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arn
Jul 23, 2002, 01:23 PM
MacOSXRumors (http://www.macosxrumors.com) posts a rumor that Apple may be positioning Appleworks against Office, and also suggest the possibility of free-version to be bundled with machines, similar to other iApps.

Meanwhile, ThinkSecret (http://www.thinksecret.com/news/officexservices.html) reports that MS Office OS X may bring OS X Service support with Jaguar (10.2).

ShaolinMiddleFinger
Jul 23, 2002, 01:36 PM
Very good for Apple. I've already seen Appleworks at school, i see more students using Appleworks now rather than Office. I guess it's because it comes free with the mac

Mr. Anderson
Jul 23, 2002, 01:43 PM
I've not really had an opportunity to use it, can it translate - import and export - ms documents? In my thinking that would be the best way to gain acceptance, period. And what do they have that's comperable to PowerPoint that you can use for presentations?

But over all, the idea of moving away from MS Office sounds like a great idea.

D

Backtothemac
Jul 23, 2002, 01:47 PM
I love it! Give it to them I say. Not only that, but there is a PC version of AppleWorks. Make the app cross platform, and boom, there is another mole into their lair. he.he.

Bring Apple, I cannot wait to be microsoft free.

jelloshotsrule
Jul 23, 2002, 01:58 PM
you can import/export certain file types i know.... not sure about all though. and as far as i know, there's nothing quite as thorough as powerpoint. that's not to say they won't add something like that though, if they really really want to be office competitive.

loveshismac
Jul 23, 2002, 01:59 PM
I can only hope that this rumor is true!

The iOffice will only work if I can open up my M$ Office docs in it.
Otherwise not dice. I have way too much time invested in current Office documents.

Making it cross playform.... I dont like that idea. Screw them.
Buy a MAC and then you can use the killer apps.


Now bring on an Apple Browser and we can truly be M$ free!!!

backspinner
Jul 23, 2002, 02:01 PM
don't want to spoil the joy, but I abandonned AW for the simple reason that it makes ugly documents. it just wont render plain text like letters nice. office does a much better job.

solvs
Jul 23, 2002, 02:01 PM
I just wish it came free with a Tower. If I'm paying $3,000 + for a machine, I guess they assume I'll want M$ Orifice... I mean, Office, which I don't. I just need basic utilities and the ability to open other peoples docs. I can use Final Draft to draw up the important stuff.

It's only an extra $30 (EDU discount and current mail-in rebate) for the current, but limited, offering. But the way Apple has been lately, I'm wondering if the new version would be free.

lordsinforge
Jul 23, 2002, 02:03 PM
If memory serves you can open at least MS word files in appleworks

LS

Wash!!
Jul 23, 2002, 02:28 PM
Apple Works can open MS word and Excell files from
MS 5 to MS xp 2002. The only thing it can not open is power point files.

There was program way back called Astound it was pretty good and sometimes better than PP it even can animated 3D charts.

It died the last version I think was 3.1.

Wash

topicolo
Jul 23, 2002, 02:37 PM
Can't you guys see that this is bad news? It shows that M$ is probably ready to drop support for software on the mac and if they do that suddenly, it's going to leave a huge vacuum and a loud sucking sound... As in it SUCKS. Without office, Apple's going to have an even harder time trying to get the mac into corps because ignorant IT managers are instantly going to discount the mac because it doesn't have office. Also, new users will be turned off because they'll think that their old documents "won't be compatible with the mac because it doesn't have Office." Either way, this is going to put a big monetary drain on apple, both in developing and maintaining appleworks, and in advertising to potential switchers that the mac IS compatible with M$ office docs. Just having a cheap, but fully functional Office suite that is compatible with Office won't do, as Wordperfect Office for the pc has shown (Corel's practically bankrupt).

It would be even worse if M$ pulled IE because most basic pc users are still using IE and have probably never heard of Mozilla, Opera or have very little knowledge of Netscape (nowadays). When they switch to the mac, they'll be expecting to use IE for their browsing and if the mac doesn't have it, it's going to be another con in the mind of an average (potential) switcher.

StuPid QPid
Jul 23, 2002, 02:44 PM
Even if Apple introduce their own Office App, I don't see why M$ need to drop their development of Office for OSX. Last I heard (correct me if I'm wrong) M$ made good money on Office for the Mac. I never heard Microsoft turn down the chance to make money. Mind you, with them complaining about the advertising by Apple of OSX, maybe Office v.X isn't making enough money?

gbojim
Jul 23, 2002, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by Wash!!
Apple Works can open MS word and Excell files from
MS 5 to MS xp 2002. The only thing it can not open is power point files.
Wash

It can open them but there are some major limitations preventing companies from going this direction. A couple of glaring problems - with Word, if you use numbers and/or bullets they do not transfer well at all, and with Excel, you cannot use a file with more than 1 worksheet.

backspinner is also right in that it does not render to the screen well.

I actually think Apple might be smarter to put a major effort into porting OpenOffice to OS X. OpenOffice communicates quite well with MS Office (not perfect but very good) and the underlying functionality is pretty complete. In addition, beyond the technical reasons, a number of governments are pushing the use of open source software in their departments to reduce cost. Using OpenOffice and distributing it free could help Apple penetrate that market more.

djniche
Jul 23, 2002, 02:52 PM
There's been many articles that talk about about his marriage not working out. Microsoft and Apple that is - with the switch ad campaing and the partnership between apple and aol - doesn't seem like the support will last much longer.

