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MacRumors
Nov 2, 2009, 04:02 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/iphone/2009/11/02/adobe-points-finger-at-apple-on-get-flash-page-for-iphone/)


http://images.macrumors.com/article/2009/11/02/165819-adobe_flash.png

GearDiary reports (http://www.geardiary.com/2009/11/02/adobe-to-iphone-users-want-flash-dont-blame-us/) on a recent change to Adobe's "Get Flash" download page for Flash Player that appears when visited by iPhone users. iPhone users are linked to the page when attempting to load Flash video and have traditionally been greeted with a simple message informing them that Flash was not available for their platform.

The updated text clearly passes the blame for lack of Flash support on the iPhone to Apple, pointing to Apple's restrictions on the use of such technologies.Apple restricts use of technologies required by products like Flash Player. Until Apple eliminates these restrictions, Adobe cannot provide Flash Player for the iPhone or iPod Touch.Adobe recently launched (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/10/05/adobe-flash-player-initiative-for-smartphones-launched-but-iphone-not-included/) a Flash Player initiative to facilitate the integration of Flash across platforms, including smartphones. Apple, however, was been notably absent from the list of companies participating in the initiative.

Article Link: Adobe Points Finger at Apple on 'Get Flash' Page for iPhone (http://www.macrumors.com/iphone/2009/11/02/adobe-points-finger-at-apple-on-get-flash-page-for-iphone/)



thegoldenmackid
Nov 2, 2009, 04:03 PM
Whine whine whine. That clearly makes Apple fix the problem.

Capt Underpants
Nov 2, 2009, 04:04 PM
Adobe is throwin' bows

Eddyisgreat
Nov 2, 2009, 04:09 PM
Adobe is throwin' bows

Agreed.

Owch! Damn. Just burned myself on that flame bait ADBE is casting out. :D

duke49er
Nov 2, 2009, 04:09 PM
Like Apple gives a rat's ass.

Took them like over 2 years to get something as basic as MMS on "the world's most advanced phone", why would they care about flash?

wackymacky
Nov 2, 2009, 04:13 PM
Putting aside the fact that Flash is crap, fair enough for Adobe for being so frank.

Shookster
Nov 2, 2009, 04:22 PM
Apple restricts use of technologies required by products like Flash Player. Until Apple eliminates these restrictions, Adobe cannot provide Flash Player for the iPhone or iPod Touch.

People don't care about Flash Player itself, they just want the ability to play video in the browser, which the iPhone is perfectly capable of doing. So instead of lobbying Apple for Flash support we should be lobbying web developers for video tag support.

tundrabuggy
Nov 2, 2009, 04:28 PM
Putting aside the fact that Flash is crap, fair enough for Adobe for being so frank.

You are in such a HUGE minority of Flash bashers....learn to love it!.....cuz just like taxes, you're gettin' it on your iPhone pal.

MacFly123
Nov 2, 2009, 04:29 PM
FLASH

Apple does not care to support flash on their devices because it is horribly inefficient and has been holding back progression of the internet for over a decade. Instead of using much more efficient open standards that the world wide web is founded upon, companies like Adobe and Microsoft are more interested in locking you into their inferior technologies in order to maintain revenue! Until Flash dies Apple will continue to support the progression of the internet using approved standards!

FLASH SUCKS! GO SUCK ONE ADOBE! :p

richardhunt
Nov 2, 2009, 04:32 PM
I disagree that people don't care about flash players. Plenty of sites out there use flash extensively and do not offer a non-flash version. Adding adobe flash capability to the iphone would make it that much better in my opinion. Just because apple doesn't want it, doesn't mean it's not useful. I for one believe that apple "sometimes" listens to it's users, and if enough people complain, apple will react. Think apps for the iphone (remember apple's stand, it's an ipod, not a computer), cut/paste and push service. Background apps seem to be the next barrier to be broken, why not flash?

As far as adobe and MS "holding back" web progression, the whole point of flash is that it is a tool that makes highly interactive media sites easier to accomplish.

DrewG5
Nov 2, 2009, 04:32 PM
Yeah cuz I just want to see all the advertisements on every page on my iPhone... Flash is a joke at best, every laptop mac or not that I have had it on the simplest flash would get the fans running for lift off...

KT Walrus
Nov 2, 2009, 04:37 PM
Apple should bundle the ClickToFlash plug-in into Mobile Safari. It prevents flash from running unless you really want it to run. This should address, in part, Apple's stated reason for not allowing flash (battery drain and stability) as the user would only enable it for those parts of the web that they really want to see.

And, while they are at it, they should enable file uploads in Mobile Safari to upload photos and videos.

I hate only being able to use part of the internet on my iPhone when there is no technical reason I shouldn't be able to do both Flash on demand and file uploads.

doctoree
Nov 2, 2009, 04:37 PM
People don't care about Flash Player itself, they just want the ability to play video in the browser, which the iPhone is perfectly capable of doing. So instead of lobbying Apple for Flash support we should be lobbying web developers for video tag support.

Exactly! And not only video video tag support but the whole HTML5. Much faster and cleaner and ready to replace this flash crap. Good thing Apple is so large that they can actually transform whole markets.

supernaut
Nov 2, 2009, 04:39 PM
Who cares about Flash? Most of the time it's used, it's because the web designers are too dumb or lazy to get the page right without it, because they haven't kept out with what a modern browser is capable of.

Hemingray
Nov 2, 2009, 04:48 PM
Like Apple gives a rat's ass.

Took them like over 2 years to get something as basic as MMS on "the world's most advanced phone", why would they care about flash?

Do you think that was Apple's decision to hold off on MMS, or AT&T pressuring them to hold off because they were afraid it would bring their network even more to its knees? From what I've read, it sounded like MMS was already in the iPhoneOS, just disabled. I don't know for sure though, anyone else wanna chime in on this?

lowbatteries
Nov 2, 2009, 04:48 PM
I disagree that people don't care about flash players. Plenty of sites out there use flash extensively and do not offer a non-flash version. Adding adobe flash capability to the iphone would make it that much better in my opinion. Just because apple doesn't want it, doesn't mean it's not useful. I for one believe that apple "sometimes" listens to it's users, and if enough people complain, apple will react. Think apps for the iphone (remember apple's stand, it's an ipod, not a computer), cut/paste and push service. Background apps seem to be the next barrier to be broken, why not flash?

As far as adobe and MS "holding back" web progression, the whole point of flash is that it is a tool that makes highly interactive media sites easier to accomplish.

Users don't care about flash, they care about websites. Some site developers seem to care more about Flash than about their users. Therefore, we get crappy Flash "websites" that don't work for the users. Who is at fault here? The developer. It's the developer's job to use technologies that will be future-proof and well, not suck.

MacUnixGuy
Nov 2, 2009, 04:53 PM
Putting aside the fact that Flash is crap ...

Yes, flash has issues, but there are several sites that I want to use from the iPhone that require it. It would be good for the iPhone to support it.

Also, there are several enterprise development shops rolling out custom enterprise applications for mobile phones. They don't want to write custom applications for the iPhone, so using Flash/Flex would definitely be attractive.


... fair enough for Adobe for being so frank.

Agreed. The best way for this to proceed forward is for the discussion to be more open. If the current lack of iPhone Flash support is not a technical limitation, but instead an Apple policy problem, then it is best for the community to know that and put pressure on Apple to move forward.

Don't underestimate the power that the community can have for seeing results from this.

sommls
Nov 2, 2009, 04:53 PM
This is almost Microsoft-like: at what point does the public simply become so sick of badly written software from an arrogant company that historically captured a large market share and is now doing everything possible to stifle innovation that it simply moves on?

locust76
Nov 2, 2009, 04:54 PM
Do you think that was Apple's decision to hold off on MMS, or AT&T pressuring them to hold off because they were afraid it would bring their network even more to its knees? From what I've read, it sounded like MMS was already in the iPhoneOS, just disabled. I don't know for sure though, anyone else wanna chime in on this?

Well, MMS wasn't available anywhere else in any other market worldwide on the iPhone until 3.0 came out, so no, I don't think it had anything to do with AT&T. That was just a case of Apple trying to tell everyone what makes an advanced mobile device.

Detlev
Nov 2, 2009, 04:56 PM
Hmm, support of the standards on one hand (see Adobe apps in the Itunes store) and criticism on the other.

The only thing they failed to do is provide a call to action. There is neither a link to Adobe or Apple. They are expecting that people actually care enough about the product that they will search out a way to provide feedback on the topic to the appropriate powers that be.

If they are serious about making it a cause then they need to do something radical. Pull all of their products from the store, even if it is only temporary. Otherwise, it's just talk.

SpinThis!
Nov 2, 2009, 05:03 PM
I bet Adobe got sick of all the support e-mails asking them "why doesn't flash download on the iPhone?!" Previously, on Adobe's website you could get all the way up downloading the file and mobile Safari would obviously say the file isn't supported. Adobe should have done this from the beginning.

Darkroom
Nov 2, 2009, 05:06 PM
This is almost Microsoft-like: at what point does the public simply become so sick of badly written software from an arrogant company that historically captured a large market share and is now doing everything possible to stifle innovation that it simply moves on?

WHAT are you talking about?! Adobe clearly isn't the one "stifling" innovation here.

*EDIT* wait, i think that's what you were saying. sorry. :o

ThunderSkunk
Nov 2, 2009, 05:10 PM
Apple needs to pull its head out on this one.

Flash eats battery! Ok, and? So does fieldrunners. Guess what? I can decide if I want to spend the power playing it!

Flash is full of archaic crap. Well dang. The web is full of archaic crap. Including a lot of flash. But it's still the web, and I still need to access it.

Flash isn't necessary, you can use Java, Wookie, etc... whatever. Ok, sure, I'll just write every website I need to visit to find my travel reservations and itinerary, and have them rewrite their page in a new format.

This stupid tug of war leaves the end users in the lurch. Adobe, clean up flash, Apple, encourage them and accept that it ain't gonna be perfect.

SpinThis!
Nov 2, 2009, 05:17 PM
People don't care about Flash Player itself, they just want the ability to play video in the browser, which the iPhone is perfectly capable of doing. So instead of lobbying Apple for Flash support we should be lobbying web developers for video tag support.

Developers aren't the problem. A lot of it is Internet Explorer and Microsoft not supporting standards. For one, IE doesn't do much html5. Microsoft will probably never support the svg-based "flash killer" canvas tag. Also, due to bickering on all browser makers, HTML5 doesn't specify a mandatory video format so you have Apple doing mpeg-4, Firefox and friends doing ogg, and IE supporting nothing. And let's not forget users who still run IE6.

Out of the box, most Windows machines don't know how to play MP4 files (unless a user has QuickTime) but most do play flash content. Mac OS X won't play ogg out of the box. So you're left with Flash. As a web developer, Flash is the easiest way to get multimedia, especially video, on your website and looking the same in all browsers. Unless you run a predominately Mac OS X website, HTML5 just isn't ready for prime time yet.

sbrhwkp3
Nov 2, 2009, 05:19 PM
I actually really hate flash.

