OMG! IBM, Acer, Fujitsu and Gateway are on the verge of going bust

[ChrisH3677]

Just read the latest marketshare (http://idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=pr2004_07_14_153325) figures and it looks like IBM, Acer, Fujitsu and Gateway are doomed. Sell your stocks while you can! :eek:

Why? Coz their marketshares (from 3.2% to 5.6%, either US or worldwide) aren't all that different to Apple's - and everyone knows Apple's marketshare (3.7% in the US) is too small for them to survive. :eek:

Oh? Do I sound sarcastic? Oops! :p :p :p :D

PS Some will argue that in these figures, Apple's marketshare went down... but interestingly, their shipments went up 9.3%. Given the total market increased 10.9%... Apple did well to nearly match it. And they managed to capture 3.3% of that overall increase. So, I'm happy - they're sailing pretty steady.

[NusuniAdmin]

Why? Coz their marketshares (from 3.2% to 5.6%, either US or worldwide) aren't all that different to Apple's - and everyone knows Apple's marketshare (3.7% in the US) is too small for them to survive. :eek:


hah, apple aint going anywhewre for a while...to be honest i could see apple surviving after microsoft falls :)

[Abstract]

Same here. Apple is like the cockroach of the computer industry .... but a good cockroach that's smart and pretty to look at. ;)

[edesignuk]

IBM will never die, can you imagine how much money that must rake in from patents alone? Remember, most computers on the planet are "IBM compatible" ;).

[GulGnu]

Just read the latest marketshare (http://idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=pr2004_07_14_153325) figures and it looks like IBM, Acer, Fujitsu and Gateway are doomed. Sell your stocks while you can! :eek:


The reason some us are worried about Apple's maketshare isn't their share of the PC market - it's their share of the OS market that's the problem.

Why? Network effect. The more people that have PC:s, the more profitable it becomes to make software for them. More software = PC:s become more useful = More people buy PC:s, etc.

[Solafaa]

Thats just silly. You dont need more then %3 of any market share. Apple dose not sped as much on costs, so all the income they get is not all spent.

When the .com thingy happend did the internet stop working? no. Did all .com lose money? no. There are many companies doing well (eBay.com, amazon.com and many othere).

I dotn fear apple future, they have very loyal customers like me and you, they will do well.

[Mac_Max]

IBM will never die, can you imagine how much money that must rake in from patents alone? Remember, most computers on the planet are "IBM compatible" ;).


IBM makes $0 from the fact that other computers are "IBM compatible." No one uses IBM's technology for x86 systems. They buy Intel chipsets & intel CPUs & use those in their designs. They didn't really make of it in the 80s either since the other major companies were making clones that had no license from IBM. They used 3rd party BIOS chips & bought the same Intel chips as IBM did.

[Krizoitz]

The reason some us are worried about Apple's maketshare isn't their share of the PC market - it's their share of the OS market that's the problem.

Why? Network effect. The more people that have PC:s, the more profitable it becomes to make software for them. More software = PC:s become more useful = More people buy PC:s, etc.

Wow that software argument gets old. How many word proccesors do you need. The only market I have come across that you don't find the software on Mac you do on PC's is games, and thats only a problem if you are a hard core gamer, in which case you want a PC anyway.

[Artimus]

Market share decreases EVERY year as more and more products are sold...

[crazzyeddie]

IBM makes $0 from the fact that other computers are "IBM compatible." No one uses IBM's technology for x86 systems. They buy Intel chipsets & intel CPUs & use those in their designs. They didn't really make of it in the 80s either since the other major companies were making clones that had no license from IBM. They used 3rd party BIOS chips & bought the same Intel chips as IBM did.

Im sorry, but you are seriously misinformed. IBM makes tons of money off of their patents for chip production. Even Intel pays IBM money for techniques they use in making the Pentium 4! IBM makes their own servers which sell very well- Ever heard of the Power series, like what the PPC 970 (aka G5) is based off of? And that same G5 is said to be in the next Xbox and Gamecube. Now, tell me, is IBM going bust? Hell no.

[bousozoku]

Im sorry, but you are seriously misinformed. IBM makes tons of money off of their patents for chip production. Even Intel pays IBM money for techniques they use in making the Pentium 4! IBM makes their own servers which sell very well- Ever heard of the Power series, like what the PPC 970 (aka G5) is based off of? And that same G5 is said to be in the next Xbox and Gamecube. Now, tell me, is IBM going bust? Hell no.

