Death Knell for ATV?

[spice weasel]

I'm just looking at the Apple site now and reading up on the new releases (ordered myself a new i7 iMac!) and noticed that the page for the mini now includes a blurb about using it as an entertainment center. Seems like Apple is now pushing people towards getting a mini if they want an HTPC/media extender.

http://www.apple.com/macmini/features.html

What do the rest of you think?

[netdog]

I'll add to your fear.

The new Apple remote released today doesn't list the AppleTV as a supported device.

Yeah, I am concerned. I love my AppleTV and it is basically my portal to watch television.

[spice weasel]

I hadn't really followed the old Mac mini specs, but did the previous versions have just a mini-DisplayPort, or did they include mini-DVI as well? I noticed the new ones have both.

[JonHimself]

..The new Apple remote released today doesn't list the AppleTV as a supported device...

Does say any Apple product released since 2005 with an IR port though, which does include the Apple TV. Hopefully it works.

[OllyW]

I hadn't really followed the old Mac mini specs, but did the previous versions have just a mini-DisplayPort, or did they include mini-DVI as well? I noticed the new ones have both.

They have had them both since the previous update.

[Tilpots]

Not a big fan of the AppleTV, but I wanted to throw in my .02. I don't think it's going away anytime soon because it's the perfect companion to the new Mini Server. If you have multiple TV's, you'd just set the server up to one of your TV's and hook up the AppleTV's to any other TV's you have around the house. The Mini Server would be like the base station for all the AppleTV's. Just a thought...

[Bevz]

The new Apple remote released today doesn't list the AppleTV as a supported device.

I noticed this too... Keeping fingers crossed they don't forget about the ATV..
If they update FrontRow next then it'll be time to worry!

[mohanman]

I highly doubt apple will forget some sort of living room device all together. Appletv, has Itunes, and if you guys have it too, I'm sure you're like me, spending few dollars here and there to rent movies, buy tv shows, music etc.. it makes revenue.. apple won't want that to stop.

Mo

[BoulderBum]

It doesn't make any sense for Apple to abandon the Apple TV. If people want to stream their iTunes video form their computer to their TV, it makes much more sense to spend $230 on a TV-optimized device than $600+ on a general purpose computer that doesn't even have HDMI or component outputs.

At the same time, I'm confident Apple is interested in gaining control of online video the way they control online music, and getting video to the TV is an integral part of any viable video strategy. Part of the reason for Apple's record quarter was the revenue stream that comes from purchases and rentals of TV shows, movies, etc. If they sell Apple TV's, they have a line to a recurring revenue stream via user's living rooms.

I suspect we may see an evolution of the Apple TV. Maybe new hardware that contains features the old hardware doesn't support (much like advancements in the three generations of iPhones), but I think some sort of Apple TV is here to stay.

On a side note, anyone know what came of the month-or-so old report that said the Apple TV software and hardware team were putting in lots of overtime hours?

[spice weasel]

Not a big fan of the AppleTV, but I wanted to throw in my .02. I don't think it's going away anytime soon because it's the perfect companion to the new Mini Server. If you have multiple TV's, you'd just set the server up to one of your TV's and hook up the AppleTV's to any other TV's you have around the house. The Mini Server would be like the base station for all the AppleTV's. Just a thought...

Interesting thought. I hadn't considered this, but it would make for a very nice home server/htpc setup. Expensive, but nice.

[jaw04005]

I’d say it’s premature to call it dead yet. If you believe the other rumors (which you might as well since rumors lately have been spot on), Apple is finishing up a multi-touch “magic” remote control for the Apple TV.

It would make sense that it will ship with the next Apple TV and as an accessory. However, I do expect the new aluminum remote works just fine with the Apple TV.

All it would take is an iTunes Movie or TV Show subscription service to resurrect the Apple TV.

January 2010 - CES Keynote - new Apple TV with 1080p running a custom chip built by PA Semi’s engineers and iTunes Movie/TV Show subscription service. :D I can dream, right?

[yancey47]

There's a podcast put out today - a 30 second preview of the new Twilight movie - that is availbale to download in 1080p in addition to 720, 480, iphone, and ipod sizes. Never seen that in a podcast before. Kinda interesting I thought. Most Likely made more for the new iMacs but still. Tried to watch the 1080p version on the ATV but it wouldn't play. 720 was fine. The optimist in me says an update to the ATV might be coming soon with this 1080 podcast stuff.

by the way - I dont care about twilight.

