Online Distribution System Mac Devs use to sell OS X Apps?

[CodeJingle]

All feedback is appreciated. This thread is directed towards lone developers and small companies making a living off of selling Mac Leopard and Snow Leopard Apps. Just let me know how you host and sell your Mac Leopard or Snow Leopard Apps, whether it is self-done, or if done through a distribution system - what is the system you use and what do you think of it so far? Thanks very much! Kagi is an example of one for Mac and PC ( http://shop.kagi.com/ ), and for just PC SteamPoweredGames is very popular ( http://store.steampowered.com/ ).

I'm getting into Mac app development and was wondering what avenues developers use to distribute their paid apps (Mac NOT iPod/iPhone)? Truthfully I just want a cheap way to sell Mac apps, without the hassles of self-distribution and worrying about handling payments and payment systems myself. I have done this before, it is a big headache. iTunes does not host and sell Mac apps like they do for iPod/iPhone apps, although it is arguable that could be a bad thing [if they did]. I have a wife and two kids, so I have to make a living somehow :)

Plus I don't really have too much money after buying a Mac and an ADC Select Membership. You know so I can't go the 'paid advertising' and 'retail store' route of selling Mac apps. That is like 'Million Dollar Corporate' money, not 'little ol me' money :)

[kainjow]

For managing sales, I used Kagi when I was independent. I haven't stayed up-to-date with them for several years, but they are one of the originals.

I also worked with a company who used eSellerate (http://www.esellerate.net). I didn't do too much with it but did see a little how it worked.

As for distribution, you're kind of on your own. However, you might find Bodega (http://www.appbodega.com) interesting (I've never used it).

Be sure to keep your app updated on sites like MacUpdate and VersionTracker.

That's all I can think of for now, but again I haven't dealt with any of this for several years so I may behind the times.

Good luck :)

[GorillaPaws]

You also might want to take a look at Shine (http://github.com/tylerhall/Shine).

[CodeJingle]

Awesome. Thanks for the replies so far. Keep them coming, the more the merrier :)

[Bakerman]

There is also Golden%Braeburn (http://golden-braeburn.com/) (by the team behind Delicious Library) and a brand new Open Source offering, Cocoa Boutique (http://github.com/fraserhess/boutique).

[Darkroom]

i'm pretty sure Aquatic Prime (http://www.aquaticmac.com/) is still the cheapest (used with PayPal). hasn't been updated in years though, but it still works.

[rowsdower]

I have no idea how it is from a developer's perspective, but from a user's perspective I have never had a problem with Kagi.

[forcesteeler]

Well everyone is waiting for apple to come out with some kind of Tablet PC with a App Store.

I Like the Itunes Distribution Model in which Apple Handles the Payments, delivery,Hosting, etc..

I Hope they can make a similar model for MAC OSX Applications soon.

[Cromulent]

I Hope they can make a similar model for MAC OSX Applications soon.

If Apple did that it would do far more harm than good.

I used to agree with you but the more I think about it the more I think it would be an extremely bad business decision on Apples part if they did do it.

[forcesteeler]

If Apple did that it would do far more harm than good.

I used to agree with you but the more I think about it the more I think it would be an extremely bad business decision on Apples part if they did do it.

Not Really. The Centralized Model is Perfect idea. Customers tend to spend more money and they like to go to 1 place and shop for all there needs.

This is the reason why Wallmart and www.amazon.com is so big because you can buy Food, TV, DVD's, Games, Jewelry, Drug supplies,etc.. all in 1 place. unlike a few years ago where you would have to travel to many stores.

Same Revolution is happening in software industry. Instead of spending money on Hosting, Advertising, Payment Processor,etc.. Upload your product to 1 place like (Itunes) where all your customers can see your product instead of them going to different websites to look for it.

This is the Reason why Itunes and the APP Store is so successful They follow the Wallmart Centralized Model.

[CodeJingle]

If Apple did that it would do far more harm than good.

I used to agree with you but the more I think about it the more I think it would be an extremely bad business decision on Apples part if they did do it.

I think it would be fine as long as Apple didn't go nuts and 'take over', but they tend to do that so you may be right. I'm just hoping that someone 'gets it right' and creates a distribution system that is very popular but doesn't necessarily monopolize. It doesn't have to be Apple/iTunes.