If apple can come up with a product similar or better than microsoft office and works seamlessly with ms office files then go apple!! I can see that it's going to have to be that way with all the contraversy that's being going between the two.

iH8Quark
Jul 23, 2002, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by StuPid QPid
Mind you, with them complaining about the advertising by Apple of OSX, maybe Office v.X isn't making enough money?

The marketing for OS X has been virtually nonexistant. Never has I seen an ad for OS X, not in a magazine, newspaper, billboard, television, or web banner. Nothing.

Lord only knows why they haven't marketed it, but M$ does have a point.

but an Apple Branded version of office would be sweet. Word is about the worst designed program I've ever used.

microsoft
>>entourage is
>no
better.

iGav
Jul 23, 2002, 02:58 PM
if this is true it certainly is an interesting development, and IMHO exactly what Apple need to do.... to produce a viable alternative to MS Office, that is fully compatible with Office.......

Apple need to makesure that they have solid products that can interface perfectly with other companies products so that if a companies threaten to pull a product, Apple isn't going to be left up the creek.......

As for PP..... hopefully Apple will be able to come up with something far better, and capable of better things..... PP is just about the worst package out there...... PP makes the most boring of corporate presentations even more mind numbing...... the package is just totally naff........

But for it to fully succeed..... like B2TM says... make it cross-platform and 1000x better than anything available on the PC platform.......

Edge100
Jul 23, 2002, 03:03 PM
I have seen OS X ads in "The Scientist" magazine. They basically emphasize how good OS X's UNIX core is

backspinner
Jul 23, 2002, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by iGAV
Apple need to makesure that they have solid products that can interface perfectly with other companies products so that if a companies threaten to pull a product, Apple isn't going to be left up the creek.......

yes, but initially they shouldn't give them away as the other iApps, since this will pull the competitors out of competition. Make it twice as good and half the price and I will happily shell out the money for it (as I do for 10.2)!

People shouldn't think that the iOffice is the only office suite that is available for the mac so that is why it should be a product to buy and not to get. Ah well, getting things for free is over now at Apple so we don't have to fear about that.

Mr. Anderson
Jul 23, 2002, 03:25 PM
the problem with cross platform products is that you go directly head to head in the MS market - Apple is a small market for them - and by shaking the tree, all sorts of crap is going to rain down on us.

If MS pulls support for Apple and iOffice doesn't get widely accepted or has *issues* Apple's sunk.

I think for now making it compatible and offering complimentary apps instead of competitive ones would be the best move. Be patient and take it slow, give it time to build a user base. Right now I'd love to have a decent option to MS Office, but the current version of AppleWorks isn't there.

D

Wash!!
Jul 23, 2002, 03:27 PM
True, there are some problems, but that's should try to fix and make work well enough for you to use AW instead of Office.

Cheers

FelixDerKater
Jul 23, 2002, 03:38 PM
Losing MS Office for Mac OS would severely wound Apple, especially as they are tryign to push the Mac as a business machine as well. Businesses don't five a F--- about software being "compatible" with MS Office. They don't want AppleWorks. They want Microsoft Office... Why? Because that is what they were trained on, and it is the general standard. Microsoft Word is what WordPerfect was many years ago, the accepted standard.

Although I don't personally mind the idea of an expanded AppleWorks (iOffice, etc.), I am mindful of the troubles I had dealing with programs such as MacLink Plus back in the days of System 7, working hard to maintain some sort of formatting across the platforms. Hopefully, this has all improved, and will be much better if Apple decides to compete head-on with MS Office. :rolleyes: :cool: :o

eric_n_dfw
Jul 23, 2002, 03:43 PM
Apple's OS X, Unix ads have been in Information Week for a while now too.
(The one that says, "Sends all other Unix boxes to /dev/null")

Backtothemac
Jul 23, 2002, 03:46 PM
Just for a test I went home and installed Appleworks on my iMac. I updated to the latest release, and every, let me say that again, EVERY document and Excel file that I opened, opened perfectly. Not only can it open them, but if you create a new document or spreadsheet in AppleWorks, then you can choose to save it in word or excel format from jump. It was seamless and flawless.

Office v.X went to the trash. I never knew that AppleWorks was that sweet. Now, bring me iOffice.

Oh, and lets step on some toes. Personally, I think we give Office for PC to much credit. I would be willing to bet that most users of PC's use Works. Hmmm... AppleWorks, Microsoft Works. strange don't you think :eek:

davegutt
Jul 23, 2002, 03:48 PM
Has anyone heard of Open Office? Its for Windows, Linux and OSX, and it is FREE, or 79 w/ support.

OSX will be out in a bit, but Windows version is out. It opens all Office docs, and does a few neat tricks with graphics.

It is the real deal.

http://www.openoffice.org

Dave Gutt

iH8Quark
Jul 23, 2002, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by eric_n_dfw
"Sends all other Unix boxes to /dev/null"

hahaha that's pretty good. :)

Okay, I'm wrong then.

wake up Jobs!!!
Jul 23, 2002, 03:55 PM
They need office on the mac platform, because if they do not , many of the people who switch to the mac will have no way to upload their office files and windose stuff to the mac. It would totally ruin everything the "switch " ads stand for. I think apple will do alot to try and make sure that M$ office does not leave the mac platform.

Gabe-

backspinner
Jul 23, 2002, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by eric_n_dfw
Apple's OS X, Unix ads have been in Information Week for a while now too.
(The one that says, "Sends all other Unix boxes to /dev/null")
a unix add is not quite the same as advertising to the public

on another note: yes, business users need just MS Office, no questioning, price doesn't really matter, it has to work, buy-install-be productive, period.

whfsdude
Jul 23, 2002, 04:00 PM
Aslong as there is no frontpage app from Apple I will be happy :P


frontpage just plain sucks.

