Microsoft's Prototype Multi-Touch Tablet/Booklet

[AidenShaw]

How bizarrely ironic? He chooses to swim in the very cesspool he perpetually dumps in.

I'm not swimming - I'm observing from a comfortable distance (and I'm upwind, so I'm not bothered by the "vapors" coming from you).


What can I say. To a conspirationist, everything is all a part of the plan to "get" you.

Insert favorite tin-foil hat graphic and comment here.... ;)

[DMann]

It's always good fun to mingle a bit with the common mob. Oh, but the stench!!

[Pocket lint]

Oh, but the stench!!

Contrary to the common belief that it was invented for swimmers, it was actually the Earl of Cormia who invented the nose clip mid 16th century to protect his fine nostrils when he was to inspect his big and plentiful stables.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_of_Cormia.

[DMann]

I'm not swimming - I'm observing from a comfortable distance (and I'm upwind, so I'm not bothered by the "vapors" coming from you) translation: "I know you are, but what am I?"True, you're sinking, while observing from a comfortable distance, albeit several fathoms below.

[*LTD*]

Revolutionary? Really? Technologically-wise they aren't such a big deal. Maybe they are the best selling devices but that doesn't make them revolutionary, unless of course, you are quoting your personal jesus Steve Jobs.

I'm quoting market sentiment. And really, the iPhone was released and then the whole market changed. Radically. That's pretty revolutionary. But don't take my word for it. Examine market sentiment yourself. You don't need a Steve Jobs to tell you what you already know. Namely, that the iPhone changed the entire mobile industry.

I provide links to facts, studies, articles, reports. It's all available. You provide anecdotal opinion and conjecture.

You've got the right to post either one, obviously. But one of them is going to be valid, anf the other begins and ends with the individual.

[LagunaSol]

thus suddenly admitting that it might in fact be their plan, but now that isn't the "problem" anymore. No, now your argument isn't that it's unlikely that MS has such a plan, now your problem is the audacity to compare two companies with similar business plans.

WTH are you talking about??? I said Xbox is a money pit for Microsoft. CQd44 implied that PS3 is one for Sony as well. I agreed, but pointed out that we weren't currently talking about Sony's stupid business practices, but Microsoft's.

"Moving the goal posts?" Hardly. Sony's gaming strategy this generation is as idiotic as Microsoft's. That doesn't make Microsoft's un-idiotic. And Microsoft happens to be the topic of this discussion.

You fail.

[LagunaSol]

Excuse me, I have to go cash my check from Microsoft now....

Surely they pay you automatically in Xbox Live Points... :p

What can I say. To a conspirationist, everything is all a part of the plan to "get" you.

I'd love to hear your theory on the motivation of the horde of full-time griefers who have of late infested this forum and have nothing good to say about Apple, its products, or its customers. Ever.

Please enlighten me.

[DMann]

WTH are you talking about??? I said Xbox is a money pit for Microsoft. CQd44 implied that PS3 is one for Sony as well. I agreed, but pointed out that we weren't currently talking about Sony's stupid business practices, but Microsoft's.To claim that the goal of the business plan for XBox is to lose money intentionally for the 8+ years of its incarnation is truly laughable - the quantity of hoops that a company will jump through, just to cry "me too," is beyond belief.

Surely they pay you automatically in Xbox Live Points... :pAll of which are soon to expire. (http://www.unscripted360.com/2008/07/02/fyi-microsoft-points-expire/)

[Rodimus Prime]

To claim that the goal of the business plan for XBox is to lose money intentionally for the 8+ years of its incarnation is truly laughable - the quantity of hoops that a company will jump through, just to cry "me too," is beyond belief.

All of which are soon to expire. (http://www.unscripted360.com/2008/07/02/fyi-microsoft-points-expire/)

by you logic you think 401k are stupid or have been the past few years because they dropped 50% or so in value in one year.

The Xbox project is a lot like 401k. A long term investment.

For 2008 and 2009 you have to cut Microsoft some slack on the 360 turning a profit. Like everyone else they are effect by the resesion so income is done but fix cost do not drop or at least not nearly as much.

The 360 I believe one year did turn a slight profit for the year.

Btw the key words for the Xbox project is LONG TERM. Hell if you look back at when the Xbox project was first launch MS even admited that it did not have any hope of it turning a profit for over 10 years. I believe they were looking 20 years down the road.

the Xbox and the 360 never intended to turn a profit. now the 3rd gen I expect to start seeing profit out of it.

The 360 to Microsoft could easily be called a loss leader. They are giving them accesses to a lot of other networks and projects that can turn a profit....
But remember the key works LONG TERM. and remember Long term is measured in years to decades.

you have to give microsoft credit. They had the balls and the guts to do such a huge long term investment. They knew going in that there was little if any hope of even starting to turn a profit after 10 years. Microsoft has both the balls and the money to go for a project that success is going to take decades to see.

[LagunaSol]

And I'm getting dizzy from the people who believe that Microsoft must be paying people to counter the misinformation being posted on MacRumours.

It turns out you're right - there's no such thing as paid Microsoft astrotufers covertly spreading FUD about competitors.

http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2009/09/24/want-to-troll-the-gt5-date-dont-get-caught/

Oh wait, I meant to say it turns out you're wrong.

You wanna bet some of these tools are right here with us on MacRumors? Yeah - you don't want to take that bet.

[LagunaSol]

The Xbox project is a lot like 401k. A long term investment.

Yeah, the Xbox project is just like a 401k - a 401k where, you know, you find yourself in the hole ten billion dollars or so after a few years but you just know things are gonna turn around before you retire (hopefully). :rolleyes:

Glad my 401k isn't like your mythical Xbox 401k...

you have to give microsoft credit. They had the balls and the guts to do such a huge long term investment. They knew going in that there was little if any hope of even starting to turn a profit after 10 years. Microsoft has both the balls and the money to go for a project that success is going to take decades to see.

I think when you said balls you meant to say stupidity.

[DMann]

by you logic you think 401k are stupid or have been the past few years because they dropped 50% or so in value in one year.

The Xbox project is a lot like 401k. A long term investment.Not really. By your logic, depositing +$20 Billion into a 401K, having it all evaporate, and then having it earn interest on a mere fraction of the initial investment, is hardly what anyone would consider a sound investment.

For 2008 and 2009 you have to cut Microsoft some slack on the 360 turning a profit. Like everyone else they are effect by the resesion so income is done but fix cost do not drop or at least not nearly as much.I suppose then, we need to cut them additional slack for when the economy was doing especially well, before the recession, from 2002-2006:

http://static.seekingalpha.com/wp-content/seekingalpha/images/msft_homeentdivopincome_2.jpg

Should we also be cutting Apple slack for doing so well with their products during 2008-09?

Btw the key words for the Xbox project is LONG TERM. Hell if you look back at when the Xbox project was first launch MS even admited that it did not have any hope of it turning a profit for over 10 years. I believe they were looking 20 years down the road.The 360 to Microsoft could easily be called a loss leader. They are giving them accesses to a lot of other networks and projects that can turn a profit....
Let's also be mindfull that if it weren’t for creative accounting in past fiscals, Xbox would remain unprofitable for some additional 6-7 years and $6B-$7B in losses later. Speaking of the warranty charge that was retroactively buried into a previous fiscal, here’s a report on what was really to blame - to save perhaps $10M’s, MSFT designed the graphics chip in-house rather than using an outside expert – eventually resulting in the $1B+ warranty/recall charge. Smart. I don't mean to be overly discouraging, but the XBox will likely be a L-O-N-G TERM LOSS LEADER for the next 30 years and beyond - at this rate, they'll be lucky to recoup 6 out of the +$20 Billion swallowed by this venture, as not even a dramatic surge in sales can place a dent into this fiscal reality.

Yeah, the Xbox project is just like a 401k - a 401k where, you know, you find yourself in the hole ten billion dollars or so after a few years but you just know things are gonna turn around before you retire (hopefully). :rolleyes:

Glad my 401k isn't like your mythical Xbox 401k...



I think when you said balls you meant to say stupidity.+$20

[BongoBanger]

Yes, one would:

"Revenues in the quarter were down 29 percent to $3.1 billion, and it made $1 billion less in operating profit. The Entertainment business (Xbox) saw quarterly revenues decline 25 percent, but managed to reduce operating loses to only $130 million. 1.2 million Xboxes were sold in the quarter, and each Xbox owner has now bought an average of 8.6 games. At least servers and Tools under Bob Muglia seems to be holding up. Its revenues of $3.5 billion were only down by $200 million and its operating profit of $1.3 billion was essentially flat."

http://www.techcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/msf-segment-rev.png

Yeah I know. Not the best quarter.

