More Double Standards

[skunk]

UN Secretary General Kofi Annan on Sunday urged Israel to accept the ruling, which is expected to be debated at the UN this week.

"While we accept that the government of Israel has the responsibility and duty to protect its citizens, any action it takes has to be in conformity with international law," he said.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3884887.stm
Does this apply to the US too? I think we should be told.

[Desertrat]

When the issue could be my living or my dying, "International Law" can get stuck where the sun doesn't shine. Any other law, for that matter.

'Rat

"It's better to be judged by twelve than carried by six."--old cop saying.

[Thanatoast]

Law was developed in order to make it easier for people to live in large groups. If everyone follows the same rules, then society has a better chance of surviving, and every dispute does not have to end in a fight.

Imagine a hundred and ninety people living in a town with no laws. With no authorities and with no leaders besides the biggest guy with the most weapons in his basement arsenal. This is the way the Bush administration sees the world. I, for one, think it's a poor way to live.

[Desertrat]

"Law was developed in order to make it easier for people to live in large groups. If everyone follows the same rules, then society has a better chance of surviving, and every dispute does not have to end in a fight."

No argument. All very true. Trouble is, not everybody follows the same rules.

What I've watched over some 56 years is the shift away from blaming those who started and have continued the violence, toward blaming the victims of this unending murder. The history of the Israeli/Arab conflict did not begin with various observers' coming to awareness...

'Rat

[skunk]

Since the US played a major part in drawing up International Law, and often professes to act in its name, don't you think it would be slightly more consistent to act according to its precepts?

[blackfox]

Oh, the US has no problem w/ International Law...as long as it is written by and judged by our own interests. Obviously, we are the most moral and wise of Nations, as evinced by God's favourable will in making us the most powerful Nation on the planet. The US is the country of "Freedom" and "Liberty", powerful god-given concepts which transcend the need to play by any rules but those which serve us. If you disagree, you must not understand, or more likely be the enemy of these great Truths, and you are to be pitied, or marginalized, or put out of your misery...as you are either on our side, by our rules...or you are probably in bed with terrorists and your day of reckoning will soon come...


here is my sarcasm 'o meter, you judge where this falls:

No sarcasm[------------------------------------------------------]sarcastastic

[Thanatoast]

"Law was developed in order to make it easier for people to live in large groups. If everyone follows the same rules, then society has a better chance of surviving, and every dispute does not have to end in a fight."

No argument. All very true. Trouble is, not everybody follows the same rules.

What I've watched over some 56 years is the shift away from blaming those who started and have continued the violence, toward blaming the victims of this unending murder. The history of the Israeli/Arab conflict did not begin with various observers' coming to awareness...

'RatEveryone may not play by the same rules, but that does not excuse us to throw out our own rule book. Nobody said is was gonna be easy being the good guys. Our own willingness to skirt accepted tradition and law only proves we are as corrupt as we are accused of being.

In order to prove democracy works, we have to use democratic principles in resolving our conflicts. Otherwise, we prove democracy is just as weak and corrupt as any other system. Torture, lies, and invasion do not become the world's premier democracy. In other words, we have failed to uphold the principles we claim to follow, and we have been called on it.

[Desertrat]

"Torture, lies, and invasion do not become the world's premier democracy."

I'm in full accord about the torture and lies. My views on invasion vary with circumstance.

"In other words, we have failed to uphold the principles we claim to follow, and we have been called on it."

Er, no. Israel is being fraudulently called upon to assist in its own suicide. See the opening post.

'Rat

[IJ Reilly]

Er, no. Israel is being fraudulently called upon to assist in its own suicide. See the opening post.

I support this right of Israel to exist as much as the next person, but I believe this statement is gross exaggeration of the situation as it actually exists on the ground. Certainly Israel is suffering from the constant reign of terrorism, but if anything threatens the existence state of Israel, it isn't the terrorism itself, but the way they've isolated themselves from world opinion by how they're dealing with it.

[skunk]

See the opening post.
'Rat, my point in posting was to highlight the principles of the UN Charter and how the US has signally failed to observe them. Israel at least has an excuse.

[Flex]

I support this right of Israel to exist as much as the next person, but I believe this statement is gross exaggeration of the situation as it actually exists on the ground. Certainly Israel is suffering from the constant reign of terrorism, but if anything threatens the existence state of Israel, it isn't the terrorism itself, but the way they've isolated themselves from world opinion by how they're dealing with it.
How else should they deal with the terrorist that will actually stop the terrorism? Negotiating with Hamas is out of the question they already stated there shall be no peace until all of Israel is pushed out into the sea.

[zimv20]

flex - your writing style and argument content seem a little familiar. have i seen you around here before?

and what brings you to the MR political area?

[pseudobrit]

flex - your writing style and argument content seem a little familiar. have i seen you around here before?

You're being very sly about your accusation. ;)

[Sayhey]

Slexatron?

