Ronstadt Banned from Aladdin Casino for Pro-Moore Statements

[mactastic]

Why aren't we talking about this? ;)

Link (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-072004ronstadt_lat,1,1452485.story?coll=la-home-headlines)

What the singer said just before the final encore in Las Vegas was the same stage line she has been using to introduce the song "Desperado" around the country since she saw the Moore documentary "Fahrenheit 9/11": "I'll say, I think there's this guy who is a great patriot and I think he loves his country deeply and that he's trying to get the truth out . . . then I say his name is Michael Moore and I've just been to see his fine movie, "Fahrenheit 9/11."

According to press accounts of the Las Vegas show, Ronstadt's comments were met with loud boos, tossed cocktails and defaced concert posters in the lobby. Bill Timmins, president of the Aladdin, was quoted by the Associated Press as saying: "It was a very ugly scene. She praised him [Moore] and all of a sudden all bedlam broke loose." The executive said he didn't allow Ronstadt back in her luxury suite and she was escorted off the property. "As long as I'm here, she's not going to play." Timmins was no longer available to discuss the matter, a casino spokeswoman said.


As Ari Fleischer so succinctly put it, we do indeed need to be careful what we say.

[blackfox]

Three things:

1) Politics can make strange bedfellows...(me and Linda...)
2) Evidently Linda's fan base (such as it is), is not really Left-wing it would seem, perhaps a misjudgement on her part...
3) If she (or anyone) had made pro-Bush (or pro-War) dedications, do you think the same result would've happened? (After all the Casino's official position was that they hire people to entertain, not to espouse political beliefs; hence, her dismissal.)

[Desertrat]

"Bill Timmins, president of the Aladdin," was scared spitless that had he not loudly and publicly run her off, it would be bad PR for the Aladdin. The only thing that matters in Vegas is profit. Not much profit when folks come out from a show all irate, and go down the street to another casino.

I don't really care one way or the other about Ronstadt's political views. However, when one goes for the "fun evening out", hearing serious political stuff can spoil it. There's a time and a place, and she picked the wrong time and the wrong place...

:), 'Rat

[LethalWolfe]

Yeah... pissed off people don't tend to stick around and gamble away their life savings. ;)

The throwing of drinks and defacing/destroying of posters is uncalled for. All that did was create unneeded work for hotel staff. I hate it when people do mindless stuff like that.


Lethal

[davecuse]

"Bill Timmins, president of the Aladdin," was scared spitless that had he not loudly and publicly run her off, it would be bad PR for the Aladdin. The only thing that matters in Vegas is profit. Not much profit when folks come out from a show all irate, and go down the street to another casino.

I don't really care one way or the other about Ronstadt's political views. However, when one goes for the "fun evening out", hearing serious political stuff can spoil it. There's a time and a place, and she picked the wrong time and the wrong place...

:), 'Rat

Exactly, I just want to let it ride!

[3rdpath]

there was a link at another site i visit that had a response from a person who was at the show...i'll post it when i can find it again...but...

the person said that there was an equal amount of cheering and booing after linda's comments. also, the witness said he saw NO drinks being thrown and no posters being ripped down...IOW, no "bedlam" at all. he said there were disgruntled people that were disappointed that linda didn't play much of her old material, just the nelson riddle orchestrated standards.

it sounds like the aladdin is playing "cover your ass". of course, this is the best PR linda's had in years so good on her.

edit:linkypoo (http://www.nationalreview.com/thecorner/04_07_18_corner-archive.asp#036039)

[Durandal7]

there was a link at another site i visit that had a response from a person who was at the show...i'll post it when i can find it again...but...

the person said that there was an equal amount of cheering and booing after linda's comments. also, the witness said he saw NO drinks being thrown and no posters being ripped down...IOW, no "bedlam" at all. he said there were disgruntled people that were disappointed that linda didn't play much of her old material, just the nelson riddle orchestrated standards.

it sounds like the aladdin is playing "cover your ass". of course, this is the best PR linda's had in years so good on her.

edit:linkypoo (http://www.nationalreview.com/thecorner/04_07_18_corner-archive.asp#036039)

It sounds to me like Ronstadt gave a second-rate performance and the Moore comment gave Timmins an excuse to fire her.

[2jaded2care]

Have to agree, she picked the wrong time and place. Or maybe the right time and place, if she really didn't want to perform at that venue again. And she got some PR, albeit maybe not necessarily positive PR. (If PR was her intent, it smacks of desperation.)

I certainly know I could be "let go" or disciplined for making certain political comments to co-workers or customers. Most people have enough tact (or fear) to limit their comments in a work environment -- and most don't have royalties to fall back on...

Why isn't anyone talking about why pop singers don't seem capable of writing or performing songs which express political views anymore? I guess it's easier to pull a switcheroo and attempt to preach to a captive audience which didn't come for the sermon... At least if you write a clever, catchy (even subtle) song, people know what to expect, and politically they can take it or leave it. I mean, I don't agree with the lyrics of "Imagine", but it's still a great song... Seems like the country singers are the only ones who can wrap politics into song nowadays, or at least that's all I hear (and I don't even listen to country). The approach on these songs might be more ham-fisted than the usual clever wordplay, but I think it works in the country genre.

I guess my point is, it's hard for someone to shout "Shut up and sing!" if the message is the song. But I guess songwriting is kinda hard even for songwriters, huh?