So where does this show me the projected revenue streams over the next 10 years along with the $20 billion sunk costs that you've quoted?

Also I note the single quarter decline. Do you have a trend graph for the previous, say, six eight quarters and projected revenue for the next, say, 20?

Your assertion is that the Xbox line will never make profit. One quarter's revenue statement - whilst interesting - is insufficient evidence to either support or invalidate that statement.

So if can you post your rationale and the numbers behind it so we can discuss that would be great?

P.S. For some reason you seem to be pointing at the On-line and service division (mainly search) rather than the Entertainment division (Xbox). Is this just bad placement of your arrow?

Yeah, the Xbox project is just like a 401k - a 401k where, you know, you find yourself in the hole ten billion dollars or so after a few years but you just know things are gonna turn around before you retire (hopefully).

Sorry, is it 10 billion or 20? I'm getting confused here.

Perhaps when DMann provides the breakdown we can clear this up once and for all. Mind you, having looked at the revenue chart he posted for the Ents division, the loss appears to be about $6 billion.

Where are all these figures coming from, gentlemen, and which one's are correct?

[DMann]

Yeah I know. Not the best quarter(s).

So where does this show me the projected revenue streams over the next 10 years along with the $20 billion sunk costs that you've quoted?

Also I note the single quarter decline. Do you have a trend graph for the previous, say, six eight quarters and projected revenue for the next, say, 20?

Your assertion is that the Xbox line will never make profit. One quarter's revenue statement - whilst interesting - is insufficient evidence to either support or invalidate that statement.

So if can you post your rationale and the numbers behind it so we can discuss that would be great?

P.S. For some reason you seem to be pointing at the On-line and service division (mainly search) rather than the Entertainment division (Xbox). Is this just bad placement of your arrow?

Sorry, is it 10 billion or 20? I'm getting confused here.

Perhaps when DMann provides the breakdown we can clear this up once and for all. Mind you, having looked at the revenue chart he posted for the Ents division, the loss appears to be about $6 billion.

Where are all these figures coming from, gentlemen, and which one's are correct?It was actually over $21 Billion (http://seekingalpha.com/article/32642-when-will-microsoft-own-up-to-the-xbox-360-bomb) as of Q2 2007:

"Making money, e.g., the creation of long-term shareholder value, has got to be the ultimate driver of Microsoft's gaming (and H&E) strategy, right? Well, after five years and over $21 billion invested all they've got to show for it is $5.4 billion of cumulative operating losses, and Xbox 360 doesn't appear to be the silver bullet to turn things around. I think it is also interesting to note that Microsoft's actual disclosure shows only Revenues and Operating Losses; I backed into and show EXPENSES below for explanatory purposes"

http://static.seekingalpha.com/wp-content/seekingalpha/images/msft_homeentdivopincome_2.jpg

"Why might it be that Microsoft has strayed from the classic Revenues - Expenses = Profits (Losses) disclosure? Perhaps because they don't want investors to focus on the fact that over $21 billion - the market cap of a sizable independent company - has been invested in a business that has performed so poorly, with unclear prospects for improvement. Could this be the reason? Hmmm."

Please feel free to read the article for more clarification, lest we need to hold your hand any further in an effort to thoroughly convince you

[BongoBanger]

Dmann,

Again all very well but your article is from April 2007 - over 2 years ago and less than 18 months into the revenue cycle and predating both Halo 3 and Call of Duty Modern Warfare. I repeat:

"Do you have projected total costs versus revenues for the next 10 years or not?"

Now, to put things in context...

Firstly, the Xbox line represents Microsoft's first stab at consumer hardware (mice and keyboards excluded) and, frankly, their endeavours could be at best described as comical and, if we're being honest, incompetent.

I can understand the first iteration of the 360 suffering faults resulting in a high return rate but to make the same error with the second iteration (in terms of motherboards) is absolutely laughable and represents an appalling approach to quality control. It is quite clear that MS do not have the experience of hardware manufacture that Apple do and because of that they have accrued unnecessary expenses and pushed their profitability point way into the future.

Bluntly, whichever way you look at it the launch of the Xbox 360 was a disaster. There is simply no arguing over this point.

However, despite this the console has been very well received and the thing that amazes me is that despite the high failure rate and attendant publicity it still sells very well. Why? Simply because it is an excellent platform with an extremely attractive on-line model and a lot of very good games and services. In other words the platform itself is awesome and anyone who doubts that it being more than a little foolish.

So, in summary, did MS make a hash of the launch and accrue unnecessary costs due to their incompetence which have pushed, say, a 10 year profit model out to perhaps a 15 year profit model? Undoubtedly. Have MS also firmly cemented their place in the console arena, built an established community and will inevitably expand their sphere of influence? Absolutely - and this despite the reliability issues and their failure to anticipate the Wii.

My issues is not with MS making a hash of the launch (which they did with Vista and for which I sincerely hope MS have had the sense to make the appropriate heads roll), it is with your assertion that the Xbox line will never be profitable. I do not believe this to be the case and until you can provide me with future projections for revenue and growth that will remain so.

As a final point, I prefer PC Gaming and sold my Xbox 360 because a PC is rthe better tool. However, as a decent PC rig will cost a minimum of £700 I can see why the went into the console arena.

[DMann]

Dmann,

Again all very well but your article is from April 2007 - over 2 years ago and less than 18 months into the revenue cycle and predating both Halo 3 and Call of Duty Modern Warfare. I repeat:

"Do you have projected total costs versus revenues for the next 10 years or not?"

Now, to put things in context...

Firstly, the Xbox line represents Microsoft's first stab at consumer hardware (mice and keyboards excluded) and, frankly, their endeavours could be at best described as comical and, if we're being honest, incompetent.

I can understand the first iteration of the 360 suffering faults resulting in a high return rate but to make the same error with the second iteration (in terms of motherboards) is absolutely laughable and represents an appalling approach to quality control. It is quite clear that MS do not have the experience of hardware manufacture that Apple do and because of that they have accrued unnecessary expenses and pushed their profitability point way into the future.

Bluntly, whichever way you look at it the launch of the Xbox 360 was a disaster. There is simply no arguing over this point.

However, despite this the console has been very well received and the thing that amazes me is that despite the high failure rate and attendant publicity it still sells very well. Why? Simply because it is an excellent platform with an extremely attractive on-line model and a lot of very good games and services. In other words the platform itself is awesome and anyone who doubts that it being more than a little foolish.

So, in summary, did MS make a hash of the launch and accrue unnecessary costs due to their incompetence which have pushed, say, a 10 year profit model out to perhaps a 15 year profit model? Undoubtedly. Have MS also firmly cemented their place in the console arena, built an established community and will inevitably expand their sphere of influence? Absolutely - and this despite the reliability issues and their failure to anticipate the Wii.

My issues is not with MS making a hash of the launch (which they did with Vista and for which I sincerely hope MS have had the sense to make the appropriate heads roll), it is with your assertion that the Xbox line will never be profitable. I do not believe this to be the case and until you can provide me with future projections for revenue and growth that will remain so.

As a final point, I prefer PC Gaming and sold my Xbox 360 because a PC is rthe better tool. However, as a decent PC rig will cost a minimum of £700 I can see why the went into the console arena.Then, why don't you create a projection table for how Microsoft could possibly recoup a combined $26 Billion dollar loss over 30 years? FYI, due to the very high subsidies, the XBox has a very slim profit margin. Even if they sold over 2,000,000 units per year, with modest percentages from game sales, this would be a daunting task, at the very least. It will be interesting to see how your projections come out.

[joe0603]

lets just hope microsoft has not just made a good looking product that does not work like windows 7 which blue screens everytime i try to revove a program

:apple::apple::apple::apple::apple::apple::apple::apple::apple::apple::apple:

[joe0603]

lets just hope microsoft has not just made a good looking product that does not work like windows 7 which blue screens everytime i try to remove a program

:apple::apple::apple::apple::apple:

[kdarling]

Just think of XBox as Microsoft's version of Apple TV. They're hobbies. AKA market penetrators.

Anyway, thought this was a thread about tablets... or in this case, booklets.

I have to agree with those who say using handwriting for input is an odd choice these days. Even those of us who grew up writing everything, including term papers (and in my case, engineering drawings), have pretty bad script abilities these days.

