Have a problem with your iPhone? Do NOT show a Genius your gun.... [Archive]

lostprophet894

Oct 2, 2009, 02:43 PM

rjohnstone

Oct 2, 2009, 02:44 PM

a.k.a. "Assault"
Hardly. :rolleyes:

It's called brandishing, not assault.
He will lose his CCW permit for this idiotic act.

He was also on private property where firearms were prohibited.
While that is not an illegal act, it will most likely get him banned from the property in the future.
A CCW permit does not grant you the right to carry any place you want to.

MasterDev

Oct 2, 2009, 02:44 PM

So did they replace his phone? :D

rjohnstone

Oct 2, 2009, 02:48 PM

I've always thought legally aquiring a CCW permit is a lot easier than it should be. This clown is a perfect example of why. It gives all of us a bad image.

Unfortunately, aside from the criminal background check there really isn't much more that can be done. Being denied the right to carry because a few people said you're a irresponsible dip**** would probably seem unfair to many. :rolleyes:
Depends on what state you get your permit from.
Here in AZ, on top of the criminal background checks, you are required to take proper firearms training classes (8 hours total) by a certified instructor and PASS the subsequent test on the class before a permit is issued.
The classes cover every aspect of what it means to carry and you have to prove that you can actually use your weapon properly. Fumbling idiots will never pass this part of the test.

lostprophet894

Oct 2, 2009, 02:58 PM

Depends on what state you get your permit from.
Here in AZ, on top of the criminal background checks, you are required to take proper firearms training classes (8 hours total) by a certified instructor and PASS the subsequent test on the class before a permit is issued.
The classes cover every aspect of what it means to carry and you have to prove that you can actually use your weapon properly. Fumbling idiots will never pass this part of the test.

The same laws apply here in VA. However, my room mates and I hired a certified instructor to come to our home where we hosted nine other people and I'll tell you that an infant monkey could have qualified. There was no written test and the range portion was even easier. Demonstrating proper form while shooting one and two handed doesn't take intelligence or street smarts.

I qualified for my CCW because I was a rifleman in the Marine Corps for four years and had it for almost two years before taking this course so I don't feel like I have much to worry about but believe me when I say that anybody who hasn't been caught doing something illegal and can follow simple instructions can get a permit. In my opinion, the local government has the attitude of "you're applying and haven't been proven a criminal, so we'll trust you".

caligurl

Oct 2, 2009, 03:02 PM

what a moron!

iHateMacs

Oct 2, 2009, 03:06 PM

What's the point in being able to harry a hidden gun if as soon as you threaten to use it, the police are called. That's no fun. You might as well have a banana under your jacket.

vivithemage

Oct 2, 2009, 03:10 PM

What's the point in being able to harry a hidden gun if as soon as you threaten to use it, the police are called. That's no fun. You might as well have a banana under your jacket.

A gun is not meant to be shown around like a toy.

army91c

Oct 2, 2009, 03:18 PM

A gun is not meant to be shown around like a toy.

+1

The point of concealed carry is just that, concealed. I have my CCW here in Colorado and you will NEVER know I have a weapon on my person unless I am pulling it to use it to protect my or another persons' life. Boneheads like this guy deserve to lose their CCW and be charged to the fullest extent of the law.
I do encourage any one that is able and feels comfortable to get their CCW... The life you save might just be your own.

vivithemage

Oct 2, 2009, 03:20 PM

Exactly army91c, I don't even have my CCW yet!

ucfgrad93

Oct 2, 2009, 03:21 PM

That guy is a complete idiot. I'm glad no one was hurt.

nateo200

Oct 2, 2009, 03:28 PM

WOW. I hope he gets his CCW permit taken away for this. That is just dumb, probably some stupid hick thinking hes boss trying to be funny not knowing whats socially acceptable these days. Might as well scream bomb in an airport....

