What Happened? (Apple has forgotten its roots)

[Macpropro80]

Over the last year or so, I have been feeling as though apple has forgotten its roots. I am not going to stop using macs, because they are still better then any PC, but I would like to state my complaints in a public and open forum.

My Problems with Apple INC. (mostly in regards to their Mac Pro and Mac Book Pro Line)

1) Apple has begun to nickel and dime the customer. I recently bought two Nvidia GT120's for my mac pro, neither came with any form of an adapter to use the display ports. These are $150 a piece graphic cards, and yet still, apple made me buy two $100 dual link DVI adapters! My old ati 2600 HD's came with two dual link DVI ports and a DVI to VGA adapter, for $130 a piece.

2) Apple has begun to ignore major software problems. Over the past year I have had more software glitches on my mac pro, then any other computer I have EVER used. iMovie doesn't show all my clips, iPhoto wont export my slideshow, final cut wont render, the list goes on. When ever I call apple care, Which by the way cost me $250 on top of a $4000 machine, they tell me that they do not have a solution and to wait for the next software update. I have an idea apple, Il stop payment on my mac pro next time, and tell you to wait for my new job.

3) Apple has recently enacted on a plan to screw customers with macs older then 3 or 4 years old. My 1 year old mac pro, again a $4000 mac, did not support open CL in Snow Leopard. The only graphic cards I can get to support open CL, cost over $400 a piece, and I cant run 8 displays with them. (I bought the mac pro with the intent to one day run 8 displays) I mean come on! I decided to wing it with the Gt120, and it gives me mouse errors ALL THE TIME. * mouse jump

4) Forcing users to download new software. Example; Itunes. If you want to use the itunes store you need to latest version of itunes. Not only that but you also need the latest version of Safari. I don't use safari, and I dont want to update something I don't use. And if you have ilife 08, every time you open a program you are greeted by a pop up window telling you how your old software blows and how you should buy the new one.

I don't know about you, but I feel the apple I fell in love with has changed. And not for the better. they have become almost like Microsoft.... almost.

[irishgrizzly]

If you can afford 8 displays, can you not afford to trade up your machine every 3 years :confused:

[Macpropro80]

If you can afford 8 displays, can you not afford to trade up your machine every 3 years :confused:

My $4000 machine is one year old..... and apple has still abandoned it

[Pressure]

You are coming to a sad realization. Cancel or allow. (http://movies.apple.com/movies/us/apple/getamac/apple-getamac-security_480x376.mov)

You mileage may vary but I don't have any major problems with Final Cut Studio 2.5 right now.

Are you using monitors with a resolution higher than 1920 x 1200?

Nobody is forcing you to use iTunes. Music and movies can be bought elsewhere.

[ungraphic]

I'm gonna agree with Macpropro80 all the way.

I bought *two* ATI 3870s, one last year, and one this year. Seeing how the card is perfectly capable of running OpenCL, Apple has been very kind to NOT support the card with OpenCL.

I completely agree with the whole Safari thing as well, I don't use it either (i think it sucks) and shouldnt be forced to update it. Suppose I trashed it completely? What then?

Steve Jobs' has completely forgotten about Mac Pros and OS X. His attention has shifted to iPods and iPhones, and everything to do with them (itunes music store and the app store). OS X Snow Leopard has gotten some nice updates, but its still lacking some much needed options.

Ive been a mac user for about 9 years now and this whole ipod/iphone cult has really affected us ACTUAL mac users.

[ungraphic]

Nobody is forcing you to use iTunes. Music and movies can be bought elsewhere.

So then why is it necessary to be forced to use Safari?

[Pressure]

I'm gonna agree with Macpropro80 all the way.

I bought *two* ATI 3870s, one last year, and one this year. Seeing how the card is perfectly capable of running OpenCL, Apple has been very kind to NOT support the card with OpenCL.



To be quite honest Apple had no obligations to make sure OpenCL were running on the Radeon HD 3870 out of the gate, seeing as the card never officially were offered by Apple but by AMD.

Besides that the Radeon HD 3870 is not really suited GPGPU as the architecture had some limiting factors, which the Radeon HD 4800 series corrected.

[Pressure]

So then why is it necessary to be forced to use Safari?

It isn't. You can actually download any Mac OS X compatible browser, like Firefox (www.mozilla.com/firefox/), Opera (http://www.opera.com/download/index.dml?platform=mac), Google Chrome (http://www.google.com/chrome) or even an old version of Internet Explorer.

[Macpropro80]

To be quite honest Apple had no obligations to make sure OpenCL were running on the Radeon HD 3870 out of the gate, seeing as the card never officially were offered by Apple but by AMD.

Besides that the Radeon HD 3870 is not really suited GPGPU as the architecture had some limiting factors, which the Radeon HD 4800 series corrected.

Dont put words in my mouth! I said two ATI XT 2600 HD's THOSE CAME WITH MY MAC PRO!

[ungraphic]

It isn't. You can actually download any Mac OS X compatible browser, like Firefox (www.mozilla.com/firefox/), Opera (http://www.opera.com/download/index.dml?platform=mac), Google Chrome (http://www.google.com/chrome) or even an old version of Internet Explorer.

Those don't enable the itunes music store in iTunes.

[bearcatrp]

I will have to agree with the OP. They have been going down hill the past 2 years. And snow leopard took its cue from Vista. Totally sucks. Apple should have waited until the other apps from apple were rewritten to take advantage of the new OS. But like any business, they concentrate were the bacon is. Portable computers, cloud computing, and entertainment. Its sad apple lost there vision. Now they are on par with microsoft!

[thermodynamic]

My $4000 machine is one year old..... and apple has still abandoned it

Because it's a G5?

[Macpropro80]

I will have to agree with the OP. They have been going down hill the past 2 years. And snow leopard took its cue from Vista. Totally sucks. Apple should have waited until the other apps from apple were rewritten to take advantage of the new OS. But like any business, they concentrate were the bacon is. Portable computers, cloud computing, and entertainment. Its sad apple lost there vision. Now they are on par with microsoft!

I feel that apple has lost its "start up" style, it is now more interested in making a quick buck, then improving the computer experience for the masses. (the principle it was founded on) I hope Steve Jobs or Woz reads this, so they can know..... things have changed.

[thermodynamic]

I will have to agree with the OP. They have been going down hill the past 2 years. And snow leopard took its cue from Vista. Totally sucks. Apple should have waited until the other apps from apple were rewritten to take advantage of the new OS. But like any business, they concentrate were the bacon is. Portable computers, cloud computing, and entertainment. Its sad apple lost there vision. Now they are on par with microsoft!

How would Apple otherwise convince developers to make use of OpenCL and GCD without finalizing and getting it out the door first?


I don't see how Snow Leopard took any cues from Vista; I used vista since day 1 and the only words I have for Vista are words that rhyme with "Vista"'s first syllable... :eek:

[Macpropro80]

Because it's a G5?

ITS An 8 CORE MAC PRO! 2008 Edition

[synth3tik]

I have an '06 Mac Pro. Now I do have issues from time to time. I had some bad hard drive failures before, but not using drive bays 2&3 eliminates the issue. It sounds like a lot of the issues are software related. I am running 10.5. I will most likely not update to snow leopard until at least 10.6.3. I need a couple updates before I feel safe updating. Like you I do not use Safari. Now I as a little pissed when I installed 9 and was told I needed to upgrade Safari. Now, I would not have to USE it just install it. I still did not want to do that, so I downgraded to iTunes 8.

Just with what open CL is and what it does you can assume that not all video cards are going to work. With the power behind the Mac Pro it should be expected to pay over $400 for a video card that does open CL.

[bearcatrp]

How would Apple otherwise convince developers to make use of OpenCL and GCD without finalizing and getting it out the door first?


