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arn
Jul 18, 2002, 07:06 AM
ATI announced the Radeon 9000 PRO and 9700 (http://www.businesswire.com/cgi-bin/f_headline.cgi?day0/221990018&ticker=aty.to|atyt) at MacWorld.

ATI Technologies Inc. (TSX:ATY, NASDAQ:ATYT) today announced that its groundbreaking new RADEON(TM) 9000 PRO and RADEON(TM) 9700 visual processors will be coming to Macintosh in the late summer and early fall. The revolutionary RADEON chips will astound Mac users with twice the graphics power and performance than any other chip on the market.

hvfsl
Jul 18, 2002, 07:34 AM
Hopefully Apple will include the Radeon 9000 in new iMacs as they retail for the same price as the Geforce 4 MXs, but are twice as fast.

MhzDoesMatter
Jul 18, 2002, 07:40 AM
"However, Mac Users should not be astounded by the new cards having only half the function drivers as other cards on the market."


Hope the new cards rock, hope the software side is tight. Hope it's all BTO on the new powermacs.

ntg
Jul 18, 2002, 07:45 AM
I bet these would give my G4-400 a shot in the arm!! However, I don't suppose we'll know just how much 10.2 and a decent graphics card will help older systems until August 24th.

Matthé
Jul 18, 2002, 08:46 AM
"bohoo no powermacs at NY...nag nag nag"
maybe this was why they waited a bit?

synergy
Jul 18, 2002, 08:51 AM
Originally posted by ntg
I bet these would give my G4-400 a shot in the arm!! However, I don't suppose we'll know just how much 10.2 and a decent graphics card will help older systems until August 24th.

You are going to need more than just a video card to give your G4 400 a shot in the arm. Under OS 10.2 most certainly provided the drivers are there. For other software like games you are processor and bus bound.

I own a G4 400 and am feeling how slow it is with games. Sucks. Was hoping for a mention of the new towers so that I could at least decide if I should upgrade the CPU in my box or to just get a new machine.

Geert
Jul 18, 2002, 09:22 AM
I'dd like to see some performance footage on these babies.

PretendPCuser
Jul 18, 2002, 09:27 AM
I'm kinda had a feeling that SJ would choose to wait to announce new Towers when a few other features/hardware were ready so he could really build some marketing blitz around it. Seems Jaguar will help with that and now the mention of new boards from ATI. They probably won't be avail. right away, (In August) but BTO will more than likely be an option. I can imagine new machines with Quartz Extreme and with these new boards will be absolutely too cool to pass up.

Unfortunately (kind of) i have two G4 400s and i'll probably try to sell both of those and will maybe get enough in return to buy a G4 800-933 or whatever if they really blow the price out.

Does anyone else believe as i do that SJ is trying to get away from major hardware product launches at MacWorld's because of how it affects sales before the shows?

mcrain
Jul 18, 2002, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by PretendPCuser
Does anyone else believe as i do that SJ is trying to get away from major hardware product launches at MacWorld's because of how it affects sales before the shows?

Yeah, instead of offering new hardware at the shows (which gives people a disincentive to buy beforehand), he announces that if you bought a computer right before the show, you're going to have to pay an additional $129 just for the new OS.

Great plan Steve.

webmasterkai
Jul 18, 2002, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by mcrain


Yeah, instead of offering new hardware at the shows (which gives people a disincentive to buy beforehand), he announces that if you bought a computer right before the show, you're going to have to pay an additional $129 just for the new OS.

Great plan Steve.

SJ announces that if you bought a computer right before the show 10.2 would be yours for the cost of shipping. $20

I think it smart to preview software. Buy a new mac so you can use all the new software shown at MW. Give us the hardware when it's ready.

Rower_CPU
Jul 18, 2002, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by webmasterkai
SJ announces that if you bought a computer right before the show 10.2 would be yours for the cost of shipping. $20

I think it smart to preview software. Buy a new mac so you can use all the new software shown at MW. Give us the hardware when it's ready.

Except that right before the show in this case is July 17th...for a couple of hours.:rolleyes:

moJoMR
Jul 18, 2002, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by webmasterkai


SJ announces that if you bought a computer right before the show 10.2 would be yours for the cost of shipping. $20


Right before the show.. how much time did we really have before the show? 6hours? grr steve.. I'd shoot him if I bought a machine in the past 3months.. (luckily, its been 4..)

