Hotel owner tells Hispanic workers to change names

[Tomorrow]

From Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_trouble_in_taos):

TAOS, N.M. – Larry Whitten marched into this northern New Mexico town in late July on a mission: resurrect a failing hotel.

The tough-talking former Marine immediately laid down some new rules. Among them, he forbade the Hispanic workers at the run-down, Southwestern adobe-style hotel from speaking Spanish in his presence (he thought they'd be talking about him), and ordered some to Anglicize their names.

No more Martin (Mahr-TEEN). It was plain-old Martin. No more Marcos. Now it would be Mark.

Whitten's management style had worked for him as he's turned around other distressed hotels he bought in recent years across the country.

The 63-year-old Texan, however, wasn't prepared for what followed.

His rules and his firing of several Hispanic employees angered his employees and many in this liberal enclave of 5,000 residents at the base of the Sangre de Cristo mountains, where the most alternative of lifestyles can find a home and where Spanish language, culture and traditions have a long and revered history.

"I came into this landmine of Anglos versus Spanish versus Mexicans versus Indians versus everybody up here. I'm just doing what I've always done," he says.

The article doesn't address what I think is the real issue - that the racism is on the part of the patrons who think that the workers should have Anglicized names.

I can follow his logic to a point, but this doesn't sound like a very smart move on his part.

[arkitect]

The tough-talking former Marine…
"I came into this landmine of Anglos versus Spanish versus Mexicans versus Indians versus everybody up here. I'm just doing what I've always done," he says.

I wonder what that could be… they can be glad he didn't napalm them.

Why the twunt couldn't just learn some Spanish? :confused:

[yg17]

Martin (Mar-teen) and Marcos are less strange than some of the names I've seen English speaking Americans give their children. :rolleyes:

[Tomorrow]

Martin (Mar-teen) and Marcos are less strange than some of the names I've seen English "Ebonics" speaking Americans give their children. :rolleyes:

I'm sure if we wait long enough, that will become a news story as well. :eek:

I don't know, I've lived in Texas for nearly 15 years. Spanish-sounding names spoken with Spanish-sounding accents are pretty damn common around here, so I don't think much of it.

I think the hotel owner is worried about a couple from, say, Michigan calling to reserve a room and talking to someone at the front desk named Isabel (ees-ah-BELL), and being put off by it. It sounds to me like he's pushing his own fears onto his hypothetical customers, and blaming them for it.

[Zombie Acorn]

My mother is a gm at a hotel, she says the hispanic workers work harder than most, but they do tend to talk in spanish in front of guests which is bad manners IMO. I don't know the point of changing their names though.

[Rodimus Prime]

I have no problem with requiring English at all time. Changing the name I feel crosses the line.

[yg17]

I have no problem with requiring English at all time.

Why? If they communicate better in Spanish, then they should be allowed to speak it. Instructions might get lost in translation and then the job doesn't end up being done properly.

[Zombie Acorn]

Why? If they communicate better in Spanish, then they should be allowed to speak it. Instructions might get lost in translation and then the job doesn't end up being done properly.

Its bad for business and generally bad manners, plain and simple. I don't invite you into my house and then talk to everyone around you in a foreign language. It leads to patrons thinking the help is talking about them especially if they are telling jokes etc.

[Queso]

Its bad for business and generally bad manners, plain and simple. I don't invite you into my house and then talk to everyone around you in a foreign language. It leads to patrons thinking the help is talking about them especially if they are telling jokes etc.
To be fair it is New Mexico. Don't most people there already speak Spanish?

[Tomorrow]

Its bad for business and generally bad manners, plain and simple. I don't invite you into my house and then talk to everyone around you in a foreign language. It leads to patrons thinking the help is talking about them especially if they are telling jokes etc.

I have met a handful of very insecure English speakers around here who feel the same way - even my wife, who has lived her entire life in Texas, used to feel that way.

Think of it this way: would they be talking about the patrons in Spanish if they thought there was any chance at all that the patron knows some Spanish? Because that's how it is around here - I'm sure a very high percentage of people around here who do not speak Spanish could pick out enough words from a conversation to know what's being said about them.

I might understand how it could be bad for business - maybe - but bad manners? I don't think so.

[Zombie Acorn]

To be fair it is New Mexico. Don't most people there already speak Spanish?

The hotel industry caters to more than just in-state patrons. If thats the attitude they are taking thats probably why they are going out of business. Everyone should know English, not everyone knows Spanish.

[Zombie Acorn]

I might understand how it could be bad for business - maybe - but bad manners? I don't think so.

You are inviting patrons in as paid guests and then speaking a language they do not understand. How is that not bad manners?

[Peterkro]

It leads to patrons thinking the help is talking about them especially if they are telling jokes etc.

