One Third of Software Pirated

[musicpyrite]

This is pretty intresting....and scary! The article talks about how how much of a problem software pirating is.

They estimate Vietnam and China pirate 92% of their software!! Those kind of numbers are unreal!


click me! (http://cssvc.pcworld.compuserve.com/computing/cis/article/0,aid,116824,00.asp)

[wdlove]

It is very sad that people would steal. Just another example of declining moral values. As always its the honest individuals that pay.

[Chip NoVaMac]

And the US is the lowest at 22%.

[LethalWolfe]

This is pretty intresting....and scary! The article talks about how how much of a problem software pirating is.

They estimate Vietnam and China pirate 92% of their software!! Those kind of numbers are unreal!


click me! (http://cssvc.pcworld.compuserve.com/computing/cis/article/0,aid,116824,00.asp)

I was reading a back issue of Variety (I think) and it had a half column blurb about a Chinese movie called "Hero." It was the highest grossing Chinese film in China and 2nd highest grossing of any film released in China (Titanic was #1). In US dollars it did around 30 million. When released on DVD it did $300k. Ouch. The company that paid for the DVD distribution rights paid either 1 or 2 million. Ouch Ouch. Compare that to the US where it's not uncommon for DVD sales to meet, or exceed, box office revenue.

Apparently pirating is so rampent in China that few films ever get released offically on DVD because there is no profit in it.


Lethal

[musicpyrite]

I was reading a back issue of Variety (I think) and it had a half column blurb about a Chinese movie called "Hero." It was the highest grossing Chinese film in China and 2nd highest grossing of any film released in China (Titanic was #1). In US dollars it did around 30 million. When released on DVD it did $300k. Ouch. The company that paid for the DVD distribution rights paid either 1 or 2 million. Ouch Ouch. Compare that to the US where it's not uncommon for DVD sales to meet, or exceed, box office revenue.

Apparently pirating is so rampent in China that few films ever get released offically on DVD because there is no profit in it.


Lethal

Yea, you'd be surprised to see that most, if not all, movies that are currently in theaters are on p2p networks. People go into the movie theater with a video camera and record the whole movie....

what are people coming to??.....

[absolut_mac]

They estimate Vietnam and China pirate 92% of their software!! Those kind of numbers are unreal!

It wouldn't surprise me if China produced 95% of the world's counterfeit goods.

I personally think that they shouldn't be allowed trade with any western country until...

a) they crack down on their rampant counterfeit industry, which costs both legitmate trademark holders and consumers an absolute fortune - and not to mention lost lives and serious injuries from fake Ford and GM brakes, car parts, plane parts etc etc

b) get the heck out of Tibet. They have absolutely NO right to be in Tibet and foist their style dictatorship on them

Of course neither of the above will happen anytime soon because most western countries are too corrupt and greedy to do anything about it, so instead we have the RIAA and MPAA chasing 80 year old grannies and 12 year old school kids - for possibly stealing pennies - instead of going after the real pirates and thieves who are stealing billions :mad:

And yes, this subject is a sore point with me!!!

[Abstract]

Yea, you'd be surprised to see that most, if not all, movies that are currently in theaters are on p2p networks. People go into the movie theater with a video camera and record the whole movie....

what are people coming to??.....

haha, video camera....that's funny. I know 4 people with a DVD copy of Shrek 2, each got theirs from their own source. :p

[stevehaslip]

i read a while ago that microsoft are trying to relaunch windows in the china area to try and cut down on the piracy:p, i don't think that anyone there cares though! they got crappy windows for free.

[iMeowbot]

What comes around goes around. Chales Dickens was wildly popular in America, but he never recieved royalties from here (http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/dickens/pva/pva75.html) and had financial difficulties throughout his life because of it. It wasn't until 1891 that we started signing treaties with other countries; we didn't sign onto the 1886 Berne treaty until 1998! During most of that period, China had much bigger problems to worry about, and it only started moving away from a centralized economy, what, 20 years ago?

At present, China has the copyright laws in place but lacks collective agencies like MPAA, ASCAP, etc. Just this month, the government there invited various experts from Europe to help put together a system that will be compatible with what the rest of the world is doing; right now, the responsibility falls onto individual copyright holders with predictable results. For a country that large to make those changes is going to take time; given the tardiness of most BSA members' home country, cutting them a little slack for now doesn't seem like such an awful thing.