OTOH, when you need a keyboard for mass data entry, a virtual one is horrible to use... you can't touch type and your fingers get numb from hitting the glass.

Booklets seem destined to a niche, artistic work or home reader market. Too big for a pocket, not big enough for professional use. Thoughts?

[MorphingDragon]

It turns out you're right - there's no such thing as paid Microsoft astrotufers covertly spreading FUD about competitors.

http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2009/09/24/want-to-troll-the-gt5-date-dont-get-caught/

Oh wait, I meant to say it turns out you're wrong.

You wanna bet some of these tools are right here with us on MacRumors? Yeah - you don't want to take that bet.

Here is a prime site for stuff like that:
http://linuxhaters.blogspot.com/

[DMann]

Just think of XBox as Microsoft's version of Apple TV. They're hobbies. AKA market penetrators.Sorry, that doesn't fly with shareholders. Besides, a hobby responsible for a quarter trillion dollar loss is in no way comparable to Apple's.

OTOH, when you need a keyboard for mass data entry, a virtual one is horrible to use... you can't touch type and your fingers get numb from hitting the glass.A blue-tooth keyboard would be essential for mass appeal. I imagine one which would be similar to the design of the current wireless iMac keyboard, but even thinner and more compact, running on thin lithium-ion batteries.

Booklets seem destined to a niche, artistic work or home reader market. Too big for a pocket, not big enough for professional use. Thoughts?This is where flexible OLED might actually fit the bill. They are still a few years away from refinement in regard to brightness, transflective pixels, and flexibility without distortion. Here's hoping for a rapid development of that.

[CQd44]

lets just hope microsoft has not just made a good looking product that does not work like windows 7 which blue screens everytime i try to remove a program

:apple::apple::apple::apple::apple:


Funny, I can uninstall programs just fine. What in the world are you doing wrong?

[Journojulz]

Expose is a solution to multi windows but is is not a solution for Multiple Monitors. I am going to assume you have never used a multiple monitor set up before because then you would understand how nice it is to have one.

Oh no worries - i do use multi screens and they are a particularly aweseome way to work.

I use it for final cut, design work and even hook up the tv as a second monitor so the family can watch streaming tv while i work :D

My point was more to do with the specifcs of mobile working and what percentage of your time would be used moving things between screens.

You can only really work on one screen at a specific moment, so you are effectively doubling the weight and bulk while halving its battery life for a feature you may not use half of the time.

For a portable machine, the little ergonomic considerations matter.

A heavier, wider form and reduced battery life would put the double 7" screen machine in the "briefcase and coffee bar" category for me - competing with other laptops. And it would do very well, twin screens do rock.

However a single screen 'iPad' form would be a 'pocket' option, something you could stand up and use on the tube or in a queue.

[DMann]

So, in summary, did MS make a hash of the launch and accrue unnecessary costs due to their incompetence which have pushed, say, a 10 year profit model out to perhaps a 15 year profit model? Undoubtedly.You seem to be aware of a revised 15 year profit model. Kindly post your 15 year profit projection table for the XBox, as this would clarify a great deal of confusion and uncertainty regarding its current status and future.

[Pocket lint]

WTH are you talking about??? I said Xbox is a money pit for Microsoft. CQd44 implied that PS3 is one for Sony as well. I agreed, but pointed out that we weren't currently talking about Sony's stupid business practices, but Microsoft's.

"Moving the goal posts?" Hardly. Sony's gaming strategy this generation is as idiotic as Microsoft's. That doesn't make Microsoft's un-idiotic. And Microsoft happens to be the topic of this discussion.

You fail.

I "fail"? How old are you?

Seriously, I quoted your posts, and there was nothing there to misinterpret. You were indeed moving the goalposts. The only "fail" here is your inability to even notice you're doing so.





I'd love to hear your theory on the motivation of the horde of full-time griefers who have of late infested this forum and have nothing good to say about Apple, its products, or its customers. Ever.

Please enlighten me.

Why would you again "love to hear" anything? First of all, you really don't want to hear anything contrary to your conspiracy theories, as is evident from the continued accusations from your hand: Anyone and everyone who aren't blinded by the Apple RDF, must be on the take by Microsoft.

The burden of proof is not on me. You're the one making the accusations that everyone not in utter awe of anything Apple and not expressing blind hatred of Microsoft must be paid for by Microsoft. Therefore the burden of proof is on you.

I have no idea what you mean by a "sudden influx". Most of the people you're arguing against in this thread have been here for years (I'm the noteable exception). However, I have been reading this site for several years (four, I think), and you're right to a certain extent that in the last year or so, more people have been taking the blinders off. But that doesn't mean that everyone not applauding Apple for every move and every product must be paid posters for Microsoft.
Please. Try to apply Occam's Razor to your thinking.

[kdarling]

However, I have been reading this site for several years (four, I think), and you're right to a certain extent that in the last year or so, more people have been taking the blinders off.

I think the reason is pretty simple: iPhones are not bought by just Apple fans. I'd even venture to guess that with so many phones and ipods sold, the majority of their owners have PCs.

So what used to be an Apple-lover-only site, now has a huge influx of people who are not awed by Jobs, his RDF, Apple secrecy, or have blind love of every Apple device and willing obedience to Apple control. (Okay, I'm being dramatic, but you know what I mean.)

[notjustjay]

Every good thread turns into this eventually. Two or three people, going at each other, with increasingly longer and longer posts, clever insults, and the rest of us just stand by and watch.

*grabs popcorn*

[Pocket lint]

I think the reason is pretty simple: iPhones are not bought by just Apple fans. I'd even venture to guess that with so many phones and ipods sold, the majority of their owners have PCs.

So what used to be an Apple-lover-only site, now has a huge influx of people who are not awed by Jobs, his RDF, Apple secrecy, blind love of every Apple device, or willing obedience to Apple control.

I think that's true to certain degree. I also think the opposite is true: That some of these "new" Apple users are so in awe with their new device and everything Apple that they think that everyone else should conform to "The Apple Way".

I also think that some "old" Mac users are done with brand loyalty wrt Apple, since their use of Macs have taken a backseat on Apple's priority list the last couple of years, if that makes sense?

[*LTD*]

Every good thread turns into this eventually. Two or three people, going at each other, with increasingly longer and longer posts, clever insults, and the rest of us just stand by and watch.

*grabs popcorn*


Are you not entertained??


http://a601.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/37/l_a52b84f36716548a10063411552b5f98.jpg

[Journojulz]

Increasingly less as time goes on to be honest. ;)

[*LTD*]

I think that's true to certain degree. I also think the opposite is true: That some of these "new" Apple users are so in awe with their new device and everything Apple that they think that everyone else should conform to "The Apple Way".

I also think that some "old" Mac users are done with brand loyalty wrt Apple, since their use of Macs have taken a backseat on Apple's priority list the last couple of years, if that makes sense?

I've been in awe since 1994. Even with all of System 7's little flaws - the extensions, the RAM allocating, etc., it was still a thing of beauty. I miss ClarisWorks.

[Pocket lint]

I've been in awe since 1994. Even with all of System 7's little flaws - the extensions, the RAM allocating, etc., it was still a thing of beauty. I miss ClarisWorks.

I have a cd with Appleworks if you feel nostalgic.

Edit:

Somewhat back on track, I think that brand loyalty arrests competition and therefore progress. This gadget from Microsoft is a good thing, even if you don't want to buy it yourself. I know I'd love to have on of those, but I also am almost certain I never will, since gadgets like these seldomly works well for lefties like me.

[diamond.g]

Sorry, that doesn't fly with shareholders. Besides, a hobby responsible for a quarter trillion dollar loss is in no way comparable to Apple's.

Eh the shareholders seem to have been fine with it so far (hence why the 360 is still available and wasn't pulled back like say the Dreamcast was).

[DMann]

I've been in awe since 1994. Even with all of System 7's little flaws - the extensions, the RAM allocating, etc., it was still a thing of beauty. I miss ClarisWorks.Those were the days. Even if needing to resort to Conflict Catcher from time to time, the user experience was magical. ClarisWorks was awesome, as was HyperCard, Word Perfect, AfterDark, (screen saver) MacDraw, MacPaint, Lotus, etc. Wonderful memories!

[*LTD*]

Those were the days. Even if needing to resort to Conflict Catcher from time to time, the user experience was magical. ClarisWorks was awesome, as was HyperCard, Word Perfect, AfterDark, (screen saver) MacDraw, MacPaint, Lotus, etc. Wonderful memories!

