Apple Closing Quickly on Research in Motion in Smart Phone Market Share

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/10/27/apple-closing-quickly-on-research-in-motion-in-smart-phone-market-share/)

Market research firm ChangeWave today released its latest quarterly Consumer Smart Phone survey (http://www.investorplace.com/changewave-alliance/articles/smart-phone-market-aapl-palm-rimm.html), which includes survey data taken in mid-September highlighting market share trends for Research in Motion, Apple, and Palm.In the horserace among manufacturers, the release of the iPhone 3GS has led to a big jump in smart phone market share for Apple and has placed them within striking distance of Research In Motion -- whose slew of models are still number one but have fallen to their lowest level in two years.The report is an expanded analysis of data touched upon (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/09/23/surveys-point-to-mac-and-iphone-sales-momentum-strong-tablet-interest/) in September that showed Apple's smart phone market share rising from 25% to 30% between June and September. The new analysis compares iPhone market share to the performance of Research in Motion, which has trended slightly down to currently stand at 40%, and Palm, which appears to be stabilizing at approximately 7% of the market after a steep decline from its leadership position earlier this decade.


http://images.macrumors.com/article/2009/10/27/170007-rim_apple_palm_share.gif

Overall, smart phone growth continues, with 39% of surveyed mobile phone owners reporting owning a smart phone, up from 37% in the previous quarter, and a continuation of a clear trend extending back many years as smart phones have continued to gain more enticing capabilities at lower price points.


http://images.macrumors.com/article/2009/10/27/170007-smart_phone_share.gif

Apple also appears poised to continue to eat into Research in Motion's lead in the smart phone market, with 36% of survey respondents planning to purchase a smart phone in the next 90 days looking to purchase an iPhone, with only 27% of those interested in Research in Motion's BlackBerry. The numbers represent a decline from the 44%-23% advantage held by Apple in the previous quarter, but as the report notes, the decline is due to a natural tapering off of enthusiasm after the iPhone 3GS launch and is actually a much smaller decline than was observed after the launch of the iPhone 3G last year.


http://images.macrumors.com/article/2009/10/27/170007-smart_phone_planned_purchases.gif



Article Link: Apple Closing Quickly on Research in Motion in Smart Phone Market Share (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/10/27/apple-closing-quickly-on-research-in-motion-in-smart-phone-market-share/)

[thegoldenmackid]

I suspect that it will be neck and neck around the time of the new iPhone.

[Povilas]

Bad Apple :D

[KingYaba]

What the heck happened to Palm?

[ChazUK]

What the heck happened to Palm?

I was wondering that too.

Who's marketshare is Apple mostly eating in to?

Impressive performance from Apple nonetheless.

[philipt42]

No real surprises here, everyone I know who is getting a smartphone is getting an iPhone, but it is a little weird palm doesn't have a bit more.

[entropys]

Intersting interpretation. To me it looks like Apple hasn't hurt RIM all that much (% market share belonging to RIM hasn't changed all that much), but has caused Palm no end of grief and it doesn't provide any info on Symbian, Android or Winmo.

Not enough info here to be useful.

The key RIM advantage of course is that many workplaces will not allow or provide an iphone for their network, but will allow/provide a RIM device.

[BongoBanger]

What the heck happened to Palm?

Nothing to offer and the Pre was too little, too late.

RIM seem fairly static - it seems Apple have hoovered up Palm's market and the odd RIM customer here and there in the main. Does this include corporate sales? I would imagine not.

Intersting interpretation. To me it looks like Apple hasn't hurt RIM all that much (% market share belonging to RIM hasn't changed all that much), but has caused Palm no end of grief and it doesn't provide any info on Symbian, Android or Winmo.

Not enough info here to be useful.

True - there's 23% missing. Given that this is a US survey one would assume Symbian will have very little share which leaves the rest between Android and WinMo. It's strange that they don't show their numbers.

[OllyW]

Is this global market share or just the U.S. market?

[Rodimus Prime]

While great news for fanboys to scream about. Something that must be pointed out is RIM's main focus is the bussiness market not the conusumer market. That market is much much smaller and Apple lets face it sucks in that market. Apple is aiming at the Consumer market.

Another thing is the Bussiness market is saturated already. Consumer market is new to the smart phone and growing in how many people want them.

Sum it up. Apple is not really stealing marketshare from RIM since Apple is not taking anything away in the bussiness market. Plus RIM is selling more phones ever quarter so it is still growing.

[RazHyena]

While great news for fanboys to scream about. Something that must be pointed out is RIM's main focus is the bussiness market not the conusumer market. That market is much much smaller and Apple lets face it sucks in that market. Apple is aiming at the Consumer market.

Another thing is the Bussiness market is saturated already. Consumer market is new to the smart phone and growing in how many people want them.

Sum it up. Apple is not really stealing marketshare from RIM since Apple is not taking anything away in the bussiness market. Plus RIM is selling more phones ever quarter so it is still growing.

ROFL.

You got anything to back that drivel up? I'm seeing plenty of people using their iPhones for work and at the corporate level.

Man the MSfanbois are just camping this site today!

[spazzcat]

What the heck happened to Palm?

It died years ago...

[Ironduke]

1 more year and apple will be the daddy.

You could say they are going to shoot it in off the rim.:D

giggady

[Lesser Evets]

Compared to all the Palm stuff I had across the years, the iPhone kicks ass so bad.

When's the first MS troll going to come here and say Apple is failing and MS is doing it right? As they do with every thread.

[Icaras]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 3_1_2 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/528.18 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0 Mobile/7D11 Safari/528.16)

What the heck happened to Palm?

It died years ago...

I heard the pre is going to dress up as the iPhone for halloween...

[RazHyena]

Compared to all the Palm stuff I had across the years, the iPhone kicks ass so bad.

When's the first MS troll going to come here and say Apple is failing and MS is doing it right? As they do with every thread.

Post #10

[RebootD]

Congrats to Apple but until the iPhone can multitask like my Pre I'm happy to stick with my 'too little too late but I can listen to Pandora while pushing multiple email accounts in real-time and surfing the web' phone. ;)

[theheadguy]

ROFL.
You got anything to back that drivel up? I'm seeing plenty of people using their iPhones for work and at the corporate level.
Man the MSfanbois are just camping this site today!
Oh gee, I don't know... common sense? You obviously don't work at a corporation. Most people with company issued cell phones are all on BBs. If there is a small company that issues them, we usually have someone like you who runs to the forums to make a story out of it.

It's ok to have competitors, you know. As I type on this thread I happily do it with a MBP, but I don't have the hate in me that so many of you do when it comes to MS. It's like there is a race to who can point out the trolls first, when in fact, that itself is trolling.

[RebootD]

Oh gee, I don't know... common sense? You obviously don't work at a corporation. Most people with company issued cell phones are all on BBs. If there is a small company that issues them, we usually have someone like you who runs to the forums to make a story out of it.

I can only speak from my circle of friends and colleagues but most corporate users are given BB phones by default. If they have an iPhone (and several of them do) it's their secondary phone outside of work.

[BongoBanger]

Why do people start moaning about Microsoft when they're not even mentioned in the article? It's old.

[alywa]

Who's marketshare is Apple mostly eating in to?



As far as overall marketshare, apple is taking share from BB, Palm, and WM. However, the real picture is that the smartphone market is growing rapidly, and apple is garnering a larger percentage of the overall growth. Not so much that the other's user base is shrinking, it is jut not growing as quickly as iPhone's.

[cumanzor]

ROFL.

You got anything to back that drivel up? I'm seeing plenty of people using their iPhones for work and at the corporate level.

Man the MSfanbois are just camping this site today!

Wow oh my God! I didn't know Microsoft was even remotely related to RIM.

Thanks, you've made my life so much better!!

GO APPLE!!!

[ArtOfWarfare]

Why's the last graph so small?

It's a tad difficult to make out at that size...

[RazHyena]

Oh gee, I don't know... common sense? You obviously don't work at a corporation. Most people with company issued cell phones are all on BBs. If there is a small company that issues them, we usually have someone like you who runs to the forums to make a story out of it.

