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MacRumors
Nov 5, 2009, 06:11 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/iphone/2009/11/05/why-an-rfid-enabled-iphone/)

Multiple reports have come in that Apple is researching (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/11/05/apple-experimenting-with-rfid-enabled-iphone-prototypes/) RFID (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/07/09/new-apple-iphone-patent-applications-surface-object-and-facial-recognition-messaging-voice-modulation/) integration (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/07/02/haptic-feedback-fingerprint-identification-and-rfid-tag-readers-in-future-iphones/) into the iPhone, but some may still be wondering what such functionality would bring to the table for consumers.

Firstly, we should note that RFID is a catch-all term that describes a vast array of technologies and standards. RFID tags can be relatively large and battery-powered, such as ones used in toll collection, to small "passive" tags that can be embedded into credit cards, drivers licenses (called "Enhanced Drivers Licenses" in the U.S.), passports, or stuck onto a piece of merchandise.

Currently, cell-phone usage of RFID technology is centered around Near Field Communication (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_Field_Communication) (NFC). NFC has three main usage scenarios: a phone acting as an RFID tag; a phone acting as an RFID reader; and peer to peer communication (P2P).

In RFID tag mode, a phone could be used as a payment device (like a credit card), an identity card, or act as a car key. In RFID reader mode the phone would be able to interact with tags in its vicinity. This article and video (http://www.nearfield.org/2009/04/iphone-rfid-nfc) demonstrates how an iPhone with RFID could use physical objects to control media playback. And in P2P mode, Bluetooth pairing can be streamlined.

These are just a few ways that RFID could be used in an iPhone. When or if it becomes a reality isn't clear, but hopefully now you have a better idea of what the potential is for Apple's research in this area.

Article Link: Why an RFID-enabled iPhone? (http://www.macrumors.com/iphone/2009/11/05/why-an-rfid-enabled-iphone/)



2000m
Nov 5, 2009, 06:38 PM
at&t will know what your doing at all times:eek:

stagi
Nov 5, 2009, 06:39 PM
I think it would be cool to use your phone for payments and some of these other functions. Excited to see what the next version will bring.

MacFly123
Nov 5, 2009, 06:46 PM
at&t will know what your doing at all times:eek:

Ya! So much for a chip in your body, they will have them in your mobile device which you will always have! :eek:

This could have lots of cool uses though, and I was hoping a while ago that the iPhone would debut this technology on a large platform.

coolbreeze
Nov 5, 2009, 06:56 PM
I think it would be cool to use your phone for payments and some of these other functions. Excited to see what the next version will bring.

This. @ any store, @ a Coke machine, @ the movies.

Just hold your iPhone up to the sensor. Possibly enter a PIN to validate.

Done.

I reach for my phone at the same time I reach for my wallet. Never leave home without it.

Perfect payment tool.

Blinkwing
Nov 5, 2009, 07:14 PM
Hong Kong, Japan & a few other countries have been using technology like this for a while. Hopefully it'll start being mainstream in Western countries soon.

Hong Kong uses a SMART type card for everything, transport, vending machines, etc etc.

Japan uses their mobile phones, AFAIK :P

ctucci
Nov 5, 2009, 07:24 PM
If it's a reader, I can see this working in concert with the new Easy Pay apple point of sale.

I could walk through a store, hit "read" and conduct inventory instantly.

Gimme.

ob81
Nov 5, 2009, 07:36 PM
Hong Kong, Japan & a few other countries have been using technology like this for a while. Hopefully it'll start being mainstream in Western countries soon.

Hong Kong uses a SMART type card for everything, transport, vending machines, etc etc.

Japan uses their mobile phones, AFAIK :P

Yeah, it is so wide spread in Japan that you can use it at little corner shops these days. Great technology.

libertyforall
Nov 5, 2009, 10:42 PM
No spy chips, thank you.

http://spychips.com

BuddyTronic
Nov 5, 2009, 10:51 PM
Why RFID?

Vending Machines

Gas Pumps

Door locks and passage locks

Home security system thing - let's you know who came to your door etc.

Subway Train Token

Movie Tickets

Digital "tickets" for anything.

Museum audio program guide thingies.

Micro Payment systems

Demographic plotting of people passing a turnstile

I hope people try to see beyond the "evil Gubment" spy stuff.

macduke
Nov 5, 2009, 11:13 PM
LOL @ Chuck Norris kicking an oncoming car in the face. Classic.

Like I mentioned in the first post on this possibility earlier today, I hope they implement this in a way that I can find things. Like tagging my keys or books. I'm always losing crap.

spillproof
Nov 5, 2009, 11:51 PM
I watched a discovery channel show a few years ago where I think Spain was selling phones with a chip in them to act as a bus pass.

I would really like to see something like the OP become main stream. I like the MasterCard® PayPass™ idea but you still need to take out a card and deal with your wallet; but if it was as easy as waving a phone and a pin code, I'd love it.

robinp
Nov 6, 2009, 01:25 AM
My old flatmate was invited by O2 to take part in a trial of this technology in a nokia phone here in london. The phone had the ability to be an Oyster card (pay for public transport), an instant pay barclay card and to read a series of tags which he was given. Not sure what they were really useful for to be honest, but I guess you could set it up to change settings depending on location.

I think the trial was a success, so it doesn't surprise me that this would be incorporated in the iPhone.

Rychiar
Nov 6, 2009, 01:30 AM
i had that chuck action figure once upon a time! LOL

jmadlena
Nov 6, 2009, 01:44 AM
No spy chips, thank you.

http://spychips.com

So you believe that by Apple putting an RFID tag reader in the next generation iPhone it will help enable the US government to spy on you?

According to those scary sites you posted, they're already doing this with ease. Basically, if the US government wants to spy on you, it probably can. The only way to stop it would be to move out to the middle of nowhere: http://www.theonion.com/content/video/google_opt_out_feature_lets_users

iphones4evry1
Nov 6, 2009, 02:01 AM
I could see it being beneficial in some cases, such as being used as an access key to identify you or to identify you as the buyer of E-tickets (but at the same time, it would allow retailers to identify you when you walk in the door; which would allow advertising conglomerates to collect even more data on you. Wait until individual aisles have readers - "Dave walked down the toothpaste aisle at Target on Saturday, November 3, at 5:13pm. On the 4th, he walked down the condom aisle at CVS at 9:59pm." :eek: :eek: :eek:

(Seriously Folks, this RFID thing Apple is plotting might not be the best idea.
Apple will probably try to charge retailers and advertising companies, such as
Doubleclick (which will become like the credit bureaus of consumer data), but
it will make George Orwell's 1984 one step closer)

retroneo
Nov 6, 2009, 03:25 AM
I like the MasterCard® PayPass™ idea but you still need to take out a card and deal with your wallet

PayPass is an implementation of NFC. You don't need to take it out of your wallet.

In fact I have four NFC cards in my wallet and the all work without taking them out. The reader seems to know which one to use (transport, car sharing, door access and paypass)

NFC is ISO 14443

eastercat
Nov 6, 2009, 03:32 AM
I hope people try to see beyond the "evil Gubment" spy stuff.
While I'm worried about the government, I'm more concerned about the corporations who would use my information.
Considering how corporations screwed up when it came to administering home loans, you think they'll do any better with your private information?

Talk about a bad idea.

Full of Win
Nov 6, 2009, 05:09 AM
I'm waiting for the Mark of the Beast = RFID comments to begin.

Serious, there are several segments of the population out there that have objections to this type of technology. I don't know if Apple cares though.

Frosties
Nov 6, 2009, 05:13 AM
Say no to rfid! We already use phones to pay for tickets on parking spaces, trains, buses and so on. There is no need to add more identity to these transactions. It is already in use and works just fine without rfid.

Small White Car
Nov 6, 2009, 05:33 AM
at&t will know what your doing at all times:eek:

While I'm worried about the government, I'm more concerned about the corporations who would use my information.
Considering how corporations screwed up when it came to administering home loans, you think they'll do any better with your private information?

Talk about a bad idea.

So the fact that AT&T can currently know everything about you from miles away is ok, but if they add a chip that works for 30 or 40 feet...that's a problem?

yetanotherdave
Nov 6, 2009, 05:37 AM
You already use cards, which are trackable, stop whining, give us the option for ultra convenience, They'll still let you pay in cash if you choose!

Frosties
Nov 6, 2009, 05:38 AM
So the fact that AT&T can currently know everything about you from miles away is ok, but if they add a chip that works for 30 or 40 feet...that's a problem?

From 1 party to anyone and everyone, your neighbor, elevator, cash register. Anyone with ability to scan rfid know you. That is like shouting out who, what you are all the time 24/7. That is just information pollution.

pesc
Nov 6, 2009, 05:46 AM
You have a RFID tag in some item you wear. Like your belt.

You set the phone to automatically disable if it can't see your tag. If you lose it or it is stolen, it will automatically lock up. And unlock when you come back. Seamlessly.

The Phazer
Nov 6, 2009, 05:50 AM
It'd be great news to have an Oyster card in the next iPhone...

Phazer

Small White Car
Nov 6, 2009, 05:50 AM
That is like shouting out who, what you are all the time 24/7.


Oh really?

The sample I see here shows a way to make a phone's games or videos interact with toys.

Another example I've read (subway farecard) would tell people that I'm subway rider 25879346 or something. I've also read about using it as a credit card, which would require a PIN number to use. Anyone can currently snap a photo of you handing a card to a cashier, so it's no different from that.

None of these are shouting out anything about who I am. If you're critisizing something else, you'll have to actually tell me what you're talking about since it hasn't been mentioned here yet.

Frosties
Nov 6, 2009, 06:10 AM
The sample I see here shows a way to make a phone's games or videos interact with toys.


You already have a standard for this, connecting any media device in a network. Your phone, your camera, media device to your tv, game console, internet and the cloud etc. Microsoft and almost every leading manufacturer is already shipping and using devices or soon to release with this standard. Apple is just trying to not follow standard and over complicate for us users. Bottom line: This is not a good idea. It is inventing something that is already out as a standard in the industry.

Small White Car
Nov 6, 2009, 06:28 AM
You already have a standard for this, connecting any media device in a network.

There is no way to do what is being shown in this video with wifi or bluetooth. (Note that the toys do not have a power source.)

Full of Win
Nov 6, 2009, 06:55 AM
You already use cards, which are trackable, stop whining, give us the option for ultra convenience, They'll still let you pay in cash if you choose!

You have the option to allow another to see/use your card, whereas RFID are wireless and do not give you the same protection.

backdraft
Nov 6, 2009, 07:07 AM
It's a simple way to increase the iPhones attack surface and introduce more vulnerabilities that enable information to be stolen.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/08/08/insecure_black_hat_badges/

ipoppy
Nov 6, 2009, 07:09 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/iphone/2009/11/05/why-an-rfid-enabled-iphone/)

Multiple reports have come in that Apple is researching (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/11/05/apple-experimenting-with-rfid-enabled-iphone-prototypes/) RFID (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/07/09/new-apple-iphone-patent-applications-surface-object-and-facial-recognition-messaging-voice-modulation/) integration (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/07/02/haptic-feedback-fingerprint-identification-and-rfid-tag-readers-in-future-iphones/) into the iPhone, but some may still be wondering what such functionality would bring to the table for consumers.

