Interracial Couple in Louisiana denied Marriage License

[Lord Blackadder]

Is anyone shocked that this happened in the deep south? (http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/10/16/louisiana.interracial.marriage/index.html) :rolleyes:

The ghost of Jim Crow rises once again.

[OllyW]

He's not really racist, he even lets black people use his bathroom! :rolleyes:

He said he had "piles and piles of black friends" but just did not believe in "mixing the races".
"They come to my home, I marry them, they use my bathroom. I treat them just like everyone else," he said. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8310509.stm)

[Lord Blackadder]

That was the most ridiculous part...of course he neglected to mention whether he has separate "colored" and "white" bathrooms. :rolleyes:

[Rt&Dzine]

Is it really still that segregated down there?

[Don't panic]

it actually is quite shocking.

[NT1440]

Ah, the classic Maude Flanders defense. :rolleyes:

People like this make me sick to my stomach.

[yg17]

I wasn't aware we were still living in the 1950s.

[Signal-11]

Is it really still that segregated down there?

It's actually much worse than you might think. I spent a significant amount of time working for the American Red Cross in the rural south, along the border or Louisiana and Texas, Alabama and parts of Mississippi.

There are open Klan towns down there, with churches decorated with Klan iconography. Law enforcement is so openly racist, it was stunning.

So this doesn't surprise me at all. The only thing that surprises me is that he's trying to make the case that he's not a racist.

[nbs2]

What is required to become a justice of the peace in LA and what are the duties of the position?

I'm just wondering if he is a public official or if he is a private individual who has been granted a public license (and what the conditions of the license are). If all he can do is marry people and is authorized to perform marriages upon request and at his discretion - then this is nothing more than a bizzare backwards man in the middle of a generally backwards region of the country. If he is required to sign off on all valid marriage licenses, or otherwise is not entitled to his discretion, then this becomes an issue.

This poses an interesting question - clergy are granted that same authority to conduct marriages. If a priest refused to perform the ceremony for a gay couple in MA, what would the result be? That same couple would not have been denied any right - they could still get married at the courthouse, and having a ceremony performed by the official of your choosing isn't a protected right.

I suppose my base question is - what on earth is a a justice of the peace? I know it isn't what I imagine it is (a guy with a big gun that blows away the bad guys in a John Wayne movie). I think.

[Rt&Dzine]

^^^ I don't know but the article says he is an elected public official.

[abijnk]

This poses an interesting question - clergy are granted that same authority to conduct marriages. If a priest refused to perform the ceremony for a gay couple in MA, what would the result be? That same couple would not have been denied any right - they could still get married at the courthouse, and having a ceremony performed by the official of your choosing isn't a protected right.


This paragraph would be relevant if Bardwell wasn't an elected official. No one is saying that you should be able to choose any official you want, the outrage is that an elected official can't inject his own feelings like this. He was elected to do a job and he isn't doing it. Your hypothetical priest isn't elected to do a job by the general population. Said priest would reserve the right to not perform certain ceremonies, like gay marriages.

[NT1440]

This poses an interesting question - clergy are granted that same authority to conduct marriages. If a priest refused to perform the ceremony for a gay couple in MA, what would the result be? That same couple would not have been denied any right - they could still get married at the courthouse, and having a ceremony performed by the official of your choosing isn't a protected right.

I

Do clergymen approve and sign the actual marriage license? (honest question)

[Rt&Dzine]

The JP claims:

Bardwell said a justice of the peace is not required to conduct a marriage ceremony and is at liberty to recuse himself “from a marriage or anything else.”


To answer NT1440

The license fee is $35, and the license must be signed within the State of Louisiana. Once it is signed by the minister, JP or judge, the original is returned to the clerk’s office. A certified copy is made and sent to the couple, and the original is put on file.

http://www.hammondstar.com/articles/2009/10/16/top_stories/8847.txt

[Gray-Wolf]

The JP can refuse to marry a couple, just like a Christian minister can refuse to marry 2 buddhists, or a Rabbi can refuse to marry 2 taoist. It depends on their convictions.

After all, as the JP noted, he does refer them to another JP that can marry them.