Wasn't Myst done entirely in Hypercard? There's another amazing piece of Apple tech.

http://www.wired.com/gadgets/mac/commentary/cultofmac/2002/08/54370

[kdarling]

Those were the days. Even if needing to resort to Conflict Catcher from time to time, the user experience was magical. ClarisWorks was awesome, as was HyperCard, Word Perfect, AfterDark, (screen saver) MacDraw, MacPaint, Lotus, etc. Wonderful memories!

Indeed, that was when Apple was about getting computing into everyone's hands, not about controlling our access to it.

Hypercard was a great example of Apple trying to give power to common people. Now, Apple refuses any kind of interpreted code on the phone/touch because it might cut into their app store profits.

[DMann]

Wasn't Myst done entirely in Hypercard? There's another amazing piece of Apple tech.

http://www.wired.com/gadgets/mac/commentary/cultofmac/2002/08/54370Bill Atkinson's the man! He designed MacPaint as well. I believe you're right, Myst was entirely done in HyperCard! I still have a set of Version 3 disks, as well as the first Myst CD. :eek:

Indeed, that was when Apple was about getting computing into everyone's hands, not about controlling our access to it.

Hypercard was a great example of Apple trying to give power to common people. Now, Apple refuses any kind of interpreted code on the phone/touch because it might cut into their app store profits.No doubt, that sucks. Those were truly liberating times. I suppose that's why we have Jail Break.

[BongoBanger]

You seem to be aware of a revised 15 year profit model. Kindly post your 15 year profit projection table for the XBox, as this would clarify a great deal of confusion and uncertainty regarding its current status and future.

I used the word 'perhaps'. That said, I'll have a stab at a revenue projection model. It'll be interesting if nothing more comes out of it.

Incidentally you mention a quarter of a trillion dollars as a loss. Wouldn't that be $250 billion dollars? That doesn't sound right.

[DMann]

I used the word 'perhaps'. That said, I'll have a stab at a revenue projection model. It'll be interesting if nothing more comes out of it.

Incidentally you mention a quarter of a trillion dollars as a loss. Wouldn't that be $250 billion dollars? That doesn't sound right.No, you're quite right, I meant $25 Billion, $26B to be closer to the actual figure. It would be great if you would "have a stab" at a revenue projection, whenever you have the chance.

[notjustjay]

I miss ClarisWorks.

Me too. My first experience with desktop publishing was learning to use ClarisWorks to put out a daily newspaper at summer camp. Every day I had two hours to come up with a full double-sided page of news to put out at the lunch table. No digital cameras back then, so we couldn't just fill up with photos. It was swaths of text, and clip-art. It was so incredibly easy. The closest thing I found on the PC was Visio (before it was bought up by Microsoft and Officified). OmniGraffle perhaps is close on the Mac. But not really.

I actually bought Appleworks for my G4 and did newsletters in that, and Visio, for a long time because, frankly, nothing else was as easy.

[Rodimus Prime]

I used the word 'perhaps'. That said, I'll have a stab at a revenue projection model. It'll be interesting if nothing more comes out of it.

Incidentally you mention a quarter of a trillion dollars as a loss. Wouldn't that be $250 billion dollars? That doesn't sound right.

it might be to the point we should just give up because Dmann still does not understand the meaning of LONG TERM INVESTMENT does he.

When the Xbox was first launch it was stated back then that MS knew going in that just on the Xbox it would take 8 years to just break even just on the Xbox and they stated that was with out a new consel launch that they knew they would be doing.

Xbox and the 360 both were never planned to make profit.

Xbox was an upfront cost to get into the counsel market so huge loss on it was expect.

360 goal was to stop the bleed and start to break even and use new technology.

Next gen is were I expect profit to start being shown.

Microsoft expect to be around well past our life time and to them this is a very long term project and they stated that back 8 years ago that they intended to stay in this market and start tracing it back you start noticing the operational losses for the Xbox project over the years has been reducing on average. That tells me they are on the right track.

But you still fail to understand the term LONG TERM investment. You seem to think long term is 2-3 years but Microsoft looking at long term as 20-30+ years.

[*LTD*]

it might be to the point we should just give up because Dmann still does not understand the meaning of LONG TERM INVESTMENT does he.

When the Xbox was first launch it was stated back then that MS knew going in that just on the Xbox it would take 8 years to just break even just on the Xbox and they stated that was with out a new consel launch that they knew they would be doing.

Xbox and the 360 both were never planned to make profit.

Xbox was an upfront cost to get into the counsel market so huge loss on it was expect.

360 goal was to stop the bleed and start to break even and use new technology.

Next gen is were I expect profit to start being shown.

Microsoft expect to be around well past our life time and to them this is a very long term project and they stated that back 8 years ago that they intended to stay in this market and start tracing it back you start noticing the operational losses for the Xbox project over the years has been reducing on average. That tells me they are on the right track.

But you still fail to understand the term LONG TERM investment. You seem to think long term is 2-3 years but Microsoft looking at long term as 20-30+ years.

That completely defies any and all sense. MS' underperformance is being excused because they:

a) have enough money
b) are exepcted to be around for a while

Your explanation doesn't simply apply to the xbox franchise. What's dangerous is that if MS is so cavalier with the xbox, imagine what else they treat similarly. Well, no need to imagine, enter the Zune fiasco, years ago and today. Same for Windows Mobile. MS can afford to be uncompetitive, late, or simply wrong, because they can hide behind the "long-term investment" and hobby/experiment excuse.

So users can happily wait on the order of years to get what other companies give them today, and MS can tell investors that they can afford to wait because it's all a "long-term investment" which is really a euphemism for "we'll eventually get it right someday."

This all means that because MS is large and has deep pcokets they have a license to fail repeatdly, both in terms of their own performance (like the previous quarter) and with consumers who look to the company for tech innovation. It's a recipe for a long, slow decline.

You've basically told us that MS lazy, that it's ok because they can afford it.

And if this is truly Microsoft's MO, then small wonder they are shown up regularly by a company half their size, half their resources, half their R&D budget - a company that seems to treat every year as do-or-die.

[Mattie Num Nums]

Indeed, that was when Apple was about getting computing into everyone's hands, not about controlling our access to it.

Hypercard was a great example of Apple trying to give power to common people. Now, Apple refuses any kind of interpreted code on the phone/touch because it might cut into their app store profits.

The hayday of Apple computing. Back when Apple was about being the number 1 desktop to the masses. Now Apple is a snooty PR machine. They make great products, I use them, support them, but being a mac user since the 80's I can tell you things have changed A LOT with Apple.

[LagunaSol]

But you still fail to understand the term LONG TERM investment. You seem to think long term is 2-3 years but Microsoft looking at long term as 20-30+ years.

I think the failure to understand here is coming from you. A few years from now Microsoft will have to release the Xbox 720 (or whatever they'll call it), which will sell for a loss (again) - and the cycle of bleeding will start all over. This is a LONG TERM investment that will continue to lose money LONG TERM. It's a silly, no-win business model. If Microsoft owned the consumer media market, it might make some sense. But they don't. That space for now and the foreseeable future belongs to Apple.

And smart consumers who are buying game consoles this holiday season will see Sony's offering with Blu Ray, built-in wireless and free online gaming for an equivalent price to the Xbox. Guess which they'll choose? The only option for Microsoft now is to slash prices again. Goodbye profit. It will never end.

But keep on spinning this if it makes you feel better. And Microsoft fanboys call Apple users naive. Wow. At some point people (businesses) will realize they don't need $400 office application suites and Microsoft will be left with its money-losing Xbox and Zune operations, scraping along selling OEM copies of Windows to cutthroat hardware manufacturers for $50 a pop. Of course you realize that, which is why the vitriol from the WinBots is so strong these days.

The panic is palpable.

[Rodimus Prime]

I think the failure to understand here is coming from you. A few years from now Microsoft will have to release the Xbox 720 (or whatever they'll call it), which will sell for a loss (again) - and the cycle of bleeding will start all over. This is a LONG TERM investment that will continue to lose money LONG TERM. It's a silly, no-win business model. If Microsoft owned the consumer media market, it might make some sense. But they don't. That space for now and the foreseeable future belongs to Apple.

And smart consumers who are buying game consoles this holiday season will see Sony's offering with Blu Ray, built-in wireless and free online gaming for an equivalent price to the Xbox. Guess which they'll choose? The only option for Microsoft now is to slash prices again. Goodbye profit. It will never end.