(BTW, has anyone ever done a good tribute song to the Columbia space shuttle crew? I'd love to hear one.)

Admittedly I'm out of touch with the music scene, maybe I'm missing some great stuff. All I hear is criminal-behavior-celebrating hip-hop and droning Nirvana knockoffs...

[2jaded2care]

BTW, how exactly would one "shut up and sing"?

Then again, I didn't coin it...

[Desertrat]

Where is Tom Paxton, now that we really need him?

:), 'Rat

[patrick0brien]

Why aren't we talking about this? ;)

-mactastic

Haaah! :D Got me!

Actually, I WAS wondering...

I agree with the others, like Michael Moore himself at the Oscars, there is a proper time and place for everything. Expousing personal views, especially ones that the speaker knows that there are strong feelings about, in a venue not appropriate to it, pisses me off personally.

After all, I'm sure this is why we have this particular dedicated forum, I can speak for you, but I really don't like it when I come across a politically charged discussion in 'Hardware Help'.

So I understand Ronstadt's termination - though I think the boot from premesis was a bit extreme (maybe riot worries ;) )

[Sayhey]

-mactastic

... Expousing personal views, especially ones that the speaker knows that there are strong feelings about, in a venue not appropriate to it, pisses me off personally....

patrick, do you think the Aladdin would boot an entertainer who went on stage and said we have to support our President in the war in Iraq? I don't think so.

[2jaded2care]

Sayhey, I don't think it's fair to compare remarks supporting a President to remarks supporting a controversial and polarizing (searching for a nice term here) gadfly filmmaker. Remarks in support of the commander-in-chief, especially in times of war (whether one personally supports said war or not), are not as controversial IMO. So many other elements are tied into this - patriotism, support for the office of the President (if not the man), etc.

(Not saying such a comment wouldn't trigger a similar response on the other side nowadays, however. Nor that one shouldn't criticize the President.)

Moore, OTOH, is a celebrity, just like Britney.

Well, maybe that's a stretch...

A better comparison would be remarks in support of Sean Hannity or Rush Limbaugh, which would be similarly inappropriate in a mixed-audience setting.

[Sayhey]

Sayhey, I don't think it's fair to compare remarks supporting a President to remarks supporting a controversial and polarizing (searching for a nice term here) gadfly filmmaker. Remarks in support of the commander-in-chief, especially in times of war (whether one personally supports said war or not), are not as controversial IMO. So many other elements are tied into this - patriotism, support for the office of the President (if not the man), etc.

(Not saying such a comment wouldn't trigger a similar response on the other side nowadays, however. Nor that one shouldn't criticize the President.)

Moore, OTOH, is a celebrity, just like Britney.

Well, maybe that's a stretch...

A better comparison would be remarks in support of Sean Hannity or Rush Limbaugh, which would be similarly inappropriate in a mixed-audience setting.

While I'll agree that there are many reasons that go into a person's reactions to criticisms of a President, I don't agree that there is a fundamental difference with expressing support for President or with a prominent critic of a President. The problem is that our society is so polarized by the actions and policies of this administration that we have overreactions to expressions of political positions.

Would I go to a performance of Todd Rundgren and be unable to stand his views to the point of throwing things on stage? If I did I would be pretty stupid; just as the outraged customers at the Aladdin reacted in a stupid and boorish manner.

I also think the owners of the Aladdin can make decisions about who to employ (although depending on her contract, Ronstadt may have a good lawsuit) and patrons of casinos have the right to take those decisions in mind when they decide where to throw away their money.

[patrick0brien]

patrick, do you think the Aladdin would boot an entertainer who went on stage and said we have to support our President in the war in Iraq? I don't think so.

-Sayhey

Perhapse not, but then showing of support is always less combative and hack-raising than disparagement - we see it every day on these boards. It's all about presentation.

But then, I can't speak for Aladdin on this. I, however, do know that my reaction to even a supportive comment would ranckle me if I went to a concert expecting something else. I'd feel used. ("Now that your here and a captive audience, I'm going to take advantage of that and do something your aren't paying me to do.")

I guess I'm particularly sensitive to this sort of thing because of what I do in my job. I spend much of my day trying to keep people's eye on the ball.

[blackfox]

I guess I'm particularly sensitive to this sort of thing because of what I do in my job. I spend much of my day trying to keep people's eye on the ball.
What do you do? Are you a tennis coach?

[IJ Reilly]

Ronstadt is pretty well known for her left of center views, and also for speaking out. I doubt many of her fans in the audience were offended. But this is Vegas we're talking about -- attending a show in Las Vegas isn't about being a fan of the performer, it's about throwing around money like a high-roller and getting smashed. I think it's pretty amusing to think of anyone being offended by anything in Vegas. The outrage expressed by the casino owner has got to win the Irony of the Month award.

[Sayhey]

-Sayhey

Perhapse not, but then showing of support is always less combative and hack-raising than disparagement - we see it every day on these boards. It's all about presentation.

But then, I can't speak for Aladdin on this. I, however, do know that my reaction to even a supportive comment would ranckle me if I went to a concert expecting something else. I'd feel used. ("Now that your here and a captive audience, I'm going to take advantage of that and do something your aren't paying me to do.")

