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MacBytes
Sep 30, 2009, 08:36 AM
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Category: Apple Hardware
Link: Apple begins to end iPhone exclusivity (http://www.macbytes.com/link.php?sid=20090930093624)
Description:: Apple begins to end its iPhone exclusivity as Vodafone on Tuesday announced it will join France Telecom's Orange and Telefonica's O2 in selling the phone in Britain.

Orange will start selling the popular Apple iPhone in Britain later this year, it said on Monday, when the exclusive contract held by Telefonica's O2 will expire.

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/20090929/apple-begins-end-iphone-exclusivity.htm

Posted on MacBytes.com (http://www.macbytes.com)
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pdjudd
Sep 30, 2009, 10:36 AM
...Outside of the US. The is nothing to suggest that Apple is indicating that they are ending the exclusivity of the iPhone in the US and allowing other carriers to sell it. The prevalence of incompatible technologies guarantees that.

ChrisBrightwell
Sep 30, 2009, 10:44 AM
...Outside of the US. The is nothing to suggest that Apple is indicating that they are ending the exclusivity of the iPhone in the US and allowing other carriers to sell it. There were several direct jabs at AT&T during the iPhone media event in June that illustrate how fed-up Apple is with AT&T.

The prevalence of incompatible technologies guarantees that.Converting a GSM phone to a CDMA phone is non-trivial, but it's well within the range of Apple's capabilities, so a Verizon iPhone is not inconceivable.

pdjudd
Sep 30, 2009, 01:00 PM
There were several direct jabs at AT&T during the iPhone media event in June that illustrate how fed-up Apple is with AT&T.
Yea. There was two, (that was the WWDC keynote, right?) revolving around MMS and tethering (MMS is taken care of, tethering not so much). And yet Apple still renewed its carrier exclusivity agreement with AT&T before. Plus Apple has not publicly said anything to bash AT&T.

Converting a GSM phone to a CDMA phone is non-trivial, but it's well within the range of Apple's capabilities, so a Verizon iPhone is not inconceivable.

I am not saying impossible, but Apple would have to segment their iPhone development to accommodate CDMA and I am not just talking about the radio either. That is no small feat and it would only be useful in the US (Since GSM is more prevalent worldwide by a large margin) and only useful to Verizon who are dumping CDMA to move on to LTE. I am not saying impossible, but it is just plain old unlikely until LTE is more prevalent. Then we can at least talk about similar technology. There really isn't much of a business case for Apple to completely divide their manufacturing resources just for a small boot of customers. Plus there is Verizon as a company you have to deal with (unless you want to sell unlocked which I don't see happening). Verizon is notorious for controlling their platforms.

EDIT: Here (http://technestreport.com/blog/2009/07/20/why-the-iphone-will-forever-and-always-remain-on-the-att-network/)is a story from a couple of months ago that goes into more details about my thoughts.

markredf150
Oct 1, 2009, 09:05 AM
I think Sprint would be the better choice for Apple to go CDMA with. Verizon really waters down potentially great phones. Sprint doesn't do that as much and now that they're in trouble with their customers defecting to AT&T for the iPhone, if Sprint offered it, they'd get more customers back. I've been on the fence about going to AT&T and leaving Sprint just for the iPhone, but I've been petrified at the horror stories of AT&T's coverage (more like lack of it). I've had Sprint and never had problems with the service (just the customer service, on some bills I've noticed things that they weren't supposed to charge me for but did, so I had to phone-wrestle with customer service), except for, understandably, steel buildings (but at least I can make calls here at home). I want an iPhone. I just don't want to be bullied by AT&T. Ha, maybe if Apple made a Sprint version of the Jesus Phone, they could replace the SIM card slot with a microSD slot, unless they decide to keep it for international customers.

pdjudd
Oct 1, 2009, 09:26 AM
I think Sprint would be the better choice for Apple to go CDMA with. Verizon really waters down potentially great phones. Sprint doesn't do that as much and now that they're in trouble with their customers defecting to AT&T for the iPhone, if Sprint offered it, they'd get more customers back.

Sprint would be worse - Their customer hemorrhaging is due to several other factors, the iPhone only being one of them. They are in terrible shape after their acquisition of Nextel which they are still smarting from. They wrote off almost 30 billion from customers who have lost their good will. Their turnover rate is the highest in the industry (probably because of their terrible customer service). Not to mention that Sprint is devoted to Wi-Max which is not where the industry is going toward.