No one is saying that you should be able to choose any official you want, the outrage is that an elected official can't inject his own feelings like this. If this were true, there would be no republicans or democrats in congress. They each act according to what they believe.

[NT1440]

http://www.hammondstar.com/articles/2009/10/16/top_stories/8847.txt

I really don't like that religious figures are involved in state business like that.

[djellison]

He should be struck off, excommunicated, whatever it is to be thrown out of any church duty. That's disgusting behaviour and is fundamentally, totally unacceptable.

[VideoFreek]

The only thing that surprises me is that he's trying to make the case that he's not a racist.Why would that surprise you? This has been pretty much standard operating procedure for racists for a long, long time. The human capacity for rationalization and denial is breathtaking.

I grew up in the Northeast (NY State) mainly in the 70s, and though the South deservedly gets a bad rap for racism, I can assure you that there was PLENTY of racism in the Northeast in those days. There probably still is, though not anymore in the social circles in which I move. My parents were typical--they would always adamantly deny that they were racists, but in fact they were. Like this joker in LA, they always carefully differentiated the few black people they knew (whom they "politely" called "colored people") from all the rest (whom they called every racial slur in the book).

[Dont Hurt Me]

Ignorance will allways be with the human race, lets face it there are people stupid enough to make judgements based on ones skin color,religion and sex. Humans are just stupid,biased and primitive. Its a common theme that replays itself over and over in human history of those that want to tell others how to live their life.

Our Country was founded on live and let live.

[AP_piano295]

The JP can refuse to marry a couple, just like a Christian minister can refuse to marry 2 buddhists, or a Rabbi can refuse to marry 2 taoist. It depends on their convictions.

After all, as the JP noted, he does refer them to another JP that can marry them.

If this were true, there would be no republicans or democrats in congress. They each act according to what they believe.

A JP is not a member of a religious organization they are GOVERNMENT officials and they have no (as in zero) right to discriminate people because of their race.

[Zombie Acorn]

Why would that surprise you? This has been pretty much standard operating procedure for racists for a long, long time. The human capacity for rationalization and denial is breathtaking.

I grew up in the Northeast (NY State) mainly in the 70s, and though the South deservedly gets a bad rap for racism, I can assure you that there was PLENTY of racism in the Northeast in those days. There probably still is, though not anymore in the social circles in which I move. My parents were typical--they would always adamantly deny that they were racists, but in fact they were. Like this joker in LA, they always carefully differentiated the few black people they knew (whom they "politely" called "colored people") from all the rest (whom they called every racial slur in the book).

I think racism has dropped quite a bit in the last 2 generations, really old people tend to be racist still from my observation, their kids maybe a bit, and the newest generation doesn't seem to care as much.

[Signal-11]

Why would that surprise you? This has been pretty much standard operating procedure for racists for a long, long time. The human capacity for rationalization and denial is breathtaking.

I grew up in the Northeast (NY State) mainly in the 70s, and though the South deservedly gets a bad rap for racism, I can assure you that there was PLENTY of racism in the Northeast in those days. There probably still is, though not anymore in the social circles in which I move. My parents were typical--they would always adamantly deny that they were racists, but in fact they were. Like this joker in LA, they always carefully differentiated the few black people they knew (whom they "politely" called "colored people") from all the rest (whom they called every racial slur in the book).

It surprises me because in the deep South, people are openly racist and don't feel a need to justify that racism.

The psychosocial "I'm not a racist, I have black friends" thing is another topic.

[kavika411]

It surprises me because in the deep South, people are openly racist and don't feel a need to justify that racism..

Please, tell us more about people in the deep South.

[Signal-11]

Please, tell us more about people in the deep South.

Sure. Maybe that was an overly broad brush or you didn't read the implicit "some" in front of the people, but as a whole, the deep South is much more racist and blatantly so than most of the rest of the US.

I'm familiar with the specific town where this took place and like I said, it doesn't surprise me in the least.