The "help"? Do you live in some antebellum fantasy world?

[abijnk]

You are inviting patrons in as paid guests and then speaking a language they do not understand. How is that not bad manners?

I still haven't figured out how it is bad manners. :confused: If German "patrons" come to the hotel is the "help" then only allowed to speak German when they are around? Honestly, your point leads me to believe you are insecure, not that others have bad manners.

Changing names goes too far. Forcing the workers to speak a certain language to each other goes too far. Plain and simple.

[Ttownbeast]

The absurdity of this situation is that we are not allowed to assert the custom of language in our own country, we go abroad to foreign speaking nations and it is considered rude of us if we do not learn to speak their language(s) for the convenience of our host nations citizenry as visitors or immigrants. We're not on equal terms as hosts we're expected to comply with every one else's customs even within our own borders, but if we visit elsewhere they are not expected to comply with our customs--this is the case even when we are at war with somebody--we'll bomb the living crap out of them, but turn around and say "let's respect their culture, it's their land" well when settlers first arrived here that wasn't the cultural norm Europeans wiped out the natives and took it for themselves. I say if Mexicans want to speak Spanish in the U.S. and be a fair representative part of the nations population we march on Mexico city surprise the hell out of them and annex the entire country--then I'll be just fine with bilingualism because there would be enough citizens speaking two languages to make learning both necessary and convenient rather than forcing a majority to submit to minority.

[Badandy]

If there are a group of three friends and two of them speak German and you do not, it would be bad manners for them to communicate with each other in German. I don't quite understand what people don't get about that.

If the workers can speak appropriate English it's not unreasonable to ask to speak it in front of customers who we can most accurately assume speak English at a minimum.

[Rodimus Prime]

I still haven't figured out how it is bad manners. :confused: If German "patrons" come to the hotel is the "help" then only allowed to speak German when they are around? Honestly, your point leads me to believe you are insecure, not that others have bad manners.

Changing names goes too far. Forcing the workers to speak a certain language to each other goes too far. Plain and simple.


The requiring to change names I feel is against the law.

Requiring English is fine under the eyes of the law. I can see how it is annoying but at the same time I can understand why it is important. If they all speak Spanish (or another langage) and a guest wants help they feel they can not ask the workers because they will not understand them. But if they works are required to speak English then everyone knows that they can talk to them.

[yg17]

The hotel industry caters to more than just in-state patrons. If thats the attitude they are taking thats probably why they are going out of business. Everyone should know English, not everyone knows Spanish.

So when I went to Germany, even though the hotel staff spoke to me in English, did the hotel staff have bad manners when they talked to each other in German which I didn't understand a word of? :rolleyes:

It's a hotel. People from all around the world will be staying there, of course staff will not be speaking in the guests' native language.

[Badandy]

So when I went to Germany, even though the hotel staff spoke to me in English, did the hotel staff have bad manners when they talked to each other in German which I didn't understand a word of? :rolleyes:

If the majority of their customers spoke English exclusively and they spoke German in front of you (creates perceived barrier to communication), then yes, it's bad manners. Since it's in Germany, it's probably not rude to converse in German...

It's a hotel. People from all around the world will be staying there, of course staff will not be speaking in the guests' native language.

This is a random place in New Mexico. Not a whole lot of international tourism.

[Ttownbeast]

If there are a group of three friends and two of them speak German and you do not, it would be bad manners for them to communicate with each other in German. I don't quite understand what people don't get about that.

If the workers can speak appropriate English it's not unreasonable to ask to speak it in front of customers who we can most accurately assume speak English at a minimum.

it depends are the three friend in Germany or the United States in Germany it would be rude not to speak to them in German in the U.S. it is considered rude not to speak to them in German...well I guess it really doesn't depend then does it? actually that's pretty ****ed up.

[Badandy]

it depends are the three friend in Germany or the United States in Germany it would be rude not to speak to them in German in the U.S. it is considered rude not to speak to them in German...well I guess it really doesn't depend then does it? actually that's pretty ****ed up.

This isn't a hard concept.

When you're performing a service for someone or communicating with a group of people you should speak a universally understood language if you can. It's as simple as that, especially in a service industry.

FWIW, I am against the employees being forced to change their names.

[Tomorrow]

You are inviting patrons in as paid guests and then speaking a language they do not understand. How is that not bad manners?

If you're speaking TO the patrons in a language they don't understand, when you DO know their language, I can see that being bad manners.

If you ONLY know a language that the patrons don't speak, and you're speaking to your co-workers and NOT to the patrons, how is that bad manners?

When you're performing a service for someone or communicating with a group of people you should speak a universally understood language if you can. It's as simple as that, especially in a service industry.

QFT. Emphasis mine.