But I'd like it on my iPhone since seemingly every important web site utilizes it these days.

Furrybeagle
Nov 2, 2009, 05:20 PM
I have to go mucking around with plugins to get Flash out of my face on OS X, compared to the iPhone, which does it for me. :rolleyes:

All jokes aside, I personally donít like Flash, but Iím not quite sure I see the evil of just having the option for it on the iPhone.

deannnnn
Nov 2, 2009, 05:24 PM
hah. Good for you, Adobe!

Tastic Bycrom
Nov 2, 2009, 05:28 PM
Exactly! And not only video video tag support but the whole HTML5. Much faster and cleaner and ready to replace this flash crap. Good thing Apple is so large that they can actually transform whole markets.

I'd argue that it's not "ready." HTML5 is a working draft, and video tag codec support is still one of those items that is not entirely settled. I'm all for getting every browser to implement it and maybe even start using it after a specific browser/codec check, but fallback is still going to be flash for the time being.

Ironduke
Nov 2, 2009, 05:30 PM
I like Adobe.
I Like Apple.

But whos the better?

Theres only one way to find out!


FIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SimonTheSoundMa
Nov 2, 2009, 05:33 PM
Apple needs to allow for alternative browsers also.

Fennec and Opera Mobile are miles ahead.

Mr. Giver '94
Nov 2, 2009, 05:39 PM
As if Apple will ever listen to anyone other than Steve Jobs... :rolleyes:

Flash would be great though...

delawn
Nov 2, 2009, 05:40 PM
Who cares about Flash? Most of the time it's used, it's because the web designers are too dumb or lazy to get the page right without it, because they haven't kept out with what a modern browser is capable of.

Wow, the level of ignorance concerning Flash from all of the 'Experts' out there. Take a few minutes and Google for "Adobe Flex" and "Adobe Air" which are based on Flash. Yes the advertising is annoying. But so are those done by animated GIFs

And for those that think HTML 5 will solve world hunger ask yourself when the last time any browser vendor implemented an HTML spec completely, correctly and the same as every other vendor. Do you really think everybody is going to all the vendors will get together and sing Kumbaya? Do you really think you will be able to code just one version of your really cool web app...? Time for a reality check.

We use Flex and have yet had to recode anything becuase of a browser version change. Our web application works the same in IE 6 and Firefox 2.0 as it does in IE 8 and Firefox 3.5. Runs the same on Linux, Mac, Windows.

Enjoy your HTML, I will enjoy being lazy and support all browsers from a single code base. I will beg to differ with you though on who is dumber here. :)

tremlock
Nov 2, 2009, 05:43 PM
how is this new news? This message has been popping up for months

Burnsey
Nov 2, 2009, 05:53 PM
I hate flash. It's slow and resource intensive in OSX, don't know who to blame for that though, Apple or Adobe.

mikes63737
Nov 2, 2009, 05:56 PM
I'm pretty sure that Flash wouldn't even work on an iPhone. It uses 100% CPU on my MBP and video still lags!

This is probably the reason that Apple doesn't even want to let Adobe make Flash, because they know they would fsck it up somehow.

And, since iPhones overheat, CPU usage at 100% for any length of time could cause the battery to explode!

JonB3Z
Nov 2, 2009, 06:27 PM
What Adobe is saying is the simple truth: They can't provide Flash due to Apple's app restrictions. If that's "pointing the finger," it's pointing it accurately.

Whether it is good or bad that Apple has those restrictions is a separate debate, but Adobe is just explaining to users who might want Flash on the iPhone why it isn't available, something that MR readers probably already know but that a lot of iPhone users may not.

tonyshucraft
Nov 2, 2009, 06:39 PM
Heh, what Adobe should do, for video purposes, is try and make something that converts the flash file the user views into a video file when viewed by the user on the iphone. I don't know much about flash but I think it could work. As I think there is always a video file somewhere near that flash file.

But then I don't know. This is based off of what little I know.

citi
Nov 2, 2009, 06:49 PM
I'm pretty sure that Flash wouldn't even work on an iPhone. It uses 100% CPU on my MBP and video still lags!

This is probably the reason that Apple doesn't even want to let Adobe make Flash, because they know they would fsck it up somehow.

And, since iPhones overheat, CPU usage at 100% for any length of time could cause the battery to explode!

Don't just blame Adobe...blame apple too. It's a code/OS issue. It's works perfectly on PCs.

citi
Nov 2, 2009, 06:51 PM
Heh, what Adobe should do, for video purposes, is try and make something that converts the flash file the user views into a video file when viewed by the user on the iphone. I don't know much about flash but I think it could work. As I think there is always a video file somewhere near that flash file.

But then I don't know. This is based off of what little I know.

Flash video uses a .flv file, which is a shell that houses the avi/mpg/mov/etc. But it's rendered away when it's converted to flv, so technically it no longer exists. You can't really extract it...well you can but that would take more processing power than just playing the flash file.

Zwopple
Nov 2, 2009, 06:51 PM
haha I love all the people in this thread ripping on "FLASH SUCKING" yet have no clue in the difference in development costs of making most Flash Sites with html4 or html5 and ajax.

Half of the stuff Flash does is still impossible in HTML5. It may be slow in some area's but that isn't because Adobe is lazy it's simply due to the way the technology has to work to support all of it's features.

IMO Apple should take heat from this. They have no reason -not- to allow the plugin and have it turned off by default so users don't get battery drain while browsing the web.

scottness
Nov 2, 2009, 07:00 PM
Based on the way flash uses up resources on my MBA, I really don't want it on my iPhone.

If I really need it, I can wait till I get home and open it up on my desktop.

eugarps
Nov 2, 2009, 07:10 PM
Oh, come on! Who here loves to so the [? Blue Lego] show up? :confused:

henhowc
Nov 2, 2009, 07:10 PM
Flash already runs like ass in Mac OS and Adobe doesn't seem to care about that. I couldn't imagine it running well on the iPhone.

Treq
Nov 2, 2009, 07:25 PM
Don't just blame Adobe...blame apple too. It's a code/OS issue. It's works perfectly on PCs.

1) nothing works perfectly on PCs :D
2) the mac version and the pc version are diffrent. (mac version sucks and should be fixed and streamlined)

rollercoasternd
Nov 2, 2009, 07:33 PM
I don't really care how inefficient Flash is or whether other web standards can already do things that Flash does, but I want to play Farmville on my iPhone and until there is Flash on the iPhone theres not FarmVille on the go :( I don't see why the end user should be punished b/c of this. Flash should be allowed and for everyone who doesn't like Flash just don't use it. I just don't see why some people not liking it should effect the other 30 million iPhone users. Maybe the web developer should have used something else to build their site, thats not my fault, but that doesn't make their sites content any less useful. We should still be able to use it.

Shin3r
Nov 2, 2009, 07:36 PM
I'm on the fence about the whole iPhone Flash debacle. I believe Apple is not adding flash to try and get standards changed. They have a habit of doing this type of thing. In fact, I think they tried it with MMS by replacing it with email. However, consumers thought different, and now we have MMS.

I agree Flash is terribly inefficient, but has been around a long time. That being said, there are those times when being able to use a flash website would be convenient. It's not really hurting me though, so time will tell what they do.

Treq
Nov 2, 2009, 07:47 PM
Ever since the iPhone came out Apple has been trying to get Adobe to write a more streamlined mobile flash player. one that:

1) won't crash and possibly make the phone reboot
2) won't drain the battery too much
3) won't tax the processor so much that it creates a heat problem
4) is secure enough to keep malicious code from running on your phone.

For whatever reason Adobe has been unable or unwilling to do this. So, Yes Apple has created restrictions, but very necessary ones. Anything less would be bad for the end user and for Apple's reputation.

Darkroom
Nov 2, 2009, 07:51 PM
Users don't care about flash, they care about websites. Some site developers seem to care more about Flash than about their users. Therefore, we get crappy Flash "websites" that don't work for the users. Who is at fault here? The developer.

your argument is subjective. while i agree with you that some flash sites can be a bit heavy, there are a lot that work very well. some even have quicker load time that static HTML/Javascript/CSS/Images. here's a site i've developed earlier this year which i like to believe is fairly light weight (http://www.deskguise.com) (click the character's nose!), it allows for back/forward, deep linking and SEO functionality, while including animations that are currently not possible with HTML/CSS.

HTML/CSS will not compete with flash in the future. however, WebGL certainly will. WebGL is going to be great!

It's the developer's job to use technologies that will be future-proof and well, not suck.

technologies change all the time and the best developers learn how to adapt to the constant change using the best production tools they can. so while (as i mentioned) WebGL will give adobe a run for their money, it's unlikely that adobe will simply quit development for flash, which by the way has been around since the mid 90s. flash will only become more advanced.

jamesryanbell
Nov 2, 2009, 08:27 PM
It doesn't matter what anyone thinks of the technology personally. It's FACTUALLY an integrated part of the web these days. It needs support on iPhone. Period.

cottington
Nov 2, 2009, 08:32 PM
WHAT are you talking about?! Adobe clearly isn't the one "stifling" innovation here.

Pretty sure that's what sommls meant.

Treq
Nov 2, 2009, 08:33 PM
It doesn't matter what anyone thinks of the technology personally. It's FACTUALLY an integrated part of the web these days. It needs support on iPhone. Period.

Damn right it does! I wish Adobe would get off their butts and make one for the iPhone that Apple could approve. Until then, we're all out of luck.

Darkroom
Nov 2, 2009, 08:39 PM
Pretty sure that's what sommls meant.

you're right. i read the comment too quickly. :o

maclook
Nov 2, 2009, 08:46 PM
i like Apple because they stick to their guns. The guys that work there must be really smart so if they think that Flash is detrimental to the computer experience they want to offer, I trust them. They might be abusing their power, but, hey, it's all for bettering the future of computing.

TuckBodi
Nov 2, 2009, 09:09 PM
Apple pleaseee don't put Flash on my iPhone! I'm tired of its memory leaks on my Mac with all the banner ads! I need to try that Flash blocker and see if that helps!

hazza.jockel
Nov 2, 2009, 09:10 PM
Didn't read through the whole thread so i'm not sure if this had been mentioned but there was a story on the TWIT the other day about a CEO who bought an iphone and tried to view his company's website but he couldn't because it was flash based. He then made his IT department completely re-write the website so that he could view it on his iphone.

I assume as the iphone becomes a more business orientated mobile more website may move away from flash.

IMO though I rarely go to a site where i need flash so i don't really care if it come to the iphone or not.

funnyent
Nov 2, 2009, 09:32 PM
I think one of the main reasons Apple won't allow flash is because of Video. They don't want Hulu and other free movie sites competing with iTunes for the iPhone. At&t would also go crazy knowing that sites like UStream and Cnn live could stream live video over their network. Agree?

DaveGee
Nov 2, 2009, 10:00 PM
Who cares about Flash? Most of the time it's used, it's because the web designers are too dumb or lazy to get the page right without it, because they haven't kept out with what a modern browser is capable of.

