Torture

[pseudobrit]

link (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040714/ts_nm/sweden_guantanamo_dc_3)

STOCKHOLM (Reuters) - A Swede released from the U.S. naval base at Guantanamo Bay last week said he had been tortured by exposure to freezing cold, noise and bright lights and chained during his 2 1/2-year imprisonment...

"They put me in the interrogation room and used it as a refrigerator. They set the temperature to minus degrees so it was terribly cold and one had to freeze there for many hours -- 12-14 hours one had to sit there, chained," he said, adding that he had partially lost the feeling in one foot since then...

Ghezali said he was deprived of sleep for about two weeks by constant switching of cells and interrogation, was exposed to powerful flashes of light in a dark room, to very loud music and noise and was chained for long periods in painful positions.

"They forced me down with chained feet. Then they took away the chains from the hands, pulled the arms under the legs and chained them hard again. I could not move," he said.

After several hours his feet were swollen and his whole body was aching. "The worst was in the back and the legs," he said.

Some of these torture methods have also been used by the U.S. military on Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison in a scandal which has embarrassed the U.S. government this year.

Swedish Foreign Minister Laila Freivalds told public radio that if correct, the allegations meant that the U.S. had broken international laws. "That is wholly unacceptable," Freivalds said.

Doing whatever it takes to stop terrorists...

[skunk]

God, it's getting so difficult to be shocked.... :(

[zimv20]

I am sure France and Britian employ simlar treatment to their prisoners.
what makes you think that?


But is it torture? I think this is pretty insignificant stuff if you take the word torture out of the article.
i'm sorry you feel that way, though i'm fairly certain you wouldn't want to be treated that way.

under the geneva convention, this is clearly torture. perhaps you think the GC sets the torture bar too low.

[scem0]

And studies have shown that torture isnt very effective in regards to getting information out of someone.

There's just no excuse... :rolleyes:

scem0

[pseudobrit]

And studies have shown that torture isnt very effective in regards to getting information out of someone.

There's just no excuse... :rolleyes:

scem0

The only reason to torture someone is if both:

a) you know they don't have any valuable information (torture is counterproductive to the interrogation process)

AND

b) you're a sick ****ing sociopathic animal and you get off on it.

I'm glad to see this is the image we're projecting around the world.

[pseudobrit]

I am not surprised a prisoner was treated this way. I am sure France and Britian employ simlar treatment to their prisoners.

What prisoners and where? I know the English were downright awful with the IRA men they've taken in the past, but AFAIK, that's no longer an issue.

But is it torture? I think this is pretty insignificant stuff if you take the word torture out of the article.

Being locked in a freezer for 14 hours is insigificant? Being kept awake for weeks? Being chained to the floor in an unnatural position that causes pain and swelling? Yeah, sounds just like those frat pranksters Rush talks about to me... :rolleyes:

You also have to believe the guy giving the report. (Which I do not.) Since he has everything in the world to gain from lying or exaggerating his complaints.

What's to gain? A book deal? This guy just wants to tell his story.

There is no reason not to believe him yet, and since this is not the first story of its type to come out of a US "non-POW" POW camp, I've every reason to think it's accurate.

[LethalWolfe]

And studies have shown that torture isnt very effective in regards to getting information out of someone.

There's just no excuse... :rolleyes:

scem0

Curious, do you have any good links? I'm interested to read up on it.


Lethal

[pseudobrit]

Curious, do you have any good links? I'm interested to read up on it.


Lethal

It was excerpted in Harper's in '97. A link here (http://www.radio4all.org/crackcia/torture.htm)

[Ugg]

I am not surprised a prisoner was treated this way.


But is it torture? I think this is pretty insignificant stuff if you take the word torture out of the article. You also have to believe the guy giving the report. (Which I do not.) Since he has everything in the world to gain from lying or exaggerating his complaints.

Why are you not surprised? I am truly curious.

Ok, what's your definition of torture.

Why do you not believe him? We know beyond a shadow of a doubt that dozens of the prisoners in Guantanamo were guilty of nothing more than being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Yet, they were held for more than two years. So, according to your statement all of those held at Guantanamo are liars whether or not they are guilty of terrorism. Either you need to expand on your statement or retract it or fess up to your hypocrisy.

[toontra]

How do you know that they were held "beyond the shadow of a doubt" for simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time? Where is your source on this? This is news to me.

The real problem is that no-one (you, me, anyone else) knows why they are being held and why they were detained in the first place. They have been denied the most basic elements of human rights or recourse to any form of legal representation.

That being so, you can be no surer that they are righfully being detained than others are that they are not.

[pseudobrit]

Being chained in uncomfortable positions is being chained at all. Of course it is uncomfortable. Have any of you guys ever been handcuffed? It isn't comfortable.

Okay, have you ever been locked in a freezer for 14 hours?

And Before I go nitpiking his statements away, he has everything in the world to gain by lying. He is hoping that he hurts the people who have been his captors for the last two years. Criminals accuse their jailors falsely everyday!

Fair enough.

Are we supposed to believe this guy simply because he isn't American? That somehow he is more honorable than the evil americans?

This isn't the first accusation. That's why it's credible.

I am tired of feeling empathetic to these losers. This guy was picked up in a warzone. He was helping the enemy of the United States during a time of war.