I guess I'm particularly sensitive to this sort of thing because of what I do in my job. I spend much of my day trying to keep people's eye on the ball.

patrick, my point is that either what we have here is a further extension of the Dixie Chicks phenomenon or we have a right-wing Casino owner who can't stand dissent. All of which boils down to a choice between seeing Mr. Timmins as a coward or a thug or both. He may have a right to do what he did, but it sure wasn't something to be admired.

[2jaded2care]

What do you do? Are you a tennis coach?

Trying... not to make... French Quarter joke... argh!

[Desertrat]

You go to certain events, you have certain expectations, right?

George Carlin is a different deal from Lawrence Welk. You're probably be pretty hard put to be surprised at ANYTHING Carlin says. You wouldn't expect political stuff from Welk.

Heck, I once went to a Nascar race, and was startled at a bunch of conservative views from some EmCee guy before the race. I was not there for a bunch of speechifying; I wanted to see the cars race.

Hey, the Dixie Chicks sing real good. Politics? I'm pretty much fed up with political wisdom as accumulated by some 19-year-old...

Ronstadt's like a lot of the old VietNam-era protest crowd: Nobody's paid any attention to them for almost thirty years, and they gotta make up for lost time...

'Rat

[davecuse]

The bottom line is, there's a time and a place for everything. If I started getting political (especially saying anything controversial) with the people I serve I would get canned as well. No one calls tech support for a lesson on who they should vote for, likewise people go to a concert to hear good music (well maybe not this concert) not to be lectured about who they should vote for.

I don't really see the controversy here, she said something controversial that was out of place and she got asked not to come back. It bugs me when celebs get political, just like it bugs me that some people worship celebrity. They are just people who happen to be performers. If I want to get a lesson about life I'll go listen to a lecture from someone who actually deserves my respect.

[Sayhey]

Celebrities and Artists have always used their talents to express their views. If you don't like the views of one in particular, then don't go to their shows. As much as you may not like Ronstadt's views on Moore's film, it is not an excuse to throw things. The people who behaved badly in the audience and the Aladdin ownership are the problem not Linda.

[davecuse]

Celebrities and Artists have always used their talents to express their views. If you don't like the views of one in particular, then don't go to their shows. As much as you may not like Ronstadt's views on Moore's film, it is not an excuse to throw things. The people who behaved badly in the audience and the Aladdin ownership are the problem not Linda.

So if something has "always" been, that automatically makes it right? All I have to say is, change is good.

[Ugg]

So if something has "always" been, that automatically makes it right? All I have to say is, change is good.

Yeah, I agree, the CEOs of Diebold, KBR, FAUX News, etc, etc, should keep their mouths shut. They weren't hired to voice their political views.

[Sayhey]

So if something has "always" been, that automatically makes it right? All I have to say is, change is good.

Should all artists keep their mouths shut or is it ok for some to voice their views and others must keep silent? Because Ronstadt is mainly known as a singer, must she only communicate her ideas through her songs? Should artists only say the things that the majority of the audience feels comfortable with? Nah, I'd rather have folks who make you think. I can take or leave their message, but silencing their political views makes no sense to me.

[IJ Reilly]

Now, there's a thought. Somebody should write a song with lyrics about Moore being a great patriot, and going to see Fahrenheit 9-11. Then Ronstadt could sing it, and nobody would have any complaints. Right?

[usmcdiorio]

First of all, bravo to the theater and to the audience. Celebrities need to focus on doing whatever they do and stop try to be political icons. I agree with the theaters decision to eject her, and ban her from performing again. Infringement of freedom of speech? I don't think so. Last I heard, when your statements cause riots and property damage, the business isn't obligated to be hospitable to you. Let her speak, that's her right, but it's certainly not the Aladdin's responsibilty to give her the venue.

[Sun Baked]

Bill Timmins
President
Aladdin Casino and Hotel
Las Vegas, NV

July 20, 2004

Dear Mr. Timmins:

I understand from the news reports I've read that, after Linda Ronstadt, one of America's greatest singers, dedicated a song to me from your stage on Saturday night, you instructed your security guards to remove her from the Aladdin, which they did.

What country do you live in? Last time I checked, Las Vegas is still in the United States. And in the United States, we have something called "The First Amendment." This constitutional right gives everyone here the right to say whatever they want to say. All Americans hold this right as sacred. Many of our young people put on a uniform and risk their lives to defend it. My film is all about asking the questions that should have been asked before those brave soldiers were sent into harms way.

For you to throw Linda Ronstadt off the premises because she dared to say a few words in support of me and my film, is simply stupid and Un-American. Frankly, I have never heard of such a thing happening. I read that you wouldn't even let her go back up to her room at your hotel! Are you crazy? For crying out loud, it was a song DEDICATION! To "Desperado!" Every American loves that song! Sure, some people didn't like the dedication, and that's their right. But neither they nor you have the right to remove her from your building when all she did was exercise her AMERICAN right to speak her mind.

Of all the things that go on in Las Vegas, this is what creates the need for serious action? What about the other half of the crowd at the Aladdin who, according to the Las Vegas Sun, cheered her when she made her remarks? Did you throw them out, too?

I think you owe Ms. Ronstadt an apology. And I have an idea how you can make it up to her -- and to the millions of Americans you have offended. Invite her back and I'll join her in singing "America the Beautiful" on your stage. Then I will show "Fahrenheit 9/11" free of charge to all your guests and anyone else in Las Vegas who wants to see it.