It's ok to have competitors, you know. As I type on this thread I happily do it with a MBP, but I don't have the hate in me that so many of you do when it comes to MS. It's like there is a race to who can point out the trolls first, when in fact, that itself is trolling.

So, what you're saying is, you don't believe businesses are giving their employees the option of an issued iPhone? :rolleyes: We won't go into how idiotic that is, but I can tell you it's untrue.

And although I do not have an iPhone now, I will have the option of choosing one when service becomes available here. I will be reimbursed partially for it's purchase. 75% of the price will be covered.

Edit: One other thing, AT&T has no coverage here yet, (It's Montana) so if someone wants an iPhone, they would need to essentially jailbreak it using one of the services here and then apply for reimbursement with their respective companies. Once AT&T is established here, the process will be more streamlined. But anyone wanted an iPhone has to do a lot of the legwork themselves. Still, that's not stopping many from doing it.

[RazHyena]

Wow oh my God! I didn't know Microsoft was even remotely related to RIM.

Thanks, you've made my life so much better!!

GO APPLE!!!

...well, to be honest, it isn't :o I'm just noticing a high volume of people slamming anything apple related on these forums over the past three days.

[Rodimus Prime]

ROFL.

You got anything to back that drivel up? I'm seeing plenty of people using their iPhones for work and at the corporate level.

Man the MSfanbois are just camping this site today!

Thank you for just adding the image that Apple fans are mindless idiots and can not think for themselves....

Point out a flaw in something and you get called a troll, a MSfan boy.
Btw RIM has nothing to do with MS and does not run any MS product.

[Speedy2]

While great news for fanboys to scream about. Something that must be pointed out is RIM's main focus is the bussiness market not the conusumer market. That market is much much smaller and Apple lets face it sucks in that market. Apple is aiming at the Consumer market.



Eh? What makes you think the business market for smartphones is smaller than the consumer market? Let alone "much much smaller" which is complete nonsense.

[tempusfugit]

I suspect that it will be neck and neck around the time of the new iPhone.


What does everyone think about Droid factoring into the situation?


I wouldn't be surprised if AAPL's growth in the smartphone market is slowed by this time next year. I think they will be growing but at a slightly lower rate. I think RIMM will decline ever so slightly, and the slack of both of these happening will have something to do with droid.

Interesting stuff no doubt. I'm considering going to droid myself, but I may wait to see what comes of the 4th generation iPhone and its exclusivity to ATT. The more I think about it, the more I think that the iPhone is a good deal in comparison to the capability/price of the competition. VZ has the network I want but none of the devices.... Droid MIGHT change all of that but I think that if I have to pay a dime more than I do for my iphone, that I won't be switching.


I think I read somewhere that something like 10% of fortune 500 companies have at least 5k iphones or something. Sorry thats such a bad piece of info given my inability to conjure it up with precision, but I don't really have any time to google it and check the actual numbers. The point is Apple will eventually be a real competitor in the business market, as they are becoming one already.

[Rodimus Prime]

Eh? What makes you think the business market for smartphones is smaller than the consumer market? Let alone "much much smaller" which is complete nonsense.

Simple logic.
The bussiness world includes only working people between the ages of 18-65 years of age.
This means they have to part of the workforce to be counted. On top of that only a finite number of them are ever going to be given companies phones.
Consumer market I will say anyone over the age of 13-death

Just used your brain for a second and think about it. When the Consumer market includes everyone living and the Bussiness work only includes people in the workforce and are given a cell phone. No matter how you cut it the Consumer market is much much larger than the bussiness market.


Before you try some counter like you posted please use your brain and see why one market is much larger than the other.

[outphase]

What does everyone think about Droid factoring into the situation?

I have no intention to move to Verizon (or any network for a specific phone), but I like the idea of competitors in the marketplace. When one is too dominant, it grows stale because it pushes out the competition.

[BongoBanger]

What does everyone think about Droid factoring into the situation?

I think it's interesting and it's one of the reasons that I'd like to see how much of the missing 23% of the consumer market that Android has and what the growth rate's been like. Droid is a product strategy across a wide spectrum of handsets so it'll be fascinating as to what happens in 2010.

I wouldn't be surprised if AAPL's growth in the smartphone market is slowed by this time next year. I think they will be growing but at a slightly lower rate.

Neither will I - not because Apple will have done anything wrong (unless they release the same phone again) but because the market will be bigger in size.

[McBeats]

ROFL.

You got anything to back that drivel up? I'm seeing plenty of people using their iPhones for work and at the corporate level.

Man the MSfanbois are just camping this site today!

i got some proof. go to your local college, notice that 1/3 of all those kids have iphones, i dont think 1/3 of them are using them for business reasons. (lol maybe selling drugs, but thats besides the point) Apple really IS turning more people onto the smartphones in a consumer market... Our time and technology is just getting to that point where the avg person can afford a smartphone, and smartphones are just gaining more popularity.

This is not to say that iphones arent great for business purposes; they are amazing for business. They are right up there with the blackberries.

[Rodimus Prime]

Neither will I - not because Apple will have done anything wrong (unless they release the same phone again) but because the market will be bigger in size.

I agree with that. The Smart phone market is more than likely getting close to be saturated like the cell service market has so no more new smart phone users to grab up. Only way to get more market share is take it from some one else.

Right now for example the carriers can only grow larger by taking people from the other carriers since almost everyone has a cellphone now days.

[mrgreen4242]

Intersting interpretation. To me it looks like Apple hasn't hurt RIM all that much (% market share belonging to RIM hasn't changed all that much), but has caused Palm no end of grief and it doesn't provide any info on Symbian, Android or Winmo.

Not enough info here to be useful.

The key RIM advantage of course is that many workplaces will not allow or provide an iphone for their network, but will allow/provide a RIM device.

That chart shows almost ZERO direct impact from Apple on Palm. Their rate of decline is steady from before the iPhone launched to present. RIM is also pretty static, indicating that there's little impact there either. At any given point there is 25-35% of the market "missing" on that chart. Given the fact that most/all of those missing handsets are either WinMo or Symbian, it would appear that the iPhone is taking users from WinMo and/or Symbian more than anything.

To get back to your main point, the impact of Apple on Palm sales, the only affect appears to be indirect - people switching from Palm are doing it at the same rate, but rather than buying a WinMo phone they are getting an iPhone (as an example). Looking at the future purchasing plans, it looks like webOS (and likely the Pixi in particular) are going to give Palm a nice little bounce. If they release a "Pre2" next summer and get the Pixi onto Verizon and a US GSM carrier (TMobile preferably) they could do pretty well over the next - basically getting an 'iPhone-like' device into the hands of people who don't want to spend $100 per month on a cell plan.

That's the most important market for the next 2-4 years, imo. There are more "dumb phone" users to steal sales from than other smartphone makers customers to poach.

[LagunaSol]

Man the MSfanbois are just camping this site today!

All Rodimus Prime can do when he hears positive Apple news is stick his fingers in his ears and scream about fanboys (failing to admit he's one himself, just one on the other side of the fence).

Jesus, who are you the Joseph McCarthy of fanboyism or something? Nothing in his post seemed overtly anti-Apple at all.

Methinks you're not familiar with Rodimus Prime's comment history.

Don't worry, when Apple surpasses RIM (which they will) he'll just gripe about iPhone users being mindless sheep.

The Smart phone market is more than likely getting close to be saturated like the cell service market has so no more new smart phone users to grab up.

LOL! Close to saturated??? You wish. The number of smart phone users is still tiny compared to the overall wireless market. There is a huge amount of growth ahead for smart phones. iPods used to be a niche product too, now everyone has them. The same thing will happen to smart phones.

[NewSc2]

Um, none of the numbers in the first graph end up adding to the same figure (not to mention they don't add up to 100% when the title is % of customers who own a RIM vs. Apple vs. Palm). I'd like to know where Android and Symbian fit into this too.

[BongoBanger]

There is a huge amount of growth ahead for smart phones. iPods used to be a niche product too, now everyone has them. The same thing will happen to smart phones.

True but it's going to be price driven ad more likely to be a transition from dumbphones to the mid tier. Apple may enter that market, they may not.

