US Arabs 'fear for their families'

[Zaid]

BBC - US Arabs 'fear for their families' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3938205.stm)

From the article:

Almost a quarter of those asked said a family member had been insulted because of their race or religion.


Their feeling of vulnerability is made worse because they believe that some Americans do not respect their religion.

Yet - surprisingly, perhaps - just like the population as a whole, they are willing to trade part of their civil liberties if it stops terrorism.


Even so, over 40% of the general population would support the detention of Arabs and Muslims without the evidence to prosecute them.



Has terrorrism just become an excuse for biggots and racists to be openly hostile to arabs and muslims in the US?

If an arab or a muslim was verbally assalted, how seriously would the police consider the matter?

[takao]

why am i suddenly reminded of that (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0133952/) movie ?

it is sad but i am not surprised...

[Zaid]

why am i suddenly reminded of that (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0133952/) movie ?

it is sad but i am not surprised...

Yeh thought of that too when i read the article.

[Bobcat37]

You know, I'm NOT excusing the behavior, I think it is dispicable, but if you look at both sides of the coins, Christians are often treated the same way in Arab coutries. In fact, sometimes instead of merely being harassed, Christians are often killed....

Of course, in America we treasure freedom of religion, so really we should be setting an example for the rest of the world.

[skunk]

Of course, in America we treasure freedom of religion, so really we should be setting an example for the rest of the world.
Indeed. As with Human Rights.

[Zaid]

You know, I'm NOT excusing the behavior, I think it is dispicable, but if you look at both sides of the coins, Christians are often treated the same way in Arab coutries. In fact, sometimes instead of merely being harassed, Christians are often killed....

Of course, in America we treasure freedom of religion, so really we should be setting an example for the rest of the world.

Really?; do you have some evidence of to back up your claim that this is common behaviour in the arab world.

Christian communities have co-existed and continue to co-exist with muslim majorities throughout the arab world and have done so since the begining of islam.

Some arab countries (notably egypt, iraq and syria as well as the palestinians) have very sizable christian communities and these communities have co-existed for over a 1000 years.

The fact that muslim countries have not spoken out against what is happening in Sudan is absolutely abhorant, but this doesn't mean that this kind of behaviour is common practice in the arab world.

Do some research before you make blanket statments of condemnation

and BTW, i wouldn't consider america to be the shining example to the world that you clearly consider it to be.

[Colirio]

Interestingly enough, the leaders of my religion made an announcement about this when the War on Terror was originally announced. In a nutshell, they said that we need to be careful to put the blame where it is due (on the extremists and terrorists) and to NOT allow ourselves to blame muslims in general. Seems like that warning was good foresight on their part.

[skunk]

Really?; do you have some evidence of to back up your claim that this is common behaviour in the arab world.

Christian communities have co-existed and continue to co-exist with muslim majorities throughout the arab world and have done so since the begining of islam.

Some arab countries (notably egypt, iraq and syria as well as the palestinians) have very sizable christian communities and these communities have co-existed for over a 1000 years.
Aren't you forgetting one VERY IMPORTANT country?

[blackfox]

Aren't you forgetting one VERY IMPORTANT country? Does it begin with an "S"?


...and end with "-udan"...good point.

Still, either way, arguing lowest-common-denominators is never very satisfying...

[skunk]

Does it begin with an "S"?


...and end with "-udan"...good point.

Still, either way, arguing lowest-common-denominators is never very satisfying...
Actually, it begins with an I and ends with a Q. Sudan should probably be in the list as well, granted, but when did Sudan last have a Christian Foreign Minister? There has been a Christian community in Iraq since St Thomas, which makes it one of the oldest Christian churches in the world.

[Zaid]

Aren't you forgetting one VERY IMPORTANT country?

Um, no i mentioned iraq, right after egypt and just before syria ;)
skunk, me thinks that prescription needs checking matey :)
Don't forget the churches of Antioch (syria) and Alexandria (Coptic Church in Egypt) were around at about the same time that the church of byzantium (greek orthodox) and the church of rome were founded.

The christian communities in Egypt and syria and iraq all predate islam.

mentioned sudan as well fox, (in that it is abhorrent that muslim countries haven't strongly condemned the attrocities taking place there)

[skunk]

Um, no i mentioned iraq, right after egypt and just before syria ;)
Whoops! :o

skunk, me thinks that prescription needs checking matey :)
The glasses or the drugs? Probably both, actually! :rolleyes:

[blackfox]

On a related note, there was an article in the NYT about the Census Bureau giving detailed information to the Dept. of Homeland Security about the population statistics of Arab-Americans, including detailed information on how many people of Arab backgrounds live in certain ZIP codes, sorted by country of origin.

