Arguing pilots fly 150 miles past runway

[jessica.]

Article Link (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/oct/23/northwest-pilots-argument-miss-runway)

"Arguing" pilots fly 150 miles past runway ... yeah right. First it was "distracted", then it was "they were having a conversation on airline policy", now it's "arguing".

We put our lives in these pilot's hands every day, if something such as some "argument" can distract them more than city lights then I'm rather surprised.

The article also says no one noticed the fight had taken a detour. While this is probably true, I think I'd notice if my flight was to land at 8 pm, there was no decent, and an 1h 15m later I was on the ground. I think I'd notice if my flight wasn't landing on time.

[swiftaw]

The rumor is that the were actually asleep, since there was no radio contact with them for several hours. (Air traffic control even contacted the airlines head office to see if them could contact the plane via other methods).

[iBlue]

Dodgy pilots. Tsk, tsk.

[whooleytoo]

The article also says no one noticed the fight had taken a detour. While this is probably true, I think I'd notice if my flight was to land at 8 pm, there was no decent, and an 1h 15m later I was on the ground. I think I'd notice if my flight wasn't landing on time.

Hah!

Reminds me of a scene from The Quiet Man. :p

[IntheNet]

"Arguing" pilots fly 150 miles past runway...

Curious whether Northwest will charge passengers for the extra 150 mile transport...

:D

[yg17]

They should've let this guy fly:

199961

[rdowns]

Curious whether Northwest will charge passengers for the extra 150 mile transport...

:D

I'd demand the additional frequent flyer miles, at the least.

[Don't panic]

I'd demand the additional frequent flyer miles, at the least.

i was thinking the exact same thing :D:D:D

[eawmp1]

They should've let this guy fly:

199961

He probably deflated and it took the flight attendant 150 miles to reinflate him.

[whooleytoo]

I'd demand the additional frequent flyer miles, at the least.

Brave man! Those guys were arguing for 150 miles. I don't think I'd demand anything. I think I'd ask very, very nicely. :)

[Gregg2]

Distracted by a heated discussion over airline policy to the point that they ignored the control tower trying to "hand off" their flight to another jurisdiction? I don't think so. The voice recorder will tell all.

[dmr727]

Most likely they fell asleep. This kind of mistake is almost impossible otherwise. Like Gregg2 mentioned, the CVR will reveal what really happened.

[jessica.]

Most likely they fell asleep. This kind of mistake is almost impossible otherwise. Like Gregg2 mentioned, the CVR will reveal what really happened.

So the CVR records everything? I mean, everything? So if there is silence then these morons going on record saying it was a conversation that distracted them are toast as well?

I ask because only seeing cockpits I can't imagine allowing yourself to become so distracted by anything that it would result in you missing a landing. It would seem that a seasoned pilot would at least know better and I don't think there are too many newbie pilots working for NWA/Delta.

[dmr727]

So the CVR records everything? I mean, everything? So if there is silence then these morons going on record saying it was a conversation that distracted them are toast as well?

Basically, yes. That's what's bothering me - I can't believe they'd go on record and say one thing if they know the CVR will show something else. And you're right about the rest. That's what makes me think they simply fell asleep. It's happened before - Frontier had an Airbus crew fall asleep a few years back coming into Denver. Mesa (Go! Jets) overflew Hawaii not too long ago.

Fatigue is definitely a problem in the industry, but nobody has stepped up to the plate to really fix it.

[sushi]

o if there is silence then these morons going on record saying it was a conversation that distracted them are toast as well?
I think that their loud snoring may indicate otherwise. :eek:

Basically, yes. That's what's bothering me - I can't believe they'd go on record and say one thing if they know the CVR will show something else. And you're right about the rest. That's what makes me think they simply fell asleep. It's happened before - Frontier had an Airbus crew fall asleep a few years back coming into Denver. Mesa (Go! Jets) overflew Hawaii not too long ago.

Fatigue is definitely a problem in the industry, but nobody has stepped up to the plate to really fix it.
What is the recording limit for a CVR. Thirty minutes right. So we may never know what happened during that time frame.

As far as falling asleep in the cockpit. It happens ... unfortunately.

[jessica.]

Interesting, just got this article from a friend.
Delta flight lands on taxiway instead of runway. (http://www.ajc.com/news/delta-flight-lands-on-167519.html?cxtype=rss_business_87628)

[dmr727]

What is the recording limit for a CVR. Thirty minutes right. So we may never know what happened during that time frame.

The reg states at least 30 minutes, but at least with the CVRs I've been familiar with, the ambient channels will record the last hour. Of course I have no idea what this particular CVR will do, so you may be right.

[whooleytoo]

Interesting, just got this article from a friend.
Delta flight lands on taxiway instead of runway. (http://www.ajc.com/news/delta-flight-lands-on-167519.html?cxtype=rss_business_87628)

Strange, they say it's incredibly rare, and yet just a few months back:

Ryanair flight lands on taxiway at Cagliari (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/04/12/325060/inquiry-as-ryanair-flight-lands-on-taxiway-at-cagliari.html)

[yg17]

The reg states at least 30 minutes, but at least with the CVRs I've been familiar with, the ambient channels will record the last hour. Of course I have no idea what this particular CVR will do, so you may be right.

So if they fly an hour past MSP, by the time they turn around and land, the last hour recorded will be the hour after they realized their mistake. Maybe we'll hear them making up a story though.

[dmr727]

So if they fly an hour past MSP, by the time they turn around and land, the last hour recorded will be the hour after they realized their mistake. Maybe we'll hear them making up a story though.