I don't see how Snow Leopard took any cues from Vista; I used vista since day 1 and the only words I have for Vista are words that rhyme with "Vista"'s first syllable... :eek:

By giving them a copy of snow leopard before selling it. Heck, they could have used the beta to get going. Yeah, vista does suck but look how they rolled that out. Apple did the same thing with SL with no apps ready for it. And look what apple did with quicktime. What a joke. If they would have came out with a pro version right away, there wouldn't have been so many complaints about quicktime.
Microsoft learned from vista and looks like they did win7 right. Runs pretty dam good. But its no OS X. Looks like we will have to wait until OS X 7 before things get better (I hope). Until then, my copy of SL will remain dormant on a disk until update 5 or so comes out. I'll stay with leopard for now.

[Pressure]

Dont put words in my mouth! I said two ATI XT 2600 HD's THOSE CAME WITH MY MAC PRO!

It was a response to ungraphic (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=8592485&postcount=5). Not you.

So you never got around telling whether or not you are using monitors with an resolution higher than 1920 x 1200 pixels.

[J&JPolangin]

...if companies don't stay profitable they can't re-innovate and progress = blame it on the stock holders...

[edesignuk]

...if companies don't stay profitable they can't re-innovate and progress = blame it on the stock holders...Apple haven't had trouble with profitability for a long time. They've just followed suit of getting bigger and crappier as time goes on. It's a shame, but I suppose not entirely surprising :rolleyes: :(

[gugucom]

People have the wrong expectations if they don't recognize the change in the marketing approach that hit the Mac Pro with Nehalem and SL.

Mac Pro is a product segment which went from cash cow to cash out. Apple will squeeze as much bucks out of it for the least bit of development and it looks pretty good for them to be successfull with that strategy.

They do not need to make any serious development effort to run Gulftowns in the existing logic boards. So it is a bit of microcode which they will obviously denie to 2009 users. The over pricing will continue to reduce the numbers of sales but keep the margins up.

When they are faced with a decision to kick off a new development for Sandy Bridge to launch in 2011 they will simply add up the cost for that development against the deminishing return. If it looks unfavourable they may pull the plug on Mac Pro in mid 2010. If it looks tolerable we may get one more tick/tock out of the Mac Pro. I would not bet the farm on it.

[sanPietro98]

...if companies don't stay profitable they can't re-innovate and progress = blame it on the stock holders...

And if they don't stay profitable, they go bankrupt from the first business hiccup. Then we'd all be stuck with Microsoft OSs.

I like knowing that Apple is fiscally stable. It gives me confidence that they'll be around to continue supporting Macs.

[Pressure]

People have the wrong expectations if they don't recognize the change in the marketing approach that hit the Mac Pro with Nehalem and SL.

Mac Pro is a product segment which went from cash cow to cash out. Apple will squeeze as much bucks out of it for the least bit of development and it looks pretty good for them to be successfull with that strategy.

They do not need to make any serious development effort to run Gulftowns in the existing logic boards. So it is a bit of microcode which they will obviously denie to 2009 users. The over pricing will continue to reduce the numbers of sales but keep the margins up.

When they are faced with a decision to kick off a new development for Sandy Bridge to launch in 2011 they will simply add up the cost for that development against the deminishing return. If it looks unfavourable they may pull the plug on Mac Pro in mid 2010. If it looks tolerable we may get one more tick/tock out of the Mac Pro. I would not bet the farm on it.

What a good laugh.

Really.

Now, having regained full control of my senses you have to understand who really uses the Mac Pro. Professional people in many segments of audio and visual fields use these machines for their brute force and good value. Yes, good value on the high-end.

[bearcatrp]

Apple haven't had trouble with profitability for a long time. They've just followed suit of getting bigger and crappier as time goes on. It's a shame, but I suppose not entirely surprising :rolleyes: :(

So true! I think that cloud computing will redefine computing. Won't need a super computer to do the tasks. Mostly handhelds and small laptops. As stated earlier, the mac pro's will be targeted to the professionals who can afford them. Looks like I may consider a hackintosh as I can build a similar mac pro for almost half the price. Not cheap parts either. :rolleyes:

[TheStrudel]

This is a whine thread. Started by a usual suspect, I might add. This issue has been discussed to death. There's still plenty of profit in the Mac Pro and there will be for some time. We're fine. Just because your 3 year old machine isn't the cat's meow doesn't mean it's going nowhere.

I don't think serious graphic, photo, or A/V professionals are having trouble with their Mac Pros. I'm not.

Lots of people who use this machine use it at work, too. Don't forget that a lot of the people buying it are companies, not individuals.

Yes, people who bought the 2006 Mac Pro got burned a little. The 2009 Mac Pro is expensive. It happens. The rest of us are doing fine, if disappointed with the pace of software upgrades. But software development always falls behind the pace of hardware development.

[goMac]

3) Apple has recently enacted on a plan to screw customers with macs older then 3 or 4 years old. My 1 year old mac pro, again a $4000 mac, did not support open CL in Snow Leopard. The only graphic cards I can get to support open CL, cost over $400 a piece, and I cant run 8 displays with them. (I bought the mac pro with the intent to one day run 8 displays) I mean come on! I decided to wing it with the Gt120, and it gives me mouse errors ALL THE TIME. * mouse jump

ATI writes the 2600 drivers. Apple has nothing to do with them not supporting OpenCL. That's completely ATI's issue. That's assuming ATI made the hardware OpenCL compatible. Regardless, it's not Apple's issue.

You run eight 30" displays and you're using iMovie? WTF?

Edit: Also, I have a 2008 and a 2009 Mac Pro each with a 120 GT and they have no issues.

[aibo]

As someone who bought a 2008 Mac Pro almost 1 year and 10 months ago, I'm actually very happy with the way it stacks up against Apple's newest, more expensive machines.

Apple's always been overpriced for video cards, RAM, hard drives as far back as I can remember. I don't see why you think they've somehow lost their roots. When in Apple's history did they ever offer upgrades at reasonable prices? Nothing new here.

[zmttoxics]

For those confused about why the 2xxx and 3xxx ATI cards don't support OpenCL, its a hardware issue. The GPUs simply do not support it.

[TheStrudel]

He made ill-informed upgrading decisions and is not using the software his computer's designed for. It's his problem.

[Pressure]

As someone who bought a 2008 Mac Pro almost 1 year and 10 months ago, I'm actually very happy with the way it stacks up against Apple's newest, more expensive machines.

Apple's always been overpriced for video cards, RAM, hard drives as far back as I can remember. I don't see why you think they've somehow lost their roots. When in Apple's history did they ever offer upgrades at reasonable prices? Nothing new here.

Well, the current Apple computers are a bargain compared to what they used to cost. Not too long ago I remember we paid over $10,000 for an Apple computer with less upgrade opportunities and more hassle than we do now ;)

The Mac Pro is serious business, although many hobbyist are buying them.

We bought both the 2006 and 2008 Mac Pro at work and the 2006 models are still going strong for our line of work. The PowerMac G5 though, let's just say they haven't aged with grace.

At home I also have an 2008 Mac Pro which still is a great machine.

[Consultant]

1) Third party adapters are available.

2) That's not normal for most users. Sounds like something is messed up on your end.

3) Releasing new technology doesn't screw any existing customers.

If you bought bottom of the line graphics card with a high end machine, that's your own problem.

4) Nope, you can keep using the same version.

If you want new features, then get new version. New software versions comes with new features!? Stop the press.

[supercooled]

I'm not a long time veteran in the Mac computer, but what I've seen in the past two years since I started using a Mac has been anything but impressive. It sure does not meet the lore of its former self.

The joys you long time Mac users enjoyed were before iPods, iPhones iTunes Music Store and a plethora of other ventures they've engaged in. This all takes man power and triaging of resources. One would be surprised at how much effort is needed to make the iPhone/ITMS work in harmony. Like with software, the bigger it gets, the harder it is to keep it lean and efficient. Apple has a lot to contend with these days so missteps in the form of sacrifices are are bound to happen.

[nanofrog]

People have the wrong expectations if they don't recognize the change in the marketing approach that hit the Mac Pro with Nehalem and SL.

Mac Pro is a product segment which went from cash cow to cash out. Apple will squeeze as much bucks out of it for the least bit of development and it looks pretty good for them to be successful with that strategy.

They do not need to make any serious development effort to run Gulftowns in the existing logic boards. So it is a bit of microcode which they will obviously deny to 2009 users. The over pricing will continue to reduce the numbers of sales but keep the margins up.