Firstly, we should note that RFID is a catch-all term that describes a vast array of technologies and standards. RFID tags can be relatively large and battery-powered, such as ones used in toll collection, to small "passive" tags that can be embedded into credit cards, drivers licenses (called "Enhanced Drivers Licenses" in the U.S.), passports, or stuck onto a piece of merchandise.

Currently, cell-phone usage of RFID technology is centered around Near Field Communication (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_Field_Communication) (NFC). NFC has three main usage scenarios: a phone acting as an RFID tag; a phone acting as an RFID reader; and peer to peer communication (P2P).

In RFID tag mode, a phone could be used as a payment device (like a credit card), an identity card, or act as a car key. In RFID reader mode the phone would be able to interact with tags in its vicinity. This article and video (http://www.nearfield.org/2009/04/iphone-rfid-nfc) demonstrates how an iPhone with RFID could use physical objects to control media playback. And in P2P mode, Bluetooth pairing can be streamlined.

These are just a few ways that RFID could be used in an iPhone. When or if it becomes a reality isn't clear, but hopefully now you have a better idea of what the potential is for Apple's research in this area.

Article Link: Why an RFID-enabled iPhone? (http://www.macrumors.com/iphone/2009/11/05/why-an-rfid-enabled-iphone/)

I must say its a great respond from Macrumors team. Many people, including me:D, where wondering what that technology is about. Now I am getting picture.
I think RFID is step forward and good approach from Apple. I understand people's distrust for this technology but if its done properly it can be timesaver in daily tasks.

Soliber
Nov 6, 2009, 07:23 AM
Come to think of it, I read that one of the major irks the Japanese have with the iPhone is the fact that they can't make payments with it. Apparently they all use their cellphones over there to conduct payments, though I don't really know how the technology works.
Maybe Apple is looking to enhance the desirability of the iPhone in more gadget-advanced countries like Japan and South-Korea.
Just a thought *-)
My first post here btw ^^

JustBobPro
Nov 6, 2009, 08:14 AM
We use RFID chips in ID card for public transportation here in the Netherlands. I can't say it's the most efficient system but I can see the potential of having one set up in a device you carry with you all the time like an iPhone.

edventure
Nov 6, 2009, 08:25 AM
What my RFID enabled phone will tell me....

I'm sorry Dave, I cannot authorize the purchase of those cookies because the cholesterol content is in direct conflict with the Crestor you have been prescribed - by the way -

did you know that (insert any paid advertiser here) CVS Pharmacy can save you money by switching you to an approved generic?

The fat content also concerns me because the last pair of pants you bought was one inch greater in the waist than your previous purchase.

May i recommend the (insert any paid promotional product here) Cheerios.

RichTF
Nov 6, 2009, 09:12 AM
We use RFID chips in ID card for public transportation here in the Netherlands. I can't say it's the most efficient system but I can see the potential of having one set up in a device you carry with you all the time like an iPhone.
Interesting to hear you say that -- I use the Oyster RFID card for public transport here in London, and it's incredibly efficient. Compared to paper tickets, it's faster to use, faster to pay for, and much more durable.

Would be great to have this built into my iPhone...

EDIT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oyster_card#Usage_statistics to see just how massively popular RFID technology is here. Only 4% of Tube users use cash, the rest use RFID for their journeys!

NinjaHERO
Nov 6, 2009, 09:21 AM
If my Iphone can make Chuck Norris kick a car in the face, I will pay twice as much.:D

longofest
Nov 6, 2009, 09:46 AM
As I tried to alude to in the article, RFID is incredibly prevalent, though it also encompasses a lot of different technologies.

For instance, Active UHF RFID (Ultra High Frequency... around 900 MHz) RFID is used in toll-paying systems like EZ-Pass in the U.S. Since these tags have batteries to drive them, they have a limited lifespan, however they can be read reliably at high speeds (30 mph+) at 30 ft.

Passive UHF RFID, also known as "EPC Gen2" or ISO 18000-6c is used in a ton of applications: Walmart's supply chain, enhanced drivers licenses and some other travel documents (excluding passport booklets). These kind of tags, depending on the antenna and environment, can be read in typical conditions from 15 - 30 ft away, but speeds above 15-20 mph is problematic for getting reliable reads. I worked most with these cards in my last job under contract with the US Government.

Passive HF RFID (High Frequency... around 12 MHz) RFID is used in credit cards, mass transit ID cards, and many access control badges. They have a very limited reliable read range of only a few centimeters. I've been working more and more with these recently in my current job with a security company.

The "Near Field Communication" (NFC) that the article talks about is talking about a version of HF RFID that is both passive and active.

longofest
Nov 6, 2009, 09:49 AM
So the fact that AT&T can currently know everything about you from miles away is ok, but if they add a chip that works for 30 or 40 feet...that's a problem?

I like your point, but just to emphasize even further... The RFID that we're likely to see in use in an iPhone wouldn't have that far of a useful range. We'd be talking 2 feet max. See previous post.

arkitect
Nov 6, 2009, 09:50 AM
Everytime I see this thread I read Apple's working on an RDF iPhone… and I think to myself… and that's new? ;)

nkawtg72
Nov 6, 2009, 10:27 AM
i can't believe all the paranoia on this thread.

first of all, if it is simply an RFID Reader, then it doesn't broadcast crap about you. it senses an RFID Tag in proximity to your reader and reads the tag. software on the device then utilizes that tags info for some purpose.

secondly, if there is a tag in the device (iphone/ipod) then you'd have to be in proximity of a reader for it to be sensed and read. i would imagine that for privacy reasons a tag could be disabled dynamically by the user. or maybe even the device alerts the user that a reader is attempting to read its RFID and asks how the user would like to handle the situation.

lastly, anyone who is even remotely paranoid about such a technology coming to the iPhone/iPod had better already be on a cash basis, own no cell phone, not have internet access in their home or use it anywhere else, have no bank accounts whatsoever, not be a member of any clubs or enrolled in school, or be employed anywhere.

believe me, 99% of people are already engaging in enough activities that if big brother or big business wanted to know something about you, they'd have no problem finding it.

mr.fancypants
Nov 6, 2009, 10:57 AM
Seems reasonable that a big reason to do this is so that Apple Store employees can scan items with their new iPhone checkout systems... right?

wolfshades
Nov 6, 2009, 11:17 AM
Big evil retail conglomerate:

*ahem* Marco....