[skunk]

You're being very sly about your accusation. ;)
:D

[Thanatoast]

'Rat,

Israel is being called upon to find a tenable solution to the palestinian problem. Building a giant wall does not contribute to resolving the deep issues dividing the two sides. It does, however, violate international law, which the relations between nations are based upon (for good reason, despite what W thinks), and it does put even more hardship on already poverty stricken palestinians. I assume you don't claim that every palestinian has a bomd strapped on and ready to blow?

[Desertrat]

"'Rat, my point in posting was to highlight the principles of the UN Charter and how the US has signally failed to observe them."

Yes, well, I was trying to stick with the subject at hand, rather than a highjacking of the thread.

"Israel at least has an excuse."

My point exactly.

Thanatoast, I'm fully aware that not all Palestinians are Goblins. IMO, most are trapped by the various terrorist groups such as Hamas and by decades of Arafat's intransigence. IMO, Flex is correct. The Palestinian militants have never, ever swerved from their desire for genocide.

'Rat

[toontra]

"Torture, lies, and invasion do not become the world's premier democracy."

I'm in full accord about the torture and lies. My views on invasion vary with circumstance.

"In other words, we have failed to uphold the principles we claim to follow, and we have been called on it."

Er, no. Israel is being fraudulently called upon to assist in its own suicide. See the opening post.

'Rat

Rat, if the wall is merely (as is repeatedly stated) to protect Israel from suicide bombings, why is it built on occupied territory and not on the boundary of their own undisputed border?

Building it along the internationally agreed border would solve the security problem and remove most of the Arab/UN/world objections to what is seen as simply a further land-grab.

[mouchoir]

How else should they deal with the terrorist that will actually stop the terrorism? Negotiating with Hamas is out of the question they already stated there shall be no peace until all of Israel is pushed out into the sea.


I think that if they had obeyed UN sanctions in the first place, and built the wall on their border in the first place, instead of deep into the legally palestinian occupied west bank – making thousands homeless and cutting off entire villages and towns – then this ruling wouldn't have happened.

Israel are constantly going against the UN and doing whatever they please in the name of 'terrorism'. They are well funded and supplied by the US to do this.


The US will act 'multilaterally when possible, but unilaterally when necessary', President Clinton informed the United Nations in 1993.

Unfortunately, the 'where necessary' often includes money rather than safety, and at the expense of other people.

The problem with the US' relationship with the UN is that it has the power to go against it whenever it needs, and won't hesitate to do so, rendering it useless much of the time.

[mischief]

Israel is, indeed abusing the "self defense" motif by building inside occupied territory.

However...

It's good to keep in mind the following tidbits:

Yasser Arafat is a militant from Syria... He's not even Palisinian.

Palestine has never been a recognized as a Nation. Native American Tribes have more recognition and internationally respected relevance.

The Israeli people have been misrepresented as a variety of nasty things beginning with a naive series of letters written by Josephus Flavius. Hamas and other Anti-semitic groups have been using such misconceptions to attack both Jews as a group and Israel as a concept for as long as a millenium.

Note: I'm not Jewish... I just do a lot of research.. ;)

A real tragedy here is that with so much agression and hatred literally surrounding Israel we're seeing Likud and others resorting to exactly the kind of tactics that gained enough sympathy from the international community to create an Israeli state following WW2. Proof that with enough pressure you can become that which you oppose the most.

There's also the perspective that Palestinians don't really have an option... Nearby nations are closed to them. In many respects these people are in a similar situation to Latino migrant workers: Hated on both sides of the border by some but indespensible to two economies; used and abused by the most despicable factions on both sides.

[skunk]

Palestine has never been a recognized as a Nation.
Oh yes it has: Philistia, settled by unsuccessful invaders of Egypt in c.1200BCE. The Jews of the time certainly recognized the Philistines. Anyway, what has recognition of statehood got to do with human rights?

Aside from that quibble, I agree. :)

[mischief]

Oh yes it has: Philistia, settled by unsuccessful invaders of Egypt in c.1200BCE. The Jews of the time certainly recognized the Philistines. Anyway, what has recognition of statehood got to do with human rights?

Aside from that quibble, I agree. :)

I'm glad you asked. (not like that was bait or anything ;))

Though the Palestinians have every right to the same human rights as everyone else there's some legal complications. As an amalgamation of stateless refugees that refuse naturalization into Israel they have very few options. Arafat loved making it sound as if Palestine was a Nation at war and under invasion with/by Israel. If this were the case the provisions of the International Laws of Warfare would apply.... They don't. If Palestine were a Nation they'd have legal rights to self defence as outlined in international law. They don't.

The bitch of the situation for the UN is that "The occupied territories" are a political DMZ. It's a piece of land that exists between Israel and Syria with no Nation attatched to it. As I recall it was all supposed to be Israel anyway.... It was a series of wars and treaties involving Syria and Egypt that created it in the first place.

Imagine what life would be like if neither Mexico nor the USA would cop to juristiction over (say) the shanty villages on the US/Mexico border... to the extent that a 2-mile wide band of open land existed between the two countries.... Ridiculous!