When they are faced with a decision to kick off a new development for Sandy Bridge to launch in 2011 they will simply add up the cost for that development against the diminishing return. If it looks unfavourable they may pull the plug on Mac Pro in mid 2010. If it looks tolerable we may get one more tick/tock out of the Mac Pro. I would not bet the farm on it.
I'm not sure on the date of when it would happen, but it does seem like this is the direction it's going.

...you have to understand who really uses the Mac Pro. Professional people in many segments of audio and visual fields use these machines for their brute force and good value. Yes, good value on the high-end.
I understand your point, but what you might want to keep in mind, this group comprises a very small market compared to the other lines Apple makes. So the overall profits are tiny in comparison (the portable market for example).

So to keep the profits on par, the margins have to be increased, thereby increasing the MSRP of the systems. Otherwise, when it's figured into the overall margin of the company, it appears to decrease, even though the segment was profitable, and added to the total profit margin of all products. It looks bad on paper as I understand it (i.e. to stock holders).

Eventually, the "value" will disappear, even for the professional market. It's already there for students (seemingly the biggest portion of "hobbyists" you mention, but has a bearing on future sales & the education market Apple's claimed to value so often), and even for small production houses/independent professionals. If it's not there for the latter, it soon will be, and the large houses will eventually follow, as there's even fewer systems sold (increased R&D per unit + profit margin gets added to figure the MSRP). It still has to balance out to be profitable for any user, no matter how big.

There's still plenty of profit in the Mac Pro and there will be for some time. We're fine
For now. But it doesn't appear this will continue to be the case as the market continues to shrink, as the increased prices are running off current users. Fewer people to spread the costs over, as there will be fewer units sold.

It comes down to economy of scale going in reverse.

Yes, people who bought the 2006 Mac Pro got burned a little. The 2009 Mac Pro is expensive. It happens. The rest of us are doing fine, if disappointed with the pace of software upgrades. But software development always falls behind the pace of hardware development.[/QUOTE]
Keep in mind, if Apple's willing to do that to a 3y/o machine, what makes you think they won't do it again?

I wouldn't take it as an anomaly/outlier case. Their profits are based on system sales, so they have to push them on the current line. Even if it means forcing incompatibilities/lack of upgrades to do it.

As someone who bought a 2008 Mac Pro almost 1 year and 10 months ago, I'm actually very happy with the way it stacks up against Apple's newest, more expensive machines.
The '08's are the best band-for-the-money Apple has released, given the current direction (both pricing and upgradeability; no adapters needed for hardware RAID, and the firmware is 64 bit).

Yes, Apple's always been high for things like memory, drives,... But that's a little different than the MDP used in the current graphics cards. Now if a second monitor is needed (same card), you have to get the adapter to do it. It's a little different, as buying the memory,... was a convenience in BTO systems. The adapter is a necessity for those wanting to run a second monitor on the Apple supplied cards.

Well, the current Apple computers are a bargain compared to what they used to cost. Not too long ago I remember we paid over $10,000 for an Apple computer with less upgrade opportunities and more hassle than we do now ;)
The '06 - 08's certainly were. But the '09's and on, not so much. I can't help but look at the current trend, and seeing them get back to $10kUSD again in the near future. Yes, Intel's high end parts are getting more expensive, but the systems are loosing their value due to the increased margins.

It can't sustain that for long. Either the prices will have to come back down, or the line cut. Given the fact it's a shrinking market, the latter seems more probable.

We bought both the 2006 Mac Pro at work and the 2006 models are still going strong for our line of work.
Perhaps not for much longer though. They're already becoming difficult for future graphics cards, and soon will be once OS X gets to Kernel 64 only. Granted, for a corporation, that's easier to figure in. Not so much for small/independents.

The joys you long time Mac users enjoyed were before iPods, iPhones iTunes Music Store and a plethora of other ventures they've engaged in. This all takes man power and triaging of resources. One would be surprised at how much effort is needed to make the iPhone/ITMS work in harmony. Like with software, the bigger it gets, the harder it is to keep it lean and efficient. Apple has a lot to contend with these days so missteps in the form of sacrifices are are bound to happen.
Very true. But it also has to do with the lack of resources, such as not hiring the extra people needed to help with the growth.

Eventually, such compromises are made, and the overall product quality will suffer. It really is that simple. :(

[skye12]

I think Apple is very reasonable, for the most part, in it's support policies.

[TheStrudel]

I don't know about the 2009 Mac Pro, but Mac Pro sales did hit an uptick in 2008 (arguably due to pent-up demand from a lack of updates, but still).

The video card thing is an issue, I'd agree. On the other hand, only recently has the software become available to make it an issue.

I also don't think  intends to give up performance computing completely, which the recent Mac Pros, though expensive, do fairly well at.

It's a safe place for them to market test newer technologies as well - such as MDP - and see how they catch on.

With regards to MDP, all evidence is that it is, in fact, catching on, as shown with the Radeon 5870 Eyefinity edition. And I think that graphics card will prompt more MDP monitors; Displayport itself has caught on slowly and is now routinely available on newer monitors.

I see all the concerns, but I don't think it's a done deal. We'll all know in a few years, though. Far too soon to exclaim that the sky is falling.

[Macpropro80]

This is a whine thread. Started by a usual suspect, I might add. This issue has been discussed to death. There's still plenty of profit in the Mac Pro and there will be for some time. We're fine. Just because your 3 year old machine isn't the cat's meow doesn't mean it's going nowhere.

I don't think serious graphic, photo, or A/V professionals are having trouble with their Mac Pros. I'm not.

Lots of people who use this machine use it at work, too. Don't forget that a lot of the people buying it are companies, not individuals.

Yes, people who bought the 2006 Mac Pro got burned a little. The 2009 Mac Pro is expensive. It happens. The rest of us are doing fine, if disappointed with the pace of software upgrades. But software development always falls behind the pace of hardware development.


Im a professional video editor... and Im having graphic problems with my mac pro using final cut.

[Techhie]

Eventually, the "value" will disappear, even for the professional market. It's already there for students (seemingly the biggest portion of "hobbyists" you mention, but has a bearing on future sales & the education market Apple's claimed to value so often), and even for small production houses/independent professionals. If it's not there for the latter, it soon will be, and the large houses will eventually follow, as there's even fewer systems sold (increased R&D per unit + profit margin gets added to figure the MSRP). It still has to balance out to be profitable for any user, no matter how big.




I believe that the initial value of the Mac Pro wen't flying out the window when the chip/system price ratio skyrocketed in the 2009 model. If you look at it compared to the 2006 Mac Pro, the MSRP they are trying to charge today is disgusting.
It's true that they are still valued for their upgradability, but Apple has shown that they would much rather you buy a new machine after two years (obviously) than support the old one. If the current trend continues, I think professionals in all fields will have no problem finding alternatives for Final Cut and Logic.

[Macpropro80]

ATI writes the 2600 drivers. Apple has nothing to do with them not supporting OpenCL. That's completely ATI's issue. That's assuming ATI made the hardware OpenCL compatible. Regardless, it's not Apple's issue.

You run eight 30" displays and you're using iMovie? WTF?

Edit: Also, I have a 2008 and a 2009 Mac Pro each with a 120 GT and they have no issues.

No, I used iMovie to import footage from my camera before Final Cut supported it. I have the 2008 mac pro 120GT and I have nothing but problems with these new cards.

[Deppe]

Apple haven't had trouble with profitability for a long time. They've just followed suit of getting bigger and crappier as time goes on. It's a shame, but I suppose not entirely surprising :rolleyes: :(

So what did you expect? That because Apple don't have had problems with profitability in a long time, the board just says "Aaarh okay, we have earned enough money now, lets do something that don't make money, to joy the consumers and then to hell with the stockholders" - I would like to see how long the board, thats makes such a decision, keeps their job!
Or what about stockholders that purchased their stock 2 months ago? They expect to make money of their stock and that can only happen if Apple makes (more) money!

A lot of people here on MR tends to only see it from the consumers point of view! Hell, as a consumer I would love to see new design with all new technology but from a stockholders point of view, then if old technology = more money then old technology it is!