I really doubt that Apple would really want a company that is doing so poorly.

Rodimus Prime
Oct 1, 2009, 09:36 AM
I am not saying impossible, but Apple would have to segment their iPhone development to accommodate CDMA and I am not just talking about the radio either. That is no small feat and it would only be useful in the US (Since GSM is more prevalent worldwide by a large margin) and only useful to Verizon who are dumping CDMA to move on to LTE. I am not saying impossible, but it is just plain old unlikely until LTE is more prevalent. Then we can at least talk about similar technology. There really isn't much of a business case for Apple to completely divide their manufacturing resources just for a small boot of customers. Plus there is Verizon as a company you have to deal with (unless you want to sell unlocked which I don't see happening). Verizon is notorious for controlling their platforms.

EDIT: Here (http://technestreport.com/blog/2009/07/20/why-the-iphone-will-forever-and-always-remain-on-the-att-network/)is a story from a couple of months ago that goes into more details about my thoughts.


Why would apple do what RIM has done on on there CDMA phones. Blackberry CDMA phones like the Tour and the Storm are still world phones. As such they can and DO run on GSM networks just fine. There is a guy in one of my class who has a unlocked Verizon label storm running on T-Mobile. Apple could easily do that with there iPhone and make the CDMA phones still world phones and allowing it to run on all networks.

Hell if I remember right the places CDMA are currently in the world are US, Canada and China. on a numbers game CDMA has a good part of the world population under its coverage. Land area may be not as much that ways is cover. Population wise CDMA has a huge amount of the world population.

Spock
Oct 1, 2009, 10:03 AM
What's wrong with T-Mobile? They would be the most logical choice in the US. The hardware is already capable of T-Mobile except some changes to 3G and they already support unlocked iPhones on the network. I have always had good luck with their costumer service and the plans they offer are a lot better than AT&T I'm on a T-Mobile iPhone right now.

northy124
Oct 1, 2009, 10:25 AM
iPhone on Orange in UK, yes :D

pdjudd
Oct 1, 2009, 10:36 AM
What's wrong with T-Mobile? They would be the most logical choice in the US. The hardware is already capable of T-Mobile except some changes to 3G and they already support unlocked iPhones on the network. I have always had good luck with their costumer service and the plans they offer are a lot better than AT&T I'm on a T-Mobile iPhone right now.

Outside of the fact that their 3g is on a completely different worldwide frequency, T-Mobile has a much smaller coverage area from what I can tell.

pdjudd
Oct 1, 2009, 10:55 AM
Why would apple do what RIM has done on on there CDMA phones. Blackberry CDMA phones like the Tour and the Storm are still world phones. As such they can and DO run on GSM networks just fine. There is a guy in one of my class who has a unlocked Verizon label storm running on T-Mobile. Apple could easily do that with there iPhone and make the CDMA phones still world phones and allowing it to run on all networks.

Well their current radio provider doesn't have any CDMA products so at the very least they would have to go with another provider - again for a minority group. Not to mention that those dual band radios are bulkier and use more power - one of Apple's biggest enemies.

Hell if I remember right the places CDMA are currently in the world are US, Canada and China. on a numbers game CDMA has a good part of the world population under its coverage. Land area may be not as much that ways is cover. Population wise CDMA has a huge amount of the world population.
Actually, GSM holds about 80% market in the world (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSM). The number of CDMA carriers is going to only go down as companies like Verizon are moving to LTE (based on GSM) along with several Canadian providers. It also looks like China is also moving to LTE as well. This gives you an idea of adoption of LTE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3GPP_Long_Term_Evolution#Carrier_adoption). According to the article I posted above:

Eventually, most carriers worldwide are expected to use LTE, making the aforementioned network incompatibly with Verizon (or even Sprint) a non-starter.

It may take some time, but I really doubt that Apple would make major product changes now, only to do it again years later.

Trust me when I say that Apple is not focused at all on CDMA. They see it going by the wayside in favor of newer standards. Why bother complicating their 2 item product line (3g and 3gs) to support a standard that is largely being replaced? Form the article that I linked:

Apple would rather make one phone that can be sold (and used) worldwide, than to manufacture different models that cater to different wireless networks. Apple can also achieve a greater degree of economies of scale by manufacturing, distributing, and providing support for one worldwide model based on the GSM wireless standard.