But keep on spinning this if it makes you feel better. And Microsoft fanboys call Apple users naive. Wow. At some point people (businesses) will realize they don't need $400 office application suites and Microsoft will be left with its money-losing Xbox and Zune operations, scraping along selling OEM copies of Windows to cutthroat hardware manufacturers for $50 a pop. Of course you realize that, which is why the vitriol from the WinBots is so strong these days.

The panic is palpable.

You sure Apple own the media market... Apple may have the portal media market down with the iPod but apple failed when it comes to connecting the TV with the computer. Apple failed big time and there attempted at that market is a joke among the tech world. The Apple TV is a running Joke.

What I find is a lot of people fail to see some of the huge offering the 360 brings to the table. Once of the 360 biggest assets is how it ties in with computers on the network playing media files off the computer to the TV. Then of course the tie in with netflex. My girlfriend loves my 360 not for the games which is my big thing but for the netflex.

One thing Microsoft got very right was when it comes to connecting the computer to the TV. Microsoft saw the modders of the orginal Xbox doing that and hell they saw people modding the orginal Xbox for no other reason that to stream media over the network.

[LagunaSol]

Once of the 360 biggest assets is how it ties in with computers on the network playing media files off the computer to the TV.

Yeah, and guess what they're streaming to their TVs via their Xboxes? Content they're buying in iTunes.

I guess Apple should thank Microsoft for taking a huge loss on hardware to give people an easy way to use their iTunes content.

[Pocket lint]

Yeah, and guess what they're streaming to their TVs via their Xboxes? Content they're buying in iTunes.

I guess Apple should thank Microsoft for taking a huge loss on hardware to give people an easy way to use their iTunes content.

Talk about a strawman.

Do you realise how much (or little, if you will) content is bought on the iTunes vs. bought other places, and on physical plastic platters (you know, those shiny things)?

It's quite a lot when it comes to volume, but in percentages, not that much.
I, for one, don't use lossy formats, and I don't want to waste my time with drm, nor someone elses rips. Be it music or movies.

It seems that to you the entire world revolves around Apple, and - to you - it might just do that. But for the rest of us, we use what works the best for us. FOr some things, Apple's products might be a part of that, but to very few people it's the only way.

[*LTD*]

The hayday of Apple computing. Back when Apple was about being the number 1 desktop to the masses. Now Apple is a snooty PR machine. They make great products, I use them, support them, but being a mac user since the 80's I can tell you things have changed A LOT with Apple.

Are you talking pre-1990's Apple here?

[LagunaSol]

Talk about a strawman.

Do you realise how much (or little, if you will) content is bought on the iTunes vs. bought other places, and on physical plastic platters (you know, those shiny things)?

Please. I'm not the one who brought up the magic of streaming content to the TV through the Xbox. I only made the valid point that most of the content people are streaming these days, aside from stuff ripped from physical media, is being bought through iTunes, not through Xbox Live or any other online service. So the argument that the Xbox is somehow going to be a windfall of cash for Microsoft someday because people will be buying all their content directly from Microsoft is bogus.

Sidenote: I have a PS3 for streaming my iTunes-purchased media, not an AppleTV, so your "slave to Apple" accusation is bogus as well. Not surprising.

[Pocket lint]

Please. I'm not the one who brought up the magic of streaming content to the TV through the Xbox. I only made the valid point that most of the content people are streaming these days, aside from stuff ripped from physical media, is being bought through iTunes, not through Xbox Live or any other online service. So the argument that the Xbox is somehow going to be a windfall of cash for Microsoft someday because people will be buying all their content directly from Microsoft is bogus.

Once again you have shown you will move the goalposts as you see fit.

Instead of having to explain everything in detail once again, let me just say that you first claimed that what people streamed on those X-boxes were contents bought from iTunes, thus implying that that were the place most everyone got their digital content.



Sidenote: I have a PS3 for streaming my iTunes-purchased media, not an AppleTV, so your "slave to Apple" accusation is bogus as well. Not surprising.

Not in the least. Your rhetorics, Apple-centric views, and pseudo arguments speaks for themselves. Although, I don't see how you buying your contents from iTunes in order to stream somehow makes your world and arguments revolve less around Apple?

Oh, I get it: Since you have a non-Apple product somewhere in that Apple mix, that must mean my argument is moot. Thank god, you're there to correct me when I make such outrageous claims :rolleyes:

[LagunaSol]

Do you realise how much (or little, if you will) content is bought on the iTunes vs. bought other places, and on physical plastic platters (you know, those shiny things)?

So apparently you're arguing that Microsoft plans to dominate the sales of optical discs through their Xbox platform (you know, the platform that supported the dead HD DVD format and has no answer for Blu Ray). Right? Because this is exactly what you're saying.

Good luck with that.

Once again you have shown you will move the goalposts as you see fit.

Instead of having to explain everything in detail once again, let me just say that you first claimed that what people streamed on those X-boxes were contents bought from iTunes, thus implying that that were the place most everyone got their digital content.

Yep. True fact. DIGITALLY-PURCHASED DIGITAL CONTENT. You know, exactly the same content that Microsoft hopes to dominate in order to make its Xbox profitable. Some decade. Yet right now this space is completely owned by Apple.

This is like debating a rock. I make a point, you reiterate the exact point I just made, then use phrases like "moving the goalposts" and "strawman argument" when you clearly don't know what either actually means and you have nothing of substance to add to the debate, aside from throwing out the classic "fanboy" accusation.

Enjoy your Xbox 360 and your Zune. Or whatever Uncle Ballmer tells you to use today. (Works both ways eh - how 'bout that.)

[Rodimus Prime]

This is like debating a rock. I make a point, you reiterate the exact point I just made, then use phrases like "moving the goalposts" and "strawman argument" when you clearly don't know what either actually means and you have nothing of substance to add to the debate, aside from throwing out the classic "fanboy" accusation.

Enjoy your Xbox 360 and your Zune. Or whatever Uncle Ballmer tells you to use today. (Works both ways eh - how 'bout that.)

you right is like debating with a rock. you are the Rock.

Unlike Apple Microsoft will see potentional in a product and keep working with it to take advantage of it.

Apple on the other hand if something does not work right off the bat they drop it like a Red head step child. Apple screwed up the Cube gave up on it. Apple screwed up Apple TV and pretty much does little to improve it. Apple had the chance to enter the consul market but screwed up early on and never bother to try to fix the problem. Hell the entry cost back then were a lot less. Not the billions that Sony and MS had to pay to enter.

[LagunaSol]

Apple on the other hand if something does not work right off the bat they drop it like a Red head step child.

Yeah, you're right - Apple are real morons for not dumping billions into failed products year after year after year. :rolleyes:

Perhaps you and your tag team MicroBud Pocket Lint can enlighten us all on how exactly Microsoft is going to turn the Xbox into a cash machine. Please. I would love to hear it. You both keep throwing out these broad generalities about how this is a long path to domination by Microsoft blah blah blah, yet you offer no specifics (what a surprise). Here are the existing facts to consider:

1) Apple is dominating digital downloads (which can be (and are being) streamed to Xbox or PS3 easily).
2) Nintendo is dominating the gaming market (Wii + DS) and Apple is making big gains with casual gamers with the iPhone/iPod Touch.
3) Sony will dominate the optical video market with Blu Ray - Microsoft has absolutely no stake or position in the optical disc market at all (aside from their games - see #2 above). You know, "those shiny things."

Please, tell us which niche exactly Microsoft plans to make its tens of billions of dollars in. I can't wait. Try to put something substantive into it.

*Pops some popcorn*

[Rodimus Prime]

Yeah, you're right - Apple are real morons for not dumping billions into failed products year after year after year. :rolleyes:

Perhaps you and your tag team MicroBud Pocket Lint can enlighten us all on how exactly Microsoft is going to turn the Xbox into a cash machine. Please. I would love to hear it. You both keep throwing out these broad generalities about how this is a long path to domination by Microsoft blah blah blah, yet you offer no specifics (what a surprise). Here are the existing facts to consider:

1) Apple is dominating digital downloads (which can be (and are being) streamed to Xbox or PS3 easily).
2) Nintendo is dominating the gaming market (Wii + DS) and Apple is making big gains with casual gamers with the iPhone/iPod Touch.
3) Sony will dominate the optical video market with Blu Ray - Microsoft has absolutely no stake or position in the optical disc market at all (aside from their games - see #2 above). You know, "those shiny things."

Please, tell us which niche exactly Microsoft plans to make its tens of billions of dollars in. I can't wait. Try to put something substantive into it.