[JBaughb]

by the way - I dont care about twilight.

Thanks for adding that. I was getting worried.

[Cave Man]

The Apple TV is here to stay. Unless someone figures out how to sell a Mini for $300 or less.

[seamer]

Appletv better hang around, I've just bought two in the last 3 months!

[spencecb]

I would guess one of two things:

Apple is about to kill AppleTV (Apple has been known to kill projects in the past).

or

They have something big on the horizon.

I know those are two general statements, but its true. Apple can not continue to make both the Mac mini and AppleTV and have them both be successful. Especially in light of their recent marketing (ie today) of the Mac mini.

[paduck]

The Apple TV is here to stay. Unless someone figures out how to sell a Mini for $300 or less.

And add an HDMI port and component video output. Say what you will, if you want to hook it up to a TV, you really need those two outputs nowadays...

Not that it would be difficult to add, just that no other Apple product has it yet...

[Cave Man]

Apple can not continue to make both the Mac mini and AppleTV and have them both be successful. Especially in light of their recent marketing (ie today) of the Mac mini.

I don't buy this at all. We have both an Apple TV and my home theater was based upon a 2 gHz Mini for about a year (it's been replaced by a quad-core hackintosh). They serve two different target audiences. Quite frankly, the Mini was really underpowered to serve as a multitasking HTPC. It could to individual things quite nicely, but not multitask AV needs.

[gugy]

I am still hopeful that AppleTV will be updated by first quarter 2010.
I like the MacMini concept for HTPC, I just think is too overkill $$$$ for what most users want.

Give me an AppleTV with 1080p, more power, 7.1 audio and external support for unlimited storage and I am in. Or create a solution that you do not need to have your Mac to stream content. Something locally, either by external HD support by the USB port or support for AEBS/TC.

I just hope Apple is listening to what consumers want. I think they are.

[blackpond]

It's a solid product as is. So long as the one I have doesn't stop working I don't really care if they stop selling them... I got mine and I'm happy with it.

[hitekalex]

Apple can not continue to make both the Mac mini and AppleTV and have them both be successful.

Sorry, but that's nonsense. The two products aren't even close - one is a $229 iTunes media extender.. the other is $600-$1000 computer. I have both products, and they compliment each other rather than compete.

[ipedro]

I posted this in another thread, but it's relevant to this one as well:

Increasing evidence that supports the discontinuation of the tv:

- Introduction of iTunes LP yet no support for where it would make the most sense: on an tv
- Slew of launches today, without even a firmware update to tv
- No reference to tv as supported by the new Apple remote
- Reference of MacMini as an "Entertainment Center".
- Addition of a VESA mount for the new iMac. The 27" iMac could replace a bedroom TV + tv and it could be one in the line of larger iMac's to come

Apple won't give up the living room but I think if we don't see an update (firmware or hardware) within the next quarter, we can call this idea dead.

Either Apple is working very hard on something that will knock our socks off -- which is why it's taking so long for an update that should have come with iTunes 9 -- or they're replacing the tv concept with the Mac Mini or something completely new like collaboration with TV manufacturers, an HDMI/DisplayPort equipped iPod dock or something we haven't thought of.

[SimonGarlick]

Not sure if this is of interest to anyone, but I've just used the Apple Store Chat, on the online store, to speak to an advisor, who had this to say:

Hi, my name is Sophie S. Welcome to Apple!

Hi, I just have a question about the new Apple Remote

Good morning.

How may I assist you today?

I'm happy to assist with that.

Is it compatible with Apple TV?

Yes, it is!

that's great, thanks. Also, are Apple TV's now being shipped with the new updated remote?

Yes, they are.

Great, thanks for your help.

[SimonGarlick]

Ignore my last post, I've just had two different Customer Sales Advisors give me information that contradicts what I was told. Looks like Sophie S. won't make employee of the month this time around...

[spice weasel]

Even though I posed the initial question of this thread - whether Apple's slightly revised marketing of the mini spells the end of the ATV - I actually tend to agree with those who believe that it does not. I think that Apple wants to compete in the home media market, and that the Mac mini is just not the way to do that. It's great for some people, but it is way too expensive and a bit too complicated for the average consumer who just wants a plug-and-play device.

However, I also think that Apple has let the ATV slide for too long. It's a great device, but it's slowly turning into the Hi-Fi in terms of marketing.