Backtothemac
Jul 23, 2002, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by wake up Jobs!!!
They need office on the mac platform, because if they do not , many of the people who switch to the mac will have no way to upload their office files and windose stuff to the mac. It would totally ruin everything the "switch " ads stand for. I think apple will do alot to try and make sure that M$ office does not leave the mac platform.

Gabe-

Wrong. AppleWorks will read any office created document. That is a fact. I just did it at home, and it was flawless. Especially if they boost the features and include it with new Macs.

kenohki
Jul 23, 2002, 04:04 PM
Don't kid yourselves. Apple can't afford to lose MS Office support. Enterprise wants Office and Exchange and if they can't get it on the Mac to provide a homogenous environment, at least as far as applications, then the Macs will be thrown out the door due to TCO (Total Cost of Ownership for those who aren't in the IT field). Enterprise zombies know Excel, they know pivot tables, they know how to write macros in VBA (VisualBasic for Applications). Try taking your VBA macro and running it on AppleWorks.

Let Sun and OpenOffice fight the office suite battle. Let Apple stop squandering their resources on screwing up developer relations and focus on expending resources to get us faster hardware!!!

I don't know if anyone remembers Apple's now defunct software subsidiary called Claris. They were at one point responsible for MacWrite II/Pro, ClarisWorks, FileMaker, HyperCard, etc. Well AppleWorks is essentially ClarisWorks. ClarisWorks came in Mac and Windows flavors and hardly put a dent in MS Office. Apple should know better than to try this again. If they're stupid enough to try and take on MS Office with something like AppleWorks then they deserve to lost any enterprise marketshare they have left.

StuPid QPid
Jul 23, 2002, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by Backtothemac
Oh, and lets step on some toes. Personally, I think we give Office for PC to much credit. I would be willing to bet that most users of PC's use Works. Hmmm... AppleWorks, Microsoft Works. strange don't you think :eek:

"Microsoft Works" :confused:

Does it? First I've heard :D

Note: apologies for the old gag. I notice Microsoft Works is number one in the top 20 "oxymoron list" at oxymoronlist.com :rolleyes:

hesdeadjim
Jul 23, 2002, 04:12 PM
M$ Word is the worst piece of software every created. M$ has done nothing on both PC and Mac in the last 5 years to increase productivity, ease of use, and user friendliness. I use WordPerfect 3.0 usually if I know I'm just going to print it out at home. Sadly, the only other option is Apple Works, and it isn't as fully functional. The key to Office in my mind is Excel and PowerPoint, until Apple can get a good competitor to these two products, then iOffice or Apple Works is useless in the real world.

Until there is viable competitor to Office, I think Apple should concentrate elsewhere. Sadly, as the business and Personal computing worlds stand, there is no life without Office. Starting competition will only prove in coverting less PC users, less businesses, and less profit for Apple.

aafuss1
Jul 23, 2002, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by Backtothemac
I love it! Give it to them I say. Not only that, but there is a PC version of AppleWorks. Make the app cross platform, and boom, there is another mole into their lair. he.he.

Bring Apple, I cannot wait to be microsoft free.

Well, on the PC, Microsoft Works (it does come with a lot of Windows computers) is going to get a new version, and I wish it could open Claris/AppleWorks files. I use ClarisWorks (Oremwmber before it was renamed AppleWorks.

lordsinforge
Jul 23, 2002, 04:25 PM
I mean even if M$ won a antitrust case against them for dropping support of Office for another major OS maker any cash they would save from stopping the support would be lost on legal costs. And even if the US decided not to prosecute there are some countries that are pissed at M$'s lack of right to left languages in office who would gladly raise a ruckus.

aafuss1
Jul 23, 2002, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by StuPid QPid


"Microsoft Works" :confused:

Does it? First I've heard :D

Note: apologies for the old gag. I notice Microsoft Works is number one in the top 20 "oxymoron list" at oxymoronlist.com :rolleyes:


Well it does exsist:
Works 6.0 (http://www.microsoft.com/catalog/display.asp?subid=22&site=10535&x=58&y=4)
and there's a new version coming soon:
Works 7.0 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000069IL6/qid=1026)


By the way, Mircosoft sells it Works package, with Word, Maoney,Encarta, and Picture It!-it's good value (and is supplied with many PC's). Maybe Apple could create a AppleWorks suite-AppleWorks, iCal,iSync and some sort of encyclopedia.
A new version of AppleWorks-I predict it would be released in 2003

eric_n_dfw
Jul 23, 2002, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by aafuss1
By the way, Mircosoft sells it Works package, with Word, Maoney,Encarta, and Picture It!-it's good value (and is supplied with many PC's).

Yep - on Dell's site, I clicked the first home PC I saw and it comes with MS Works Suite - which includes MS Word.

From Dell's site:Microsoft Works Suite 2002 - The best choice for accomplishing a variety of home computing tasks. This suite of software includes the robust Microsoft Word application for writing letters, creating resumes, and more. Find your way around town with Streets & Trips, or research a topic for school with Encarta encyclopedia. With all these applications and more, Works Suite offers a solution for the entire family!