Tomasz
Jul 18, 2002, 11:42 AM
The cards theoritical performance is great. So far the 9000 pro is a great consumer level product (especially for its price and performance). The 9700 is awesome. The difference in quality is over the top. They dumped bump graphics, and you should see the difference.

I think tomshardware or another pc site (yeah... i know) will have an article and show you what you can expect (at least partially, considering that its the pc version). The 9000 series will probably be here in a few days, because they are already being tested, but the 9700 will be ready in a few weeks. So enjoy the wait:)

Tomasz

P.S. Hopefully this will help ATI out until the NV18/30s hit the market, at which point they will once again be "only" second best in shear performance.

GPTurismo
Jul 18, 2002, 12:20 PM
I will believe it when I see the cards. They have said this about every card they have released since Nvidia took over with the GeForce, and their driver support still is poor.

Also Nvidia and Apple are getting really close, which to me is a great idea ^_^

topicolo
Jul 18, 2002, 12:38 PM
They have the numbers up at HardOCP. From the looks of it, the 9700 is going to OWN the GF4 Ti. Apparently, the 9700 with 4x full screen anti aliasing at 1600x1200 in quake 3 is about 20% faster than the fastest GF4 WITHOUT anti-aliasing. If AA is switched on on the GF4, the 9700 is up to 300% faster! WOW!

Tomasz
Jul 18, 2002, 01:05 PM
They do say this everytime... but this time it actually looks true. Also, the last time, the 8500 was almost a perfect match.... until nVidia released the new detonator driver (which they were holding from the public inorder to release it when ATI released their card... inorder to make it look worse).

And I personally don't want Apple and nVidia to be very close.... leaving ATI out. With more competion, better products are produced.

And since we are talking about graphic cards.... matrox should bring their new baby to the apple side. Can you imagine THREE 23" displays hooked up? That is very interesting... although it won't be as fast as the ti4600. But that is some massive realestate.

Tomasz

topicolo
Jul 18, 2002, 02:33 PM
Bah. I wouldn't touch a parhelia-512 with a 10 foot pole. It's overpriced, slow as hell with crappy pc drivers (they won't do better for mac) and has crap tech support.

sergeantmudd
Jul 18, 2002, 03:43 PM
I have been wanting to upgrade the card in my tower for awhile now, but no way I was going to until a retail card supported ADC. The Radeon 9000 has an ADC and DVI-I connector. Now I can buy a new card for less than $400 dollars (price of Nvidia/Apple GeForce4 Ti I believe)

Wry Cooter
Jul 18, 2002, 07:09 PM
Will either of these cards work with a 2x agp sawtooth? I can't even find the 8500 anymore.

topicolo
Jul 19, 2002, 11:40 AM
Theoretically, even agp 8x cards should be backwards compatible with agp 2x slots. I don't think there should be any problem.

Sun Baked
Jul 19, 2002, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by Wry Cooter
Will either of these cards work with a 2x agp sawtooth? I can't even find the 8500 anymore.

Apple Store still sells the ATI 8500 (299) along with the NVidia GeForece 4 Ti (399) - don't know about stock or availability.

Would have been nice if Apple would have offered the ATI 8500 card as a BTO option on the towers, but they are only selling ADC cards.

The ATI 8500 card would have been a nice cheap BTO option for those who only need a DVI or VGA connector right now.

MasterX (OSiX)
Jul 19, 2002, 07:45 PM
I was at MacWorld, and I saw what I thought was the Radeon 10000 (which was actually the 9700 as it turns out). There are a few VERY important things I got answered. First the Radeon8500 and the Sushi engine (which can access ALL of the R200's features) are coming to the mac via ati.com sw download sometime soon (they had a sweet demo on a G4). They then told me about their "yet unannounced" card (9700) and it's Sushi 2 engine. WOW that thing can cook. It had an unlimited number of polys dumped into this car with a 3 pass texture object (sparkle, reflection, color) and it ran quite smooth and the next generation pixel shaders are amazing. i could not tell they weren't modeled on the car. Furthurmore (being a concerned OSX user) I asked if Jaguar's OpenGL was powerful enough to support this amazing new Sushui 2 engine and the drivers that it would need. They said yes, although making the drivers was the time consumer, but that that was their only limitation. So look forward to seeing programmable pixel shaders in Jagaur on your 8500 soon, and Sushi demos as a screen saver soon after that. I can't wait (this demo was AWESOME)