Hey I hate Flash more than most but in this case Adobe has a clear case of doing the right thing...

Imagine just for a moment you were in charge of Flash at Adobe.... Okay, STOP! before you erase its entire existance off the Adobe corp. servers (and back ups) lol -- take a second and check your email and what's that you find? X hundred? x thousand?? people all crying to you why Flash doesn't work on the iPhone... If I were the man in charge I'd say enough of this crap ... we have an iPhone ready (aka SUPER CRAPTASTC!) version of Flash all packed up and ready to explode err... ready to go and Apple cuts us off?!?!? well &*#&$*( them! I'm not fielding any more nasty grams from people ask ME why its not on their stupid little crappy iPhone ... Lets tell em exactly WHY it's not and be done with the entire mess.

Now that was me being an Adobe guy... I actually have a great fondness for my iPhone and a mild hate over the controls Apple has imposed over App store approvals. I'm also a "hey what is this FLASH?! that you speak of?!?!" and why would I ever care to have it on my machine... I've got this flash blocker and cept for certian video sites I get by just fine without seeing crappy flash presentations that are pretending to be Web pages...

Sorry flashers. Flash is not the web no matter how much you beat the drum that it is. It's an abomination not unlike Microsofts Active X. So drop the flash-pipe, spark up a doob and read some Perl Camel books and once you've got a good head on then get some cookies and move over to some Ruby on Rails books or perhaps PHP. Get to know the 'real web'. :D

Rot'nApple
Nov 2, 2009, 10:03 PM
Yes, flash has issues, but there are several sites that I want to use from the iPhone that require it. It would be good for the iPhone to support it.

Can you name off some of those sites and give their web address. Anyone else have sites they can name? I would like to see how much the lack of Flash on the iPhone cripples a web site. - thanks.

Bubba Satori
Nov 2, 2009, 10:35 PM
Putting aside the fact that Flash is crap, fair enough for Adobe for being so frank.

It works great everywhere except some apple computers, iphones and iPods.
But you knew that.
Put down the Koolaid and step away from the keyboard.

Bubba Satori
Nov 2, 2009, 10:38 PM
Hey I hate Flash more than most

Why, because you hear cultists chanting it all day long ?

Darkroom
Nov 2, 2009, 10:46 PM
Sorry flashers. Flash is not the web no matter how much you beat the drum that it is. It's an abomination not unlike Microsofts Active X. So drop the flash-pipe, spark up a doob and read some Perl Camel books and once you've got a good head on then get some cookies and move over to some Ruby on Rails books or perhaps PHP. Get to know the 'real web'. :D

you forgot about Actionscript ;)

Treq
Nov 2, 2009, 10:53 PM
It works great everywhere except some apple computers, iphones and iPods.
But you knew that.
Put down the Koolaid and step away from the keyboard.

That's because Adobe hasn't written a good version for the Mac yet. The mac version is a bloated resource hog. Everyone knows that.

BeyondtheTech
Nov 2, 2009, 11:00 PM
I just installed ClickToFlash (http://rentzsch.github.com/clicktoflash/) on all my Macs and my browsing experience has dramatically increased 1000% for the better. No more intrusive pop-up ads, distracting animations, and more importantly, long-loading, resource-intensive, useless, gimmicky intros and gadgets... unless I specifically ask for it.

I can only imagine what would happen if Flash apps on the iPhone didn't have such an ability to be optionally downloaded, let alone execute upon it loading. It's bad enough that AT&T's bandwidth is horrendous at times, I don't need to waste half a megabyte just downloading an advertisement.

djgamble
Nov 2, 2009, 11:11 PM
Just support flash already...
I don't want it or need it, but Apple imposing this artificial restriction is so silly...

eyehop
Nov 2, 2009, 11:14 PM
I like Flash video, but find flash interfaces and text presentations dreadful. No matter how pretty they look, they feel forced and inaccessible. I just want to get back to web page ASAP. Is there a way Adobe could make a light Flash phone plugin just for video?

Treq
Nov 2, 2009, 11:24 PM
I just installed ClickToFlash (http://rentzsch.github.com/clicktoflash/) on all my Macs and my browsing experience has dramatically increased 1000% for the better. No more intrusive pop-up ads, distracting animations, and more importantly, long-loading, resource-intensive, useless, gimmicky intros and gadgets... unless I specifically ask for it.

I can only imagine what would happen if Flash apps on the iPhone didn't have such an ability to be optionally downloaded, let alone execute upon it loading. It's bad enough that AT&T's bandwidth is horrendous at times, I don't need to waste half a megabyte just downloading an advertisement.

+1
ClickToFlash is Awesome. My computer runs so much cooler now that I've installed it.

cocky jeremy
Nov 2, 2009, 11:24 PM
Who cares about Flash? It's a bloated, poorly written POS and i'd rather not have it. EVER. Hell, i turn it off on my Mac with ClickToFlash and just use H.264 unless Flash is the ONLY option. I wish Flash would just hurry up and die!

dan5.5
Nov 2, 2009, 11:46 PM
Apple, please give us flash. We are all begging u

ProstheticHead
Nov 2, 2009, 11:59 PM
Maybe I just haven't read the correct information... but how is YouTube supported as an app on the iPhone without Flash? Does it download the files and use Quicktime (or something of the such) to play the downloaded .flv? Couldn't Apple work to apply this same concept to Flash as a whole online?

Again, I have done zero research on this.

Peace
Nov 3, 2009, 12:11 AM
I just installed ClickToFlash (http://rentzsch.github.com/clicktoflash/) on all my Macs and my browsing experience has dramatically increased 1000% for the better. No more intrusive pop-up ads, distracting animations, and more importantly, long-loading, resource-intensive, useless, gimmicky intros and gadgets... unless I specifically ask for it.



That is a testament to exactly what's wrong with the internet.
Having to have an app to do that.

Shouldn't be there in the first place.

And Adobe perpetuates it.

kage207
Nov 3, 2009, 12:15 AM
In the 2 years I've had an iPhone, I haven't once visited a website that has needed Flash. Personally I really don't care if the iPhone gets it or not. It does the sites I need.

All this is, is Apple thinking it knows better than the consumer, a Steve Jobs mentality. I like his thinking but I'd like to see an actually push by Apple to make things better then.

nek
Nov 3, 2009, 12:20 AM
There have been times when I wanted Flash to work on my iPod, but I'm glad Apple is keeping it off there. They just need to keep pushing HTML5 and eventually Flash will die and the internet will miraculously become faster.

MorphingDragon
Nov 3, 2009, 12:27 AM
Okay then Adobe. Why dont you give us the Uber Light version used on Phones for desktop use? Oh wait. :rolleyes:

icloud
Nov 3, 2009, 01:14 AM
if Adobe can get it's s*** together and make Flash work on OS X, then I would be more opposed to Apple's reluctance to see it ported to iPhone.

vvebsta
Nov 3, 2009, 02:13 AM
Anyone here think the HTC Hero is pretty flippin sweet? does it run flash?

ps I'm an iPhone user

baryon
Nov 3, 2009, 03:38 AM
Why is it so hard to get Flash on the iPhone? How come other devices can have it, and the iPhone can't? I mean I know it wouldn't be full blown Flash with keyboard controls and mouse actions, but it would be nice to at least SEE it and be able to CLICK on a few buttons, that's all I need...

mooblie
Nov 3, 2009, 03:51 AM
Can you name off some of those sites and give their web address. Anyone else have sites they can name? I would like to see how much the lack of Flash on the iPhone cripples a web site. - thanks.

BBC News, New York Times, Le Monde, CNN, CBC, ABC News, Welt Online, El Pais, etc.... (and hundreds - thousands? - of others).

Oh yes, and practically all live-TV and TV-catchup websites...

arkitect
Nov 3, 2009, 03:53 AM
BBC News, New York Times, Le Monde, CNN, CBC, ABC News, Welt Online, El Pais, etc.... (and hundreds of others).

Not to mention trying to book a couple of tickets to the moviesÖ
:o

While I "get by" without Flash on my iPhone I would welcome it with open arms.

army91c
Nov 3, 2009, 03:55 AM
Ever since the iPhone came out Apple has been trying to get Adobe to write a more streamlined mobile flash player. one that:

1) won't crash and possibly make the phone reboot
2) won't drain the battery too much
3) won't tax the processor so much that it creates a heat problem
4) is secure enough to keep malicious code from running on your phone.

For whatever reason Adobe has been unable or unwilling to do this. So, Yes Apple has created restrictions, but very necessary ones. Anything less would be bad for the end user and for Apple's reputation.

I paid for my iPhone, not apple.... How about apple let me make the choice if I want flash to run on my phone or not.

-=XX=-Nephilim
Nov 3, 2009, 04:10 AM
Apple should take finger out of their back parts asap!

Very soon indeed it might turn out to be too late...

Connect IT
Nov 3, 2009, 05:25 AM
Apple needs to pull its head out on this one.

Flash eats battery! Ok, and? So does fieldrunners. Guess what? I can decide if I want to spend the power playing it!

Flash is full of archaic crap. Well dang. The web is full of archaic crap. Including a lot of flash. But it's still the web, and I still need to access it.

Flash isn't necessary, you can use Java, Wookie, etc... whatever. Ok, sure, I'll just write every website I need to visit to find my travel reservations and itinerary, and have them rewrite their page in a new format.

This stupid tug of war leaves the end users in the lurch. Adobe, clean up flash, Apple, encourage them and accept that it ain't gonna be perfect.

I couldn't agree more!:)

djdole
Nov 3, 2009, 05:39 AM
Whine whine whine. That clearly makes Apple fix the problem.

Why not?
It's obviously worked for :apple: with their PC vs Mac commercials in terms of their minuscule OS market-share. :rolleyes:

Treq
Nov 3, 2009, 05:47 AM
I paid for my iPhone, not apple.... How about apple let me make the choice if I want flash to run on my phone or not.

Fine. Jailbreak your phone. Of course, technically, that will void the warranty, but so would running diesel in your car if the manufacturer calls for unleaded. You might cause some damage but you can't blame Apple/the car company for that. So if/when the processor or battery heats up too much and bricks your iphone, don't go whining to apple. And when all your personal info gets hacked because of some malicious code that flash was able to run... And even when your web pages load at a snail's pace, don't blame apple. Blame Adobe Flash. Like you said, you bought your iPhone, run what you want. Just don't expect apple to fix it when it all goes wrong.

djellison
Nov 3, 2009, 06:00 AM
Putting aside the fact that Flash is crap....

On Macs. It's great on PCs. Isn't it ironic - Silverlight, MS's alternative to Flash, is better in Safari than Flash is.

oneschance
Nov 3, 2009, 06:48 AM
Wirelessly posted (iphone: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 3_1_2 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/528.18 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0 Mobile/7D11 Safari/528.16)

Like Apple gives a rat's ass.

Took them like over 2 years to get something as basic as MMS on "the world's most advanced phone", why would they care about flash?