[IJ Reilly]

Though the Palestinians have every right to the same human rights as everyone else there's some legal complications. As an amalgamation of stateless refugees that refuse naturalization into Israel they have very few options. Arafat loved making it sound as if Palestine was a Nation at war and under invasion with/by Israel. If this were the case the provisions of the International Laws of Warfare would apply.... They don't. If Palestine were a Nation they'd have legal rights to self defence as outlined in international law. They don't.

It sounds like you're saying that the Palestinians are stateless by choice.

[Griffon]

It sounds like you're saying that the Palestinians are stateless by choice.
Isn't it true that a large number of them have passports from places like Egypt and Saudi Arabia? Yet they moved to the disputed territories. That sounds like by choice to me.

[mischief]

It sounds like you're saying that the Palestinians are stateless by choice.

I was referring to the various deals that were offerred over the years in which the "be a citizen or get the hell out" theme was repeatedly used. There were always nasty little lynchpins that made the deals poor options.

[mactastic]

Trouble is, not everybody follows the same rules.

Does that mean we throw out the rulebook? Or do we try and act in a better manner than those we fight?

What I've watched over some 56 years is the shift away from blaming those who started and have continued the violence, toward blaming the victims of this unending murder. The history of the Israeli/Arab conflict did not begin with various observers' coming to awareness...


Who are the victims 'Rat? The Israelis for taking suicide bombings on the chin, or the Palestinians who endured the terror of the Stern Gang? Can you honestly say you see one side as victim and another side as victimizer here? Or are both just as guilty as the other? As you said, the history of the Israeli/Arab conflict did not begin with various observers' coming to awareness. But nor did it begin with the recent intifada, or even the creation of Israel itself.

[Desertrat]

The Stern gang did not indiscriminately bomb Arab children...

Once the UN voted in 1948, Israel was supposed to be a done deal. No more terrorism by anybody.

So, after 1948, who did the terrorism? Who invaded in 1967? Who invaded in 1973? Who's been doing suicide bombings ever since? Whose charter specifically spoke to eradicating the state of Israel and all Jews?

It danged sure wasn't Golda Meir.

Ever have a leaky faucet? Going, "Drip, drip, drip..." all night long? Drive you bughouse? Think of it from the Israelis' standpoint as drops of blood and no plumber ever succeeds in stopping it.

Anybody who wants peace in the middle eastern part of the world has gotta figure out how to stop Hamas, et al--and now, Al Qaida.

We could totally go away from the middle east. Leave. Come home entirely. That wouldn't stop the terrorism. Israel could roll over for whatever UN ideas come to pass. That wouldn't stop the terrorism. It will only stop when hatred quits being a way of life in the Arab world--and I don't think that's gonna happen, given what's going on in the madrassahs. And when all the Israelis are dead, they'll find another target.

There is that militant portion of Islam which perverts the religion and blames all Arab problems on the western world, on its ideas and culture. That won't stop with Israel's demise, which is the current focus. Current focus, not sole focus.

'Rat

[skunk]

Anybody who wants peace in the middle eastern part of the world has gotta figure out how to stop Hamas, et al--and now, Al Qaida.

Neither of these organizations can operate without popular support. Any solution has to include massive aid, not just retaliatory strikes. Gaza is a bombed out cesspit.

[Taft]

It will only stop when hatred quits being a way of life in the Arab world--and I don't think that's gonna happen, given what's going on in the madrassahs. And when all the Israelis are dead, they'll find another target.

There is that militant portion of Islam which perverts the religion and blames all Arab problems on the western world, on its ideas and culture. That won't stop with Israel's demise, which is the current focus. Current focus, not sole focus.

'Rat

I agree that hatred is what is causing the situation.

However, I disagree that the hatred many Muslims have is unfocused or completely without reason. The Palestinians have very real reasons to be at odds with Israel and other Muslims countries in the region, though I would still say that hatred of the type they hold is almost never justified. They have been pooped on by just about every country in the region and in ways that disgrace and humiliate Muslims due to their cultural beliefs.

I also disagree that this hatred and racism only exists on the Muslim side of the fence. As Mischeif pointed out, there are a lot of Israelis who resort to the same tactics as the Palestinians. Hell, Jews were bombing people in what is now Palestinian territory in the 30's and 40's in an attempt to force the creation of Israel. How's that for irony? The same tactics Jewish extremists once used to try and create a Jewish state now threaten that state's existence. Karma's gonna get you!

Even worse, many Israelis (and Jews in general) are being raised to hate Muslims, just as Palestinians are raised to hate Jews. The racism and hatred comes from both sides and has from almost the very creation of Israel.

Both sides need to rid themselves of the extremists. The Jews should renounce all those pushing for and implementing the settlements in Palestinian territory and who advocate the destruction of the Palestinians. The Palestinians should renounce all those who would see Israel destroyed. It won't happen soon, but it is what needs to happen.

And if you ever think that the Palestinian extremists are somehow worse than the Israeli extremists, consider this:

extremists + no hope for the future = human bomb

I really think the answer to this problem is to give Palestinians some hope for the future. Eliminate part of the equation which creates human bombs, only then will we see reform on the Palestinian side of the fence.