Apple only manufactures 2 phones. Most phone carriers like RIM have wide product lines covering a dozen models. What works for RIM may not apply equally to Apple.

OllyW
Oct 1, 2009, 10:59 AM
If a small company like Palm can make CDMA and GSM versions of the Pre why can't Apple do the same with the iPhone? :confused:

Rodimus Prime
Oct 1, 2009, 11:10 AM
Well their current radio provider doesn't have any CDMA products so at the very least they would have to go with another provider - again for a minority group. Not to mention that those dual band radios are bulkier and use more power - one of Apple's biggest enemies.


Actually, GSM holds about 80% market in the world (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSM). The number of CDMA carriers is going to only go down as companies like Verizon are moving to LTE (based on GSM) along with several Canadian providers. It also looks like China is also moving to LTE as well. This gives you an idea of adoption of LTE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3GPP_Long_Term_Evolution#Carrier_adoption). According to the article I posted above:

It may take some time, but I really doubt that Apple would make major product changes now, only to do it again years later.

Trust me when I say that Apple is not focused at all on CDMA. They see it going by the wayside in favor of newer standards. Why bother complicating their 2 item product line (3g and 3gs) to support a standard that is largely being replaced? Form the article that I linked:
e.

Again why cannt apple do it. now yes the dual chip sets might be a little bulkier but power wise that can can be addressed because the phone does not need to power up the part of the phone. If it is running on CDMA no point to power the GSM part of the phone. If running GSM no point to power up the CDMA part. Battery part is mute as far as I am concerned

you point out 80% the world market has GSM coverage but you pass over my point about CDMA coveage coving a huge part of the worlds population. Yes most of those areas also have GSM but does not change the fact that CDMA is used in China, US and Canda. The population of china alone is a huge reason to make it.

As for the argument about LTE standard. It will be YEARS to decades before CDMA is phased out on those carrieres. Verizon and hell AT&T still run the old analog signals all over the place and phones can still use them. Yes it is power hunger to do so for the phones but they still use them if need be. Reason for is the Analog towers have a longer range and were already in place all over the country. Middle nowhere places still grab that singal. Verizon CDMA tech is going to be the same way. They will slowly phase out CDMA on the towers but I will be good money come 2020 hell make it 2030 and they will still be using CDMA all over the place. It is about cost. It is not cost effective to replace all the towers. if you have a network that works might as well keep it going.

pdjudd
Oct 1, 2009, 11:20 AM
If a small company like Palm can make CDMA and GSM versions of the Pre why can't Apple do the same with the iPhone? :confused:

Well for one, Palm has nothing to loose. Second, they have been making phones for years - far longer than Apple has. Palm simply has better partnerships with chip makers from back in the day when they sold the Treo and the Centro. The their business model is selling phones and only phones. Therefore their business model kinda requires them to have a dissected product line or their bottom line suffers. Apple while they make phones, is not a phone company to the extent that Palm is. They don't care about the CDMA market overall because their product is highly desirable enough for people to switch carriers. Obviously the exception is China, but thats a whole 'nother issue. My thought is that Apple feels that the manufacturing costs to do CDMA for a small segment (20% global CDMA and of that they won't get anywhere near that penetration) of the market when GSM is more dominant. Remember my quote:

Apple would rather make one phone that can be sold (and used) worldwide, than to manufacture different models that cater to different wireless networks. Apple can also achieve a greater degree of economies of scale by manufacturing, distributing, and providing support for one worldwide model based on the GSM wireless standard.

Palm probably already has agreements with CDMA chip makers who still sell older palm devices (like the Centro). Apple does not. Their phone business is much smaller.

pdjudd
Oct 1, 2009, 11:45 AM
Again why cannt apple do it. now yes the dual chip sets might be a little bulkier but power wise that can can be addressed because the phone does not need to power up the part of the phone. If it is running on CDMA no point to power the GSM part of the phone. If running GSM no point to power up the CDMA part. Battery part is mute as far as I am concerned

I have not said that they cannot do it. I said that they have little reason to do that. Very different things. Apple's reasoning for not implementing CDMA are not technical nor has that ever been the case. Its about business.