[abijnk]

If there are a group of three friends and two of them speak German and you do not, it would be bad manners for them to communicate with each other in German. I don't quite understand what people don't get about that.

If the workers can speak appropriate English it's not unreasonable to ask to speak it in front of customers who we can most accurately assume speak English at a minimum.

Your example is definitely one of bad manners, but it isn't relevant to the situation. If your example, you are a person in the group of people who is being excluded. We aren't talking about a situation where people are in a group and certain member are being excluded by way of a language barrier, we are talking about a much broader situation. Given the rules, if a guest is checking in at the front desk and two workers, who are not interacting with said guest, walk through the room they are expected to change their language from Spanish to English just because they are within earshot. That's really nit picky and honestly quite absurd.

[Queso]

The hotel industry caters to more than just in-state patrons. If that's the attitude they are taking that's probably why they are going out of business. Everyone should know English, not everyone knows Spanish.
That's very insular thinking. If the USA is going to grow economically you need to realise the world is becoming far more multi-polar. Would you demand English-only speaking hotel workers to learn Spanish in case some guests from Argentina turn up? If not, why not?

[Badandy]

That's very insular thinking. If the USA is going to grow economically you need to realise the world is becoming far more multi-polar. Would you demand English-only speaking hotel workers to learn Spanish in case some guests from Argentina turn up? If not, why not?

Because the hotel workers would be English-only speaking. If you can, speak a universally understood language so you don't exclude people. It's not that complicated.

Speak a language your guests can understand if you are able.

[Queso]

Because the hotel workers would be English-only speaking. If you can, speak a universally understood language so you don't exclude people. It's not that complicated.

Speak a language your guests can understand if you are able.
Come on, this is Spanish we're talking about, the most widely spoken language in the Western Hemisphere. It's not like the workers were speaking some obscure dialect from the jungles of northern Sumatra :p

[Ttownbeast]

Because the hotel workers would be English-only speaking. If you can, speak a universally understood language so you don't exclude people. It's not that complicated.

Speak a language your guests can understand if you are able.

I learned 2 languages English and ASL turns out there's more deaf people born in this country than immigrants and migrant labor and believe it or not sign language is not universal either each nation has its own. Even English speaking nations have totally different systems for their own deaf people. And separate cultures for the deaf within these nations on top of all that is the limit otherwise if you are capable of learning to speak a countries language when you interact with its people (not just restricting the issue to the hospitality industry) then do so, you don't just visit another country to sit around in the hotel the whole trip.

[TheAnswer]

No Español ehh???

Let's just hope that no one needs directions to the nearby Blood of Christ mountains, the neighboring towns Of The North, Mountain View, White and Saint Louis. Heaven help them if they want to travel further see the state capital Saint Faith or the beautiful state of Red-colored.

[Unspoken Demise]

Hmm. Ill just throw this opinion out there, because after reading the thread I thought of this as my opinion.

Making them change their name is wrong. It has no real logic behind it AFAIC.

However, speaking spanish in front of guests is rude. A senario I can imagine that turns patrons away from establishemnts is when hispanic workers are near a guest, have conversed with the guest in english, but then start talking amongst themselves, laughing about something funny they saw on TV. Well, the guess thinks they are laughing at them, not something else. This could make for a very angry guest.

If you live in this country, and you are fortunate enough to have a job, speak the language of the average customer, at least to their face. Companies go out of their way to have Spanish speaking employees to speak to Hispanic guests, why cant the spanish speakers speak English in front of guests, and Spanish amongst themselves?

Whatever, may be an unpopular opinion, but there you go.

[arkitect]

Whatever, may be an unpopular opinion, but there you go.

Well here's another unpopular opinion.

Perhaps Americans should get out more often…

Do Americans really have such self-esteem problems that when they hear people speak among themselves in a, OMG, foreign language they immediately assume they are being discussed and gossiped about? Seriously?
:confused:

If someone speaks to me in English and talks among themselves in Russian, Vietnamese, American etc, do I take that as an insult? No.
I mean if these so-called "rude Hispanics" are actively pointing and laughing… well… perhaps. :rolleyes:

[Lord Blackadder]

The subtitle to this thread should be "Hispanic workers tell hotel owner to "vas al infierno"" :D

I have no problem with the hotel owner requiring the staff to speak English in an English-speaking country, but I think asking them to change their names steps across the line.

I know it is relatively common for immigrants to alter their surnames to make them more familiar to the English tongue, but it should be a decision made by the person, not his employer. Hispanic people have been living in the US since the Louisiana purchase...besides, with Latinos having been major baseball stars for decades, are names like Martinez so very foreign to us? Come on, people.

[Tomorrow]

Do Americans really have such self-esteem problems that when they hear people speak among themselves in a, OMG, foreign language they immediately assume they are being discussed and gossiped about? Seriously?

