Gov. Criticizes Legislators as 'Girlie Men'

[IJ Reilly]

In the "what was he thinking?" department...

In a speech in Ontario, he urges voters to 'terminate' at the polls those lawmakers who refuse to approve his state budget plan.

Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger mocked his opponents in the California Legislature on Saturday as "girlie men," and called upon voters to "terminate" them at the polls in November if they don't pass his $103-billion budget.

Using tough rhetoric that borrowed from his days as a bodybuilder and actor, the governor said state lawmakers are telling "lies" and are "back to their old habits" after a post-recall burst of bipartisan collaboration.

Legislators, he said at a rally in the food court of the Ontario Mills shopping center, are "part of a bureaucracy that is out of shape, that is out of date, that is out of touch and that is definitely out of control in Sacramento."

Schwarzenegger added, "They cannot have the guts to come out there in front of you and say, 'I don't want to represent you. I want to represent those special interests: the unions, the trial lawyers'…. I call them girlie men. They should get back to the table, and they should finish the budget."

Democratic lawmakers, gay and lesbian advocates and feminist groups bristled over the governor's comments, which were greeted with sustained applause by hundreds of people who were invited to the rally through automated phone calls put out by Schwarzenegger's camp.

The governor used the "girlie men" reference twice in a 16-minute speech aimed at pressuring the Legislature to pass his budget, now 17 days late. The remarks were apparently references to an old "Saturday Night Live" skit parodying Schwarzenegger. Comedians Dana Carvey and Kevin Nealon played "pumped-up" bodybuilders with Austrian accents who dismissed anyone without a muscled torso as a "girlie man."

Though the four leaders in the Senate and Assembly are men, women head some of the Legislature's most influential committees, ranging from Appropriations to Energy. The California Legislative Women's Caucus website lists 33 members — more than one-fourth of the Legislature.

Senate President Pro Tem John Burton (D-San Francisco) said he was "nonplused" by Schwarzenegger's comment.

"I don't know what the definition of 'girlie man' is. As opposed to his being a he-man?" Burton asked. "I can't think of a way to have the he-man and the girlie men join hands around the Capitol and sing 'Kum Ba Ya.' "

Assembly Speaker Fabian Nuñez (D-Los Angeles) said, "Those are the kinds of statements that ought not to come out of the mouth" of the governor.

"He says he's going to 'terminate' members in November? I really don't know what he means by that. That's not funny any more," Nuñez said.

...

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-arnold18jul18,1,6443246.story

[skunk]

Didn't take long, did it?

[zimv20]

i look forward to any forthcoming poll data

[Neserk]

and WHY did Maria Shriver marry him, exactly?

[edesignuk]

Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger mocked his opponents in the California Legislature on Saturday as "girlie men," and called upon voters to "terminate" them at the polls in November if they don't pass his $103-billion budget.
Fantastic! http://upload.edesignuk.net/uploaded_data/smilies/rollinglaugh.gif http://upload.edesignuk.net/uploaded_data/smilies/rollinglaugh.gif http://upload.edesignuk.net/uploaded_data/smilies/rollinglaugh.gif http://upload.edesignuk.net/uploaded_data/smilies/rollinglaugh.gif

[Backtothemac]

Wait, please tell me that you don't think he did something wrong. He made a comment about a skit on saturday night, and that is wrong. Fact is, he is right. THe scum bags rumming that legislature are out of control, and need someone to ring them in.

Oh, my program did not get funded, so I am going to hold up the hold budget. People are so damn selfish that they can't see the forrest for the trees.

[Neserk]

Wait, please tell me that you don't think he did something wrong.

Did you *read* his comments? "girlie-man" It is sexist for one; name calling for two; and completely inappropriate, for three. Not sure what people were expecting when they hijacked the governor's office and threw him in.... but usually actions like that are about people *not* thinking...

[Thomas Veil]

Musta been a week for homophobic slurs.

I was driving around Friday, and decided to see what idiocy Rush Limbaugh was up to. To my horror, he hit a new low by describing Kerry and Edwards on the campaign trail as "two guys who can't keep their hands off each other." He claimed Kerry was tousling Edwards' hair, that they've been caressing each others' faces, and even started to say that they've been cupping each others behinds before thinking better of it and stopping mid-sentence.

He also went on to say that Teresa Kerry winces whenever husband John looks in her direction, as if to say, "Don't touch me."

Really nice. Can't fight 'em on the issues, so let's make them out to be gay lovers, sexually creepy, or some other sewer-level cheap shot. :mad:

[skunk]

Really nice. Can't fight 'em on the issues, so let's make them out to be gay lovers, sexually creepy, or some other sewer-level cheap shot. :mad:
It's all they've got left, poor things.

[Neserk]

It's all they've got left, poor things.

LOL...

[bousozoku]

Did you *read* his comments? "girlie-man" It is sexist for one; name calling for two; and completely inappropriate, for three. Not sure what people were expecting when they hijacked the governor's office and threw him in.... but usually actions like that are about people *not* thinking...


Yes, it's terrible to be direct about it. It's much better to skirt each issue or apply faint innuendo to the situation, so that everyone can ignore it.