Taft

[Sayhey]

The Stern gang did not indiscriminately bomb Arab children...
'Rat

Excuse me?

Deir Yassin (http://www.deiryassin.org/)

[mactastic]

The Stern gang did not indiscriminately bomb Arab children...

Once the UN voted in 1948, Israel was supposed to be a done deal. No more terrorism by anybody.

So, after 1948, who did the terrorism? Who invaded in 1967? Who invaded in 1973? Who's been doing suicide bombings ever since? Whose charter specifically spoke to eradicating the state of Israel and all Jews?

It danged sure wasn't Golda Meir.

Ever have a leaky faucet? Going, "Drip, drip, drip..." all night long? Drive you bughouse? Think of it from the Israelis' standpoint as drops of blood and no plumber ever succeeds in stopping it.

Anybody who wants peace in the middle eastern part of the world has gotta figure out how to stop Hamas, et al--and now, Al Qaida.

We could totally go away from the middle east. Leave. Come home entirely. That wouldn't stop the terrorism. Israel could roll over for whatever UN ideas come to pass. That wouldn't stop the terrorism. It will only stop when hatred quits being a way of life in the Arab world--and I don't think that's gonna happen, given what's going on in the madrassahs. And when all the Israelis are dead, they'll find another target.

There is that militant portion of Islam which perverts the religion and blames all Arab problems on the western world, on its ideas and culture. That won't stop with Israel's demise, which is the current focus. Current focus, not sole focus.

'Rat

So IOW your argument is that the Israelis are the victims here, having done nothing whatsoever to provoke or deserve any violence against them?

And although I've been beaten to it I have to say... What the heck are you talking about? The Stern Gang was a Terrorist Organization with a capital T. Furthemore, leaders of that noble group have been leaders of Israel. I've heard you gripe about the blood on Arafats hands, yet you consistently ignore the 'drip drip drip' of blood from Sharon's hands. I can't see how you view this so one-sidedly.

[toontra]

The Stern gang did not indiscriminately bomb Arab children...

Once the UN voted in 1948, Israel was supposed to be a done deal. No more terrorism by anybody.

So, after 1948, who did the terrorism? Who invaded in 1967? Who invaded in 1973? Who's been doing suicide bombings ever since? Whose charter specifically spoke to eradicating the state of Israel and all Jews?

It danged sure wasn't Golda Meir.

Ever have a leaky faucet? Going, "Drip, drip, drip..." all night long? Drive you bughouse? Think of it from the Israelis' standpoint as drops of blood and no plumber ever succeeds in stopping it.

Anybody who wants peace in the middle eastern part of the world has gotta figure out how to stop Hamas, et al--and now, Al Qaida.

We could totally go away from the middle east. Leave. Come home entirely. That wouldn't stop the terrorism. Israel could roll over for whatever UN ideas come to pass. That wouldn't stop the terrorism. It will only stop when hatred quits being a way of life in the Arab world--and I don't think that's gonna happen, given what's going on in the madrassahs. And when all the Israelis are dead, they'll find another target.

There is that militant portion of Islam which perverts the religion and blames all Arab problems on the western world, on its ideas and culture. That won't stop with Israel's demise, which is the current focus. Current focus, not sole focus.

'Rat

Rat, You didn't respond to my earlier post, but have broadened the whole thing out (no problem there) whilst avoiding the specific issues raised by the thread's subject.

You really have to stick with the subject in hand for a moment and tell me why you think the Israelis are justified in building the "security" wall deep into occupied territory, rather than on the boundary of their own territory.

[mischief]

Once the UN voted in 1948, Israel was supposed to be a done deal. No more terrorism by anybody.

So, after 1948, who did the terrorism?

Who invaded in 1967? Who invaded in 1973?

Who's been doing suicide bombings ever since?

Whose charter specifically spoke to eradicating the state of Israel and all Jews?

Ever have a leaky faucet? Going, "Drip, drip, drip..." all night long? Drive you bughouse?

Anybody who wants peace in the middle eastern part of the world has gotta figure out how to stop Hamas, et al--and now, Al Qaida.

We could totally go away from the middle east. That wouldn't stop the terrorism. It will only stop when hatred quits being a way of life in the Arab world--and I don't think that's gonna happen, given what's going on in the madrassahs. And when all the Israelis are dead, they'll find another target.

There is that militant portion of Islam which perverts the religion and blames all Arab problems on the western world, on its ideas and culture. That won't stop with Israel's demise, which is the current focus. Current focus, not sole focus.



Okay, lets not oversimplify here...

The Arab world doesn't work like the West. Out here we all act from fairly loose Nationalistic identities. We no longer (excepting Ireland and certain parts of Spain) have murderously stong tribal identities that go beyond even National identities. We each have an international and personalized identity that juxtaposes our self image with our technology-enhanced view of the world.

In those places where Fundamentalist Islam flourishes, none of these things are true... Quite the opposite. The Tribal Factionalism that exists is both ancient and all pervasive. The clerics and tribal chiefs are often the only members of society with any clue what goes on beyond the next village. The level of illiteracy and poverty combined with lack of tellecom makes manipulating the populace a relatively easy affair.