IBM really doesn't make much money in the PC business at all. Their money is mostly made in services and big machines--those supporting thousands of users. Their margins in those areas are pretty good.

[7on]

Wow that software argument gets old. How many word proccesors do you need. The only market I have come across that you don't find the software on Mac you do on PC's is games, and thats only a problem if you are a hard core gamer, in which case you want a PC anyway.

Not to mention that if there's a demand to be filled, Apple will make the product themselves. IE was cancelled, Apple released Safari. Premiere had major bugs - which obviously wasn't being fixed by Adobe, so Apple released FCE.

Games have never been a high concern with Apple. Dunno why, they're just not.

[kanker]

IE was cancelled, Apple released Safari.Actually, IE was cancelled as a result of Safari, with MS saying that since Apple had developed a proprietary browser that was standards compliant and was a faster browser as a result than any they could make for Mac OS, that they would be dropping IE support. Basically, it was their way of saying that MS shouldn't be blamed (anti-trust) for all of their proprietary crap that hampers developers, SunMicrosystems in particular probably.

[edesignuk]

IBM makes $0 from the fact that other computers are "IBM compatible." No one uses IBM's technology for x86 systems. They buy Intel chipsets & intel CPUs & use those in their designs. They didn't really make of it in the 80s either since the other major companies were making clones that had no license from IBM. They used 3rd party BIOS chips & bought the same Intel chips as IBM did.
Really? Wow, I'm amazed, I really thought they'd get something. Oh well...I'll just shutup then :eek: :)

[yamabushi]

Not to mention that if there's a demand to be filled, Apple will make the product themselves. IE was cancelled, Apple released Safari. Premiere had major bugs - which obviously wasn't being fixed by Adobe, so Apple released FCE.

Games have never been a high concern with Apple. Dunno why, they're just not.

Shouldn't Apple make their own games, then also? Just a couple of really cool ones would help Apple's image in the eyes of gamers. I bet the performance and graphics quality would be awesome since they know better than anybody how to take advantage of the features in the OS and hardware.

Maybe Pixar should get in on the action as well due to their experience in the entertainment industry.

[ChrisH3677]

The reason some us are worried about Apple's maketshare isn't their share of the PC market - it's their share of the OS market that's the problem.

Why? Network effect. The more people that have PC:s, the more profitable it becomes to make software for them. More software = PC:s become more useful = More people buy PC:s, etc.

Their share of what OS market? Server? Unix? Desktop! ok... but then Dell have ZERO percent of the desktop OS market - and they're not going out the door.

Let's think....

- Apple have 3.7% (in US) of personal computer sales.

- Apple have ZERO percent of the Windows market (tho you might argue technicalities that VPC and RDC give them a smidge percent - but I wouldn't since people don't buy Macs specifically as Windows boxes)

- Apple have ZERO percent of the Linux market (tho again, with Yellowdog etc, you might argue otherwise - but does anyone buy a Mac to specifically run Linux?)

- Apple have ONE HUNDRED percent of the Mac market.

- Dell etc have ZERO percent of the Mac market - yet do they look worried?

- There's plenty enough vendors making software for OSX for us not to be worried.

- Lastly, marketshare is only an indicator of sales market - it's not a measure of the installed base - which some say is between 5 and 10% of the desktop installed base. This is also significant to software developers.

[G5orbust]

IBM is a HUGE company. Its got its foot in the door on just about every established technology on this planet. It produces chips for AMD and Apple, as well as itself. It has a huge server business.

IBM isnt going anywhere.

[Fukui]

Actually, IE was cancelled as a result of Safari, with MS saying that since Apple had developed a proprietary browser that was standards compliant and was a faster browser as a result than any they could make for Mac OS, that they would be dropping IE support. Basically, it was their way of saying that MS shouldn't be blamed (anti-trust) for all of their proprietary crap that hampers developers, SunMicrosystems in particular probably.
I bet you anything apple got dropped a hint early that IE development was stopping, and developed safari in advance; they were lucky. Otherwise we would all be using either buggy IE or ugly Mozilla. Remember IE has ceased development for Windows and Mac TOGETHER, this was done to maximize features in Longhorn, and longhorn only. This decision was made a long time ago.

[Fukui]

- There's plenty enough vendors making software for OSX for us not to be worried.

- Lastly, marketshare is only an indicator of sales market - it's not a measure of the installed base - which some say is between 5 and 10% of the desktop installed base. This is also significant to software developers.
Exactly, 30 million potential customers are nothing to sneeze at.