I don't know whether you're being facetious, but yes, many Americans are. It doesn't bother me because I know just enough Spanish to pick up that after they talk to me in English, whatever they turn and say to each other in Spanish is absolutely irrelevant to their conversation with me - it could be something about what their kids did last night, or where they're going to lunch, something inane like that.

Like I said earlier, many Americans can pick up enough words out of a Spanish conversation to know whether they're being talked about. I don't think many Spanish speakers would risk "being caught" talking about a customer in Spanish that way.

[arkitect]

I don't know whether you're being facetious, but yes, many Americans are.

No. I wasn't being facetious. I was being serious.

And if they really are then they'd better start watching less TV and get themselves to a gym or shrink…
:rolleyes:

[takao]

1. changing names is ridiculous enough said

2. about speaking languages in hotels: having staff speak the language of your customers is the way to go ... going to a language which neither is native should always be the last resort

3. about conversations with mixed language: i had that just 1,5 weeks ago with 5 german 'native' speakers and a canadian on a cocktail night and it's ridiculous hard to keep to english all the time. Especially if the "german native" speakers come from different regions of different countries and have varying degrees of english skills
it seems like in discussions or for fast snappy remarks a brain always switches back to native tongue

[chris200x9]

If he fired them for being hispanic that's bad, but if he was just like "change your name at work" I see nothing wrong with it. My name is chris but if I worked at a hotel and my boss was like while you're at work you will be donald I'd be ok with it.

[takao]

Like I said earlier, many Americans can pick up enough words out of a Spanish conversation to know whether they're being talked about. I don't think many Spanish speakers would risk "being caught" talking about a customer in Spanish that way.

yet abroad Americans have no problems either talking about others right next to them in plain english, thinking that nobody unterstands them ;)

[Unspoken Demise]

If he fired them for being hispanic that's bad, but if he was just like "change your name at work" I see nothing wrong with it. My name is chris but if I worked at a hotel and my boss was like while you're at work you will be donald I'd be ok with it.

You know, I agree with you that I wouldnt care. Just keep signing the pay checks. I'll be Sally Sasafras if it means you put the pen to my check.

[yg17]

Like I said earlier, many Americans can pick up enough words out of a Spanish conversation to know whether they're being talked about. I don't think many Spanish speakers would risk "being caught" talking about a customer in Spanish that way.

Given how many Americans are either fluent in Spanish or can at least pick up bits and pieces, especially in the southwest, it would be extremely stupid to talk bad about someone in Spanish. You might be able to get away with it if you're speaking Swahili or something like that, but not Spanish.

In fact, it's best to just not risk it at all. I was once talking to a guy at a store who was telling me this story. He's American, born and raised here, you would never assume he spoke another language, anyways, a German speaking couple came in, but spoke to him in English, and he helped them in English. But while he was ringing up their purchase, they started talking amongst themselves in German and saying some pretty bad things about him (I don't remember the details of what they said, but I think they were upset that the checkout line wasn't moving as fast as they liked and were insulting him personally over it, all in German. Something stupid like that.) and after ringing up their purchase, in English, he said "Have a good day" and then right after that, in perfect German, said "Oh, by the way, next time you talk **** about someone in another language in front of them, you better make sure they don't speak it first"

[Lord Blackadder]

If he fired them for being hispanic that's bad, but if he was just like "change your name at work" I see nothing wrong with it. My name is chris but if I worked at a hotel and my boss was like while you're at work you will be donald I'd be ok with it.

Anyone who has problems with my name can go to hell, plain and simple. There's nothing offensive about it. I wouldn't have a problem changing my given name in another country, but my surname is what it is.

yet abroad Americans have no problems either talking about others right next to them in plain english, thinking that nobody unterstands them

I hope that's not the way most of us behave....:o

Monolingual English-speakers are victims of the success of their language - if I go abroad almost everyone can understand what I say to at least a certain extent but I can't understand anything other people say. I have a little Spanish - enough for an emergency - but I'd like to gain fluency in something one of these days.

[iBlue]

Just this once I actually took the time to write out a longer post about this but the Mac Pro decided to have its first kernel panic just as I was previewing it. :rolleyes:

I think the request to change names is absurd but asking your employees to speak english (if they can) around english speaking guests doesn't seem THAT out of line. In some situations it can come across as rude, sort of in the same vein as whispering in someone's ear in front of others who are not privy to what you're saying.

I also know from experience that sometimes you ARE being talked about. It's always fun to surprise someone by speaking back in their language.