*Pops some popcorn*

First market 3 neither the Sony nor the 360 are really in. those at best are bonus features.

You also miss a market. The 360 is not competing the casual gamer market. And the iphone/Touch are crap in those market. They are time wasting games at best. I call them good cell phone games but still cell phone games. Also that is hand held.

The market you miss is not the casual gamer market but in the game 360 is good at which is a little pass casual. Wii makes party games and damn good party games but strip out those short games Wii is not as nice. It sucks for FPS and sports games.

Microsoft and Sony compete there. Now in that area Sony has bluray over Microsoft. Microsoft beats them in teh other extra. The Microsoft arcade give the casusal games out for some people that are really nice for those quick games like the Wii. Not as nice but still really nice.

The 360 also is a great media center extender (AKA connecting computer to TV) something apple failed at and offering is complete crap.


You missed the point on apple is if something does not work right off the bat they do not even try to make it better they give up on it. They fail to use potentional that is there. Microsoft takes a project that has potentional and works on it. Apple does not.

Oh btw those nice DVR that we all love. Can you guess who makes the OS for most of those DVR's out there that allow you to stream video off one DVR to multiple TV.... if you don't know it is a Microsoft OS. In the nice system page it will tell you it is windows CE.
Stuff Microsoft is learning off the 360 they are putting into those same DVRs. makes you wonder.

you call it a failed project but I see Microsoft taking potential and making it work. Apple on the other had does not bother because they are either to blind or lack the guts to take the chance to do it.

[LagunaSol]

you call it a failed project but I see Microsoft taking potential and making it work.

In all that talk you still didn't really mention anything specific that Microsoft is going to sell en masse to compensate for its billions of dollars lost. FPS and sports games? Really??? You can only squeeze so much blood from a turnip. The turnip in this case being, of course, Halo.

So this is how it will break down (based on the way things are going now), with the winners in each category:

Apple: digital downloads (music, videos, casual games) and profitable portable hardware
Nintendo: casual gaming, family gaming, mass-market gaming and profitable gaming hardware
Sony: optical media (Blu Ray), hardcore gaming minus money lost on "loss leader" hardware
Microsoft: hardcore gaming minus money lost on "loss leader" hardware

Yeah, I can see them making trillions from that, especially when they have to lose big bucks on hardware to sell the software. :rolleyes:

Seems Microsoft is in the very worst position of the four. Oh well.

Enjoy Planet Delusion, a place that Microsoft executives appear also to inhabit.

Let's just kick back and see how things turn out, hmm??? (Note: I remember the MicroBots talking about Microsoft dominating the console gaming market back when the original Xbox was released way back in 2001. Oops. Apparently we're in for a loooooong wait.)

[puffnstuff]

I like it

[DMann]

it might be to the point we should just give up because Dmann still does not understand the meaning of LONG TERM INVESTMENT does he.What evidence do you have that Microsoft will ever make back a fraction of the astronomical "investment" they have poured into a this hemorrhaging project of "epic" proportions? Had they "invested" that $26,000,000,000 over a twenty year period, with compounded interest, they would have easily earned a quarter trillion dollars. What makes you believe that any of the money, which continues to diminish with extreme subsidies, (selling at a loss to compete) and high frequency warrantee recall charges, will ever be recouped?

[Rodimus Prime]

What evidence do you have that Microsoft will ever make back a fraction of the astronomical "investment" they have poured into a this hemorrhaging project of "epic" proportions? Had they "invested" that $26,000,000,000 over a twenty year period, with compounded interest, they would have easily earned a quarter trillion dollars. What makes you believe that any of the money, which continues to diminish with extreme subsidies, (selling at a loss to compete) and high frequency warrantee recall charges, will ever be recouped?

Please check your math again we already pointed out your poor math skills onces............ you again are WAY WAY off on it. Even at an insane 10% intersted it would still take 7 years to even get to 50bil.
so even after 20 years it still would not cross 200 bil..... And 10% is insane rate to invest at. you can expect 8% on a good year.

[DMann]

In all that talk you still didn't really mention anything specific that Microsoft is going to sell en masse to compensate for its billions of dollars lost. FPS and sports games? Really??? You can only squeeze so much blood from a turnip. The turnip in this case being, of course, Halo.

So this is how it will break down (based on the way things are going now), with the winners in each category:

Apple: digital downloads (music, videos, casual games) and profitable portable hardware
Nintendo: casual gaming, family gaming, mass-market gaming and profitable gaming hardware
Sony: optical media (Blu Ray), hardcore gaming minus money lost on "loss leader" hardware
Microsoft: hardcore gaming minus money lost on "loss leader" hardware

Yeah, I can see them making trillions from that, especially when they have to lose big bucks on hardware to sell the software. :rolleyes:

Seems Microsoft is in the very worst position of the four. Oh well.

Enjoy Planet Delusion, a place that Microsoft executives appear also to inhabit.

Let's just kick back and see how things turn out, hmm??? (Note: I remember the MicroBots talking about Microsoft dominating the console gaming market back when the original Xbox was released way back in 2001. Oops. Apparently we're in for a loooooong wait.)You've said it quite clearly - Planet Delusion. Perhaps it is encapsulated by a Delusional Distortion Field. I think I'll run my company into the ground to "invest" in something that has consistently lost money year, after year, after year, after year, after year, after year, after year, after year....

[DMann]

Please check your math again we already pointed out your poor math skills onces............ you again are WAY WAY off on it. Even at an insane 10% intersted it would still take 7 years to even get to 50bil.
so even after 20 years it still would not cross 200 bil..... And 10% is insane rate to invest at. you can expect 8% on a good year.And come out WAY ahead of this MS abysmal venture. With compound interest rates, options, and other spreads, including bottomed out real estate investments, and small cap investments yes, one can actualy exceed what you call "10% interested", despite your reference to "math skills onces".

If you feel the need to defend this "investment," perhaps you can provide us with a revenue projection for the XBox over the next 20 years, or 60 years for that matter.

[*LTD*]

You've said it quite clearly - Planet Delusion. Perhaps it is encapsulated by a Delusional Distortion Field. I think I'll run my company into the ground to "invest" in something that has consistently lost money year, after year, after year, after year, after year, after year, after year, after year....

Bungie :apple:, we miss you. :(


http://marathon.bungie.org/story/_images/imgm2sneakpic2.jpg

[Pocket lint]

So apparently you're arguing that Microsoft plans to dominate the sales of optical discs through their Xbox platform (you know, the platform that supported the dead HD DVD format and has no answer for Blu Ray). Right? Because this is exactly what you're saying.
You need to read the posts again, because you obviously don't get even the basics, or you're making a strawman on purpose.

Good luck with that.
So, which is it? A strawman on purpose, or just ignorance?



Yep. True fact. DIGITALLY-PURCHASED DIGITAL CONTENT. You know, exactly the same content that Microsoft hopes to dominate in order to make its Xbox profitable. Some decade. Yet right now this space is completely owned by Apple.
A fact is a fact. A fact cannot be untrue. By the very nature a fact is true. Perhaps it's about time you look up words like "content", "analog(ue)" and "digital".

With that said, "digital content" does not necessarily mean "downloads" as you seem to think. A CD is "digital content", just like games are, no matter if they're downloaded or store-bought.

With that remark of yours, I'm amazed you tried arguing that your world didn't revolve around Apple because you supposedly own a PS3 ...


This is like debating a rock. I make a point, you reiterate the exact point I just made,
No, you just think I make the same point as you because you're not aware of what you're saying.

then use phrases like "moving the goalposts" and "strawman argument" when you clearly don't know what either actually means and you have nothing of substance to add to the debate,
LOL, this is coming from someone who argues that "digital contents" equals "iTunes Store" :rolleyes:

aside from throwing out the classic "fanboy" accusation.

It's classic for a reason.

Enjoy your Xbox 360 and your Zune. Or whatever Uncle Ballmer tells you to use today. (Works both ways eh - how 'bout that.)

Actually, it doesn't work both ways. I don't own consoles, and I use a Cowon D2+ for music on the go, a Beomaster 5/Beosound 5 for music at home connected digitally to two Beolab 5s. So no console for me, not for games, and not for streaming, and no Zune for me either. My telly is a small Samsung.
However, I didn't want a computer without an Expresscard, nor one with a glossy screen, and I hurt whenever I use a touch pad for prolonged periods.

Since the newer laptops from Apple have even bigger touchpads than earlier models, glossy screen, no Expresscard slot, and have relatively low resolution per inch, I decided to buy a non-Apple the last time I needed a new computer.