[garybUK]

IBM : Probably one of the biggest compaines around, there is no way they are going bust, although I dont see many compaines outside the US using their services but they are still one of the companies that do true R&D.

Acer : Dont know much about

Fujitsu: These are yet another massive company, I cant see these going too fast either, they ditched their computer section and is now manufactured with Siemens. They make some quite good systems now, but Fujitsu makes other things than computers, Air conditioning etc.. They are massive in the services field, outsourcing software support, software development etc. This is mainly from the days they took over ICL (a UK Government IT compay). Many of their i.t. services sector is based on the old ICL model.

Gateway: haha they left the rest of the world and shrank into a little company running in north america who cares about this dell clone who make cheap nasty computers out of taiwan.

Personally i cant see how you can claim Dell, Gateway, Acer etc are in the same league as Fujistu, IBM, HP etc... the major difference being that IBM, HP, Fujistsu offer much more than a cheap plastic pc built in taiwan.

[yamabushi]

Gateway: haha they left the rest of the world and shrank into a little company running in north america who cares about this dell clone who make cheap nasty computers out of taiwan.

Personally i cant see how you can claim Dell, Gateway, Acer etc are in the same league as Fujistu, IBM, HP etc... the major difference being that IBM, HP, Fujistsu offer much more than a cheap plastic pc built in taiwan.
Apple computers are also made in Taiwan as well as mainland China. China and Taiwan together produce the vast majority of computers in the world. Personally I find this to be a very scary situation for the rest of us. It also isn't in the best interest of many businesses.

[geese]

The whole 95% windows market share arguement is doesnt actually tell you much.

That figure includes computing devices that you wouldnt think about, like cash registers, door-entry systems and ATM's (I know this, because my local Halifax bank ATM occassionally breaks down with a Windows error dialogue box, or sometimes the Dos 'Abour, Retry or Fail')

Obviously Apple are never going to target OS X to this type of market. Macs are purely Multimedia machines. Windows is a jack-of-all-trades platform.

[superbovine]

Just read the latest marketshare (http://idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=pr2004_07_14_153325) figures and it looks like IBM, Acer, Fujitsu and Gateway are doomed. Sell your stocks while you can! :eek

funny..

http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/2004-03-22-fortune-500-list_x.htm


NEW YORK (AP) — The Fortune 500 ranking of the nation's largest companies compiled by Fortune magazine on the basis of 2003 revenue. Each entry includes rank, name of company, headquarters, last year's rank and 2003 revenue in billions of dollars.

9. International Business Machines Corp., Armonk, N.Y., 8, $89.131
301. Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, Calif., 300, $6.207
484. Gateway Inc., Poway, Calif., 387, $3.402

[wrldwzrd89]

Just read the latest marketshare (http://idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=pr2004_07_14_153325) figures and it looks like IBM, Acer, Fujitsu and Gateway are doomed. Sell your stocks while you can! :eek:

Why? Coz their marketshares (from 3.2% to 5.6%, either US or worldwide) aren't all that different to Apple's - and everyone knows Apple's marketshare (3.7% in the US) is too small for them to survive. :eek:

Oh? Do I sound sarcastic? Oops! :p :p :p :D

PS Some will argue that in these figures, Apple's marketshare went down... but interestingly, their shipments went up 9.3%. Given the total market increased 10.9%... Apple did well to nearly match it. And they managed to capture 3.3% of that overall increase. So, I'm happy - they're sailing pretty steady.
Why did IDC limit the servers included under the PC category to x86? Why isn't Apple's Xserve included?

[ChrisH3677]

IBM : Probably one of the biggest compaines around, there is no way they are going bust, although I dont see many compaines outside the US using their services but they are still one of the companies that do true R&D.

Acer : Dont know much about

Fujitsu: These are yet another massive company, I cant see these going too fast either, they ditched their computer section and is now manufactured with Siemens. They make some quite good systems now, but Fujitsu makes other things than computers, Air conditioning etc.. They are massive in the services field, outsourcing software support, software development etc. This is mainly from the days they took over ICL (a UK Government IT compay). Many of their i.t. services sector is based on the old ICL model.

Gateway: haha they left the rest of the world and shrank into a little company running in north america who cares about this dell clone who make cheap nasty computers out of taiwan.