[kdarling]

As far as overall marketshare, apple is taking share from BB, Palm, and WM. However, the real picture is that the smartphone market is growing rapidly, and apple is garnering a larger percentage of the overall growth. Not so much that the other's user base is shrinking, it is jut not growing as quickly as iPhone's.

This.

For example, RIM continues to grow at its usual rate, or better. They're not selling less.

But the overall market total is growing, and many people who would otherwise not have a smartphone, are getting iPhones. They're almost a group unto themselves.

It's like when the Internet was opened up to AOL folk. It didn't make the number of regular users any less, it's just that there was suddenly a big AOL percentage, as part of a new and larger overall total.

[jf8]

So, what you're saying is, you don't believe businesses are giving their employees the option of an issued iPhone? :rolleyes: We won't go into how idiotic that is, but I can tell you it's untrue.
There are a few reasons why the iPhone might not be a good choice for large organizations who provide mobile data services to employees, such as email, calendaring, and intranet applications. These organizations typically standardize on a given type of device throughout the organization, manage all devices centrally, and enforce security policies. BB (and to a lesser extent, WM) devices are better with security and management and available on more carriers, whereas the iPhone is only available on one or zero carriers in many countries. The iPhone software is easier to use than BB or WM, but it is lacking in email and calendaring functionality. The iPhone will certainly get better in the future, but it is still behind.

And although I do not have an iPhone now, I will have the option of choosing one when service becomes available here. I will be reimbursed partially for it's purchase. 75% of the price will be covered.
The situation is different in companies whose IT departments purchase and support mobile devices for the purpose of connecting them to the corporate network. For companies who provide mobile phone service primarily for employee voice communication or as a fringe benefit, the functionality of the phone doesn't matter so much.

[Frisco]

OMG! Apple has positioned itself to eat everyone's lunch and I refused to buy Apple stock. I don't see an emoticon for smack so I will smack myself :apple:

[Eriamjh1138@DAN]

http://images.macrumors.com/article/2009/10/27/170007-rim_apple_palm_share.gif

That is one impressive graph, Apple.

[spillproof]

I never liked Motorola phones, but I am really anxious about how the Droid will affect the charts posted here. And the 4th generation iPhone. The iPhone have the same fate of the Razr - everyone has them, then a few years later, no one.

[QCassidy352]

What does everyone think about Droid factoring into the situation?

I think Droid will have roughly the same impact as the Pre, possibly less because it's not the first phone running Android like Pre was the first WebOS phone.

IMO RIM's decline is very likely. They will continue to have a strong corporate presence because they have good security and IT departments are familiar with them, but ultimately, I have to believe they will lose their consumer marketshare because blackberries are just so blatantly inferior to other makers' offerings.

RIM's whole philosophy was corporate email, and they did that very well. But everything else is basically tacked on, and it feels that way. While RIM has tweaked at the edges, they put out fundamentally the same product they did 10 years ago and really haven't bothered to innovate in terms of capabilities, design, or OS in the face of rapidly increasing competition.

Call me crazy, but time will tell.

[mwhartman]

I agree the iPhone is an awesome device. I enjoy it and find it very useful. However, AT&T's terrible coverage detracts all value of the device. For me, not being able to make or receive calls on ones cell phone eliminates any functionality that the iPhone offers. Last night, I canceled my contract. I will return to Verizon and purchase a Blackberry.

[MacFly123]

What the heck happened to Palm?

No real surprises here, everyone I know who is getting a smartphone is getting an iPhone, but it is a little weird palm doesn't have a bit more.

I think them only being on Sprint is their biggest problem! They need multiple carriers here and internationally STAT!

GO APPLE! :D

[Diode]

I was wondering that too.

Who's marketshare is Apple mostly eating in to?

Impressive performance from Apple nonetheless.

The increase in demand for smart phones ... ie people who never owned one before.

[MacFly123]

I can only speak from my circle of friends and colleagues but most corporate users are given BB phones by default. If they have an iPhone (and several of them do) it's their secondary phone outside of work.

Oh gee, I don't know... common sense? You obviously don't work at a corporation. Most people with company issued cell phones are all on BBs. If there is a small company that issues them, we usually have someone like you who runs to the forums to make a story out of it.

Facts:

-iPhone is being deployed in over 50% of the fortune 100.
-Small businesses are the backbone of America and the iPhone has made huge inroads in small businesses. I can't even count how many people I personally know that use iPhones for their small business.
-Over 350 higher education institutions have approved iPhones for faculty, staff, and students. Many are implementing curriculum through the iPhone and even issue them to students.
-iPhone just won J.D. Power and Associates award for highest satisfaction in business smart phones.
-iPhone has killed BlackBerry and all other phones in various satisfaction surveys, including business use.

The truth is RIM is desperate to get into the consumer market and has been trying with the Pearl and now Storm and Storm 2, but is failing badly!

Either way you look at it, saying iPhone isn't coming into the corporate world strong is nothing short of delusional! :rolleyes:

[*LTD*]

The question is not "if" the iPhone will overtake RIM, but "when."

The iPhone is already penetrating the enterprise, never mind rolling up the consumer market. RIM offers an email/texting machine, the iPhone offers 100x more + Apple's interface. Looks like a no-brainer, really.

[QCassidy352]

The truth is RIM is desperate to get into the consumer market and has been trying with the Pearl and now Storm and Storm 2, but is failing badly!

If by "failing" you mean "producing devices that are markedly inferior to other smartphones for consumer use," then I agree with you. However, that's just an opinion.

The fact is, RIM is selling more smartphones than ever before (even if they're losing market share - because the market is growing) and more of their sales are to consumers (both as a % of their own total sales and in absolute numbers) than ever before.

[mwhartman]

Facts:

-iPhone is being deployed in over 50% of the fortune 100.
-Small businesses are the backbone of America and the iPhone has made huge inroads in small businesses. I can't even count how many people I personally know that use iPhones for their small business.
-Over 350 higher education institutions have approved iPhones for faculty, staff, and students. Many are implementing curriculum through the iPhone and even issue them to students.
-iPhone just won J.D. Power and Associates award for highest satisfaction in business smart phones.
-iPhone has killed BlackBerry and all other phones in various satisfaction surveys, including business use.

The truth is RIM is desperate to get into the consumer market and has been trying with the Pearl and now Storm and Storm 2, but is failing badly!

Either way you look at it, saying iPhone isn't coming into the corporate world strong is nothing short of delusional! :rolleyes:

Agree the iPhone has been accepted by many businesses. As an IT director I can tell you it is a dream to set up and manage. The biggest flaw-- AT&T's lousy coverage. The poor coverage will limit how effective it is in the business world.

[LukeHarrison]

I see a lot of kids now carrying BlackBerry phones, and I'm starting to see a lot of Facebook status updates followed with 'posted with Facebook for BlackBerry', so RIM must be doing something right.

Still, I'm rocking my iPhone 2G, and still loving it :cool:

[str1f3]

This.

For example, RIM continues to grow at its usual rate, or better. They're not selling less.

But the overall market total is growing, and many people who would otherwise not have a smartphone, are getting iPhones. They're almost a group unto themselves.

It's like when the Internet was opened up to AOL folk. It didn't make the number of regular users any less, it's just that there was suddenly a big AOL percentage, as part of a new and larger overall total.

The future problem for BB is twofold:

1. Big Business is not even remotely growing at the same rate as the consumer market which means that BB will continue growing at a slower rate than other smartphones who appeal to the general consumer. At the point within the next 5-10 years when the market starts to mature, what happens when all the consumers start pushing to have their own personal phones in the workplace as some are already doing with the iPhone?

2. The iPhone, with all it's success, is still only on one carrier. Even RIM has conceded in one of their quarterly earnings report that their revenues would dip if this happened. We haven't even seen yet what Palm and Android can do because they are still yet. Android just introduced Exchange support in 2.0 as well.

It's clear that BB has trouble for them in the future. They may be trying to build a better browser with Webkit but I don't think that will be enough. For as advanced as some features of the BB may be, it's OS and design are archaic. They will still continue to get the older business crowd who is set in their ways, but is that enough?