Jumpie

Oct 2, 2009, 04:35 PM

He was probably from Hamiltucky. lmao

rjohnstone

Oct 2, 2009, 04:40 PM

The same laws apply here in VA. However, my room mates and I hired a certified instructor to come to our home where we hosted nine other people and I'll tell you that an infant monkey could have qualified. There was no written test and the range portion was even easier. Demonstrating proper form while shooting one and two handed doesn't take intelligence or street smarts.

You get to have instruction at home?
In AZ you have to go to a certified shooting range.
A written test and a range test are required.

The following are course requirements for getting a CCW in AZ: (This does not include all the age and background checks)

Firearm Safety
Range Qualifications
Personal Protection
Types of Handguns
Ballistics
Judgmental Shooting
Mental Conditioning
Arizona Firearm Laws
Review New Case Laws
Current Legislation
Interfacing with Law Enforcement
Justification - Use of Deadly Force
Fundamentals of Pistol Marksmanship

fishmoose

Oct 2, 2009, 04:48 PM

So when do we get an app to simulate this? Genius Gun it should be called.

EarthDawn

Oct 3, 2009, 01:49 AM

That guy is a complete idiot. I'm glad no one was hurt.

Absolutly ... What Nut !

electroshock

Oct 3, 2009, 02:05 AM

So when do we get an app to simulate this? Genius Gun it should be called.

The Genius should've told the guy:

"Sir, I think you're looking for the Saltpeter Bar... it's at, uh... one sec... <gives address of the nearest gun shop>"

:D

Reminds me of the time I saw, many years ago, an extremely frustrated but now satisfied customer bring in his hard drive with a nice, neat bullet hole in it (which went through cleanly at a diagonal angle). Said it was spewing all sorts of crap for a while; one day he got tired of it and impulsively shot it in a fit of rage. When he cooled down, he suddenly realized that perhaps it might be a good idea to try and get data off it. That's when he brought it in. :D

jabingla2810

Oct 3, 2009, 02:19 AM

Being from the UK, I cant even begin to understand why anyone would want a gun?

I think its rediculas, stupid, and people who watch too many hollywood movies dont take the fact they have a gun in their hands seriously enough.

Anyhow, thats a conversation for another part of the forum I think :)

But yeah, hope at the very least he gets his gun taken from him....

But then he'll go into the hood and fall in with a bad crowd... and he'll get a gun illeagally.... and even when his new maths teacher, who has been warned that most of the kids in his class will end up dead or in jail, has a serious talk with him.... its too late, and a rival gang alreally out to kill him..... and if his grades dont improve he cant play for the basketball team... which is a shame because thats his one tallent... but he's too bothered about looking hard infront of his gang members..... and the week before a coach from a posh college comes to watch him play.... he's out walking in the street, on the way to tell a girl he got pregnant, that he's gonna leave the gang and focus on getting into college, but he gets killed in a drive by....
and the moral is, you know, do well at school or something....

Maybe ive been watching too many american movies.... but im pretty sure thats exactly what happens to people like him.... :D

rjohnstone

Oct 4, 2009, 01:28 AM

Being from the UK, I cant even begin to understand why anyone would want a gun?

I think its rediculas, stupid, and people who watch too many hollywood movies dont take the fact they have a gun in their hands seriously enough.

Anyhow, thats a conversation for another part of the forum I think :)

There are literally MILLIONS of gun owners in the USA who are normal, law abiding citizens. We are responsible adults who know that with this right comes the responsibility to posses and use our firearms in a safe manner.
Movies are meant to entertain, not to be an example to live ones life by.

Approx. 29,000 gun related deaths were reported last year in the US of which approx 50% were suicides.
Compare that number to 1999 where there were approx 28,000.
Given that the population increased by roughly 33 million (272 million in 1999 vs 305 million in 2009), gun related deaths as a percentage of the population have gone down.

Compare that to 80,000 alcohol related deaths or the 400,000+ that died last year in car accidents.
Booze and cars should be outlawed before the guns. ;)

But I agree.. another conversation for another time.

stevetim

Oct 4, 2009, 06:24 AM

I carry an H&K P2000 .40 every day.

People who grew up around guns like I did know to treat them as tools, and not as leverage in a situation or for "show".