Add to this the facts that Westerners have been invading for their own purposes for.... well... 4000 odd years. Add also the fact that in the last century the Western powers have attempted to strike western style deals with one tribe or other, providing modern weapons, infrastructure and intel with no attempt to bring the culture out of tribalism.

There is also a behaviour among these groups that bewilders Westerners to no end: When threatened by a non-muslim power ALL the effected and adjacent tribes and nations galvanize to repel the invader. As soon as the threat is repelled (or sieged) things often decay to infighting again.

It's important to keep in mind the layers of loyalty that are used out there. Primary loyalty is to Family, then to community, then to tribal affiliation, then to religious faction, then to Islam, then to historical pride in all of the previous and FINALLY to western style National ID.

So to address your points:

Egypt and Syria are the typical agressors in open warfare. The Arab groups adjacent rattle their sabres in support. Israel has a history in the region going back a VERY LONG TIME as being an "outsider" group to be repelled because they are a different culture. The region is extremely Xenophobic and always has been.

The suicide bombings are done by poor people... these folks are the same as those who Mule for the Columbians. Poor, hopeless and desperate to bring cash aid to their families. The Cowardly men who outfit them that are attatched to organized international Terrorist and Criminal organizations are the real villains and you won't ever see them in combat or with a bomb strapped on.

As to the leaky faucet: Do you use a sledge hammer to fold the pipe behind the bad valve? Or do you carefully examine and research how to fix the problem?

Your last paragraphs say it all. We need to adress the isolation, economic desperation, mistrust and lack of education in the areas where organizations like Hammas and Al Quaida do their recruiting.

Like the NRA and most other Terorrist Organizations, Al quaida and Hammas are really more like Temp agencies or Venture Capitalist networks. Extremists get in contact with them with a proposal to do this or that and the "good" ideas are refined, funded and implemented.

It's also important to remember that these are not the kind of Monolithic organizations that exist so commonly in the west. They're more like Franchises. You have a Cell here or there of several Killer Kooks that use a variety of indirect favours to buy both communication with the money-men like OBL and the services they get to facilitate their crimes. This isn't Pepsico, it's Blockbuster Video or Tony and Alba's Pizza. Sure there's Pepsico's providing funds to get things rolling but the vast bulk of the network is made up of Cells of low-budget extremists.

Back to the topic at hand:

A major lynchpin is that for some in Israel there is no Capital City but Jerusalem. The fact that their ancient holy city is a stronghold for foreign terrorist cells making use of migrant Phillistines raises their hackles to a point where rational, long term thought goes out the window... it's the Babylonian occupation all over again for these individuals.

[Taft]

Back to the topic at hand:

A major lynchpin is that for some in Israel there is no Capital City but Jerusalem. The fact that their ancient holy city is a stronghold for foreign terrorist cells making use of migrant Phillistines raises their hackles to a point where rational, long term thought goes out the window... it's the Babylonian occupation all over again for these individuals.

Great post.

I think this last point is one that is egregiously unreported in the US. It is a fact that some Israelis think they have a God given right to Jerusalema and the surrounding area. These people will often resort to extreme measures to take back that land (ie trying to force the Palestinians off that land). Some of these people are in positions of power in the government/army of Israel.

So on one side you have extremists trying to push Israelis into the sea. And on the other, you have extremists trying to push the Palestinians into the sea. Their methods may be different but the level of hatred, and their conviction in carrying out their "God given order," is the same.

Taft

[Taft]

Okay, lets not oversimplify here...
Like the NRA and most other Terorrist Organizations, Al quaida and Hammas are really more like Temp agencies or Venture Capitalist networks. Extremists get in contact with them with a proposal to do this or that and the "good" ideas are refined, funded and implemented.

It's also important to remember that these are not the kind of Monolithic organizations that exist so commonly in the west. They're more like Franchises. You have a Cell here or there of several Killer Kooks that use a variety of indirect favours to buy both communication with the money-men like OBL and the services they get to facilitate their crimes. This isn't Pepsico, it's Blockbuster Video or Tony and Alba's Pizza. Sure there's Pepsico's providing funds to get things rolling but the vast bulk of the network is made up of Cells of low-budget extremists.

This post also reminded me of perhaps the greatest piece of satire to ever cover this topic: Monty Python's Life of Brian.

If anyone hasn't seen it, they should. And think about the Palestinian/Israeli situation and terrorist cells when you watch it. Its really a scathing send-up of mob mentality and hatred. Good stuff.

Taft

[Sayhey]

This post also reminded me of perhaps the greatest piece of satire to ever cover this topic: Monty Python's Life of Brian.

If anyone hasn't seen it, they should. And think about the Palestinian/Israeli situation and terrorist cells when you watch it. Its really a scathing send-up of mob mentality and hatred. Good stuff.

Taft

My favorite comedy of all time!