[MongoTheGeek]

What comes around goes around. Chales Dickens was wildly popular in America, but he never recieved royalties from here (http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/dickens/pva/pva75.html) and had financial difficulties throughout his life because of it. It wasn't until 1891 that we started signing treaties with other countries; we didn't sign onto the 1886 Berne treaty until 1998! During most of that period, China had much bigger problems to worry about, and it only started moving away from a centralized economy, what, 20 years ago?

There was an interesting story about similar things in the frontpages of my copy of Ulysses. Because it was deemed obscene Joyce couldn't get the copyright on it. Because the legitimate publisher didn't have a copyright they didn't print. For several years the only edition available in the US was a PD bootleg.

At present, China has the copyright laws in place but lacks collective agencies like MPAA, ASCAP, etc. Just this month, the government there invited various experts from Europe to help put together a system that will be compatible with what the rest of the world is doing; right now, the responsibility falls onto individual copyright holders with predictable results. For a country that large to make those changes is going to take time; given the tardiness of most BSA members' home country, cutting them a little slack for now doesn't seem like such an awful thing.

Aren't copyrights antithetical to a socialist system?

[LethalWolfe]

Yea, you'd be surprised to see that most, if not all, movies that are currently in theaters are on p2p networks. People go into the movie theater with a video camera and record the whole movie....

what are people coming to??.....

The day Spider-man 2 came out a kid (teenager) here in SoCal got busted for using a camera to tape the screen. He got busted by employees at the theater using night vision goggles (provided by the studio) to scan the audience. I here there is also a $500 reward offered by the studios for catching people taping movies.


Lethal

[LethalWolfe]

It wouldn't surprise me if China produced 95% of the world's counterfeit goods.

I personally think that they shouldn't be allowed trade with any western country until...

a) they crack down on their rampant counterfeit industry, which costs both legitmate trademark holders and consumers an absolute fortune - and not to mention lost lives and serious injuries from fake Ford and GM brakes, car parts, plane parts etc etc

b) get the heck out of Tibet. They have absolutely NO right to be in Tibet and foist their style dictatorship on them

Of course neither of the above will happen anytime soon because most western countries are too corrupt and greedy to do anything about it, so instead we have the RIAA and MPAA chasing 80 year old grannies and 12 year old school kids - for possibly stealing pennies - instead of going after the real pirates and thieves who are stealing billions :mad:

And yes, this subject is a sore point with me!!!

Actually the entertainment industry spends lots of money and lots of time working w/the Federal government addressing the pirating problems over seas but there is only so much you can do when dealing w/a government that doesn't seem all that bothered by the rampent pirating. The reason for the near paranoira<sp?> here "at home" is because they have more leverage to stop pirating in the US and the most effective way to keep pirating under control is never to let it become out of control in the first place. Once that pirating genie is out of the bottle there is almost no putting it back.


Lethal

[musicpyrite]

The day Spider-man 2 came out a kid (teenager) here in SoCal got busted for using a camera to tape the screen. He got busted by employees at the theater using night vision goggles (provided by the studio) to scan the audience. I here there is also a $500 reward offered by the studios for catching people taping movies.


Lethal

I think I heard something about that in news.com or something. It's just stupid that someone would do something like that, and for no gain to them selfs! (even though it wrong) I can understand why he would do it for 100s of dollars, but he's doing it for free!

I surprised that M$ hasn't done anything very big in China, seeing only 8% of all Microsoft software is legal....

[Earendil]

Yea, you'd be surprised to see that most, if not all, movies that are currently in theaters are on p2p networks. People go into the movie theater with a video camera and record the whole movie....

what are people coming to??.....

...just another example of declining moral values....

What are people coming to?!
DVD and software pirating vs good ol' REAL killing murdering pirates.
Vs the days when Kings went to war because they had a bad day.
When you were probably born a indentured servant, surf, or slave.
When wives were expected to be buried dead or alive, when their husband died.
When people were nailed to crosses for their beliefs.
When you defeated an enemy you owned everything, including the woman.

And now, NOW we've gotten rid of all that petty stuff and moved on to the horrors of software pirating! The world is going to H*ll in a hand basket that's for sure.

Or is it that generally life on Earth has gotten a little bit better in places? Yet most of those "petty" things are still going on in the world, and all I really have to worry about is if I'm going to get robbed for my iPod. Oh yeah, and software pirating...

Tyler
Earendil

[Earendil]

Sorry, wasn't trying to aim my blunt sarcasm directly at the two individuals that I quoted.
I've just done some world traveling, and know a fair amount about history, and sometimes (and I'm prone to it too) we americans or [insert other wealthy country here] lose perspective on our world. For us to say that our morals are going down the drain because of software pirating just seems a little bit low and self centered when giant parts of this world are starving and dying and worrying about much larger and more important things than the morals of software pirating.