Originally posted by aafuss1
Maybe Apple could create a AppleWorks suite-AppleWorks, iCal,iSync and some sort of encyclopedia.
A new version of AppleWorks-I predict it would be released in 2003
Or maybe Apple and MS could get off their high-horses and work out a similar package with MS Word for Mac included. I use AppleWorks at home, but it cannot always handle the formatting done by my company's marketing geeks. (Who, aparently have far too much time on their hands to write Word macros and whatnot!) I really need Word for Mac to work on my Mac at home. Outlook (not express) for OS X would be nice too.

drastik
Jul 23, 2002, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by aafuss1



Well it does exsist:
Works 6.0 (http://www.microsoft.com/catalog/display.asp?subid=22&site=10535&x=58&y=4)
and there's a new version coming soon:
Works 7.0 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000069IL6/qid=1026)


By the way, Mircosoft sells it Works package, with Word, Maoney,Encarta, and Picture It!-it's good value (and is supplied with many PC's). Maybe Apple could create a AppleWorks suite-AppleWorks, iCal,iSync and some sort of encyclopedia.
A new version of AppleWorks-I predict it would be released in 2003

except iCal and iSync are free, or will bw with 10.2. I do like the encyclopedia idea, tho.

drastik
Jul 23, 2002, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by eric_n_dfw

Outlook (not express) for OS X would be nice too.

Gotta say that entourage beats the hell out of Outlook, and I use both everyday;)

eric_n_dfw
Jul 23, 2002, 05:02 PM
Something that's ticked me off ever since I plopped down $2000+ for my G3/400 is that, short of OS 8.5, it came with absolutely NO software! People paying a lot less for the Bondi-Blue iMac's were getting huge bundles with Quicken, AppleWorks, etc. but we "pros" got zilch. A practice that still goes on to this day. (Although, iMovie, iDVD, iPhoto and iTunes are welcome additions)

eric_n_dfw
Jul 23, 2002, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by drastik


Gotta say that entourage beats the hell out of Outlook, and I use both everyday;)
Does Entourage connect to MS Exchange Server?

NeXTCube
Jul 23, 2002, 05:14 PM
Like a number of other people here have mentioned, I think that Apple needs to not scare M$ away from Office:Mac. Non-computer savvy users (read:95% of the human population) don't really understand that documents and applications are separate things, and that documents can be read by more than one program. So, unfortunately, the Mac will be a tough sell to people if there's no 100%-compatible MS Office.

To make matters worse, even if OpenOffice or Appleworks can read existing Office files, there's nothing - *nothing* - to keep M$ from changing the file format (they used to do it with every release!) so that suddenly, everyone's scrambling because the new Dell at work came with Office 2010 preinstalled and we can't read the files all-of-a-sudden. Imagine the crying that would create!

I realize that M$ "responded to user feedback" after Office 1997 and announced that they were going to stop changing the file formats - but truth is stranger than fiction. Access 2000 files are not compatible with Access 2000 SR1 files - files created by two copies of a program that are indistinguishable to most users. Oops!

Obviously, this puts Apple in a position where it needs to slam M$ and kiss their butts at the same time - which is a weird place to be. But, then again, M$ needs Apple to keep from looking like a total monopoly, and what the heck - and Office:Mac sale is still a sale.

athempel
Jul 23, 2002, 05:19 PM
My iBook, which I purchased a bit over 3 months ago, DID come with Appleworks pre-installed, and on the restore CDs.

If you say that they're not bundling it on higher-end Macs, then that's probably because they believe the majority of higher-end Mac users are going to use MS Office anyway. I guess they also believe that lower-end Mac users will be disappointed if they can't immediately switch on their new Mac and make documents.

eirik
Jul 23, 2002, 05:25 PM
I was a bit dissapointed that M$'s Mac Business Unit is not seriously threatening to pull Office from the Mac.

Why? Because then maybe Apple could BUY Microsoft's Mac Business Unit, including Office, Project, Visio, and maybe one or two other applications. I've been hoping for something like this to come out of the anti-trust stuff. This to me is the only sure way to ensure worthy competition.

To ensure compatibility, there would be a standards board that made certain that neither MS nor Apple tweaked formats, API's, or protocols to screw things up in the other OS. Each firm would be required to publish to the other OS the appropriate API's and stuff so that the opposite firm could build appropriate plug-ins for things such as scripting languages. Compatible, compatible, compatible!!! Note, we don't want M$ to make the translation plug-ins for the Mac or visa versa. Why? Why is IE on the Mac so slow? M$ has little to no interest to make it a speed demon.

For Apple, I'd like to see Visual Basic, for example, fully-mapped to AppleScript or something, and perhaps even operate inside of a sandbox. By sandbox, I am referring to the term or concept whereby scripts or applets operate inside a virtual computer within one's computer such that any malicious actions by such code would be safely and securely contained.

I agree with those that say M$ pulling Office out of MacOS would be bad news, if Apple couldn't BUY the rights to M$ applications on the MacOS platform (not permitted to sell apps that run on other platforms).

A lot of wishful thinking true. And, I doubt M$ would be so foolish as to arm Apple with the evidence to persuade the federal and state governments to insist on some kind of a licensing/acquisition by Apple. But, sometimes hope is all we really ever have.

eric_n_dfw
Jul 23, 2002, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by athempel
My iBook, which I purchased a bit over 3 months ago, DID come with Appleworks pre-installed, and on the restore CDs.

If you say that they're not bundling it on higher-end Macs, then that's probably because they believe the majority of higher-end Mac users are going to use MS Office anyway. I guess they also believe that lower-end Mac users will be disappointed if they can't immediately switch on their new Mac and make documents.
Yep - iMac's and iBook's come with the bundles. PowerMac's and PowerBooks do not.