[mactastic]

What? It's not like he told anyone to 'go eff yourself'. If we aren't going to get outraged by that, or by Dennis Miller making gay jokes about the Democratic candidates while introducing the President at a campaign stop, then why would anyone get upset about Arnold's statements here? :cool:

Anyway, can you imagine the volume of the right wing echo chamber if any Democrat had dared to suggest that a lawmaker be 'terminated'? I'd need earplugs to keep down the din!

[skunk]

Yes, it's terrible to be direct about it. It's much better to skirt each issue or apply faint innuendo to the situation, so that everyone can ignore it.

Yeah, right. Between Arnold and Dick, Republican political dialogue is reaching new heights!

And what's "skirting the issue" if it's not "faint innuendo"? :rolleyes:

[IJ Reilly]

We knew the man was sexist even before he ran for governor, and it didn't seem to make any difference then and I have an idea it won't now. A lot of people voted for him enthusiastically just the same, including a great many women. (Ladies, could you kindly explain this to us poor befuddled men?)

[Neserk]

(Ladies, could you kindly explain this to us poor befuddled men?)


I'd love to but I'm completely clueless on the issue. I certainly didn't vote for him and was completely against him getting in. On principle of the whole recall being a load of you-know-what and on his personal qualifications and his past behavior.

[bousozoku]

Yeah, right. Between Arnold and Dick, Republican political dialogue is reaching new heights!

And what's "skirting the issue" if it's not "faint innuendo"? :rolleyes:

Skirting the issue would be not addressing it at all, a matter of degree, in contrast to faint innuendo. :D

[zimv20]

Oh, my program did not get funded, so I am going to hold up the hold budget. People are so damn selfish that they can't see the forrest for the trees.
just out of curiosity, to exactly which programs are you referring, and who are these legislators holding up the process?

[pseudobrit]

It's all they've got left, poor things.

That, and a few 'scripts for Oxycontin.

It's usually the squeaky wheel that needs the grease. Anyone wonder why Rush has had three failed marriages and to find his last wife he had to dredge the internet?

Miller was great on SNL and on Dennis Miller Live; I have no idea what happened to him. I guess it's hard trying to keep on the bleeding edge of comedy when you hit 50, but Carlin's kept up. Miller's not so much funny anymore as he is angry.
He used to be able to blend the two brilliantly and you got the feeling his rants' anger were attributable to histrionics rather than genuine disgust.

"I don't walk around in my everyday life like some incensed Rasputin. If I did, do you know how alone I'd be in the world?"
-- Dennis Miller, 1997

Whoops.

[pseudobrit]

Wait, please tell me that you don't think he did something wrong.

I consider his remarks to be a slur against women everywhere. To use the phrase girlie-man to insult someone show that the insulter considers women to be lesser humans (otherwise they wouldn't consider it to be an insult).

Arnold is not on SNL, nor is he in a movie. He's not at a premiere or anywhere else where clowning around with risque humour is going to work. He's speaking as Governor of California on official business and should be a little more serious and respectful.

It's one thing for South Park or Howard Stern to make Jewish jokes, it'd be quite another if Dick Cheney got up and started paraphrasing their bits at fundraisers to insult Hollywood.

Oh, my program did not get funded, so I am going to hold up the hold budget. People are so damn selfish that they can't see the forrest for the trees.

You're right, those goddamn GOP lawmakers need to stop holding up (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-budget15jul15,1,86243.story?coll=la-headlines-california) the budget!
SACRAMENTO — With most spending issues resolved, matters with little direct connection to the overdue state budget — such as school buses and worker lawsuits — emerged Wednesday as the newest barriers to a final deal.

Many GOP lawmakers say they won't support a spending plan unless the Legislature repeals what they call the "sue your boss" law, which this year expanded opportunities for workers to file lawsuits against employers. They also want repealed a law that restricts schools from hiring private companies for transportation and other services.

I didn't think I'd see you come out so strongly against the Republicans.

[sethypoo]

and WHY did Maria Shriver marry him, exactly?

He wowed her with his mighty pectorals.

[Thomas Veil]

He wowed her with his mighty pectorals.
LOL.

I don't know if that would work the other way 'round, though. Would you marry a Republican girl just because she's got a "mighty chest"? :D

[Sayhey]

LOL.

I don't know if that would work the other way 'round, though. Would you marry a Republican girl just because she's got a "mighty chest"? :D

You mean like the idiots lined up to marry Brittany Spears?

[mactastic]

You mean like the idiots lined up to marry Brittany Spears?

Not to mention the ones who think Coulter is 'hot'.

The funny part to me is that liberals are forced to apologize for these kinds of remarks, but conservatives are allowed to say that it makes them feel better to cuss out their opponents and that's ok with the same moralizers that condemn Whoopi Goldberg. And remember, these are the same 'family values' and 'changing the tone' crowd that has produced a moralizer who's also a big stakes gambler, a talk show host with a drug addiction, a VP with a potty-mouth problem, preachers (and speakers of the house) committing adultery, and anti-gay remarks to campaign crowds, and now add Arnold's sexist comments to that list.

Yet Janet's boob shows up on TV and suddenly the world is about to end. Oh and they were riding Kerry for saying the 'F' word only a few months ago? Yeah, politics as usual. Like they say, you don't want to see how sausage or politics is made! :eek:

[IJ Reilly]

FWIW, the Governor was officially unrepentant today.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-arnold19jul19,1,6902000.story

The "girlie men" comments — which Schwarzenegger borrowed from an old "Saturday Night Live" routine that poked fun at him — had drawn rebukes from Democrats and female activists who said the phrase was sexist and demeaning.