*cough* yeah I'll leave... maybe I'll even delete my posts...

Tyler
Earendil

[codycartoon]

What are people coming to?!
DVD and software pirating vs good ol' REAL killing murdering pirates.
Vs the days when Kings went to war because they had a bad day.
When you were probably born a indentured servant, surf, or slave.
When wives were expected to be buried dead or alive, when their husband died.
When people were nailed to crosses for their beliefs.
When you defeated an enemy you owned everything, including the woman.

And now, NOW we've gotten rid of all that petty stuff and moved on to the horrors of software pirating! The world is going to H*ll in a hand basket that's for sure.

Or is it that generally life on Earth has gotten a little bit better in places? Yet most of those "petty" things are still going on in the world, and all I really have to worry about is if I'm going to get robbed for my iPod. Oh yeah, and software pirating...

Tyler
Earendil

Damn straight.

If this was really affecting the software companies they could always stop producing software. If that happened the demand would jump and new and better software companies would form.

"Just another example of declining moral values"

This is actually just another example of how arrogantly high American's "moral" values are.'

I don't mean to attack but this is something that annoys me,

-cody

[agreenster]

While it's true that there are bigger problems in the world, its not fair to ridicule software companies that are struggling. Dont forget, there are people trying to make a living being a software developer, and if they do a good job and make a good piece of software, it isnt really fair for you to steal it, is it? FYI: Many software companies ARE struggling, yet still produce high quality stuff, that you take for granted everyday.

Saying, "oh, they should shut down their software company to create demand so better software companies will start up," is idiotic. Yeah, that will feed their kids. Maybe when Joe the software developer comes home and has to tell his wife they have to sell their house because the company folded, he should tell her, "Well, at least we arent getting nailed to a cross."

What annoys me is that whiny little kids who are stealing movies and music and software to install on their computer their daddy bought them (being a software designer) are posting on a public forum talking about morals. Killing is wrong, hunger needs to be eradicated, and people need to stop stealing other people's hard work. Its all the same. Yeah, we live in a better age than the dark ages, but it still doesnt make it right to steal.

I dont think the US has lost perspective, we are just normal people trying to make a living doing what we're good at. Sorry we arent out joining the peace corp and making a difference like you are obviously doing.

[LethalWolfe]

I surprised that M$ hasn't done anything very big in China, seeing only 8% of all Microsoft software is legal....

Given the current laws and government in China there is very little M$, or any company, can really do. For the most part the best they can do is catch pirated stuff when it enters the US before it gets distributed. Stopping the source of the problem, though, is up to the governments of countries where all this pirating takes place.

The gains are pretty base. They wanna "stick it to the man." They want break the rules. They want to brag to their friends that they did it and see how many people down load it. It's many of the same reasons people steal. They don't do it because they have to. They do it because they can.

The internet and P2P has given the answer to the always popular hypothetical<sp?> line of questioning, "If you'd never get caught. If no one would ever find out. What would you do?" Well. Now we know. Now we know what people do when no one is looking (or at least when they think no one is looking).


Earendil,
Keep yer posts. It is good that we keep things in perspective.
I think the talk here was on relative terms though. Although I think trust, respect, and protection of property are cornerstones for any prosporus<sp?>, civilized society. I'm not saying the world is going to hell in a hand basket because some 15yr old tried to tape Spider-Man 2 at the movie theater, but theft/piracy of IP (intellectual property) is a problem that should be addressed.


Lethal

[codycartoon]

Saying, "oh, they should shut down their software company to create demand so better software companies will start up," is idiotic. Yeah, that will feed their kids.


I didn't say that. I'm not sure where you got that quote. I said, "If this was really affecting the software companies they could always stop producing software. If that happened the demand would jump and new and better software companies would form."

I was saying that in this current world market for software, if you want to be a software developed you should take in to consideration the fact that pirating does exist.

You can whine about the morals all you want but fact is that the best software companies will continue to be successful even when "one third" of there software is being pirated.

It's an open market, the open software market is an incredibly difficult beast to tame.

The best software developers will find a way to make it work.


What annoys me is that whiny little kids who are stealing movies and music to install on their computer their daddy bought them are posting on a public forum talking about morals. Killing is wrong, hunger needs to be eradicated, and people need to stop stealing movies and software. Its all the same.


I'm not sure if this is directed at me or not, I am a "kid" as I am 16. But I do not steal movies and music, I don't even have a high speed connection, I have a 56k.