[ilogic]

Intersting interpretation. To me it looks like Apple hasn't hurt RIM all that much (% market share belonging to RIM hasn't changed all that much), but has caused Palm no end of grief and it doesn't provide any info on Symbian, Android or Winmo.

Not enough info here to be useful.

The key RIM advantage of course is that many workplaces will not allow or provide an iphone for their network, but will allow/provide a RIM device.

Watch the iPhone will become a company 'perk'

[CFreymarc]

What the heck happened to Palm?

There is a lot of finger pointing but a lot point at the ex-CEO who pushed the Cobalt OS development, trashed it burning man-decades of project development for nothing and then resigned.

This put them a generation behind, no major product releases for two to three years and a mad rush to make a new kernel to get something out. WebOS is their home grown baby and we all shall see how the post-Hawkins Palm survives.

I think Jeff should give up on his brain-chip Numenta and come back to Palm to run it right. We shall see if that happens.

[CFreymarc]

http://images.macrumors.com/article/2009/10/27/170007-rim_apple_palm_share.gif

That is one impressive graph, Apple.

Yes it is. While RIM had a good poker face, the launch of the iPhone shook that place down to the foundation. Anyone that says less doesn't know the full story.

They scrambled to get out a work alike out (the Storm) but ended up just overloading their shipping architecture with UI features that didn't balance well and a click screen that not many cared for when it came out.

IMO, Jobs sees RIM like the monolithic IBM he fought in his youth. This is going to be a good one!

[jlindstrom]

impressive as that chart may be, it's still only US market share. Macrumours should dig up the global market share as well. Then there will be other players in the chart as well, with the likes of Nokia, Sony-Ericsson etc.

Would be interesting to see Apples performance against them as well. No doubt Apple is catching up and is also doing well globally. Somebody just needs to dig up the charts!

[Eric5h5]

IMO, Jobs sees RIM like the monolithic IBM he fought in his youth.

Those who don't know history are doomed to make it up, apparently.... There was no "monolithic IBM" for Jobs or anyone else to fight, not in the personal computer market anyway. In the late '70s, the TRS-80 from Radio Shack was the most dominant computer. In 1983-1984, the Commodore 64 was the most dominant computer. By the time PC clones became dominant (a year or two later), IBM itself only had a portion of the clone market. Also, here's a direct Steve Jobs quote: "RIM is a good company that makes good products."

--Eric

[iPhone 62S]

It's not "smart phone", it's "smartphone".

Anyway, this all looks good. RIM are having to try selling their phones to teenagers now, and looking at how their marketshare is starting to drop, I now see why. Soon RIMs product range will just be full of cash cows because their brand is just getting beat by Apple!

[OllyW]

Also, here's a direct Steve Jobs quote: "RIM is a good company that makes good products."

Going by the opinions of a number of MacRumors members that would mean Steve Jobs is a MSfanboi. :rolleyes:

[iPhone 62S]

Yes it is. While RIM had a good poker face, the launch of the iPhone shook that place down to the foundation. Anyone that says less doesn't know the full story.

They scrambled to get out a work alike out (the Storm) but ended up just overloading their shipping architecture with UI features that didn't balance well and a click screen that not many cared for when it came out.

IMO, Jobs sees RIM like the monolithic IBM he fought in his youth. This is going to be a good one!

I've used the Storm, and let me tell you, it's horrible. Even navigating a webpage is frustrating, and for some reason some text feilds and buttons didn't want to work in the browser. The UI, click screen, keyboard (largely because of that screen) are simply CRAP.

My friend had one and it ran out of battery when he needed to send a e-mail, so I let him do it on my iPhone, and he found it to be a pleasent change! He got rid of that Storm a month or two later, but because of the contract his company has, he still has a BlackBerry.

[sjo]

impressive as that chart may be, it's still only US market share. Macrumours should dig up the global market share as well.

the truth is more sad. it's not even us market share. it's market share among the respondents of the study, and those respondents are not selected using any statistically valid method. the study is completely worthless. why macrumors publishes this crap is mystery, publishing this crap under headline "iphone marketshare" is beyond misleading.

[JoJoCal19]

Facts:

-iPhone is being deployed in over 50% of the fortune 100.
-Small businesses are the backbone of America and the iPhone has made huge inroads in small businesses. I can't even count how many people I personally know that use iPhones for their small business.
-Over 350 higher education institutions have approved iPhones for faculty, staff, and students. Many are implementing curriculum through the iPhone and even issue them to students.
-iPhone just won J.D. Power and Associates award for highest satisfaction in business smart phones.
-iPhone has killed BlackBerry and all other phones in various satisfaction surveys, including business use.

The truth is RIM is desperate to get into the consumer market and has been trying with the Pearl and now Storm and Storm 2, but is failing badly!

Either way you look at it, saying iPhone isn't coming into the corporate world strong is nothing short of delusional! :rolleyes:

Post your sources. I call BS on your point #1.

I work for one of the largest banks & wealth management companies in the US and just as my company, other huge corporations will not allow iPhones for business because they cannot control what the users do on the phones with policies. On the BB they lock it down as far as messaging and apps. They cant lock down the iPhone. Their corporate users are able to use it for pleasure and put whatever apps on it they want. Therein lies the problem. Apple will never open the iPhone to being controlled by anyone but themselves. They wont give corporations the power to block the app store, or restrict other features of the iPhone. Thats why I dont see Apple taking over RIM in the corporate world.

I do agree with you that small businesses are more inclined to allow thier employees to use iPhones, but even then I dont believe the small business users using iPhones will outnumber the number of employees at huge corporations. I know several people that are given the choice at their (small) company to use whatever phone they want as long as they can get email, and thus have the option to use the iPhone.

[kdarling]

If you believe the chart, then RIM's performance is remarkable, because they've kept the same marketshare percentage even as the number of smartphone users has skyrocketed with the influx of iPhones.

In other words, RIM had to sell a lot of phones to pretty much keep up their percentage of the total.

So, while Apple came in late and thus must have an upward line, RIM's numerical sales have increased correspondingly.

Three Blackberry models are consistently in the top five selling USA smartphones, with the Curve usually at number one, and iPhone at number two. Even the Storm is usually in the top seven, and that's the old model.

Predictions however, are that RIM's share will continue to slowly drop, Apple's to slowly rise, while Android eclipses both by 2012. We'll see.

[JoJoCal19]

There is a lot of finger pointing but a lot point at the ex-CEO who pushed the Cobalt OS development, trashed it burning man-decades of project development for nothing and then resigned.

This put them a generation behind, no major product releases for two to three years and a mad rush to make a new kernel to get something out. WebOS is their home grown baby and we all shall see how the post-Hawkins Palm survives.

I think Jeff should give up on his brain-chip Numenta and come back to Palm to run it right. We shall see if that happens.

And they hurt themselves by releasing the same form factor phones and only having the old Palm OS and WinMo as the OS choices, like you said being behind.

See Palms market share in 2006? That is when they had the Treo 700wx with WinMo and I think it was the 650 with Palm OS, both in the same front qwerty form factor, which at its time was probably the best form factor, especially for business, and also the OS' were good back then. What happened? They didnt innovate or change. They kept the same form factor (just removed antenna stub) and kept the old aging Palm OS and WinMo. Obviously things were changing in 2007 and beyond with all of the new smartphones and at the time in 2007 the current Palm offerings were just extremely outdated. By the time they got the Pre and Web OS out the door, its pretty much too late. The Pre also isnt selling as hot as they would like because of their hardware. From what Ive seen with the Pre sales numbers its probably only a matter of time before Palm is extinct, which makes me sad. I still have my Palm Treo 700wx and I remember the good ol Palm days.

[macshill]

Post your sources. I call BS on your point #1.

I work for one of the largest banks & wealth management companies in the US and just as my company, other huge corporations will not allow iPhones for business because they cannot control what the users do on the phones with policies. On the BB they lock it down as far as messaging and apps. They cant lock down the iPhone. Their corporate users are able to use it for pleasure and put whatever apps on it they want. Therein lies the problem. Apple will never open the iPhone to being controlled by anyone but themselves. They wont give corporations the power to block the app store, or restrict other features of the iPhone. Thats why I dont see Apple taking over RIM in the corporate world.