Mr. Timmins, as the song "Desperado" says -- "Come to your senses!" How can you refuse this offer? I await your reply.

Yours,
Michael Moore
Director, "Fahrenheit 9/11"Doubtful anybody would be willing to take this up as a First Amendment case... and I doubt Bill Timmins is willing to take him up on this, since it would be a political statement/concert.

[amnesiac1984]

There was a good article about this in yesterday's independent. Its very apparent from an external perspective the climate of fear in the united states at the moment. I'm not sure about Linda but other recent celebrity controversies are clearly the work of republican spin doctors. These celebrities have voiced their opinions throughout their lives, so why now is it suddenly seen so offensive? I mean look at the dixie chicks for example. They mentioned it while in London and normally, in this country especially, it would have passed without much comment. But in America all hell broke loose with one station hiring a tractor to crush dixie chicks cds. I mean WTF are you a nation of school children or what? This is politics, its not meant to be taken personally. If everyone is going to get offended every-time they hear an opposing opinion how do you expect to have reasoned debate?

link to independent article (http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=542990)

[davecuse]

Should all artists keep their mouths shut or is it ok for some to voice their views and others must keep silent? Because Ronstadt is mainly known as a singer, must she only communicate her ideas through her songs? Should artists only say the things that the majority of the audience feels comfortable with? Nah, I'd rather have folks who make you think. I can take or leave their message, but silencing their political views makes no sense to me.

I don't think that silencing someone is appropriate by any means. The point I am trying to convey is that there is a time and a place for everything. A concert is not a place to be lectured on politics. As I said earlier if any of us were to start lecturing on anything political on the job especially where it affects the customer, there would be a pink slip showing up pretty quick.

[Desertrat]

Sun Baked, the First Amendment only restrains government.

On your property you have the right to restrain my speech to your heart's content...

'Rat

[2jaded2care]

I don't like that song anyway. Guess I'm not a legitimate 'Mercun according to Moore, the new definer of the Constitution.

Thanks 'Rat for the comment. Somehow I don't think that Rep hecklers would be welcomed to exercise their constitutional right to "say whatever they want to say" inside the DNC convention auditorium, with the audience being told to take it or leave it...

[IJ Reilly]

There was a good article about this in yesterday's independent. Its very apparent from an external perspective the climate of fear in the united states at the moment. I'm not sure about Linda but other recent celebrity controversies are clearly the work of republican spin doctors. These celebrities have voiced their opinions throughout their lives, so why now is it suddenly seen so offensive? I mean look at the dixie chicks for example. They mentioned it while in London and normally, in this country especially, it would have passed without much comment. But in America all hell broke loose with one station hiring a tractor to crush dixie chicks cds. I mean WTF are you a nation of school children or what? This is politics, its not meant to be taken personally. If everyone is going to get offended every-time they hear an opposing opinion how do you expect to have reasoned debate?

You've put your finger on the real issue. It is very troubling to me that Americans have such a difficult time seeing that this isn't a "free speech" issue, it's a question of too many people being unable to stomach viewpoints which are not their own. It is, as you say, an immature attitude and not conducive to debate. I have to point out once again the irony of this happening in Sin City. Prostitution? Great! Gambling? That's why we're here. Booze flowing like water? Of course! Organized crime? They need somewhere to invest their money legally. Political views? You'll be escorted to the city limits.

Hey, even Vegas has to have some standards.

[Sayhey]

I just heard Moore on the TV and he stated the new owners of the Aladdin have apologized to Ronstadt and asked her to come back. If true, I'll have to call off my personal boycott of a casino I've never been to and still have no plans to visit. ;)

[Sayhey]

Add this view to the mix, it makes a lot of sense to me.

Something went awry at the Aladdin Hotel in Las Vegas last Saturday night. Linda Ronstadt did what she has done at several concerts across the country this summer. She dedicated the song "Desperado"- an encore - to Michael Moore and urged members of the audience to go see his new movie, "Fahrenheit 9/11."

Elsewhere, audiences have reacted to the mention of Mr. Moore by cheering, booing, walking out and sometimes glaring at one another in parking lots. At the Aladdin, a few audience members tore down posters, threw drinks and demanded their money back. According to one person who was present - William Timmins, the Aladdin's president - it was "a very ugly scene." Mr. Timmins promptly made it even uglier. He had Ms. Ronstadt ejected from the premises.

This behavior assumes that Ms. Ronstadt had no right to express a political opinion from the stage. It implies - for some members of the audience at least - that there is a philosophical contract that says an artist must entertain an audience only in the ways that audience sees fit. It argues, in fact, that an artist like Ms. Ronstadt does not have the same rights as everyone else.

Perhaps her praise for Mr. Moore, even at the very end of her show, did ruin the performance for some people. They have a right to voice their disapproval - to express their opinion as Ms. Ronstadt expressed hers and to ask for a refund. But if their intemperate behavior began to worry the management, then they were the ones who should have been thrown out and told never to return, not Ms. Ronstadt, who threatened, after all, only to sing.

NYT (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/21/opinion/21wed4.html)

[2jaded2care]

You've put your finger on the real issue. It is very troubling to me that Americans have such a difficult time seeing that this isn't a "free speech" issue, it's a question of too many people being unable to stomach viewpoints which are not their own.