"their computer their daddy bought them" I saved two years mowing lawns and raking leaves to get me Powermac G4 Quicksilver, my parents did not help me with it at all.

I am a filmmaker, a musician, and an artist who devotes my time in to creating films, music, and visual arts. All of which is available for free on my website.

On my site I have a paypal donation button and a couple days ago I reached 10,000 hits and so far not a single person has donated a single dime to my art.

But whose fault is that? Is it the fault of the 10,000 people who have come to my site? No, it's my fault, this is an open market, it's up to me to figure out how to be successful with in it.

-cody

[Savage Henry]

If this was really affecting the software companies they could always stop producing software. If that happened the demand would jump and new and better software companies would form.


No.

Short-living, ill-conceived, in it for a quick buck, software companies will form; and that will pretty much describe their software.

[codycartoon]

No.

Short-living, ill-conceived, in it for a quick buck, software companies will form; and that will pretty much describe their software.

Why is that? Is that really what the market wants? I know that I wouldn't want software like that.

-cody

[GeeYouEye]

I still think something's a bit wrong when copyright infringement carries such a lower penalty than actual theft. I could go into my local Apple Store, steal a copy of UT2k4, and be sentenced to... 1000 hours of community service? A $250 fine?

[agreenster]

I didn't say that. I'm not sure where you got that quote.

I was paraphrasing. I think my point still stands. Pirating doest exist, and software companies know that, but it still doesnt make it right to steal.

fact is that the best software companies will continue to be successful even when "one third" of there software is being pirated.

I guess we'll see, huh?

It's an open market, the open software market is an incredibly difficult beast to tame.

Open is different than "free."

I still havent heard why its right to steal? All you're arguing is that stealing happens, and people should get used to it. I'm saying that it hurts workers, so go pay 15 bucks for a DVD at Wal-Mart and quit stealing stuff.

I'm not sure if this is directed at me or not

It wasnt.

I am a filmmaker, a musician, and an artist who devotes my time in to creating films, music, and visual arts. All of which is available for free on my website.

Congratulations.

So, when you're out on your own, and want to work in the film industry, will you get upset when you cant find a job, or get laid off because your studio isnt making any money? It could happen.

But whose fault is that? Is it the fault of the 10,000 people who have come to my site? No, it's my fault, this is an open market, it's up to me to figure out how to be successful with in it.

Correct. But the film/music industry ISNT open. Thats why you pay your 10 bucks at the box office.

[Peyote]

52% of statistics are made up


38% of statistics are wrong

[codycartoon]

I am not going to argue with you anymore agreenster, Of course it is wrong to steal, but if you are so worried about the software market and pirating, why don't you change it? Why don't you support all those poor workers who you are talking about?

You are just whining,

-cody

[Earendil]

While it's true that there are bigger problems in the world, its not fair to ridicule software companies that are struggling. Dont forget, there are people trying to make a living being a software developer, and if they do a good job and make a good piece of software, it isnt really fair for you to steal it, is it? FYI: Many software companies ARE struggling, yet still produce high quality stuff, that you take for granted everyday.

Missing my point all together. Good Job.
Often I see huge over exaggerated extreme remarks about how something is "decreasing moral values in America!" or in the world today, when if they want to talk about "decreasing moral values" they A: should be looking at History and B: not use something as mundane (in the grand scheme of things) as software piracy. This is not meant to paint piracy as a good thing (not sure where you got that idea) or even as not a big deal, as obviously it IS a big deal. But ones language needs to be put in perspective.

Saying, "oh, they should shut down their software company to create demand so better software companies will start up," is idiotic. Yeah, that will feed their kids.

I believe the author of that comment already pointed out you misquoted and misinterpreted what he wrote.

Maybe when Joe the software developer comes home and has to tell his wife they have to sell their house because the company folded, he should tell her, "Well, at least we arent getting nailed to a cross."

Yeah, I think he should, honestly. Lose your job you lose your job, but don't beat your self up over it, or spiral into depression. Keep your chin up, and realize that you are STILL better off than about half the people in the world, your kids are probably going to continue living and not only that, even with a jobless father will have a better chance at an education than a very large % of the world.
That doesn't mean losing you job doesn't suck, I for one know.

What annoys me is that whiny little kids who are stealing movies and music and software to install on their computer their daddy bought them (being a software designer) are posting on a public forum talking about morals. Killing is wrong, hunger needs to be eradicated, and people need to stop stealing other people's hard work. Its all the same. Yeah, we live in a better age than the dark ages, but it still doesnt make it right to steal.