I do agree with you that small businesses are more inclined to allow thier employees to use iPhones, but even then I dont believe the small business users using iPhones will outnumber the number of employees at huge corporations. I know several people that are given the choice at their (small) company to use whatever phone they want as long as they can get email, and thus have the option to use the iPhone.

http://i38.tinypic.com/25gbbxx.jpg

My brother is high up on the corporate ladder at TD Bank and they sure use BlackBerry. He even showed me his corporate-issued BB; forget the exact model.

[stagi]

Wow I can't believe they are gaining that fast on RIM, go AAPL

[SactoGuy18]

I work for one of the largest banks & wealth management companies in the US and just as my company, other huge corporations will not allow iPhones for business because they cannot control what the users do on the phones with policies. On the BB they lock it down as far as messaging and apps.

If Google allows an IT department to "lock down" an Android 2.0 phone so you couldn't add or remove apps, it could make it VERY desirable for large business organizations. That right there could effectively shut out the iPhone from use by corporations.

[smiddlehurst]

I never liked Motorola phones, but I am really anxious about how the Droid will affect the charts posted here. And the 4th generation iPhone. The iPhone have the same fate of the Razr - everyone has them, then a few years later, no one.

Nope, sorry, the iPhone has one major difference to the RAZR in this case - its ecosystem. The RAZR was a normal mobile phone in a stunning party frock. When people got bored they could move on to the next device and get exactly the same functionality with no penalty. With the iPhone moving on involves saying goodbye to all your applications, docks etc, it's far more integrated with daily life than the RAZR ever was. Heck just being able to manage everything from iTunes is a major plus point for the iPhone when it comes to thinking about switching platforms. Plus Apple are notoriously good at revising hardware at the right time and in the right way to mantain consumer interest, just look at the iPod line for proof of that.

Where Android is going to come in (to answer an earlier post) is the Symbian and Windows Mobile shares. Both of those platforms are vulnerable right now with pretty much no unique selling points and both lagging a LONG way behind other operating systems in terms of meeting consumer expectations. Palm too needs to be careful, right now there's nothing beyond the excellent Web OS to keep people on that platform. There's no real killer app for it, the choice of applications is a LONG way down on everything else and there's issues with linking to iTunes that are going to be a major problem for joe public. If they don't capitalise on that platform soon they might get caught right in the middle of Android and Apple.

RIM will be fine but are probably going to become increasingly locked into the business market. They've got that one sewn up at the moment and I don't see major coroprations rushing to get rid of their nice managed Blackberries and their investment in infrastructure to switch to an iPhone or Android device without there being a DAMN good reason to do so. Some will, sure, but for the vast majority RIM's product line does the job perfectly and I'm almost positive that's the market that will drive RIM going forward.

[unamused]

The storm was/is a horrible phone... look how quickly they brought out storm 2!! its suppose to be worlds better then the first one and im inclined to believe so since anything is better then crap.

Rim obviously got their boots shaken by the iphone which is why they pushed so hard for the "worlds first touchscreen blackberry" but sadly the iphone is just too dominant for the consumer based smartphone market.

My own experience is this... I had the storm for about 9 months, but after having enough of that crap, i went for the tour. The thought of getting the iphone never crossed my mind.... first of all, i loved being able stay on aim, gchat, and using BBM, not to mention email on the BB is simply brilliant. I do a decent amount of online selling via ebay, craigslist, etc and i love how instant the email is instead of waiting for it to poll or subscribing to some 3rd party push email provider. the second reason being pretty obvious that the iphone isnt on VZW. Another reason i love the bb is the form factor... some say its outdated and ill agree, a touch screen phone may look slick and all but after typing on a bb, a touchscreen (at least at this point in technology) is nowhere near as accurate or reliable as a real keypad.

With all that said, i love the fact that the iPhone is doing so well. It has really been pushing RIM to make the bb more appealing and consumer friendly. Granted the app world is HORRIBLE compared to the app store, but they are definitely working on getting there. If the iphone eventually came out with the ability to run background apps and get real push email from the getgo, then i would be way more likely to consider, but as for now, i enjoy the competition both apple and Android will be bringing to the smartphone industry as competition is almost always a good thing.

[Rodimus Prime]

It's not "smart phone", it's "smartphone".

Anyway, this all looks good. RIM are having to try selling their phones to teenagers now, and looking at how their marketshare is starting to drop, I now see why. Soon RIMs product range will just be full of cash cows because their brand is just getting beat by Apple!

Umm the quote below does make an interesting point. RIM market share has stated about the same give or take a little even with the huge growth in the market. With the exploding growth in the smart phone market going on and RIM still holding around 40% of the US market that says something.

Also RIM is going going to sacrifice it makes advantage it has over all other smart phones just to compete with the iPhone. RIM will not turn its back on its corporate clinics and giving up the control IT departments can put on the BB.

On think RIM has is they are the only phone that has true push email and they own the patents for it.

If you believe the chart, then RIM's performance is remarkable, because they've kept the same marketshare percentage even as the number of smartphone users has skyrocketed with the influx of iPhones.

In other words, RIM had to sell a lot of phones to pretty much keep up their percentage of the total.

So, while Apple came in late and thus must have an upward line, RIM's numerical sales have increased correspondingly.

Three Blackberry models are consistently in the top five selling USA smartphones, with the Curve usually at number one, and iPhone at number two. Even the Storm is usually in the top seven, and that's the old model.

Predictions however, are that RIM's share will continue to slowly drop, Apple's to slowly rise, while Android eclipses both by 2012. We'll see.

That is a good point. RIM has not lost any real market-share with the exploding grown of smart phones. the iPhone could easily be getting close to reaching it saturation market-share point like BB has at that point the growth of the number of people using the iPhone will be limited to the size of the market.

[MacFly123]

Post your sources. I call BS on your point #1.

I work for one of the largest banks & wealth management companies in the US and just as my company, other huge corporations will not allow iPhones for business because they cannot control what the users do on the phones with policies. On the BB they lock it down as far as messaging and apps. They cant lock down the iPhone. Their corporate users are able to use it for pleasure and put whatever apps on it they want. Therein lies the problem. Apple will never open the iPhone to being controlled by anyone but themselves. They wont give corporations the power to block the app store, or restrict other features of the iPhone. Thats why I dont see Apple taking over RIM in the corporate world.

I do agree with you that small businesses are more inclined to allow thier employees to use iPhones, but even then I dont believe the small business users using iPhones will outnumber the number of employees at huge corporations. I know several people that are given the choice at their (small) company to use whatever phone they want as long as they can get email, and thus have the option to use the iPhone.

http://i38.tinypic.com/25gbbxx.jpg

My brother is high up on the corporate ladder at TD Bank and they sure use BlackBerry. He even showed me his corporate-issued BB; forget the exact model.

Haha, you guys really don't pay much attention to the news do you? This was just stated officially by Apple! :rolleyes:

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/10/19/notes_of_interest_from_apples_q4_2009_quarterly_conference_call.html

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/10/19/apple_says_iphone_competitors_still_fail_to_compete.html

Also, you might want to take a closer look at the iPhone's configuration utility for enterprise, its ad hock abilities, and restrictions settings!

http://www.apple.com/iphone/how-to/index.html#settings.restrictions

http://www.apple.com/iphone/how-to/index.html#settings.restrictions

Anything else you wanna call BS on lol? :rolleyes:

[BongoBanger]

Anything else you wanna call BS on lol? :rolleyes:

Yes. Your failure to understand the difference between 'deploy' and 'choose as the preferred communications platform'. Piloting means testing it for suitability to access a corporate network. It'll then go on the approved vendors list which is still light years away from becoming the platform of choice.

Don't believe everything you read especially if Apple Insider is your source.

[BongoBanger]

If you believe the chart, then RIM's performance is remarkable, because they've kept the same marketshare percentage even as the number of smartphone users has skyrocketed with the influx of iPhones.

Even more so when you consider that these are RIM's consumer sales not their corporate sales.