I ended up with a 12" 1440x900 Thinkpad X200s which has a matte screen, a 54mm wide expresscard slot, 10-13 hours of battery life, a superior keyboard and no trackpad at all.

So no, the fanboy-remarks doesn't work both ways, unfortunately for you.

[Marx55]

Apple iTablet specs:

Apple iTablet Design and Technical Specs
http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/apple_itablet_design_and_technical_specs

[*LTD*]

Very interesting:

http://www.macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/report_apple_dictated_light_peak_creation_to_intel/

[xIGmanIx]

And clue us all in on what that has to do with Microsoft's multi-touch tablet/booklet?

Very interesting:

http://www.macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/report_apple_dictated_light_peak_creation_to_intel/

[*LTD*]

And clue us all in on what that has to do with Microsoft's multi-touch tablet/booklet?

It's right there in the article:

Topolsky reports, "What happens next, however, is where the story really gets interesting. Based on what we've learned, Apple will introduce the new standard for its systems around Fall 2010 in a line of Macs destined for back-to-school shoppers -- a follow-up to the 'Spotlight turns to notebooks' event, perhaps. Following the initial launch, there are plans to roll out a low-power variation in 2011, which could lead to more widespread adoption in handhelds and cellphones. The plans from October 2007 show a roadmap that includes Light Peak being introduced to the iPhone / iPod platform to serve as a gateway for multimedia and networking outputs. While the timing doesn't line up, a low-powered Light Peak sounds like the kind of technology that would be perfect for a device with a need for broad connectivity but limited real estate for ports... like a tablet."

[Pocket lint]

Very interesting:

http://www.macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/report_apple_dictated_light_peak_creation_to_intel/

Not related at all, but what we really need is yet another semi-propriety pseudo standard. Let's all use a connection akin to the dock, only optical. Yup, that means even more adaptors and new peripherals for no purpose other than to skimp on the ports available on our computers. :mad:

[xIGmanIx]

right.......so in a thread about a microsoft product you post a link to an apple related rumor? Ok now it makes sense:rolleyes: why is it again you posted it in two separate threads?

It's right there in the article:

Topolsky reports, "What happens next, however, is where the story really gets interesting. Based on what we've learned, Apple will introduce the new standard for its systems around Fall 2010 in a line of Macs destined for back-to-school shoppers -- a follow-up to the 'Spotlight turns to notebooks' event, perhaps. Following the initial launch, there are plans to roll out a low-power variation in 2011, which could lead to more widespread adoption in handhelds and cellphones. The plans from October 2007 show a roadmap that includes Light Peak being introduced to the iPhone / iPod platform to serve as a gateway for multimedia and networking outputs. While the timing doesn't line up, a low-powered Light Peak sounds like the kind of technology that would be perfect for a device with a need for broad connectivity but limited real estate for ports... like a tablet."

[NT1440]

Not related at all, but what we really need is yet another semi-propriety pseudo standard. Let's all use a connection akin to the dock, only optical. Yup, that means even more adaptors and new peripherals for no purpose other than to skimp on the ports available on our computers. :mad:
Uh the point of light peak is to make an all in one connector to make life simpler.......

[Pocket lint]

Uh the point of light peak is to make an all in one connector to make life simpler.......

I know that's the marketing speech. However, we have firewire products, USB 2 products and soon USB 3-products. And since Apple is pushing for a single connector, there is nothing saying we get to keep at least some connections.

Call it whatever you want, but in recent years, the promise of "keeping it simple" from Apple's hand, usually means less choice for the end-user and more adaptors and incompatabilities.

But hey, the computers look simpler.

Edit:
Bold=my emphasis:

Apple [..]reached out to Intel as early as 2007 with plans for an interoperable standard which could handle massive amounts of data and 'replace the multitudinous connector types with a single connector (FireWire, USB, Display interface).
[...]
Cupertino apparently had specific demands for the standard, including the desire for a single port solution, and an insistence that optical was the only logical choice for such a connector type. Based on the documents we had a look at, the short-term plans seem to involve a one-size-fits-all solution (somehow allowing for multiple connections but avoiding 'double dongles') which would enable users to connect a variety of devices into a single Light Peak port, while slightly longer-term plans will mean Light Peak obviates the need for almost every type of connector you use today. Translation: Apple products in the near future could come equipped with only a Light Peak port (or ports) to handle your networking, display driving, and general connectivity."

Now, first of all, seen in the light of the ditching of numerous ports across the line and most on the MBA, it sure does sound like a single connector for "all" your needs.

Now, and here's the problem, while they apparently claim there would be no need for "double dongles", first of all you'd need a break out box (or cable set) to connect different things to. Secondly, it's optical, so you'd need something that can make it go from optical to coaxial and back. How do you (and the wanna-be journo who wrote that piece) suggest that translation taking place without a dongle?
And even IF all of a sudden we'd be able to swiftly swap all our harddrives, audio recorders and videocameras to this optical standard, if there's only one "dock", we'd _still_ need a break out box to have several things attached at the same time.

[Pocket lint]

Delete

[DMann]

Very interesting:

http://www.macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/report_apple_dictated_light_peak_creation_to_intel/Good call! LP changes the entire playing field for the industry, in terms of potentially unifying connections - data/media/power/networking via one single port and cable, at 10 Gb/sec by this time next year, and 100 Gb/sec in the not so distant future. Peripherals may likely have the option to be daisy chained, to avoid the need for a hub, although, with performance such as this, a small hub would be more than acceptable. Imagine what this would mean for editing HD media on the fly - multitasking and coordinating hard drives and interfaces at "light speeds." Although adapters will no doubt be necessary for preexistent Firewire and USB products, with performance such as this, I'd be willing to upgrade several external HDs and HD Camcorder to take advantage of this, when the time comes.

[Rampant.A.I.]

you right is like debating with a rock. you are the Rock.

Unlike Apple Microsoft will see potentional in a product and keep working with it to take advantage of it.

Apple on the other hand if something does not work right off the bat they drop it like a Red head step child. Apple screwed up the Cube gave up on it. Apple screwed up Apple TV and pretty much does little to improve it. Apple had the chance to enter the consul market but screwed up early on and never bother to try to fix the problem. Hell the entry cost back then were a lot less. Not the billions that Sony and MS had to pay to enter.

You should be charging for this info! Apple launching a game platform is rock solid business advice. I mean, what computer platform is more synonymous with gaming right now than Apple? I'm sure they would have blown PS3 sales out of the water!

:confused:


Not related at all, but what we really need is yet another semi-propriety pseudo standard. Let's all use a connection akin to the dock, only optical. Yup, that means even more adaptors and new peripherals for no purpose other than to skimp on the ports available on our computers. :mad:

Why not? Changing the iPod connectors every few generations works out pretty well for Apple. You can still use the same cables, but suddenly newer iPods are no longer compatible with the $300.00 Bose stereo dock, alarm clocks, or multiple other iPod accessories you bought. Sounds like a decent business plan to me, as long as they let sister companies know and get a cut of future profits.

[Pocket lint]

Why not? Changing the iPod connectors every few generations works out pretty well for Apple. You can still use the same cables, but suddenly newer iPods are no longer compatible with the $300.00 Bose stereo dock, alarm clocks, or multiple other iPod accessories you bought. Sounds like a decent business plan to me, as long as they let sister companies know and get a cut of future profits.

Yup, it's always a great business plan to short-change the consumer in the short run, but my argument is entirely on the end-user's side. Break-out boxes and more dongles and incompatibilites will only fly with the lowest common denominator consumer.

[BongoBanger]

it might be to the point we should just give up because Dmann still does not understand the meaning of LONG TERM INVESTMENT does he.

When the Xbox was first launch it was stated back then that MS knew going in that just on the Xbox it would take 8 years to just break even just on the Xbox and they stated that was with out a new consel launch that they knew they would be doing.

I don't think that's the issue. I've no doubt Microsoft's approach was long term but I doubt it accounted for the failure rate and associated costs which will have pushed the profit point way back.

That said, I still think it will be profitable although much further down the line than first planned. Unfortunately pulling together figures is quite time consuming. Hoping to have something soon though.