It's possible. They didn't fly an hour past - they were out of communication for an hour. But yeah, sushi's point still stands - with the taxi time included, it could have easily been more than 30 minutes from the point they turned around to the point they arrived at the gate.

[sushi]

It's possible. They didn't fly an hour past - they were out of communication for an hour. But yeah, sushi's point still stands - with the taxi time included, it could have easily been more than 30 minutes from the point they turned around to the point they arrived at the gate.
So we may never know what really happened unless the investigators get the pilots to stumble over their agreed excuse/reason. :(

About 20 years ago, there was a push to have longer tapes "recordings" if you will since 30 minutes is not always long enough. I forget the reason, but that idea didn't get traction and we still have 30 minutes.

Fatigue in the cockpit can definitely happen. Been there done that. I will say a little chewing tobacco stuck in the bottom of your eyelid will keep them open ... usually. Unless you are really tired.

[dmr727]

About 20 years ago, there was a push to have longer tapes "recordings" if you will since 30 minutes is not always long enough. I forget the reason, but that idea didn't get traction and we still have 30 minutes.


I was just looking at my wife's FAR/FC, specifically 121.359, and the good news is that the FAA will mandate that it be two hours by April 7, 2012. That doesn't help here, but at least they're moving forward.

[yg17]

Given how cheap storage is nowadays, couldn't they just record the entire flight, even the long 18 hour ones? It seems like that would make the most sense. 2 hours might not even be enough for some incidents depending on when the problem starts

[MooneyFlyer]

I was just looking at my wife's FAR/FC, specifically 121.359, and the good news is that the FAA will mandate that it be two hours by April 7, 2012. That doesn't help here, but at least they're moving forward.

I've heard taht the Airbus's already carry the solid state cockpit flight recorders in many of their planes (if not all). They should have the full two hours.

At night it is pretty easy to see major cities go by. Unless these guys were physically wrestling I'm having a hard time understanding how an argument could keep them out of reasonable situational awareness for that long. I'm a pilot, I can see how things like this can happen, but I am hugely skeptical of this story.

[sushi]

I was just looking at my wife's FAR/FC, specifically 121.359, and the good news is that the FAA will mandate that it be two hours by April 7, 2012. That doesn't help here, but at least they're moving forward.
Thanks for the info. Good news!

[dmr727]

Thanks for the info. Good news!

As MooneyFlyer stated, I think a lot of recorders are doing the 2 hours already. I just dug a manual out, and my recorder does two for the ambient channels, and 30 minutes for the headset and radio channels. So unless the crew intentionally erased the CVR (which would open a whole other discussion), perhaps we'll find out what happened. Or not - Northwest has an older Airbus fleet. Whatever the case - it'll be interesting to see how this plays out. :eek:

Interesting week in aviation, that's for sure. At least nobody was hurt.

[MooneyFlyer]

NBC claims that this plane has the older model CVR...

[sushi]

Whatever the case - it'll be interesting to see how this plays out. :eek:
Yes it will be.

[william sire]

About 8 years ago I got an OUI (Operating Under Influence), as part of my conviction I had to take an Alcohol awareness class. Education on what alcohol is and does to you when you consume it. The reason that is relevant to this is what I learned during that course.

There was a pilot who was a recovering alcoholic, he hadn’t touched a drink in twenty years. One day being stressed he had the flight attendant serve him one cocktail after he got on a flight from (I think it was...) New York to Los Angeles.** The next conscious moment he remembers was being in a meeting at a rehab center in Las Vegas, two weeks later. He obviously didn’t stop at one drink. But the real problem was he was the pilot on that flight. A full 747 people traveling for Christmas. How was that possible? That’s when I learned that these planes for I don’t know how many years have always been navigated by on board computers, Auto-pilot. That’s almost every flight you ever get on. The pilots take off and land.

I don’t know if it’s comforting to know this but the pilots are not likely awake or paying any attention during long flights of any flights you are on. Hopefully the one I was made aware of is the only one who was drunk.

As far the timing goes, I was on a flight from Norfolk VA to Las Vegas that arrived two hours early due to an unexpected tail wind. It’s not at all unreasonable for the flight crew to ignore the time delay thinking it may be just weather conditions slowing the flight. They being aware that the pilots often slept on long flights probably didn’t want to wake the poor babies.

But think about that next time you get on a flight. You probably aren’t the only one who can’t wait for that plane to reach cruising altitude so you can fluff up a pillow and get some sleep. The pilot only has one other task before he is doing the same thing. He has to press that button that says “Auto Control.”

**I asked about that too. It was after he was in the air of a plane he was flying.

[dmr727]

^^^ Hmmm. To begin with, autopilots have been around since the 20s. To take it a step further, the autopilot is mandatory between 29,000 and 41,000 feet.

To say that it's likely that the pilots are asleep on any long flight is completely incorrect. Sleeping is the exception to the rule. And when it does happen, one pilot will monitor the aircraft while the other naps. Two pilots asleep is always unintentional. Even if nothing else is going on, a given airplane crossing the county has to communicate with ATC every ten to fifteen minutes anyway. Point is, it's not like the pilots take off, take a nap, then wake up to land.

Of course, napping of any form should be completely unacceptable. The solution is to fix the rest rules so the pilots don't feel the need to nap while in flight. Right now their logic is that it's better to take a power nap in cruise than inadvertently fall asleep during approach and landing. Trouble is, changing the rest rules is absolutely the last thing the airlines want. The FAA doesn't change unless there's pressure to change, so while it sucks that these things are happening, it's good that the media is being alerted to the fatigue problems in the industry. Hopefully it'll apply enough pressure for changes - real changes - to be made.