Personally i cant see how you can claim Dell, Gateway, Acer etc are in the same league as Fujistu, IBM, HP etc... the major difference being that IBM, HP, Fujistsu offer much more than a cheap plastic pc built in taiwan.

Did you miss the point?

[Timelessblur]

I bet you anything apple got dropped a hint early that IE development was stopping, and developed safari in advance; they were lucky. Otherwise we would all be using either buggy IE or ugly Mozilla. Remember IE has ceased development for Windows and Mac TOGETHER, this was done to maximize features in Longhorn, and longhorn only. This decision was made a long time ago.


Umm there have been IE updates since they drop support for Apple IE. Windows is also getting a new verson of IE in the next few months and some more IE stuff is coming with SP2.

Also you need to remeber that PC maker make like 10-15 bukcs off the computers they sell compared to apple making 100+ per computer so having a very small market share hurts the PC a lot more

[BornAgainMac]

Games have never been a high concern with Apple. Dunno why, they're just not.

OpenGL I was introduced by Steve Jobs several years ago as a standard for the Mac (for OS X) to encourage more games development. It was back in a keynote around 2000 or 1999. I wish I can see that keynote again so that I can quote exactly what he said.

[Mr. Anderson]

Did you even look at the whole chart? The last column is growth - they're all doing pretty damn well. Besides, this is just in computers - IBM does a whole lot more than just sell computers..... :rolleyes:

D

[ChrisH3677]

Did you even look at the whole chart? The last column is growth - they're all doing pretty damn well. Besides, this is just in computers - IBM does a whole lot more than just sell computers..... :rolleyes:

D

that's right - which also supports my point.

and Apple also does a lot more than just personal computers - another reason not to be concerned about their future.

[BenRoethig]

IBM really isn't in the consumer desktop business anymore. They sell PCs, but they are more geared to business then they are home use. IBMs real bread and butter are their server/workstation and manufactuering businesses.

[yamabushi]

Actually selling consulting and middleware is now IBM's core business. Hardware sales only account for a measly few billion dollars. There have been some signals that indicate that they might wish to expand the hardware side a bit more in the future.

[iMeowbot]

Why did IDC limit the servers included under the PC category to x86? Why isn't Apple's Xserve included?
At this point it hardly matters. This past quarter Apple sold 13000 of them, and that was a record. Regardless, they are really competing more in the Unix server space than with PC servers (which still usually run Windows).

[SiliconAddict]

Thats just silly. You dont need more then %3 of any market share. Apple dose not sped as much on costs, so all the income they get is not all spent.

To get developers you sure as heck do. Lets see if I'm creating a peice of software and have to developed it for the PC or the Mac which platform is more likely to generate more sales? 3% market share or 95%? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.

Beyond that software DOES matter. I do NOT care what anyone says there is something psychotically soothing about having row upon row of software titles to choose from. It not only gives you choice it also is reassuring that the platform you chose is thriving. Now step into an Apple store and see the 3 racks of software titles. Sorry. That WOULD be disconcerting to the average user and never mind the fact that Apple pads the shelves with books and duplicate titles to make the shelves look fuller then they really are.

[SiliconAddict]

Actually selling consulting and middleware is now IBM's core business. Hardware sales only account for a measly few billion dollars. There have been some signals that indicate that they might wish to expand the hardware side a bit more in the future.

IBM isn't going to be doing anything to their hardware for a while. Their hardware mobile platform is doing pretty dang well as far as I can tell. Our entire company nation wide just migrated to IBM laptops last fall. Multiple fortune 500 companies I've been to all are running IBM hardware. Their server platform alone is a pretty big money maker.

And to be honest IBM out innovates the crap out of Apple at least when it comes to hardware innovation.

[tomjleeds]

IBM really doesn't make much money in the PC business at all. Their money is mostly made in services and big machines--those supporting thousands of users. Their margins in those areas are pretty good.

Right on. I did work experience at IBM and that's where all of the energy goes - servicing IBM servers and frames and Dell workstations :rolleyes:

[SiliconAddict]

that's right - which also supports my point.

and Apple also does a lot more than just personal computers - another reason not to be concerned about their future.