When I bought my G3, there was only one other option, the iMac. I intended on doing some home video editing so the iMac was out of the question. Not everyone who buys a tower is a "high-end user".

Besides, go buy a higher-end system from a PC manufacturer. The more you spend, the more the usually package with it.

Apple was (may still be) giving $100 rebates for Mac purchasers that also bought Office X - that's a good start. (But Office X is STILL too expesive in my opinion)

MOM
Jul 23, 2002, 05:38 PM
First, I would love to dump MS office for AW. But, I have several problems from my side of things. I work as researcher which means I write papers and grants. For papers I use MS word and Endnote. Endnote works with AW, but it doesn't have a plug-in like for Word, which makes things easier. Also, the new version of Endnote has Word templates for many journal styles. For grants I also use these apps but I need to insert graphics in my text document. Also, most grant applications come as word documents with complex tables and other formatting. I've tried to open these in AW but they get completely messed up. Since following the rules is very important in writing a grant, I don't like the idea of spending hours tweaking an imported version of a grant in AW to make it look like the original. Formatting can take hours of your time (as much as I would like a G5-it still doesn't make this sort of thing faster). My point. If a new AW were to directly compete with Office, then it better import documents of all kinds-text/graphics etc-very very very well. If such an AW resulted in the death of Mac Office, it could cause many folks in academics to switch to PC just so they can get there work done.
I do think AW, even in its current form, does the basics very well. I use the drawing program for fixing up most of my charts. I have been using it since the MacDraw days. (BTW, AW doesn't even open MacDraw/ClarisDraw documents!) I would love to switch back to AW for presentations and writing. I'm just concerned the rest of the world won't switch with me.

richard5mith
Jul 23, 2002, 06:09 PM
Getting no software with my Powermac or Powerbook really pissed me off when I saw what the iMac and iBook users were getting. I bought them because they were better machines, not because I was a professional. And I certainly refuse to pay Microsoft's silly Office prices.

Mac Office is a good idea(tm).

As for the person who mentioned Frontpage, Frontpage 2000 is a dream and is the only program I miss on the Mac from the PC. Still easier to use than Dreamweaver which still insists on the floating palette interface which I just hate (which they got rid of on Windows, but not the Mac), and a terrible setup for creating tables. It has some nice points, but for speed and ease of use, give me FP2000 anyday (but not 2002, yuk).

b8rtm8nn
Jul 23, 2002, 06:09 PM
clarisworks became Appleworks but a lot of the developers started GoBe which makes Productive. It was for BeOS and now ships for Windows. I personally would like it to be used for OSX instead of AppleWorks, which I hate.

Also, there is not an Exchange client for OSX. You can IMAP mail with Entourage or run Outlook 2001 in Classis or use a browser or install Remote Desktop Connection and hook up to a PC remotely and run Outlook from there ;)

bretm
Jul 23, 2002, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by richard5mith
Getting no software with my Powermac or Powerbook really pissed me off when I saw what the iMac and iBook users were getting. I bought them because they were better machines, not because I was a professional. And I certainly refuse to pay Microsoft's silly Office prices.

Mac Office is a good idea(tm).

As for the person who mentioned Frontpage, Frontpage 2000 is a dream and is the only program I miss on the Mac from the PC. Still easier to use than Dreamweaver which still insists on the floating palette interface which I just hate (which they got rid of on Windows, but not the Mac), and a terrible setup for creating tables. It has some nice points, but for speed and ease of use, give me FP2000 anyday (but not 2002, yuk).

Isn't Dreamweaver documentation cross-platform? I thought they, like Adboe, make mirror images of their programs for just that reason. Documentation and manuals are the same. So are books at the bookstore. It would be a big hassle if they weren't. That said, how on earth could the windows version not have floating pallettes and the mac version have floating pallettes. That would too big a difference for the documentation to handle. I do know that the latest version lets you work in 2 ways, the new MX palletes and the older DW 4 style pallettes.

elgruga
Jul 23, 2002, 07:23 PM
Come on guys, M$ Office is not the only way to create documents.
AppleWorks is a bit hokey, but if they are going for a big upgrade then I will buy it.

I AM SICK OF M$ - AND THE SLAVISH WAY WE ALL MUST HAVE OFFICE.

Its ridiculous, its like being addicted to crack or something.
A letter is a letter is a letter.

M$ Office X will last for a couple of years, and if M$ pull out, so what?
I still use Delrina daily planner its got to be 10 years old but it WORKS!

Office X is good for at least 5 more years if you want to continue with it. hell, M$ might be gone by then......(I hope)

This notion that we must have upgrades to apps like Office every year is crazy; it works, use it until it doesnt work any more.
Lets stop giving cash to Billy gates.

Enough with this 'upgrade' insanity!

Nebrie
Jul 23, 2002, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by davegutt
Has anyone heard of Open Office? Its for Windows, Linux and OSX, and it is FREE, or 79 w/ support.

OSX will be out in a bit, but Windows version is out. It opens all Office docs, and does a few neat tricks with graphics.

It is the real deal.

http://www.openoffice.org

Dave Gutt

yes we've all heard of it before. It's still got a long way to go to match up to Office. But guess what, businesses are still not using it because it's not Office.

Nebrie
Jul 23, 2002, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by eric_n_dfw
Something that's ticked me off ever since I plopped down $2000+ for my G3/400 is that, short of OS 8.5, it came with absolutely NO software! People paying a lot less for the Bondi-Blue iMac's were getting huge bundles with Quicken, AppleWorks, etc. but we "pros" got zilch. A practice that still goes on to this day. (Although, iMovie, iDVD, iPhoto and iTunes are welcome additions)

Nope, look at the powermac pages, each powermac now comes with a bundle of software.