[nanofrog]

I don't know about the 2009 Mac Pro, but Mac Pro sales did hit an uptick in 2008 (arguably due to pent-up demand from a lack of updates, but still).
I think you're right with the updates triggering an upswing in the '08's, but they were also a good value. It was obvious when you looked at the cost of DIY'ing a system or even from other vendors (including the "real" pricing recieved over the phone IIRC). The web pricing is always high from places like Dell, and many have learned that the phone call is worth it. ;) :p

The video card thing is an issue, I'd agree. On the other hand, only recently has the software become available to make it an issue.
The restrictions to choice has been an issue for a long time.

But I agree the GPGPU issues are recent, and further complicated by some of the details in the hardware (i.e. double precision FPU), and who actually released the cards (Apple, or independently by another vendor).

I also don't think  intends to give up performance computing completely, which the recent Mac Pros, though expensive, do fairly well at.
Not yet. But the value is disappearing due to the new pricing schedule. In the end, no matter how good the system is, the cost will win out on whether or not a person/company will continue to purchase new systems.

Software binding will help keep users locked, as the cost of switching is likely more expensive than the machine. But if the software falls in quality (or takes a big price hike), it will be the "straw that broke the Camel's back" as it were. This will be a major factor, especially for larger orginizations, as they don't buy single licenses.

It's a safe place for them to market test newer technologies as well - such as MDP - and see how they catch on.
Definitely. :D

Unfortunately, that's been slipping in the computer industry overall, as the technologies aren't developed the same way as before. For example, the "Super Computer" has slipped drastically. Take a look at Silicon Graphics for example. They've stopped developing their own RISC based systems now, and are Intel based. No innovation there. And they're not the only ones (or only industry for that matter). Simply put, the financial resources just aren't there anymore, and developers are trying to milk their existing designs longer. It slows new technology, and it's happening in both hardware and software. Complexity is part of it too.

With regards to MDP, all evidence is that it is, in fact, catching on, as shown with the Radeon 5870 Eyefinity edition. And I think that graphics card will prompt more MDP monitors; Displayport itself has caught on slowly and is now routinely available on newer monitors.
I'd wait to see that other vendors pick up on it first (MDP). One product is too early to tell, and with desktop/professional systems, it's not needed for critical space constraints (unlike portable/laptop systems).

As you say, the DP has been slow to catch on, and everyone seems to be waiting on someone else to lead (card vs. monitor). It reminds me of the Chicken and the Egg bit. :D But in terms of practicality for desktop systems, the DP makes more sense, as there's already greater support, and they don't suffer the PCB real estate issues that laptops do if it's a good board design (it's a concern, but not as critical as laptops). More can be done with fewer parts now, and DP uses fewer traces than DVI (20pin vs. 29 pin <max = DVI-A>, not including shield). And it is a smaller connector (could allow for addtional features, such as 2x DP + HDMI for example).

I see all the concerns, but I don't think it's a done deal. We'll all know in a few years, though. Far too soon to exclaim that the sky is falling.
Maybe, but the more recent trends aren't boding well. As you say, ultimately, we'll have to wait and see. ;)

But I'm not holding my breath for a miracle either. :eek: :p

[Pressure]

The '06 - 08's certainly were. But the '09's and on, not so much. I can't help but look at the current trend, and seeing them get back to $10kUSD again in the near future. Yes, Intel's high end parts are getting more expensive, but the systems are loosing their value due to the increased margins.

It can't sustain that for long. Either the prices will have to come back down, or the line cut. Given the fact it's a shrinking market, the latter seems more probable.

Can't say I fully agree. Just try and configure an 8-core Xeon computer from Dell (or other PC equivalent) and the Apple Mac Pro is still an excellent value.

The real problem though is the margins Intel is getting used to get on their high-end Xeon parts.

[nanofrog]

I believe that the initial value of the Mac Pro wen't flying out the window when the chip/system price ratio skyrocketed in the 2009 model. If you look at it compared to the 2006 Mac Pro, the MSRP they are trying to charge today is disgusting.
It's true that they are still valued for their upgradability, but Apple has shown that they would much rather you buy a new machine after two years (obviously) than support the old one. If the current trend continues, I think professionals in all fields will have no problem finding alternatives for Final Cut and Logic.
The value issue seems to be well known. My point earlier is that as the prices increase, users will be more inclined to look elsewhere for systems (if they can justify the software costs associated to switching back to the PC side). Unless they're willing to hack. That has it's own issues, but is technically possible. Even for larger design houses, so long as their IT staff is up to the task (despite their grumblings over it :p).

And then there's the possibility that the FCP and Logic will get buggy, and drive users away. That would be the end of Apple's aura over the graphics industry.

In the end, the financial side of the equation must balance out with any benefits with remaining with OS X/Apple systems.

[Techhie]

The value issue seems to be well known. My point earlier is that as the prices increase, users will be more inclined to look elsewhere for systems (if they can justify the software costs associated to switching back to the PC side). Unless they're willing to hack. That has it's own issues, but is technically possible. Even for larger design houses, so long as their IT staff is up to the task (despite their grumblings over it :p).

And then there's the possibility that the FCP and Logic will get buggy, and drive users away. That would be the end of Apple's aura over the graphics industry.

In the end, the financial side of the equation must balance out with any benefits with remaining with OS X/Apple systems.

In a world where Apple thinks it is ok to eliminate half of the RAM slots, double the price of the computer (essentially), and not support relatively new hardware, I don't think it is a stretch to think that many firms will be abandoning the Mac Pro in coming years.

[VirtualRain]

This may be a classic example Maslow's hierarchy of needs at work.

I can't argue that some of the complaints aired here and elsewhere in this forum are warranted, but you just have to think back to the last time you used a PC to feel much better about it! :eek: ;)

BTW, OP, if you download some of the latest software that Apple wants you to, you may find it resolves some of your problems. :p

In the end, though, there is no denying that Apple is a consumer products company now... they even removed the "Computer" from their name "Apple Computer" some time ago as a bold statement in this direction.

[Macpropro80]

This may be a classic example Maslow's hierarchy of needs at work.

I can't argue that some of the complaints aired here and elsewhere in this forum are warranted, but you just have to think back to the last time you used a PC to feel much better about it! :eek: ;)

BTW, OP, if you download some of the latest software that Apple wants you to, you may find it resolves some of your problems. :p

In the end, though, there is no denying that Apple is a consumer products company now... they even removed the "Computer" from their name "Apple Computer" some time ago as a bold statement in this direction.

I downloaded every update and even bought snow leopard(the family pack, because I support apple's development and $20 extra bucks cant hurt). My mac pro has been a nightmare. I admit, its fast, its really really really fast. (last night it exported 30 minutes of HD video in 3 minutes) But its problems out way its rewards. And it is no one's fault but apples. If they advertised it as a gaming machine or a high-powered consumer machine, I would not have a problem with it. But because they market it as a high-end work station, it should run like a high-end work station. I didn't over pay on every part for it because it has an apple logo, I over payed for every part because I thought it was going towards developing the product, which it clearly is not.

[nanofrog]

Can't say I fully agree. Just try and configure an 8-core Xeon computer from Dell (or other PC equivalent) and the Apple Mac Pro is still an excellent value.

The real problem though is the margins Intel is getting used to get on their high-end Xeon parts.
Actually, you can't pin this on Intel. :eek: It's on Apple. ;)

For example, the the E5462 used in the '08's was in either the base Quad or base Octad systems ($958 per at release IIRC, and currently for $792 last I looked in quantity of 1k units). They went for more than the base parts used in the '09's, and still do. Even a single E5462 is more expensive than the pair of E5520's used in the base '09 Octad at it's current quantity pricing! :eek: :D

So take Intel out of your cross-hairs on this one. :p

In a world where Apple thinks it is ok to eliminate half of the RAM slots, double the price of the computer (essentially), and not support relatively new hardware, I don't think it is a stretch to think that many firms will be abandoning the Mac Pro in coming years.
It will come down to other considerations as well though, namely their software investment. It's easier for an individual to do so compared to a corporation, as it's a single license vs. many. It makes a difference. ;)

That said, it doesn't mean they won't run the numbers and think about their future expenditures, and do it if it works out numerically (also includes training to new applications,...).

