions, VGA, SVGA, WVGA, WSVGA (FFS even the HTC Universal from 2004 had a VGA screen, the ipod only has a POS 480x320 which isnt even a 4:3 or 16:9 resolution)

apple products arent that superior sorry.

the Zune HD has only been out for a very limited time, the iphone when it came out 2-3 years ago, didnt have 3G, 3G phones with video calling at the time had been out for 4 years prior to the release of the iphone.

[LagunaSol]

why are you so pro apple that you see them do no wrong?

Who said anything of the sort? I sure didn't.

[charlituna]

Right now there aren't any Snow Leopard only machines. Image Leopard onto them if you're within the bounds of your license situation.

or do like a friend of mine did. he was in the market for a new laptop but he works in audio and he's not sure all the drivers are up to date for SL.

so when he went in yesterday to buy the computer he asked them if they had any machines left that were in house before the release so they got the disk and actually have leopard on the machine. that way he's got leopard for now, snow leopard for when he is pretty sure everything has been updated but the original leopard restore disk if he is wrong.

i thought that was rather clever. and yes as it turned out they did have a couple boxes left just that way. so he was glad he asked.

[Kristenn]

He does have a point. Apple is in it for the money (as with any company) and most ipod users are spoiled, rude and immature 14 year old brats. I dont know how many times I've seen the freshmen/sophmore kids getting ther ipods taken away back when I was a senior few years ago. I was placed in a freshmen class my senior year and all those kids did was ignore the teacher and listen to their ipods and talk about myspace and that hanna montana and jonny brothers crap.

Business is business...

Though even the Microsoft fans tell me that a lot of things Microsoft steals from Apple. They know the whole history on the Xerox parc thing and what not. But I see it more as Microsoft BUYING Apples workers. I don't have anything against Microsoft or Apple at all. Its just business. Thats what my dad says... anyway.

[touchtone561]

your post title says Making PCs, but your actual post says selling (meaning HP, Dell, Sony etc)

and if it is so what? Unless microsoft copies apple in every detial, theres no legal problem here.

I feel misquoted. I should have mentioned ZUNE, and Microsoft Keyboard and Microsoft Mouse by name. I thought the XBox reference would have been enough. I'm writing this comment on a MBP, by the way.

Selling doesn't mean another vendor in this case. It just means you make something and you try to get someone to buy it.

Nevertheless, if Microsoft decided to make netbooks, laptops, etc, with the Microsoft name I don't think there is anything that could stop them.

[gnasher729]

I would work for apple for Free!!:D

I would work for Apple for $1 a year.

As long as they give me plenty of free shares :D

[Target362]

yeah try working at apple while also tring to make a living.

[polaris20]

lets compare windows mobile devices shall we? (there are 10s of thousands of them)

GPS sort of (wifi) / Yes, Assisted, bluetooth, YOU NAME IT (even usb)
Radio no / yes (TONS of devices including Touch HD and Touch Pro)
Audible Books yes / YES (choose from 10+ programs)
subscriptions no/ yes
Email yes / Yes (it was built for MS Push email)
instant messaging yes / Yes (every protocol and messenger possible)
Calendar yes / (yes, even syncs with MS Exchange)
maps yes / (every type possible, google, google earth, tomtom, garmin,iguidance, igo, etcetc)
facebook/twitter yes / Yes (either deticated app or browser)
Apps 75000 / millions publicly available and privately
games 21000 / i would say Thousands
Screen 3.5 LCD / any size from 1" to 4.5" all resolutions, VGA, SVGA, WVGA, WSVGA (FFS even the HTC Universal from 2004 had a VGA screen, the ipod only has a POS 480x320 which isnt even a 4:3 or 16:9 resolution)

apple products arent that superior sorry.

the Zune HD has only been out for a very limited time, the iphone when it came out 2-3 years ago, didnt have 3G, 3G phones with video calling at the time had been out for 4 years prior to the release of the iphone.

Yeah, Windows Mobile is so awesome, Steve Ballmer says so.

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/351895/ballmer-blasts-windows-mobile

Oh wait, no he doesn't. Windows 7 is nice. XBox 360 is a great gaming system. The Zune HD looks promising. But Windows Mobile? Junk.

[throttlemeister]

The irony is that you can hack and customize the hell out of WM and make it look and do exactly what you want, just like you can with OSX. And very much unlike the iPhone. :)

[polaris20]

The irony is that you can hack and customize the hell out of WM and make it look and do exactly what you want, just like you can with OSX. And very much unlike the iPhone. :)

The drawback is the browser still sucks, there's no good app store, the battery life is horrible, and nearly every phone I've used with it (Q, Q9M, Q9C, Saga, Touch Pro, Blackjack II) have horrible phone quality.

Thanks, but I'd take an iPhone, Blackberry, or Android over WinMo any day of the week.