MasterX (OSiX)
Jul 19, 2002, 07:50 PM
Sorry I should clarify:

Mac rig:
Radeon8500
Sushi Demo
Jaguar
OpenGL 1.2
beta drivers at show
real drivers available soon after Jaguar is out
9700 drivers will be available (sooner than it took to get real Radeon Mac Ed. drivers)

PC Rig:
Radeon9700
Sushi 2 demo
Windows XP
DirectX (assuming)
beta drivers at show
real drivers available before the mac ones, lucky little....

AlphaTech
Jul 19, 2002, 08:00 PM
Don't forget, the Radeon 9000 Pro will have an ADC and DVI connection on the back. More info about the card can be found here (http://www.ati.com/products/mac/radeon9000prome/index.html). Something else to note, the 9000 Pro and 9700 cards are BOTH AGP cards. :D

big
Jul 19, 2002, 08:23 PM
>the 9000 Pro and 9700 cards are BOTH AGP cards

I went "shopping" for a video card, and could not believe how quickly PCI was running out of steam for video support.

Hardly any card (even for Pc's) are pci, since when did they go AGP?

Catfish_Man
Jul 19, 2002, 11:16 PM
Originally posted by big
>the 9000 Pro and 9700 cards are BOTH AGP cards

I went "shopping" for a video card, and could not believe how quickly PCI was running out of steam for video support.

Hardly any card (even for Pc's) are pci, since when did they go AGP? ...since just before Macs. Apple switched to AGP a little after AGP2x came out.

Wry Cooter
Jul 19, 2002, 11:27 PM
I would still like to see some concrete evidence that an 8x agp card will work in a 2x AGP slot. I have a sawtooth I want to max out while I'm waiting for a real next gen tower from apple.

Even if it did work in a 2x AGP slot, I would wonder if ATI would have the drivers ready. I would already have an 8500, if it were not for the drivers breaking with the 10.1.5 upgrade, which I had done the night before I was considering buying the radeon 8500.

If the 9000 card will work in my sawtooth, thats okay too. But I may not see any more performance than if I had a 8500. I can't find the 8500s locally, and I don't llike to mail order hardware, in case there IS a driver issue, its a bigger hassle to return.

AlphaTech
Jul 19, 2002, 11:43 PM
Hey cooter, have you even looked for a driver from ATI to run under OS X??? I just did a easy search, and wouldn't you know, there IS a driver that calls out "This driver is designed for use with Mac OS X version 10.1 to 10.1.5."

See for yourself right here (http://www.ati.com/support/products/mac/radeon8500/osx/radeon8500maceditionosxdrivers.html). :p

BTW, cards that list 4x AGP as an interface DO work quite well on a 2x AGP slot. Putting the 8500 Mac edition into your sawtooth will give it a serious graphics power boost.

beatle888
Jul 20, 2002, 03:31 AM
Originally posted by AlphaTech

BTW, cards that list 4x AGP as an interface DO work quite well on a 2x AGP slot. Putting the 8500 Mac edition into your sawtooth will give it a serious graphics power boost.


only 3D graphics though right? would it help his 2D graphics?
like scrolling and photoshop........?

I was told that graphics cards really dont help that much on 2D
processes.....but i dont know.

barkmonster
Jul 20, 2002, 06:40 AM
I can see the GeForce4 MX being dropped from the G4 lineup and replaced with the Radeon 9000. This might be why we're waiting on the towers.

Think about it, for BTO options what we've got now is this :

Radeon 7500 : 32Mb, ADC, VGA
GeForce4 MX : 64Mb, ADC, VGA
GeForce4 Ti : 128Mb, ADC, DVI, VGA - DVI adapter

How much better would it be if it was like this :

Radeon 7500 : 32Mb, ADC, VGA
Radeon 9000 : 64Mb, ADC, DVI, VGA - DVI adapter
GeForce4 Ti : 128Mb, ADC, DVI, VGA - DVI adapter

It would make a lot more sense for people who want to add a second display either at time of purchase or at a later date if they offered a mid range graphics card that could connect to 2 ADC monitors but still work with VGA and 1 ADC monitor if that's what you want to do.