[yg17]

About 8 years ago I got an OUI (Operating Under Influence), as part of my conviction I had to take an Alcohol awareness class. Education on what alcohol is and does to you when you consume it. The reason that is relevant to this is what I learned during that course.

There was a pilot who was a recovering alcoholic, he hadn’t touched a drink in twenty years. One day being stressed he had the flight attendant serve him one cocktail after he got on a flight from (I think it was...) New York to Los Angeles.** The next conscious moment he remembers was being in a meeting at a rehab center in Las Vegas, two weeks later. He obviously didn’t stop at one drink. But the real problem was he was the pilot on that flight. A full 747 people traveling for Christmas. How was that possible? That’s when I learned that these planes for I don’t know how many years have always been navigated by on board computers, Auto-pilot. That’s almost every flight you ever get on. The pilots take off and land.

I don’t know if it’s comforting to know this but the pilots are not likely awake or paying any attention during long flights of any flights you are on. Hopefully the one I was made aware of is the only one who was drunk.

As far the timing goes, I was on a flight from Norfolk VA to Las Vegas that arrived two hours early due to an unexpected tail wind. It’s not at all unreasonable for the flight crew to ignore the time delay thinking it may be just weather conditions slowing the flight. They being aware that the pilots often slept on long flights probably didn’t want to wake the poor babies.

But think about that next time you get on a flight. You probably aren’t the only one who can’t wait for that plane to reach cruising altitude so you can fluff up a pillow and get some sleep. The pilot only has one other task before he is doing the same thing. He has to press that button that says “Auto Control.”

**I asked about that too. It was after he was in the air of a plane he was flying.

Are pilots allowed any alcoholic drinks at all? If not, why the hell did the flight attendant serve him one?

[Abstract]

Wirelessly posted (Nokia 5800 Tube XpressMusic : Mozilla/5.0 (SymbianOS/9.4; U; Series60/5.0 Nokia5800d-1/21.0.101; Profile/MIDP-2.1 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 ) AppleWebKit/413 (KHTML, like Gecko) Safari/413)

Distracted by a heated discussion over airline policy to the point that they ignored the control tower trying to "hand off" their flight to another jurisdiction? I don't think so. The voice recorder will tell all.

PC-using Pilot: "So......what do you think about the new MacBook? Pretty lame, no?"


Mac-using co-pilot: "I'm going to smack you back to Whore island."


PC: "Oh #*@&, heeeeeeere we go....."



See how easily this could happen?

[william sire]

Are pilots allowed any alcoholic drinks at all? If not, why the hell did the flight attendant serve him one?

I don’t have any answer to that. I’m only reciting what I was told. This was related to me directly from the pilot.

^^^ Hmmm. To begin with, autopilots have been around since the 20s. To take it a step further, the autopilot is mandatory between 29,000 and 41,000 feet.
You know that, but is that commonly known to the general public? Until I read your post I wasn’t aware that autopilots were in use in the twenty’s. I doubt that it would be well known in the general public or that such a sophisticated technology wold have been first created in 1912.

To say that it's likely that the pilots are asleep on any long flight is completely incorrect. Sleeping is the exception to the rule. And when it does happen, one pilot will monitor the aircraft while the other naps. Two pilots asleep is always unintentional. Even if nothing else is going on, a given airplane crossing the county has to communicate with ATC every ten to fifteen minutes anyway. Point is, it's not like the pilots take off, take a nap, then wake up to land.You may have misinterpreted what I was saying. I doubt that a great many people in the general population have any knowledge that either pilot slept on flights. Or that the aircraft ever reached it’s destination unattended. After a story like this becomes news it might change ones previous perspectives about traveling by air.

Of course, napping of any form should be completely unacceptable. The solution is to fix the rest rules so the pilots don't feel the need to nap while in flight. Right now their logic is that it's better to take a power nap in cruise than inadvertently fall asleep during approach and landing. Trouble is, changing the rest rules is absolutely the last thing the airlines want. The FAA doesn't change unless there's pressure to change, so while it sucks that these things are happening, it's good that the media is being alerted to the fatigue problems in the industry. Hopefully it'll apply enough pressure for changes - real changes - to be made.Well I wasn’t going all those places. I was just pointing out that unbeknownst to the general public autopilots were doing more flying than you likely realized.

[Gregg2]

What is the recording limit for a CVR. Thirty minutes right. So we may never know what happened during that time frame.
Two hours is the limit, according to one former pilot on TV. But, this one was only the 30 minute model.

So if they fly an hour past MSP, by the time they turn around and land, the last hour recorded will be the hour after they realized their mistake. Maybe we'll hear them making up a story though.
Well, the conclusion is correct, because theirs was only good for the last 30 minutes.

I was just looking at my wife's FAR/FC, specifically 121.359, and the good news is that the FAA will mandate that it be two hours by April 7, 2012. That doesn't help here, but at least they're moving forward.
They might move a little faster now!

[dmr727]

Are pilots allowed any alcoholic drinks at all? If not, why the hell did the flight attendant serve him one?

Not in the US, no. I have no idea why a flight attendant would serve him one.


You may have misinterpreted what I was saying.


It was this comment that made me point out that sleeping in the cockpit isn't the norm:

I don’t know if it’s comforting to know this but the pilots are not likely awake or paying any attention during long flights of any flights you are on.

Anyway, it seems one of the pilots is saying that not only did they not sleep, but they weren't arguing either. I wonder what his explanation will be?

[yg17]

Not in the US, no. I have no idea why a flight attendant would serve him one.