[takao]

I hope that's not the way most of us behave....:o

luckily not ... but i can't comment much since during the summer holidays when many are here for summer school ... well i'm off to holiday ;)


Monolingual English-speakers are victims of the success of their language - if I go abroad almost everyone can understand what I say to at least a certain extent but I can't understand anything other people say. I have a little Spanish - enough for an emergency - but I'd like to gain fluency in something one of these days.

that is always true even with other languages .. just like many italian/spanish coast cities nearly transform into german colonies during the summer

funny thing in Austria: with austria being better off economical over the last few years than germany it has been popular for eastern germans to come to the winter resorts for seasonal work or even immigration ... in fact so many come that most staff is now from germany (which often don't understand the native dialect :rolleyes:)

[samcraig]

Would people's opinion change if this was a CSR company?

Would it be ok to insist that your employees speak english at a call center? Or use a name that has perhaps a less of a chance of being misunderstood?

I'm not advocating - I'm just asking here.

As for chatter in a foreign language - let me address this as I am American and I do travel internationally. Whether it's in a foreign tongue or my native tongue - I think that many individuals in the workforce "share" too much information while in a guests presence. I don't really care to hear whether or not you enjoy your job, what went wrong that day, what went right that day, how your commute was etc really. THAT is the part that's unprofessional. Especialyl speaking about topics that shouldn't be discussed in front of a guest. Is it so hard to wait until the guest leaves before re-engaging or engaging in a conversation? Again - doesn't matter what language it's in.

If I'm on a plane - as obnoxious as it sounds - I don't need or want to hear the flight attendants moaning about their hours, customers, visits to the doctors, etc. Sorry - but I don't. And that's not a LANGUAGE issue. I don't care if it's in English or Spanish or French. It's not necc. Save it for when you're in private.

[Little HZ]

This is a random place in New Mexico. Not a whole lot of international tourism.

Actually, Taos IS an international tourist destination--one of the premiere tourism destination sites in the American Southwest. Many, many tourists come to New Mexico in part **because** of its cultural diversity. By and large it is a state that prizes its multicultural heritage.

Whitten's action fly in the face of long-standing local traditions of cultural tolerance and openness and undermine the very nature of what brings many tourists to New Mexico!! :rolleyes:

[Lord Blackadder]

luckily not ... but i can't comment much since during the summer holidays when many are here for summer school ... well i'm off to holiday ;)

I know quite a few people who have gone to Europe as students. It seems like more and more of them are choosing Eastern European schools these days because it is cheaper.

funny thing in Austria: with austria being better off economical over the last few years than germany it has been popular for eastern germans to come to the winter resorts for seasonal work or even immigration ... in fact so many come that most staff is now from germany (which often don't understand the native dialect :rolleyes:)

I have to admit I didn't realize that Austrian German can differ enough from "German" German as to be unintelligible...I never thought a German would have trouble understanding people in Austria! I guess I always thought Germany and Austria were like the US and Canada - same language with only tiny differences in dialect.

[Tomorrow]

I also know from experience that sometimes you ARE being talked about. It's always fun to surprise someone by speaking back in their language.

I had it happen to me once, back when I was teaching. A week or so into the new quarter of classes, two girls were talking to each other in Spanish. I couldn't pick up everything they were saying, but they were very clearly talking to each other about the assignment they were working on. Then, I heard one of them ask the other whether she thought I could understand them, and I answered (in English) "Yes, I can." They both laughed out loud, embarrassed, and most of the rest of the class laughed as well. Nobody ever stopped speaking Spanish in front of me, though - it never bothered me that they would do it. :)

[takao]

I have to admit I didn't realize that Austrian German can differ enough from "German" German as to be unintelligible...I never thought a German would have trouble understanding people in Austria! I guess I always thought Germany and Austria were like the US and Canada - same language with only tiny differences in dialect.

well there are enough problems within austria already since the difference between "written german" and spoken one can be huge depending on the region .. especially since television usually is very Vienna/eastern centric if there is any dialect used at all
so i can understand people around Vienna only with minor problems but it doesn't work the other way around

where i grew up 'german' is sometimes considered "first foreign language" in school ;)

[Lord Blackadder]

where i grew up 'german' is sometimes considered "first foreign language" in school ;)

Interesting. Mind you, some parts of the American South are hard for a Northerner like myself to understand (and even when we do we pretend we can't ;)), and people who are not native English speakers find the Southern dialects extremely hard to understand.

[Queso]

where i grew up 'german' is sometimes considered "first foreign language" in school ;)
As opposed to your neighbouring Alto Adige, where Italian is considered foreign :D

[yg17]

Interesting. Mind you, some parts of the American South are hard for a Northerner like myself to understand (and even when we do we pretend we can't ;)), and people who are not native English speakers find the Southern dialects extremely hard to understand.