This goes for both sides, whether it's Ronstadt's so-called rights being violated, or the Pledge of Allegiance (a voluntary exercise) undergoing court scrutiny, or myriad other politically correct changes our society is struggling with.

While I decry any violence or property damage by people offended by Ronstadt's remarks, I don't fault the casino for its original actions, it seems every setting in our society is a potential controversy or lawsuit because someone's going to get offended. Easier to just ban every form of expression.

On another note, I gotta hand it to Moore. He's an expert at playing the publicity game.

[IJ Reilly]

This goes for both sides, whether it's Ronstadt's so-called rights being violated, or the Pledge of Allegiance (a voluntary exercise) undergoing court scrutiny, or myriad other politically correct changes our society is struggling with.

While I decry any violence or property damage by people offended by Ronstadt's remarks, I don't fault the casino for its original actions, it seems every setting in our society is a potential controversy or lawsuit because someone's going to get offended. Easier to just ban every form of expression.

I think you're missing the point. There's no Constitutional issue here. It's a question of people not behaving like grownups when faced with viewpoints they don't support. It isn't as though Ronstadt was inciting a riot.

In fact, this is a perfect example of right wing political correctness.

[mactastic]

Any concert I've ever been to where the audience gets rowdy, it's the offending members of the audience that are removed, not the performer. And telling people to go see a movie is hardly inciting a riot.

[2jaded2care]

IJ, I didn't think there was a valid constitutional issue to either example, as the Pledge is not compulsory. (And Moore's the one who brought the First Amendment into this.)

Nevertheless, I will cede the questionable issues regarding the Pledge.

And yes, I guess it is kinda ridiculous of me to suggest that songwriters could or should express their views in a song. Silly me! Next I'll be suggesting that poets express themselves in poem, or that painters or photographers might have a point of view. Whatta card!

[zimv20]

artists express opinions. that's why they're artists. if one goes to see art, and that includes a concert of music, one should expect to hear an opinion. good art, imo, makes one think and/or challenges a viewpoint.

ms. ronstadt, as an artist, expressed an opinion. no one should be surprised, even those who have been lulled into thinking a concert is "just about music."

mr. timmins was within his legal right to end the concert and eject the artist. however, he should be aware he's just another close-minded businessman persecuting an artist in a short-term, emotional display. people rioted at stravinsky's premier of Rite of Spring, too.

what we have here is the classic struggle of the artist trying to be heard and those with the money not liking the opinion. so what else is new?

[Sun Baked]

I just heard Moore on the TV and he stated the new owners of the Aladdin have apologized to Ronstadt and asked her to come back. If true, I'll have to call off my personal boycott of a casino I've never been to and still have no plans to visit. ;)So is Mr. Timmins going to let Mr. Moore stand up on stage and sing "America the Beautiful" on the stage with Ronstadt, then show "Fahrenheit 9/11" free of charge to all the guests afterwards?

Or is Mr. Timmins going to be fired by new leader Robert Earl?

[2jaded2care]

So apparently Bonnie Raitt has joined the Bash Bush crowd...

I guess my real problem with it is, I hate it when I get an unexpected sales pitch, which is all I consider this. Now admittedly, after looking into Ronstadt (who had not been on my radar screen since, well, ever), I can see where one should have expected some sermonizing. But I would get so turned off by political bashing (of either side) at an expected non-political event -- it would be like getting a telemarketer on my cell phone, or a commercial in the middle of a movie screening -- that I would reconsider my opinion of that artist. (Think: Dennis Miller.)

Raitt and Ronstadt have the right to speak out as artists. Wish it were in, say, Mother Jones rather than to a captive audience. But they can do as they please (as the Chicks did). As I might choose not to purchase any more Raitt songs through iTunes, but rather purchase a used CD (no royalties AFAIK)... So I guess now you Dems would have to give her your money to compensate!

[Sayhey]

So apparently Bonnie Raitt has joined the Bash Bush crowd...

2jaded, hate to break the news, but this isn't something new. Bonnie Raitt has been involved with progressive causes since at least the late '70s. If you are going to deprive yourself the wonderful work of artists, like Raitt, and limit yourself to artists who agree with you that Bush is a great President, you are going to be quite limited in your cultural experiences.

[zimv20]

If you are going to deprive yourself the wonderful work of artists, like Raitt, and limit yourself to artists who agree with you that Bush is a great President, you are going to be quite limited in your cultural experiences.
i saw a photo of wayne newton at a bush rally. so i guess mr. newton is "safe."

[pseudobrit]

From beginning to end, this whole story has been blown out of proportion.

Sure, she could have kept her mouth shut and there would have been no newsworthy event, but she's an artist, and politics and art often mix. Where politics has no place is in business.

The owner could have simply chosen not to book her again (since her contract was a one-gig deal) and forget the whole incident but, dumbass that he is, chose to toss her from her suite and make a big deal about how she had been "fired" and "banned."

I suspect petty politics is at play here, and Mr. Timmins is simply a pointy-headed fool who can't separate his business from his politics.

He's the one who made the real political statement, not Ms. Ronstadt.

[Sayhey]

i saw a photo of wayne newton at a bush rally. so i guess mr. newton is "safe."