So are you implying that in other countries, they can? Do you know which countries so I know which countries I should never fly to? :p

[dmr727]

So are you implying that in other countries, they can? Do you know which countries so I know which countries I should never fly to? :p

I've heard about some places, such as France, where the pilots will have a glass of wine with their dinner. I can't confirm that, though. :)

[bradl]

For those that want to know, here's the good stuff.

Flight:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/NWA188/history/20091021/2135Z/KSAN/KMSP

LiveATC.net feed for KMSP during the arrival

7pm - 7:30pm
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kmsp/KMSP-App-Oct-22-2009-0100Z.mp3

7:30pm - 8pm (15minutes in, you should start to hear them)
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kmsp/KMSP-App-Oct-22-2009-0130Z.mp3

8pm - 8:30pm (they're about 20DME out by this time)
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kmsp/KMSP-App-Oct-22-2009-0200Z.mp3

Enjoy.

BL.

[Eraserhead]

So are you implying that in other countries, they can?

Without making this discussion too political the rules aren't always applied as strictly in all countries in the world as they are in Europe and the US ;).

[ucfgrad93]

WSJ is reporting that the pilots were distracted by a laptops in the cockpit.

The pilots of Northwest Flight 188 have told federal investigators that a bathroom break, chatting with a flight attendant in the cockpit and then taking out their laptops to discuss work schedules created distractions that led to more than an hour of radio silence with air-traffic controllers, according to people familiar with the statements.

The sequence of events laid out by the pilots in interviews with the National Transportation Safety Board on Sunday, these people said, refutes the notion that the pilots nodded off at the controls. Instead, the pilots' statements highlight how a combination of seemingly mundane human factors can combine to create major distractions and mental lapses by cockpit crews. In this case, the jetliner stayed on autopilot and cruised past its destination airport by more than 100 miles.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125658134147008625.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLTopStories

[jecapaga]

WSJ is reporting that the pilots were distracted by a laptops in the cockpit.



http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125658134147008625.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLTopStories

I guess this is better than sleeping. Still seems highly irresponsible. Perhaps playing around on laptops is commonplace for commercial pilots in the air?

[Gregg2]

I guess this is better than sleeping.

I disagree. Fatigue is a physiological state that can be attributed to being overworked, or not allowing planned naps in the cockpit for U.S. flights as pilots in the rest of the world can. Being awake and not paying attention is inexcusable.

[eawmp1]

You know, everyone blasted the train engineer who was texting, resulting in a crash. I'm not sure I'd want my airline pilot checking email, surfing the web, or playing WOW at 35,000 ft., even with autopilot on.

[dmr727]

I disagree. Fatigue is a physiological state that can be attributed to being overworked, or not allowing planned naps in the cockpit for U.S. flights as pilots in the rest of the world can. Being awake and not paying attention is inexcusable.

Yeah, I agree with this. For 99% of professional pilots out there, being situationally away from the aircraft for even a few minutes is uncomfortable - kind of like being in a car without a seatbelt on. Even when doing something else, the instinct is to at least glance up every minute or two to make sure the aircraft is doing what it's supposed to. A full hour for both pilots is not only completely careless, but it's so far off the end of careless that I'm still having a hard time believing that they're telling the truth.

Heck, ten minutes of radio silence will rub most pilots the wrong way - they didn't think something was wrong after an hour of not talking or hearing from anyone? Not to mention the aircraft passing through who knows how many fixes on the arrival, ignoring ACARS messages, not noticing the aircraft mindlessly wandering off on a heading after passing the final fix?

Sigh...I'm the first guy to give pilots the benefit of the doubt, but if what they're saying is true, they should have lied and said they fell asleep. :(

[IntheNet]

Perhaps playing around on laptops is commonplace for commercial pilots in the air?

Download rates for porn at 12,000 feet are near perfect; we should give these pilots a break as long as they share their downloads!

:rolleyes:

[Peace]

Yeah, I agree with this. For 99% of professional pilots out there, being situationally away from the aircraft for even a few minutes is uncomfortable - kind of like being in a car without a seatbelt on. Even when doing something else, the instinct is to at least glance up every minute or two to make sure the aircraft is doing what it's supposed to. A full hour for both pilots is not only completely careless, but it's so far off the end of careless that I'm still having a hard time believing that they're telling the truth.

Heck, ten minutes of radio silence will rub most pilots the wrong way - they didn't think something was wrong after an hour of not talking or hearing from anyone? Not to mention the aircraft passing through who knows how many fixes on the arrival, ignoring ACARS messages, not noticing the aircraft mindlessly wandering off on a heading after passing the final fix?

Sigh...I'm the first guy to give pilots the benefit of the doubt, but if what they're saying is true, they should have lied and said they fell asleep. :(

Answer for me an honest question could you?

Have you ever heard of pilots screwing around with a stewardess while in flight?

I have a theory.:p

[dmr727]

Answer for me an honest question could you?

Have you ever heard of pilots screwing around with a stewardess while in flight?

I have a theory.:p

Heh! I've heard stories from airline pilots while on the road, but I have no way to verify if they're true or not. My understanding is that it was more prevalent back in the day, but once the whole sexual harassment thing got big in the 90s, it pretty much stopped. A pissed off flight attendant, even if the act itself was consensual, could cause a lot of problems. :p

[MooneyFlyer]

Yeah, I agree with this. For 99% of professional pilots out there, being situationally away from the aircraft for even a few minutes is uncomfortable - kind of like being in a car without a seatbelt on. Even when doing something else, the instinct is to at least glance up every minute or two to make sure the aircraft is doing what it's supposed to. A full hour for both pilots is not only completely careless, but it's so far off the end of careless that I'm still having a hard time believing that they're telling the truth.