Again if you go to SteamPoweredGames.com or have a PC and download their client, they have done a great job at this and didn't try to 'take over' (although it is only games, so they couldn't really 'take over').

FYI there is a mirroring thread on this here when I originally asked a different but very similar question (before posting to the programming forum) http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=818368

Anyone know how to get on this list ( http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/
)? I mean if anyone actually has apps on the list or has tried previously to get their app on the list please shed some light for me. Thanks! :)

[GorillaPaws]

There was a discussion on this topic (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=797387) last month actually.

[CodeJingle]

There was a discussion on this topic (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=797387) last month actually.

I tried searching the forums, I guess the keywords I had in mind were different and the search didn't bring anything up. Ah thanks, awesome. Well the new feedback is great too, definitely some suggestions not in that other thread. I must have missed the link for submitting on Apple's Downloads page. :)

You can already submit your app for listing on Apple's Downloads web page.

http://www.apple.com/downloads/

The link for submitting apps is near the bottom of the page, labeled "Submit Downloads".

This area of the Apple site has been around for years. Much longer than the App Store, in fact. If it hasn't spurred development, or been a fabulous way to get your app "discovered", you should ask yourself why not.

[GorillaPaws]

I tried searching the forums, I guess the keywords I had in mind were different and the search didn't bring anything up. Ah thanks, awesome. Well the new feedback is great too, definitely some suggestions not in that other thread. I must have missed the link for submitting on Apple's Downloads page. :)

I didn't mean to imply you didn't do your homework, only that the somewhat OT discussion of the merits of an Apple run App store for OSX apps might best be kept to that thread. My concern was trying to keep the discussion here more on topic to your question of what methods of distribution currently exist. Sorry for any confusion.

[CodeJingle]

My concern was trying to keep the discussion here more on topic to your question of what methods of distribution currently exist.

Yes I agree lets keep on track. People could even reply to the post that I mentioned a few replies ago to my other thread that is more a less a duplicate of the thread you just mentioned.

Yes also if anyone has posted or tried to post their or their company's Mac OS X app to http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/ I would love to hear your feedback!

[Cromulent]

Again if you go to SteamPoweredGames.com or have a PC and download their client, they have done a great job at this and didn't try to 'take over' (although it is only games, so they couldn't really 'take over').

Imagine if Steam was run by Microsoft and not Valve and then imagine that the whole Windows user base assumed that Steam was the only legitimate way to buy Windows software. Now also assume that some developers for whatever reason couldn't or didn't want to sell their software on Steam. What do you think would happen to their sales?

That is basically what would happen if Apple released a Mac OS X app store.

[CodeJingle]

That is basically what would happen if Apple released a Mac OS X app store.

But that is not the case with Steam. I said it doesn't have to be Apple. In this Post I'm asking actual Mac OS X devs how they make a living and for general feedback (specifically with regards to hosting, distributing, payment systems, any use of anti-piracy measures, etc). Lets reserve further banter for the other thread(s) such as GorillaPaws suggested (Besides as people in the software industry we should all already know about the histories of Microsoft and Apple since their corporate birth). If I didn't want to deal with the on-again off-again sleazy tactics of the corporate giants I wouldn't be developing for their platforms (however much I would like them not to use such tactics - you can assume I don't want to encourage such behavior).

If someone who is at this moment in time actually making a living off of selling Mac OS X apps and is against online distribution systems of any kind, that is the kind of feedback I would also be interested in, but please respond to me privately or in one of the other two threads: http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=818368 http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=797387

[ChrisA]

.
This is the Reason why Itunes and the APP Store is so successful They follow the Wallmart Centralized Model.

Successful only for selling $1 and free apps.

If Apple has to approve your app and can reject any it wants to then just like with the iPhone NO ONE will invest development money in a serious app. Would you risk $10M in development budget without knowing if the app would be rejected?

A soon as to give Apple veto power all you get are simple apps that don't cost much to develop.

[CodeJingle]

Would you risk $10M in development budget without knowing if the app would be rejected?

Please stop with the banter. ChrisA how do you distribute your paid Mac OS X apps, talk about what you do instead of what you don't do? If distribution systems of any kind are so bad then you must know a better way and it makes you lots of money. ChrisA What was your gross income last year selling Mac OS X apps without using a distribution system? ChrisA why do you even make apps for a company if you despise the tactics they use on some of their products and/or services? Plus all cell phone companies engage in these same brutal tactics with their devices (not sure about the new Android).