In the end, though, there is no denying that Apple is a consumer products company now... they even removed the "Computer" from their name "Apple Computer" some time ago as a bold statement in this direction.
Exactly. If that's not a massive hint, I don't know what is. :p

[TheStrudel]

Im a professional video editor... and Im having graphic problems with my mac pro using final cut.

You have never given me the impression that you were a professional video editor.

Or a particularly adept Mac user. We have several of both on this forum, and you have never once seemed like one. This causes me to label your thread as something of a whine forum.

Other people are not experiencing the same issues you are, so your problems are anecdotal at best. If you were saying something along the lines of, "Qmaster is buggy and not well-supported," we'd agree. But your problems aren't things the rest of us have witnessed.

Compared with say, nanofrog's more nuanced criticism and explanation, we can't put very much stock in your words.

FYI, it helps if you sound coherent, well informed, or at least type better English.

[VirtualRain]

I downloaded every update and even bought snow leopard(the family pack, because I support apple's development and $20 extra bucks cant hurt). My mac pro has been a nightmare. I admit, its fast, its really really really fast. (last night it exported 30 minutes of HD video in 3 minutes) But its problems out way its rewards. And it is no one's fault but apples. If they advertised it as a gaming machine or a high-powered consumer machine, I would not have a problem with it. But because they market it as a high-end work station, it should run like a high-end work station. I didn't over pay on every part for it because it has an apple logo, I over payed for every part because I thought it was going towards developing the product, which it clearly is not.

I realize I was being a smart-ass with my remark about downloading updates... hence the :p

I dunno what to say, there are plenty of examples of people using their Mac Pro's without issue. Sure, not everything works like a dream, but most things actually do for me.

[nanofrog]

Compared with say, nanofrog's more nuanced criticism and explanation, we can't put very much stock in your words.
Nuanced? :eek: Crap. I thought it was blatant. :D :p :p

Seriously though, it all comes down to an educated guess at best (vs. just mad at something and ranting without any sense of reason/support). I look at a trend and see one thing, you may see something else. But hopefully, I've done a decent enough job to try and explain it without it being too long, circular, meandering direction, or complicated. ;)

[lemonade-maker]

My Macintosh IIfx in 1989 was like $13,000. It was shot from a trebuchet catapult. The fat mac before it was like $5,000, became a fishtank. So many more that were ridiculously priced. All had issues. All computers do. Especially if the user isn't adept at problem solving.

Crying on a public forum won't help.

[Macpropro80]

Crying on a public forum won't help.

When did I ever cry about anything? I simply posted a thread with a list of problems I have with apples current policy. I would love to continue to feed your trollish ways but I feel that my time could be better spent.

[lemonade-maker]

When did I ever cry about anything? I simply posted a thread with a list of problems I have with apples current policy. I would love to continue to feed your trollish ways but I feel that my time could be better spent.

With all the problems you mention (cry about), better use of your time is a decent idea.

http://www.flayme.com/troll/

[Techhie]

FYI, it helps if you sound coherent, well informed, or at least type better English.

FYI, it helps if you don't sound like a condescending ******* to the OP when you reply. Not to be rude, but he has some genuine arguments, and so does everyone else in this thread.

[UltraNEO*]

My $4000 machine is one year old..... and apple has still abandoned it

Yeah? What about folks who spend $100K on a car only to have the model replace a year later? Isn't that kinda the same thing? Technology my friend, doesn't stop developing when you buy the latest meanest beast, something better will always appear sooner or later - just life!! I think so long as your machine continue to do it's job for the next five years, be happy and enjoy it!!

Apple doesn't abandon machines as such, they keep a small inventory of parts for about five years; usually by then, most users would have upgrade to something cooler (so to speak).

[Gomff]

I wonder whether some of the issues with value and performance mentioned here relate to Intel's current spell of dominance in the CPU market. It seems that since AMD have been struggling to keep up, Intel has taken advantage and hiked it's prices.

Perhaps what we need to invigorate the workstation market is some good old competition again. I wonder if a resurgence by AMD would have any sideways knock on effect with the cost of Mac Pro's....The thinking being that (1) Intel would have to be more competitive with their pricing and (2) Apple might start looking over their shoulder a bit more at cheaper, more powerful or much better value Windows based systems becoming available.

Then there's the Hackintosh community. How would Apple react to Hackintoshes completely outperforming their best Mac model (presumably an iMac if there were no Mac Pros about).

Gamers and 3D graphics artists, as well as Pro Video people will always keep pushing for more powerful workstations. With all the work Apple has done to lure Windows users over, it would seem like a backward step to decide that power users who need more than an iMac aren't worth bothering with anymore.

A buddy of mine who used to be a real mac fanatic but abandoned them for Linux a few years ago said "Apple used to be the rebel alliance but they're not anymore". Having said that, Apple also used to be absolutely pants at marketing and in denial about the instability of their operating system which more often than not used to take the whole system down when an application crashed (I'm talking system 9 and before).

[TonyK]

How much memory do you have in your system? What about scratch discs for your rendering?

No, I used iMovie to import footage from my camera before Final Cut supported it. I have the 2008 mac pro 120GT and I have nothing but problems with these new cards.

[nanofrog]

Yeah? What about folks who spend $100K on a car only to have the model replace a year later? Isn't that kinda the same thing? Technology my friend, doesn't stop developing when you buy the latest meanest beast, something better will always appear sooner or later - just life!! I think so long as your machine continue to do it's job for the next five years, be happy and enjoy it!!

Apple doesn't abandon machines as such, they keep a small inventory of parts for about five years; usually by then, most users would have upgrade to something cooler (so to speak).
It's not all about hardware though. ;) EFI is technically software stored on a Flash ROM. It's easy enough to upgrade (the entire point of placing it on such a chip in the first place), but Apple won't upgrade it for a 3y/o machine.

It's what's intentional or not. In the case of the '06 - '07 owners, the lack of firmware support is intentional. Pricing of the '09's is intentional, and the lack of DIMM slots is arguable at best. :p

Software... It's usually a mess, no matter who wrote it. :eek: :D :p

[TonyK]

I am sure to be stepping into a big mess, but what the heck...

Over the last year or so, I have been feeling as though apple has forgotten its roots. I am not going to stop using macs, because they are still better then any PC, but I would like to state my complaints in a public and open forum.)

My Problems with Apple INC. (mostly in regards to their Mac Pro and Mac Book Pro Line)

1) Apple has begun to nickel and dime the customer. I recently bought two Nvidia GT120's for my mac pro, neither came with any form of an adapter to use the display ports. These are $150 a piece graphic cards, and yet still, apple made me buy two $100 dual link DVI adapters! My old ati 2600 HD's came with two dual link DVI ports and a DVI to VGA adapter, for $130 a piece.

My system is using the original ATI Radeon HD 2600. Well not original. The original passed-on under warranty and they replaced it. Same model card though. Then again, I do digital photography, not video so graphics speed is not important to me.

2) Apple has begun to ignore major software problems. Over the past year I have had more software glitches on my mac pro, then any other computer I have EVER used. iMovie doesn't show all my clips, iPhoto wont export my slideshow, final cut wont render, the list goes on. When ever I call apple care, Which by the way cost me $250 on top of a $4000 machine, they tell me that they do not have a solution and to wait for the next software update. I have an idea apple, Il stop payment on my mac pro next time, and tell you to wait for my new job.

Correct me, but iMovie is not really up-to-speed for commercial, professional editing. That is like using iPhoto for a professional photographer. Sure it is free and comes with the Mac, but I would not want to do weddings, commercial gigs or serious fine art with iPhoto. The one piece of software I see in the list of professional caliber is Final Cut.