With the holidays just around the corner, I'd expect Apple to release something - new software and features at the very least, if not better hardware - in the coming weeks.

I'd also like to see an update to Front Row, something that worked like the current ATV GUI.

[whooleytoo]

It doesn't make any sense for Apple to abandon the Apple TV. If people want to stream their iTunes video form their computer to their TV, it makes much more sense to spend $230 on a TV-optimized device than $600+ on a general purpose computer that doesn't even have HDMI or component outputs.

I'd much prefer to use a mini as my media-extender than the Apple TV. More powerful, and easier to customise/add functionality. The lack of HDMI/components is the one big drawback, though many HDTVs these days feature some kind of PC input so it may not matter that much.

[Cave Man]

I'd much prefer to use a mini as my media-extender than the Apple TV. More powerful, and easier to customise/add functionality.

The biggest problem with the Mini, IMO, is that it only has a single audio-out port. The ATV has three.

[whooleytoo]

The biggest problem with the Mini, IMO, is that it only has a single audio-out port. The ATV has three.

I'm not sure I understand the need for more than one; I'd just plug the mini into my AV receiver, and that's all I'd need.

[Cave Man]

I'm not sure I understand the need for more than one; I'd just plug the mini into my AV receiver, and that's all I'd need.

If you have a TV and a receiver, you have to choose which one and be done. With the Apple TV, we have audio to the TV by HDMI and audio to the receiver by optical. We often don't use the receiver.

[Tilpots]

Would splitting the audio out of the mini degrade the sound substantially?

[Cave Man]

Would splitting the audio out of the mini degrade the sound substantially?

Not really, but then you'd be limited to analog, not digital.

[mhdena]

It's a solid product as is. So long as the one I have doesn't stop working I don't really care if they stop selling them... I got mine and I'm happy with it.

This is exactly how I feel, I originally got mine to play itunes through my home stereo, the movies while not 1080p are ok. If they can get 1080p that will be great.

I now have 2, I don't get why so many think it should be like a swiss army knife and do everything under the sun.

I believe Apple does have there eye on Video content and when they do get to 1080p they will be positioned to dominate.

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/electronic-delivery/digital-hollywood-panelists-discuss-keeping-with-consumers-17355

'Dave Brown, senior manager, Cisco Video Solutions Marketing, said a Cisco study determined by 2013, 90% of broadband traffic will be video streaming, up from 50% in 2003. He said manufacturers that develop the simplest, most easy to use products will be those that succeed, giving the example of Apple's iPhone and iPod, which dominate the smart phone and MP3 player markets, respectively, despite not being the first products to those markets.'

[whooleytoo]

If you have a TV and a receiver, you have to choose which one and be done. With the Apple TV, we have audio to the TV by HDMI and audio to the receiver by optical. We often don't use the receiver.

Fair enough, in that scenario. I use my receiver all the time though (and I suspect a lot of people would either only have a TV, or would use the receiver sound exclusively) so it's not an issue for me.

I was really hoping the new mini would have HDMI though.. pity.

[Cave Man]

This is exactly how I feel, I originally got mine to play itunes through my home stereo, the movies while not 1080p are ok. If they can get 1080p that will be great.

My money's on a single-core ION for a revised Apple TV. That would be the ticket and should come in at ~US$300 with 320 gb hard drive.

[Tilpots]

My money's on a single-core ION for a revised Apple TV. That would be the ticket and should come in at ~US$300 with 320 gb hard drive.

You think we'll get two USB ports so we can use one for and external HDD and the other to stick an Elgato Tuner in there and turn it into a DVR?

I don't, but a guy can dream, right?

[KevinC867]

Fair enough, in that scenario. I use my receiver all the time though (and I suspect a lot of people would either only have a TV, or would use the receiver sound exclusively) so it's not an issue for me.

I was really hoping the new mini would have HDMI though.. pity.

My problem would be that I need BOTH analog and digital outputs going to my receiver. An analog signal is required for the "zone 2" feature for my remote speakers. The digital output is used for everything else. Is there a simple way to get both signals out of the combined analog/optical audio jack on the mini?

[BoulderBum]

I'd much prefer to use a mini as my media-extender than the Apple TV. More powerful, and easier to customise/add functionality. The lack of HDMI/components is the one big drawback, though many HDTVs these days feature some kind of PC input so it may not matter that much.