Life of Brian (http://www.apple.com/trailers/independent/life_of_brian-clip.html)

[zimv20]

Life of Brian (http://www.apple.com/trailers/independent/life_of_brian-clip.html)
there's that line i always come back to when i think of what measures are being used to "keep the peace" in iraq, in light of all the statements about saddam being such a tyrant: "[saddam] certainly knew how to keep order; let's face it, [he's] the only one who could in a place like this."

[Taft]

there's that line i always come back to when i think of what measures are being used to "keep the peace" in iraq, in light of all the statements about saddam being such a tyrant: "[saddam] certainly knew how to keep order; let's face it, [he's] the only one who could in a place like this."

That's a good line...and certainly applicable. :)

Filthy Romans!

Taft

[mischief]

That's a good line...and certainly applicable. :)

Filthy Romans!

Taft

Happy to add to the conversation. It's good to be back. LOB was great but I preferred the Meaning Of Life.

[Desertrat]

I didn't respond before now because I was off to the Mighty Metropolis of Thomasville, Jawgia, for errands, lunch and mail-call. :)

I used the leaky faucet analogy because for years no success at peace has been had from various compromises by the Israelis. The various negotiations all the way up through the Carter era brought no net benefit. At some point, anybody becomes ever-harder to deal with. As we see, the Wall is being built where it is because some fed-up people want it there. It is their perception that their security is better from that routing than from some other, and they see any benefit to security as a worthwhile goal.

Overall, what I'm responding to is what I see as some sort of puzzlement as to why the Israelis are behaving as they do, when posters here respond to the opening article. The Israelis are focussed on their own survival, and anybody else's opinion ranks second to that. Whether or not I agree with how they're doing all this is irrelevant.

It's easy for us to sit here at a keyboard and armchair all manner of woulda/coulda/shoulda stuff, but we haven't spent the last 56 years being bombed in our streets, homes, buses, schools and synagogues---and all that with the support of neighboring governments. But it looks to me like there is a division within Israel between those who are ever more hating against past deeds, and those who are tiring of the struggle and are praying for peace at any cost.

I dunno. I've heard of "Peace in our time." before...

It's all well and good to speak of the bombings being done by poor people; that's correct. However, it's the leadership of the hate-groups which provide the money, motivation and training that persuades these poor people to kill themselves in such a fashion. They don't wake up one morning and think, "I'll just go out and blow up myself and some Israelis, today."

Personal opinion? It ain't gonna end over there until the last Israeli is dead.

[IJ Reilly]

The various negotiations all the way up through the Carter era brought no net benefit.

Do you mean to say that the Camp David Accord was of no value? Seriously? Please explain!

[Desertrat]

IJ, I was as full of hope as anybody about the Camp David accords. Carter "done good", we all thought.

However: Is there not now bombing and bulldozing and shooting and wallbuilding? Are not the madrassahs teaching/preaching hatred? Are not the "Joe Sixpack" types of Palestinians in a horrendus trap, with Hamas on one side and the IDF on the other?

No net benefit.

'Rat

[IJ Reilly]

IJ, I was as full of hope as anybody about the Camp David accords. Carter "done good", we all thought.

However: Is there not now bombing and bulldozing and shooting and wallbuilding? Are not the madrassahs teaching/preaching hatred? Are not the "Joe Sixpack" types of Palestinians in a horrendus trap, with Hamas on one side and the IDF on the other?

No net benefit.

'Rat

The Camp David Accords returned the Sinai to Egypt and ended the state of war between Egypt and Israel that had existed for thirty years. Net benefit.

The Accords weren't billed as solving any other problems.

[Desertrat]

Okay, from that standpoint I'll buy it. Less threat to Israel from its west.

The Danegeld we've paid Egypt certainly has helped Israel. Can the Palestinians in Gaza emigrate into Egypt if they so wish?

'Rat

[Taft]

Okay, from that standpoint I'll buy it. Less threat to Israel from its west.

The Danegeld we've paid Egypt certainly has helped Israel. Can the Palestinians in Gaza emigrate into Egypt if they so wish?

'Rat

At this point, the Palestinians wouldn't take the offer if it was on the table. Now, the Palestinians feel they have a right to the land they are on, and I'm not inclined to disagree with them. The Arab countries should have offered a home to the Palestinians long ago.

But, as mischeif pointed out, that just isn't how things work in the Arab world. The Palestinians were as much enemies to the Egyptians at the time as they were their brethren.

Taft

[mischief]

At this point, the Palestinians wouldn't take the offer if it was on the table. Now, the Palestinians feel they have a right to the land they are on, and I'm not inclined to disagree with them. The Arab countries should have offered a home to the Palestinians long ago.

But, as mischeif pointed out, that just isn't how things work in the Arab world. The Palestinians were as much enemies to the Egyptians at the time as they were their brethren.

Taft

Thanx Taft,

If I recall correctly the region now in flux was in that condition for most of the ancient histories as well. The lords and chiefs of the region had a tendency to send runners to Israel, Egypt, Babylonia and Syria, playing all sides against the middle. I think it's extraordinary that those ancient leaders never realized that playing all sides against the middle when you're in the middle is suicide.