Dude the only thing Apple does other then the computer is the iPod. (Do you really think they are making a killing on X Servers?!?) If they didn't have the iPod Apple as a company would be very... :(

And I wouldn't put too much faith in just the iPod. Yes it's doing fantastically well right now. Apple and co should be patting themselves on the back. However companies that rely on a single product to keep them going make investors nervous. And rightly so. This year is the first year Apple has had any real competition in the digital music player (DMP) arena. So far they have stayed ahead of the pack by making relatively smart decisions. But I really question long term if this is going to work out in Apple's favor. Unless Apple is willing to take a major hit in profits, something they have never done in the past, to make a sale they very well could become marginalized as cheaper DMP enter the market. Keep in mind that one of the reasons the PC is kicking the Mac's *** is because you can get a computer for aprox half a grand. People are willing to live with that kind of quality. If this attitude transfers over to the DMP market Apple is screwed if they don't follow the trend of cheaper devices. Also keep in mind that in the DMP market they still don't even own 50%. Its something like 30-35%. Yes they are the largest single portion DMP market but when it comes to market share the are still behind the rest.
And YES that number IS important. Apple is not only battling for first place in the DMP market but also digital audio codec market. By not owning at least 50% of the market they risk having AAC being relegated to 3rd place for format after WMA and MP3. WMA still has a strong lead right now. They aren't an industry standard like AAC is but they don't have to be. Nab enough market share and they will become the pseudo standard by default.
If Apple is going to continue to thrive they need to get beyond the DMP and the PC. I seriously hope we start seeing other apple products come out on the market that can leverage their ability create innovative "designs" that just work. Cell phone anyone? Cordless VoIP phone for the home that runs through your computer? Apple DVR? There is a world of consumer electronics that Apple could make a massive killing on. I hope to see this happen sooner rather then later.

[ChrisH3677]

Dude the only thing Apple does other then the computer is the iPod. (Do you really think they are making a killing on X Servers?!?) If they didn't have the iPod Apple as a company would be very... :(

um.... so Apple do servers and DMPs too? Sounds to me like they are trying not to limit themselves to one market segment. And you forgot to mention software. It doesn't matter how small their server market is - a few years ago it didn't exist at all remember.

And I wouldn't put too much faith in just the iPod. Yes it's doing fantastically well right now. Apple and co should be patting themselves on the back. However companies that rely on a single product to keep them going make investors nervous. And rightly so. This year is the first year Apple has had any real competition in the digital music player (DMP) arena. So far they have stayed ahead of the pack by making relatively smart decisions. But I really question long term if this is going to work out in Apple's favor. Unless Apple is willing to take a major hit in profits, something they have never done in the past, to make a sale they very well could become marginalized as cheaper DMP enter the market. Keep in mind that one of the reasons the PC is kicking the Mac's *** is because you can get a computer for aprox half a grand. People are willing to live with that kind of quality. If this attitude transfers over to the DMP market Apple is screwed if they don't follow the trend of cheaper devices. Also keep in mind that in the DMP market they still don't even own 50%. Its something like 30-35%. Yes they are the largest single portion DMP market but when it comes to market share the are still behind the rest.

ok...on that logic Michael Dell must be an insominiac. Poor guy - he's *only* got 32% of the WinTel PC market.


And YES that number IS important. Apple is not only battling for first place in the DMP market but also digital audio codec market. By not owning at least 50% of the market they risk having AAC being relegated to 3rd place for format after WMA and MP3. WMA still has a strong lead right now. They aren't an industry standard like AAC is but they don't have to be. Nab enough market share and they will become the pseudo standard by default.

Fair enough but really - if AAC genuinely looks like losing, I think Steve will be mature enough this time to know to get compatible. If you doubt that check how much Windows compatible stuff they've got now: OSX, iPod, iTunes, iTMS, Filemaker etc. Plus they've dropped some of their proprietary standards (eg ADC)

Personally, I think Sony is the one with the most power to dictate the music format - since they are music producers, music sellers and DMP manufacturers.

If Apple is going to continue to thrive they need to get beyond the DMP and the PC. I seriously hope we start seeing other apple products come out on the market that can leverage their ability create innovative "designs" that just work. Cell phone anyone? Cordless VoIP phone for the home that runs through your computer? Apple DVR? There is a world of consumer electronics that Apple could make a massive killing on. I hope to see this happen sooner rather then later.

So? You expect this to happen overnight? It's a slow process. You criticized Apple's server market, yet at least they're expanding their product base. You criticize their iPod market share, yet at least they're in there.

So if (and probably when) they get into the things you suggest, are you going to bag them again because they won't capture enough market to keep you happy?

Apple are doing what you want - trying to get into different markets so they aren't dependent on any one product for their success. Yet you still bag them for it! :confused: :mad: