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arn
Jul 24, 2002, 12:01 PM
MacBidouille (http://www.macbidouille.com/niouzcontenu.php?date=2002-07-24#3114) posts unconfirmed information on upcoming PowerMacs (english (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.macbidouille.com%2Fniouzcontenu.php%3Fdate%3D2002-07-24%233114&langpair=fr%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools))

- Possible date of August 5th
- 166*2 (333MHz) DDR RAM

Mr. Anderson
Jul 24, 2002, 12:03 PM
additional speculation - could this also be the officially delivery date for Jaguar?

333MHz DDR - nice:D

rugby
Jul 24, 2002, 12:10 PM
Wow, PC2700 DDR would be nice.

I just read the translation and it was quite painful. Anyone here offer a better version?

Wes
Jul 24, 2002, 12:17 PM
If it is going to be August 5th I would buy one straight away. Please Apple let this be true! Everybody, pray everynight.

jelloshotsrule
Jul 24, 2002, 12:20 PM
but if it's august 12th you wouldnt'? ha

the only thing odd about both the 5th and the 12th is that in theory jaguar won't be out then... and normally i would not expect them to ship pmacs, then have to upgrade to jaguar 2 weeks later. but. given the recent moves, i guess it's not impossible.....

so would they just cut the display deal short or continue it for a week with new macs? hmmm....if only i hadn't gotten one last year...

pgwalsh
Jul 24, 2002, 12:26 PM
Well, they could announce them on the 5th and say they'll ship in two weeks or something.

Two Weeks, ta ta two weeks -Total Recall-

Wes
Jul 24, 2002, 12:29 PM
I think they should annouce it on the 5th and say it will be a week or two, or introduce it on the 12th and ship immediately, atleast then it won't be to long. I need to by a new mac before I start school on the 28th, do all any you think it will be available in the UK (London) by then?

iGav
Jul 24, 2002, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
but if it's august 12th you wouldnt'? ha

the only thing odd about both the 5th and the 12th is that in theory jaguar won't be out then... and normally i would not expect them to ship pmacs, then have to upgrade to jaguar 2 weeks later. but. given the recent moves, i guess it's not impossible.....

so would they just cut the display deal short or continue it for a week with new macs? hmmm....if only i hadn't gotten one last year...

Haven't some new macs in the past shipped with the latest OS installed before one could purchase it or D/L it off the Apple site??

Either way... new PowerMacs are coming next month.... either at the start or at the end..... a couple of weeks really doesn't make much of a difference....... :)

iGav
Jul 24, 2002, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by W-_-W
I think they should annouce it on the 5th and say it will be a week or two, or introduce it on the 12th and ship immediately, atleast then it won't be to long. I need to by a new mac before I start school on the 28th, do all any you think it will be available in the UK (London) by then?

If say they were announced on the 12th... you should have no probs getting one before the 28th......

However if it's a completely radical reworking of the PowerMac...... like the TiBook revision over the PowerBook G3..... then you'll probably be waiting for 3 months... heh heh heh... :p :p :p

Seriously though, I use Computer Warehouse for all my Mac buys, and they're pretty good at geting new releases in quickly enough......

crayzaysean
Jul 24, 2002, 12:37 PM
maybe they'll just ship an upgrade coupon with the system allowing all purchasers to go to an apple store and get a free upgrade? Could be b/c they want everyone, even new mac users, to notice the diffs between 10.1 and 10.2.

drastik
Jul 24, 2002, 12:43 PM
I go with an announcement onthe 5th, ship around the 12th. They want to give people time to hear about them and get amped up, not everyone prowls around here looking for news.;)

Although, I wouldn't be surprised if you could get them in an Apple Store earlier than other places. Looks like I'm driving to Atlanta:D

Kid Red
Jul 24, 2002, 12:46 PM
IIRC it takes about 10-14 days to get the GM burned on CDS and pressed, etc. However, I don't think it would take that long to install X.2 on the new machines. So maybe an earlier date for including it on newer machines isn't as difficult as burning and shipping cds?

cyberfunk
Jul 24, 2002, 12:46 PM
Well.. I really hope I can get my hands on one before August 28th.. cause I, too, need one before I go to school..

oh please, oh please, oh please.. :confused: :confused:

bbarnhart
Jul 24, 2002, 12:48 PM
someone say, who heard from a guy on the subway in Kansas City that they would be shipping on July 30th, 2002.

It was just what I heard.

wchamlet
Jul 24, 2002, 12:49 PM
My predictions are that the new Power Macs will be announce Aug. 5th or the 12th. They'll ship in September with the new ATI graphics cards, or at least a build to order option for it. They might even have bundles for Shake or Maya 4.5, since it comes out in Sept. as well.

Either way though, I don't see anyone getting a new Powermac until Sept. But that's just my opinion.