Spokespeople for the Customs and border protection division of HS, defend the info as used for education for travelers and not for law enforcement. Still, many critics say the information is overly detailed for such a usage, since from a traveler standpoint the use of Arabic or English is the only important distinction needed.

Some see shades of when the Census Bureau used similar information against Japanese-Americans leading up till their internment during WWII.

Take from this what you will...

[Colirio]

Well, to a point, as a matter of national security we HAD to gather certain information by means of profiling. If a man accused of beating someone is described as a white male wearing a top hat and a cape, you don't stop an African man on the corner that's wearing jeans and a t-shirt as matching the description. Profiling to a degree is unavoidable.

However, there is the degree where it passes to harrassment. That is what needs to be evaluated and we need to put more clearly defined limits into place to govern it.

[blackfox]

Well, to a point, as a matter of national security we HAD to gather certain information by means of profiling. If a man accused of beating someone is described as a white male wearing a top hat and a cape, you don't stop an African man on the corner that's wearing jeans and a t-shirt as matching the description. Profiling to a degree is unavoidable.

However, there is the degree where it passes to harrassment. That is what needs to be evaluated and we need to put more clearly defined limits into place to govern it.
Fair enough, but that can often be a open-ended excuse...considering half my family was interned in the camps in WWII, you might understand why I am a little sensitive to this issue...

[Bobcat37]

The fact that muslim countries have not spoken out against what is happening in Sudan is absolutely abhorant, but this doesn't mean that this kind of behaviour is common practice in the arab world.

Do some research before you make blanket statments of condemnation


Yipes, calm down... obviously I hit a cord.

My comment was mainly directed at the atrocities being commited in the Sudan, I guess I should have clarified, please accept my apology (since it seems I offended you) But, that still doesn't mean that Christians aren't killed (killed -> persecuted) daily in other Arab/Muslim countries, but obviously the rate of occurance can vary drastically between countries.

I realize my statement came off as a pretty big "blanket" but it wasn't meant to be, again, sorry, not the best wording.


and BTW, i wouldn't consider america to be the shining example to the world that you clearly consider it to be.

Uhhhh, good for you?

[pseudobrit]

that still doesn't mean that Christians aren't killed daily in other Arab/Muslim countries

I'd like to see the facts to back that statement up.

Many Christian minority communities live peacefully in Arab lands, and I'd like to know if this "killed daily" thing is true or something you pulled out of a hat. Palestine, for example, has a significant percentage of Christians.

[Bobcat37]

Ay, demanding aren't we... Ok, I would like to clarify and replace to phrase "killed daily" to "persecuted daily", still have problems? Well I have some facts for this at least (finding statistics on the number of Christians killed in certain countries throughout the year was getting too difficult, thus the reason for the retraction).

In an interview with United Press International, Marshall drew a grim picture, country by country:

Indonesia: In the eastern islands of this largest Muslim nation in the world, white-uniformed militiamen of Laskar Jihad are forcibly converting Christians to Islam. Marshall said this caused considerable embarrassment to the government, which did not condone such actions.

This campaign has so far cost the lives of 5,000 to 6,000 people, the British-born scholar related. "There are links between Laskar Jihad and top terrorist Osama bin Laden," he said.

Bangladesh: Small radical groups supporting Osama bin Laden have bombed or burned down churches.

Pakistan: Christians depend on the protection of the government as several Muslim leaders have issued fatwas (religious decrees) to kill two Pakistani Christians for every Afghan Muslim who dies in the Anglo-American air raids.

There have also been attacks on Christians along the Afghan border, Marshall told UPI.

Egypt: The government discriminates against Christianity by financing the construction of mosques, while denying permits for the reconstruction of Christian sanctuaries, according to Marshall.

Saudi-Arabia: In the last two months, 15 Christian expatriates have been jailed for worshiping in private homes, and three have been tortured, according to the religious rights organization International Christian Concern.

An information officer at the Saudi embassy in Washington, who declined to give his name, denied this Tuesday: "As far as we know this is not true. We are not aware of any in jail at this time," he said.

No religion other than Islam is allowed in the kingdom, and there is no church. When asked about this, Abdullah M. Khouj, rector of the Islamic Center in Washington, replied, "This is a matter to be negotiated between governments."

Sudan: Some 2 million people, chiefly Christians, have been killed in a civil war fought by the radical Islamic regime in the north of the country against non-Arab population in the south, according to several sources including Marshall and Diane Knippers' Institute on Religion and Democracy.

For several years now, international religious rights organizations have reported that Christians are being raped, tortured to death and crucified.