Maybe we should all limit ourselves to listening to dead artists. That way we don't have to hear their annoying opinions. Of course, then there is the question of our money going to their heirs. Hmmm ... this could be a problem.

[patrick0brien]

What do you do? Are you a tennis coach?

-blackfox

Har-dee-harrr! :D

Actually, I run Hitachi Global Storage Technologies Intranet.

Herding cat's doesn't even come close...

[2jaded2care]

2jaded, hate to break the news, but this isn't something new. Bonnie Raitt has been involved with progressive causes since at least the late '70s. If you are going to deprive yourself the wonderful work of artists, like Raitt, and limit yourself to artists who agree with you that Bush is a great President, you are going to be quite limited in your cultural experiences.

Yes, I was previously unaware of Raitt's political activities. I guess I don't pay much attention to the political opinions of celebrities (left or right), as I don't consider them particularly more insightful than, say, the people on this forum. Not that they are necessarily less insightful, but I don't see where celebrity gives anyone's opinion any more credence or importance than those of less famous people. The only difference is they have a public platform to air their views, whereas we have, basically, letters to politicians and newspapers, forums such as these, and talk radio. Further, I don't consider any of Ronstadt's or Raitt's comments (or Dennis Miller's reported ones) to be particularly insightful or artistic expressions -- basically they were saying "Go, team! We're better than the other guys!" If they want to inject politics into a concert or award show, they should not be surprised to find they'll get some kudos and some complaints.

I never said I was going to limit my exposure to artists of one political persuasion or the other. I am not so insecure as to need my political opinions validated by such-and-such famous person, or think that they should agree with me. What I said was that I can choose not to financially support artists whose politics differ from mine (especially those who go out of their way to make a big deal of it) -- similar to someone's earlier comment about not patronizing the Aladdin casino.

PS - I also don't recall saying that Bush is a great President. I think history will tell ultimately, but personally, no, I don't think he is.

[Sayhey]

Yes, I was previously unaware of Raitt's political activities. I guess I don't pay much attention to the political opinions of celebrities (left or right), as I don't consider them particularly more insightful than, say, the people on this forum. Not that they are necessarily less insightful, but I don't see where celebrity gives anyone's opinion any more credence or importance than those of less famous people. The only difference is they have a public platform to air their views, whereas we have, basically, letters to politicians and newspapers, forums such as these, and talk radio. Further, I don't consider any of Ronstadt's or Raitt's comments (or Dennis Miller's reported ones) to be particularly insightful or artistic expressions -- basically they were saying "Go, team! We're better than the other guys!" If they want to inject politics into a concert or award show, they should not be surprised to find they'll get some kudos and some complaints.

I never said I was going to limit my exposure to artists of one political persuasion or the other. I am not so insecure as to need my political opinions validated by such-and-such famous person, or think that they should agree with me. What I said was that I can choose not to financially support artists whose politics differ from mine (especially those who go out of their way to make a big deal of it) -- similar to someone's earlier comment about not patronizing the Aladdin casino.

PS - I also don't recall saying that Bush is a great President. I think history will tell ultimately, but personally, no, I don't think he is.

2jaded,

I went over this a couple of times and I can't find anything I disagree with - is something wrong here? ;)

Seriously, we agree - on these points at least.

[IJ Reilly]

IJ, I didn't think there was a valid constitutional issue to either example, as the Pledge is not compulsory. (And Moore's the one who brought the First Amendment into this.)

Nevertheless, I will cede the questionable issues regarding the Pledge.

And yes, I guess it is kinda ridiculous of me to suggest that songwriters could or should express their views in a song. Silly me! Next I'll be suggesting that poets express themselves in poem, or that painters or photographers might have a point of view. Whatta card!

I did ask above whether it would have been less offensive for Ronstadt to have sung a song in praise of Michael Moore and his movie. I'd have to call that a semi-serious suggestion in light of your apparent feeling that the real problem wasn't that she vocalized her politics but that she did it without musical accompaniment. Is your answer to that question yes or no?

[vwcruisn]

-Sayhey

Perhapse not, but then showing of support is always less combative and hack-raising than disparagement - we see it every day on these boards. It's all about presentation.


But wasn't she just showing support to Moore? I fail to see the disparagement in what she said.



But then, I can't speak for Aladdin on this. I, however, do know that my reaction to even a supportive comment would ranckle me if I went to a concert expecting something else. I'd feel used. ("Now that your here and a captive audience, I'm going to take advantage of that and do something your aren't paying me to do.")


What about ads before a movie... advertisements at a sporting event etc. This certainly isn't the first time an audience is "held captive and taken advantage of."

[mactastic]

Indeed, the price of a ticket to an artistic event (and yes, Ronstadt's ability as an artist is definetly in question ;) ) does not include a guarantee that nothing offensive will happen to you. Artists express opinions, and sometimes those opinions are counter to your own. Do I agree with Gene Simmons' politics? No, but I like KISS (which puts my own artistic tastes in question, I know...) and if I went to a KISS show I would be half expecting to hear something that could have political implications. Should I throw things and behave boorishly if that happens? And if I do, should the artist be punished for it?

Art is supposed to be shocking at times. If you don't want to be shocked, grow a thick skin, or stay home with your fingers in your ears. You are just as likely to hear a differing political opinion in your workplace or just out and about in town as you are at your average concert performance. If you can't handle hearing opinions that differ from yours without acting like a child and throwing things then you need to grow up.