2 words: West Virginia. I live in a southern-ish state and lived in a rural part for 4 years and got pretty good at understanding even the most butchered forms of the English language you'll find south of the Mason-Dixon line, but I was driving through WV a couple months ago, stopped for gas, and some guy at the pump next to me started talking to me and I literally did not understand a single word he said. It was like Boomhauer on King of the Hill was talking. He might as well have been talking to me in Korean because I wouldn't have understood him any less than I did.

[Tomorrow]

2 words: West Virginia. I live in a southern-ish state and lived in a rural part for 4 years and got pretty good at understanding even the most butchered forms of the English language you'll find south of the Mason-Dixon line, but I was driving through WV a couple months ago, stopped for gas, and some guy at the pump next to me started talking to me and I literally did not understand a single word he said. It was like Boomhauer on King of the Hill was talking. He might as well have been talking to me in Korean because I wouldn't have understood him any less than I did.

My mother's family is from West Virginia. I can TOTALLY vouch for this. :eek:

[Lord Blackadder]

Oddly enough, half of my mother's family also comes from WV, and I can vouch for this language butchery too. They fought for the Union, but you wouldn't know it if you went there. :eek:

I have some friends from Kentucky and they are not nearly as bad as the West Virginians. I've met my West Virginian relatives and they are true hillbillies.

[yg17]

Oddly enough, half of my mother's family also comes from WV, and I can vouch for this language butchery too. They fought for the Union, but you wouldn't know it if you went there. :eek:

I have some friends from Kentucky and they are not nearly as bad as the West Virginians. I've met my West Virginian relatives and they are true hillbillies.

Considering it's WV....is your mother's family the same as your father's family? :D

[Lord Blackadder]

Considering it's WV....is your mother's family the same as your father's family? :D

Fortunately, three quarters of my family does not come from West Virginia, so my genetic background remains solid.;)

[skinnylegs]

Fire 'em all and hire Vietnamese 'peeps!

[Wotan31]

This story is kind of bizarre and a bit silly, but hardly news worthy. Texas and NM both border Mexico. I would think most people living there would want to be fluent in both languages. Go to europe and that's exactly what you'll see near the borders, is towns and communities that speak both languages. Kind of bizarre for the hotel owner to ask the workers to stop speaking spanish. If I were a worker there, I'd tell him to go F himself. In spanish. :D But this is hardly something newsworthy.

[leekohler]

This story is kind of bizarre and a bit silly, but hardly news worthy. Texas and NM both border Mexico. I would think most people living there would want to be fluent in both languages. Go to europe and that's exactly what you'll see near the borders, is towns and communities that speak both languages. Kind of bizarre for the hotel owner to ask the workers to stop speaking spanish. If I were a worker there, I'd tell him to go F himself. In spanish. :D But this is hardly something newsworthy.

This may be the first time we've ever agreed.

[Wotan31]

This may be the first time we've ever agreed.
Actually I think its the second. ;) First was about the silly people who think gun bans will reduce crime.

[leekohler]

Actually I think its the second. ;) First was about the silly people who think gun bans will reduce crime.

That would be another. ;)

[Badandy]

And a friendship is born...

[Rodimus Prime]

This story is kind of bizarre and a bit silly, but hardly news worthy. Texas and NM both border Mexico. I would think most people living there would want to be fluent in both languages. Go to europe and that's exactly what you'll see near the borders, is towns and communities that speak both languages. Kind of bizarre for the hotel owner to ask the workers to stop speaking spanish. If I were a worker there, I'd tell him to go F himself. In spanish. :D But this is hardly something newsworthy.

Why do people who live in the northern states think everyone who lives in the boarder state with Mexico speaks Spanish? Are people really that stupid.

The truth is most people who live in the boarder states speak English and English only. Minus people who move to the US most of them never learned Spanish.

[rhett7660]

^^ Because you know EVERYONE in Southern California also speaks spanish...... :rolleyes: Especially those located in San Diego....

[Ttownbeast]

yet abroad Americans have no problems either talking about others right next to them in plain english, thinking that nobody unterstands them ;)

Very true we talk a lot of **** when we visit other nations safe to assume it's not impossible that a visitor here wouldn't make fun of us "gringo's" but we cannot get insulted we're not allowed to, but it's OK for everyone else.

[Ttownbeast]

Interesting. Mind you, some parts of the American South are hard for a Northerner like myself to understand (and even when we do we pretend we can't ;)), and people who are not native English speakers find the Southern dialects extremely hard to understand.
As I mentioned about sign language earlier there is the issue of dialects within that language as well, almost as distinctively different for each time zone one crosses, the same with English alone in the U.S. it was standard practice to hire TV and radio news anchors with a very flat mid western accent because they could be more easily understood on public broadcasts any where in the country as compared to somebody with a thick New England(Bostonian, Brooklyn, etc.), Southern, South Western, or Pacific Northwest Dialect--and those freaks in northern Minnesota with their bastardized Midwest Canadian accents.