Not a soul here said it was right to steal. Only that when talking about such a subject that phrases not be used, because it only shows that those talking aren't writing with a worldly perspective.

And about the "daddy's gifts to kids that steal software and whine about morals of hunger". Seeing as you already said you weren't talking to Cody, I'll assume you're talking to me. Are you trying to pick a fight?
I've worked F***ck*** da*ned hard for a year to buy my PB, to which I'm going to take to college and use for a comp sci major. I don't own a car, I don't own a stereo, and I'm 19. So back off your inflammatory comments, and before you make accusations, try and read their posts.

I don't think the US has lost perspective, we are just normal people trying to make a living doing what we're good at. Sorry we arent out joining the peace corp and making a difference like you are obviously doing.

If you are an American, have you ever left the country? ever been to a third world country? Ever spent time in a hotel that cost less than $10? Personally I can say I have, and after returning to America, and hear Americas talk about declining moral values over this and that, when people are dying over very simple things, makes me think that somewhere the perspective has gone eschew. YES, Pirating software is bad, to which I've never done, but software pirating is not cause for talk of the Apocalypse.

*sigh*

Tyler
Earendil

[iMeowbot]

There was an interesting story about similar things in the frontpages of my copy of Ulysses. Because it was deemed obscene Joyce couldn't get the copyright on it. Because the legitimate publisher didn't have a copyright they didn't print. For several years the only edition available in the US was a PD bootleg.
That was a little bit different. Proof copies were seized at the US border on the grounds that the book was pornography, so the book was only available here illiegally. The ruling that ultimately allowed its entry a decade later was hilarious, and Joyce had that included in the front of the official US editition along with his preface.

In the Dickens case, it wasn't stricty piracy. Foreign works were essentially in the public domain because copyright treaties weren't yet in place.

Aren't copyrights antithetical to a socialist system?
These days China isn't exactly a socialist country in the textbook sense. There are still political and social controls, but the economy has been increasingly liberalized over the past generation. Assuming that the current government keeps working in the same direction that Deng started, I suspect that the place won't be more more "socialist" than, say, France in a another generation's time. With the sheer size of the country, I just don't think it's realistic to expect things to change overnight (and apparently, neither do the people running the show).

[agreenster]

Why don't you support all those poor workers who you are talking about?

I do!

I buy all my software and buy all my own DVD's and CD's. :confused:

And Earendil, I wasn't talking about you either. I'm talking about people in general. Man, sensitive crowd. Rowr! Maybe a guilty conscience? ;) Hang loose Earendil- you arent the only one who's "seen the world." I've been to over 8 different countries, 2 of them 3rd world. I've slept on the floor of a shack only to wake up with flea bites all over with militant gunfire going off outside.

I'm entitled to my opinion as well. I never directed any ill will toward anyone here, just the notion of stealing itself, and the people who do it.

[LethalWolfe]

I think some people in here need to take a deep breath and chill out. This isn't the Politics forum ya know. ;) Please check the attitude and snide comments at the door. There is no reason for this topic of discussion (piracy) to spirial into a flamefest of sarcastic insults.

Yes there are much more dreadful and disturbing things that happen in this world than piracy and theft, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't spend some time discussing it. Earendil, your first posts did come off, whether you meant them to or not, as "holier-than-thou/STFU your life could be a lot worse/I had to walk up hill both ways in 20 feet of snow when I was a kid" sounding. I don't think anyone here deserves to be taken on a guilt trip because we are talking about this and not genocide.

I think there is a morale decay happening because piracy is becoming (and has become in many circles) socially acceptable. There is a generation of people growing up that thinks anything they find on-line is far game. Actually buying a game, or a CD or a piece of software or a DVD is slowly becoming the acqusition<sp?> method of last resort for a growing number of people.


Lethal

[Crikey]

It wouldn't surprise me if China produced 95% of the world's counterfeit goods.

I personally think that they shouldn't be allowed trade with any western country until...

a) they crack down on their rampant counterfeit industry, which costs both legitmate trademark holders and consumers an absolute fortune - and not to mention lost lives and serious injuries from fake Ford and GM brakes, car parts, plane parts etc etc

b) get the heck out of Tibet. They have absolutely NO right to be in Tibet and foist their style dictatorship on them

Of course neither of the above will happen anytime soon because most western countries are too corrupt and greedy to do anything about it, so instead we have the RIAA and MPAA chasing 80 year old grannies and 12 year old school kids - for possibly stealing pennies - instead of going after the real pirates and thieves who are stealing billions :mad:

And yes, this subject is a sore point with me!!!