[2jaded2care]

I did ask above whether it would have been less offensive for Ronstadt to have sung a song in praise of Michael Moore and his movie. I'd have to call that a semi-serious suggestion in light of your apparent feeling that the real problem wasn't that she vocalized her politics but that she did it without musical accompaniment. Is your answer to that question yes or no?

Sorry, I projected a sarcastic subtext to your question and ignored it.

Warning to most: the following is probably completely boring and you should skip it if you value your time...

Well, yes, in my personal, strange opinion, I would call that "artistic expression" and give it a "pass". I might not agree with the sentiment, but it would pass my personal "smell test". To dedicate a generic old pop song to someone to express support, I would call simply expressing an opinion, which I don't consider artistic expression. We all express opinions on these pages. I wouldn't call many of the entries "artistic expressions" (especially my own), despite the fact that AFAIK some of you out there are, indeed, artists of some kind.

IOW, just because an artist says something, even during a performance, in my book wouldn't qualify it as "artistic expression". (Should make caveat here that some spoken word, including rap, is legitimate artistic expression.) A rocker yelling, "Hello Seattle, are you ready to rock?" seems to me obviously not "artistic expression" -- not to mention so cliched that it is about the only thing which does merit having objects thrown at the stage...

Nor do I necessarily believe that a drunken Vegas audience might not have had the exact same reaction to a song praising Moore. I'm just addressing my personal standards. Besides, a well-written song would have been much more classy, and if you don't like the lyrics, there's (sometimes) the melody... It's a more elegant way to get your point across. It's not a 2x4 hitting you in the face. It's likely to be more subtle and less insulting to the audience. It's not lowest-common-denominator. (Oh, yeah, we are talking Vegas, I have to remember...)

I guess that's the main thing, I'd rather have to figure out what the artist is all about, not have them preach at me and spell it out like I'm too stupid to "get it" on my own or think for myself.

[IJ Reilly]

I value my time, but I read your answer anyway. :p

Yeah, I agree, that's a pretty weird standard. I guess Springsteen never should have told all those stories between songs, like he used to. Shut up and sing, Bruce -- the people are paying good money here!

If you want to downgrade Linda Ronstadt's artistry for her mawkish stage banter, you aren't going to hurt by feelings. I never thought she was much of an artist anyway, and she is after all reduced to playing Vegas, which is where all the has-beens traditionally cling to the bottom rung of celebrity. I still think it's pretty hilarious to apply any standards of quality to a Vegas show. Maybe the people who got so riled up about Ronstadt would have been much happier seeing the show with the ladies spinning tassels on their you-know-whats.

Vegas is such a classy town. Obviously Linda Ronstadt just isn't up to their standards.

[patrick0brien]

Art is supposed to be shocking at times. If you don't want to be shocked, grow a thick skin, or stay home with your fingers in your ears. You are just as likely to hear a differing political opinion in your workplace or just out and about in town as you are at your average concert performance. If you can't handle hearing opinions that differ from yours without acting like a child and throwing things then you need to grow up.

-mactastic

Very true, we should listen (see my sig), and not jump on others for their opinions.

I think we're getting to the point were we actually had to be there, because I've heard all sorts of goodies, and I personally am starting to feel like an armchair judge on this matter.

[yamabushi]

I know a bunch of travel agents who have already stopped sending clients to the Aladdin. They work for one of the largest agencies in the U.S. and send several hundred people to Las Vegas every year. They feel that the Aladdin treated their celebrity guest unfairly. Kind of funny since most of the major Vegas casinos beg for their attention by sending them gifts every year including the Aladdin. The next one they receive is likely to go straight to the trash. There are plenty of better places to send clients anyways.

Some guests attended the show and didn't like it but this is not unusual. What is unusual is firing someone for an offhand somewhat political comment as part of a song dedication. People get fired all the time for using foul language but not for endorsing a popular film. It is well known that she expresses her opinions as part of her act in between songs. If they didn't like her act they should not have hired her. At worst they could have declined to have her back but publicly kicking her out for doing the act she was hired to do is unacceptable. There was obviously some political motivation on the part of the casino staff since kicking her out would upset at least as many guests as they would placate.

[mactastic]

-mactastic

Very true, we should listen (see my sig), and not jump on others for their opinions.

Ahh, I probably deserved that...

I'm not saying we shouldn't jump on others for their opinions, well not literally, but I have no problem with disagreement on the issues, as long as it stops short of childish behavior such as throwing glasses, or publicly removing a performer for such a mild message. I mean, come on. "Go see a movie"? How inciteful is that?

Plenty of college students seem to be capable of either boycotting or simply turning their backs during commencement speeches given by polititians they disagree with. Commencements rarely turn violent, and if they do, are the speechmakers at fault? So if college students can manage it, shouldn't we expect the rest of the populace to as well?

[usmcdiorio]

Art is supposed to be shocking at times. If you don't want to be shocked, grow a thick skin, or stay home with your fingers in your ears. You are just as likely to hear a differing political opinion in your workplace or just out and about in town as you are at your average concert performance. If you can't handle hearing opinions that differ from yours without acting like a child and throwing things then you need to grow up.