And your comment is farce because companies spend over a million dollars on console game budgets and the console manufacturer still has full veto power. In some ways the tactics of companies like Nintendo and Sony are worse than Apple. For iPhone apps you can submit an early stage version of the app to get initial feedback from Apple (just like the console companies do), you don't have to wait till the product is completely done and the budget is mostly gone to submit for initial approval.

And just to put it into perspective, I know the people who made the 'NightVision' app for iPhone, the app was just OK and still sold about 100,000 copies. It only took 2 people 4 days of development time to make. Even at only 99c a copy, those two people still made over $40k after paying Apple's distribution fees and government taxes (both guys are single so the IRS takes alot from them).

[Darkroom]

For iPhone apps you can submit an early stage version of the app to get initial feedback from Apple

???

[chown33]

For iPhone apps you can submit an early stage version of the app to get initial feedback from Apple...

AFAIK, that's not true. When you submit an app, Apple expects it to be complete. If it's approved, it will go directly into the App Store, exactly as submitted. If you don't want to distribute the app you submit for approval, then you better not submit it.

I suppose you could structure development so the first version submitted is simplified in some way, compared to your vision of where the app will eventually go. But I think Apple would still expect it to be complete: no placeholder text, no placeholder images, no invalid URLs, fully conforming to UI guidelines, etc.

[CodeJingle]

AFAIK, that's not true. When you submit an app, Apple expects it to be complete.

Ah. Yes that is a legitimate concern. Any manufacturer with full veto power on apps has to have an initial submission process. Apple's iTouch/iPhone app submission process is highly flawed then. They should be following Nintendo or Sony's initial submission process. We are still getting off track here :)

What process and systems does everyone use to sell their Mac OS X apps?

[forcesteeler]

Successful only for selling $1 and free apps.

If Apple has to approve your app and can reject any it wants to then just like with the iPhone NO ONE will invest development money in a serious app. Would you risk $10M in development budget without knowing if the app would be rejected?

A soon as to give Apple veto power all you get are simple apps that don't cost much to develop.

I have worked in the Video Game Industry and Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft all have the power to reject your product.

[CodeJingle]

I have worked in the Video Game Industry and Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft all have the power to reject your product.

Yes. They all have an initial submission process though, which it seems is Apple's biggest flaw in their iTouch/iPhone distribution system.

Though I am most interested in the answer to the question What process and systems does everyone use to advertise, host, distribute, sell, etc. for their Mac OS X apps (I am more interested in people answering this question who are doing this currently for a living as opposed to being out of it for a while)?

[chown33]

Here's a recent article on using PayPal as your payment processor.
http://arstechnica.com/web/guides/2009/11/how-to-set-up-an-e-commerce-site-using-paypal-to-process.ars

Be sure to read the comments for further information and recommendations, e.g. Google Checkout.

I'm not going to advocate or disparage PayPal. I know people who've been hosed, and others who've happily been working with them for years. I also know people who haven't been hosed, but still deal defensively. The plural of "anecdote" is not "data". YMMV.

[CodeJingle]

Here's a recent article on using PayPal as your payment processor.
http://arstechnica.com/web/guides/2009/11/how-to-set-up-an-e-commerce-site-using-paypal-to-process.ars

Be sure to read the comments for further information and recommendations, e.g. Google Checkout.


A previous post in this thread was for an engine using PayPal. Though I don't think it mentioned anything else about Google Checkout. That is good info if it includes stuff about Google Checkout. Thanks. Anyone ever sell Mac OS X apps using Google Checkout through a webpage or directly through some kind of API - feedback and how do their rates fare?

[GorillaPaws]

I know people who've been hosed, and others who've happily been working with them for years...

What kinds of issues should someone be mindful of when dealing with Paypal? Like you said, anecdote != statistical evidence, but I would be interested to hear some of the issues that could potentially become problems that one might want to keep on their radar. Maybe these issues are not limited strictly to Paypal.