Tibet is a big deal to me, too. Add to that the continued existence of slave-labor-like conditions in Chinese industry, and I try to avoid buying Chinese products when I can. Too bad so many Macs are made there.

But China is raking in the bucks, thanks to Wal*Mart and Costco and Dell (and Apple). And they are spending their newfound wealth on all the naval equipment and cruise missiles the former Soviet Union can manufacture, most of which is now aimed at Taiwan. I predict that George W. Bush's most lasting legacy will be spreading the U.S. military thin enough that China is emboldened to take back their wayward island province on the road to bigger things.


Crikey

[agreenster]

I think there is a morale decay happening because piracy is becoming (and has become in many circles) socially acceptable. There is a generation of people growing up that thinks anything they find on-line is far game. Actually buying a game, or a CD or a piece of software or a DVD is slowly becoming the acqusition<sp?> method of last resort for a growing number of people.

Also, it's just so easy to do nowadays: and anonymous. Its not like going to a store and ripping something off. You just click a button and bingo.

I know a kid (8th grade, so what is that, 13?) who steals SO much stuff online. Bitorrent might as well be his last name. Every time I ask him about it, he says, "If they're stupid enough to make it crackable..."

So I guess if he walked by a car with its windows down and keys in it, he would think its perfectly acceptable to drive off with it. Its sad that younger generations think its normal and okay to just steal stuff. Honor and respect have little place in our society anymore.

[LethalWolfe]

Also, it's just so easy to do nowadays: and anonymous. Its not like going to a store and ripping something off. You just click a button and bingo.

I know a kid (8th grade, so what is that, 13?) who steals SO much stuff online. Bitorrent might as well be his last name. Every time I ask him about it, he says, "If they're stupid enough to make it crackable..."

So I guess if he walked by a car with its windows down and keys in it, he would think its perfectly acceptable to drive off with it. Its sad that younger generations think its normal and okay to just steal stuff. Honor and respect have little place in our society anymore.

The car analogy is a bit off. It's more like he walks up to a locked car w/the windows up, slim-jim's the window and hot wires they car. "If they're stupid enough to make it able to be broken into..."

As society<sp?> becomes more technologically based the problem will only grow. Look at the problems/fears surrounding e-voting. Or the fact that there are now viri (plur of virus?) for cell phones. It's a double edged sword. It makes life easier for the honest as well as the dishonest. My friend just got a top-of-the-line Prius, and while it's cool as hell (in a very geeky way) it also makes me a bit afriad to give that much control over to a computer (and the Prius is basically a PC on wheels). What if, in a few more generations of cars, even more things are connected wirelessly and someone writes a virus that infects your car. At best it will be a PITA. At worst it could kill someone.

I have friends that haven't bought a CD in years (but of course they have huge music collections). And when we hang out it's like, "yeah, that's a great song/movie/game/program you should d/l it." or "I'll burn you a copy." Or people talk about downloading off [insert P2P proggie of choice] like it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. I have friends ranging from geeks to people that can barely turn a computer on so this is definetly in the main stream.


Lethal

[codycartoon]

My friend just got a top-of-the-line Prius, and while it's cool as hell (in a very geeky way) it also makes me a bit afriad to give that much control over to a computer (and the Prius is basically a PC on wheels).

I was driving home from the mountains back to Denver in a prius and it was like 11 at night. We were driving up a mountain and all of a sudden the prius computer started flashing "No Gas, No Gas". In like two seconds we were completely out of gas and stranded on the side of the road between two giant mountains. We called somebody and two hours later we had someone bring us 3 gallons of gas. We got back to Denver at around 3 o Clock.

true story.

-cody

[agreenster]

You know, I was thinking the other day, with all these geeks writing viruses, why dont they target terrorist websites and email and (if possible, Im sure someday) communication devices?

At least they would put their devious acts to good use. I guess it wouldnt be devious anymore.

Cody: You're lucky you had a phone (that worked between two mountains, no less)!

[Goliath]

Whilst I don't condone software piracy, I can understand why individuals do.

The average cost of a Hollywood blockbuster is $70-100 million and most of that cost is to secure A-list stars and directors. The greed of these people is why it costs so much to see a movie/buy a dvd. Same goes for record industry execs/Stars.

What has Madonna really done to deserve a $150+ personal fortune? Or Paul McCartney $1 Billion??

Hey that's even tame by Bill Gates' $20-30+ Billion fortune

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that capatilism is wrong but it purely because such individuals and corporations make so much money for their effort that the average joe doesn't see the harm in downloading stuff for free.