The plains states (midwest) speak the clearest understandable English very little error in the language as spoken and nearly universally understood, southerners have a considerable drawl (where you becomes you all or YAWWL), new Englanders vary from the Kennedy's over enunciation of vowels (never say you have a "hat on" around Maine or Massachusetts that might get a drink thrown in your face or arrested) to transposing letters of pronounced words (asking for something in New Jersey comes out "aksing" or "axing"), Pacific northwesterners tend to speak slowly and shorten words (Washington becomes Washintin, Oregon becomes Orgun, Idaho--screw Idaho everybody hates them), the southwest is a combination of the southern with a few Spanish things threw in (except California like Idaho they can go screw themselves) this does not count Alaska and Hawaii of course

[Zombie Acorn]

The "help"? Do you live in some antebellum fantasy world?

The help aka workers. The fact that this is what you chose to pick apart is pretty funny.

So when I went to Germany, even though the hotel staff spoke to me in English, did the hotel staff have bad manners when they talked to each other in German which I didn't understand a word of? :rolleyes:

It's a hotel. People from all around the world will be staying there, of course staff will not be speaking in the guests' native language.

You miss the point and your example does not parallel what my argument is.

That's very insular thinking. If the USA is going to grow economically you need to realise the world is becoming far more multi-polar. Would you demand English-only speaking hotel workers to learn Spanish in case some guests from Argentina turn up? If not, why not?

No, because the chances of it happening are slim, we are in America a predominantly English country, business is done almost 100% in English.

Your ideologies do not translate to business, especially the hospitality industry. Then again if you want to lose customers because your staff is speaking a language foreign to a large majority of your guests even though they know English, go right ahead, I am sure another hotel down the street would love your customers.

[Counterfit]

This story is kind of bizarre and a bit silly, but hardly news worthy. Texas and NM both border Mexico.

Heck, they used to be Mexico.

[Lord Blackadder]

Heck, they used to be Mexico.

We might be better off if they still were.

[Tomorrow]

We might be better off if they still were.

And just as easily, you might not.

Well, okay - maybe if New Mexico was. ;)

[Jason Beck]

^^ Because you know EVERYONE in Southern California also speaks spanish...... :rolleyes: Especially those located in San Diego....


LOL I miss socal... I was born and raised in Escondido, and then moved to
freaking Utah when I was 18, in 1998. Man it sucks here. I am leaving after
I graduate.

Ever seen a paligamist?

LOL

[Queso]

Your ideologies do not translate to business, especially the hospitality industry.
Except that of course they do, in a sensible country.

[Eraserhead]

Except that of course they do, in a sensible country.

Yet if you are going to work in the tourism industry and be successful, especially in accommodation, you are going to be fluent in English - certainly if you want foreign tourists, whether you are in Chennai, Chongqing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chongqing), London or Arica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arica).

Now sure the cleaners don't need to be fluent, but the front desk staff do.

[Zombie Acorn]

Except that of course they do, in a sensible country.

No, they don't. If I was in germany and 95% of my patrons spoke german i would not allow my workers to speak russian in front of the customers. Sensible business sense.

[callmemike20]

You know what would solve all of these problems?


Make English the national language! Learn it, speak it, or GTFO.

[CalBoy]

You know what would solve all of these problems?


Make English the national language! Learn it, speak it, or GTFO.

This kind of exaggerated response is not new or unique. At many points in the history of this nation, the majority have not spoken English. Large waves of immigration to the United States is not a 21st Century phenomenon. Your cry of mandating a national language has been heard by many people across many periods of time.

You'll notice two things, however: 1)English has never been made the national language by Federal law, and 2) English has not only dominated but thrived here and around the globe.

What's more, mandating a national language would do nothing to solve this problem. These workers were engaging in conversation among themselves. A Federal law recognizing English as the national language would be rather impotent at best; it might mandate certain forms to be English-only, and perhaps the requirements of certain jobs would include English (as if they don't in a de facto sense already). You can't stop people from conversing in a second language.


Now, to the point of the story at hand: I do think it's rude whenever you say something that can be heard, but which not everyone can understand (I believe Blue mentioned something about a whisper? that analogy fits very well here). The workers could have withheld their remarks until the customers were out of sight, because to be honest, even if they had been whispering jokes to each other and snickering, it would have been just as rude. The question isn't the language they communicated with, it's whether or not their actions can be deemed rude, and I'd say they can be.