Stutzman called the reaction overblown and said that Schwarzenegger saw no need to either apologize or repeat it Sunday. "I think everyone heard it pretty clear yesterday," he said.

Now I'm left trying to digest the phase "Democrats and female activists." Thanks a lot, LA Times.

[mischief]

It bothers me to no end the kind of pussyfooting that goes on in American politics. There's such venom in the adds already I'd be more comfortable if these guys'd actually have the cojones to be cussing each other out in person rather than inferrence character assassination voicovers with images of crying children, Hitler, etc.

Have any of you ever watched the Canadian or British version of CSPAN? The House of Commons can get pretty damn rowdy. I think it's a measure of how surreal Politics is for the average American that there's not only a double standard (one for Dem. "Intellectuals" and one for Repub. "Cowboys") but there's an unreasonable expectation that these fops are somehow greater than ourselves.

Newsflash: In a government that's supposed to be "By The People and For The People" The politicians SHOULD NEVER BE AN ELITE OF ANY KIND.

[mischief]

I don't see much of what you call pussyfooting in American politics. What I do see are lies, misrepresentations and deceptions being used to gain advantage and to discredit political opponents. If politicians want to scream until they're hoarse about the actual issues we face, even at each other, then more power to them. But name-calling? That belongs on a schoolyard, if it belongs anywhere at all. I don't understand why you seem to put a premium on small-mindedness.


That's entirely not the point I was trying to make. I was trying to get across that small-mindedness is far more common than you would guess, both in Politicians and in the population at large.

I just feel that the format of "politically correct" language detracts from our ability to really see each other for who we are. As offensive as it may be to some for Schwartzenegger to be taunting lawmakers with an SNL skit it's a far more honest and forthright representation of what's in his head.

I qualify Pussyfooting as all this crap we see in political propoganda during election years in which an unidentifyable voice gives nasty opinions over vdeo clips cut to demonize this or that candidate or party.

I feel that if you're going to be an ass you should do so directly and with your own mouth. There's less honor in hiding behind the trappings of acceptable language and conduct than in honestly making a fool of yourself.

[IJ Reilly]

Believe me, I don't underestimate the ubiquity of small-mindedness. It's a powerful force in American life in general (and elsewhere, I presume).

If it's honesty you seek, then I suppose you've found it in Schwarzenegger. With remarks of this kind, he captures his own personality and predilections better than any SNL skit ever could.

I'm still puzzled by your reference to "elites." Are you saying that Schwarzenegger isn't one of them?

[mischief]

I'm still puzzled by your reference to "elites." Are you saying that Schwarzenegger isn't one of them?

Touche.

Mr. Schwartzenegger certainly wants to be in this Elite. He even married into what he considered to be a political meal-ticket family.

However. The Elite I was referring to is a construct... a form of Urban Legend that is perpetuated and cultivated by a pervasive moral rhetoric in American culture. There seems to be a subconcious need for a ruling class... an ethically superior breed of humans that govern by divine right of their moral fortitude. Personally I find the concept nauseating.

In short: There is no real Elite but it certainly seems that the American Public wants one... even if they never openly admit it. As a consequence our Public officials couch their derisive behaviour in moralist pretense very bit as false as their moral superiority.

[zimv20]

mischief -

the problem i see w/ the "honest soundbite" is that people may vote based on it (do "talking tough" and "putting people in their places" actually solve real problems?). i'm the idiot idealist who thinks voting should be done on the issues.

the insult-fest-as-entertainment is why i think most sitcoms blow chunks. it's not an attribute which should be rewarded at the polls, imo.

[IJ Reilly]

Hmm. We're onto something quite interesting here.

To my way of thinking, Schwarzenegger is a prime example of the brand of elites Americans really hold dear: the celebrity. They are credited for knowing something because they are famous. And the wealthy, of course, who are treated as being approximately as valuable as their bank balances. Schwarzenegger would never have made it to first base politically if he wasn't both of these things. Not only that, it apparently gives him permission to speak like a first-grader without many people being calling him on it. No, just those real elitists, the "female activists."

[mischief]

mischief -

the problem i see w/ the "honest soundbite" is that people may vote based on it (do "talking tough" and "putting people in their places" actually solve real problems?). i'm the idiot idealist who thinks voting should be done on the issues.

the insult-fest-as-entertainment is why i think most sitcoms blow chunks. it's not an attribute which should be rewarded at the polls, imo.

I see this as a seperate arguement from whether or not "The Issues" are being discussed. I see this as a discussion whether the format of political expression means more than the content. Apparently it does to a lot of folks.

Had Schwartzenegger used more standardized, polite language to level the same insults no one would have cared.

What's bothering me is that the "Issues" have been lost, quite consistently, in the discussions about Politicians. We argue over whether it was appropriate to use such insensetive language or discuss Kerry's wife fussing for 3 seconds over her son at a photo shoot.

I take issue with the fact that if you go out and dig, you'll find more discussions about appearances and percieved moral fortitude than on any political stance. American society would rather compare Kerry and Bush on HAIR than on The Issues because, frankly The Issues have been lost in all the put-on, made-for-TV soundbites and oh-so-politically-correct slander that's slung about.