I'm aware that those at the bottom of these industries don't make outrageous fortunes but it those at the top whose greed perpetuates the problem.

[Chip NoVaMac]

Whilst I don't condone software piracy, I can understand why individuals do.

The average cost of a Hollywood blockbuster is $70-100 million and most of that cost is to secure A-list stars and directors. The greed of these people is why it costs so much to see a movie/buy a dvd. Same goes for record industry execs/Stars.

What has Madonna really done to deserve a $150+ personal fortune? Or Paul McCartney $1 Billion??

Hey that's even tame by Bill Gates' $20-30+ Billion fortune

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that capatilism is wrong but it purely because such individuals and corporations make so much money for their effort that the average joe doesn't see the harm in downloading stuff for free.

I'm aware that those at the bottom of these industries don't make outrageous fortunes but it those at the top whose greed perpetuates the problem.

I understand where you are coming from. Though your numbers maybe off. Yes, stars are paid un-godly sums. But I remember seeing something that said most movies don't make money.

We as consumers need to start to vote with our money. Stay away from theaters, and the studios my be forced to real in the costs. Avoid buying CD's and the "swapping" of digital music, and the record companies will have to adjust their business model. Heck, some may have to look at a factory Lincoln instead of that custom Hummer.

Software is another issue entirely. Not sure what true development costs are for a program like Office 2004 or Photoshop. Yet, if M$ was able to sell Office to the general public for $150, or Adobe sell Photoshop for $250; then I think that the piracy rate in the US may fall to 5 to 10 percent.

But the greed also goes deeper. Did not M$ stock go down recently after the news of 87% increase in profits from last last year? Only because it was less than what analysts hoped for?

[LethalWolfe]

Whilst I don't condone software piracy, I can understand why individuals do.

The average cost of a Hollywood blockbuster is $70-100 million and most of that cost is to secure A-list stars and directors. The greed of these people is why it costs so much to see a movie/buy a dvd. Same goes for record industry execs/Stars.

Post/Production + marketing for your average studio movie is about $100 mil. The rule of thumb (from what I've heard) is your marketing budget equals your post/production budget. So that's $50 mil to make your movie. +25mil for your stars and director is unreal. An a-list star will probably be the biggest paid single person, but they won't be the majority of a film's budget. And unless your director's last name is "Spielberg" or "Cameron" there is no way a director is going to comand an where near the $$$ an A-list actor would make. And, as

Super-star actors will continue to make super-star cash as long as enough people are willing to pay to see them. If it's not cost effective to pay superstar actor "X" 20mil per film then superstar actor "X" will no longer get 20mil per film. There are as many "one-hit wonder" actors as there are bands.

Who should we blame for the popularity of such crappy entertainment today? The studio's that manufacture it or the millions of people that pay for it?

What has Madonna really done to deserve a $150+ personal fortune? Or Paul McCartney $1 Billion??

Hey that's even tame by Bill Gates' $20-30+ Billion fortune

Become as successful as any of those people and you'll have the answer to your question.

As a friend of mine once told me, "You don't get what you deserve. You get what you negotiate."

I'm aware that those at the bottom of these industries don't make outrageous fortunes but it those at the top whose greed perpetuates the problem.

It's not even those at the bottom. It's those not at the very, very, very tippy, tippy, tippy up-most top. My numbers are a bit out of date but they still illistrate the point. There are 86,000 members of SAG (the screen actors guild). 1.5% of them make a living income from acting. That percentage is probably a bit lower now 'cause those numbers are before the crappy economy and the rise of the reality TV shows.


The philosophy of "they are sucessful therefor I can steal their projects" is just another hollow justfication to take something that you didn't pay for. Especially considering the fact that you are hurting the working middle-class "little people" significantly more than you are the stars or the studios.

Goliath,
Nothing personal against you, just argrueing against the mindset your brought up.

Chip,
You are correct, most movies don't make a profit. So the profitable films also have to cover the costs of the non-profitable ones. And I read in a issue of PC Gamer (or something) a few months ago that the average cost of a video game (from begining concept to the store shelves) is $10mil.


Lethal

[Nermal]

They estimate Vietnam and China pirate 92% of their software!! Those kind of numbers are unreal!

That doesn't surprise me. I've been to Indonesia, you can walk down any street and there are stalls full of pirated software. Piracy is so rampant there that the licenced stuff is really cheap (otherwise they wouldn't sell a single copy). For example, licenced movies are around US$5 each (compared to pirated ones at about $1 each).