[Rodimus Prime]

Yes. Your failure to understand the difference between 'deploy' and 'choose as the preferred communications platform'. Piloting means testing it for suitability to access a corporate network. It'll then go on the approved vendors list which is still light years away from becoming the platform of choice.

Don't believe everything you read especially if Apple Insider is your source.

Very true.

Anything apple related from an Apple Fansite should never be used a proof. A non fanboy site is strongly recommended.
As for anything coming out of Apple mouth related to it. Well you sure as hell better not trust it. Apple has been caught multiple times in the past be far less than truth.

[seedster2]

Facts:

-iPhone is being deployed in over 50% of the fortune 100.
-Small businesses are the backbone of America and the iPhone has made huge inroads in small businesses. I can't even count how many people I personally know that use iPhones for their small business.
-Over 350 higher education institutions have approved iPhones for faculty, staff, and students. Many are implementing curriculum through the iPhone and even issue them to students.

The truth is RIM is desperate to get into the consumer market and has been trying with the Pearl and now Storm and Storm 2, but is failing badly!

Either way you look at it, saying iPhone isn't coming into the corporate world strong is nothing short of delusional! :rolleyes:

Do you have any proof of actual iPhone adoption in the corporate environment? Last I heard it was in testing but no announcement of the widespread adoption you claim here.

Do you have any proof that BB is failing in the consumer market? All i saw was your opinion.

I do think Apple is making inroads with the academic sector. But I cant state it is fact as confidently as you assert.

The fact is, RIM is selling more smartphones than ever before (even if they're losing market share - because the market is growing) and more of their sales are to consumers (both as a % of their own total sales and in absolute numbers) than ever before.

This was my impression as well. While they don't score as well on consumer feedback surveys, they are still moving boatloads.

Post your sources. I call BS on your point #1.

I work for one of the largest banks & wealth management companies in the US and just as my company, other huge corporations will not allow iPhones for business because they cannot control what the users do on the phones with policies. On the BB they lock it down as far as messaging and apps. They cant lock down the iPhone. Their corporate users are able to use it for pleasure and put whatever apps on it they want. Therein lies the problem. Apple will never open the iPhone to being controlled by anyone but themselves. They wont give corporations the power to block the app store, or restrict other features of the iPhone. Thats why I dont see Apple taking over RIM in the corporate world.

I do agree with you that small businesses are more inclined to allow thier employees to use iPhones, but even then I dont believe the small business users using iPhones will outnumber the number of employees at huge corporations. I know several people that are given the choice at their (small) company to use whatever phone they want as long as they can get email, and thus have the option to use the iPhone.

Agreed. I have travelled to numerous Fortune 100 client offices and I do not see this rapid expansion discussed here. I think MacFly is gravely mistaken. I can, however, see their adoption in smaller businesses where activesync may be easier to adopt than BES. But even at my smaller organization, we support iPhone but our company will only buy BB.

My brother is high up on the corporate ladder at TD Bank and they sure use BlackBerry. He even showed me his corporate-issued BB; forget the exact model.

Im in NYC and i see the same anecdotal evidence here in finance, pharmaceutical, retail and insurance clients I interact with.

Haha, you guys really don't pay much attention to the news do you? This was just stated officially by Apple! :rolleyes:

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/10/19/notes_of_interest_from_apples_q4_2009_quarterly_conference_call.html

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/10/19/apple_says_iphone_competitors_still_fail_to_compete.html

Anything else you wanna call BS on lol? :rolleyes:

How does "Over 50 percent of the Fortune 100 are deploying a pilot program of the iPhone." = iphone is being deployed to half of the Fortune 100? I dont think you made the proper extrapolation from that statistic.

Yes. Your failure to understand the difference between 'deploy' and 'choose as the preferred communications platform'. Piloting means testing it for suitability to access a corporate network. It'll then go on the approved vendors list which is still light years away from becoming the platform of choice.

Exactly. He made quite the leap based on that tidbit of information.


I think the iphone is a capable device and I enjoyed mine when it wasn't behaving or showed comparatively poor reception. That said, I think both RIM and Apple are doing extremely well at their target markets. The graph, if the results are indeed indicative of a larger market trend, are very positive for apple.

[MacFly123]

Yes. Your failure to understand the difference between 'deploy' and 'choose as the preferred communications platform'. Piloting means testing it for suitability to access a corporate network. It'll then go on the approved vendors list which is still light years away from becoming the platform of choice.

Don't believe everything you read especially if Apple Insider is your source.

I sited Apple Insider just for convenience. You can easily go to Apple's press releases or listen to the actual conference call if you like.

Do you have any proof of actual iPhone adoption in the corporate environment? Last I heard it was in testing but no announcement of the widespread adoption you claim here.

Do you have any proof that BB is failing in the consumer market? All i saw was your opinion.

I do think Apple is making inroads with the academic sector. But I cant state it is fact as confidently as you assert.

This was my impression as well. While they don't score as well on consumer feedback surveys, they are still moving boatloads.

Agreed. I have travelled to numerous Fortune 100 client offices and I do not see this rapid expansion discussed here. I think MacFly is gravely mistaken. I can, however, see their adoption in smaller businesses where activesync may be easier to adopt than BES. But even at my smaller organization, we support iPhone but our company will only buy BB.

Im in NYC and i see the same anecdotal evidence here in finance, pharmaceutical, retail and insurance clients I interact with.

How does "Over 50 percent of the Fortune 100 are deploying a pilot program of the iPhone." = iphone is being deployed to half of the Fortune 100? I dont think you made the proper extrapolation from that statistic.

Exactly. He made quite the leap based on that tidbit of information.

I think the iphone is a capable device and I enjoyed mine when it wasn't behaving or showed comparatively poor reception. That said, I think both RIM and Apple are doing extremely well at their target markets. The graph, if the results are indeed indicative of a larger market trend, are very positive for apple.

I never said to what extent it has penetrated or is being deployed. However, what I said remains true. Those are the numbers that are available. Point is Apple is making big progress in the enterprise and business. I guarantee you Apple will continue to dominate the consumer market while also chipping away at RIM's audience in business! BB OS is crap and outdated. They can't continue to compete with Apple unless they do some major work on the software front!

[LagunaSol]

The iPhone have the same fate of the Razr - everyone has them, then a few years later, no one.

Totally. Just like the iPod. Oh, wait...

Going by the opinions of a number of MacRumors members that would mean Steve Jobs is a MSfanboi. :rolleyes:

No, to make Jobs a MSfanboi of the MacRumors order you'd have to throw in a little bit more: "Blind Apple fanboys...blah blah...overpriced shiny crap...blah blah...I could build my own phone for half the price...blah...Windows viruses are a myth...blah blah...stupid sheep...blah."

[BongoBanger]

Totally. Just like the iPod. Oh, wait...


The iPhone isn't the same as the iPod for a number of reason that should be immediately obvious.

[DMann]

The iPhone isn't the same as the iPod for a number of reason that should be immediately obvious.
Yet, the analogies to "just like the Sony Walk-Man" kept on rollin' in...

[Goona]

What does everyone think about Droid factoring into the situation?


I wouldn't be surprised if AAPL's growth in the smartphone market is slowed by this time next year. I think they will be growing but at a slightly lower rate. I think RIMM will decline ever so slightly, and the slack of both of these happening will have something to do with droid.

Interesting stuff no doubt. I'm considering going to droid myself, but I may wait to see what comes of the 4th generation iPhone and its exclusivity to ATT. The more I think about it, the more I think that the iPhone is a good deal in comparison to the capability/price of the competition. VZ has the network I want but none of the devices.... Droid MIGHT change all of that but I think that if I have to pay a dime more than I do for my iphone, that I won't be switching.


I think I read somewhere that something like 10% of fortune 500 companies have at least 5k iphones or something. Sorry thats such a bad piece of info given my inability to conjure it up with precision, but I don't really have any time to google it and check the actual numbers. The point is Apple will eventually be a real competitor in the business market, as they are becoming one already.Droid will do as much damage as the Palm Pre, HTC Hero, Blackberry Storm, the G1, Samsung Instinct, LG Voyageur etc did..