I take issue with the presumption that, because I prefer Public Officials to have the courage to say what they mean and what they feel from the gut to a group of sanitized, backbiting fakes I must (obviously) prefer cruder expressions of discourse.

[mischief]

Hmm. We're onto something quite interesting here.

To my way of thinking, Schwarzenegger is a prime example of the brand of elites Americans really hold dear: the celebrity. They are credited for knowing something because they are famous. And the wealthy, of course, who are treated as being approximately as valuable as their bank balances. Schwarzenegger would never have made it to first base politically if he wasn't both of these things. Not only that, it apparently gives him permission to speak like a first-grader without many people being calling him on it. No, just those real elitists, the "female activists."

Ah, I see you're catching on.

The value of Schwartzenegger behaving in a non-traditional manner is twofold: We see what's really on his mind. This is a trait that's severely lacking in politics. On the other hand it's likely that it will adversely effect any re-election bid.

What amuses me is that you seem to think I'm defending his behaviour or opinions... I'm not. I'm defending his right to free speech and applauding his candor. Honestly I find his antics amusing because California needs a good shaking up. Folks take their narrow little views entirely too seriously here. Just because those narrow views are politically correct doesn't mean they're the only opinion, nor does it mean that just because he was elected to Public Office he'd suddenly be a better person!

Basically I'd love to see more Politicians speaking "from the hip" rather than calculating every utterance, bodilly emination, scrap of clothing and food purchase for Poll-effect.

[zimv20]

I take issue with the fact that if you go out and dig, you'll find more discussions about appearances and percieved moral fortitude than on any political stance. American society would rather compare Kerry and Bush on HAIR than on The Issues because, frankly The Issues have been lost in all the put-on, made-for-TV soundbites and oh-so-politically-correct slander that's slung about.

i take issue w/ the same. what i'm saying is, if the politicians can't rise above the idiocy, why should the electorate?

i agree that schwarzenegger should be allowed to freely criticize his opponents, but i'd rather he do so on the issues than resort to namecalling. i'd much rather hear daschle, for example, say that bush has ruined america's reputation abroad than call bush an idiot.

[mischief]

i take issue w/ the same. what i'm saying is, if the politicians can't rise above the idiocy, why should the electorate?

i agree that schwarzenegger should be allowed to freely criticize his opponents, but i'd rather he do so on the issues than resort to namecalling. i'd much rather hear daschle, for example, say that bush has ruined america's reputation abroad than call bush an idiot.

The thing is that the Electorate hasn't risen above it... the politicians are descending to the level of the voters. We're seeing the intellectual equilibrium falling to a new low. [Sarcastic Rhetoric/]Do you really think Dubyaw got elected on his sparklingly clean use of the english language and polite conversation?[\Sarcastic Rhetoric]

The name calling is just a red herring though... The point that was being made was the obstructionist and cowardly practices of lawmakers in Sac..

Note: The quote doesn't specify a Party Affiliation. He could be bashing ALL Sacramento legislators that hold things up.

[zimv20]

The name calling is just a red herring though...
it is a symptom, certainly. i figured out my deal -- i want my representatives to be smarter than me, better orators, and more diplomatic.

i guess i'm not managing my expectations very well...

The quote doesn't specify a Party Affiliation. He could be bashing ALL Sacramento legislators that hold things up.
true. though in the LA Times article IJR posted, the journalist referred to Dems.

[IJ Reilly]

Ah, I see you're catching on.

The value of Schwartzenegger behaving in a non-traditional manner is twofold: We see what's really on his mind. This is a trait that's severely lacking in politics. On the other hand it's likely that it will adversely effect any re-election bid.

What amuses me is that you seem to think I'm defending his behaviour or opinions... I'm not. I'm defending his right to free speech and applauding his candor. Honestly I find his antics amusing because California needs a good shaking up. Folks take their narrow little views entirely too seriously here. Just because those narrow views are politically correct doesn't mean they're the only opinion, nor does it mean that just because he was elected to Public Office he'd suddenly be a better person!

Basically I'd love to see more Politicians speaking "from the hip" rather than calculating every utterance, bodilly emination, scrap of clothing and food purchase for Poll-effect.

Fighting? I thought we were discussing... anyhow, I won't know what you're defending until you say so.

I certainly had no illusions that Arnold Schwarzenegger would somehow become a better person once he was elected, and I can see I was correct to guess that he'd be the same bombastic egomaniac as governor as he was when he was a body-building and action film star.

The term "politically correct" is used as a stand-in for a whole variety of arguments. It is essentially a useless term unless you describe what, specifically, you actually mean by it. Are you using it as a cover to excuse all manner of bigotry? I doubt that, so what does it mean to you?

As for entertainment value, I guess we're getting our money's worth there. Unfortunately, I paid for good government, not a movie ticket, so the question I'm trying to answer is whether Schwarzenegger is up to the job of of governing, not whether he can give some of us a good chuckle every so often. For how far that goes, ask the good people of Minnesota.

