Get Over It, Already! European News for a Change

[skunk]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3942679.stm
Protest as Hoon visits Gibraltar

A diplomatic row over Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon's visit to Gibraltar has escalated, according to reports. The Spanish media says Foreign Secretary Miguel Angel Moratinos is disappointed Mr Hoon will visit for the territory's 300th anniversary party.

UK military personnel will take part in the ceremonies on Wednesday. The Ministry of Defence is refusing "for security reasons" to confirm whether or not Mr Hoon will travel to the Mediterranean outpost.

Gibraltar has been a source of dispute between London and Madrid since it was seized by Britain in 1704.

Relations 'not easy'

On Friday Mr Moratinos told a news conference it was "not easy to maintain normal relations with Great Britain" because of the Gibraltar issue. Deputy Prime Minister Maria Teresa Fernandez de la Vega said a visit by Mr Hoon would be "inopportune".

The row is the third time in three months Anglo-Spanish relations have been strained over Gibraltar. In June there were protests over a visit by Princess Anne and in July a port call by the British submarine HMS Tireless drew criticism.

The Foreign Office has confirmed British Ambassador Stephen Wright had met Mr Moratinos, but refused to discuss the content of their conversation or reveal whether the meeting had been at Spain's request.

Sir Menzies Campbell, foreign affairs spokesman for the Liberal Democrats said: "As fellow members of NATO and the EU, Spain has no need to react in this way. "By doing so the Spanish Government simply confirms the worst fears and prejudices of those in Gibraltar who are determined that there should be no accommodation with Spain."

The tercentenary celebrations began on Saturday with the arrival of HMS Grafton in Gibraltar following a tour of duty in the Persian Gulf. On Wednesday a military parade will be held and the Royal Navy granted freedom of Gibraltar.
Wouldn't it be interesting if we ALL went back to the political map of 1704? Irish Republicans and Native Americans would be blissful. Half the countries in Europe wouldn't exist, and the African continent would be, well, probably just as wretched as it is now, if Mungo Park is anything to go by.

The possession of Gibraltar was confirmed by the Treaty of Utrecht in 1713, which also confirmed many other world-shaping changes:

Treaty of Utrecht (1713)

The Treaties of Utrecht (April 11, 1713) were signed in Utrecht, a city of the United Provinces. Along with the Treaties of Rastatt and Baden, this concluded the War of the Spanish Succession (as well as Queen Anne's War).

The Treaties of Utrecht confirmed Philip V as the king of Spain, provided that Spain and France remain separate. The Spanish Netherlands, Milan, and Naples were granted to Austria. England was granted possession of the Hudson Bay Territory, Newfoundland, and Nova Scotia. France and the Holy Roman Empire would not settle their differences until 1714, and Spain and Portugal did not cease hostilities until 1715.

The main provisions of the treaties confirmed that Louis XIV's grandson Philip V would remain on the throne of Spain, and retain Spain's new world colonies. Many of Spain's other territories were partitioned out among the allied powers. The Emperor received the Spanish Netherlands, the Duchy of Milan, Naples, and Sardinia. The Duke of Savoy received Sicily and some strips of land in Lombardy. The British received Gibraltar and Minorca, which they had captured during the war.

There were also some colonial provisions pertaining to North America: France recognized British control of the Hudson Bay Territory and Newfoundland and ceded Acadia to the British. France retained Cape Breton Island, the St. Lawrence Islands, and fishing rights off of Newfoundland.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Utrecht_(1713)

I wonder which other bits of the Treaty Spain would like to undo?

[skunk]

Another interesting provision of the Treaty:

And Her Britannic Majesty, at the request of the Catholic King, does consent and agree, that no leave shall be given under any pretence whatsoever, either to Jews or Moors, to reside or have their dwellings in the said town of Gibraltar; and that no refuge or shelter shall be allowed to any Moorish ships of war in the harbour of the said town, whereby the communication between Spain and Ceuta may be obstructed, or the coasts of Spain be infested by the excursions of the Moors.
Considering that the Spanish still hold Ceuta on the Moroccan coast, their insistence on getting hold of Gibraltar seems somewhat hypocritical.

[IJ Reilly]

I wonder which other bits of the Treaty Spain would like to undo?

In the name of international harmony, I'd be willing to give them back Cuba and the Philippines.

In all seriousness, Gibraltar is contiguous territory, and British dominion over it is an artifact of the colonial era, so I can understand why it sticks in Spain's craw. That being said, I don't quite understand why it's become an issue here and now. But then, this isn't exactly a heavily covered story in the US press...