Just for laughs I remember back before the iPhone was announced. Apple was looking for carrier partners and actually started with Verizon. Verizon rejected it and judging by the way they run their network, it looks like Verizon and Apple are not going to be getting back together, It would be like two tigers fighting over a single steak.

Once again, Apple could implement CDMA, but the only conceivable way they could sell it would be unlocked (not very common in the US) - meaning no carrier subsidy and a large price. Apple couldn't realistically sell a phone on the Verizon network - no SIM cards means that Verizon have to approve it. If the phone was locked (and you better believe it will be), Verizon would have to clear it before sales could begin. Apple and Verizon clash far too much. Read that article I posted a few post back:

Letís imagine that these two technological barriers were to somehow disappear. We would still be left with Verizon playing nice with Apple and making up what was lost during iPhone negotiations. If there were a company that would have nearly as big an ego as Apple, it would be Verizon.

Once you really look at things from Apple's perspective, the CDMA potentials looks a lot less desirable. Focusing on GSM (which a lot of companies do - tons of phones are GSM only) makes sense for a phone that has a tiny marketshare already.

you point out 80% the world market has GSM coverage but you pass over my point about CDMA coverage coving a huge part of the worlds population. Yes most of those areas also have GSM but does not change the fact that CDMA is used in China, US and Canda. The population of china alone is a huge reason to make it.


No I didn't. First you have to exclude China from the CDMA market - selling the iPHone in China is not as simple as making a CDMA version. Second, having CDMA cover 20% of the globe is nice, but there is no way that Apple is going to corner anywhere near that market any more than they are going to be able to get massive markeshare in the GSM market. They have only a few percentage points - and thats for an 80% potentia. The math doesn't add up for a company that makes and sells only 2 models of phones. The market is just too flooded. Look at the big picture and you will see that CDMA is way too small for a company that has only sold 21 million (approx) phones.

As for the argument about LTE standard. It will be YEARS to decades before CDMA is phased out on those carrieres. Verizon and hell AT&T still run the old analog signals all over the place and phones can still use them. Yes it is power hunger to do so for the phones but they still use them if need be. Reason for is the Analog towers have a longer range and were already in place all over the country. Middle nowhere places still grab that singal. Verizon CDMA tech is going to be the same way. They will slowly phase out CDMA on the towers but I will be good money come 2020 hell make it 2030 and they will still be using CDMA all over the place. It is about cost. It is not cost effective to replace all the towers. if you have a network that works might as well keep it going.

I never said that LTE was coming tommorow or anything. I said in the future. Again, all I was saying is that LTE makes CDMA problems become a smaller issue. It doesn't eliminate them (nor was I implying that).

Spock
Oct 1, 2009, 04:19 PM
Outside of the fact that their 3g is on a completely different worldwide frequency, T-Mobile has a much smaller coverage area from what I can tell.

As I noted in my post, a little work would need to be done to the 3G.
The iPhone would be the perfect boost for T-Mobile and give them the ability to increase coverage area.

pdjudd
Oct 1, 2009, 04:39 PM
As I noted in my post, a little work would need to be done to the 3G.
The iPhone would be the perfect boost for T-Mobile and give them the ability to increase coverage area.

Every indication I have seen indicates that T-mobile's 3g frequency is not possible on the current chipset. They are the only folks even using that frequency.. Its also no easy task to get additional coverage area. That takes a lot of time and resources to roll something like that out.

From the article I posted before:

Unlike an iPhone for Sprint, making the device available on the T-Mobile network would seem easy enough: just put in a T-Mobile SIM card and off you go, right? Not so fast: T-Mobile operates its 3G data network on the 1700MHz spectrum. No other carrier in the world does this, AT&T included. I have seen rumors on the interwebs about the iPhone wireless chip having the ability to operate on this band, but there is nothing official from Apple confirming this.

So we are probably talking about a redesign no matter where you go at this point. Although the technology is the same, its only so on the 2G speeds. That and the fact that T-Mobile doesn't have the coverage that AT&T does.

Lets be honest, the only viable carrier for the iPhone outside of At&t that offers the network speeds and availability that AT&T offers that is healthy enough is Verizon. And they are the last company that Apple is going to want now.