[alex_ant]

Wow, what a bunch of fairies getting all bent out of shape over this. This is not a complicated issue. To call a man a girly-man is to call him weak. If you look at it purely statistically, females are, on average, weaker than males. It's like when Annika Sorenpoopie or whoever, the best female golfer in female golf, tried to compete with the male golfers and got the crap beat out of her. And that was GOLF! And it's not just that her drives were shorter, she actually sucked at putting too! Just imagine what women would be like in the NFL, or men's track & field, or the NBA. Good lord, they wouldn't stand a chance. This is why sports are segregated. Is that sexist? Of course it's not fashionable or PC to acknowledge that this is true, but it is, like it or not. Does this make women inferior? No, as they've got plenty of other qualities to make up for it, and in many ways they excel where men can't (gymnastics, scuba diving, nude mud wrestling). I give that Austrian Schwartzenheimer **** double mad props for having the couilles to tell it like it is.

[blackfox]

alex...WTF...what does that rant have to do with anything being discussed here...and while I assume you were joking around, bear in mind that many people will not necessarily be amused by what you wrote...

good god man...

[IJ Reilly]

I'm still waiting for someone to explain Swartzenegger's remarks without relying on the "politically correct" cliche. My guess is it can't be done.

[pseudobrit]

The irony that's been missed by the responsible liberal media is that the California GOP is holding up the budget, not the Democrats.

A week ago it was reported as such. Now it's being reported the other way around. Arnold's guise worked beautifully.

Media = suckers.

[mischief]

Fighting? I thought we were discussing... anyhow, I won't know what you're defending until you say so.

I certainly had no illusions that Arnold Schwarzenegger would somehow become a better person once he was elected, and I can see I was correct to guess that he'd be the same bombastic egomaniac as governor as he was when he was a body-building and action film star.

The term "politically correct" is used as a stand-in for a whole variety of arguments. It is essentially a useless term unless you describe what, specifically, you actually mean by it. Are you using it as a cover to excuse all manner of bigotry? I doubt that, so what does it mean to you?

As for entertainment value, I guess we're getting our money's worth there. Unfortunately, I paid for good government, not a movie ticket, so the question I'm trying to answer is whether Schwarzenegger is up to the job of of governing, not whether he can give some of us a good chuckle every so often. For how far that goes, ask the good people of Minnesota.

He's up to the job alright... He's made it eminently clear how screwed this state is. Both with his very presence in the Governor's seat and with the lengths he's had to go to to get things moving. He's exactly what this state needs: A political laxative. California has developped a fatal case of fiscal constipation. What we're seeing is the side effects of a powerful purging effect. Sure, our political rectum will be sore for a few years but the poop will flow better for it. Can you tell I'm kidding yet??

I don't like his policies or the fact that he ran as a Republican. I do like that he's willing to go to extremes to get things rolling again. Sacramento has become infested with political dead wood. There's nothing quite like a good forest fire for cleaning out such dangerous and volatile crap. I think in the short term his policies and approach will be incredibly foolhardy and destructive but I also believe that the rebuilding that follows will make for an overall better government.

As to his behaviour: You get what you pay for. He's the same guy he was as an actor. If the voters are appalled that he hasn't changed it's nobody's fault but their own. Personally, I voted for him because I knew the ****storm would not only be entertaining but EXACTLY what the sheltered, pampered residents and officials in this state need. The rest of the country is far more like Ahnold than Californians want to believe and if we're to survive as the economic and cultural Mecca we've always been we have to acknoledge (dammit: sp?) that we live in a calous, jingoistic, isolationist, often fundamentalist, puritain counrty with a lot to learn about respect and courtesy.

I like Ahnold because he is EXACTLY what Californians like to think doesn't exist in THEIR State.

Wake up folks. This sort of calous, genuinely ignorant behaviour reflects the general populace far better than kinder, gentler, meeker Grey Davis.

I think as incredibly wonderful as John Kennedy was, he did the Nation a disservice: He made us all convinced that we're being watched over by a body of men better than ourselves.

My beef with all this hoopla is simply that without substance polite discourse is just pretty but meaningless garbage. Without Grace and tact the use of even the most appropriate language descends into the same schoolyard idiocy, it just sounds better. I see no difference between the Republican Party proposing a bill in the Senate based on Homophobia and religious fundamentalism and Ahnold uttering the same crap as common language rhetoric.

I find it highly alarming that you do see a difference IJ. The difference exists only in the makeup of the language used. As far as appropriate behaviour I'm MORE offended that this late in our country's development we're allowing such deeply prejudiced views to present themselves as proposed LAW. I think in light of that, Ahnold's comments seem pretty harmless. He's not proposing law, he's taunting HIS OWN PARTY!!! The Republicans just have the good sense to keep their heads down because they've learned that the Dems in this state can be relied upon to scream their heads off if you so much as imply that someone once told an off-colour joke!

Does that answer your inquiry regarding PC language? I can break it down further if you prefer.

As to my comment on "Fighting two battles". I apologize for the off colour nature of the implication that an arguement is not only a logica process designed to estabish a proposition but is also a confrontation-based eliminative process involving a certain amount of necessary conflict. :rolleyes:

Pardon me if I seem a little exhasperated. I'm defending the concept that any Government is ruled by people. The quality of a representational Government's officials is only ever that of the average citizen. No matter how well trained you make a chimp he'll still poop in his hand and throw it at you under stress.