Ohio, incidentally where I am from and traveling to today for some Browns football, is full of people who just don't even think twice about showing their weapons around. I don't mean showing them like the idiot at Apple did, but showing them off like a new car. It's a totally different mentality there.

CCW or Concealed Carry rights were only made legal in Ohio in the last couple of years. So, you are going to have some people that need to be weeded out as the flasher will be.

benflick

Oct 4, 2009, 09:02 AM

Hah, happened at my local Apple store. I was just there Friday too.

tofagerl

Oct 4, 2009, 09:03 AM

Heh, this makes me giggle. Two surefire ways to get in the papers: Guns and Iphones!

iPhone 62S

Oct 4, 2009, 09:05 AM

LMAO! :D

My daily LOL is sorted :p

In a more serious note, America should outlaw guns anyway, though I understand that will most likely never happen because they're part of the culture there, much like alcohol is in most of the world.

iPhone 62S

Oct 4, 2009, 09:06 AM

Heh, this makes me giggle. Two surefire ways to get in the papers: Guns and Iphones!

"Surefire", LOL :p

Konz

Oct 4, 2009, 12:35 PM

Being from the UK, I cant even begin to understand why anyone would want a gun?I can't even begin to understand why anyone would want to give violent criminals the upper hand by NOT owning a gun.

Would you want to face a gun-wielding criminal with nothing more than your bare hands? Or a can of pepper spray?

It makes perfect sense to own a gun in a country where violent criminals often carry and use them.

I think its rediculas, stupid, and people who watch too many hollywood movies dont take the fact they have a gun in their hands seriously enough.ridiculous* ;)

iPhone 62S

Oct 4, 2009, 12:50 PM

I can't even begin to understand why anyone would want to give violent criminals the upper hand by NOT owning a gun.

Would you want to face a gun-wielding criminal with nothing more than your bare hands? Or a can of pepper spray?

It makes perfect sense to own a gun in a country where violent criminals often carry and use them.

ridiculous* ;)

It's been proven that carrying a weapon for defense is more likely to do harm to you than protect you.

mkrishnan

Oct 4, 2009, 12:59 PM

Must've seen this Youtube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2ihoH8pps0) and tried to one-up? :confused:

Konz

Oct 4, 2009, 01:24 PM

It's been proven that carrying a weapon for defense is more likely to do harm to you than protect you.Doubt it. The only thing they could possibly prove is that idiots hurt themselves, but guns alone can't be blamed.

iPhone 62S

Oct 4, 2009, 01:32 PM

Doubt it. The only thing they could possibly prove is that idiots hurt themselves, but guns alone can't be blamed.

The Police here put out that stastic themselves, and they came to my school and showed plus a number of cases (with pictures) where it was true in a PowerPoint.

Konz

Oct 4, 2009, 01:40 PM

The Police here put out that stastic themselves, and they came to my school and showed plus a number of cases (with pictures) where it was true in a PowerPoint.Little ironic that the guys who carry guns all day every day would come to your school and say carrying guns causes more harm than good, no? :D

I'm just saying they need to revise their statistics to account for the intelligent, responsible people who don't run around brandishing guns because they think it makes them tough or cool. It's entirely possible for normal, everyday citizens to get the necessary training to handle them safely.

It's definitely a case of "guns don't kill people, people kill people." There's nothing inherently dangerous about a mature, educated person carrying a gun. It gets dangerous when you add idiots and children into the equation.

tofagerl

Oct 4, 2009, 01:42 PM

The police in most of europe don't carry firearms. They mostly have them in their cars in a locked box, where they can only get them out in emergencies.

iPhone 62S

Oct 4, 2009, 01:44 PM

Little ironic that the guys who carry guns all day every day would come to your school and say carrying guns causes more harm than good, no? :D

I'm just saying they need to revise their statistics to account for the intelligent, responsible people who don't run around brandishing guns because they think it makes them tough or cool. It's entirely possible for normal, everyday citizens to get the necessary training to handle them safely.

It's definitely a case of "guns don't kill people, people kill people." There's nothing inherently dangerous about a mature, educated person carrying a gun. It gets dangerous when you add idiots and children into the equation.

Actually, the Police here usually don't carry guns unless they are part of a special force or anti-terrorist team or there's a big emergency or something.

Obviously not everyone wants to use a gun for stupidity, but why have one in the first place? You just do not need a damn gun.

tofagerl

Oct 4, 2009, 01:45 PM

iPhone 62S

Oct 4, 2009, 01:47 PM

Basically, criminals in Europe don't carry guns cause they're HARD TO GET. They're hard to get because THERE AREN'T MANY GUNS HERE.

That's why we have a lot less shooting deaths a year than you guys.

Yeah, call us stupid, but we live longer and happier.

Couldn't have put it better myself.

Plus, people who do have guns are very very careful not be caught, because even possession gets you in prison, and selling them will get you a LOT of jail time.

For this reason, people are much less likely to sell and buy guns, and if they do they're highly unlikely to get used in public, especially with all the CCTV.

OllyW

Oct 4, 2009, 01:49 PM

FX120

Oct 4, 2009, 07:20 PM

Is America really that dangerous?

I wouldn't say so.

Personally I look at it this way: If I can legally carry a handgun, and it is no danger or burden on me or the people around me, why not do it?

quagmire

Oct 4, 2009, 07:39 PM

Hardly. :rolleyes:

It's called brandishing, not assault.
He will lose his CCW permit for this idiotic act.

He was also on private property where firearms were prohibited.
While that is not an illegal act, it will most likely get him banned from the property in the future.
A CCW permit does not grant you the right to carry any place you want to.

Actually, it is if it was directed at the employee. As assault is only the motion of doing harm, but not actually doing it.

For example, if I went up to you and said I am going to beat you to a pulp, made a fist, and raised my fist to make you believe that I was really going to starting beating you up, but didn't then you can get me on assault charges. If I did start beating you to a pulp, it would be assault&battery.

electroshock

Oct 4, 2009, 07:59 PM

Is America really that dangerous?

Well, yes and no. If you find yourself in the wrong place and wrong time, it can be. No different from being in the wrong place, wrong time in any other country. Despite that, the odds are still much greater you wouldn't ever be such so violently assaulted, regardless of firearm possession. Given human psychology, fear is the ultimate motivator.

bobber205

Oct 4, 2009, 08:40 PM

Basically, criminals in Europe don't carry guns cause they're HARD TO GET. They're hard to get because THERE AREN'T MANY GUNS HERE.

That's why we have a lot less shooting deaths a year than you guys.

Yeah, call us stupid, but we live longer and happier.

This would be a good way of thinking if we all lived in movies were having a gun is actually a good way to defend yourself against a random intruder to your house or just "on the street" or wherever you're suppose to be attacked. It puts you in much greater danger.

1) If the criminal wasn't planning on killing you (probably most of the time one could reasonable assume) you having a gun makes you a big threat to me, increasing their likelihood to shoot you.

or

2) They are intending to kill you and your having a gun makes you again a much bigger threat. Unless you're Rambo or Chuck Norris, having a gun doesn't make you any safer.

rjohnstone

Oct 5, 2009, 12:05 AM

Actually, it is if it was directed at the employee. As assault is only the motion of doing harm, but not actually doing it.

Assault is a physical act of causing harm to another person.
You can be arrested for threatening someone with bodily harm, but that is still not an assault charge. It's attempted assault.

For example, if I went up to you and said I am going to beat you to a pulp, made a fist, and raised my fist to make you believe that I was really going to starting beating you up, but didn't then you can get me on assault charges. If I did start beating you to a pulp, it would be assault&battery.

Making a fist and raising your hand to someone with the intent to harm is "Attempted assault". It doesn't become and assault charge until you actually strike them.
They key word here is intent. Attorneys love this word because a persons intent is very difficult to prove after the fact.

Revealing a firearm to someone while making threatening comments is called "brandishing", not assault or even attempted assault.
According to the story, the person never removed the gun from its holster, so an attempted assault charge would not apply.