ATT not Apple

oneschance
Nov 3, 2009, 06:51 AM
Wirelessly posted (iphone: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 3_1_2 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/528.18 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0 Mobile/7D11 Safari/528.16)

Apple restricts use of technologies required by products like Flash Player. Until Apple eliminates these restrictions, Adobe cannot provide Flash Player for the iPhone or iPod Touch.

People don't care about Flash Player itself, they just want the ability to play video in the browser, which the iPhone is perfectly capable of doing. So instead of lobbying Apple for Flash support we should be lobbying web developers for video tag support.

I support this idea. I believe this is the same way Apple looks at it.

Fotek2001
Nov 3, 2009, 07:30 AM
The amount of crap in this thread is amazing:

1) Flash could never be a normal 'App' because it has to operate as a plugin for Safari since it's not a stand alone product on its own. For this reason, it would at the very least HAVE to be co-developed by Apple and included in a software update.

2) The primary reason Apple don't want to allow Flash, Java or any other runtime environment on the iPhone is because it would mean that developers would be able to bypass the App Store and Apple's own development tools. This would weaken the entire platform because there would be less incentive to develop native iPhone applications. It would also have the consequence of handing control over part of the entire platform to a third party - imagine if Adobe decided to stop producing Flash for the iPhone. Where would that leave Apple?

3) The Mac and PC versions of Flash differ because the underlying operating systems are fundamentally different particularly in how they handle hardware graphics acceleration. Blame for the poor performance of Flash on Mac OS X has to lie primarily with Adobe because they produce the software and Mac OS X includes very solid, highly optimised 2D and 3D graphics APIs.

4) Flash video using the older Sorenson and On2 codecs will not play properly on any current mobile device because there is no hardware optimisation for those codecs. Only video based on H.264 has broad hardware acceleration support (including the iPhone) so even if Adobe and Apple did bring Flash to the iPhone, it still wouldn't solve all the video problems.

kdarling
Nov 3, 2009, 07:32 AM
Don't blame Adobe for speed

Adobe didn't write Flash. Macromedia did. Adobe bought Macromedia a few years ago (mostly because they thought Microsoft was going to) and has had to rework their products.

Adobe is redoing Flash for mobile

Which is a good thing. Adobe is working with ARM cpu and gpu makers to create this new Flash 10 for mobile devices.

The real Internet uses Flash

Don't get us started again on the webpages (NY Times, National Geographic) that Apple has retouched the Flash out of, before public demos, to hide the fact that Safari can't show them completely.

HTML5 won't stop popup ads

If the W3C hadn't screwed around for so many years, HTML5 could've been more adopted by now. Heck, is there even a video playback codec standard yet?

In any case, ad companies will always figure out something, whether it's Flash, DHTML, or whatever.

Don't like it? Most likely will have a switch

Who doesn't think that Flash would be an option that the user can turn off?

mysticbluebmw
Nov 3, 2009, 07:50 AM
FLASH

Apple does not care to support flash on their devices because it is horribly inefficient and has been holding back progression of the internet for over a decade. Instead of using much more efficient open standards that the world wide web is founded upon, companies like Adobe and Microsoft are more interested in locking you into their inferior technologies in order to maintain revenue! Until Flash dies Apple will continue to support the progression of the internet using approved standards!

FLASH SUCKS! GO SUCK ONE ADOBE! :p

Drinking from the Apple koolaid again, huh?

Perhaps if you pulled your head out of SJ's bum long enough to look around, you'd notice the vast majority of iPhone users are being punished in Apple's attempt to mold the internet in it's own image.

A large number of websites use flash in their design, and are completely inaccessible without flash support. Inefficient or not, that's fact, and we're the losers here.

Jarbo
Nov 3, 2009, 08:24 AM
Developers aren't the problem. A lot of it is Internet Explorer and Microsoft not supporting standards. For one, IE doesn't do much html5. Microsoft will probably never support the svg-based "flash killer" canvas tag. Also, due to bickering on all browser makers, HTML5 doesn't specify a mandatory video format so you have Apple doing mpeg-4, Firefox and friends doing ogg, and IE supporting nothing. And let's not forget users who still run IE6.

No, LETS PLEASE forget about users running IE6. For GOD's sake, It's an 8 year old browser!

rjtyork
Nov 3, 2009, 08:29 AM
I personally do not like adobe one bit. I try to keep anything with the Adobe name off my computer. It's buggy, it doesn't look good, and photoshop is expensive. I don't care how powerful it is, I still hate the program. I would much rather use something else. But then again I'm not a photo editor so I don't know when I would need to use anything else.

Anyways, I'm happy Apple is keeping flash off the mobile browser because I don't want to see pop up ads, I don't want to see video on any website except youtube, and I don't want to deal with the endless parade of bugs that are sure to come with adobe putting flash in an already near perfect mobile web browser.

Dave01568
Nov 3, 2009, 08:39 AM
Apple,you greedy apple give us flash even if you allow a way to click and hold that Lego piece to save a URL fir later viewing in a app specific flash player

ranmasaotomes
Nov 3, 2009, 08:47 AM
Well, MMS wasn't available anywhere else in any other market worldwide on the iPhone until 3.0 came out, so no, I don't think it had anything to do with AT&T. That was just a case of Apple trying to tell everyone what makes an advanced mobile device.

Many phones here in Australia already had the ability to tether and indeed use programs like Skype over 3g.

It wasn't until people in other parts of the world got annoyed that people got features that AT&T Crippled. So yes. Indeed, I do blamed AT&T for the lack of Voip on 3G, Slow implementation of MMS and the ability to not teether until recently.

calzon65
Nov 3, 2009, 09:52 AM
Apple is a self absorbed organization that loves to publically bash other companies like Microsoft for not being responsive, open, hip, etc., then when it comes to incorporating a technology that people want/need, they drag the butts, remain non responsive and basically do nothing. I applaud Adobe for throwing this right back in Apple's face.

dejo
Nov 3, 2009, 10:03 AM
Isn't it ironic - Silverlight, MS's alternative to Flash, is better in Safari than Flash is.
How is that ironic (Miss Morissette)? :confused:

HyperZboy
Nov 3, 2009, 10:17 AM
Until Adobe can get FLASH working properly on Macs, why the hell would I want it on my damn phone?

On Macs, FLASH causes Safari 4 to crash often, is slow and downright buggy.
Some sites work fine, others crash the browser, often a reboot is required to get a Flash site working after a crash. This is all completely unacceptable in my opinion.

If your teenager crashed one of your cars, why the hell would you immediately give him the keys to another one?

When Adobe fixes FLASH for Macs, then and ONLY THEN should Apple say, hey let's talk about the iPhone now.
Those should be Apple's terms, plain and simple.

libertyforall
Nov 3, 2009, 10:58 AM
Who cares, Flash sucks! Click2Flash works great on Mac to limit Flash's CPU takeover...

hanpa
Nov 3, 2009, 10:59 AM
But this will probably not help since Apple will not admit their mistake. It should be up to the user to switch flash on/off if some "bad user experience" will occur. I still hope that Apple supports flash soon, they can have "off" as default.

McEngineer
Nov 3, 2009, 11:38 AM
I've changed my mind on this one. I used to be in the "kill Flash, please" group but there have been plenty of times now when I've been on travel with just my iPhone and have been unable to use a site which incorporates Flash (rightly or wrongly) as part of its critical user interface. Being able to turn on Flash support, suffering briefly through a period of high battery drain and slow response, and then turning it off again is a much smaller inconvenience than either carrying around a separate and otherwise un-needed device or simply being dead in the water.

acrisp00
Nov 3, 2009, 12:28 PM
Apple needs to get over their trip on Adobe and do what's best for their customers! As somebody who absolutely loves Apple and their products...I find some of their decisions very strange and frustrating.

nagromme
Nov 3, 2009, 12:33 PM
I donít want Flash banner ads crashing my phone and slowing my connection.

I DO want sites like Hulu to be able to deliver Flash-based standalone player apps. Adobe and Apple ARE making that possible, so Iím content.

If Adobe ever makes an efficient, stable Flash for OS X (mobile and otherwise) then Iíd be upset if Apple didnít allow it. But Iíd also disable it :o

Lara F
Nov 3, 2009, 12:43 PM
I donít want Flash banner ads crashing my phone and slowing my connection.

Sorry to single you out, but I'm sick of posts like this for one reason - Apple would not have flash on the iPhone WITHOUT AN OPTION TO TURN IT OFF. In fact that'd likely be the default and I'd have it set that way until the times I want to see streaming videos. So what exactly is the problem here?

mshepherd
Nov 3, 2009, 12:47 PM
Why doesn't adobe fix flash on the mac before they complain about not being able to work on the iphone?

chr1s60
Nov 3, 2009, 01:08 PM
I am for and against flash on the iPhone. There are times when I will be away from a computer and need to view a site that happens to be flash based and it frustrates me when I attempt to view it on my iPhone. At the same time, there are a lot of annoying flash based ads and other garbage that I do not care for or want to see on my iPhone.

MacFly123
Nov 3, 2009, 01:17 PM
Drinking from the Apple koolaid again, huh?

Perhaps if you pulled your head out of SJ's bum long enough to look around, you'd notice the vast majority of iPhone users are being punished in Apple's attempt to mold the internet in it's own image.

A large number of websites use flash in their design, and are completely inaccessible without flash support. Inefficient or not, that's fact, and we're the losers here.

Sorry, just stating facts. Flash is a horribly inferior technology and has crippled the web from a much greater potential. I honestly have not missed it at all on my iPhone and I block it with ClickToFlash on my Macs. I would GLADLY forgo Flash if Apple can kill it forever. Web developers need to use approved open standards and stop using Flash as a crutch. And if by Apple's own image, you mean far superior open standards that are approved by the W3C, then yes! :rolleyes:

djellison
Nov 3, 2009, 01:24 PM
How is that ironic (Miss Morissette)? :confused:

Because this forum, one that expends an epic number of posts lambasting Microsoft and anything it ever does, simply has to conceed that's it's doing a good job in this instance. Microsoft, making the Apple experience, better.

rockosmodurnlif
Nov 3, 2009, 01:39 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/iphone/2009/11/02/adobe-points-finger-at-apple-on-get-flash-page-for-iphone/)


http://images.macrumors.com/article/2009/11/02/165819-adobe_flash.png
It's nice of Abode to tell me who I should thank.

macUser2007
Nov 3, 2009, 01:56 PM
Sorry, just stating facts. Flash is a horribly inferior technology and has crippled the web from a much greater potential. I honestly have not missed it at all on my iPhone and I block it with ClickToFlash on my Macs. I would GLADLY forgo Flash if Apple can kill it forever. Web developers need to use approved open standards and stop using Flash as a crutch. And if by Apple's own image, you mean far superior open standards that are approved by the W3C, then yes! :rolleyes:

Frankly, the vast majority of users, and developers, and content providers, DO NOT care what you personally want, no matter how much you roll your eyes.

Flash is on virtually every computer on Earth, and pretty soon it will be on virtually every smart phone as well. Except the iPhone, of course.