There are no perfect people and as such there are no perfect politicians. I find it remarkably telling that you're more concerned with the Governator using a mild homophobic slur than with it's original use in SNL. I repeat: We cannot hold our representatives to a higher standard than ourselves if we expect a representative government. To do otherwise is a dangerous hipocrisy indeed because it allows our officials to screw us all the harder because they seem so polite about it on the surface.

I can't expect anything else though... this country was a hair's breadth from becoming a Monarchy supported wholeheartedly by a large portion of the population. Had it not been for good and farsighted folks like John Adams we'd be in a far worse position.

[IJ Reilly]

Whoa there pardner. You've pushed out in so many directions I hardly know where to begin. First, I thought I made it very clear that I was not one who expected Schwartzenegger to be a better person as governor than he was as a Hollywood celeb. No, he's the same ol' misanthrope. The voters, or at least those who weren't caught up in all the hype and hoopla, knew this before the election, but were prepared to avert their eyes.

My objections to Schwartzenegger's finely tuned rhetoric are twofold. First, it's just plain childish. I don't care if his schoolyard approach does appeal to a certain element in American society or not. It's still dumb. Those are the limits of my offense. Second, I share your view that California is screwed up, and something needed to be done to shake it up. Not that I necessarily thought Schwartzenegger was the man for that job (Grey by name and by nature Davis certainly wasn't), but I hoped he would be, despite the fact that I couldn't hold my nose tightly enough to vote for the man. But the proof here is in the pudding. Schwartzenegger evidently thought his juvenile prattling would break the logjam over the budget. Has it worked? No, the leadership in the Legislature is snorting at him derisively, which isn't exactly progress, is it?

Just like Jesse Ventura, Schwartzenegger seems to believe that everybody should sit up and pay attention to him, just because he's a somebody from somewhere. Well, like Ventura, Schwartzenegger is learning (I hope) that the state is bigger (and certainly more complicated) than he is, and it will take more than taunting your opponents to make it governable.

You're pardoned for being exasperated. Please don't think this feeling is exclusive to you.

[mischief]

I just prefer honestly childish behaviour to seemingly polite, insidiously carefully phrased sophomoric behaviour. I find it hard to believe that Schwartzenegger is somehow worse in his colourful honesty than others are in their misleading piety.

I want to know why you seem to seriously expect our representatives to be any better than the society that produces them. I see that position as dangerously dilusional. If that's not you, I appologize... it's a pet peeve of mine that in a time when realistic and critical views of our government are so critical we're attacking one of the few politicians we can readily see for who and what they are. There are bigger fish to fry with much better camoflauge, why waste time with the newcommer?

[IJ Reilly]

You're entitled to your preferences, but I think at some point it becomes incumbent on you to demonstrate how your preferred political style produces better results. I think the evidence on the table suggests that it doesn't. I think you've also created a convenient but false dichotomy by suggesting that the two alternatives are honest stupidity and false piety. I don't think this is a defensible proposition, but you're welcome to try.

Or maybe, having given up on the state actually being run responsibly, you've opted for the better entertainment value. I'll grant you that Schwartzenegger is more entertaining than Davis. He is after all an entertainer by trade. Now he has to be a governor, a much tougher role. I'll be grading him on that performance, if you don't mind.

As to your other challenge, I don't necessarily believe that our politicians have to be better than the people they represent. Then again, not every man, or even the average one, is a misanthrope. I'm not going to dwell on this or any other personality trait Schwartzenegger happens to have, but if he's going to try to use it as a political tool, then he deserves to be called on it. It reeks, plain and simple.

[mischief]

The world isn't that two sided. If you require that I couch my arguements accordingly I shall do so:

Of those politicians that hold views based on fear, ignorance and bigotry I prefer the ones that are up front about it. It's less cowardly. It's possible to admire even a tyrant for their audacity alone.

I've pretty much given up on the incremental betterment of society through the election of better than average citizens to legislative status. I think that one of many ways in which the process can be improved is by electing officials that are no better than those they represent. Ahnold represents rich, ignorant Republican businessmen. All the better that it's patently obvious that he's one of them.

The state hasn't been run responsibly since the mid seventies. I think that bringing attention to the kind of decisions made by the voters in this manner is a step in the right direction. I believe that Californians have been complacent about their own responsibility in watchdogging their own governance. I think that the media hype will raise awareness among voters and perhaps better decisions will be made in the next few election cycles as a result.

I also strongly believe that Californians are FAR too swayed by style over substance politicking.

If you want to see my policy views you can find them quite easily by digging into other discussions on politics in this forum and back into the archives. I thin you might be surprised at what you find.

BTW: You don't know more than 1 tiny slice of my voting record or politics so please don't presume you know my politics based on this one discussion. Just because I feel that a little chaos is good for the system once in a while doesn't make me a right-wing redneck.

[IJ Reilly]

The world isn't that two sided.

I was responding to your comment,

I find it hard to believe that Schwartzenegger is somehow worse in his colourful honesty than others are in their misleading piety.

This suggests only two choices, both unappealing.

As should be clear, we agree that the state is run poorly. I think where we don't agree is in whether shaking the box really hard and turning it over to see how the pieces have broken is a solution.

Your reference to "style over substance" is ironic, given the way Schwartzenegger ran and was elected almost entirely on his celebrity. Very little substance was to be found anywhere near his campaign.