[kdarling]

Geez, talk about thread creep :rolleyes:

Another place where the booklet shape was seen before:

Plica folding concept phone and other dual display ideas (http://www.touchuserinterface.com/2009/04/dual-touchscreen-laptops.html)

http://lh5.ggpht.com/touchuiresourcecenter/SJeXZZJI41I/AAAAAAAAAHY/C_J0r4C5nDE/image_thumb%5B1%5D.png?imgmax=800

Wonder if dual displays will be the next hot consumer fad? Especially if ASUS brings out their dual page book reader this Fall.

[kdarling]

Already posted about Codex (http://community.research.microsoft.com/blogs/alpineinker/archive/2008/10/01/microsoft-research-codex.aspx), the previously shown Microsoft Research project with dual folding display...

But I didn't know about Inkseine (http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/redmond/projects/inkseine/), which looks very much like the scrapbook idea show in the Courier. (You can download it from that link and use it on your current touch tablet or UMPC.)

Engadget found the connection: Courier's roots (http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/23/codex-and-inkseine-the-roots-of-microsofts-courier/)

Microsoft Research publishes a lot of their papers, btw. I found this page where you can select a research area (http://research.microsoft.com/apps/dp/areas.aspx), then click on the "Downloads" icon at upper right of the selection, and read.

Does Apple have the equivalent?

[Gaelic2]

A Newton redux????

[silentnite]

The way I'm looking at it. The more micrsosoft talks about their up & coming projects. The more will get from apple, because M.S. is good for not finishing anything they start. Apple will come along and make it actually happen & better. I mean, I read somewhere before that M.S. could have put the ipod out long before apple but was way to slow with it and apple beat em to the punch. :D

[*LTD*]

The way I'm looking at it. The more micrsosoft talks about their up & coming projects. The more will get from apple, because M.S. is good for not finishing anything they start. Apple will come along and make it actually happen & better. I mean, I read somewhere before that M.S. could have put the ipod out long before apple but was way to slow with it and apple beat em to the punch. :D

the more MS talks about their "upcoming" projects, and the more they *show* videos and pics, the more they show their hand prematurely. There are some big disadvantages to this.

[Rodimus Prime]

the more MS talks about their "upcoming" projects, and the more they *show* videos and pics, the more they show their hand prematurely. There are some big disadvantages to this.

At the same time is removes all right from Apple fansboys from claiming MS copies apple.

It gives tones of create to say others are coping microsoft.

[DMann]

At the same time is removes all right from Apple fansboys from claiming MS copies apple.

It gives tones of create to say others are coping microsoft.From visual concept to reality - somehow MS has consistently fallen short of that crucial link. I could produce a video of a device which transports objects via clusters of nano portals - The innovative challenge, however, lies in the ability to bring the concept to reality. A dream, in and of itself, does not constitute innovation.

[kdarling]

The difference between the booklet and a nano-portal transporter video is twofold:

1) MS has shown the individual working pieces before. See posts above.

2) This is software, not hardware. Unlike hardware, almost anything that can be put into a visualization, can be programmed. It's just a matter of time and money.

[puffnstuff]

Wonder if dual displays will be the next hot consumer fad? Especially if ASUS brings out their dual page book reader this Fall.

I am looking forward to seamless folding oled screens. The dual displays thing seems kind of limited.

[kdarling]

I am looking forward to seamless folding oled screens. The dual displays thing seems kind of limited.

Me too. I originally had them in my post, but then figured the required bend radius was too large to make a decent booklet.

That is, until I just saw this OLED bending demo on YouTube. Seems to work okay:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2SCZvU8sGU

(Bends at 0:25 and 1:45)

[kdarling]

Gizmodo has posted another Courier concept video:

How Microsoft sees people using the booklet (http://gizmodo.com/5369493/the-courier-files-how-microsoft-thinks-well-use-their-secret-tablet)

Fun to look at it. But man, I sure foresee that users would require some training to get the most use of something like this.

[alent1234]

The way I'm looking at it. The more micrsosoft talks about their up & coming projects. The more will get from apple, because M.S. is good for not finishing anything they start. Apple will come along and make it actually happen & better. I mean, I read somewhere before that M.S. could have put the ipod out long before apple but was way to slow with it and apple beat em to the punch. :D


the current CEO of Palm is the creator of the iPod. he saw a 1.8" hard drive at Toshiba one time. it was a failure since no one saw any use for it until he decided to make a PMP around it.

MP3 players date to before the ipod. back then MS was 99% software and didn't see a need to enter that market. and i think they aren't serious about the Zune either. the X-Box is their main hardware project now.

[diamond.g]

Gizmodo has posted another Courier concept video:

How Microsoft sees people using the booklet (http://gizmodo.com/5369493/the-courier-files-how-microsoft-thinks-well-use-their-secret-tablet)

Fun to look at it. But man, I sure foresee that users would require some training to get the most use of something like this.

I wonder if Apple is going to abandon the pen input side of OS X (Inkwell). Based on the other thread about the rumored tablet using iPhone OS, I am kinda worried that touching will become the predominant input, where is some cases pen input would be better.

[Roessnakhan]

Gizmodo has posted another Courier concept video:

How Microsoft sees people using the booklet (http://gizmodo.com/5369493/the-courier-files-how-microsoft-thinks-well-use-their-secret-tablet)

Fun to look at it. But man, I sure foresee that users would require some training to get the most use of something like this.

Yeah, I love the application of the device but a lot of those actions don't seem too intuitive to me. Still, very nice looking. Also liked that one of the pages open was Apple.com with a Shuffle ad. ;)

[geeklove12345]

saw this picture online

[lllll]

This device is meaningless if it doesn't do what Apple iPhone can do or what the kindle does, then it sucks.


http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/09/22/microsofts-prototype-multi-touch-tablet-booklet/)


http://images.macrumors.com/article/2009/09/22/235539-500x_courier8.jpg

Gizmodo reveals (http://gizmodo.com/5365299/courier-first-details-of-microsofts-secret-tablet) some details about a top secret Microsoft project working to introduce a new booklet device with dual 7-inch multi-touch screens.
The concept video (http://gizmodo.com/5365299/courier-first-details-of-microsofts-secret-tablet) provided shows the device in use. It incorporates a stylus with handwriting recognition, swipe gestures, and multi-touch actions including pinch zoom.

All the visuals of the devices appear to be concept mockups rather than showing an actual device in action. While Gizmodo describes the device as "late prototype", Engadget (http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/22/microsofts-courier-booklet-emerges-said-to-be-in-late-prototy/) claims it isn't near production.

Meanwhile, Apple has been rumored (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/09/15/apple-tablet-rumors-revived-february-2010-launch-p-a-semi-processor/) to be entering the tablet market as early as 2010.

Article Link: Microsoft's Prototype Multi-Touch Tablet/Booklet (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/09/22/microsofts-prototype-multi-touch-tablet-booklet/)

[ArrowSmith]

This device is going to be amazing, and YES it will have a virtual keyboard. There will be nothing that the Applet tablet has that this won't, plus the fact that it's a dual-screen which makes it so much for useful for reading and other applications.

[XxEjGxX]

1. its microsoft so its bound to fail
2. if its like anything microsoft (pc xbox) it will overheat
3. if its anything like windows it will get infected and blue screen of death and jsut general errors
4. how ultimately silly will you look holding a touchscreen book lol

[ArrowSmith]

1. its microsoft so its bound to fail
2. if its like anything microsoft (pc xbox) it will overheat
3. if its anything like windows it will get infected and blue screen of death and jsut general errors
4. how ultimately silly will you look holding a touchscreen book lol

LOL. I love the sound of desperation. The Courier is going to change everything.

[DMann]

LOL. I love the sound of desperation. The Courier is going to change everything.

Hopefully, it'll make an appearance at CES, next month.

[thecartoonguy]

... but it runs on a MS operating system.

I'm sure people will love the blue left page of death.


LMAO that was awesome.

[thecartoonguy]

LOL. I love the sound of desperation. The Courier is going to change everything.

But he/she is right.

[bartzilla]

1. its microsoft so its bound to fail
2. if its like anything microsoft (pc xbox) it will overheat
3. if its anything like windows it will get infected and blue screen of death and jsut general errors
4. how ultimately silly will you look holding a touchscreen book lol

If there's anything worse than desperate fanboy posturing, its desperate fanboy posturing over non-existent products. Right now nobody outside of their respective labs knows what the possible new Apple and Microsoft tablet devices will be like. I for one will reserve my opinion until I've actually seen something.

Oh and for the record on your 3rd point above, I've had as many infections and blue screens on my windows machines here at home over the years as I've had infections and kernal panics on my macs here at home over the year; which is to say no infections and the only hard crashes I've seen from either OS were down to hardware issues.