Five years ago, when DVDs were new, none of the movie studios wanted to produce region 4 DVDs due to the high piracy rates we have over here. So what happened? Everyone bought multi-region players, and the local stores all carried region 1 movies. Needless to say, the movie studios changed their minds, and now virtually all DVDs sold here are region 4.

To this day, all players sold in NZ can play all regions out of the box (or come with instructions to 'hack' them). Region locking is illegal (the law says that people have a right to import goods, etc).

[MongoTheGeek]

To this day, all players sold in NZ can play all regions out of the box (or come with instructions to 'hack' them). Region locking is illegal (the law says that people have a right to import goods, etc).

Sweet.

I also think that certain things shouldn't be allowed. I think there should be no copyright on copy-protected materials. The logic behind this is that the US Constitution allows for the protection of "useful" arts and sciences. If you can't get at the information then its not really useful is it? A CD of music is worth $15. If I can't listen to it or play it then it its worth 15 cents as a coaster.

[takao]

i can understand 'supporting' for the software industry...

but the music industry ? what the music industry has done here(dominated by warner, universal,sony,BGM and anothero ne i have forgotten) in the german/swiss/austrian market is beyond imagination.. local artists (about 50.000 were under contract) have gotten their payments cut 40%..if they don't take this they have to sue them or when they protest to much they get fired
and huge percentages of artists getting fired without reason ...
getting a new contract with singing in german is nearly impossible
on the other side cd prices on the rise and 9 out of 10 majorlabel cds are already copy protected
and where does the money go ? one wicked expensive popstar-show after another one / refusing to pay taxes
completly made up charts with ignoring music that doesn't fit their businessplan etc etc.

i'm not going to support completly customer and _worker_ ignoring business practice

[iMook]

I find it rather amusing that there is such apparent outrage over issues like Tibet and Chinese media pirating.

On the subject of Tibet: Do you really care? You can vent all you want, but have you donated money to an organization aiding Tibet in its quest for sovereignty? Can you even NAME such an organization? The life that you lead, does it really do anything to help legislators say "Hey, our voters are saying this, let's try to raise all forms of heck and free Tibet"? I'm sorry if I come off a tad harsh, but it really bothers me when a crowd of people are all talk and no action. Me? I don't speak out against these things, China can keep Tibet for all I care. Then again, I'm a Chinese-American, so maybe some bias may be had in that.
Question 2:Why do you care? The United States as a nation apparently doesn't. We're too busy bombing dissenters and exploiting foreign countries. Oh wait, let me rephrase: "Waging a war against evil and providing jobs."

Like those with opposing views, American anti-China sentiment (yes, that's all it is: sentiment) is a rather touchy issue for me. First and foremost, it may just be that I'm an unnaturally perceptive person, but I find it ironic that, even with such outraged individuals in the great US of A, the United States still sees China as a goldmine of investment opportunity. If we really cared more about about human rights issues, about DEMOCRACY even, than the dollar, why are we pouring money into a nation internationally recognized as Communist? A nation who harshly persecutes a purportedly-benign yoga group: the Falun Gong?
Then again, why would we need to really care if we can clear our consciences just by saying "Hey, I'm talking about it, and I said 'I don't like this.' That's all I'm going to do, because hey, a Friends rerun is on in 5 minutes."

Why is pirating so rampant in China? Not because some 15-year-old kid decided that he was gonna get street cred for filming "Fahrenheit 9/11" in the theatre and telling the world. No, because it's actually profitable there. Go to China, and go buy some bootleg DVDs. Look at the build quality of the packaging. Look at the picture quality. Look at the custom DVD menu system. (albeit with typos) Virtually all movie bootlegs released more than two days after the American theatre debut are DVD-quality, not made by Handycam-toting social rebels. In China, bootlegs are not made, they are manufactured.

If you want to talk about markets, this is the epitome of the free market. In China, there are bootlegs because people buy bootlegs. The currency conversion rate is almost exactly 8 yuan/US$1. Socially, in terms of CPI and income (forgot the term for this) the conversion rate is actually 1 yuan/US$1 or less. Some wonder why bootlegging is so BIG in China. Think about it: Would you buy iLife for $600? Would you buy Tiger for $1000?
Forgot the Aesop fables. Forget good ol' family values. This is pure supply and demand.

If there was such a large bootleg industry in the US (hypothetically) I doubt that many of you would eschew a $1 bootleg of the same picture quality, with the same features, and with nice packaging for the $30 (allow for high prices due to piracy) "official" DVD. Would you really? I guarantee that most Americans won't. Why? It's all about the green.