I'll grant that it can do more, but I contend the interface isn't as streamlined for couch surfing. For one thing, I can control my Apple TV with a universal remote control, including browsing/renting/buying movies & TV shows, YouTube, streaming (not-downloaded) Video Podcasts and Flickr slide shows all through simple 6-button commands.

Front Row is relatively bare by comparison, and a lot of the other Mac functionality is built around the idea of a keyboard/mouse being handy.

I also like the "suggestions" you get at the bottom of the Apple TV screen when viewing video content (e.g. "Viewers Like You Also Purchased...").

In general, the Apple TV and Mac Mini were built around differing ideas of how you'd use them, and it shows, IMO.

[OllyW]

If you have a TV and a receiver, you have to choose which one and be done. With the Apple TV, we have audio to the TV by HDMI and audio to the receiver by optical. We often don't use the receiver.

I've got my Apple TV set up with audio to the TV via HDMI, audio to the AV Receiver via optical and audio to the hi-fi via phono.

Might as well make use of all the outputs. :D

[rickeym]

I do this already with an older mac-min. How does the mini server help? Does it do it better?

Not a big fan of the AppleTV, but I wanted to throw in my .02. I don't think it's going away anytime soon because it's the perfect companion to the new Mini Server. If you have multiple TV's, you'd just set the server up to one of your TV's and hook up the AppleTV's to any other TV's you have around the house. The Mini Server would be like the base station for all the AppleTV's. Just a thought...

[Tilpots]

I do this already with an older mac-min. How does the mini server help? Does it do it better?

No idea. I know, as you mentioned, that any Mini could handle the task, yet this new server does open up some interesting possibilities. I'm no expert on the subject, but it seems you could use it to create your own "cloud." You could be serving media not only around your home, but have access to your files out and about as well. I believe, you can do this with the regular Mini, but running the OSX Server has got to have some advantages in this department.

Anyone smarter than me want to chime in? I'd love to know more about the possibilities of the Server Mini as a "personal cloud" and how it would differ from what HP is offering with their devices.

[iZac]

You'll hear the bells chiming as soon as the mini gets a blu ray drive.

yes yes, bag of hurt etc etc.

[brendon2020]

i really hope we see an update next year, if anything just a 1080i/p version. I really love my appletv.

[Cave Man]

You'll hear the bells chiming as soon as the mini gets a blu ray drive.

I really doubt that will ever happen. The ATV is an iPod for TV.

[LethalWolfe]

You'll hear the bells chiming as soon as the mini gets a blu ray drive.

yes yes, bag of hurt etc etc.
I wouldn't hold my breath. Apple wants you to get all your media via the iTunes store. They don't want you to the competing distribution format known as Blu-ray.


Lethal

[mhdena]

I really doubt that will ever happen. The ATV is an iPod for TV.

This is exactly how I look at it, running my music through my home and bedroom stereos. I ripped over 400 cds into itunes (apple lossless) in the last month and am quite content with my 2 atvs.

I really like the addition they made with the internet radio.

Even if they come up with another one I will not be an early adopter for it:rolleyes:

I have a Pioneer bluray player and a Blockbuster or Netflix at this time is a better option with their through the mail delivery.

At this time being the key words:cool:

[paduck]

You'll hear the bells chiming as soon as the mini gets a blu ray drive.

Apple has been really holding back on the adoption of Blu-ray. I figure they can hold out at least another couple of years. Once there is no real price differentiation between regular DVD and Blu-ray, they'll add a new "Super Dooper Drive" to their product line.

I'm pretty sure that Apple marketing has found that Blu-ray isn't a feature people are screaming for or one that a lack of makes Macs look inferior.

There was an article somewhere about Big New Apple Products that listed key features. The one that really stuck with me was that "it will be missing a feature that everyone considers essential." Which is generally true, but, as the article noted, the product usually sells like hotcakes. I guess the AppleTV is the exception to that.

[godslabrat]

I'm pretty sure that Apple marketing has found that Blu-ray isn't a feature people are screaming for or one that a lack of makes Macs look inferior.


There is logic to what you say, but since Apple is the preferred platform for people working in the video production industry, I can't imagine their reluctance to support BluRay. Despite anything the future might bring, BD is currently the industry standard in delivering prerecorded HD content. Why make it difficult for small-time video pros to put their work onto disc for a client, or for themselves?

It would be as if this were 1997, and Apple said "MP3s are so popular, we don't need to support CD-R drives. CD-R is a bag of hurt." Sure, a lot of people might have agreed with it, but Apple would have still been shafting a huge chunk of their clientèle.