Now, as someone who has a few languages under his belt, I can honestly say that people do tend to get "comfortable" with the fact that they know another language and will often times say inappropriate things about someone right in front of them. If you have a good ear, you can pick some things out and figure out what the conversation is about because most languages today use English for technology and several other modern concepts. Tone is also universal, and it's quite easy to tell when someone has pleasant or unpleasant things to say about you.

[rhett7660]

This kind of exaggerated response is not new or unique. At many points in the history of this nation, the majority have not spoken English. Large waves of immigration to the United States is not a 21st Century phenomenon. Your cry of mandating a national language has been heard by many people across many periods of time.

You'll notice two things, however: 1)English has never been made the national language by Federal law, and 2) English has not only dominated but thrived here and around the globe.

What's more, mandating a national language would do nothing to solve this problem. These workers were engaging in conversation among themselves. A Federal law recognizing English as the national language would be rather impotent at best; it might mandate certain forms to be English-only, and perhaps the requirements of certain jobs would include English (as if they don't in a de facto sense already). You can't stop people from conversing in a second language.


Now, to the point of the story at hand: I do think it's rude whenever you say something that can be heard, but which not everyone can understand (I believe Blue mentioned something about a whisper? that analogy fits very well here). The workers could have withheld their remarks until the customers were out of sight, because to be honest, even if they had been whispering jokes to each other and snickering, it would have been just as rude. The question isn't the language they communicated with, it's whether or not their actions can be deemed rude, and I'd say they can be.

Now, as someone who has a few languages under his belt, I can honestly say that people do tend to get "comfortable" with the fact that they know another language and will often times say inappropriate things about someone right in front of them. If you have a good ear, you can pick some things out and figure out what the conversation is about because most languages today use English for technology and several other modern concepts. Tone is also universal, and it's quite easy to tell when someone has pleasant or unpleasant things to say about you.

Very well said. Couldn't agree more.

[Queso]

Now sure the cleaners don't need to be fluent, but the front desk staff do.
Now here's someone that understands.

[yg17]

You know what would solve all of these problems?


Make English the national language! Learn it, speak it, or GTFO.

Making English the official language won't require people holding a conversation to speak English or anyone living here to know English. All it really does is require that the laws, official government documents and forms, etc, are in English, and guess what, they already are.

You people on the right keep whining about how English should be our official language. It wouldn't change ANYTHING if it was. It wouldn't even get rid of "For English, press one. Para Espanol, oprima el dos" which I'm sure you hate so much.

[rhett7660]

Making English the official language won't require people holding a conversation to speak English or anyone living here to know English. All it really does is require that the laws, official government documents and forms, etc, are in English, and guess what, they already are.

You people on the right keep whining about how English should be our official language. It wouldn't change ANYTHING if it was. It wouldn't even get rid of "For English, press one. Para Espanol, oprima el dos" which I'm sure you hate so much.

Um... have you been to your local California DMV (State Government run facility), they have the books, laws and tests in about 40+ different languages. Lets not forget going down to your local county hall of admin. Why don't you take a visit and see all the different languages one can pick from for every form, book and pamphlet that they give out.

[CalBoy]

Um... have you been to your local California DMV (State Government run facility), they have the books, laws and tests in about 40+ different languages. Lets not forget going down to your local county hall of admin. Why don't you take a visit and see all the different languages one can pick from for every form, book and pamphlet that they give out.

I don't understand what your point is here.

yg17 merely stated that all government documents are already in English, and that is true even for California. A multitude of other languages may be present, but so is English.

And, I think it would good for you to recall that by constitutional amendment (not that that means much more than a statute in California), English is the official language of California.

[Zombie Acorn]

Making English the official language won't require people holding a conversation to speak English or anyone living here to know English. All it really does is require that the laws, official government documents and forms, etc, are in English, and guess what, they already are.

You people on the right keep whining about how English should be our official language. It wouldn't change ANYTHING if it was. It wouldn't even get rid of "For English, press one. Para Espanol, oprima el dos" which I'm sure you hate so much.

Just as they are free to have spanish instructions to grab market share and provide better service, they should be allowed to restrict their employees to a language the majority of their patrons know.

[yg17]

I don't understand what your point is here.

yg17 merely stated that all government documents are already in English, and that is true even for California. A multitude of other languages may be present, but so is English.

And, I think it would good for you to recall that by constitutional amendment (not that that means much more than a statute in California), English is the official language of California.

Yes, exactly. That's all making an official language would do, require them to be available in English, which they already are.

[rhett7660]

I don't understand what your point is here.

yg17 merely stated that all government documents are already in English, and that is true even for California. A multitude of other languages may be present, but so is English.

And, I think it would good for you to recall that by constitutional amendment (not that that means much more than a statute in California), English is the official language of California.

Sorry mis read what he had said... I was thinking it was ONLY going to be in English.. hence my response.

After re-reading it.........point taken. Sorry bout that.