"You're a nut job." "Oh yeah? Well why don't you die quickly?"

[Thomas Veil]

(CNN) (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/09/30/dem-takes-heat-for-die-quickly-comment/) – Republicans are pouncing on a late-night House floor speech from Rep. Alan Grayson, during which the freshman Florida Democrat said the Republican health care plan calls for sick people to "die quickly."

"It's a very simple plan," Grayson said in the speech Tuesday night. "Don't get sick. That's what the Republicans have in mind. And if you get sick America, the Republican health care plan is this: die quickly."

The after-hours speech, which included prominent banners behind the congressman to reinforce his point, drew immediate calls from some Republicans for an apology.Yeah, well, if you're in Congress you probably shouldn't base your speech off bumper sticker slogans.

(CNN) (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/09/30/steele-calls-tom-friedman-a-nut-job-over-latest-column/) – Republican National Committee Chairman Michael Steele Wednesday beat back suggestions from some political commentators — most recently from the New York Times' Tom Friedman — that conservative opposition to President Obama is creating a political climate that may foreshadow attempts of violence against the commander-in-chief.

"Where do these nut jobs come from? Come on, stop this," Steele told CNN's John Roberts on American Morning in direct response to a quote from Friedman's column Wednesday equating the current political environment to that which occurred ahead of Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin's assassination in 1995.

"To make those equations, examples and put that out there that way, to me is just crazy and yeah, I'm sorry, but if you're going to approach this discussion, approach it from a rational position," Steele continued.For someone who supposedly heads the party, Steele seems remarkably aware of what is happening to it. He's got enough nutcases in his own flock to worry about without calling out some Times columnist.

Such is the level of discourse among our elected officials nowadays.

[Macaddicttt]

Anyone else think it's quite ironic that Republicans are upset over Grayson's remarks after the whole death panel thing?

[Zombie Acorn]

Anyone else think it's quite ironic that Republicans are upset over Grayson's remarks after the whole death panel thing?

No, its politics. Im pretty sure the dems were criticized for bringing a dumbass resolution for "you lie". Now the repubs will do the same.

[NT1440]

No, its politics. Im pretty sure the dems were criticized for bringing a dumbass resolution for "you lie". Now the repubs will do the same.

They asked for an apology to congress for breaking the decorum rules, its standard procedure.

[Zombie Acorn]

They asked for an apology to congress for breaking the decorum rules, its standard procedure.

Standard procedure in a time that more important legislation could be worked on.

[Macaddicttt]

No, its politics. Im pretty sure the dems were criticized for bringing a dumbass resolution for "you lie". Now the repubs will do the same.

Wait, you don't think it's ironic that Republicans are upset for someone saying that their healthcare ideas will force people to die, after they leveled the exact same charge against Democrats with the death panel nonsense? I don't think you understand the definition of irony.

[thegoldenmackid]

Standard procedure in a time that more important legislation could be worked on.

Yes, that's why we are still talking about. Could we just move on. The Republicans just need to shut up about how there are "bigger issues" then X; because they are making a mockery of being politicians. And the Democrats should figure out whether they want to pass the bill that was supposed to occur in August.

[bobber205]

While I agree with the point the congressman was making, I do think going to such extremes in inappropriate, especially on the house floor. His point could have been made without the language he used.

[NT1440]

Standard procedure in a time that more important legislation could be worked on.

Do you even know how much time was wasted?

I keep hearing this bogus claim from people "they're are more important things to work on" yet they don't seem to know what they are.....

[Zombie Acorn]

Do you even know how much time was wasted?

I keep hearing this bogus claim from people "they're are more important things to work on" yet they don't seem to know what they are.....

there.

I watched the resolution being brought on the floor, they wasted more time then I would have given them if I were paying their salary.. oh wait...

Anything would have been more important than this, they could have contemplated another way to help our economic crisis and failed at it and it would have been a better use of time.

[thegoldenmackid]

there.

I watched the resolution being brought on the floor, they wasted more time than I would have given them if I were paying their salary.. oh wait...

Anything would have been more important than this, they could have contemplated another way to help our economic crisis and failed at it and it would have been a better use of time.

Clearly the time would have been better spent honoring Michael Jackson.

[Zombie Acorn]

Clearly the time would have been better spent honoring Michael Jackson.

Don't get me started on the media coverage of michael jackson. :mad:

[mkrishnan]

That makes this Dilbert seem all the more appropriate.

http://dilbert.com/dyn/str_strip/000000000/00000000/0000000/000000/60000/9000/200/69225/69225.strip.gif

[Shivetya]

Since the Federal Government prevents people from freely buying insurance across state lines it can be said the Federal Government lets people die.

[NT1440]

Since the Federal Government prevents people from freely buying insurance across state lines it can be said the Federal Government lets people die.

While I agree that you definitely should be able to buy across state lines (we had the misfortune recently of finding out our families health coverage doesn't cover my sister in college, after she got sick, I'd love to see that as part of the reform) I have to ask yet again, what would the incentive be to keep costs down? At some point they will all hit a level that no company will want to go lower then, and that doesn't mean it will be affordable.

[AP_piano295]

While I agree that you definitely should be able to buy across state lines (we had the misfortune recently of finding out our families health coverage doesn't cover my sister in college, after she got sick, I'd love to see that as part of the reform) I have to ask yet again, what would the incentive be to keep costs down? At some point they will all hit a level that no company will want to go lower then, and that doesn't mean it will be affordable.

Also you have to consider the possibility of price fixing everyone assumes that American companies operate within a competitive system though history has shown us this is not always the case. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysine_price-fixing_conspiracy

Bottom line the only thing that can truly control heath care costs w/o risks of industry price fixing (and other private industry problems/temptatiosn) is government run heathcare that isnt' focoused on profit.

[NT1440]

Also you have to consider the possibility of price fixing everyone assumes that American companies operate within a competitive system though history has shown us this is not always the case. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysine_price-fixing_conspiracy



Thats what I was trying to get at, but to be honest, I forgot the term price fixing :o

[Thomas Veil]

While I agree that you definitely should be able to buy across state lines....I don't see what good that would do. Everything is the same in the US. All we'd be doing is making big companies even bigger.

Although you've inspired an interesting thought: I wonder what it would be like if Canada or some other foreign country with a more efficient system and cost controls were allowed to open up hospitals in the US, and their governments were allowed to sell us insurance? Basically a imported HMO.

[bobber205]

Also you have to consider the possibility of price fixing everyone assumes that American companies operate within a competitive system though history has shown us this is not always the case. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysine_price-fixing_conspiracy

Bottom line the only thing that can truly control heath care costs w/o risks of industry price fixing (and other private industry problems/temptatiosn) is government run heathcare that isnt' focoused on profit.

This price fixing case is what the movie "The Informant" was based upon fyi. :)

[Zombie Acorn]

Thats what I was trying to get at, but to be honest, I forgot the term price fixing :o

As we can see price fixing schemes work out really well in the end... when you are getting fined millions by the US.

[NT1440]

As we can see price fixing schemes work out really well in the end... when you are getting fined millions by the US.

yet companies keep partaking in them....

[Zombie Acorn]

yet companies keep partaking in them....

Ive studied corporate cases in quite a few industries, no signs of price fixing in any of the major industries. In fact competition is ferocious as ever.

[bobber205]

Ive studied corporate cases in quite a few industries, no signs of price fixing in any of the major industries. In fact competition is ferocious as ever.

It's hard as hell for the FBI to prove those cases. I highly doubt an amateur studying them could dig up anything.

[Zombie Acorn]

It's hard as hell for the FBI to prove those cases. I highly doubt an amateur studying them could dig up anything.

Proving and being able to see something are two different things. The later is much easier. Its blatently obvious in most industries that there is no price fixing going on.

Most of your price fixing is going to be happening in inputs anyways, we don't really do much of that in the US anymore.

[AP_piano295]

As we can see price fixing schemes work out really well in the end... when you are getting fined millions by the US.

They probably made more than they were fined....so where is the deterrent value?