[Goona]

If you believe the chart, then RIM's performance is remarkable, because they've kept the same marketshare percentage even as the number of smartphone users has skyrocketed with the influx of iPhones.

In other words, RIM had to sell a lot of phones to pretty much keep up their percentage of the total.

So, while Apple came in late and thus must have an upward line, RIM's numerical sales have increased correspondingly.

Three Blackberry models are consistently in the top five selling USA smartphones, with the Curve usually at number one, and iPhone at number two. Even the Storm is usually in the top seven, and that's the old model.

Predictions however, are that RIM's share will continue to slowly drop, Apple's to slowly rise, while Android eclipses both by 2012. We'll see.

No the iphone is usually at number one with the curve at 2. The curve took top spot once.

[Goona]

Yes. Your failure to understand the difference between 'deploy' and 'choose as the preferred communications platform'. Piloting means testing it for suitability to access a corporate network. It'll then go on the approved vendors list which is still light years away from becoming the platform of choice.

Don't believe everything you read especially if Apple Insider is your source.
They got direct quotes from Apple, so if they are lying, then Apple is lying!

[Goona]

Very true.

Anything apple related from an Apple Fansite should never be used a proof. A non fanboy site is strongly recommended.
As for anything coming out of Apple mouth related to it. Well you sure as hell better not trust it. Apple has been caught multiple times in the past be far less than truth.

Yes well we should believe a nobody on the internet over a government regulated company like Apple!

[kdarling]

Droid will do as much damage as the Palm Pre, HTC Hero, Blackberry Storm, the G1, Samsung Instinct, LG Voyageur etc did..

Each one of those used up around a million potential customers within a very short time span.

It adds up.

Like the old Chinese "Death by a Thousand Cuts".

[Goona]

Each one of those used up around a million potential customers within a very short time span.

It adds up.

Like the old Chinese "Death by a Thousand Cuts".

Yet Apple sales and market share actually increased after they all came out, not decreased. I don't see any damage any of them did. Most of them have now faded into oblivion.

[DMann]

Yet Apple sales and market share actually increased after they all came out, not decreased. I don't see any damage any of them did. Most of them have now faded into oblivion.

The introduction of the Pre actually seems to have accelerated iPhone sales - there have been droves of returns, and subsequent upgrades to the iPhone.

Competition is good.

[OllyW]

Yet Apple sales and market share actually increased after they all came out, not decreased. I don't see any damage any of them did. Most of them have now faded into oblivion.

You've got to remember the overall size of the market is still growing. Even if your market share is more or less static like RIM, you are still selling more phones.

[LagunaSol]

The introduction of the Pre actually seems to have accelerated iPhone sales - there have been droves of returns, and subsequent upgrades to the iPhone.

Competition is good.

Anyone who helps push Microsoft into complete irrelevance in the mobile space is a friend of mine, be it Palm, Google (Android), RIM or Apple.

Or, of course, a concerted combination of players. ;)

Like the old Chinese "Death by a Thousand Cuts".

You're referring more to Windows Mobile, of course.

[kdarling]

Yet Apple sales and market share actually increased after they all came out, not decreased. I don't see any damage any of them did. Most of them have now faded into oblivion.

Didn't say their sales decreased. But the amount of increase was decreased because of those other devices.

Apple's sales could've been even larger if millions of contracted users hadn't been siphoned off to competing phones.

It's just like when we hear, "Apple doesn't need to sell on Verizon, look how many millions they sell just on ATT". Obviously they would sell even more, if they were in more markets. It's the same reason why Apple sells their phone in more and more countries.

[DMann]

Anyone who helps push Microsoft into complete irrelevance in the mobile space is a friend of mine, be it Palm, Google (Android), RIM or Apple.

Or, of course, a concerted combination of players. ;)



You're referring more to Windows Mobile, of course.

This be the outcome!

Apple, or Google, or RIM, or Palm......... blip

[LagunaSol]

This be the outcome!

Apple, or Google, or RIM, or Palm......... blip

Any way you slice it, Windows Mobile is in for a world of hurt. In the "hodgepodge hardware" category, Android is going to reign supreme. In the integrated hardware/software model, RIM and Apple will continue to duke it out, and I expect Apple to end up on top. Palm is in trouble and will continue to be. Windows Mobile, I think, is doomed to the dustpan. With no lock-in power to the Windows OS or Office, what will MS have to offer the hardware makers? Not much, not when Android is free.

The mobile space will be interesting indeed. You hear the arguments that Apple is doomed just like they were in the PC space with their integrated software/hardware model, but this is a whole different ball game. No one can just cobble together a cheap mobile device using off-the-shelf motherboards and hard drives. No manufacturer has a price advantage over Apple this time around, just like in the MP3 player space. Apple can make an iPhone just as cheaply as HTC or Motorola can make an Android device, or as cheaply as anyone can make a WinMo device. Cheaper actually, because they already own the OS. And Apple has iTunes to profit from. HTC/Motorola/etc. can only profit from the hardware itself. And will people even want an ad-driven phone, which Android must eventually become? Time will tell.

And you can bet MS will resort to a Zune phone (i.e. their own hardware and software) as WinMo as a hardware-agnostic OS falls off the chart entirely. It's all but guaranteed. It will be PlaysForSure all over again. Watch and see.

[DMann]

Any way you slice it, Windows Mobile is in for a world of hurt. In the "hodgepodge hardware" category, Android is going to reign supreme. In the integrated hardware/software model, RIM and Apple will continue to duke it out, and I expect Apple to end up on top. Palm is in trouble and will continue to be. Windows Mobile, I think, is doomed to the dustpan. With no lock-in power to the Windows OS or Office, what will MS have to offer the hardware makers? Not much, not when Android is free.

The mobile space will be interesting indeed. You hear the arguments that Apple is doomed just like they were in the PC space with their integrated software/hardware model, but this is a whole different ball game. No one can just cobble together a cheap mobile device using off-the-shelf motherboards and hard drives. No manufacturer has a price advantage over Apple this time around, just like in the MP3 player space. Apple can make an iPhone just as cheaply as HTC or Motorola can make an Android device, or as cheaply as anyone can make a WinMo device. Cheaper actually, because they already own the OS. And Apple has iTunes to profit from. HTC/Motorola/etc. can only profit from the hardware itself. And will people even want an ad-driven phone, which Android must eventually become? Time will tell.

And you can bet MS will resort to a Zune phone (i.e. their own hardware and software) as WinMo as a hardware-agnostic OS falls off the chart entirely. It's all but guaranteed. It will be PlaysForSure all over again. Watch and see.

You are quite right - without vendor lock-in, MS would have had no claim to fame in the '90s to begin with. They have fallen far off the table with WinMo, and have been

all but displaced by RIM, and the ensuing Droid - we may even be hearing of another chair throwing incident in the near future. A Zune phone is imminent, (for MS, circa 2016)

who's killer feature will be an app which converts Microsoft Points back to any currency of your choice. Golden!

[Unprocessed1]

I think it was well known for a while that RIM was going to start losing their market share. To say the Blackberry OS is severely outdated is an understatement. It's stale and boring.

[LagunaSol]

all but displaced by RIM, and the ensuing Droid - we may even be hearing of another chair throwing incident in the near future. A Zune phone is imminent, (for MS, circa 2016)

who's killer feature will be an app which converts Microsoft Points back to any currency of your choice. Golden!

I suppose Microsoft can resort to their current strategy: pay people to like them. Like Bing (cashback), Xbox (heavy hardware subsidy and eternal warranty), Zune (funding phony fan sites), Windows Parties (torture your friends and family for a free copy of Windows - we'll even provide the napkins!) and Laptop Hunters (good old-fashioned handfuls of cash in the parking lot and the chance to be on TV). Hey, maybe they'll pay mobile makers to use WinMo instead of that free Google stuff.

"Psst, HTC. How about putting WinMo 7 on your next device? Price? Hmm, how does $50 a unit sound? No, as in we'll pay you $50 a unit. Yes, we thought you might like that." *sinister cackle*

Embrace (hardware makers with cash money), Extend (WinMo beyond its current status as a complete has-been), Extinguish (Google's Android).