Heck, ten minutes of radio silence will rub most pilots the wrong way - they didn't think something was wrong after an hour of not talking or hearing from anyone? Not to mention the aircraft passing through who knows how many fixes on the arrival, ignoring ACARS messages, not noticing the aircraft mindlessly wandering off on a heading after passing the final fix?

Sigh...I'm the first guy to give pilots the benefit of the doubt, but if what they're saying is true, they should have lied and said they fell asleep. :(

This post is so true. It is second nature to look at everything quite often even if you don't really consciously absorb the data. A slight glance to the main instruments lets you know that everything is "in the right place." After enough hours you can recognize when something isn't quite right. For professional pilots doing the same journey over and over, I would suspect this is the case on timing as well. After enough time in the air you just sort of "know" it's time to move on from cruise.

And, for the other pilots, ever have 10 mins of silence on a Sunday morning? usually someone says "anyone there?" just to make sure that you are on the right freq. or still receiving. 10 mins of no radio comms (to you) seems like a long time.

Still skeptical -- but who knows...

[Thomas Veil]

Yeah, I agree with this. For 99% of professional pilots out there, being situationally away from the aircraft for even a few minutes is uncomfortable - kind of like being in a car without a seatbelt on. Even when doing something else, the instinct is to at least glance up every minute or two to make sure the aircraft is doing what it's supposed to. A full hour for both pilots is not only completely careless, but it's so far off the end of careless that I'm still having a hard time believing that they're telling the truth.
Agree completely. Yet apparently it's true.

According to ABC News, the FAA is likely to suspend these two jokers, and the airline will probably fire them. Kind of sad, because one guy had something like 20 years' experience, the other twelve. But as you say, this is off-the-charts irresponsibility. Any other punishment would be inadequate.

[IntheNet]

Have you ever heard of pilots screwing around with a stewardess while in flight?

Turbulence is a euphemism.

;)

[sushi]

Here's some interesting information on the incident:

Both pilots were interviewed separately by NTSB investigators yesterday in Minnesota. The following is an overview of the interviews:
The first officer and the captain were interviewed for over 5 hours combined.
The Captain, 53 years old, was hired in 1985. His total flight time is about 20,000 hours, about 10,000 hours of A-320 time of which about 7,000 was as pilot in command.
The First Officer, 54 years old, was hired in 1997. His total flight time is about 11,000 hours, and has about 5,000 hours on the A-320.
Both pilots said they had never had an accident, incident or violation.
Neither pilot reported any ongoing medical conditions.
Both pilots stated that they were not fatigued. They were both commuters, but they had a 19-hour layover in San Diego just prior to the incident flight. Both said they did not fall asleep or doze during the flight.
Both said there was no heated argument.
Both stated there was a distraction in the cockpit. The pilots said there was a concentrated period of discussion where they did not monitor the airplane or calls from ATC even though both stated they heard conversation on the radio. Also, neither pilot noticed messages that were sent by company dispatchers. They were discussing the new monthly crew flight scheduling system that was now in place as a result of the merger. The discussion began at cruise altitude.
Both said they lost track of time.
Each pilot accessed and used his personal laptop computer while they discussed the airline crew flight scheduling procedure. The first officer, who was more familiar with the procedure was providing instruction to the captain. The use of personal computers on the flight deck is prohibited by company policy.
Neither pilot was aware of the airplane's position until a flight attendant called about 5 minutes before they were scheduled to land and asked what was their estimated time of arrival (ETA). The captain said, at that point, he looked at his primary flight display for an ETA and realized that they had passed MSP. They made contact with ATC and were given vectors back to MSP.
At cruise altitude - the pilots stated they were using cockpit speakers to listen to radio communications, not their headsets.
When asked by ATC what the problem was, they replied "just cockpit distraction" and "dealing with company issues".
Both pilots said there are no procedures for the flight attendants to check on the pilots during flight.

I can't imagine not completing a cockpit scan -- even a partial one -- every 30 seconds to a minute. If true, these guys must really have been distracted by their non pilot duty cockpit discussion.

[leomac08]

Pilots are humans too........:p

[jecapaga]

I can't imagine not completing a cockpit scan -- even a partial one -- every 30 seconds to a minute. If true, these guys must really have been distracted by their non pilot duty cockpit discussion.

dmr727 touched on this and I just can't even imagine that not every few seconds to minutes scanning the controls and area. To not do this almost seems unnatural. How did they just not respond to all of the different responses they received to check in? Can't imagine just losing myself in a laptop for that long. Where is the human instinct to "check the road". Scary really.

If the cockpit has become so automated that it promotes tuning out human attention I don't think that's a good thing. The fact that they did this and Delta has now come out and said any pilot caught using a laptop in flight is against the rule and will be fired makes me wonder how prevalent this is. Because you know this was not the first time for these seasoned veterans.

No doubt they should lose their license.

[iBlue]

So I'm not the only one who thinks the laptop excuse is a a big steaming pile of dookie? It seems like it's actually a lousy lie to tell because what if it suddenly becomes regulation for laptops not to be present in the cockpit? Ruining it for pilots who are more responsible than that.

I admit, I don't know jack about piloting other than what dmr727 and sushi tell me but if I were a gambling sort of girl I'd bet they fell asleep and they're too embarrassed to admit it. I also wonder if this laptop lie could more damaging than the probable truth of sleeping. (?)

[Thomas Veil]

So I'm not the only one who thinks the laptop excuse is a a big steaming pile of dookie? It seems like it's actually a lousy lie to tell because what if it suddenly becomes regulation for laptops not to be present in the cockpit? Ruining it for pilots who are more responsible than that. Actually, it already is against regulations on this airline.