This is compounded by the extremely LONG cultural memory of the area and the centuries-deep layers of coup and vendetta. Honestly the only road I can see to peace is through better communication... the problem is that any positive change caused by better comm will be presaged by a few bloodbaths as the new open forum is used to settle scores.

[IJ Reilly]

It's worth keeping in mind, Israel was the product of the British colonial rule established in Palestine after WWI. Many of the borders in the Middle East were decided by the West without consulting the people who actually lived there. They were artificial states created for the convenience of the Western powers. Spoils of war.

Should Arabs have done more to assist their displaced brethren in Palestine? Should they be doing more? Perhaps, but the concept of Arab unity has always been a phantom, and nothing we in the West should ever count upon to heal any wounds or repair the underlying rifts, which were at least in part, Western creations. In addition, the West Bank was part of Jordan before 1967. Although it is technically occupied territory, Israel has been trying for decades to annex it by placing the "facts on the ground" known as settlements. This has only served to make the problems in the region more intractable.

What is the US view on all of this? Despite our rather lopsided policies, miraculously, it still does seem to matter. When George Bush decided to abandon the Middle East peace process in 2001, because it wasn't the kind of political glory he was seeking, the situation grew even graver. So what if Israel decides to level large sections of the West Bank and the Gaza? The US will issue some bad-boy noises in Sharon's direction, but that's about it. We abdicate any influence we might have over Israel, and at the same time, paint another big, red circle on our backs for the Islamic radicals to aim at.

The Palestinian problem is central to the politics of the Middle East and consequently to the entire problem of fundamentalist Islamic terrorism. We can't ignore the latter, so I don't see how we can afford to deny our role in the former.

[mischief]

I think it would be extraordinarilly useful to have each tribe in the area write up a complete history from their perspective. It would be very educational and the compiled writings could be used to make a history far more useful that the one constructed by romanticist/racist western "Archaologists" from centuries past. It would also provide a starting point for negotiating a path out of the current quagmire by having a more complete context on the various views involved.

I would be interested to see where the National (used loosely in this context) lines traditionally fell before the West forced mappable divisions.

[Desertrat]

mischief, I've seen maps from throughout history which show approximate areas of influence of the various ethnic groups and empires. "Historical Maps", maybe, in Google?

'Rat

[mischief]

mischief, I've seen maps from throughout history which show approximate areas of influence of the various ethnic groups and empires. "Historical Maps", maybe, in Google?

'Rat

I wonder:

How close to current lines they are?

How many of those maps were made by "locals"?

Whether there'd be any preference to the "old" lines?

[IJ Reilly]

An early 20th century atlas will probably have many of these traditional ethic areas labeled, although probably not defined by precise boundaries.

[mischief]

An early 20th century atlas will probably have many of these traditional ethic areas labeled, although probably not defined by precise boundaries.

As obnoxious as it would be in modern International circles it would probably be better to just go back to a more generalized "lineless" mode with just the Capitals as fixed and the tribal names put in for the general territories.

[Desertrat]

"Whether there'd be any preference to the "old" lines?"

mischief, that immediately calls to mind "Kurdistan"...

Sliding away from just the middle east, Uganda and Rwanda are examples of the deadliness of arbitrary, European-imposed lines...

Given the problems of Sunnis, Shiites and Kurds in what is now Iraq, my guess is that some form of separation might be better.

'Rat

[mischief]

"Whether there'd be any preference to the "old" lines?"

mischief, that immediately calls to mind "Kurdistan"...

Sliding away from just the middle east, Uganda and Rwanda are examples of the deadliness of arbitrary, European-imposed lines...

Given the problems of Sunnis, Shiites and Kurds in what is now Iraq, my guess is that some form of separation might be better.

'Rat

Precisely. These are groups less bound by territories (beyond ancient City sites) than by heritage. Wouldn't it make more sense to make the loosest border lines possible (Call it the Tribal Republic of Arabia if you like) and have the tribes and factions represented by their traditional leaders in more of a mass tribal council... The way that the North American tribes operated before we showed up. Each tribe gets International recognition as a Nation but International treaties and such are done through the "tribal senate"...

Thbbt... here I am blowing smoke out my arse about one of the world's oldest political minefields.... :p :confused: :eek: ;)

[blackfox]

Very informative and enlightening discussion (that I missed). Thanks to all who contributed...a good read.

[Desertrat]

Ain't hindsight wonderful?

The European worship of "order" sure put a lot of straight lines on maps. Ain't no straight lines in nature, and Joe Sixpack does indeed wander about a lot. Try to make sense out of the shape of Oklahoma, for that matter, or Tom Green County in Texas.

We'd probably all be better off if, in 1947/1948, they'd come up with the idea of "The UN Protectorate of the Holy Land" and had some sort of amorphous blob of area open to whomever desired to live there.

'Rat

[IJ Reilly]

FWIW, I think Jerusalem should be an open city. It's such an important place to so many of the world's faiths, it makes no sense for any one nation to claim it as their capitol.

[mactastic]

Imagine the level of tourism Jerusalem could attract if it was open to all and free of violence....

[skunk]

Imagine the level of tourism Jerusalem could attract if it was open to all and free of violence....
How about the golden sands of Gaza's beaches?