3) Apple has recently enacted on a plan to screw customers with macs older then 3 or 4 years old. My 1 year old mac pro, again a $4000 mac, did not support open CL in Snow Leopard. The only graphic cards I can get to support open CL, cost over $400 a piece, and I cant run 8 displays with them. (I bought the mac pro with the intent to one day run 8 displays) I mean come on! I decided to wing it with the Gt120, and it gives me mouse errors ALL THE TIME. * mouse jump

Ya, I saw that and opted to not upgrade the graphics card and so far have resisted SL. If it is not broke, and the OS for me is not, don't try to fix it. In your situation, it is now broke, we need to fix it. This can be painful though.

4) Forcing users to download new software. Example; Itunes. If you want to use the itunes store you need to latest version of itunes. Not only that but you also need the latest version of Safari. I don't use safari, and I dont want to update something I don't use. And if you have ilife 08, every time you open a program you are greeted by a pop up window telling you how your old software blows and how you should buy the new one.

Yup, that gets annoying until one realizes they are closing security holes. We may not use X from the original install, but it is still there and is a security risk if left unpatched. Thus Apple is doing what they can to maintain a safe computing environment. And unlike the hype, all computers can be compromised. Its just that MS has a bigger target still on their backs. :D

Now to your problems.

Have you repaired your permissions?
Deleted your caches?
Backed up your data and do a fresh install on a newly formatted drive, and then only install/restore what you really needed?

Each of this is in order of severity. Permissions and cache should be at the to of the list of things to do. Re-installing the OS X is more of a pain and is a last resort measure.

If you have, please report back.

Take care,

[nanofrog]

I wonder whether some of the issues with value and performance mentioned here relate to Intel's current spell of dominance in the CPU market. It seems that since AMD have been struggling to keep up, Intel has taken advantage and hiked it's prices.
It certainly wouldn't hurt.

And it might keep Intel from sitting on their laurels with the performance too once the current roadmap runs out. I can't help but remember the same situation when the P4 debuted...ugh...). It wasn't a good thing, and it's possible history could repeat itself. :eek: :(

(2) Apple might start looking over their shoulder a bit more at cheaper, more powerful or much better value Windows based systems becoming available.
They might watch this and respond with something in the laptop or desktop systems, but I don't see it happening much with the MP's. Completely different market.

Then there's the Hackintosh community. How would Apple react to Hackintoshes completely outperforming their best Mac model (presumably an iMac if there were no Mac Pros about).
Somehow, I don't think this matters to Apple at all. If hackintoshes were such a threat, they'd have made an effort to block it for individual users.

With all the work Apple has done to lure Windows users over, it would seem like a backward step to decide that power users who need more than an iMac aren't worth bothering with anymore.
It would seem logical, but if the market gets too small, they won't be able to maintain a presence in it. The costs would get too high, and Apple's clearly admitted they want high margins, not loss leader products. :eek: :p

[Macpropro80]

How much memory do you have in your system? What about scratch discs for your rendering?

I have 4 gigs of ram, remember this is a 2008 mac pro, and ram is SO expensive. I have three 1 TB internal drives for scratch, and one external raid 0 for when i edit uncompressed.

and to the guy who said

Yeah? What about folks who spend $100K on a car only to have the model replace a year later?

No, its more like having a 100K car and being told that the air filter or the rims are not compatible and the only way to get compatibility is to buy a new car.

[lemonade-maker]

No, its more like having a 100K car and being told that the air filter or the rims are not compatible and the only way to get compatibility is to buy a new car.

No its like buying a Ford f150 and asking Ford to teach you to drive it.

[iCheddar]

Trolling is a art.

I see no Picassos here.

[goMac]

Also the OP should read this:
http://macfidelity.de/2008/07/09/how-to-tell-mac-os-x-software-update-to-ignore-something/

You can control which products Apple bothers you to update.

I will note, however, that the OP is mistaken if he thinks this is "the new Apple". Apple has pushed software updates in this manner since OS 9, in 1999.

[lemonade-maker]

Trolling is a art.

I see no Picassos here.

There are a few Chagalls though.

[reactions]

Over the last year or so, I have been feeling as though apple has forgotten its roots. I am not going to stop using macs, because they are still better then any PC, but I would like to state my complaints in a public and open forum.

My Problems with Apple INC. (mostly in regards to their Mac Pro and Mac Book Pro Line)

1) Apple has begun to nickel and dime the customer. I recently bought two Nvidia GT120's for my mac pro, neither came with any form of an adapter to use the display ports. These are $150 a piece graphic cards, and yet still, apple made me buy two $100 dual link DVI adapters! My old ati 2600 HD's came with two dual link DVI ports and a DVI to VGA adapter, for $130 a piece.

2) Apple has begun to ignore major software problems. Over the past year I have had more software glitches on my mac pro, then any other computer I have EVER used. iMovie doesn't show all my clips, iPhoto wont export my slideshow, final cut wont render, the list goes on. When ever I call apple care, Which by the way cost me $250 on top of a $4000 machine, they tell me that they do not have a solution and to wait for the next software update. I have an idea apple, Il stop payment on my mac pro next time, and tell you to wait for my new job.

3) Apple has recently enacted on a plan to screw customers with macs older then 3 or 4 years old. My 1 year old mac pro, again a $4000 mac, did not support open CL in Snow Leopard. The only graphic cards I can get to support open CL, cost over $400 a piece, and I cant run 8 displays with them. (I bought the mac pro with the intent to one day run 8 displays) I mean come on! I decided to wing it with the Gt120, and it gives me mouse errors ALL THE TIME. * mouse jump

4) Forcing users to download new software. Example; Itunes. If you want to use the itunes store you need to latest version of itunes. Not only that but you also need the latest version of Safari. I don't use safari, and I dont want to update something I don't use. And if you have ilife 08, every time you open a program you are greeted by a pop up window telling you how your old software blows and how you should buy the new one.

I don't know about you, but I feel the apple I fell in love with has changed. And not for the better. they have become almost like Microsoft.... almost.

dude - get a PC

Trolling is a art.

I see no Picassos here.

i feel hurt by this statement

so if we don't join you then we're against you?

don't non fanboys have the right to decide what's good and bad for us?

[300D]

apple made me buy two $100 dual link DVI adapters! My old ati 2600 HD's came with two dual link DVI ports and a DVI to VGA adapter, for $130 a piece.
DVI has VGA integrated into it, its a dirt cheap pin-to-pin adapter.
DP to dual link DVI requires conversion electronics in the adapter, thats why it requires a USB port to supply power.

3) Apple has recently enacted on a plan to screw customers with macs older then 3 or 4 years old. My 1 year old mac pro, again a $4000 mac, did not support open CL in Snow Leopard.
Thats because when your Mac was made, OpenCL didn't exist so compatible hardware didn't exist to support it.


I decided to wing it with the Gt120, and it gives me mouse errors ALL THE TIME. * mouse jump
Very common problem, and its the dual link DVI adapter's fault.

4) Forcing users to download new software. Example; Itunes. If you want to use the itunes store you need to latest version of itunes. Not only that but you also need the latest version of Safari.
Um, no, you don't. If software you don't want pops up in the update list, delete it from the list. I do it all the time with iPhoto and Safari updates.

So then why is it necessary to be forced to use Safari?
What and when is "forcing" you to use safari? The last time I opened a safari window was 3 years ago.

Download Firefox and set it as the default browser.

[Tesselator]

Over the last year or so, I have been feeling as though apple has forgotten its roots. I am not going to stop using macs, because they are still better then any PC, but I would like to state my complaints in a public and open forum.

My Problems with Apple INC. (mostly in regards to their Mac Pro and Mac Book Pro Line)

Mac Pros (the forum you are in now) are not "better than any PC". In fact if you consider the class they're in they're a lot lower than most. This isn't my opinion, this is a qualifiable and quantifiable fact. The 2009 MPs are also massively overpriced for what you get. I'm not trying to sell you on anything but a spade is a spade so let's use correct terms and proper ratings. The OS is subjective tho and I think OS X is far better than anything MicroSloth offers.


If I were to rate the function and feature set of Apple hardware compared with all hardware in a similar general class (mac pro) on a scale of 1 to 10 the MP would score about a 5 or 6.


If I were to rate the function and feature set of Apple hardware compared with all hardware in a any class (mac pro vs. "any PC") on a scale of 1 to 10 the MP would score about a 3.