If you read back, you'll find that I've made absolutely no assumptions about your views on anything but the one we're discussing now. Your ideas are interesting, and I think we could have a good conversation about them if you'd just put away the pointy sticks.

[zimv20]

I think we could have a good conversation about them if you'd just put away the pointy sticks.
...and release the tiger!

[ethernet76]

You have to look at how messed up California is. For having no political experience prior to being the govenator he's doing extremely well.

Granted Bustamonte would have probably been a much better candidate, he hasn't really done anything extremely stupid.

The point for this arguement should be, was he joking or not. A line pulled from an SNL bit can only be taken so seriously.

Talk about real issues like the Secretary of Education calling the largest teachers union a terrorist organization for not backing the No Child Left Behind act.

The only reason this is getting any attention at all is because there isn't anything else to report on right now. With a lull in the current Decision 2004 coverage, a hotshot republican governor in a solidly blue state making comments that might offend the most sensitive of the gay population is going to receive coverage.

/and please keep replies short, I don't like reading 1000 word replies.

[Neserk]

Arnold is the biggest Joke since the Minnesota Gov who is an ex-wrestler. The main reason Ca is a "mess" is Enron and Bush!

[mactastic]

Arnold is the biggest Joke since the Minnesota Gov who is an ex-wrestler. The main reason Ca is a "mess" is Enron and Bush!

Haha, no that's not quite true. While Bush could certainly do more to assist states, California has long had a problem with the gap between what the people say they want to have in services, and what they want to pay in taxes. And since California is in the small group of states that has a citizen ballot referendum, and since that process has now been co-opted by special interests who are now able to bypass the legislature (which I believe is how most states put things to popular vote) these interests that range from kick-out-all-the-illegals to bond-measures-for-everything to no-bond-measures-for-anyone can pay for the signature gatherers to collect the number required and it's on the ballot. No matter whether it has a snowball's chance in H-E-double-hockey-sticks of passing constitutional muster, it's still on the ballot. Immediate legal challenges from the losing party are basically a given. And that's just one of California's many problems.

Another, which is a result of the previously mentioned ballot process, is Prop 13. This is the third rail of California politics. Death to anyone who grabs hold of it and suggests a change.

Because of the ballot process, Californians have managed to vote for both high levels of spending AND low levels of taxes. Bridging that gap has long been a vexing problem. In boom times it's easy, but in slim times it's a disaster waiting to happen.

[alex_ant]

California. What a disaster. Why won't it just break off into the ocean already? Maybe we'll get lucky and it will sink.

[mactastic]

California. What a disaster. Why won't it just break off into the ocean already? Maybe we'll get lucky and it will sink.

I don't know how lucky you'll feel when 1/6th of the US economy sinks...

[blackfox]

I don't know how lucky you'll feel when 1/6th of the US economy sinks...
Quite an ironic statement considering the current Administrations in power...

[Neserk]

California. What a disaster. Why won't it just break off into the ocean already? Maybe we'll get lucky and it will sink.


HEY! :mad: CA is the greatest place in the US!

[zimv20]

California. What a disaster. Why won't it just break off into the ocean already? Maybe we'll get lucky and it will sink.
troll alert

[vniow]

troll alert

Nah, just sarcasm.

[mactastic]

Quite an ironic statement considering the current Administrations in power...

OK, how about when ANOTHER 1/6th of the economy goes? :p

[Taft]

California. What a disaster. Why won't it just break off into the ocean already? Maybe we'll get lucky and it will sink.

[Edit: this should have been internal dialog. My apologies.]

Taft

[mischief]

For a dose of broader context. A fair portion of the background for my exhasperation at folks getting so bent out of shape over Ahnold's remarks is the very governmental morass you described so concisely. Those are the laws, legislators and corporate sell-outs I was referring to as "Politically Correct Garbage". Those laws and policies were enacted in a very polite way with the result of doing very impolite things to a lot of people. Duplicitous, cowardly and dispiccable. I'd really rather that (ex.) the legislators that passed Prop 13 had just said out front "We're screwing the following people in order to gain short term political bennefits."

[IJ Reilly]

The legislature didn't pass Prop 13. Quite to the contrary. It was cooked up by Howard Jarvis and Paul Gann and adopted by the voters, in response to a legislature that refused to address the problem of soaring property taxes. In fact alternatives were being discussed and debated in Sacramento even as Jarvis and Gann were collecting signatures for their initiative, but the legislature couldn't get its act together to pass anything until it was far too late in the game to stop the "taxpayer revolt" freight train.

[alex_ant]

I don't know how lucky you'll feel when 1/6th of the US economy sinks...
as long as it's not my 1/6th

[mactastic]

For a dose of broader context. A fair portion of the background for my exhasperation at folks getting so bent out of shape over Ahnold's remarks is the very governmental morass you described so concisely. Those are the laws, legislators and corporate sell-outs I was referring to as "Politically Correct Garbage". Those laws and policies were enacted in a very polite way with the result of doing very impolite things to a lot of people. Duplicitous, cowardly and dispiccable. I'd really rather that (ex.) the legislators that passed Prop 13 had just said out front "We're screwing the following people in order to gain short term political bennefits."