Heltik
Jul 23, 2002, 08:15 PM
I've only used the demo of Office v.X for OS 10.1...

And it stinks!!!

I still use 2001 in classic, it's the only usable version, even though it still inherits some counter-intuitive features for Windows.

If Apple brought out an enhanced version of Appleworks, that was optimised for use on the Mac (i.e. doesn't have to refresh the text for 12 seconds :)) everytime you save) then I think noone would want M$ Office.

The problem with this of course is that everyone who was Mac Savvy would no longer buy Office from Microsoft... so they would pull the plug... remember the M$ guy said that they would continue to build their products as long as they were profitable even though the agreements had expired...

And although *we* know that Apple's software offerings are better than M$, the rest of the world has adopted and relies on them - so we might not get any new users. What we need to do is increase the installed base by riding the back of M$, then bring out some Killer App... :))

nerveosu
Jul 23, 2002, 09:05 PM
Don't make me seperate you two. Why does apple seem to have Great Relationships and Hate Relationships only.. always to one extreme or another.

I like Office and IE.. they are good products... so why boot microsoft of the island.. and it is such a small island. Besides, Microsoft fixed a ton of OS X bugs for apple and then turned around and put out and excellent Office Product. I don't see any other 3rd party Mac developers come close to that effort.

Apple better watch out or the only companies writting applications for OS X will be Apple.

OS X is sweet,
Bill

IndyGopher
Jul 23, 2002, 09:34 PM
Um.. I love AppleWorks.. but I still have to keep VPC running 10 hours a day because I have to use Access. I cannot believe there is not more demand for Access (or a compatible) for the Mac. It does not matter one whit that FileMaker is TONS better, or that it's cross-platform... we, like many others, use Access because that is what Word From On High says we will use. Give me a way to interact with an Access database on the Mac, and I will be down to firing up one old DOS program (our point of sale system) once or twice a week, and I will be the happiest rodent around.

Peterthehermit
Jul 23, 2002, 09:51 PM
To be honest, I really don't believe apple will directly compete with Office just yet. All signs are indicating that Apple is starting to get more aggressive in gaining market share and an increased user base. The economy is down, fewer people are buying computers. Apple has been heading more in the software direction over the past year with many of the acquisitions they have made. Today's release of Shake for OS X is just one example of that.

Despite all these signs of Apple openly competing for marketshare by using software, Office is sort of the last frontier for Apple. I'm with those that have said that openly competing with office would seriously wound or kill Apple. I would say it would almost be an arrogant and prideful decision by apple, and as the saying goes, "pride goes before the fall."

Apple wouldn't do that right now, Steve Jobs is a smarter businessman than that. At least I hope he is.

joehardy
Jul 23, 2002, 10:58 PM
When I got my first iBook, a 300 MHz blueberry model, it came with AppleWorks 5. I couldn't wait to get a version of Office 98 on it. Shortly thereafter, AppleWorks 6 was released, but it had no translators.
Now, AW 6.2.5 for OS X has very good translators for Word and Excel (several versions of each) and is a much more powerful program than before. With some appropriate improvements, it could get me away from my much more frequent use of Office X.
Unlike basic versions of Office, AW has a database module included, but it needs to be made compatible with either Access or FileMaker.
The word processor module needs additional features, such as grammar checking and the ability to spell check while typing. It's main advantage now is that it doesn't try to tell you how to format, which Word tends to do even with auto-format selections turned off. It also allows very easy table creation and creation of text boxes and spreadsheet boxes right in the document. This came done with Office, but with more steps and more dialog boxes to go through.
The AW presentation module works, but needs a major upgrade to be competitive.
The spreadsheet module is fine for ninety percent of users, but could use a boost in charting features and formulas. It would be nice if it also has a List Wizard like Excel when a full database program isn't needed.
I also use Silk to make AW document fonts look really nice and I'd use AW a lot more if Apple were to really get serious and try to make it a solid competitor to Office.

AudiA4
Jul 23, 2002, 11:41 PM
I can't believe how blinded you dorks are to the significance of this. For MS to drop Office would be yet ONE MORE REASON not to switch to a Mac!!!!!!!! You guys think you could seriously look a prospective "switch" buyer, or worse yet, a client in the face and say "Yeah, MS Office was okay - too bad its gone, but we've got Appleworks! It might open most of those files without too many errors!"

Let me clue you guys in: About 95% of the world's computers (for better or worse - mostly worse) use Windows. And of those, I would guess that about 80% of the use of these machines involves Word, Excel and Powerpoint. If you want to even be in the ballgame of a compelling platform, you need to be completely seamless and conversant with this format. [You think Appleworks is compatible? Ha! It will certainly open the file in a readable form, but most of the formating, not to mention imbedded images and lines are "dropped" in the transition.]

We have an all-Mac platform at our architectural firm. My client's FULLY EXPECT for us to be compliant with file transfers and communication. It HAS to be completely seamless. Office X is an exemplary program that is entirely seamless with the "rest of the computing" world. If this conduit were not available, we would seriously consider switching platforms, AND SO WOULD MANY OTHERS!!!

Again, THERE IS NOTHING TO GAIN by losing this software. You guys know that the viability of the Mac platform has been tenuous for a long time. This would do nothing but deep six the legitimacy of the platform. It would be a disaster.