[VideoFreek]

I think racism has dropped quite a bit in the last 2 generations, really old people tend to be racist still from my observation, their kids maybe a bit, and the newest generation doesn't seem to care as much.I agree. I think it will slowly die out, after a few more generations. The really pernicious thing about racism, though, is how easily it passes from generation to generation. From personal experience, I can attest that when racist views are imprinted on young children, it can take them a LONG time to purge themselves of these views (even if they wish to do so). In my case, while I'd intellectually rejected these attitudes by the time I was in college, I must confess that it took quite a bit longer to erase the involuntary visceral reaction that I would have when, for example, I would encounter a group of African Americans approaching on the street, or when I'd see an interracial couple. Happily, those days are long behind me now.

[FrankieTDouglas]

I find the level of racism amongst humans to be highest in areas that contain diverse groupings of racial/ethnic populations.

In areas where everyone looks the same, no one is obviously racist because race is a non-issue. Dig deeper and you'll find other things that humans create to insure a community divide.

[Dmac77]

...My main concern is for the children."
199223

Don

[Signal-11]

I find the level of racism amongst humans to be highest in areas that contain diverse groupings of racial/ethnic populations.

In areas where everyone looks the same, no one is obviously racist because race is a non-issue. Dig deeper and you'll find other things that humans create to insure a community divide.

Racism takes different forms, depending on the society but as a rebuttal to your idea, take Korea and Japan. By any measure, they are the most ethnically homogeneous countries on earth, yet the level of racism would blow you away.

To add an inverse example, one of the most ethnically diverse slices of the US is the US military. I won't say that there's no racism in the military but one of the unique aspects of military culture is the military brat experience. Compared to the civilian world, there is little to no strong racial (self) segregation in socialization. I had no idea that black kids were supposed to sit at one table, hispanic kids at another, white kids at all the others (where does that put me?) until my first day in civilian secondary school.

[Zombie Acorn]

I find the level of racism amongst humans to be highest in areas that contain diverse groupings of racial/ethnic populations.

In areas where everyone looks the same, no one is obviously racist because race is a non-issue. Dig deeper and you'll find other things that humans create to insure a community divide.

I grew up in a 100% white town, I don't remember anyone ever talking about race. It wasn't until college that I encountered racism and it was fairly obvious that it was wrong without having to be taught anything specifically about it.

Racism takes different forms, depending on the society but as a rebuttal to your idea, take Korea and Japan. By any measure, they are the most ethnically homogeneous countries on earth, yet the level of racism would blow you away.

I had friends from Korea and Japan both and none of them were racist at all (we had a pretty diverse group of friends during college so I think I would have noticed). Once again I think this is something that applies mainly to the older generation in both the US and Asian countries.

[djellison]

I find the level of racism amongst humans to be highest in areas that contain diverse groupings of racial/ethnic populations.

In areas where everyone looks the same, no one is obviously racist because race is a non-issue. Dig deeper and you'll find other things that humans create to insure a community divide.

I have found the exact opposite. I live in Leicester, a city with quite a large Asian population. I have seen no racism here whatsoever.

I spent my late Teens in rural Gloucestershire. Indeed, I worked two summers at a small supermarket - about 20 weeks in total - and did not see a SINGLE non-Caucasian face. Seriously. But the racist jokes, jibes and opinions expressed around a pub in rural Gloucestershire far far exceed anything you would ever hear here in Leicester.

[Signal-11]

I had friends from Korea and Japan both and none of them were racist at all (we had a pretty diverse group of friends during college so I think I would have noticed). Once again I think this is something that applies mainly to the older generation in both the US and Asian countries.

You've obviously never been to Japan and Korea. I also believe it more likely that your Korean/Japanese friends were more likely K/J-Americans, which is different. Even if they were, English speaking international students aren't the same crowd and would give you a limited perspective on the pulse of society.

[Zombie Acorn]

You've obviously never been to Japan and Korea. I also believe it more likely that your Korean/Japanese friends were more likely K/J-Americans, which is different. Even if they were, English speaking international students aren't the same crowd and would give you a limited perspective on the pulse of society.

I helped teach most of them English, they were most definitely natives. :p

I haven't been to Japan or Korea though so you may be right and I may have just found the few who weren't racist.