Equally evil RFID-enabled iPhone in my pocket:

OMG!!! Freaking POLO!!!!! RIGHT OVER HERE!!!!

nagromme
Nov 6, 2009, 12:34 PM
The iPhone has a power source, unlike a typical card or keyfob, so I would think it could implement active RFID instead of passive.

In other words, have it ONLY functional when powered on, unlike the tag in an RFID card. Then it can be optional and up to the user—best of both worlds. Convenience AND privacy. I could accept a tiny battery drain for that flexibility.

And if you’re paranoid about whether it REALLY is turned off when it says, then you may as well be paranoid about whether there already IS a chip in your iPhone (and your shoes and your coffee) that they’re not telling you about :)

(I’d be interested to know whether active RFID could do what nkawtg72 suggested above: alert you when the tag is read. Can it know that a read has taken place or is it just a steady broadcast in one direction? A beep/vibrate would be a nice step up from what a simple card can do.)

zombitronic
Nov 6, 2009, 12:35 PM
That is like shouting out who, what you are all the time 24/7. That is just information pollution.

Yet, people still use Twitter all the time.

djdole
Nov 6, 2009, 02:09 PM
My bet is on the RFID being used as a payment device.
Especially since :apple: stores are already good about automating the purchase process (with emailed reciepts and the like), and with Apple recently changing their in-store handheld payment devices, with the fact that Apple currently maintains a record of your payment methods. So associating your previous payment/billing method with the rfid in your phone would allow them to easily scan you previously-purchased phone, confirm against your ID then have you on your way with your purchase.
Such as when I was in to purchase my 1st-gen iPhone, I used a credit card. Then when I upgraded to 3GS they just asked if I wanted to use the same card. It kinda shocked me that they were keeping that info, but it was quite convenient. But the only reason they were able to use my previous method was because they already knew it was me (because I was upgrading my phone). Other visits where I was just buying an accessory, I still had to whip-out my card and go through the whole process.
If they have the RFID in the phone, then they could possibly use this for any/all other purchases (not just new iPhones).
AND it would also allow them to identify a phone's owner if the phone were lost or stolen and returned to their store. As well as ensure that
Additionally, they could also use it to be sure that the phone returned to them is the SAME phone that was sold, so there wouldn't be any consumer fraud.
This would mean a decrease in profit-loss, which would eventually be passed on to consumers. :-)

djdole
Nov 6, 2009, 02:44 PM
From 1 party to anyone and everyone, your neighbor, elevator, cash register. Anyone with ability to scan rfid know you. That is like shouting out who, what you are all the time 24/7. That is just information pollution.

This is NOTHING NEW.
Many of your credit cards already do this. Passports and enhanced licenses (as the post points out, if you bothered to read it) already do this.
Why get your panties in a bunch just because Apple may be considering doing the same?

Besides, your use of the term 'information pollution' is quite inaccurate and inappropriate.
Nothing is being polluted. When you walk by an area your information isn't still there an hour later.
Additionally, the VAST MAJORITY of RFID devices are PASSIVE, meaning they don't actively transmit ANY information but must be activated by a nearby reader to even be capable of being read.
Think of it like as if you were just walking down the street. You know your name, but you're not telling anyone. The only way anyone can get that info is if they ask you your name (granted in this scenario you MUST tell them if asked) but you're not just repeating it aloud ALL THE TIME.

Do you also consider it information pollution when every time ANYONE (including yourself) speak? O_o


All tin-foil hats and irrational fears of 'big brother' are unnecessary, and a waste of your valuable time. ;-)

Winni
Nov 6, 2009, 03:33 PM
Orwell's nightmare. Powered by Apple.

bacaramac
Nov 6, 2009, 05:19 PM
This would be pretty cool idea. When you arrive at the Zoo, Museum, etc you connect to their wi-fi network. Then at each exhibit they have the RFID thing in place and you just put your phone up to the RFID reader and your phone loads a quick video on the Tiger, Lions, etc.

Just a thought.

Edit: I think the RFID devices have to be basically be touching to actually do anything, I don't think walking through turn style would pick it up. I guess this level of sensitivity is adjustable, but my AMEX card has to actually touch and remain on the reader for few seconds to actually read the card.

mook
Nov 7, 2009, 11:38 AM
I think the RFID devices have to be basically be touching to actually do anything, I don't think walking through turn style would pick it up. I guess this level of sensitivity is adjustable, but my AMEX card has to actually touch and remain on the reader for few seconds to actually read the card.

You're right. There's a visualisation of the dimensions of RFID 'readable volumes' here:
http://www.nearfield.org/2009/10/immaterials-the-ghost-in-the-field

tempusfugit
Nov 7, 2009, 11:52 AM
imagine being able to walk around a store and scan items with your iphone for the company's information about the product. That's the kind of stuff we're gonna see in the not-so-distant future imo.

nagromme
Nov 7, 2009, 05:20 PM
Orwell's nightmare. Powered by Apple.

You should have worried more when cell phones got GPS for emergency response service. GPS allows real tracking, and phones allow long-range data transmission, all tied to your phone account, address and payment info.