Somalia: Anybody found out to be a Christian will quickly be beheaded by Muslim vigilantes, Marshall said.

Nigeria: In 12 states, versions of Shari'a law, the Islamic penal code, have been imposed - in violation of the constitution of that African federal republic.

After the imposition of Islamic law, riots ensued killing 5,000 in the city of Kaduna alone, said Marshall. Other reports put the death toll at around 1,000.

In other Muslim countries, such as Algeria, Islamic radicals opposed to the government are killing other Muslims, primarily women and children although they have also murdered priests, nuns and even a bishop, Marshall explained.

Souce http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/10/16/210223.shtml

Killed daily? Maybe not, depends on the country... (I'd say we could at least agree that Christians are more than likely killed daily in Sudan) Persecuted daily in other countries? I'd say so (anyway, the origin of this topic was about Muslims being persecuted in America, not killed, no?)

[pseudobrit]

Killed daily? Maybe not, depends on the country... Persecuted daily, I'd say so (the origin of this topic was about Muslims being persecuted in America anyway, not killed)

Well, you're the one who brought up the killing. Anyway, anywhere you mix religions or races there is going to be persecution. It would take a fool to attempt to argue that blacks are not still persecuted in our nation.

While I feel compassion for any group that is persecuted, I don't hold any one group to a higher sympathetic standard (i.e. just because I'm Catholic doesn't mean I howl when Catholics are targeted and shrug when Muslims are).

[Bobcat37]

While I feel compassion for any group that is persecuted, I don't hold any one group to a higher sympathetic standard (i.e. just because I'm Catholic doesn't mean I howl when Catholics are targeted and shrug when Muslims are).

I agree pseudobrit, which is why when this topic was started I just wanted everyone to think about both sides of the coin (if you wish to look at it that way). Like I said, the fact that Muslims are persecuted here by people is horrible, but no worse, than how Christians are persecuted abroad.

Persecution is persecution is wrong.

[pseudobrit]

I agree pseudobrit, which is why when this topic was started I just wanted everyone to think about both sides of the coin (if you wish to look at it that way). Like I said, the fact that Muslims are persecuted here by people is horrible, but no worse, than how Christians are persecuted abroad.

Persecution is persecution is wrong.

Ah, but I think we can agree that we as a nation should not be settling for equality with Sri Lanka and Indonesia in terms of how we treat religious minorities, no?

After all, how can we expect lesser nations to embrace change when we ourselves cannot enact it?

[Zaid]

Yipes, calm down... obviously I hit a cord.

My comment was mainly directed at the atrocities being commited in the Sudan,


really??, i'm not exactly certain how anyone was supposed to come to that interpretation; lets look at what you actually said:

You know, I'm NOT excusing the behavior, I think it is dispicable, but if you look at both sides of the coins, Christians are often treated the same way in Arab coutries. In fact, sometimes instead of merely being harassed, Christians are often killed....

how is anyone supposed to infer that you meant sudan, when you never even mentioned the place, and instead issued a blanket condemnation of all arab countries?

me thinks that this is nothing more than someone changing their argument whenever challenged because it was never properly thought through


I guess I should have clarified, please accept my apology (since it seems I offended you)

Mate you didn't offend me, i just become pretty passionate when ever i see ill-thought out and silly generalisations masquerading as considered opinion or fact.


But, that still doesn't mean that Christians aren't killed (killed -> persecuted) daily in other Arab/Muslim countries, but obviously the rate of occurance can vary drastically between countries.

You do realise that killed and persecuted are two very different things?

The rise of islamic fundementalism (which is quite a complex phenomenon) within the arab world has meant that the harrassment and discrimination against christian comunities has increased significantly. This is indeed reprehensible. And needs to be pointed out where it occurs. Saudi Arabia being one of the major culprits in this regard.

This most often occurs when you have repressive of dictatorial goverments attempting to win the favour of the muslim majority who have been increasingly bombarded with a fundamentalist outlook.

Outside the arab world, in indonesia, pograms against christians were carried out by fundamentalist muslims during the chaos that followed the collapse of the central govt a few yrs ago.

And outside the muslim world, china is of course a huge violater of religious freedoms.


I realize my statement came off as a pretty big "blanket" but it wasn't meant to be, again, sorry, not the best wording.


Try worst wording possible if that was not your intent. Anyway, if you wanted to point out that religious discrimination or harrassment occurs elsewhere then i'd agree with that.

but getting back to the origional topic,
It may occur elsewhere, but none of those countries professes to enshrine religious freedom or pretends to be a shining becon of the way things should be.


Uhhhh, good for you?
??? you find it inexplicable that someone wouldn't find the us to be the best example for every country in the world to follow?