[skunk]

In the name of international harmony, I'd be willing to give them back Cuba and the Philippines.
And Florida? :)

In all seriousness, Gibraltar is contiguous territory, and British dominion over it is an artifact of the colonial era, so I can understand why it sticks in Spain's craw. That being said, I don't quite understand why it's become an issue here and now. But then, this isn't exactly a heavily covered story in the US press...
It's ALWAYS been an issue. As for "colonial era artifacts", where does that leave you lot? :rolleyes:

[IJ Reilly]

And Florida? :)

Oh, why not. It's hot, it's humid, it's a headache.

It's ALWAYS been an issue. As for "colonial era artifacts", where does that leave you lot? :rolleyes:

Having won our independence the hard way?

[pseudobrit]

And Florida? :)

Good God, yes, man! Take her and her totally ****ed up election system!

[skunk]

Having won our independence the hard way?
I was thinking more of the colonial occupation of a previously independent land, rather than the independence of those colonists.... :rolleyes:

[Sayhey]

Is it the Falklands and Gibraltar for ever, Skunk? Maybe a negotiated settlement might be in order for the remains of the British Empire? It seems a rather complicated issue to me, and not nearly as clean cut as you make it sound. I'm for all of us getting out of the Empire business, but the only complication in Gibraltar is the rather major one of the wishes of the people who live there. Negotiation seems the only way.

[IJ Reilly]

I was thinking more of the colonial occupation of a previously independent land, rather than the independence of those colonists.... :rolleyes:

Overuse of rolleyes alert!

I'm sorry, I really don't get your point. Are you implying that if Britain gives Gibraltar back to Spain that Britain ought to also give North American back to...? (Who I'm not sure. The Dutch? The French? Indians?)

[skunk]

I'm sorry, I really don't get your point. Are you implying that if Britain gives Gibraltar back to Spain that Britain ought to also give North American back to...? (Who I'm not sure. The Dutch? The French? Indians?)
No, I'm merely pointing out how absurd it would be arbitrarily to revert to the position in the 17th century. I suppose in those circumstances the American colonists would revert to settlements along the eastern seaboard, peripheral to the Indian states of the interior. It's the same kind of bogus historical fantasy that led to the re-creation of Israel.

[kerb]

The people of Gibraltar are British and feel very much so. A referendum was held and they voted to stay part of Britain.

It's such a small island anyway. Spain shouldn't give two hoots. They should give the Canary Islands back to the natives there, oh wait they slaughtered them. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[IJ Reilly]

No, I'm merely pointing out how absurd it would be arbitrarily to revert to the position in the 17th century. I suppose in those circumstances the American colonists would revert to settlements along the eastern seaboard, peripheral to the Indian states of the interior. It's the same kind of bogus historical fantasy that led to the re-creation of Israel.

I don't think arbitrary is exactly the word you were seeking to describe this situation. "Inconvenient" is probably a better descriptor of the problem of reverting lands won through conquest back to the conquered. The issue of the conquered Indian nations still has not been entirely settled here. No "bogus historical fantasy" is at work -- just the recognition that an injustice was done a long time ago and that we ought to be doing a much as possible to rectify it. Progress doesn't need to be measured in absurd extremes, just at a minimum the willingness to acknowledge that historical wounds will never entirely heal without the application of good will.

[Sayhey]

The people of Gibraltar are British and feel very much so. A referendum was held and they voted to stay part of Britain.

It's such a small island anyway. Spain shouldn't give two hoots. They should give the Canary Islands back to the natives there, oh wait they slaughtered them. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Ok, for the sake of argument, if we send colonists to Guantanamo should we be able annex that part of Cuba if that is their wish?

[takao]

austria demanding back the countries owned in the year 1703 would seriously piss belgium,italy,chez republic,slovakia,slovenia,and poland off (forgive me if i have forgotten a few others) ... ;)

[Don't panic]

It's such a small island anyway. Spain shouldn't give two hoots.
Barring a major earthquake in the last few hours, Gibraltar in not an Island.
It shares a border with Spain.

It should simply be granted full independent status. It doesn't make sense that within Europe there are still "colonies".

[skunk]

I don't think arbitrary is exactly the word you were seeking to describe this situation.
Oh yes it is. Why 1704? Why not 704? Why not 704BC? The Spanish are choosing to ignore "inconvenient" events of their own dreadful colonial history.

[skunk]

Barring a major earthquake in the last few hours, Gibraltar in not an Island.
It shares a border with Spain.
You're right on that one.

It should simply be granted full independent status. It doesn't make sense that within Europe there are still "colonies".
The Spanish won't allow it. Anyway, I see it as a strategic garrison town, not a colony. The same as many US bases around the place.

[kerb]

Barring a major earthquake in the last few hours, Gibraltar in not an Island.
It shares a border with Spain.

It should simply be granted full independent status. It doesn't make sense that within Europe there are still "colonies".


I stand corrected. It's a an area of land that juts out from Spain yet it's never photographed that way. You always see the rock surrounded by lots of water.