[CodeJingle]

What kinds of issues should someone be mindful of when dealing with Paypal? Like you said, anecdote != statistical evidence, but I would be interested to hear some of the issues that could potentially become problems that one might want to keep on their radar. Maybe these issues are not limited strictly to Paypal.

If you are in the US and your profits aren't huge you should be fine. I've seen a few companies from other countries that opened PayPal accounts and got their newbie accounts 'limited' or 'suspended' for making too much money all at once (because of automated PayPal fraud prevention methods). So to become a legitimate business using PayPal it is far better to have an establised PayPal account you have been using for years instead of creating a newbie PayPal account right when you want to start a high-profit business. And to have your profits go up slowly over time. At one point I was making several thousand dollars a month and PayPal wasn't complaining at all. Having an established account before you 'make it big' and having profits increase over time is general fare for payment systems to not bark at you.

Also, trying to sell goods before they exist is usually a no-no with payment system like PayPal. Take it from http://openpandora.org/ who tried to sell 4,000 units of their device before manufacturing was completed, and they were refused access to the money of the payments by the people in charge of the payment processing systems OpenPandora used.

[Cromulent]

If you are serious you'll want to use a proper merchant bank account with an internet gateway rather than one of the services like PayPal or Google Checkout.

It does unfortunately mean that you need to be PCI-DSS compliant but if you are selling goods online then it pays to understand what that entails. Be warned that technically you are still bound by the requirement to be PCI-DSS compliant even if you use an off site payment processor such as PayPal.

[chown33]

Though I am most interested in the answer to the question What process and systems does everyone use to advertise, host, distribute, sell, etc. for their Mac OS X apps?

You ask that almost as if there's a single answer. I don't think there is one single answer that "everyone" uses. I don't think there's one answer that's best, either. It depends on what your app is doing, what kind of hosting you need to support it, what kind of tolerance for non-paying users you have, etc. Since you haven't said what any of those are, it's difficult to advise.

I will be releasing an app shortly. It will have a website hosted on squarespace.com. At least some of the app's remote storage will be hosted on Amazon's S3 service. I may or may not have Amazon DevPay in the first version. I may or may not use Google services (App Engine, etc.) That's the technical side.

On the payment side, I haven't decided yet. I may ship the first version as a limited or trial app, and worry about payments later, if the app goes somewhere. No point investing in a plodding racehorse.

On the publicity side, I will submit it to Apple for inclusion on its Downloads page, via https://adcweb.apple.com/downloads/. I will also submit it to other channels, which I won't name.

Some of this falls under Do Your Own Homework. It takes me time & effort to investigate things, and if I learn something useful, it isn't necessarily in my business interests to give that away for free. If you don't know how to find things out by yourself, or expect someone to hand everything to you, or you can't afford to take risks, then you shouldn't be in this kind of business. I'm not saying you are that way, just that it seems this is where the discussion seems to be heading.

A lot of this was learned the old-fashioned way: by doing it wrong and failing. It's painful, but pain is a wonderful teacher. You have to honestly ask yourself (and those who depend on you) what your pain threshold is. If you can't do that, or you don't have a complete answer (with deadlines for ROI, amount of acceptable debt, a fallback plan, etc.), then you probably shouldn't be doing it. I'm not saying you can't be successful at it. Just that if you're not genuinely prepared for any given venture to fail, you could be in for a world of hurt.

Gee, that's a lot more than I intended to type. Oh well. Free advice is often worth exactly what you paid for it.

[CodeJingle]

If you are serious you'll want to use a proper merchant bank account with an internet gateway rather than one of the services like PayPal or Google Checkout.


But that means you miss out on so much. 'Doing it all on your own' with your own website and own payment system means you miss out on the free publicity of going through highly advertised markets like owning a PayPal or eBay store.

It is like re-inventing the wheel all over again. Why re-create an 'Amazon.com' when you can simply sell your goods on 'Amazon.com'?

[forcesteeler]

If you use Paypal you cannot make to much money with a new account. They will suspend your account and hold your money for god knows how long.

According to some developers i know that make apps for the BlackBerry "APP WORLD" RIM outsource there payment processor to paypal.

It can be a problem if you make to much money.

[CodeJingle]

You ask that almost as if there's a single answer. I don't think there is one single answer that "everyone" uses.