In the face of that, how does adding a radio tag (as already used for lots of things) that communicates a few inches make a phone so much scarier?

VulchR
Nov 7, 2009, 06:41 PM
As if security concerns weren't bad enough if your phone gets stolen.., If this is used to pay automatically for services and merchandise, what's to prevent a thief from running up a huge balance by using a stolen iPhone's RFID? Here in the UK we have to enter a PIN when using a credit card, and that seems to deter thieves. However, there are some places that require only a signature for some bank cards - my ex's purse was stolen in London and within the thirty minutes it took to report this to the bank 300 GBR pounds were charged to her bank card. Using a mobile phone for payment is not new - it's just a stupid idea.

wolfshades
Nov 8, 2009, 09:05 AM
As if security concerns weren't bad enough if your phone gets stolen.., If this is used to pay automatically for services and merchandise, what's to prevent a thief from running up a huge balance by using a stolen iPhone's RFID? Here in the UK we have to enter a PIN when using a credit card, and that seems to deter thieves. However, there are some places that require only a signature for some bank cards - my ex's purse was stolen in London and within the thirty minutes it took to report this to the bank 300 GBR pounds were charged to her bank card. Using a mobile phone for payment is not new - it's just a stupid idea.

Your concerns are understood. My question is: how does this differ from having your wallet or credit card stolen? Amazing that we'll secure our computers up tightly to prevent online security breaches but we'll let the sketchy-looking waiter walk away with our credit card in the restaurant.....

wackymacky
Nov 8, 2009, 02:03 PM
No spy chips, thank you.

http://spychips.com


Umm. Doesn't my cellphone already have a unique identify number that it comuncates with my carrier while it is switched on and tells them where I am within the cell network. (And with the GPS chip I can be pin-pointed withing a couple of meters).

Ummm... I wonder..... Does Apple track when ever a iPhone onwer enters a Apple Store, Or Wallmart? They have the technology.

kironin
Nov 8, 2009, 02:56 PM
No spy chips, thank you.

http://spychips.com


I envision a market for some sort of faraday cage in an iPhone carrying case though grounding it maybe a challenge.

After-seller small business opportunity, become a chip remover or disabler perhaps.

wackymacky
Nov 8, 2009, 05:13 PM
imagine being able to walk around a store and scan items with your iphone for the company's information about the product. That's the kind of stuff we're gonna see in the not-so-distant future imo.


Ummm. What about just snapping the barcode or data-matrix stamp on the product and looking it up, like you can already do?

Seems like a lot of un-necessary fuss.

akbc
Nov 8, 2009, 06:40 PM
Here in South Korea, all the RFID equipped phones are so useful.
I use it as a metropass, credit card, debit card AND i can ride taxi's with them and pay with it, too.
Heck, I don't even have to carry my bank card because most of the bank machines are RFID equipped too.

I am using iPhone 3GS here, but I miss my old phone that could do all that.
And if iPhone can do that, it'd be great for all the east asian countries that have RFID stuff in their everyday life; like Japan, Hong Kong/China and such.

zacman
Nov 9, 2009, 06:47 AM
RFID is insecure. The british RFID passports have been cracked within less than 48 hours, the German test ones in less than a day. I wouldn't trust RFID for any important and sensible information like payment services. It's fine for stuff like tracking packages or my skiing card - but that's it.

VulchR
Nov 9, 2009, 08:13 AM
Your concerns are understood. My question is: how does this differ from having your wallet or credit card stolen? Amazing that we'll secure our computers up tightly to prevent online security breaches but we'll let the sketchy-looking waiter walk away with our credit card in the restaurant.....

OK - I admit that I can a certain tendency toward paranoia :o, but...

With respect to credit cards, most eating places where I am in the UK bring a machine to the table rather than taking the card away. A PIN is required. Also, one can erase or cover the 3-digit number on the back so that you reduce the chances of your stolen card being used online. My worry is that the RFID will be so automatic ('convenient') that you'll be able to wave your phone to purchase goods or services, without any other conformation of your identity. And it is true that security so far on RFID is far from perfect: indeed, one can now purchase shielded passport covers that reduce the chance of criminal access to sensitive passport information via RFID .

EDIT: Also, didn't O2 trial something called 'Wallet' that allowed a mobile phone to be used to buy things? I wonder how the trial turned out...

rdowns
Nov 9, 2009, 08:16 AM
RFID is insecure. The british RFID passports have been cracked within less than 48 hours, the German test ones in less than a day. I wouldn't trust RFID for any important and sensible information like payment services. It's fine for stuff like tracking packages or my skiing card - but that's it.


If it is so insecure, why haven't we heard of all the peoplebeing ripped off where it's used quite extensively?

wolfshades
Nov 9, 2009, 10:07 AM
OK - I admit that I can a certain tendency toward paranoia :o, but...

With respect to credit cards, most eating places where I am in the UK bring a machine to the table rather than taking the card away. A PIN is required. Also, one can erase or cover the 3-digit number on the back so that you reduce the chances of your stolen card being used online. My worry is that the RFID will be so automatic ('convenient') that you'll be able to wave your phone to purchase goods or services, without any other conformation of your identity. And it is true that security so far on RFID is far from perfect: indeed, one can now purchase shielded passport covers that reduce the chance of criminal access to sensitive passport information via RFID .

EDIT: Also, didn't O2 trial something called 'Wallet' that allowed a mobile phone to be used to buy things? I wonder how the trial turned out...


Evidently, sanity prevails in the U.K. Here in Canada - not so much. Since very few places bring the credit card machine to the table, (and since I have an allergy to sketchy waiters) I make a point of walking over to it myself. :)

I really do think your concerns are valid. There are some credit card companies and banks here which have already implemented RFID technology on credit cards and phones (non are iPhones obviously). Not too sure about how the Motorola RIFD phones work but with the credit cards, you only need to wave it at a reader and the transaction is done. I'd like to see what they're security folk have to say about this.