Yes, art is supposed to be shocking at times. If I were going to see Michael Moore speak, I would have a general idea of what to expect. But say I'm pro-Bush and like Linda Ronstadt's music. I pay $100-$250 to see her perform. Everything is going great until she becomes Farenheit 911's biggest fan. Did I pay to listen Linda Ronstadt's political viewpoint? No, I paid to hear her sing. At that point I have every right to be upset with her and her performance, and it is no more child-like of me to voice my opinion than it is of Linda Ronstadt. In general entertainment should be treated like religion, seperate from politics and government.

[2jaded2care]

Yeah, I agree, that's a pretty weird standard. I guess Springsteen never should have told all those stories between songs, like he used to. Shut up and sing, Bruce -- the people are paying good money here!

If you want to downgrade Linda Ronstadt's artistry for her mawkish stage banter, you aren't going to hurt by feelings.

Repeat warning: Following is probably a complete waste of time to most people...

Hey IJ, I've been thinking this over. Being a liberal-arts and frustrated "creative" type (as lots of Mac users seem to be), it was kind of important that I figure this out for my own sake.

I think the difference is, I welcome the banter which relates to the creative process in some way. ("I wrote this song after visiting Ground Zero", or "This was inspired by the birth of my first child", etc.) Or if it's an amusing or entertaining anecdote which relates in some way.

I don't welcome the banter which seems irrelevent to the performance ("My dog's name is 'Sponge'" -- where that's the end of the thought -- or "It sure is cold here in Chicago!"). I mean, I don't care. Really, I don't. And if those comments seem like a commercial for something unrelated to the performance, I feel used. (It's like, "Hey, now that dinner's done, would you like to see our vacation slides?") For example, I assume that many people would not enjoy having an artist make a pitch for audience members to join a particular religious denomination during a show, unless it is, for example, a well-known religious performer.

My 1 cent...

[yamabushi]

I don't welcome the banter which seems irrelevent to the performance. I mean, I don't care. Really, I don't. And if those comments seem like a commercial for something unrelated to the performance, I feel used.

Some performers probably feel used themselves if they are not* allowed to say a few things in between songs. I mean, they are human beings - not iPods.

[Neserk]

For example, I assume that many people would not enjoy having an artist make a pitch for audience members to join a particular religious denomination during a show, unless it is, for example, a well-known religious performer.


Actually when I went to Christian concerts as a teenager I used to hate it when they would stop to preach. It was annoying. They totally devalued the message of their songs, imo. The songs said it all. There was one group that was so arrogant that after I attended a concert I refused to listen to their music anymore. They should have kept their mouths shut.

[2jaded2care]

Some performers probably feel used themselves if they are not* allowed to say a few things in between songs. I mean, they are human beings - not iPods.

Didn't think that was at all what I said, but hey, who am I to argue?

Sorry about the misspelled word in my previous post (irrelevant). I mean, the word was irrelevant. No, I mean, the word irrelevant was misspelled. Whatever.

I should probably quit now.

[patrick0brien]

I should probably quit now.

-I think my brain hurts...

[IJ Reilly]

Repeat warning: Following is probably a complete waste of time to most people...

Hey IJ, I've been thinking this over. Being a liberal-arts and frustrated "creative" type (as lots of Mac users seem to be), it was kind of important that I figure this out for my own sake.

I think the difference is, I welcome the banter which relates to the creative process in some way. ("I wrote this song after visiting Ground Zero", or "This was inspired by the birth of my first child", etc.) Or if it's an amusing or entertaining anecdote which relates in some way.

I don't welcome the banter which seems irrelevent to the performance ("My dog's name is 'Sponge'" -- where that's the end of the thought -- or "It sure is cold here in Chicago!"). I mean, I don't care. Really, I don't. And if those comments seem like a commercial for something unrelated to the performance, I feel used. (It's like, "Hey, now that dinner's done, would you like to see our vacation slides?") For example, I assume that many people would not enjoy having an artist make a pitch for audience members to join a particular religious denomination during a show, unless it is, for example, a well-known religious performer.

My 1 cent...

That was worth at least three cents to me. No, really -- good answer.

I understand what you're saying here, but I think you're promoting a very fuzzy distinction, and one that wouldn't make much sense outside of the US. To amplify what's already been said, these artists are people like you and me. They don't stop being people because they're on a stage; in fact, they might well get the idea (mistaken or otherwise) that the very fact that they're paid to stand in front of a room full of people makes their thoughts about life and such inherently interesting. No surprise there, I think.

I'd be interested to hear from our non-US participants. I strongly suspect that they don't get (pardon the expression) such a tight butt about artists publicly expressing their political views.

[skunk]

Our butts are totally untight on that subject. :cool:

[takao]

I'd be interested to hear from our non-US participants. I strongly suspect that they don't get (pardon the expression) such a tight butt about artists publicly expressing their political views.


i guess i can agree with skunk on this one...
i've never saw somebody being fired because of recommending a movie or saying something political on stage during songs....

but last year there was a big scandal in salzburg where an artist group put up a well who in fact had the shape of a man who was bending backwards with his huge errected * aiming in the air.... after the water gone up it came actually back down in the face of the sculpture..... after 24 hours to police put a cover above it which made it even look more funny ;) (the whole thing happened on a public place in view distance of a church)
now the well is standing in a museum... the whole story was nearly unbelievable comical..seeing how the police tried to cover the thing and old ladies standing there complaining...