I want everyone's answers, whether they conflict or not. And a little conflict is good, at least according to basic psychology. I am doing my homework. Right now. This thread is just one of the tools I am using to make potentially long term decisions. In the long run it will be just a blip on the scope in terms of learning and growing as a Mac OS X developer. You guys [n gals] are part of my resources. If you don't want to share the knowledge gained over years then don't. I'm not really sure what else a forum is for besides exchanging ideas (well and flaming people). :)

I am an award winning software developer and tester. I have 3 recommendations on my LinkedIn account. I have been developing PC software for 8 years, 4 years academically and as an independent, 4 of those years as an industry professional (as a professional I've also developed for embedded platforms not just PC). I have shipped titles independently and as part of companies I worked for. I have [hopefully] as much knowledge to share with Mac OS X developers as I have to gain from them.

And technically 4 of the independent products I worked and personally published with my friend (3 were paid products, one was free) were made in Macromedia Director, so it would have been a cinch to publish the games for both PC and Mac but we didn't have a copy of the Mac version of Director at the time and we didn't have Macs to test it on. So I almost can say I have years of Mac development experience (well I certainly know how to write an app in Lingo, and I've made a few Mac apps back when GameSprockets and QuickDraw were the 'in' APIs). Although I think Adobe killed Director after buying Macromedia and coming out with one final new version (I think MX 2004 then 11.5, unless there was a version in between).

So I've been doing this stuff for a while and have been around the block a few times. I paid out the bum for CodeWarrior back when that was the development platform of choice fore Mac, I HATED how structure member expansion only worked during debugging (I didn't memorize the names of structure members). When I started college I started writing my code assignments using independent code that built and ran on PC and Mac using either Visual Studio or CodeWarrior. But I didn't have enough money to keep up with both Mac and PC technology, so I had to drop Mac support from my apps and stopped Mac app development until just recently.

[Cromulent]

But that means you miss out on so much. 'Doing it all on your own' with your own website and own payment system means you miss out on the free publicity of going through highly advertised markets like owning a PayPal or eBay store.

It is like re-inventing the wheel all over again. Why re-create an 'Amazon.com' when you can simply sell your goods on 'Amazon.com'?

First of all you can't sell digital downloads on eBay so that rules that one out. PayPal store? Never knew PayPal had their own store and I ran an ecommerce site that used PayPal Website Payments Pro for the payment processor for a while.

Generally speaking existing distribution networks (such as Steam) are only good if you are developing things to appeal to the mass market. Start doing something that is pretty niche and you find that directly advertising to that segment will result in a higher conversion ratio.

[CodeJingle]

Generally speaking existing distribution networks (such as Steam) are only good if you are developing things to appeal to the mass market. Start doing something that is pretty niche and you find that directly advertising to that segment will result in a higher conversion ratio.

Yes you are right, when I developed drag racing games that featured Buick cars (such as Grand National and Regal) it was a niche market and that benefited greatly from targeted marketing. But it would have been just as good to feature the game in Steam as well as through the private channels I went through.

My plan is to go ALL profitable routes when distributing software. Possibly to sell my software through PayPal, Google Checkout, through Kagi, on my own website, and whatever other distribution sytems have the most exposure and the best cost-to-profit ratios (and the least amount of 'exclusivity'). I would personally think it foolish to only go one route when selling my own software. Unless you are selling to a closed market like console or on a phone platform (or iPod Touch), it is probably never a good idea to go only one route. Especially for PC games, it is almost impossible to make money unless you sell through every possible avenue imaginable (or if you just have a truly awesome app, but that is rare I think even for great app developers). And if possible even develop the app for multiple platforms - it is another possibility but requires more work for cross-platform design and OS-independent coding.

[CodeJingle]

Thanks for the continued feedback it really is a great help! I hope my feedback has convinced others I stand my own and am not a dumb newbie trying to climb over the success of others. Hopefully I get some more juicy tidbits amid the flames and banter before this thread dies off. Bye! :)

[Cromulent]

Hopefully I get some more juicy tidbits amid the flames and banter before this thread dies off. Bye! :)

No one has flamed anyone on this thread as far as I can see.

[CodeJingle]

No one has flamed anyone on this thread as far as I can see.