Flash works very well, for the vast majority of users. The fact that Apple has not expended the minimum effort required to get Flash working more efficiently in OS X, is mostly problem for only those relatively few of us, who prefer to use Mac OS.

(In my testing on OS 10.6.1, Safari is by far the worst of all browsers at handling Flash: it pushes the CPU to 77%, while Firefox and Camino stay at less than 49%. Safari is also by far the worst on Windows 7, where on the same video it runs to almost 30% of CPU, while IE8 is at 1%, and Firefox and Chrome are at 4%.

The vast majority of users enjoy what Flash provides.

And, Flash does things which would be impossible, or very hard, or prohibitively expensive, to do with other currently available technologies, and deploy them for all browsers and systems.

So, I repeat: the rest of the world DOES NOT care, that you, and a handful of weird backroom guys, have an irrational hatred of Flash. Move on.

The bottom line is, if Apple doesn't get Flash on the iPhone, it will quickly lose market share to Android. It's a HUGE missing feature, bigger than cut/paste and turn-by turn navigation and mms rolled together, and you can bet it will be advertised as such.

mobi
Nov 3, 2009, 02:11 PM
Adobe stop your childish games. Fix your applications. CS3 w/ Snow Leopard is horrible. Boooooo!

Griffter
Nov 3, 2009, 02:51 PM
I'm suprised its taken Adobe this long to complain... good shout!

Treq
Nov 3, 2009, 02:54 PM
...while Firefox and Camino stay at less than 49%.

On a full sized computer? That's horrible. Adobe has to get their act together and make flash more efficient before they can be allowed on the iphone. :rolleyes:

kdarling
Nov 3, 2009, 03:15 PM
On a full sized computer? That's horrible. Adobe has to get their act together and make flash more efficient before they can be allowed on the iphone. :rolleyes:

Well, yes. That's a point that's been repeated, and replied to, ad nauseum.

One more time:

Remaking Flash 10 for more efficient mobile use is exactly what Adobe is trying to do, with the help of ARM designers.

If it runs well, full Flash could become popular on mobiles* as a universal application development and delivery platform. If it doesn't run well, it'll have to wait until cpus get faster.

* With the probable early exception of the iPhone.

macUser2007
Nov 3, 2009, 03:31 PM
On a full sized computer? That's horrible. Adobe has to get their act together and make flash more efficient before they can be allowed on the iphone. :rolleyes:

Well, yes, on a full-size C2D iMac.

But, did you notice the part where on a similar, C2D AOPEN Mini, running Windows 7, IE8 runs the same Flash movie at 0%-1%, Chrome and Firefox at 4%, but Safari goes to almost 30%.

I'd say it's Apple that has the problem, and not Adobe.

Flash works just fine, and it's useful and necessary to the vast majority of users. Adobe seems to be doing a very good job with 10, and from what I've seen, it runs just fine on mobiles presumably less powerful than the iPhone.

The way I see it, if there is a pi$$ing match between Apple and Adobe, and Adobe takes its ball (Creative Suite) and walks away from Apple, the Mac OS will die, for all practical purposes.

Anyway, the iPhone must have Flash, if it is to remain competitive, and Apple really needs to dedicate some resources, and make sure Flash (and Java) run better on OS X.

bigdaddyp
Nov 3, 2009, 04:07 PM
I am assuming that Apple has not spent any effort on making Flash run smoothly on Os X, but honestly its been almost 4 years since Adobe bought Macromedia and they still can't be bothered to make it run right? Really? And how long did it take for Microsoft to make a better performing Flash replacement (silverlight) for a competing Os no less. Well jeeze no fracking wonder why Apple has had enough and refuses to budge on Flash for iPhone. If you were in Apples shoes would you trust Adobe to give you a well coded port of Flash that didn't turn the iphone into battery sucking, testicle roasting hot plate?

I installed an early beta of Windows 7 (about 5-6 months from the GM) and was stunned that even then flash ran better then in Leopard. This tells me that Adobe is spending all their time on optimization for windows, obviously their largest market. And that is understandable but their arrogance in not bothering to ever give mac users a better product is pissing me off. So I have and will continue to use it as little as possible until Adobe shows us mac users some respect.

bigdaddyp
Nov 3, 2009, 04:10 PM
Well, yes. That's a point that's been repeated, and replied to, ad nauseum.

One more time:

Remaking Flash 10 for more efficient mobile use is exactly what Adobe is trying to do, with the help of ARM designers.

If it runs well, full Flash could become popular on mobiles* as a universal application development and delivery platform. If it doesn't run well, it'll have to wait until cpus get faster.

* With the probable early exception of the iPhone.

Yes but so far the few phones that have had the full version of flash on them like htc reviewers have savaged.

MacFly123
Nov 3, 2009, 04:18 PM
Frankly, the vast majority of users, and developers, and content providers, DO NOT care what you personally want, no matter how much you roll your eyes.

Flash is on virtually every computer on Earth, and pretty soon it will be on virtually every smart phone as well. Except the iPhone, of course.

Flash works very well, for the vast majority of users. The fact that Apple has not expended the minimum effort required to get Flash working more efficiently in OS X, is mostly problem for only those relatively few of us, who prefer to use Mac OS.

(In my testing on OS 10.6.1, Safari is by far the worst of all browsers at handling Flash: it pushes the CPU to 77%, while Firefox and Camino stay at less than 49%. Safari is also by far the worst on Windows 7, where on the same video it runs to almost 30% of CPU, while IE8 is at 1%, and Firefox and Chrome are at 4%.

The vast majority of users enjoy what Flash provides.

And, Flash does things which would be impossible, or very hard, or prohibitively expensive, to do with other currently available technologies, and deploy them for all browsers and systems.

So, I repeat: the rest of the world DOES NOT care, that you, and a handful of weird backroom guys, have an irrational hatred of Flash. Move on.

The bottom line is, if Apple doesn't get Flash on the iPhone, it will quickly lose market share to Android. It's a HUGE missing feature, bigger than cut/paste and turn-by turn navigation and mms rolled together, and you can bet it will be advertised as such.

Agree to disagree!

However, it is not just me. Anyone that knows the history of the web and the technologies behind it including flash does not like Flash, and knows that it is an inefficient and unnecessary piece of crap. The fact that one of, if not the most powerful tech company on earth agrees might make you think twice! :rolleyes:

What do you think Apple stands to gain from this? They are pushing OPEN STANDARDS! And if Flash is such a gaping hole in the iPhone why would such a huge powerful company let a flagship product wilt when there is nothing to gain from it for them? Think about it, that is how crappy Flash is!

Personally I am happy that there is a company out there like Apple that will do whatever it takes to push progress and top of the line technology in ways that no other company has the balls to do! I am glad that they are determined to weed out inferior technology in the name of progress! They even obsolete their own products at the hight of them being the most popular gadgets on earth, and WHY?... Because they thought of something cooler. You know any other company with the balls to do that? No, they would just milk the product as long as they possibly can, and then serve a minor update that isn't too cost prohibitive.

Ya, I'll stick with Apple's M.O. Thanks! :p

SpinThis!
Nov 3, 2009, 05:10 PM
Web developers need to use approved open standards and stop using Flash as a crutch. And if by Apple's own image, you mean far superior open standards that are approved by the W3C, then yes! :rolleyes:
How is using what's often times necessary a crutch? Trying putting any kind of multimedia on your website or handling reliable file uploads and you'll quickly see why you need Flash to reach the broadest audience. Developers have been shouting to the W3C for years for what we need and HTML5 still doesn't address much of the stuff you'd rely on Flash for.

Sadly, most Flash use is gratuitously used by developers with no html standards based alternative (which is stupid to say the least) so Flash gets a bad rap but when it's done well, it blends right in. There's a reason why Yahoo, Gmail, youtube, vimeo, etc. all use flash.

Dustman
Nov 3, 2009, 05:16 PM
Apple,you greedy apple give us flash even if you allow a way to click and hold that Lego piece to save a URL fir later viewing in a app specific flash player

Cydia is your friend. Of course Mobile Safari doesn't (officially) support file downloads so regardless you're still SOL unless you predownload and transfer your FLV/SWF files.

Dustman
Nov 3, 2009, 05:34 PM
..Snip

Personally I am happy that there is a company out there like Apple that will do whatever it takes to push progress and top of the line technology in ways that no other company has the balls to do! I am glad that they are determined to weed out inferior technology in the name of progress! They even obsolete their own products at the hight of them being the most popular gadgets on earth, and WHY?... Because they thought of something cooler. You know any other company with the balls to do that? No, they would just milk the product as long as they possibly can, and then serve a minor update that isn't too cost prohibitive.

Ya, I'll stick with Apple's M.O. Thanks! :p .../snip

You do realize that the same company milked the GMA 950 for over 3 years. Not only that but in the case of the Mac Mini, they removed the dedicated 64 MB card that existed in the G4 days, replaced it with the Intel integrated one, and charged 100 bucks more for it.

I could get into Cinema Displays, Mac Pros, or anything else non-iPhone but its almost too easy.

MacFly123
Nov 3, 2009, 05:36 PM
How is using what's often times necessary a crutch? Trying putting any kind of multimedia on your website or handling reliable file uploads and you'll quickly see why you need Flash to reach the broadest audience. Developers have been shouting to the W3C for years for what we need and HTML5 still doesn't address much of the stuff you'd rely on Flash for.

Sadly, most Flash use is gratuitously used by developers with no html standards based alternative (which is stupid to say the least) so Flash gets a bad rap but when it's done well, it blends right in. There's a reason why Yahoo, Gmail, youtube, vimeo, etc. all use flash.

YouTube uses Flash and H.264.

Look... All I know is, if a HUGE, INTERNATIONAL company like Apple can pull off their website without it which gets millions and millions of hits every day and is very well designed and media rich, there is no excuse!

Treq
Nov 3, 2009, 05:45 PM
Well, yes, on a full-size C2D iMac.

But, did you notice the part where on a similar, C2D AOPEN Mini, running Windows 7, IE8 runs the same Flash movie at 0%-1%, Chrome and Firefox at 4%, but Safari goes to almost 30%.

I'd say it's Apple that has the problem, and not Adobe.

Flash works just fine, and it's useful and necessary to the vast majority of users. Adobe seems to be doing a very good job with 10, and from what I've seen, it runs just fine on mobiles presumably less powerful than the iPhone.

The way I see it, if there is a pi$$ing match between Apple and Adobe, and Adobe takes its ball (Creative Suite) and walks away from Apple, the Mac OS will die, for all practical purposes.

Anyway, the iPhone must have Flash, if it is to remain competitive, and Apple really needs to dedicate some resources, and make sure Flash (and Java) run better on OS X.