ConanTX
Nov 9, 2009, 10:04 PM
If a store's inventory uses RFID, then a retail associate could quickly locate merchandise if their iPhone was able to detect RFID signals. Walking up to a wall of jeans and being able to instantly find the size and style you need in a mess left after a big sale would be a great time saver. The employee could also take inventory just by walking through the department.

tknelson
Nov 10, 2009, 06:03 AM
I envision a market for some sort of faraday cage in an iPhone carrying case though grounding it maybe a challenge.

After-seller small business opportunity, become a chip remover or disabler perhaps.

1) A Faraday cage doesn't need to be grounded to work.
2) A "Faraday case" is a dumb idea. How would you receive calls?
3) The paranoid posts in the thread are stupid to the point of hilarity. Go live in an igloo somewhere, OK?

longofest
Nov 10, 2009, 01:37 PM
RFID is insecure. The british RFID passports have been cracked within less than 48 hours, the German test ones in less than a day. I wouldn't trust RFID for any important and sensible information like payment services. It's fine for stuff like tracking packages or my skiing card - but that's it.

RFID in passports is kind of another ball of wax. One of the issues with so-called e-Passports is that they store all of the information on the RFID tag (i.e. your personal information) rather than just a reference number to a database. This is so you don't have different countries accessing other countries' databases. However, the level of encryption used on these passports is very weak, so all of that data on the tag is potentially vulnerable.

It is generally considered best practice to put only reference numbers to a database on RFID tags. That way if you skim the tag all you have is jibberish without the accompanying database info.

Don't blame the technology... blame the incorrect use of the technology. I don't see how the above examples of Apple's potential usage could be a serious privacy threat like the passports are.

sn00p
Nov 10, 2009, 02:27 PM
RFID in passports is kind of another ball of wax. One of the issues with so-called e-Passports is that they store all of the information on the RFID tag (i.e. your personal information) rather than just a reference number to a database. This is so you don't have different countries accessing other countries' databases. However, the level of encryption used on these passports is very weak, so all of that data on the tag is potentially vulnerable.

It is generally considered best practice to put only reference numbers to a database on RFID tags. That way if you skim the tag all you have is jibberish without the accompanying database info.

Don't blame the technology... blame the incorrect use of the technology. I don't see how the above examples of Apple's potential usage could be a serious privacy threat like the passports are.

E-Passports are however resilient to casual scanning (i.e the bad guy standing behind you in the queue) because you need to know personal details about the passport holder in order to generate the access key (this information is physically written inside the passport and the reader uses OCR to read it and then generate the key to access the electronic information).

There have been many unfounded stories about E-Passports, mainly by scaremongering newspapers who find the dumbest "security export" money can buy.

Yes you can duplicate the electronic portion of an E-passport with the right equipment, but what you cannot do is change this original information to create a fake passport that will pass validation, the data is signed using public key cryptography and the private keys are exactly that, private.

Providing that the authorities validate e-passport data with the authentic public keys, there is no problem and no security hole.

madina
Nov 10, 2009, 02:59 PM
I don't believe I'd use this for payment. Well not if I had my debit card on me.
RFID Maybe useful for locating the device if it was stolen. Please Apple, can you render these small & expensive mobile devices useless if they are stolen?! It would deter thieves!

Stately
Nov 11, 2009, 08:56 AM
Why RFID?

Vending Machines

Gas Pumps

Door locks and passage locks

Home security system thing - let's you know who came to your door etc.

Subway Train Token

Movie Tickets

Digital "tickets" for anything.

Museum audio program guide thingies.

Micro Payment systems

Demographic plotting of people passing a turnstile

I hope people try to see beyond the "evil Gubment" spy stuff.

I think most do, even those who aren't conspiracy theorists. But it doesn't alleviate the fact that what you said remains true. The question is, do you want that type of control hovering overhead for a gadget that would make life easier? If someone had a million dollar motorcycle made for you but later they said, I get to watch you wherever you go. And you were uneasy about it, but loved the speed and the adrenaline rush of the ride and said to yourself "well I'll be obeying the speed limit anyway" so you let it go and kept the bike. Soon you found out they weren't just watching you when you were riding, they watched you wherever the bike was. Therefore, regardless of speed limit and adherence to the law, you were still monitored. A little creepy huh? Lol. :D

simulacra
Dec 21, 2009, 02:24 PM
RFID is insecure. The british RFID passports have been cracked within less than 48 hours, the German test ones in less than a day. I wouldn't trust RFID for any important and sensible information like payment services. It's fine for stuff like tracking packages or my skiing card - but that's it.

And why is it insecure that a passport encryption has been cracked?
Every passport has it's unique number and personal details, so even if a forgerer created a new passport to sell to some guy with shifty eyes the passport number returned when read would reveal the passport as false.

I really cant understand the fright towards new technologies, yes sure, all in all, we are headed towards a future where tracking ppl becomes easy, but we've been down that road since we got social security id/personal numbers at birth.

In the case with a RFID NFC reader in the iphone, your personal integrity has not been compromised beyond any extent compared to what it was before.
This tech makes life easier and is not endangering our personal integrity anymore than it already is.

shilpaworld01
Jan 28, 2010, 02:27 AM
This could have lots of cool uses though, and I was hoping a while ago that the iPhone would debut this technology on a large platform.

Henri Gaudier
Jan 28, 2010, 03:43 AM
Interesting to hear you say that -- I use the Oyster RFID card for public transport here in London, and it's incredibly efficient. Compared to paper tickets, it's faster to use, faster to pay for, and much more durable.