Ok well just 'juicy tidbits amid the banter' then. Everyone has different thresholds when it comes to what they find offensive, I was just erring on the conservative side. Where I work it is hard to criticise and I have to end every email with 'Thanks' otherwise it may be taken to offense. Unless it is just me. Could be :)

I've really enjoyed this thread so far.

[GorillaPaws]

I'm not sure if you're aware of the Mac Developer Network (http://www.mac-developer-network.com/), but it's a great resource for the Mac developer community. They did a podcast series called the Mac Software Buisness podcast which will have lots of useful info for you.

It's based on the macsb Yahoo group (http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/macsb/) which is probably worth checking out for some great info related to the types of questions you're asking. There are a bunch of other useful resources on the MDN as well for you, or anyone else who may stumble on this thread in a search.

[rossipoo]

You can't really expect to receive services like initial approvals from Apple for only 99 dollars. It a very good deal as it is, I think the system is quite fair. In fact if you are working on a high budget application, I bet you could work out a deal with Apple and get an initial approval. A developer licence for PS3 costs thousands, so of course you will recieve better service.

[wrldwzrd89]

I'm a lone wolf Mac/Windows/Linux developer. All my applications thus far have been FOSS (free and open source software), so I've had zero need for payment processing or anything like that. I just push them out to my web site. However, the solutions listed in this thread are of at least potential interest to me in future development.

[kainjow]

Anyone ever sell Mac OS X apps using Google Checkout through a webpage or directly through some kind of API - feedback and how do their rates fare?

I wrote a PHP script for Google Checkout's API once, but it didn't end up getting much use. As for rates, that's pretty basic info you could find via google...

[CodeJingle]

I'm a lone wolf Mac/Windows/Linux developer. All my applications thus far have been FOSS (free and open source software), so I've had zero need for payment processing or anything like that. I just push them out to my web site. However, the solutions listed in this thread are of at least potential interest to me in future development.

Right, I've helped on development of free apps. And it is a noble cause, in fact even I too wish all apps were free. But I have to make a living, not all my stuff can be free and simultaneously pave the way for a bright future for my children :)

Yes and rossipoo you are right, having an initial approval process will substantially increase the cost and complexity of Apple's system (the simple fact of going from 1 to 2 approval process effectively doubles the complexity). But Apple should at least offer an optional way to submit for initial approval, they could even charge extra for it. It is something that really needs to be available for people looking to develop high-profile iPhone/iPod Touch applications.

[GorillaPaws]

If you use Paypal you cannot make to much money with a new account. They will suspend your account and hold your money for god knows how long.

According to some developers i know that make apps for the BlackBerry "APP WORLD" RIM outsource there payment processor to paypal.

It can be a problem if you make to much money.

I just ran across an article (http://blog.apparentsoft.com/business/124/is-paypal-good-for-your-microisv-business-a-short-paypal-horror-story/) about a developer going through this situation, and I remembered this thread. I thought I'd post the link here for the benefit of others. It's pretty scary how much control/power Paypal has in these situations--wow.

[CylonGlitch]

I just ran across an article (http://blog.apparentsoft.com/business/124/is-paypal-good-for-your-microisv-business-a-short-paypal-horror-story/) about a developer going through this situation, and I remembered this thread. I thought I'd post the link here for the benefit of others. It's pretty scary how much control/power Paypal has in these situations--wow.

A friend of the family just passed away and his widow set up a Paypal account to take donations for the boys trust funds (they are young) and for funeral costs, etc... Well, after a few days Paypal froze the account and won't release the money saying that they have to set up a merchant ID and turn it into a business account. After the widow spoke with them, explained what is going on, they refused to change their claim that it was a business. She is now working with the government to setup a trust fund company to get Paypal to release the funds. BUT she needs some of that money to pay the lawyer, the funeral, and other things. :( Not bad enough that her husband died, now she has to deal with this crappola. Not a huge fan of Paypal anymore.

[CodeJingle]

Ah sweetness, first Steam comes to Mac and now an Apple app store next year...

http://store.steampowered.com/

"The Mac App Store. Coming soon to a Mac near you."
http://www.apple.com/macosx/lion/
http://www.apple.com/mac/app-store/

I think Steam has been an amazing thing for Apple and Mac. If Apple doesn't over do it, having their own App store could be a good thing too.

Yeah PayPal can be very unfriendly sometimes, especially when it comes to overseas companies or intangible goods.