First, comparing flash for windows to flash for osx is like comparing apples and oranges. Second, As for your numbers for flash on Safari vs Firefox... I get the same numbers for both. 70%! That sucks any way you slice it. Given that Safari is the fastest browser out there, I don't think it's apples fault. Flash just isn't written well for apple hardware, and until it is, apple won't allow it on the iphone.

delawn
Nov 3, 2009, 06:25 PM
The amount of crap in this thread is amazing:

1) Flash could never be a normal 'App' because it has to operate as a plugin for Safari since it's not a stand alone product on its own. For this reason, it would at the very least HAVE to be co-developed by Apple and included in a software update.



Quite amazing is also the amount of misinformation.

Apparently you have not heard of AIR (Adobe Integrated Runtime). It is an instance of the Flash player that has more functionality and runs outside of the browser.

http://www.adobe.com/products/air/

Of course if you mean in the context of the iPhone only, then the above does not apply.

MacDSmith2
Nov 3, 2009, 10:49 PM
Given the cpu usage problems on new iMacs attributed in part to Flash, its a good thing Apple does not allow this resource hog onto the iPhone or your batteries would last 20 minutes! Adobe or Apple has to address the technical problems with Flash before it can be used on the iPhone or replace it with a different technology because as it is now, Flash is a bag of hurt on all Apple platforms.

Lara F
Nov 3, 2009, 11:20 PM
And again I ask what the matter is with having flash as an *option*. Sigh. I guess you're the same users who enjoy being stuck on the Pandora screen...

I wish there could at least be a decent jailbreak solution.

kdarling
Nov 3, 2009, 11:25 PM
Look... All I know is, if a HUGE, INTERNATIONAL company like Apple can pull off their website without it which gets millions and millions of hits every day and is very well designed and media rich, there is no excuse!

Apple's website was thick with Flash and frames when the iPhone was first announced. It was the "real internet".

Steve Jobs deliberately stayed away from displaying the Apple website on an iPhone for months... because Safari couldn't display it correctly, if at all.

At the time, I noted online what he was doing, and commented that Apple was going to have to totally redesign their website before the iPhone went on sale.

And so they did.

iphones4evry1
Nov 4, 2009, 12:31 AM
Who cares about Flash?

I am constantly going to websites that I cannot view because the iPhone is lacking Flash player. You don't like Flash? Great, if there is something better out there, then competition will cause the better product to prevail. But for now, iPhone users are being deprived of THOUSANDS of Flash websites that other smartphone owners are able to view!!!!!!!!!! :mad:

Why is Apple blocking Flash? This is one for the FCC! Same reason that Microsoft used to block Netscape. Apple wants websites to use Apple software and not Flash. FAIL! It's a violation of free markets! Here comes a Netscape-Microsoft lawsuit in the Supreme Court, except this time with Flash-Apple.

Freak C
Nov 4, 2009, 01:41 AM
So you think that Adobe is bad because CS3 does not run on Snow Leopard?

Think again.

CS3 has been published a long while ago, and Snow Leopard is brand new. A lot of system libraries have changed. I do not expect Windows 3.1 software to run correctly on Windows 7 either.

Are there any Mac developers out there?

Apple must have caused software vendors to rewrite their software a gazillion times:

- they switched from the 68K to the PowerPC to Intel
- they switched from OS9 to Carbon to Cocoa
- for Snow Leopard, if you want to run as a 64-bit app, you have to switch to the Cocoa libraries, and much of Carbon is deprecated.

Apples next OS will most likely drop Carbon altogether. I have written programs for the Mac for a long time now, and I have spent 75% of my productivity just rewriting my programs over and over again to adopt them to Apple's library changes.

Adobe is big, but I bet that many of their Mac programmers are busy just following Apple as they try to leave software vendors in the dust because they switch system libraries and CPUs at will. Did Microsoft ever do this? Yes, partly - they went from 16 to 32 to 64 bits. But I can still run the Reversi game that came with Windows 1.03 on Windows 7!

And you Java lovers - go to the Sun web site and install Java. Just try. I have not seen complaints that this is impossible.

This is not a technical issue. Every skilled team of programmers can make their software run on another platform. This is a battle of lawyers. Apple does not permit any bytecode execution engine (such as the Java and ActionScript VMs) to run on the iPhone. Period.

HyperZboy
Nov 4, 2009, 01:57 AM
Frankly, the vast majority of users, and developers, and content providers, DO NOT care what you personally want, no matter how much you roll your eyes.

Flash is on virtually every computer on Earth, and pretty soon it will be on virtually every smart phone as well. Except the iPhone, of course.

Flash works very well, for the vast majority of users. The fact that Apple has not expended the minimum effort required to get Flash working more efficiently in OS X, is mostly problem for only those relatively few of us, who prefer to use Mac OS.

(In my testing on OS 10.6.1, Safari is by far the worst of all browsers at handling Flash: it pushes the CPU to 77%, while Firefox and Camino stay at less than 49%. Safari is also by far the worst on Windows 7, where on the same video it runs to almost 30% of CPU, while IE8 is at 1%, and Firefox and Chrome are at 4%.

The vast majority of users enjoy what Flash provides.

And, Flash does things which would be impossible, or very hard, or prohibitively expensive, to do with other currently available technologies, and deploy them for all browsers and systems.

So, I repeat: the rest of the world DOES NOT care, that you, and a handful of weird backroom guys, have an irrational hatred of Flash. Move on.

The bottom line is, if Apple doesn't get Flash on the iPhone, it will quickly lose market share to Android. It's a HUGE missing feature, bigger than cut/paste and turn-by turn navigation and mms rolled together, and you can bet it will be advertised as such.

I'm amazed that you investigated so heavily the CPU usage and yet STILL came to the wrong conclusion, that this is Apple's fault.

For the record, you're completely wrong that FLASH works well on anything but Windows PCs.

Did you not notice in those numbers that FLASH doesn't work well on ALL MACS ON ALL BROWSERS ??? And FLASH is the reason for crashes on both POWERPC and INTEL Macs, even brand new Macs, from what I'm reading in other threads here on MacRumors.

So, how again is this Apple's fault that FLASH doesn't work on any recent Apple platform, iPhone, PowerPC, or INTEL?

Because Adobe doesn't care and has written crappy software. It has nothing to do with Apple.
Not much else crashes any of my Macs, so how is this Apple's fault?

Can you imagine what would happen if Apple let the current version of FLASH on the iPhone and peoples' phones started crashing like their Apple Macs are now? It would be on FOX NEWS!
Apple's making the right call here. The ball is in Adobe's court to get it right first on Macs.
Then I'll insist Apple let FLASH on the iPhone, but not a day sooner.

And I will bet dollars to doughnuts that your Android prediction turns out wrong too, FLASH or no FLASH.

I am constantly going to websites that I cannot view because the iPhone is lacking Flash player. You don't like Flash? Great, if there is something better out there, then competition will cause the better product to prevail. But for now, iPhone users are being deprived of THOUSANDS of Flash websites that other smartphone owners are able to view!!!!!!!!!! :mad:

Why is Apple blocking Flash? This is one for the FCC! Same reason that Microsoft used to block Netscape. Apple wants websites to use Apple software and not Flash. FAIL! It's a violation of free markets! Here comes a Netscape-Microsoft lawsuit in the Supreme Court, except this time with Flash-Apple.

If FLASH is an epic fail on both INTEL and POWERPC Macs and with both Safari and Firefox on Macs, how the hell do you think it's going to do on the iPhone?

This is NOT Apple's problem in my opinion. Adobe has just dropped the ball.
If FLASH crashes on most people's Macs, how do you think it will fair on the iPhone, since it's mostly the same browser?

Please people, think before you put your feet in your mouths.

knightlie
Nov 4, 2009, 07:26 AM
Don't just blame Adobe...blame apple too. It's a code/OS issue. It's works perfectly on PCs.

Ahh, the armchair programmers are out again. Exactly what is a "code/OS issue"?

Apple is not responsible for Adobes crappy code. The fact that it "works perfectly" on PCs is completely irrelevant. I can write a program that works well on Windows and a program that works crappy on OSX - how is that Apples fault?


Why is Apple blocking Flash? This is one for the FCC! Same reason that Microsoft used to block Netscape. Apple wants websites to use Apple software and not Flash. FAIL! It's a violation of free markets! Here comes a Netscape-Microsoft lawsuit in the Supreme Court, except this time with Flash-Apple.

Actually, Apple wants websites to use open standards such as HTML, which is not Apples software. Flash is proprietary and is certainly not a free market. You should cut down on the caffeine.

Darkroom
Nov 4, 2009, 07:42 AM
YouTube uses Flash and H.264.

Look... All I know is, if a HUGE, INTERNATIONAL company like Apple can pull off their website without it which gets millions and millions of hits every day and is very well designed and media rich, there is no excuse!

Actually, Apple wants websites to use open standards such as HTML, which is not Apples software. Flash is proprietary and is certainly not a free market. You should cut down on the caffeine.

is QuickTime an open standard?

Treq
Nov 4, 2009, 11:08 AM
Can you imagine what would happen if Apple let the current version of FLASH on the iPhone and peoples' phones started crashing like their Apple Macs are now? It would be on FOX NEWS!


But if it was on Fox, you just know they wouldn't be blaming apple or flash... they would blame Obama. :D

MorphingDragon
Nov 4, 2009, 11:32 AM
I'm amazed that you investigated so heavily the CPU usage and yet STILL came to the wrong conclusion, that this is Apple's fault.

For the record, you're completely wrong that FLASH works well on anything but Windows PCs.

Did you not notice in those numbers that FLASH doesn't work well on ALL MACS ON ALL BROWSERS ??? And FLASH is the reason for crashes on both POWERPC and INTEL Macs, even brand new Macs, from what I'm reading in other threads here on MacRumors.

So, how again is this Apple's fault that FLASH doesn't work on any recent Apple platform, iPhone, PowerPC, or INTEL?

Because Adobe doesn't care and has written crappy software. It has nothing to do with Apple.
Not much else crashes any of my Macs, so how is this Apple's fault?

Can you imagine what would happen if Apple let the current version of FLASH on the iPhone and peoples' phones started crashing like their Apple Macs are now? It would be on FOX NEWS!
Apple's making the right call here. The ball is in Adobe's court to get it right first on Macs.
Then I'll insist Apple let FLASH on the iPhone, but not a day sooner.

And I will bet dollars to doughnuts that your Android prediction turns out wrong too, FLASH or no FLASH.



If FLASH is an epic fail on both INTEL and POWERPC Macs and with both Safari and Firefox on Macs, how the hell do you think it's going to do on the iPhone?

This is NOT Apple's problem in my opinion. Adobe has just dropped the ball.
If FLASH crashes on most people's Macs, how do you think it will fair on the iPhone, since it's mostly the same browser?

Please people, think before you put your feet in your mouths.

Its epic fail on WinMO and Windows and Linux.

MorphingDragon
Nov 4, 2009, 11:35 AM
is QuickTime an open standard?

The only "Open" Media standard is Vorbis and FLAC.

macUser2007
Nov 4, 2009, 02:25 PM
...
Did you not notice in those numbers that FLASH doesn't work well on ALL MACS ON ALL BROWSERS ??? And FLASH is the reason for crashes on both POWERPC and INTEL Macs, even brand new Macs, from what I'm reading in other threads here on MacRumors.