Gizmodo also hears the death knell for WinMo (and Palm) too:

http://gizmodo.com/5392799/how-google-and-apple-will-kill-palm-dead

[DMann]

I suppose Microsoft can resort to their current strategy: pay people to like them. Like Bing (cashback), Xbox (heavy hardware subsidy and eternal warranty), Zune (funding phony fan sites), Windows Parties (torture your friends and family for a free copy of Windows - we'll even provide the napkins!) and Laptop Hunters (good old-fashioned handfuls of cash in the parking lot and the chance to be on TV). Hey, maybe they'll pay mobile makers to use WinMo instead of that free Google stuff.

Like Bing (cashback) - please, PLEASE, don't use Google!!!

Xbox (unprecedented hardware subsidy and eternal warranty) - We'll pay for your faulty unit, you fund shipping, handling and manage eternal frustration.

Zune (funding phony fan sites) - sooooooooo squirting-ly pathetic.

Windows Parties (torture your friends and family for a free copy of Windows - we'll even provide the napkins!):D:D:D

Laptop Hunters (good old-fashioned handfuls of cash in the parking lot and the chance to be on TV)

"I'm a PC whore, and I'm worth it!"

[DMann]

"Psst, HTC. How about putting WinMo 7 on your next device? Price? Hmm, how does $50 a unit sound? No, as in we'll pay you $50 a unit. Yes, we thought you might like that." *sinister cackle*

Embrace (hardware makers with cash money), Extend (WinMo beyond its current status as a complete has-been), Extinguish (Google's Android).

Gizmodo also hears the death knell for WinMo (and Palm) too:

http://gizmodo.com/5392799/how-google-and-apple-will-kill-palm-dead

That's strange, I heard Ballmer mention that WinMo was running on over 200,000,000 phones.

He's quite confident that this number is on the upswing, as it can limp along on a number of configs.

He's got quite a lot of checks to sign, if he actually believes this fantasy, especially with DROID on the horizon.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_79FsAV-Z2NE/RsUIjB6G48I/AAAAAAAAAIw/KS2KMXDzh6M/s400/chair.jpg

[Rodimus Prime]

That's strange, I heard Ballmer mention that WinMo was running on over 200,000,000 phones.

He's quite confident that this number is on the upswing, as it can limp along on a number of configs.

He's got quite a lot of checks to sign, if he actually believes this fantasy, especially with DROID on the horizon.




Chances are it is on the upswing and could easily be correct. But you missed a huge little fact. The size of the smart phone market is growing at a very rapid pace.

Just Windo Mobile just is not selling enough phones to even keep up with the size of the growth of the market.


As for Palm Pre being a fail. It has been doing really done pretty well conidering it is on a very limited network. Remeber Sprint is a hell of a lot smaller than AT&T and Verizon. Plus Pre only was selling in the US.

[DMann]

Chances are it is on the upswing and could easily be correct. But you missed a huge little fact. The size of the smart phone market is growing at a very rapid pace.

Quite true.

Just Windo Mobile just is not selling enough phones to even keep up with the size of the growth of the market.

This would be Ballmer Speak in its purest form - time will tell, and so far, the 'telling' is not favorable for WinMo.

We'll see how many more 'partners' opt to join his parade.

As for Palm Pre being a fail. It has been doing really done pretty well conidering it is on a very limited network. Remeber Sprint is a hell of a lot smaller than AT&T and Verizon. Plus Pre only was selling in the US.

Not nearly as well as Palm had anticipated. With DROID on the horizon, we shall see.

[LagunaSol]

"I'm a PC whore, and I'm worth it!"

I think a line from the "I'm A Mac" ads is an equally good caption for your photo: "When you're ready to compromise, you call me..." (waves pile of cash)

Chances are it is on the upswing and could easily be correct.

If your wishes were fishes...

[Rodimus Prime]

Not nearly as well as Palm had anticipated. With DROID on the horizon, we shall see.

True but my understanding Palm was hoping for something like the iPhone success and lefts face it they lack the Apple name and they were on Sprint. Now I think Sprint is a great cell phone company but it still a very limited network so those 2 factors alone are going to reduce sells greatly.

I am wondering how the Pre will do now that it is starting to go World wide and how it will do once it hits Verizon.

I expect Android to take off soon.

For RIM I really wanting to know how things are going to now that OS 5.0 is starting to offically roll out.

[DMann]

I think a line from the "I'm A Mac" ads is an equally good caption for your photo: "When you're ready to compromise, you call me..." (waves pile of cash)

Hahaha - same difference!!!:D

True but my understanding Palm was hoping for something like the iPhone success and lefts face it they lack the Apple name and they were on Sprint. Now I think Sprint is a great cell phone company but it still a very limited network so those 2 factors alone are going to reduce sells greatly.

They also lack in build quality, and are plagued by chintzy construction.

I am wondering how the Pre will do now that it is starting to go World wide and how it will do once it hits Verizon.

At their current price point, not so hot.

I expect Android to take off soon.

Agreed.

For RIM I really wanting to know how things are going to now that OS 5.0 is starting to offically roll out.

Curious to see 5.0 myself - good to see that they're willing to move things forward.

[twoodcc]

well hopefully the next iphone will push apple to be about even with rim

[jefecamindor]

All Rodimus Prime can do when he hears positive Apple news is stick his fingers in his ears and scream about fanboys (failing to admit he's one himself, just one on the other side of the fence).



Methinks you're not familiar with Rodimus Prime's comment history.

Don't worry, when Apple surpasses RIM (which they will) he'll just gripe about iPhone users being mindless sheep.



LOL! Close to saturated??? You wish. The number of smart phone users is still tiny compared to the overall wireless market. There is a huge amount of growth ahead for smart phones. iPods used to be a niche product too, now everyone has them. The same thing will happen to smart phones.

Look at a chart of Ipod growth. It started growing rapidly in 2005 and its growth ended in 2007. About 3 years of high growth. Iphone has just entered its 3rd year of high growth. Good chance its near saturation too.

[BongoBanger]

Yet, the analogies to "just like the Sony Walk-Man" kept on rollin' in...

Que?

Anyway, IDC and Canalsys' figures are out. Interesting reading and some food for though for those who think Nokia and RIM are dead.

WinMo remains distinctly in "oh dear" land though.

[jimmyjoemccrow]

Non-fanbois: "Macs only have 5% marketshare worldwide and a limited choice of hardware and software compared to Windows"

Apple Fanbois: "Its not about marketshare, its all about the quality of the overall experience.


Non-fanbois: " Apple have limited appeal to business users and the majority of apps are fart apps."

Apple Fanbois: "Apple have a growing marketshare! And its all about how many apps are available."

I wish the fanbois would make up their minds.

[SactoGuy18]

In the end, Apple need to do two things for the iPhone to be widely accepted as a serious cellphone for business use:

1) Can be "locked down" by IT managers so apps cannot be added or removed from the iPhone--all app changes are done by the IT department.

2) Offer a good physical keyboard in slide-out or clamshell fashion. I would like to see Apple emulate something like what LG did with their Neon messaging phone:

http://hotcellularphone.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/Fido-releases-LG-Neon-in-Blue.jpg

Note the very nice spacing between keys on this phone, which makes it usable even with larger hands.

[LagunaSol]

In the end, Apple need to do two things for the iPhone to be widely accepted as a serious cellphone for business use:

1) Can be "locked down" by IT managers so apps cannot be added or removed from the iPhone--all app changes are done by the IT department.

I thought this was already possible? :confused:

2) Offer a good physical keyboard in slide-out or clamshell fashion. I would like to see Apple emulate something like what LG did with their Neon messaging phone:

I don't understand the argument that a physical keyboard is a critical need for business use. Sure, I understand the initial angst when the iPhone was first announced, but over time the virtual keyboard has proven just as effective as a hardware keyboard and far more versatile.

And judging by the messages I get from my manager's Blackberry, physical keyboards do nothing to improve accuracy. :(

[Adam0306]

So, what you're saying is, you don't believe businesses are giving their employees the option of an issued iPhone? :rolleyes: We won't go into how idiotic that is, but I can tell you it's untrue.


For our organization there is no choice. It is mandatory BB if you even get a phone.