Why does it not make sense just in Europe? Why does it make sense for us to have the Falklands? For France to have colonies in Africa and Asia?

[skunk]

For France to have colonies in Africa and Asia?
they don't.

[kerb]

they don't.


ok so I'm about 50 years out of date :p

however the point still stands

Currently, the only remnants of what was once a large empire are four overseas departments - the Caribbean islands of Guadeloupe and Martinique, Réunion in the Indian Ocean, and the small South American mainland possession of French Guiana; 3 overseas territories: French Polynesia, French Southern and Antarctic Lands, New Caledonia; and two territorial collectivities: Mayotte in the Indian Ocean and St. Pierre and Miquelon near Newfoundland.

[skunk]

Why does it make sense for us to have the Falklands?
Why does it make more sense for anyone else to have the Falklands?

[blackfox]

You know, this is all moot.

Obviously, the world and all the land and resources therein, are the property and dominion of the United States of America, by Divine Providence...resistance will result in arbitrary bombing of your country back to the stone age, or possibly a neighboring country or one that has a similar name. Details are for pussys...

[skunk]

You know, this is all moot.

Obviously, the world and all the land and resources therein, are the property and dominion of the United States of America, by Divine Providence...resistance will result in arbitrary bombing of your country back to the stone age, or possibly a neighboring country or one that has a similar name. Details are for pussys...
In that event, most recent UK government instructions say to stay indoors, close all windows and sit under a table. You don't worry me, I'm prepared.

[Zaid]

Spain lost a war and ceded Gibraltar to Britain 300 years ago. Is Spain going to start demanding back their other European possessions? Maybe the Netherlands should just give up now and restore Spanish sovereignty there :)

Of course if Spain is is so insistent on regaining Gibraltar, as it is a contiguous piece of Spain, why don't they return Cuetia to Morocco. Its exactly the same situation in reverse for Spain.

Smacks of hypocrisy to me.

[pseudobrit]

Hmm... if this sets the precedent, I think Turkey, Mongolia, Greece and Italy are due to have some large pieces of land "returned" to them.

Not to mention Poland would cease to exist... again.

[Sayhey]

Of course if Spain is is so insistent on regaining Gibraltar, as it is a contiguous piece of Spain, why don't they return Cuetia to Morocco. Its exactly the same situation in reverse for Spain.

Smacks of hypocrisy to me.

Good point. How about a package deal? Spain gives gives back Cuetia and Britain gives back Gibraltar. While we are at it, the US can give back Guantanamo, let the Puerto Ricans decide if they want independence and finally figure out what to do with Guam and the Virgin Islands! Ahh ... the legacies of colonialism.

[blackfox]

You know perusing this thread and thinking of current events here at home...

You'd think, after all these Centuries, someone would stop and see the possible connections between aggressive Foreign Policy and some pretty messy loose-ends and lasting unintended consequences...guess we are slow learners...

sorry, I am on a rhetorical bent...

[Don't panic]

the gibraltar issue actually opens up a lot of interesting questions.

My rule of thumb for any territorial dispute is self-determination. People in gibraltar voted for not being part of Spain so that should be respected (Although it also depend on how the question was asked, which were the alternatives).
However that holds to a point.

Does ANY territory/people has a right to self-determination? Does any village? How often? What are the pre-requisites? How large and how established? How does that clash with a country's right to integrity?

the US had a civil war [in part] because some of the states wanted to go. and they were well-established, independent entities with a constitutional right to do so.

Just think of how many areas in the world have this sort of problems: Palestine/israel, Northern Ireland, Balkans, Timor, kashmir, kurdistan, south china sea, Guantanamo, Falklands, plus endless islands/border disputes in asia, africa and south america.

BTW, france still has "possessions" around the world (even a couple islands in Canada).

I agree that "colonies" (in all their formats) should not exist, but sometimes it becomes hard to know where to draw the lines (literally ;) ). Back to gibraltar, I find particularly bizarre that it happens between close allies and members of the EC. Maybe they should just turn control directly to Bruxelles

[Don't panic]

Anyway, I see it as a strategic garrison town, not a colony. The same as many US bases around the place.

the British Empire is long gone, Skunk. Get over it already ;)

[skunk]

the British Empire is long gone, Skunk. Get over it already ;)
Agreed. Odds are, the US Empire is going that way too...

[Don't panic]

Agreed. Odds are, the US Empire is going that way too...
Or so some of us wish.
ironically the ultimate words on the subject where from a brit living in the US

Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...

[Neserk]

Agreed. Odds are, the US Empire is going that way too...

You'd think we'd learn from the fall of the Roman Empire, huh?

[takao]

sooner or later every empire (which translates to "Reich" in german) is heading for the closet...
if he can learn one thing from history ,it would be that