....

Please people, think before you put your feet in your mouths.

Uhm, you are a bit confused.

First, Flash works just fine on most modern Macs. The only noticeable issue I see is, that on a Mac Mini C2D 2.0GHz and a Mac Book C2D 2.0GHz the fans go crazy when viewing Flash.

The problem is, that Flash in OS X requires much higher CPU exertion, than Flash in Windows. But also, in my experience, running Flash in Safari pushes the CPU significantly harder, than running Flash in Firefox, Camino or even Chrome (which is also a Webkit browser.) See this post (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=8739278&postcount=427) for exact numbers.

Which tells me, that Apple has done a poor job of getting Safari to work well with Flash.

In addition, even if Adobe is lazy, obtuse, incompetent, or whatever you want to believe they are, during all these years, Apple could have dedicated a competent employee, to guide Adobe and help make Flash work better on OS X. Any normal business would have made this effort, if they thought it was a problem worth investing in. But I bet, that Apple figures that most users don't even realize that there is a high CPU load, and of the once who do, at least some will be dumb enough to just blame Flash for everything.

BTW, Safari has major issues with Java stuff as well, and most Safari crashes I had in OS 10.5.x, were due to that, not Flash.

As to the iPhone, the issue is most likely Apple's reluctance to open the door to Flash apps competition to its own Applications Store. I am certain, that Apple will have Flash on the iPhone, once it starts losing sales to the new crop of Androids coming up.

Darkroom
Nov 4, 2009, 03:39 PM
The only "Open" Media standard is Vorbis and FLAC.

it was a rhetorical question is response to MacFly123 and Knightlie's arguments that apple only follows open standards, which still allow them to create a media rich website using only open standards, that QuickTime is not.

on a lighter note: this is one of my fav flash sites (http://www.onemotion.com/flash/spider/). as you can tell, it's built only with HTML, javascript and CSS :p

Treq
Nov 4, 2009, 04:58 PM
Uhm, you are a bit confused.


Which tells me, that Apple has done a poor job of getting Safari to work well with Flash.



That's like saying that Microsoft should make windows work better with iTunes... kinda backwards.

Given that Safari is the fastest browser out there, I think Apple has done their part. Adobe needs to step up, and optimize flash for osx.

kpbpsw
Nov 4, 2009, 06:07 PM
We need to get developers to use open standards and flash is not!
Besides flash being a processor hog (bad code especially on the Mac) it is bad for search engines, it is bad for web standards, it is bad for design.

At one time it was the only way to get rich media and non-refresh dynamic content on the web. Now there are much better lower overhead, open, web standards based ways of doing this. Flash should go away!

Apple taking a stand against flash is good. All the internet needs now is a open standard video codec!

What we all need to do is educate / demand that web developers / sited eliminate flash and use open standards.

Personally I do not use sites that require flash for operability - one of my favorite hotel chains "upgraded" their site to a flash based reservation system - it looks great but is slow and un-reliable, - so I stopped staying there and emailed them telling them they lost a customer due to their bad flash based reservation system!

I disagree that people don't care about flash players. Plenty of sites out there use flash extensively and do not offer a non-flash version. Adding adobe flash capability to the iphone would make it that much better in my opinion. Just because apple doesn't want it, doesn't mean it's not useful. I for one believe that apple "sometimes" listens to it's users, and if enough people complain, apple will react. Think apps for the iphone (remember apple's stand, it's an ipod, not a computer), cut/paste and push service. Background apps seem to be the next barrier to be broken, why not flash?

As far as adobe and MS "holding back" web progression, the whole point of flash is that it is a tool that makes highly interactive media sites easier to accomplish.

kpbpsw
Nov 4, 2009, 06:18 PM
Apple's website was thick with Flash and frames when the iPhone was first announced. It was the "real internet".

Steve Jobs deliberately stayed away from displaying the Apple website on an iPhone for months... because Safari couldn't display it correctly, if at all.

At the time, I noted online what he was doing, and commented that Apple was going to have to totally redesign their website before the iPhone went on sale.

And so they did.

Apple never used flash for anything more than simple animated ads on their site! And moved away from that to Quicktime based video. If you were seeing Flash it was because you were on a PC with out quicktime and the Apple site was falling back to flash!

Flash is evil it is not searchable, it is a black stain on the open web!

macUser2007
Nov 4, 2009, 06:31 PM
That's like saying that Microsoft should make windows work better with iTunes... kinda backwards.

Given that Safari is the fastest browser out there, I think Apple has done their part. Adobe needs to step up, and optimize flash for osx.

Well, if iTunes was a plugin, used by virtually 100% of the world's computer users, then Microsoft would care enough, to ensure that it ran well on its platform.

Apple has been fairly hostile to Flash, and has obviously not cared enough, to ensure that Flash performs well on its platform.

And as far as Safari being the fastest browser, you believe in ads way too much. Safari is the most inefficient of the major browsers with Flash, and it has some serious issues with Java. It takes it about three times longer to load my iGoogle page, than either Camino or Firefox.

After I did my tests with Flash (see my post above), I finally changed from having Safari as the default browser, to Firefox 3.6 Beta, on all my Macs, as well as on my HTPC (W7). Safari has a great UI, IMO, but I actually customized Firefox to look just like Safari, so I am happy.

But if my iPhones 3GS don't get Flash in the next few months, through jailbreaking or officially, I'll be looking carefully at some of the new Androids with the enormous screens soon.

I love Apple, I love their design. But I already switched to Windows for my Home Theater box, after realizing that Apple would never deliver what I wanted, and I'll switch my phones even easier, if my Internet experience is crippled, because of the lack of Flash.

MacFly123
Nov 4, 2009, 07:00 PM
it was a rhetorical question is response to MacFly123 and Knightlie's arguments that apple only follows open standards, which still allow them to create a media rich website using only open standards, that QuickTime is not.

on a lighter note: this is one of my fav flash sites (http://www.onemotion.com/flash/spider/). as you can tell, it's built only with HTML, javascript and CSS :p

I never claimed QuickTime was open. I simply stated that Apple can very ably develop a huge robust website WITHOUT FLASH!

No, QuickTime is not open, but Apple heavily invests in pushing open standards online as well as in a lot of their products!

Treq
Nov 4, 2009, 07:14 PM
And as far as Safari being the fastest browser, you believe in ads way too much...

No, I believe the benchmarks...
http://service.futuremark.com/peacekeeper/browserStatistics.action

You'll notice that only the Chrome beta is faster than Safari 4, and only on one specific processor. Everywhere else Safari wins.


And when has there ever been a Safari ad?

dashcs
Nov 4, 2009, 07:19 PM
So you think that Adobe is bad because CS3 does not run on Snow Leopard?

Think again.

CS3 has been published a long while ago, and Snow Leopard is brand new. A lot of system libraries have changed. I do not expect Windows 3.1 software to run correctly on Windows 7 either.

Are there any Mac developers out there?


Whats your point here?
You state old software wouldn't run on a new OS yet you go off and rant in the rest of your post.


Apple must have caused software vendors to rewrite their software a gazillion times:

- they switched from the 68K to the PowerPC to Intel



Software vendors writing their software gazillion times...please.

Apple made it easier for software vendors.
When going to intel from PPC,software vendors were freaking out that their software wouldn't run.Guess what,Apple came out with Rosetta.There was no problems



- they switched from OS9 to Carbon to Cocoa
- for Snow Leopard, if you want to run as a 64-bit app, you have to switch to the Cocoa libraries, and much of Carbon is deprecated.


Apples next OS will most likely drop Carbon altogether. I have written programs for the Mac for a long time now, and I have spent 75% of my productivity just rewriting my programs over and over again to adopt them to Apple's library changes.


Woah Carbon was for OS9 Developers

And with OS X,Apple has carbon and cocoa.
They had theses 2 API for such a long time,they should I just went to Cocoa years ago but no they stuck with 2 to help the software developers.
Besides Carbon is crap,only argument carbon developers used was
"Well the Finder.App was made in carbon so carbon is a better then cocoa"
lol


Adobe is big, but I bet that many of their Mac programmers are busy just following Apple as they try to leave software vendors in the dust because they switch system libraries and CPUs at will.



Only thing here thats valid if the company develops in carbon.
And for Poor adobe thats the case.

Maybe at this point adobe CS5 can actually be we-written from scratch instead of adding extra code to a already horrible broken coded program which is what Adobe being doing for the past couple of years.

macUser2007
Nov 4, 2009, 10:14 PM
We need to get developers to use open standards and flash is not!...
...
What we all need to do is educate / demand that web developers / sited eliminate flash and use open standards.

Yeah!!! You forgot the part about world peace and end of hunger....

Personally I do not use sites that require flash for operability - one of my favorite hotel chains "upgraded" their site to a flash based reservation system - it looks great but is slow and un-reliable, - so I stopped staying there and emailed them telling them they lost a customer due to their bad flash based reservation system!

Yeah!!! You against the world! I suppose you also write to fashion magazines, complaining that all their models have perfect, skinny bodies....

But all kidding aside, without Flash, you must be having a pretty poor and limited web experience. Or, you just hang out on the Apple site.... :D

Treq
Nov 4, 2009, 11:53 PM
Yeah!!! You forgot the part about world peace and end of hunger....



Yeah!!! You against the world! I suppose you also write to fashion magazines, complaining that all their models have perfect, skinny bodies....

But all kidding aside, without Flash, you must be having a pretty poor and limited web experience. Or, you just hang out on the Apple site.... :D

So, let me get this straight.
You are for:
Sloppy code, anorexia, bulimia, and famine.

And you are against:
Apple and world peace.

Good choice.

MacFly123
Nov 5, 2009, 12:17 AM
I like this debate. :p

Bottom line, people in here that don't think Flash is bad and holding back web progression are either uneducated, or misinformed PERIOD!

It is as simple as that. That is all I have to say! :rolleyes: Sorry guys.

UTclassof89
Nov 5, 2009, 08:03 PM
Apple never used flash for anything more than simple animated ads on their site! And moved away from that to Quicktime based video. If you were seeing Flash it was because you were on a PC with out quicktime and the Apple site was falling back to flash!

Flash is evil it is not searchable, it is a black stain on the open web!

Learn about it before you bash it. Flash IS searchable (Google something with "filetype:swf" to show only results occurring in SWF files). It's also deep-linkable (see greenplanetsearch.com). It's used for much more than ads (see pandora.com and youtube.com). Anyone who's taken a Flash class knows that its easy to detect the FlashPLayer, so non-flash content can be served up in the absence of the FlashPlayer.

Wake up: it isn't 1998 anymore: Flash is a full-fledged OOP environment now!

scottness
Nov 7, 2009, 06:07 AM
Seeing how flash is handled on my MBA, I'd love for it to slowly fade into Oblivion. Flash, that is.

Cinemagic
Nov 7, 2009, 08:37 AM
Like Flash or hate Flash, the fact remains that Flash enabled web site have a major prevalence on the web. I hate the fact that I should have the most technologically available device, but don't just because Apple won't allow Flash - which they could easily allow.