[Signal-11]

I helped teach most of them English, they were most definitely natives. :p

I haven't been to Japan or Korea though so you may be right and I may have just found the few who weren't racist.

What are they doing in college if they can't speak English?

[NT1440]

What are they doing in college if they can't speak English?

Was that a serious question?

The world doesn't revolve around the english language.

[Zombie Acorn]

What are they doing in college if they can't speak English?

I didn't mean to imply that they didn't know English at all, theres a difference between knowing rudimentary English and then actually conversing, it took a while before they could get by without using the little digital translator books. I imagine they did a lot better than I would have in Japan/Korea/China though, by the time we graduated they were as fluent as anyone else.

[Signal-11]

Was that a serious question?

The world doesn't revolve around the english language.

Yes, it was a serious queston. Foreign students from non English speaking countries applying to US colleges must demonstrate their proficiency in English. You've never heard of the TOEFL?

Anyway, what planet do you live on? Here on planet Earth, the world does revolve around English.

[abijnk]

I find the level of racism amongst humans to be highest in areas that contain diverse groupings of racial/ethnic populations.

In areas where everyone looks the same, no one is obviously racist because race is a non-issue. Dig deeper and you'll find other things that humans create to insure a community divide.

My experience has been exactly the opposite. I grew up in a small town with a VERY predominately white population. Lets just say there is a reason that other races avoided (and still avoid) the town...

[NT1440]

Anyway, what planet do you live on? Here on planet Earth, the world does revolve around English.

Eh, its nice to think your way of things is THE way of doing things isn't it? ;)

[dukebound85]

Eh, its nice to think your way of things is THE way of doing things isn't it? ;)

You do realize that English is the current lingua franca (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingua_franca#English) dont you?

So yes, the world DOES revolve around English whether you agree or not, at least on the global scene and that was what signal was referring to

[Signal-11]

Eh, its nice to think your way of things is THE way of doing things isn't it? ;)

Hey man, if I thought your way was better than my way, I'd be doing it your way.

FWIW, English was my 3rd or 4th language (depending on how I count) and the last one I learned that I speak natively. I speak another couple languages fluently and have working proficiency in handful more. You put fifteen reasonably well educated guys from fifteen different countries from different parts of the world together in one room, the conversation will default to English. It's just the way things are.

[NT1440]

I probably should have put my post in perspective, I was just referring to the fact that english is the worlds 2nd most widespread language. You two are both totally correct in that english is the language that permeates around the world the most.

Any guesses as to how long until population and economics will make that trend head towards Mandarin Chinese? :p

[Signal-11]

I didn't mean to imply that they didn't know English at all, theres a difference between knowing rudimentary English and then actually conversing, it took a while before they could get by without using the little digital translator books. I imagine they did a lot better than I would have in Japan/Korea/China though, by the time we graduated they were as fluent as anyone else.

More likely, they had a reasonable written proficiency but needed to work up their spoken proficiency. Schools here in the states don't take students who can't meet minimum TOEFL scores.

This topic's gone off the rails, but I'll add that Koreans and Japanese as a group are just about the worst at learning new languages.

[Signal-11]

I probably should have put my post in perspective, I was just referring to the fact that english is the worlds 2nd most widespread language. You two are both totally correct in that english is the language that permeates around the world the most.

Any guesses as to how long until population and economics will make that trend head towards Mandarin Chinese? :p

At least a hundred years, if ever.

Mandarin has too many things going against it (ever try typing in Chinese?).

[NT1440]

At least a hundred years, if ever.

Mandarin has too many things going against it (ever try typing in Chinese?).

I don't have enough deskspace for a keyboard like that :p

[dukebound85]

At least a hundred years, if ever.

Mandarin has too many things going against it (ever try typing in Chinese?).

not to mention that its not as spread out as english

chinese is really just limited to china...whereas english is all over the globe in terms of countries that have it be their main language

so until china starts being an imperial power....lol

[NT1440]

so until china starts being an imperial power....lol

So what, 5, 10, 15 years? They basically could destroy us financially if they had reason to.