[IJ Reilly]

I don't suppose opening the city would make it free of violence, but I have an idea it will never be free of violence unless it is open. Just one of the many paradoxes of the Middle East.

[Desertrat]

Yeah, IJ, Tom Clancy thought it was a good idea...

:), 'Rat

[IJ Reilly]

Yeah, IJ, Tom Clancy thought it was a good idea...

Well in that case...

[skunk]

Well in that case...
Well in that case they should have the next Olympics in Gaza. That would sort EVERYTHING out.

[mischief]

FWIW, I think Jerusalem should be an open city. It's such an important place to so many of the world's faiths, it makes no sense for any one nation to claim it as their capitol.

Simply because it IS the historical capital of (ancient) Israel. Not to mention it can arguably be called the Capital City of Judaism.

I agree that it would be best for no Natio to "own" it but it's simply not that easy.

I've turned this whole thing over in my head.... I think the only Peace Possible for a place sacred to so many mutually hostile groups is by way of a violent act of Nature/God. If it ain't there no more, no more violence over ownership... Of course then they'd be blaming each other over who's collective Karma brought down the wrath of El/God/Ywh, etc.

[Sayhey]

Simply because it IS the historical capital of (ancient) Israel. Not to mention it can arguably be called the Capital City of Judaism.

I agree that it would be best for no Natio to "own" it but it's simply not that easy.

I've turned this whole thing over in my head.... I think the only Peace Possible for a place sacred to so many mutually hostile groups is by way of a violent act of Nature/God. If it ain't there no more, no more violence over ownership... Of course then they'd be blaming each other over who's collective Karma brought down the wrath of El/God/Ywh, etc.

So the only solution is a pillar of fire descending from heaven and scourging the city of all sinners? Yeah ... right. How about in the real world?

[IJ Reilly]

Simply because it IS the historical capital of (ancient) Israel. Not to mention it can arguably be called the Capital City of Judaism.

I agree that it would be best for no Natio to "own" it but it's simply not that easy.

I've turned this whole thing over in my head.... I think the only Peace Possible for a place sacred to so many mutually hostile groups is by way of a violent act of Nature/God. If it ain't there no more, no more violence over ownership... Of course then they'd be blaming each other over who's collective Karma brought down the wrath of El/God/Ywh, etc.

Ironically, much of the current support for Israel comes from conservative Christians who are awaiting Biblical end-times. Our president believes in these prophecies. IOW, our Middle East policies are based at least in part on hastening armageddon. I find that so comforting, don't you?

[mischief]

So the only solution is a pillar of fire descending from heaven and scourging the city of all sinners? Yeah ... right. How about in the real world?

That's exactly it though... There is no realistic solution that won't cause conflict.

The UN may as well give the lands of ancient Juda and Israel to a Japanese entertainment Company to develop "Holy Land: The Theme Park". It'd be as good a solution as any and all these folks so stuck on ancient history could wear period costumes, repeat the mistakes and great deeds of their progenitors twice a week at 3PM.

Don't forget to eat at the Piscine Miracle Cafe and ride the Martyr Prophet roller coaster with it's unique Cross-shaped harnesses. Or you can walk through the infamous Revelations Haunted House.:rolleyes:

But seriously.... there is no good solution so long as each group chooses hostility over reason and compassion.

[mactastic]

I've often thought that the only solution to the violence over Jerusalem would be to level it completely. Of course that's impossible, but it would probably be the only thing that would be able to bring Jews and Arabs together, if only to fight the destruction of their holy land.

Alas it is simply a fantasy. No possible way to make it happen. Plus there's no guarantee they wouldn't just start fighting over the rubble.

[mischief]

I've often thought that the only solution to the violence over Jerusalem would be to level it completely. Of course that's impossible, but it would probably be the only thing that would be able to bring Jews and Arabs together, if only to fight the destruction of their holy land.

Alas it is simply a fantasy. No possible way to make it happen. Plus there's no guarantee they wouldn't just start fighting over the rubble.

Maybe there is. The world is so dependant on Petroleum that we'll soon be going after places we haven't really looked before... Has anyone deep-surveyed Israel/Palestine? :eek: (Kidding folks... just kidding)

[Desertrat]

"I've often thought that the only solution to the violence over Jerusalem would be to level it completely."

Result: The Israelis would sell the rubble to Fundamentalist Christians, and use the money to hire the Palestinians to rebuild. Having good-paying and steady work, the Palestinians would then have a vested interest in peace and quiet.

Unlikely? Hey, folks rebuild in the same places after floods, earthquakes, hurricanes and tornados. The reconstruction employment reduces crime rates all over the country...

:), 'Rat

[blackfox]

In reference to one of the previous posts, perhaps the US (as it is in the best position technologically and perhaps ideologically)should secretly invest in and develop a "Pillar of Fire" weapon, probably satelitte based...solve the problem right there and by adhering to Biblical methodology, further cement our self-imposed classification as "those favored by God"...

joking, of course, but I can't help but think this is someone's dream w/in the MIC...