Infact wouldn't it be better, given the fact that the Radeon 9000 is likely to be the replacement for the Radeon 7500 in Ati's range that we have the Radeon 9000 as standard on all models apart from the high end with both a GeForce4 Ti and Radeon 8500 as a BTO option on the mid range and low end ?

Wry Cooter
Jul 20, 2002, 07:56 AM
Originally posted by AlphaTech
Hey cooter, have you even looked for a driver from ATI to run under OS X??? I just did a easy search, and wouldn't you know, there IS a driver that calls out "This driver is designed for use with Mac OS X version 10.1 to 10.1.5."

See for yourself right here (http://www.ati.com/support/products/mac/radeon8500/osx/radeon8500maceditionosxdrivers.html)

Thanks for the URL! But my statement was about TIMELY attention to those matters. It really wasn't the driver that broke with 10.1.5, it was its installer a problem that they had with 10.1.4. They patched the installer once to get it to work with 10.1.4. They had to patch it again for 10.1.5. The patch wasn't ready when I had the disposable income on hand. Guess who lost a sale?

Its not like they were unaware that 10.1.5 was coming out and they could have beta tested the installer, or updated their info page....

MasterX (OSiX)
Jul 20, 2002, 02:14 PM
BE nice to developers. I recall MacPlay claiming that they had AvP running fine on their 10.1 seeds, but it didn't work on GM. Also not as if problems can be solved instantly. For the record I did get a Radeon8500 for my G4 500 (AGP 2x) and it kicks butt. As for 2D vs 3D- in 10.1.5 you will see 3D run faster (a lot faster if you still have the 16MB Rage 128). But since we have slow CPUs you will still get a hit from high-polygon scenes. On the other hand things completely GPU-based (textures, resolution) will run flawlessly, as the 8500's pipeline is ridiculously powerful. In other words, don't expect huge FPS boosts (there is a good deal more, but not huge), but you CAN expect to get those EXACT fps rates at maximum quality. As for AGP 8x, I'm sure it works in AGP2x slots, because AGP works just like SDRAM, syncing it with your bus speed. As for drivers, the 9700 will ship most likely with all the featurs in it (if you're on Jaguar), and if not it will have no less than: TRUform, FSAA, TC&L, and Pixel Shaders generation 1. I talked to the ATi guys, which is how I know.

AlphaTech
Jul 20, 2002, 02:30 PM
MasterX, Good to hear about info from ATI's mouth. :D

I have been a HUGE fan of ATI for ages now. So much, that I refuse to purchase any other video card. They have ALWAYS done right by me in both Mac's and peecee's. I had already decided that I would be getting a new video card for my game pc, and was hoping that ATI would stand and deliver for me. I was going to look at the nVidia chipset, but now I'm not. Around the end of this year, I will be getting a Radeon 9700, and really expect it to kick some serious ass. :D

BTW, the game pc has a 4x AGP slot, so I shouldn't have any issue there. Then again, if I need to, I will replace the motherboard to get an 8x AGP slot. :D It IS a game system after all.. :D

MasterX (OSiX)
Jul 20, 2002, 02:38 PM
Yeah, at the worst the 9700 would only work in 4x. NO ONE is dumb enough to x out that many systems. Hell even OSX can run on a 3 year old computer. I'd like to stress how awesome it is that all the 9700 features CAN (and therefor WILL) be put into the Jaguar drivers. Looks like OpenGL in Jaguar has matured to it's fullest. 10% faster, 5 more features supported, full (and up to date) OpenGL spec compliance for the 1.2 revision. Mac gaming is going to rock the PC world in under 18 months. Ever notice how a mac only trails by 50fps (150 vs 200) and yet is about 1/2 the MHz? So once apple gets closer in Mhz, and more games (probably OMNIgroup ones) get threaded you will see performance incomprehensible in XP. Like Giants for example. Except faster, and with a better render. I can't wait.

It's good to be the king.