If I were to rate the function and feature set of Apple hardware compared with all hardware in a similar general class (mac pro) with price performance in mind on a scale of 1 to 10 the MP would score about a 3 for the 2009 and about 7 for the 06 ~ 08 models.

Notice none of these are "better than any PC" and only the 06 ~ 08 Mac rate "good" at anything and that's only at price/performance.

MBP is a whole 'nother discussion but fairly similar. Generally speaking the MBP (all models) is scaled down and overpriced with a great operating system.


1) Apple has begun to nickel and dime the customer. I recently bought two Nvidia GT120's for my mac pro, neither came with any form of an adapter to use the display ports. These are $150 a piece graphic cards, and yet still, apple made me buy two $100 dual link DVI adapters! My old ati 2600 HD's came with two dual link DVI ports and a DVI to VGA adapter, for $130 a piece.

Apple has always done this. RAM, HDDs, Cables, manuals, you name it... if it's "extra" Apple charges for it and charges more than anyone else too! This has been true for 20 years straight through.


2) Apple has begun to ignore major software problems. Over the past year I have had more software glitches on my mac pro, then any other computer I have EVER used. iMovie doesn't show all my clips, iPhoto wont export my slideshow, final cut wont render, the list goes on. When ever I call apple care, Which by the way cost me $250 on top of a $4000 machine, they tell me that they do not have a solution and to wait for the next software update. I have an idea apple, Il stop payment on my mac pro next time, and tell you to wait for my new job.

I never have such issues. The issues I read about here and on the Apple forums over the past 4 years are far less severe and inclusive (wide spread) than what I read about for Windoze users. So again, "began to" is wrong IMHO. It's about the same as it's always been and less than most other PC VARs.


3) Apple has recently enacted on a plan to screw customers with macs older then 3 or 4 years old. My 1 year old mac pro, again a $4000 mac, did not support open CL in Snow Leopard. The only graphic cards I can get to support open CL, cost over $400 a piece, and I cant run 8 displays with them. (I bought the mac pro with the intent to one day run 8 displays) I mean come on! I decided to wing it with the Gt120, and it gives me mouse errors ALL THE TIME. * mouse jump

Again, this has been the case for the past 20 years. Nothing has changed and it's been a constant user complaint. Apple never uses mainstream bus types and when they do they have to proprieties it so that almost no off-the-shelf parts work. EFI is a good example for the PCIe stuff. Mouse pointer jerking and jumping has been a problem on all Mac Pro models so far. I had it on the Mac Pro 1,1 and I bet if I search I can find people with that problem back on the 1st PPC machines as well. In fact I bet I can find it back on the 68K macs too. ;)


4) Forcing users to download new software. Example; Itunes. If you want to use the itunes store you need to latest version of itunes. Not only that but you also need the latest version of Safari. I don't use safari, and I dont want to update something I don't use. And if you have ilife 08, every time you open a program you are greeted by a pop up window telling you how your old software blows and how you should buy the new one.

Again this is the same since the very 1st Macintosh - the little B&W classic. There are more apps and each is more elaborate so the frequency of such systemic prerequisites may have increased but it's been a steady and relational increase. Nothing new here.


I don't know about you, but I feel the apple I fell in love with has changed. And not for the better. they have become almost like Microsoft.... almost.

I think your usage profile changed in such a way that it's become more obvious to you. But it's actually always been this way.


.

[lemonade-maker]

Mac Pros (the forum you are in now) are not "better than any PC". In fact if you consider the class they're in they're a lot lower than most. This isn't my opinion, this is a qualifiable and quantifiable fact. The 2009 MPs are also massively overpriced for what you get.
.

Pure conjecture. Each of your "facts" can be opposed by opposite "facts" making your statement opinion based.

[TennisandMusic]

Pure conjecture. Each of your "facts" can be opposed by opposite "facts" making your statement opinion based.

Why don't you give it a shot.

[TonyK]

I too have an early 2008 MP and it has 12GB of ram. OWC sells ram for a good price. do no hesitate to upgrade your memory. Only have 500GB drives in this system for a total of 1.8TB of storage. Don't do RAID for myself, but do weekly backups. :)

I have 4 gigs of ram, remember this is a 2008 mac pro, and ram is SO expensive. I have three 1 TB internal drives for scratch, and one external raid 0 for when i edit uncompressed.

and to the guy who said



No, its more like having a 100K car and being told that the air filter or the rims are not compatible and the only way to get compatibility is to buy a new car.

[Stephen23]

I have 4 gigs of ram, remember this is a 2008 mac pro, and ram is SO expensive. I have three 1 TB internal drives for scratch, and one external raid 0 for when i edit uncompressed.



Memory is dirt cheap compared to the cost of the computer, even though its starting to edge up right now. The fact that you're running an external RAID, yet haven't seen fit to add more then 4GB of RAM to your system, and chose to upgrade to the GT 120 rather than a better card tells me that you need to rethink how you spend your money on hardware if you want a pro machine.

Furthermore, most of us who have been using Macs, or any computers, for work, understand that jumping into the latest software updates often involves issues. If you're not prepared to figure out those issues, or there doesn't exist a technical fix to allow you to keep using your computer the way you use it under the update, then don't do the update. Period. My printer isn't yet supported by Snow Leopard, for that reason, I'll stick with Leopard until it is. No problem...

[Stephen23]

No, its more like having a 100K car and being told that the air filter or the rims are not compatible and the only way to get compatibility is to buy a new car.

This supposes that your car isn't working perfectly well with the rims and air filter you've got. It sounds like yours was, but you wanted to have those shiny new rims that keep spinning even while you're stopped at the traffic light. :rolleyes:

[daneoni]

ATI writes the 2600 drivers. Apple has nothing to do with them not supporting OpenCL. That's completely ATI's issue. That's assuming ATI made the hardware OpenCL compatible. Regardless, it's not Apple's issue.

You run eight 30" displays and you're using iMovie? WTF?

Edit: Also, I have a 2008 and a 2009 Mac Pro each with a 120 GT and they have no issues.

er...last i checked Apple wrote all gpx drivers

[goMac]

er...last i checked Apple wrote all gpx drivers

They don't. I knew people at ATI on the ATI Mac driver team. Remember, ATI was shipping Mac GPU's before Apple even included them with machines. In fact, you can download the latest Mac drivers from ATI here, although ATI only manages driver updates for retail cards:

http://support.amd.com/us/gpudownload/Pages/index.aspx

(Note: it looks like they've been co-ordinating with Apple since 10.5, but for 10.4 they still have all their driver downloads up, and they're still definitely writing them in house.)

Apple wouldn't be writing drivers like the 3870 drivers anyway for any reason because Apple doesn't sell any machines with the 3870.

The NVidia drivers, last I checked, were written at Apple. But that could have changed. It looks like NVidia might handle their own drivers too, they seem to manage their own for the GTX 285.

[nufanec]

Ok, while agree, Apple has things it needs to work on, things are not as bad as you make it seem, and several points you make are just wrong.


1) Apple has begun to nickel and dime the customer. I recently bought two Nvidia GT120's for my mac pro, neither came with any form of an adapter to use the display ports. These are $150 a piece graphic cards, and yet still, apple made me buy two $100 dual link DVI adapters! My old ati 2600 HD's came with two dual link DVI ports and a DVI to VGA adapter, for $130 a piece.


OK, first off the cards have DVI too. You can connect monitors to the dual link DVI port that is on the card. The majority of monitors, including most of Apple's recent monitors, have a DVI connection that you can connect to without an adapter. If you want to use more than one monitor through your graphics card, then yeah, you have to buy an adapter (unless your second monitor is Display Port). Unfortunately this is pure economics. They include connections that are compatible with the majority of monitors today. The majority of people have only 1 monitor, the percentage with more than one is very small. It just doesn't make financial sense to bundle an adapter that would only be used by a small number of people with every card. OK a small number of people may feel disgruntled about it, but at the end of the day it doesn't make sense for them to bundle an adapter - that for the majority of customers would sit unused gathering dust - with every card that they sell because it doesn't make financial sense. They save money by not including it and they sell a few to people who need it - they are a business. They exist to make money.