Note: There's nothing inherently wrong with Appleworks. It's a fine program - and it would be better with enhancements. But Apple had better not make the mistake of positioning it against Office and risking a rift with Office development.

j763
Jul 24, 2002, 01:09 AM
IMO, Apple should develop an Office Suite, but wait for M$ to jump off the island before they boot em off... At the moment, MS could pull office tomorrow and that would stop the switcher campaign dead in its tracks. MS have far too much power over mac platform at the moment and this is something which I think apple should be and is addressing.

beatle888
Jul 24, 2002, 03:52 AM
Originally posted by backspinner
don't want to spoil the joy, but I abandonned AW for the simple reason that it makes ugly documents. it just wont render plain text like letters nice. office does a much better job.

I can see how that would make you wanna use Office instead of AppleWorks
BUT the text render issue you talk about has to be a minor problem.....
Rendering text on a mac is not an issue with any application ive used
on the mac so that tells us it is very possible to creative beautiful crisp
text on the mac..............my point being that the issue will definetly be
resolved if it isnt already.......thats a bet that I'll lay my life on
if I may be so dramatic.

beatle888
Jul 24, 2002, 04:10 AM
Originally posted by AudiA4
I can't believe how blinded you dorks are to the significance of this. For MS to drop Office would be yet ONE MORE REASON not to switch to a Mac!!!!!!!! You guys think you could seriously look a prospective "switch" buyer, or worse yet, a client in the face and say "Yeah, MS Office was okay - too bad its gone, but we've got Appleworks! It might open most of those files without too many errors!"

Let me clue you guys in........


Hehehe.......this guy cracks me up.....LOL.:D

do you really think that I, or apple will ever worry about your windows
world as much as you think we should be....?

we are superior. we dont need your attempt at
enlightenment, with your pearls of wisdom from
your failing world ...hehehe yes I amuse my self.

Oh my god I just read the quoted post again and
it's even funnier the second time you read it....LOL

Jeeze why would a company like apple say duh...ok
go ahead and have the only real option to a line
of integrated office apps and we'll just wait around
until you (windowz) decide to pull the plug on the
mac version and cripple our prosperity.....hehehe

its just so funny....

really though, all kidding aside......apple will take all the steps
they need to in order to be compatible with windows office
and they'll kick some ass instead of having their nads in a vice

jacko21
Jul 24, 2002, 06:15 AM
Comes with "iWord for mac" etc... Most of those dumb ass switchers and other PC users would not know, and would just think "yep, I get Office with a Mac" Make it for windows as well and hand out FREE copies at the apple store, see how MS likes there market undermined, why buy MS office for PC or mac, when iOffice is free from the apple store.

solvs
Jul 24, 2002, 07:13 AM
Originally posted by beatle888


do you really think that I, or apple will ever worry about your windows world as much as you think we should be....?

we are superior. we dont need your attempt at enlightenment, with your pearls of wisdom from your failing world ...hehehe yes I amuse my self.

really though, all kidding aside......apple will take all the steps
they need to in order to be compatible with windows office
and they'll kick some ass instead of having their nads in a vice

Hate to tell you, but there is such a thing as Windows. And Microsoft. And guess what, they're the competition!

Apple can't continue to survive on the Mac faithful alone, especially in this economy. And especially with them p*ssing off as many of us as they have been lately (look around, former zealots are now p*ssed at what's going on. Myself included, and rightly so IMO).

Apple better start worrying about the Dark-Side.

I HOPE you were kidding. But even if you were, others are saying this and meaning it. Just keep sticking yer heads in the sand, maybe M$ will just go away. And maybe someday we'll all be complaining about Apple, the new Evil Empire.

Or saying "Apple who? All hail the Despot, Lord Gates".

Ugh, I suddenly got a chill.

eric_n_dfw
Jul 24, 2002, 08:30 AM
Originally posted by Nebrie
Nope, look at the powermac pages, each powermac now comes with a bundle of software.
While they now include a bunch of shareware like Graphic Converter (anyone know if it registered?), they still don't throw in the commercial package that iMac users get.


From the Apple Store site, iMac page:
Software collection
With the new iMac and Mac OS X you get top-of-the-line software that includes AOL, Quicken 2002 Deluxe, World Book Mac OS X Edition, Otto Matic and Mac OS X Chess.
They also list "Appleworks 6" under the "Built in Apps" section

(Okay - so I got Chess with OS X - whoopie! :rolleyes: )

FattyMembrane
Jul 24, 2002, 02:09 PM
does anyone know how viable the "BigShow" format is as a presentation module? i've checked it out and with a little work, some extra features, and a graphical editor, it could be a sweet little presentation package (and in cocoa too!). i'm just begining to learn programming and am not sure how easy it would be to expand the format into a full fledged presentation app, but it looks promising. its not compatable with powerpoint, but in my opinion, thats a good thing. <http://www.bignerdranch.com/Resources/>

anyway...
as many others have said, the only way apple can expect to survive without ms office is to offer a product with full compatability (i dont use office, but it seems like every buisness on earth does). i've heard that some of the unix office packages offer pretty good support for office, mabye apple should look into basing a product off of openoffice or koffice (similar to chimera's cocoa interface over a unix back end).

bevo
Jul 24, 2002, 02:23 PM
Office is a big deal. M$ office is a key app in the business world and to have it for apple is a big deal. Not having m$ office for the mac would be a serious blow to the macintosh community. Sure apple could write a pretty good office suite, but why?


m$ office, unlike its os, is pretty good. and gives people the option who are used to the pc world to move to the mac world with less worries.

Not having M$ office would be a bad thing.

edenwaith
Jul 24, 2002, 05:00 PM
I was too young to really have paid attention to this at the time, but does anyone remember the "Lemmings" add which advertised MacOffice (I think that was what it advertised, at least). In a book I read, MacOffice became a doomed product, and I'm not even really sure if it ever was released or not. Anyone have any other details about that?

As for my own experiences with AW. Yes, AW can open and save in Word and Excel formats...however, it is not perfect. From my experience, it can open up simple, text-only versions of Word documents fine, but if there are any graphics, they get thrown out and don't import. The one AW spreadsheet I've saved as an Excel file opened up with no problems.

And let's say that Apple pisses MS off, and MS pulls the plug on MS Office. Well, Apple wouldn't be dead, but as others have mentioned, it might put a crimp in some people's shorts when they see that Office isn't available for the Mac, even though there are programs out there which can either do similar things, or even translate some programs (with varying degrees of accuracy, which we can only hope will continually get better). As for myself, this wouldn't directly affect me, since I do nearly all of my word processing in AppleWorks. Now, from my experience with PC versions of Office, it is a decent enough program, but the price isn't justified, in my opinion. If Word was sold as a stand alone product for the Mac for $50, then I might consider buying it, at least for work so when I get .doc attachments, I can open them up with absolutely no problems (MacLink does a pretty decent job for the most part, though). Also consider that the physical material costs of software is pretty cheap. A box, perhaps some documentation (which tends to get more sparse all the time, replaced with on-line documentation), and a CD or few. Heck, there is quite a lot of software which has no real physical attributes and just can be downloaded! This can also lead off into another string about software, pricing, and whether or not it should even be priced. I was reading some arguments about software vs. hardware, and the idea how software (since it is pretty much nothing more than information stored as giant strings of 0's and 1's) should be free.

imacguy
Jul 25, 2002, 12:04 AM
Ok people, after reading through many of these posts I think some things need to get put in persective:

1. The contract with MS is up. When Office stops making them money it they may pull OS X support. This said, it would be completely ignorant of Apple not be be developing a plan if this happens. If you think your boat may spring a leak, you make sure you have a lifejacket and a liferaft on board. That is what Apple appears to be doing.

2. MS owns many shares of Apple stock. I was perplexed that nobody mentioned this fact. If Apple disappeared completely Gates would lose a rather large chunk of change. MS support or no MS support, Gates would still have a large influence in operations because he owns a whole lot of shares of the stock! The only way to get away from the Dark Side would be to not only break ties with Microsoft, but also BUY BACK all of Bill Gates shares. Not an inexpensive proposition by any means. But the main point here is that MS has a vested interest in the success of Apple, until they are no longer shareholders.

3. Like many mentioned, StarOffice has been around for a while now, and as I understand it is compatible with MS Office. Making a product that is completely compatible with MS Office is hardly a pipedream. There is an OS X version for Star Office coming soon, and since it is open source who is to say Apple didn't just use most of that code and just "Apple-ize" it? That would certainly cut down on development time.

4. Many people seem to be basing their Appleworks comments on the current version of Appleworks. An iOffice version would be far superior, hands down. If it wasn't Jobs would get reamed up and down by all the Mac faithful for putting out an inferior product.

5. Apple really turned things around after MS jumped on board. MS saved the sinking ship in the mid-90s and very well may have saved OS X from floundering badly. It was not until Office was released that most other 3rd party companies jumped on board and made committments.

In summary, if the past is any indication Apple becoming isolated from MS may not be a smart business move. But any real Mac fan would LOVE to see it happen.

mmmdreg
Jul 25, 2002, 07:05 AM
the primary school campuses of my school use appleworks on their PC's rather than Office...although it looks a bit bland on that OS...anyway, many Apple users aren't MacAddicts and therefore may not pay any attention if an "iOffice" was released...howvever, it might save a few dollars from entering Microsofts pockets..

SilvorX
Jul 25, 2002, 07:14 AM
Originally posted by mmmdreg
the primary school campuses of my school use appleworks on their PC's rather than Office...although it looks a bit bland on that OS..
used a demo copy of claris works once..didnt really mind it :S lol

the computer store my uncles an accountant for still has a copy of appleworks 5.0 that has been sitting there since '98 (probably) and its still priced as $130 CDN..geesh, if they want to actually sell stuff..then lower prices on 5 year old software :P lol
n i remember seeing frontpage '97 (and frontpage xp came out half a year later) there for $200 cdn or whatever it was originally priced for, and i was like "wtf" cuz they couldve atleast taken $10 off of it since its that old lol

good ol pc stores....

beatle888
Jul 25, 2002, 09:25 AM
Originally posted by solvs


Hate to tell you, but there is such a thing as Windows. And Microsoft. And guess what, they're the competition!




blah blah blah

you really should read my post again
your missing my point hehe oh well.

AmigaMac
Jul 28, 2002, 07:51 PM
>>2. MS owns many shares of Apple stock. I was perplexed that nobody mentioned this fact. If Apple disappeared completely Gates would lose a rather large chunk of change. MS support or no MS support, Gates would still have a large influence in operations because he owns a whole lot of shares of the stock!<<

Get your facts straight... Microsoft no longer owns any stock in Apple, and when they did, it was non-voting stock which meant they had no say in Apple's strategy and how they ran the show! Furthermore when Microsoft owned stock in Apple, it was less than 5% of Apple's net worth, so they didn't even own enough stock to be influentual on what Apple was doing!