[hulugu]

The JP can refuse to marry a couple, just like a Christian minister can refuse to marry 2 buddhists, or a Rabbi can refuse to marry 2 taoist. It depends on their convictions.

Nope. As others have pointed out, the Justice of the Peace is a state official and is subject to both state and federal law, including the US Constitution's 14th Amendment as revised by Loving v. Virginia (1967).

As the article pointed out:

"This is a clear violation of constitutional rights and federal and state law. ... Disciplinary action should be taken immediately -- including the revoking of his license," the Republican [Bobby Jindal] governor said...

After all, as the JP noted, he does refer them to another JP that can marry them.

Funny, I don't see that particular out in the Oath of Office (http://www.sos.louisiana.gov/Portals/0/Commissions/pdf/ss-408.pdf) for the Justice of the Peace for Louisiana.

I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support the constitution and laws of the United States and the constitution and laws of this state and that I will faithfully and impartially discharge and perform all the duties incumbent on me as according to the best (Title of Office) of my ability and understanding, so help me God.

[Signal-11]

So what, 5, 10, 15 years? They basically could destroy us financially if they had reason to.

You ever hear that saying that goes something like "when you owe the bank 50 thousand dollars and you can't pay it back, you have a problem. When you owe the bank 50 million dollars, the bank has a problem"?

The others have touched on the lasting effects of imperialism in it's many forms, cultural, economic, military, etc. You can get by in most of the world with a handful of languages, almost all of them European languages from colonial times.

[rhett7660]

Sure. Maybe that was an overly broad brush or you didn't read the implicit "some" in front of the people, but as a whole, the deep South is much more racist and blatantly so than most of the rest of the US.

I'm familiar with the specific town where this took place and like I said, it doesn't surprise me in the least.

You might want to also visit Lakewood Washington.... or parts of Montana, North Dakota and Idaho.

If you ever visit a couple of towns in Northern Montana, you will see little white mail boxes in front of houses. Yup, you guessed it, that is the local White Supremacy Groups news letter and yes it is everywhere. Of course this could of changed over the last ten years, since I haven't been back up to there, but it was very prevalent.

[yg17]

The JP can refuse to marry a couple, just like a Christian minister can refuse to marry 2 buddhists, or a Rabbi can refuse to marry 2 taoist. It depends on their convictions.

After all, as the JP noted, he does refer them to another JP that can marry them.

If this were true, there would be no republicans or democrats in congress. They each act according to what they believe.

The minister and Rabbi aren't state officials.

When what you believe steps on state and federal law, then it's time to find a new job where your beliefs don't step on laws.

[abijnk]

Just got a push notification on my phone that the guy stepped down. Can't find the article... :confused:

[rdowns]

Just got a push notification on my phone that the guy stepped down. Can't find the article... :confused:


http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jy_z-Zo4fvJEf2TK1LCiiPIe9NDwD9BOB3SG1



BATON ROUGE, La. — A Louisiana justice of the peace who refused to marry a couple because the bride was white and groom was black resigned Tuesday.

Keith Bardwell, who is white, quit the post with a one-sentence statement to Louisiana Secretary of State Jay Dardenne and no explanation of his decision: "I do hereby resign the office of Justice of the Peace for the Eighth Ward of Tangipahoa Parish, Louisiana, effective November 3, 2009."
Bardwell refused to perform the ceremony for Beth Humphrey and Terence McKay because they are of different races.

When questioned about his refusal, Bardwell acknowledged he routinely recuses himself from marrying interracial couples because he believes such marriages cause harm to the couples' children. In interviews, he said he refers such couples to other justices of the peace, who then perform the ceremony, which happened in this case.

Humphrey has said she and McKay received their marriage license from the parish clerk of court, where they also received a list of people qualified to perform the ceremony. When she called Bardwell's office to ask about the ceremony on Oct. 6, Humphrey said Bardwell's wife told her that the justice wouldn't sign their marriage license because they were a "mixed couple."

Bardwell didn't immediately return a call for comment Tuesday about his resignation, which followed calls for his ouster from several public officials, including Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal and U.S. Sen. Mary Landrieu.

Humphrey and McKay have filed a federal civil rights lawsuit against Bardwell.