2) Apple has begun to ignore major software problems. Over the past year I have had more software glitches on my mac pro, then any other computer I have EVER used. iMovie doesn't show all my clips, iPhoto wont export my slideshow, final cut wont render, the list goes on. When ever I call apple care, Which by the way cost me $250 on top of a $4000 machine, they tell me that they do not have a solution and to wait for the next software update. I have an idea apple, Il stop payment on my mac pro next time, and tell you to wait for my new job.


OK, your software isn't working the way it should. Doesn't mean there is a bug in the program. The majority of people don't have the problems you do so something in your particular setup is causing a set of issues for you. You need to get software support. OK, you may have not had luck with Apple Care getting the issues resolved, but it doesn't mean it can't be solved. Why not take it to a Genius Bar. With no disrespect to Apple Care, there is only so much you can do over the phone. At the end of the day it is easier for Apple to fix the problem if they can see and interact with the issue than from second hand information over the phone.


3) Apple has recently enacted on a plan to screw customers with macs older then 3 or 4 years old. My 1 year old mac pro, again a $4000 mac, did not support open CL in Snow Leopard. The only graphic cards I can get to support open CL, cost over $400 a piece, and I cant run 8 displays with them. (I bought the mac pro with the intent to one day run 8 displays) I mean come on! I decided to wing it with the Gt120, and it gives me mouse errors ALL THE TIME. * mouse jump


Yeah, I know this kinda sucks. Many older cards would work fine with it.


4) Forcing users to download new software. Example; Itunes. If you want to use the itunes store you need to latest version of itunes. Not only that but you also need the latest version of Safari. I don't use safari, and I dont want to update something I don't use. And if you have ilife 08, every time you open a program you are greeted by a pop up window telling you how your old software blows and how you should buy the new one.


Unfortunately the iTunes Store thing is probably more just technology based. The iTunes store is basically xml. If they are using new features on the store that require particular parts of iTunes to be updated in order to run it then unfortunately you have to update to use it. How else is it meant to work. Are you asking them to stop adding features and improving things just because you don't want to update or are you just scared of change? I don't get your point here.

You don't need to see the new version dialogue box every time. Again, just untick the box that says to see the dialogue every time you open the program and it goes away.


Dont put words in my mouth! I said two ATI XT 2600 HD's THOSE CAME WITH MY MAC PRO!

Which blow. They are terrible cards.

[goMac]

Ok, while agree, Apple has things it needs to work on, things are not as Unfortunately the iTunes Store thing is probably more just technology based. The iTunes store is basically xml. If they are using new features on the store that require particular parts of iTunes to be updated in order to run it then unfortunately you have to update to use it. How else is it meant to work. Are you asking them to stop adding features and improving things just because you don't want to update or are you just scared of change? I don't get your point here.

This is also very true. The iTunes Store in iTunes 9 is entirely different than the one in previous versions. It's entirely new tech, not just a "Hey, let's force everyone to update!" thing. In fact, iTunes 9 now uses a WebKit rendering engine, the new store won't even work in the old iTunes.

[Demonfart]

I don't think serious graphic, photo, or A/V professionals are having trouble with their Mac Pros. I'm not.

Actually at least one serious graphic/av professional has had big issues with his Mac Pro. Don't get me wrong, I love it when it works, it's an amazing machine. And I make a pretty healthy amount of money in my trade so I can't complain about pricing (in fact for me, when my Mac Pro is working %100, it's a bargain in my opinion). I'm definitely in the uppper stratosphere of wage earning in the design trade.

But man is this thing buggy. I spent almost 1 solid month in tech support, running several 'logging' programs for Apple's engineering department, I've been to the genius bar, I've had techs do in home visits twice and replace memory/logic board/video card/hard drive, and after all that a stealth update (the last bluetooth update) mostly fixed my machine (it mostly works fine now but it's still a bit buggy in 1gig+ sized photoshop files and/or any beefy file for that matter).

So no, you are not at all correct in assuming serious graphic/av pros are not having issues with their machines. I've had more issues with this new Mac Pro than just about any workstation I've ever used (although I still maintain I love it when it works).

[Tesselator]

Pure conjecture. Each of your "facts" can be opposed by opposite "facts" making your statement opinion based.

Why don't you give it a shot.

Indeed!

But I know why... ;)

[TheStrudel]

Actually at least one serious graphic/av professional has had big issues with his Mac Pro. Don't get me wrong, I love it when it works, it's an amazing machine. And I make a pretty healthy amount of money in my trade so I can't complain about pricing (in fact for me, when my Mac Pro is working %100, it's a bargain in my opinion). I'm definitely in the uppper stratosphere of wage earning in the design trade.

But man is this thing buggy. I spent almost 1 solid month in tech support, running several 'logging' programs for Apple's engineering department, I've been to the genius bar, I've had techs do in home visits twice and replace memory/logic board/video card/hard drive, and after all that a stealth update (the last bluetooth update) mostly fixed my machine (it mostly works fine now but it's still a bit buggy in 1gig+ sized photoshop files and/or any beefy file for that matter).

So no, you are not at all correct in assuming serious graphic/av pros are not having issues with their machines. I've had more issues with this new Mac Pro than just about any workstation I've ever used (although I still maintain I love it when it works).

I mean conceptually, on featureset and performance. No hardware release sees 100% of its product working completely all the time, and I obviously can't speak for people whose product is dead on arrival. I realize this sucks given what you pay for it, but that's pretty much why you get a year of free tech support. You got a bad box. Some people do. But when the hardware is working...you yourself admit that it does everything you need it to.

[nanofrog]

Actually at least one serious graphic/av professional has had big issues with his Mac Pro. Don't get me wrong, I love it when it works, it's an amazing machine. And I make a pretty healthy amount of money in my trade so I can't complain about pricing (in fact for me, when my Mac Pro is working %100, it's a bargain in my opinion). I'm definitely in the uppper stratosphere of wage earning in the design trade.

But man is this thing buggy. I spent almost 1 solid month in tech support, running several 'logging' programs for Apple's engineering department, I've been to the genius bar, I've had techs do in home visits twice and replace memory/logic board/video card/hard drive, and after all that a stealth update (the last bluetooth update) mostly fixed my machine (it mostly works fine now but it's still a bit buggy in 1gig+ sized photoshop files and/or any beefy file for that matter).

So no, you are not at all correct in assuming serious graphic/av pros are not having issues with their machines. I've had more issues with this new Mac Pro than just about any workstation I've ever used (although I still maintain I love it when it works).
It seems you've had quite an ordeal with that machine. It shouldn't be common, but that's still a lot to go through. Given it's a pro machine, perhaps a new one would have been in order, rather than Apple use you as a guinea pig, unless this was part of a develper agreement. But it's not acceptable if it weren't IMO.

After all of that mess though, I'd think it more a love-hate scenario. :eek: :p

[HyperX13]

I own an IT company. We fix windows computers. I run macs at home. When I come home, I don't have to fiddle. I had some issues with my 2006 mac pro, but they turned out to be heat related (ATI card sucked in tons of dust).

Saying Apple is almost like Microsoft, well, it depends. Both want to make money, but Apple pays more attention to quality than MS. I know. I make my money on MSes bad quality. And that includes Windows 7 as well.

[nanofrog]

I own an IT company. We fix windows computers. I run macs at home. When I come home, I don't have to fiddle. I had some issues with my 2006 mac pro, but they turned out to be heat related (ATI card sucked in tons of dust).

Saying Apple is almost like Microsoft, well, it depends. Both want to make money, but Apple pays more attention to quality than MS. I know. I make my money on MSes bad quality. And that includes Windows 7 as well.
The fact Apple has to develop to a closed system more than likely explains the differences. Afterall, they aren't trying to develop software that runs on basically every machine out there. ;) :p

They don't design the hardware though, just the case and OS. The electronic components are all ODM, and most of it falls on Intel for the MP, and Foxconn for the other products. There's a few exceptions, such as the PCIe based graphics cards (multiple sources, depending on the GPU used and when) and Apple RAID Pro (LSI btw).