While I would agree that the California legislature shouldn't be given a standing ovation at the next "Good Government" awards, my post was in regards to the problems caused by the people themselves. As IJ pointed out, the legislators were not responsible for the passage of Prop 13. That was the people. Well, the people with the help of special interests. And contrary to what you seem to believe, the recall provision and the citizen initiative process were not enacted with the idea of screwing the populace with it. People found ways to screw the populace with those rules, but they were an attempt at progressive reform. Imperfect, and in need of an update these days to try and forstall the corporate and other wealthy interests that currently can do an end run around the legislature.

Do you have any idea how much of California's budget is actually considered 'discretionary spending' that the legislature has direct control over?

[acdninjapan]

It bothers me to no end the kind of pussyfooting that goes on in American politics. There's such venom in the adds already I'd be more comfortable if these guys'd actually have the cojones to be cussing each other out in person rather than inferrence character assassination voicovers with images of crying children, Hitler, etc.

Have any of you ever watched the Canadian or British version of CSPAN? The House of Commons can get pretty damn rowdy. I think it's a measure of how surreal Politics is for the average American that there's not only a double standard (one for Dem. "Intellectuals" and one for Repub. "Cowboys") but there's an unreasonable expectation that these fops are somehow greater than ourselves.

Newsflash: In a government that's supposed to be "By The People and For The People" The politicians SHOULD NEVER BE AN ELITE OF ANY KIND.

Yes, the Canadians have had several PM's who were masters of the four letter word. Pierre Elliott Trudeau was often at his best calling political opponents "Goddamn Americans" Just goes to show you that north of the 49th parallel they love to hate the yanks.

[acdninjapan]

I'm still waiting for someone to explain Swartzenegger's remarks without relying on the "politically correct" cliche. My guess is it can't be done.

I would guess from these remarks that Schwartzchan is upset with the lack of progress towards getting the budget passed. He didn't as far as I can tell specify Democrats or Republicans as the culprits, in fact while in Japan to promote T3 he mentioned off the record that he was unhappy with some of the leaders of the Republican party–could that be GWB? Personally, I don't know what his actual allegiances are concerning Bush and Cheny, it could be that he isn't willing to give them the time of day.

As for the state, California is the American version of Japan. We are in terrible shape here in Tokyo and the current government will not make the hard choices to correct the problems. Seems like your last governor had a lot in common with PM Koizumi. Maybe Ahnold has more in common with Shintaro Ishihara.

[mischief]

I'll go Borgspeak to see if that helps...

Feelings are Irrellevant.

Parties are Irrellevant.

Boondoggles are Irrellevant.

Porkbarrell Politicking is Irrellevant.

Only Californian laseis faire (sp?) approach to their representation/law, the fact that Ahnold most likeley meant REPUBLICAN girlie-boys, and the fact that Dems are easily baited are relevant.

All else is noise.

Is that clear enough?

[IJ Reilly]

Is that clear enough?

As Sacramento River mud.

[mischief]

As Sacramento River mud.

Hard to get anything but mud out of a river so devoid of actual flow. So I suppose the River is a good metaphor fo the current state of California politics:

Through horrendous mismanagement of resources and public concern falling squarely on unresearched, short term self interest paired with vague-in-direction-but-ultra-specific-in-form interest in protocol we have a river (State Government) with no actual water (Money/Due Process) that's well protected by signage (well meaning but completely ineffectual legislation) and officially protected ( lots of Legislative verbage about how legislative verbage is supposed to work) though all the actual water (money) was routed away to businesses long ago, leaving nothing for us or the Salmon.

So long and thanks for all the fish....

[IJ Reilly]

Hard to get anything but mud out of a river so devoid of actual flow. So I suppose the River is a good metaphor fo the current state of California politics:

Through horrendous mismanagement of resources and public concern falling squarely on unresearched, short term self interest paired with vague-in-direction-but-ultra-specific-in-form interest in protocol we have a river (State Government) with no actual water (Money/Due Process) that's well protected by signage (well meaning but completely ineffectual legislation) and officially protected ( lots of Legislative verbage about how legislative verbage is supposed to work) though all the actual water (money) was routed away to businesses long ago, leaving nothing for us or the Salmon.

So long and thanks for all the fish....

That's great, but what's the meta for? :)

[mischief]

That's great, but what's the meta for? :)

The Meta Phor are strange buglike Aliens that invaded from obsolete Mac games, certain opensource files and the minds of hardcore Halo plotjunkies. The Meta Phor have been working to undermine American society for years through a campaign of subtle mnemonic devices in computer software. The takeover of Bungie by M$ was a Meta Phor plot designed to get their insideous message into the Windows sourcecode. The Meta Phor have only one goal in mind: Getting Americans so distracted with the form of Politics that we forget the function.

[acdninjapan]

The Meta Phor are strange buglike Aliens that invaded from obsolete Mac games, certain opensource files and the minds of hardcore Halo plotjunkies. The Meta Phor have been working to undermine American society for years through a campaign of subtle mnemonic devices in computer software. The takeover of Bungie by M$ was a Meta Phor plot designed to get their insideous message into the Windows sourcecode. The Meta Phor have only one goal in mind: Getting Americans so distracted with the form of Politics that we forget the function.

Ah Sooooo! Naruhodo!<"I see!" said the Japanese blindman>