EDIT: Assault and battery are jurisdictional in definition. In jurisdictions that still use those terms, you're example would be relevant the "Assault" charge is actually the attempt without physical contact and the "battery" charge is the actual assault.

The state of AZ does not use the terms Assault and Battery in any court. Only attempted assault and assault.

.Andy

Oct 5, 2009, 12:43 AM

^^^^ wow you really changed the tone and the content of that post. Looks like you did some research following your initial post which required a serious edit and rewrite :D!

VVVVV Perhaps there wasn't enough gun debate angst so it was briefly moved out ;)

anjinha

Oct 5, 2009, 01:06 AM

Is it me or this thread started in the iPhone forums, moved to PRSI, back in the iPhone forums and back to PRSI again? :confused:

Gelfin

Oct 5, 2009, 01:37 AM

Assault is a physical act of causing harm to another person.
You can be arrested for threatening someone with bodily harm, but that is still not an assault charge. It's attempted assault.

Making a fist and raising your hand to someone with the intent to harm is "Attempted assault". It doesn't become and assault charge until you actually strike them.
…
The state of AZ does not use the terms Assault and Battery in any court. Only attempted assault and assault.

Interestingly, in Ohio (http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2903) where this occurred, you'd be correct. Assault is defined specifically in terms of actual harm, while putting someone in fear of imminent harm is classified under the term "Menacing." However, it might interest you to know that in your own state (http://law.onecle.com/arizona/criminal-code/13-1203.html) this is not the case:

A. A person commits assault by:

1. Intentionally, knowingly or recklessly causing any physical injury to another person; or

2. Intentionally placing another person in reasonable apprehension of imminent physical injury; or

3. Knowingly touching another person with the intent to injure, insult or provoke such person.

As in many states, the threat of imminent violence is classified under the same definition as the violence itself, were the threat realized. Doing so with a weapon could escalate the charge to aggravated assault (http://law.onecle.com/arizona/criminal-code/13-1204.html).

Under such a law a prosecutor, if he really wanted to put the screws to this guy, could argue that, even if he had no immediate intent to injure a Genius that day, he might well have intended that the dramatic gesture of displaying a weapon would intimidate some poor kid into offering him more swift and generous service. IANAL, and I gather you aren't either, but that seems to me to plausibly meet the definition of aggravated assault in your state.

Ohio probably has a weapons control law (http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923) that applies, but honestly Ohio's criminal code is a lot denser than Arizona's, and I didn't really feel like wading into it.

mbpnewbie

Oct 5, 2009, 11:17 AM

The same laws apply here in VA. However, my room mates and I hired a certified instructor to come to our home where we hosted nine other people and I'll tell you that an infant monkey could have qualified. There was no written test and the range portion was even easier. Demonstrating proper form while shooting one and two handed doesn't take intelligence or street smarts.

I qualified for my CCW because I was a rifleman in the Marine Corps for four years and had it for almost two years before taking this course so I don't feel like I have much to worry about but believe me when I say that anybody who hasn't been caught doing something illegal and can follow simple instructions can get a permit. In my opinion, the local government has the attitude of "you're applying and haven't been proven a criminal, so we'll trust you".
Tell me Marine, do you regularly advocate the imposition of restrictions on your other constitutional rights as well? Such as the freedom of speech? Or your freedom to not be subject to unreasonable searches and seizures? I find it hilarious and actually a bit sad that none of the armed forces believe in the constitution any more. It has taken me a good 5-6 years living abroad to see what a bunch of hypocratit morons there are living in my former country of residence..

Counterfit

Oct 5, 2009, 02:00 PM

Tell me Marine, do you regularly advocate the imposition of restrictions on your other constitutional rights as well? Such as the freedom of speech?

You don't think you have restrictions on your speech? Go lie about someone on TV, or maybe say you're going to shoot them, or tell someone else to kill them. Let's see how far you get using "free speech!" as your defense.
http://www.youtube.com/v/eJz35Fpzats