[Hmac]

So if they fly an hour past MSP, by the time they turn around and land, the last hour recorded will be the hour after they realized their mistake. Maybe we'll hear them making up a story though.

You mean they just didn't know that there was a CVR on board?

Uh...unlikely they'd have such a discussion during that part of the flight.

[sushi]

So I'm not the only one who thinks the laptop excuse is a a big steaming pile of dookie?
Believe me, this has crossed my mind a time or two.

Even if they didn't have their headsets on, and were listening on speakers, I still find it hard to believe that they didn't hear ATC or any other calls.

I admit, I don't know jack about piloting other than what dmr727 and sushi tell me but if I were a gambling sort of girl I'd bet they fell asleep and they're too embarrassed to admit it. I also wonder if this laptop lie could more damaging than the probable truth of sleeping. (?)
That's definitely a good question. Either is bad. Being distracted while on a computer, which against the airline rules, is probably better than having fallen asleep, which would be in violation of FAA regulations.

In short hand, maybe this:
Computer = Fired (or face heavy disciplinary action). Can still fly with their current airline or another airline.

Asleep = FAA license suspension. If permanent, their flying days are over.

dmr727, what do you think?

[Gregg2]

Being distracted while on a computer, which against the airline rules, is probably better than having fallen asleep, which would be in violation of FAA regulations.
Better in terms of how much hot water the pilots find themselves in? Not better, IMO, for the safety of the passengers and crew. They were intentionally distracted. They just flat were not paying attention to what they were supposed to be paying attention to. Had they been asleep, something could have awoken them sooner. It seems unlikely that two people could doze off at the same time, and both be asleep for over 75 minutes. Even unplanned naps during the day tend to be brief.

[sushi]

Better in terms of how much hot water the pilots find themselves in? Not better, IMO, for the safety of the passengers and crew. They were intentionally distracted. They just flat were not paying attention to what they were supposed to be paying attention to. Had they been asleep, something could have awoken them sooner. It seems unlikely that two people could doze off at the same time, and both be asleep for over 75 minutes. Even unplanned naps during the day tend to be brief.
I was strictly looking at it from the pilot's perspective -- which excuse would put them in less hot water.

Safety of the passengers and crew is paramount. Either way they failed big time in this task.

I do find it hard that they were so engaged that for 75 minutes they didn't not do a scan or hear any calls made to them. That just boggles the mind.

[jknight8907]

Believe me, this has crossed my mind a time or two.

Even if they didn't have their headsets on, and were listening on speakers, I still find it hard to believe that they didn't hear ATC or any other calls.


That's definitely a good question. Either is bad. Being distracted while on a computer, which against the airline rules, is probably better than having fallen asleep, which would be in violation of FAA regulations.

In short hand, maybe this:
Computer = Fired (or face heavy disciplinary action). Can still fly with their current airline or another airline.

Asleep = FAA license suspension. If permanent, their flying days are over.

dmr727, what do you think?

Not necessarily. The FAA could easily call this "careless & reckless", something that results in suspensions.

[yg17]

I was strictly looking at it from the pilot's perspective -- which excuse would put them in less hot water.

Safety of the passengers and crew is paramount. Either way they failed big time in this task.

I do find it hard that they were so engaged that for 75 minutes they didn't not do a scan or hear any calls made to them. That just boggles the mind.

I actually think the sleeping excuse might've been better. Whether it would've been true or not, they might have been able to pass it off as long hours, pilot fatigue and poor policies, pass some of the blame off to Delta, and gotten some sympathy from someone (albeit not many).

[jecapaga]

Good to hear the FAA laid the smack down on these guys. Licenses revoked.

[yg17]

Good to hear the FAA laid the smack down on these guys. Licenses revoked.

Great news. The only work these two will be allowed to do on an airplane is emptying the lavatories on the ground.

[ucfgrad93]

Good to hear the FAA laid the smack down on these guys. Licenses revoked.

Yep, hopefully the next step for them is getting fired.

Two Northwest Airlines pilots who flew 150 miles past their destination because they were focused on laptop computers instead of cockpit displays had their licenses revoked by the FAA.

Delta Air Lines Inc., which acquired Northwest last year, said in a statement that using laptops or engaging in activity unrelated to the pilots' command of the aircraft during flight is strictly against the airline's flight deck policies. The airline said violations of that policy will result in termination.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569867,00.html

[Gregg2]

I actually think the sleeping excuse might've been better.

...depending on whether or not it took more than 30 minutes to return to the Minneapolis airport. They were out of radio contact for 75 minutes, but I don't know where they were at the beginning of that period. It's been reported that they overshot the airport by 150 miles. I don't know how long that takes, plus they were put through some maneuvers, not a straight line between two points. Maybe they also didn't know which voice recorder they had on board, the 30 minute or the 2 hour type. So, they might have reasoned that if they claimed they were napping, the tape would betray them. In the end, it seems that they have answered the investigators' questions openly, after a small hiccup.

[yg17]

Yep, hopefully the next step for them is getting fired.


Well, if they don't have pilots licenses, I think that's pretty much the only choice NWA has. Or put them on toilet duty ;)

[sushi]

It's good to see that their licenses have been revoked.

I still have a hard time believing that it was simply due to them being so engrossed on their laptops and discussing company policy regarding crew scheduling. Seventy eight minutes is a very long time.

Must be a very complicated policy. :eek:

The pilots have 10 days to appeal the revocations, which are effective immediately, to the NTSB, the FAA said.