Why wasn't he charged with a crime? It sounds to me like he was guilty of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. He was picked up by Pakistani villagers and sold to the Pakistani police. Doesn't something about that sound odd to you?

These "torture" accusations are simple a new tool to the American haters of the world. Sure something wasn't right in that Iraqi prison, so now every U.S. prisoner who was ever uncomfortable now has been tortured. I personally am not going to fall for that trap.

As for me not wanting that treatment for myself, no one wants to be treated that way, but I also do not want to get a speeding ticket, nor do I want to be arrested, nor do I want to be locked up in any way. But simply because I do not want it for myself doesn't make it torture. Was this man permanetly injured? Besides his supposed slight loss of feeling in his foot? (notice it isn't a total loss of feeling, you could prove that with a needle, a slight loss is impossible to prove.) I say he wasn't injured. And I say he wasn't tortured.

A new tool to the American haters that we've supplied them with. The Geneva Convention (http://www.hrweb.org/legal/cat.html) disagrees with your standards for torture. What are yours? Floggings? The rack?

[Backtothemac]

Part of training for various government agencies is learning how to be tortured. You go into it with the best intentions of not breaking, but, everyone will break eventually.

So, if we captured Bin Laden, how would you feel about him being tortued for information that would stop attacks?

[skunk]

Part of training for various government agencies is learning how to be tortured. You go into it with the best intentions of not breaking, but, everyone will break eventually.

So, if we captured Bin Laden, how would you feel about him being tortued for information that would stop attacks?
You wouldn't get any. Pointless.

Anyway, it's not about "breaking" people, it's about getting information. Torture is terrorism.

[Backtothemac]

You wouldn't get any. Pointless.

Anyway, it's not about "breaking" people, it's about getting information. Torture is terrorism.

Oh, but you will. Look, we have gotten a ton of info from Kalied Shiek Mohamad. A ton. He designed 9/11 with others, so the question still stands, even if torture is = to terrorism, if we got Bin Laden, and used torture to get info, would it be justified?

Does the ends justify the means?

[skunk]

Oh, but you will. Look, we have gotten a ton of info from Kalied Shiek Mohamad. A ton. He designed 9/11 with others, so the question still stands, even if torture is = to terrorism, if we got Bin Laden, and used torture to get info, would it be justified?

Does the ends justify the means?
No.

[takao]

hm i had lessons/courses about handling POWs,illegal imigrant etc. during my conscription service... which lead to my assumption that _if_ turture does happen, it is intentional.period.

one of my school comrades had a problem during his service because he didn't behave correctly with an imigrant (he used an discriminating word) and had to pay 1500 euro additional to the well known 'equipment cleaning' + weekend duty punishment..who fined him ? the imigrant...no the poor guy didn't even understand the word... the army intern justice got him into trouble...

to flush the own democratic values based on human rights (and binding UN treaties) down the toilet, because of something like terrorism, is more dangerous than terrorism itself... what's next ?'a strong,uniting leader "doing what's need to be done" ' ?

Stelliform: some food of thought..i rephrased one of your sentence
"Are we supposed to believe this guy simply because he _is_ American?"


any discussion about "right or wrong" is misplaced when talking about torture...it should be a discussion about consequences...after all even the most dangerous terrorist is still a human ...

Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much.
Oscar Wilde

[pseudobrit]

So, if we captured Bin Laden, how would you feel about him being tortued for information that would stop attacks?

That's a hypothetical question with an outcome that is not likely. If I knew torturing bin Laden would stop another 9/11, then yes, I'd say go ahead.

But we know that torture would not acheive this purpose because it is counterproductive to the interrogation process.

There is a practical reason to oppose torture that overshadows any moral debate. Somehow this crap gets turned into an anti-bleeding-heart tirade, when it's really just an anti-reality tirade.

[Backtothemac]

That's a hypothetical question with an outcome that is not likely. If I knew torturing bin Laden would stop another 9/11, then yes, I'd say go ahead.

But we know that torture would not acheive this purpose because it is counterproductive to the interrogation process.

There is a practical reason to oppose torture that overshadows any moral debate. Somehow this crap gets turned into an anti-bleeding-heart tirade, when it's really just an anti-reality tirade.


You are right. I just wanted some besides me to agree that if you knew it stop another 9/11 then go for it. Thanks Sec of State ;)

[skunk]

You are right. I just wanted some besides me to agree that if you knew it stop another 9/11 then go for it. Thanks Sec of State ;)
Forgive me for butting in, but he qualified his agreement out of existence. Torture seems to be more for the benefit and amusement of the torturer than for extracting useful information. I maintain that if your civilization depends on torture to survive, you've already lost.

[mactastic]

You are right. I just wanted some besides me to agree that if you knew it stop another 9/11 then go for it. Thanks Sec of State ;)

That's like arguing for the death penalty in cases where the guilt is assured. It's a situation that will never happen. It's akin to solving physics problems 'in the absence of air resistance' as I did in school so often. It's tantalizingly close to a real situation, but oh so different.

Look, if you have enough info to know that torturing bin Laden would stop another 9/11 then you already have planty of info to work with. Besides, he might lie to get you to stop tortuing him.