Would be great to have this built into my iPhone...

EDIT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oyster_card#Usage_statistics to see just how massively popular RFID technology is here. Only 4% of Tube users use cash, the rest use RFID for their journeys!

If there's one nation running towards a surveillance state it's the UK. Even the Information Commissioner agrees. What's worse is the UK Home Office has successfully proselytised this to the Dwarf Commander In Chief Sarko who has promised to spend literally billions to emulate the UK here in France.

hipsigti
Jan 28, 2010, 06:02 AM
I read somewhere awhile back that this same technology was in passports and and licenses and was very easy to read the information and hack in to the chip with some sort of device you can purchase or make from your local radio shack like a frequency scan tool like back in the old days with car alarms with code hopping technology! interesting video check out the whole vid the rfid part starts at 6:20sec. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuBo4E77ZXo

kickFlip
Feb 14, 2010, 02:18 PM
I am using iPhone 3GS here, but I miss my old phone that could do all that.
And if iPhone can do that, it'd be great for all the east asian countries that have RFID stuff in their everyday life; like Japan, Hong Kong/China and such.

I'm thinking that the Asian market is one of the large reasons why Apple is going forward with RFID implementation. The lack of RFID functionality was one of the major gripes Japanese users had with the iPhone. Which is partly the reason that the iPhone is not as successful there.

fourthtunz
Feb 15, 2010, 10:34 AM
I'm waiting for the Mark of the Beast = RFID comments to begin.

Serious, there are several segments of the population out there that have objections to this type of technology. I don't know if Apple cares though.

I guess we can already be tracked with the phones we already own?
Rfid would give more info though.
Our populace is largely ignorant of our own governments history and thus oblivious to the freedoms that would be given up freely by this being included in our phones.
Our government is trying to get rfid included in our licenses and has been met with stiff resistance. Now the sheeple will fall for the "convenience" of rfid in the phone.
Fools.

bornofmac
Feb 19, 2010, 01:37 PM
I guess we can already be tracked with the phones we already own?
Rfid would give more info though.
Our populace is largely ignorant of our own governments history and thus oblivious to the freedoms that would be given up freely by this being included in our phones.
Our government is trying to get rfid included in our licenses and has been met with stiff resistance. Now the sheeple will fall for the "convenience" of rfid in the phone.
Fools.

You know how you can turn your iPhone onto airplane mode? Most likely, especially with such a hot topic as this, you will be able to turn your RFID on and off, because as you remember, you are in control here. Phones also tend to be customizable. Right now based on size only (hd). Once again, with a topic like this, you will most likely be able to request no RFID in the phone.

Or, imagine this, if you don't like it, don't buy it. Simply go buy a different phone. The problem has been solved. Amazing.

If you're worried about the government know that you're a gaining weight because the pants your buying are larger than the last ones, maybe you should look at your self esteem, or maybe you have a weight problem. Try spending less time complaining on the internet and more time on your feet.

Either way, let them put RFID tags in. Lets advance to Japans level of technology. We here in America are so closed minded and paranoid. If you're so paraniod about the government knowing that you're buying things you shouldn't, don't bring your phone in the store, or don't do illegal activities.

And lastly, some of you are worried that advertisers will target people. As human beings (real live) we have freedom of choice. We don't have to listen to ads, and we can buy what we want. Develop a little self control. I don't want to see tampon ads when I am watching the game with the guys, it would be great if we had audience only oriented ads.

So, quit buying dirty magazines, bomb making materials, listening to every ad, and thinking that we have it all here in America, and then maybe embrace that Apple thinks like a human being a little more than the average corperation.

Cheers Apple heads!

fourthtunz
Feb 19, 2010, 05:19 PM
You know how you can turn your iPhone onto airplane mode? Most likely, especially with such a hot topic as this, you will be able to turn your RFID on and off, because as you remember, you are in control here. Phones also tend to be customizable. Right now based on size only (hd). Once again, with a topic like this, you will most likely be able to request no RFID in the phone.

Or, imagine this, if you don't like it, don't buy it. Simply go buy a different phone. The problem has been solved. Amazing.

If you're worried about the government know that you're a gaining weight because the pants your buying are larger than the last ones, maybe you should look at your self esteem, or maybe you have a weight problem. Try spending less time complaining on the internet and more time on your feet.

Either way, let them put RFID tags in. Lets advance to Japans level of technology. We here in America are so closed minded and paranoid. If you're so paraniod about the government knowing that you're buying things you shouldn't, don't bring your phone in the store, or don't do illegal activities.

And lastly, some of you are worried that advertisers will target people. As human beings (real live) we have freedom of choice. We don't have to listen to ads, and we can buy what we want. Develop a little self control. I don't want to see tampon ads when I am watching the game with the guys, it would be great if we had audience only oriented ads.

So, quit buying dirty magazines, bomb making materials, listening to every ad, and thinking that we have it all here in America, and then maybe embrace that Apple thinks like a human being a little more than the average corperation.

Cheers Apple heads!

How much does the Gov pay you?
That was a very well written first post!
Am I worried about the Gov knowing that I've gained weight?
Um no.
Read some history about our country.
Read the history about our Federal Reserve(Private Bank)
Read the patriot act.

I am not worried about a thing. Go ahead, keep believing what you want.
I can see where our country is headed, I will not trust our government for anything.

fourthtunz
Feb 19, 2010, 05:26 PM
If it is so insecure, why haven't we heard of all the peoplebeing ripped off where it's used quite extensively?

So with our media do you believe that you hear everything that goes on?

fourthtunz
Feb 19, 2010, 05:30 PM
1) A Faraday cage doesn't need to be grounded to work.
2) A "Faraday case" is a dumb idea. How would you receive calls?
3) The paranoid posts in the thread are stupid to the point of hilarity. Go live in an igloo somewhere, OK?