Article (http://edition.cnn.com/2009/US/10/27/airliner.fly.by/)

[yg17]

Must be a very complicated policy. :)

If it's anything like their baggage, frequent flyer mile earning and expiration, cancel/change tickets, delayed flights, canceled flights, missed connections, frequent flyer upgrades, lounge access or boarding policies, it is ;)

[dmr727]

I still have a hard time believing that it was simply due to them being so engrossed on their laptops and discussing company policy regarding crew scheduling.

So do I. However my wife did mention that when you have a laptop out on the tray, the screen does block the PFDs. ;)

[Peace]

I still have my theory but it won't get any traction.

[yg17]

I still have my theory but it won't get any traction.


They were out of communication with ATC for over an hour, I don't think anyone is that good :p

[dmr727]

A quality takeoff briefing:

"You stay on your side of the flight attendant, and don't touch my dick. Okay, let's go."

[sushi]

So do I.
:)

However my wife did mention that when you have a laptop out on the tray, the screen does block the PFDs. ;)
Okay, I've changed my idea. They were actually playing Aces High on line. They were engaged in a heated battle and focused on those cockpit instruments instead. :D

Interesting comment about PFDs and computer displays. Back in the day we didn't have those issues. :)

I still have my theory but it won't get any traction.
Might as well add for fun. Spill it.

[dmr727]

Interesting comment about PFDs and computer displays. Back in the day we didn't have those issues. :)


Yeah, the Airbus definitely encourages such behavior, with the tray table instead of a yoke. Anytime anyone asks my wife about flying the 319/320/321, she always says that while as a pilot it's completely lame, as someone that likes being comfortable on long trips, it's awesome!

It's funny how small the Airbus screens seem now. Back in 1990 the 320 was so revolutionary, but by today's standards the avionics are pretty antiquated.

[Peace]

:)


Okay, I've changed my idea. They were actually playing Aces High on line. They were engaged in a heated battle and focused on those cockpit instruments instead. :D

Interesting comment about PFDs and computer displays. Back in the day we didn't have those issues. :)


Might as well add for fun. Spill it.

Already did. I think there was a three-way going on.:p

[jessica.]

Say by chance this was the issue as they described. Perhaps there can be something said for quick mergers and policy change to a point where employees feel the need to distract themselves with such issue. Perhaps there needs to be some reassurance that other employees aren't as seemingly confused about the merger so there aren't future "training" sessions going on while in flight. Outlandish, yes, but still possible.

[aethelbert]

Say by chance this was the issue as they described. Perhaps there can be something said for quick mergers and policy change to a point where employees feel the need to distract themselves with such issue. Perhaps there needs to be some reassurance that other employees aren't as seemingly confused about the merger so there aren't future "training" sessions going on while in flight. Outlandish, yes, but still possible.
I can't really see how this could have much to do with the merger. Last I heard their scheduling databases were set to remain separate until their operating certificates were merged into Delta's name. On this issue at the moment, the only difference between now and eighteen months ago is that Delta is Northwest's parent company; all Northwest flights are still run with Northwest flight crews and the scheduling procedure hasn't been changed yet.

[sushi]

Maybe they had the upgraded cockpit version.

201043

(Airline buddy sent this to me. Just had to post it.)

[Aboo]

Maybe they had the upgraded cockpit version.

201043

(Airline buddy sent this to me. Just had to post it.)

Haha - only one flaw - that cockpit belongs to the A380, they were flying an A319/A320 I believe.

[yg17]

Haha - only one flaw - that cockpit belongs to the A380, they were flying an A319/A320 I believe.


Well, it's very similar except the A320 isn't as advanced. They have Budweiser instead of Heineken, Windows ME instead of XP, and Maury instead of Oprah.

[sushi]

Haha - only one flaw - that cockpit belongs to the A380, they were flying an A319/A320 I believe.
Yeah, I know. But still thought that it was too good not to post. :)

[Blue Velvet]

Patrick Smith over at Salon chips in:

To start with, airline policies vary as to what pilots are or aren't allowed to do during the cruise portion of flight, but most carriers, Northwest included, prohibit the use of laptops and other forms of personal entertainment. Indeed, the Federal Aviation Administration has revoked both pilots' airline transport licenses (they can later be eligible for reinstatement). Even still, how two pilots could have remained so distracted, for such a protracted length of time, is very difficult for me to understand.

Yes, the cockpit radios can sometimes remain quiet for long stretches, particularly when flying late at night or over remote areas. And yes, it is common for pilots to temporarily lose contact with ATC: We copy down the wrong frequency or mistakenly leave the volume down; we miss a handoff. But these are innocuous gaffes that generally resolve themselves after just a minute or two. For an hour to pass? On a short-haul domestic flight? Had they not noticed the absence of ATC? Were they not monitoring their position relative to the flight plan waypoints, right there on the plane's navigation screens?

Do airline pilots sometimes become distracted? Of course they do, just as any professional in any line of work occasionally becomes distracted, even in the middle of important duties. There is no such thing as a perfect flight; pilots make minor mistakes just like anybody else. But this was something different.

Just the same, I am more than a bit dismayed by the intense media focus on this story. There was no catastrophe. There was no near catastrophe. The plane was temporarily off-course during high-altitude cruise flight, under ATC watch above non-mountainous terrain. The crew made an embarrassing mistake, and will be punished accordingly, while the rest of us who fly for a living will draw important if obvious lessons. It was a comparatively minor event that has received far more attention than it deserves. I've been astounded by the level of traction. A week later and it's still above the fold. Reporters and pundits have been digging and digging for some nonexistent deeper meaning, asking if perhaps the event was a symptom of a frightening breakdown in air safety. One radio station even asked me if I thought the incident was related to "pilot stress" brought on by Northwest's ongoing merger with Delta.