[Thanatoast]

It would be as if this were 1997, and Apple said "MP3s are so popular, we don't need to support CD-R drives. CD-R is a bag of hurt." Sure, a lot of people might have agreed with it, but Apple would have still been shafting a huge chunk of their clientèle.But in 1997 CD's weren't a bag of hurt. If, in 2001 (a closer analogue for our purposes, I think) CD's required special cables, intrusive DRM, expensive hardware and high royalties, they might very well have ditched the CD drive for their iPod.

[godslabrat]

But in 1997 CD's weren't a bag of hurt. If, in 2001 (a closer analogue for our purposes, I think) CD's required special cables, intrusive DRM, expensive hardware and high royalties, they might very well have ditched the CD drive for their iPod.

I admit my comparison was less than perfect, but I stand by my overall point. By refusing to offer support for BD, Apple is basically telling video professionals to convert back to Windows.

[blackpond]

Despite anything the future might bring, BD is currently the industry standard in delivering prerecorded HD content. Why make it difficult for small-time video pros to put their work onto disc for a client, or for themselves?

There are a lot of professional industry standards that don't come pre-configured on Macs. I don't recall ever seeing DLT drives come with a Mac Pro for DVD mastering (sorry, but mastering to a DVD-R for replication is not professional). Correct me if I'm wrong, but any "professional" could simply add an external BD drive if it was required for the project. Or, they could whine about it on MacRumors until Apple finally shipped with blu-ray... but clients may not want to wait that long.

My point is... this isn't a problem for professional content producers. Now, for folks who want to watch blu-ray titles on an iMac or Macbook, that's a different story. Your guess is as good as mine as to why this hasn't happened yet.

[LethalWolfe]

My point is... this isn't a problem for professional content producers. Now, for folks who want to watch blu-ray titles on an iMac or Macbook, that's a different story. Your guess is as good as mine as to why this hasn't happened yet.
Professionals are switching to non-Apple hardware and software for their BR needs but the question is why is Apple leaving all that money on the table? W/DVD Studio Pro Apple helped pioneer desktop DVD authoring yet now they are all but completely ignoring BR authoring. Not everything needs to go to replication either. Corporate, industrial, event, weddings, etc., don't need a run of 1,000 discs but are growing areas for BR.

Like I said in my previous post, IMO Apple sees BR as a competing distribution format to iTunes and they are fine w/the ProApps being collateral damage in this consumer format 'war' they are waging.


Lethal

[GSX]

I think Apple needs to open up the Apple TV and iTunes. Right now it's too limited.

The reason iPods were and are so successful was because people could rip their already owned music CDs and import them into iTunes.

Until Apple allows a way for DVDs to be ripped into iTunes with the same ease of CDs the Apple TV will be a product with a lot of unrealized potential.

For me the best would be if I could rip my DVD collection as fully functional DVDs(I currently use Mac the Ripper to make TS files) and import them into iTunes and then access them via the Apple TV on my TV with all their functions intact.

**Yes I know Handbrake can rip DVDs and import them into iTunes, but a lot of the DVD functionality is lost(unless things have changed); like menus, bonus materials, subtitles, etc.**

If Apple opened up iTunes for DVD ripping I think Apple TV sales would take off.

Unfortunately Apple is too busy trying to appease the TV networks and Hollywood to make it happen. It's too bad. Apple seems to be spinning it's wheels with the Apple TV.

[dynaflash]

ripping cd's and ripping dvd's are two completely different issues.

[LethalWolfe]

ripping cd's and ripping dvd's are two completely different issues.
Not only are CDs and DVDs very different in how they operate but because of the DMCA it violates federal law to rip a DVD.


Lethal

[GSX]

Not only are CDs and DVDs very different in how they operate but because of the DMCA it violates federal law to rip a DVD.


Lethal

Yeah, I know about the whole legal issues.

It's stupid though. I bought the DVD I should be able to play it any way I want.

Where's some consumer protection laws when you need them...

[LethalWolfe]

Yeah, I know about the whole legal issues.

It's stupid though. I bought the DVD I should be able to play it any way I want.

Where's some consumer protection laws when you need them...
Agreed that one should be unrestricted when it comes to playing back media for personal use. Unfortunately the DMCA has so far been upheld by the courts which means 20 years of legal precedent has been tossed out the window.


Lethal