[abijnk]

Ive studied corporate cases in quite a few industries, no signs of price fixing in any of the major industries. In fact competition is ferocious as ever.

I've never seen a duck billed platypus in real life, but I still believe they exist.

This price fixing case is what the movie "The Informant" was based upon fyi. :)

Which is a very good movie. :)

[Zombie Acorn]

I've never seen a duck billed platypus in real life, but I still believe they exist.

Its obvious cases have existed. In US industry its going to be very tough to pull off a scheme like this, so its probably happening about as many times as you see a duck billed platypus.

[Zombie Acorn]

They probably made more than they were fined....so where is the deterrent value?

You'd have to have some facts for me to even start to respond to that statement.

[Pocket lint]

Its obvious cases have existed. In US industry its going to be very tough to pull off a scheme like this, so its probably happening about as many times as you see a duck billed platypus.

Funny, US industries seems to be less regulated than most anywhere in the world, yet you're confident that these things don't happen in the US, despite it happening every else - even in countries more regulated, in countries where there is ´much more focus on these things.
And your argument? That you have "studied" "industries. Price fixing happens. Even in the US. Whether or not you like it, and whether or not your studies show it.
An abscence of evidence is not evidence of absence, as you seem to argue (i.e. because you have found nothing, therefore it doesn't exist).

[Zombie Acorn]

Funny, US industries seems to be less regulated than most anywhere in the world, yet you're confident that these things don't happen in the US, despite it happening every else - even in countries more regulated, in countries where there is ´much more focus on these things.
And your argument? That you have "studied" "industries. Price fixing happens. Even in the US. Whether or not you like it, and whether or not your studies show it.
An abscence of evidence is not evidence of absence, as you seem to argue (i.e. because you have found nothing, therefore it doesn't exist).

Pull out the tinfoil hats, its party time.

So far for corporate America:

1) They enslave Americans

2) They price fix even though our markets are highly competitive

3) They kick people's dogs and rape their mothers.

4) The government will save us from them even though they are the ones causing the problems by giving unfair advantages for campaign donations.

[Pocket lint]

Pull out the tinfoil hats, its party time.
Really?

So far for corporate America:

1) They enslave Americans
I didn't say that. Strawman.

2) They price fix even though our markets are highly competitive
Unsubstantiated claim based on what can be considered a random sample done by yourself.

3) They kick people's dogs and rape their mothers.
Yes, and pigs can fly. Stop with the ridiculous strawmen.


4) The government will save us from them even though they are the ones causing the problems by giving unfair advantages for campaign donations.

Er, logical leap, much?

First of, I never said anything of the sort. I simply find it rather naive to believe that because you personally couldn't find any price fixing in your personal "studies", therefore it must be as rare as seeing a duck billed platypus: Almost never seen.

THAT is what I mean by "absense of evidence does not mean there is evidence of absense," but that's what you're claiming.

[Zombie Acorn]

Really?


I didn't say that. Strawman.


Unsubstantiated claim based on what can be considered a random sample done by yourself.


Yes, and pigs can fly. Stop with the ridiculous strawmen.




Er, logical leap, much?

First of, I never said anything of the sort. I simply find it rather naive to believe that because you personally couldn't find any price fixing in your personal "studies", therefore it must be as rare as seeing a duck billed platypus: Almost never seen.

THAT is what I mean by "absense of evidence does not mean there is evidence of absense," as you're claiming.

Unfortunately even though you didn't say anything many other posters on this board have, so I have to lump them all together. It is probably unfair so I apologize.

I do not enjoy the corporate world being portrayed as always evil that happens on these boards.

[Pocket lint]

Unfortunately even though you didn't say anything many other posters on this board have, so I have to lump them all together. It is probably unfair so I apologize.

I do not enjoy the corporate world being portrayed as always evil that happens on these boards.


That's okay. Of course they're not always evil.
However, the bigger a corporation is, the risk of it trotting on the individual is so much bigger. Simply because the individual matters less the bigger the corporation.
With that said, I'm not claiming that cartels are in every industry or even "widespread". I'm merely saying that it's propably quite a lot more widespread than the chance of seeing a duck billed platypus.