No, I don't. I think it was what it was: a freak event.

Red herrings everywhere. I appeared on a talk show the other night with an aeronautics professor who began talking about cockpit automation, and how the downside of the high-tech flight deck is the propensity for pilots to grow bored. Modern avionics, she insinuated, were making this sort of incident more likely. Bollocks. Boredom and automation have little to do with one another. Boredom was a factor 60 years ago, when planes had rudimentary autopilots and propellers spun by pistons. It's going to be a factor in any profession where the bulk of tasks becomes repetitive and routine. We don't know exactly what happened over Minneapolis, but the fancy electronics of the Airbus A320 weren't the problem, trust me.

I operate eight-, nine-, even 12-hour nonstops all the time. There's a certain tedium that I expect and have to deal with. But is it because of the automation? No. If I had to have my hands on the wheel that whole time, I'd be twice as bored and 10 times as exhausted. And on the whole, Minneapolis notwithstanding, pilots are pretty good at the kind of self-discipline it requires to be alert for long periods of low workload. It's part of the job. (What's the best method for combating boredom? One word: conversation.)

Contrary to what people think, both boredom and fatigue (we'll get to the latter in a moment) are often easier to manage on long-haul flights than on shorter ones. Most flights over eight hours long carry augmented crews, allowing pilots to take organized rest breaks in a bunk room or designated crew seat. On a 12-hour nonstop from New York to Tel Aviv, a pilot will spend no more than three or four consecutive hours at a control seat, versus six hours on a trip between New York and San Francisco.

And the cockpit can be a busier place than you might imagine, even late at night over the middle of the ocean: There are ATC and company position reports to transmit and record, weather reports to check, arrival procedures to review and plan, aircraft systems to monitor, logbook issues to take care of, and so on.

More over here:
http://www.salon.com/technology/ask_the_pilot/index.html?story=/tech/col/smith/2009/10/29/askthepilot339

[dmr727]

Quoted from BV's post:

Just the same, I am more than a bit dismayed by the intense media focus on this story. There was no catastrophe. There was no near catastrophe. The plane was temporarily off-course during high-altitude cruise flight, under ATC watch above non-mountainous terrain. The crew made an embarrassing mistake, and will be punished accordingly, while the rest of us who fly for a living will draw important if obvious lessons.

Case in point, Delta put a 767 down on a taxiway in Atlanta that very same week, and the press pretty much ignored that situation to cover this. That mistake had a much higher chance of ending in catastrophe than this.

[Blue Velvet]

That mistake had a much higher chance of ending in catastrophe than this.


Patrick Smith, who I used to read regularly, has an ongoing beef with the way in which aviation stories are reported in the general media, rather than the trade press.

But his columns are always interesting to me, at least, and I guess his over-arching point about the way these stories are handled says more about feeding our fears and misconceptions about flying. In this case, it seems the idea that pilots were 'out of control' in some way is far more juicy because of its human interest factor.

[dmr727]

^^^ It's been awhile, but I believe it was you that introduced me to Patrick Smith. It's nice to see a professional pilot able to so clearly articulate many of the frustrations the industry has with the media.

[MooneyFlyer]

Quoted from BV's post:



Case in point, Delta put a 767 down on a taxiway in Atlanta that very same week, and the press pretty much ignored that situation to cover this. That mistake had a much higher chance of ending in catastrophe than this.

I was curious about this as well. It certainly didn't receive the coverage that I was expecting (someone told me about it and I had to search the archives).

Maybe part of the reason is that the media can sensationalize the "what if" and play to the inherent fears of flying while a plane is still in the air and the pilots are not paying attention (made for TV movie coming soon to channel 3 near you). The imaginative path to the potential outcome of an in-air incident is far more scary than a ground incident in most peoples minds I would imagine.

[theBB]

Patrick Smith over at Salon chips in:

Sure, nothing happened and it was a relatively safe terrain, but it could be a more dangerous terrain or the plane could have a malfunction. I've heard that minor equipment failures happen quite often and they are called minor as long as pilots take notice and respond properly. If these guys were out of it for 70 minutes, that sounds quite dangerous to me. Anyhow, media is sensationalist in general, not just about air travel, so there is no surprise there.

[yg17]

I was curious about this as well. It certainly didn't receive the coverage that I was expecting (someone told me about it and I had to search the archives).

Maybe part of the reason is that the media can sensationalize the "what if" and play to the inherent fears of flying while a plane is still in the air and the pilots are not paying attention (made for TV movie coming soon to channel 3 near you). The imaginative path to the potential outcome of an in-air incident is far more scary than a ground incident in most peoples minds I would imagine.

Most people probably don't know what a taxiway is or don't see the dangers of landing on one. But two pilots in the air not paying attention and flying 150 miles past the airport? That's something everyone understands and it makes for great sensationalist journalism.

[sushi]

Dedicated to the NWA pilots that overflew minneapolis by 150 miles....

Tweetin On A Jet Plane (http://www.thefump.com/embedded_player.swf?fumpID=1236)

[ucfgrad93]

Dedicated to the NWA pilots that overflew minneapolis by 150 miles....

Tweetin On A Jet Plane (http://www.thefump.com/embedded_player.swf?fumpID=1236)

Oh man, that was freaking hilarious!:D The video (http://www.thefump.com/video.php) was pretty good too.

[sushi]

Oh man, that was freaking hilarious!:D The video (http://www.thefump.com/video.php) was pretty good too.
Funny video as well. Thanks!