Exlaxxboy
Jul 20, 2002, 02:49 PM
<html> <body> <text size="3"> </body> </html> yea yea everyone is saying oooo ooo ATI is gonna rule the video card world ARE YOU GUYS STOOOPPID? What about Nvidia with The Geforce5? or the Video card that apple is making with Nvidia? Geez dont you realise that The Geforce 4 Ti4600 is still better than it when the Geforce 5 Ti Comes out with 256MB of Video Ram and who knows how many Billions more polygons per second the Geforce 5 Ti will support? *smacks every singel Uber Male Mac USer and Laughs*

MasterX (OSiX)
Jul 20, 2002, 03:13 PM
that only ATi is making serious headway with Apple into the land of 4rd generation 3D graphics support. Let's review-

1st hardware 3D (Rage/GeForce). Basic polygon and texturing support.
2nd Generation (Radeon/GeForce2). Hardware TC&L. 3D FSAA.
3rd Generation (Radeon8500/GeForce3). 2nd generation hardware TC&L, FSAA with no FPS hit, quad texture pipes etc. Programable pixel shaders.
4th generatio (Radeon9700/GeForce4Ti/Parhellia). 3rd generation geometry, 2nd generation pixel shaders, AGP8, and so on.

I'm shure this isn't complete or even all accurate, especially seeing as ATi and nVidia's update schedules are opposite (Radeon beats GF2not GF3, 8500 beats GF3 not GF4, 9700 beats GF4, not GF5). But you can look at the drivers. Right now nVidia is working on getting what i refer to as 2nd Generation features. ATi is going to have 3rd generation when Jaguar supports it, and 4th generation when they finish working on the card/drivers. So even when your Apple card/GeForce5 comes out my 8500 will be running pixel shaders and TRUform while you curse at your lack of FSAA. Although to be fair I'm sure Apple would make drivers so complete it would put ATi to shame. But i don't see an Apple card for consumers in the pipe so it's a moot point. Expect a GeForce5 WAY before anything with an Apple logo.

My two cents. Read PA.

Rower_CPU
Jul 20, 2002, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by Exlaxxboy
<html> <body> <text size="3"> </body> </html> yea yea everyone is saying oooo ooo ATI is gonna rule the video card world ARE YOU GUYS STOOOPPID? What about Nvidia with The Geforce5? or the Video card that apple is making with Nvidia? Geez dont you realise that The Geforce 4 Ti4600 is still better than it when the Geforce 5 Ti Comes out with 256MB of Video Ram and who knows how many Billions more polygons per second the Geforce 5 Ti will support? *smacks every singel Uber Male Mac USer and Laughs*

Wow...nice use of HTML...:rolleyes:

MasterX (OSiX)
Jul 20, 2002, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by Rower_CPU


Wow...nice use of HTML...:rolleyes:

ouch

AlphaTech
Jul 20, 2002, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by Rower_CPU


Wow...nice use of HTML...:rolleyes:

Fatallity, Row-dog style.... (he just made you his biatch, fool :eek: ):D

big
Jul 20, 2002, 06:17 PM
>Wow...nice use of HTML...

next time you may have to step down to a WYSIWYG editor! (leave bbedit to us)

MasterX (OSiX)
Jul 20, 2002, 08:08 PM
As long time readers will know I almost never use HTML, but unless i'm going crazy sometime around June didn't they add the buttons that let me do this and this and this and this and this? (steve@mac.com)

Maybe i'm just crazy. Oh and the preview reply button...

macrumors rule of thumb. If you're trying to lay down the smack your boat had better be water tight, bulletproof, and not running Windows. :D

Rower_CPU
Jul 20, 2002, 08:54 PM
Heh...glad you all enjoyed that one.:D

Hopefully we scared 'em off for good.

PS. MasterX, "dowen"?...tsk, tsk, tsk.:p ;)

MasterX (OSiX)
Jul 20, 2002, 09:48 PM
I have uh, cough cough... no idea what you're talking about. ;¬)

Exlaxxboy
Jul 24, 2002, 03:32 PM
yea I am going a little ****ing insane so sue me and yes the Geforce 5 is still better than ATI will ever make (until the Radeon 10000?) but the point is that I am not wrong and you are hahahahahahahahaahahaha:D