Sure, but there is a difference between paranoid and informed.
Go ahead, believe the media, enjoy American Idol and get Rfid for your phone.

opmaroon
Jul 20, 2010, 03:52 AM
F&%K THE CHIP!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7Dr6poEl_0

grantsdale
Jul 20, 2010, 12:18 PM
Bah, why do people bump old threads?

rdlink
Jul 20, 2010, 08:34 PM
at&t will know what your doing at all times:eek:

How can that be? They don't even know what they're doing.

TITNTUFF
Aug 12, 2010, 01:56 PM
I hope it uses it's own battery!:D

cwsm
Oct 30, 2010, 06:45 AM
So 2011 will be like 1984

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYecfV3ubP8

mercyjan1985
Nov 2, 2010, 03:56 AM
Hi,

you already use to card....

jbzoom
Nov 2, 2010, 04:38 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/iphone/2009/11/05/why-an-rfid-enabled-iphone/)

Multiple reports have come in that Apple is researching (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/11/05/apple-experimenting-with-rfid-enabled-iphone-prototypes/) RFID (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/07/09/new-apple-iphone-patent-applications-surface-object-and-facial-recognition-messaging-voice-modulation/) integration (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/07/02/haptic-feedback-fingerprint-identification-and-rfid-tag-readers-in-future-iphones/) into the iPhone, but some may still be wondering what such functionality would bring to the table for consumers.

Firstly, we should note that RFID is a catch-all term that describes a vast array of technologies and standards. RFID tags can be relatively large and battery-powered, such as ones used in toll collection, to small "passive" tags that can be embedded into credit cards, drivers licenses (called "Enhanced Drivers Licenses" in the U.S.), passports, or stuck onto a piece of merchandise.

Currently, cell-phone usage of RFID technology is centered around Near Field Communication (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_Field_Communication) (NFC). NFC has three main usage scenarios: a phone acting as an RFID tag; a phone acting as an RFID reader; and peer to peer communication (P2P).

In RFID tag mode, a phone could be used as a payment device (like a credit card), an identity card, or act as a car key. In RFID reader mode the phone would be able to interact with tags in its vicinity. This article and video (http://www.nearfield.org/2009/04/iphone-rfid-nfc) demonstrates how an iPhone with RFID could use physical objects to control media playback. And in P2P mode, Bluetooth pairing can be streamlined.

These are just a few ways that RFID could be used in an iPhone. When or if it becomes a reality isn't clear, but hopefully now you have a better idea of what the potential is for Apple's research in this area.

Article Link: Why an RFID-enabled iPhone? (http://www.macrumors.com/iphone/2009/11/05/why-an-rfid-enabled-iphone/)

Apple is believed to be working on technologies where your iOS device carries the configuration details of your OSX device, while the OSX device is backed up in the cloud. Then merely placing your iOS device next to another OSX device will enable that OSX device to be temporarily configured as if it were yours. And removing the iOS device will make the OSX device return to its original state. No wonder they are interested in short range radio technologies...

eawmp1
Nov 2, 2010, 04:38 AM
Time to move off the grid. :rolleyes:

http://www.conspirazzi.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/mel-gibson-conspiracy-theory.jpg

Ihatefall
Nov 14, 2010, 10:06 PM
The RFID chip will be a close range chip only. I had one in my Japanese cell phone when I lived there. It was called SUICA in the Tokyo area (its called different things else where in Japan). There was also a card just for riding the train by the same name. Regardless, it was awesome to have because Japanese ATMs aren't alway 24 hours, might banks closed at 9pm for example and that country isn't really into credit cards. So I always kept between 2000 to 10000 yen on it ($20-$100 USD), that way I could always grab a train home, get a drink or a snack if I needed it. Any place within a 10 walk of the station took the it, including vending machines.
It was really really handy! got me home the one time I lost my wallet!:)

I welcome it

tablo13
Nov 14, 2010, 10:11 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPod; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/532.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0.5 Mobile/8B117 Safari/6531.22.7)

So 2011 will be like 1984

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYecfV3ubP8

Or more like the book Little Brother by Cory Doctorow.

TITNTUFF
Nov 18, 2010, 11:21 AM
I want mine programmed so when I walk by a vending machine it spits out a Dr Pepper and a honey bun.
Then I can tell me wife I didn't do it, but waste not want not.....:D

CFreymarc
Nov 20, 2010, 11:39 AM
Knowing Apple there will be a way to turn it off in the OS if you don't want to use it. Also for the totally paranoid, a mod to remove the hardware from your iPhone will hit the web the week it is on the street.

Also, I bet the hardware will be laid out where removing a pair or surface mount resistors will make it that simple to disable separating the antenna from the semiconductor.


Why RFID?

Vending Machines

Gas Pumps

Door locks and passage locks

Home security system thing - let's you know who came to your door etc.

Subway Train Token

Movie Tickets

Digital "tickets" for anything.

Museum audio program guide thingies.

Micro Payment systems

Demographic plotting of people passing a turnstile

I hope people try to see beyond the "evil Gubment" spy stuff.

el-John-o
Nov 30, 2010, 07:55 AM
No spy chips, thank you.

http://spychips.com

I saw that website, and laughed.

"Wal-Mart is embedding RFID's In clothing ZOMG1984"

Those RFIDs are not secret government alien probes, they are made by sensormatic, are destroyed at point of sale (those demagnatizers, the bzzh sound is the RFID being scrambled), and only used if you walk out the door with something unpaid. Even then, it's not a GPS mega sensor that's tracking your every move, it just reacts with the sensors at the door to set off an alarm.