Politics and a pissing contest between Apple and Adobe and I have to suffer. Jobs is just trying to push for his own web app. But there is a jailbreak Flash app. Jobs may not put customers' desires at the top of his list, but DevTeam does.

alec
Nov 7, 2009, 09:37 AM
When, oh when, will the internet stop being held down by one companies awful video format?

Treq
Nov 7, 2009, 11:15 AM
Like Flash or hate Flash, the fact remains that Flash enabled web site have a major prevalence on the web. I hate the fact that I should have the most technologically available device, but don't just because Apple won't allow Flash - which they could easily allow.

Politics and a pissing contest between Apple and Adobe and I have to suffer. Jobs is just trying to push for his own web app. But there is a jailbreak Flash app. Jobs may not put customers' desires at the top of his list, but DevTeam does.

Setting aside wether or not they "could easily allow" with all their various carrier agreements and such. Flash is just a bloated buggy hog that will make the iphone run badly. Apple won't allow that. And they shouldn't.
Flash needs to be rewritten from the ground up. Optimized to work with OS X and the iPhone OS (which is a version of osx). Maybe then Apple will let it on the iPhone.

thesheep
Nov 8, 2009, 03:03 AM
Flash can be very good in websites, or it can be badly misused. Just like most other tools. It exists as a powerful option for adding animation, video and various other effects and functionality.

It is a big shame that Flash is a closed standard, as it gives one company (Adobe) too much power in the web, which should be all about openness. So this sort of gives some credibility to Apple's decision not to support it. But not really. Afterall, Apple is happy for Flash to run in desktop versions of Safari.

Apple needs to be pragmatic and provide the best user experience they can. My guess is that there were originally significant technical hurdles to making Flash work well in the iPhone. But that was only 1 reason. They also wanted to push their own solutions (quicktime) and so maybe they haven't tried particularly hard to make Flash work. It hasn't been a top priority. It obviously is a bit of a problem now and they need to do something about it.

The best thing of all, however, is if Adobe would make Flash an open standard. So they can also stop whining here.

Treq
Nov 9, 2009, 02:11 AM
They also wanted to push their own solutions (quicktime) and so maybe they haven't tried particularly hard to make Flash work. It hasn't been a top priority. It obviously is a bit of a problem now and they need to do something about it.


Why does Apple have to do something about it? Haven't they given Adobe all the info (specs, requirements and restrictions) that they need to make a flash player for the iPhone? If Adobe can't do it within those parameters, then it's on them.

NightFox
Nov 9, 2009, 05:08 AM
I think it's ironic all this Apple not liking Flash business when the iPod/Nike+ pages are some of the most Flash-heavy sites I've seen. :confused:

wildmac
Nov 9, 2009, 10:20 AM
First off, to all the Flash haters, you guys are the myopic people that prevent real progress. Sure there are a lot of bad flash webpages, but there is plenty of content out there, games, video, and more that runs on Flash and you don't know it. Video is the king, and for some reason Apple doesn't want you viewing video apart from what they sell you. It's all about the $$$. Want proof? Apple added their own Flash player that only works with Utube. They had to do that or they would have been killed in the press, but still they have their own custom flash player for UTube video, but block all else.

Again, it's all about the $$$. They want to SELL you video, they don't want you getting it for free, or worse yet, buying it from someone else.

It's all part of Apple's arrogance. Now I love my MacPro, but I'm forced to buy Dell monitors because Apple keeps changing the connectors. The latest Apple 24" monitor has a cable that's too short, and an adapter that requires you to buy a new video card, or a new laptop. Get real Apple. You are going to chase people away.

wildmac
Nov 9, 2009, 10:24 AM
Why does Apple have to do something about it? Haven't they given Adobe all the info (specs, requirements and restrictions) that they need to make a flash player for the iPhone? If Adobe can't do it within those parameters, then it's on them.

It's on Apple. It's about the $$$. They want to sell you video, and not have you watching it for free on some other site.

(And it could also be part of the original plan with AT&T, whose network really couldn't handle all that video traffic at the start, and probably still can't.

And QT will never be the video standard, because it allows you to save the content. Flash-video sites don't want you saving the video content.

Treq
Nov 9, 2009, 12:39 PM
Apple added their own Flash player that only works with Utube. They had to do that or they would have been killed in the press, but still they have their own custom flash player for UTube video, but block all else.



Umm... No. YouTube on the I phone isn't flash. It's quicktime h.264. YouTube made their site work with the iPhone, and with flash. I have my MacBook set to use quicktime when I go to YouTube because Flash player for mac is so poorly written.

Treq
Nov 9, 2009, 01:16 PM
It's on Apple. It's about the $$$. They want to sell you video, and not have you watching it for free on some other site.

(And it could also be part of the original plan with AT&T, whose network really couldn't handle all that video traffic at the start, and probably still can't.

And QT will never be the video standard, because it allows you to save the content. Flash-video sites don't want you saving the video content.

First, you are kinda contradicting yourself there. On one hand they want everyone to use the QT video standard, which allows you to save videos. But on the other hand they don't want you getting video for free from anyone else?

Second, sure apple wants to sell you video... they are in business to make money. But is that really why they aren't allowing Flash yet? And if so why are there a multitude of apps in the app store that distribute video. (Joost, MLB, EyeTV, SlingBox...) Apple makes no money from the video in those apps, just from the initial sale of the app, and only then if it isn't a free app.

balabab
Nov 27, 2009, 02:40 AM
Apple should bundle the ClickToFlash plug-in into Mobile Safari. It prevents flash from running unless you really want it to run. This should address, in part, Apple's stated reason for not allowing flash (battery drain and stability) as the user would only enable it for those parts of the web that they really want to see.

And, while they are at it, they should enable file uploads in Mobile Safari to upload photos and videos.

I hate only being able to use part of the internet on my iPhone when there is no technical reason I shouldn't be able to do both Flash on demand and file uploads.

Give this man/woman/fish (*delete as applicable*) a prize. In a nutshell, this is precisely why Adobe Flash isn't available on the iPhone - Adobe have never been able to make it work under OS X. I have a 2.33GHz Core 2 Duo MacBook Pro and Flash consumes approximately 120% processor time just to playback a low-resolution YouTube video. Under no circumstances would I want to bring code that requires so much resources to do so little to a mobile device. Can you imagine what this would do to your browsing experience and battery life?

I have a lot against Adobe Flash but it is a fact of life and therefore I would like access to Flash content on the iPhone but it has to be done in a way that is appropriate and, right now, I have absolutely no faith that Adobe has a solution that wouldn't destroy the user experience.

coolings
Nov 28, 2009, 05:06 PM
I wish Adobe would work something out. There have been numerous sites I could not pull up because of flash.

davelanger
Nov 29, 2009, 12:58 AM
Give this man/woman/fish (*delete as applicable*) a prize. In a nutshell, this is precisely why Adobe Flash isn't available on the iPhone - Adobe have never been able to make it work under OS X. I have a 2.33GHz Core 2 Duo MacBook Pro and Flash consumes approximately 120% processor time just to playback a low-resolution YouTube video. Under no circumstances would I want to bring code that requires so much resources to do so little to a mobile device. Can you imagine what this would do to your browsing experience and battery life?

I have a lot against Adobe Flash but it is a fact of life and therefore I would like access to Flash content on the iPhone but it has to be done in a way that is appropriate and, right now, I have absolutely no faith that Adobe has a solution that wouldn't destroy the user experience.

Wow I thought it was just my 5 year old mac choking on flash videos because my computer was 5 years old.

So its really because flash sucks on the mac? That is good to know

mac2x
Nov 29, 2009, 01:10 AM
Flash doesn't just stink on Macs...I avoid Flash websites like the plague on my windows box because it slows the machine down to a crawl. Granted, it's a Pentium 4, but still it sucks. On my Mac, I only notice > 50% processor time being used by flash when viewing HD vids at YouTube. Still annoying, though. Wake up, Adobe! :rolleyes:

-aggie-
Nov 29, 2009, 01:11 AM
Give this man/woman/fish (*delete as applicable*) a prize. In a nutshell, this is precisely why Adobe Flash isn't available on the iPhone - Adobe have never been able to make it work under OS X. I have a 2.33GHz Core 2 Duo MacBook Pro and Flash consumes approximately 120% processor time just to playback a low-resolution YouTube video. Under no circumstances would I want to bring code that requires so much resources to do so little to a mobile device. Can you imagine what this would do to your browsing experience and battery life?

I have a lot against Adobe Flash but it is a fact of life and therefore I would like access to Flash content on the iPhone but it has to be done in a way that is appropriate and, right now, I have absolutely no faith that Adobe has a solution that wouldn't destroy the user experience.

Isn't the user experience destroyed when we can't open a page or go to a link because we don't have Flash? I know what you're saying, but it's destroyed either way (too sloooow or nothing).

KristenM
Dec 6, 2009, 10:38 PM
Isn't the user experience destroyed when we can't open a page or go to a link because we don't have Flash? I know what you're saying, but it's destroyed either way (too sloooow or nothing).

Exactly. While flash can be a PITA, it's really annoying to not be able to get to certain websites or other content because of the lack of flash. I'd like the option to turn it on only when I need it.

adder7712
Dec 6, 2009, 11:04 PM
I really hope HTML 5 video will be widely adopted and we will be less dependent of Flash.

And is also an open standard.

ravenvii
Dec 6, 2009, 11:27 PM
Those who design websites with Flash are just lazy and poor web designers. Fortunately, those sites are becoming more and more rare.

It's video (YouTube, et al) that Flash has a stranglehold on.

I want HTML5 video to become standardized too, but the problem is, on what? QuickTime? Windows Media? It could very well end up much worse than Flash.

TennisandMusic
Dec 7, 2009, 02:17 AM
Those who design websites with Flash are just lazy and poor web designers. Fortunately, those sites are becoming more and more rare.

It's video (YouTube, et al) that Flash has a stranglehold on.

I want HTML5 video to become standardized too, but the problem is, on what? QuickTime? Windows Media? It could very well end up much worse than Flash.

As someone who has worked with all kinds of websites, this post is nothing but pure foolishness. How is a flash website being lazy, or a result of a poor web designer? It's much more difficult to be a good actionscript coder than it is to throw together some HTML tags with some CSS applied. You've got to be kidding. Also, some of the coolest looking websites I've ever seen were done entirely in flash. Flash allows you to basically create interactive apps in a web browser. It can be a great tool.

On the other hand, most flash sites aren't very good just because of the fact that most websites are not very good. A bad site does not become a good one in flash. So sure, many flash sites can be bad, but the platform itself is neutral. Great Flash programmers make amazing sites. Period.

Also, asking if HTML5 will become standardized on Quicktime or Qindows Media shows a complete lack of understanding on the topic. Quicktime and Windows Media are not codecs and nothing at all would be "standarized" on containers.

Please take care to learn how these things work before talking about them in such a manner. It is frustrating to see.