Wes
Jul 24, 2002, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by bbarnhart
someone say, who heard from a guy on the subway in Kansas City that they would be shipping on July 30th, 2002.

It was just what I heard.


Really, my dead grandfather told me they shipped yesterday?


That just seems like a strange source to me. Sorry

BostonMJH
Jul 24, 2002, 01:08 PM
If the new powermacs do ship on the 5th or the 12th, Steve did say that apple will be happy to ship you 10.2 for $19.99.

lordsinforge
Jul 24, 2002, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by Kid Red
IIRC it takes about 10-14 days to get the GM burned on CDS and pressed, etc. However, I don't think it would take that long to install X.2 on the new machines. So maybe an earlier date for including it on newer machines isn't as difficult as burning and shipping cds?

Except for the fact that they would have to include 10.2 in the install and restore cds for the new pmacs if they shipped with 10.2

LS

djniche
Jul 24, 2002, 01:33 PM
I went and tested jaguar on the new 17" imac and asked one of the employess if it would be installed - and he said for sure. I'm getting a 17 imac when they come out next week. I think the same will go with the powermac - they will for sure have jaguar installed. Wouldnt make sense to ship PM with older vesion of MaC Os X

btw jaguar is fast!!!!! very fast!!

bidge
Jul 24, 2002, 01:42 PM
Gayle the iPod Administrator at apple support said that the firmaware would be available for download at the beginning of August and Apple are really pushing the calendar and iCal. Won't this mean though that we can't use iCal without 10.2, what would be the point in releasing iCal/firmware upgrade without 10.2.

Should be interesting.......

primalman
Jul 24, 2002, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by bbarnhart
someone say, who heard from a guy on the subway in Kansas City that they would be shipping on July 30th, 2002.

It was just what I heard.

You mean the subway in KC that goes under the Missouri River or the Kansas River, or the one that runs throufh Arrowhead Stadium and drops you off on the 50 yerd line?

ImAlwaysRight
Jul 24, 2002, 01:54 PM
Look at the source. Lately Think Secret has been right on (look at their MWNY predictions -- they were dead on). I'm not sure of the track record of that French site.

Also, considering that Think Secret says Aug 13 for new Powermacs, and the current PowerMac/display rebate promotion runs through August 12, I'm putting my money on August 13 as the intro date for the new PowerMacs. Plus it gives Apple more time to include OS 10.2 on the new PowerMacs, which I'm sure they will.

Let's just see if Think Secret or any other rumor site gives us more info...

gotohamish
Jul 24, 2002, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by W-_-W
I think they should annouce it on the 5th and say it will be a week or two, or introduce it on the 12th and ship immediately, atleast then it won't be to long. I need to by a new mac before I start school on the 28th, do all any you think it will be available in the UK (London) by then?

I'm an account holder at Jigsaw Systems in the UK and they usually get offshore deliveries before the Apple Store UK due to location, my Powerbook G4, aside frm all delays, was in the top five delivered in the UK thanks to Jigsaw!

H

ShaolinMiddleFinger
Jul 24, 2002, 02:21 PM
I'll buy the new powermacs (if they ever come out) when it ships with 10.2

drastik
Jul 24, 2002, 02:28 PM
man, I want one so bad!

The PMacs in the apple store are taking a few days to ship riht now. I think that they will announce on Aug. 5, assuming that anyone ordering after August 5th is going to get bumped to the new systems available on the 12th because of shipping time anyway, so no hesitance for ordering.

esome
Jul 24, 2002, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by Kid Red
IIRC it takes about 10-14 days to get the GM burned on CDS and pressed, etc. ...

Build 6C101 just went out to developers. Presumably Apple then waits at least a couple days to get some feedback and then takes at least a day or two to make fixes where needed for the next build. If we're optomistic and assume that this is the last pre-GM build then we're still looking at around 5 or more days before GM would be ready for press. Say we're even more optomistic and figure the shorter 10 days for the press/packaging time. That puts us at August 8 at the earliest. I don't see how 10.2 could ship before Aug 12th.

drastik
Jul 24, 2002, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by esome


Build 6C101 just went out to developers. Presumably Apple then waits at least a couple days to get some feedback and then takes at least a day or two to make fixes where needed for the next build. If we're optomistic and assume that this is the last pre-GM build then we're still looking at around 5 or more days before GM would be ready for press. Say we're even more optomistic and figure the shorter 10 days for the press/packaging time. That puts us at August 8 at the earliest. I don't see how 10.2 could ship before Aug 12th.

From what I've read, 101 is pretty tightly put together, so I would guess this is the end before pressing. As far as the GM goes, I don't know, but I would bet a little financial boost might keep somewhere open 24/7 to get it done more quickly. I'm still banking on the announcement on the 5th:D

kcmac
Jul 24, 2002, 02:44 PM
quote:

Originally posted by bbarnhart
someone say, who heard from a guy on the subway in Kansas City that they would be shipping on July 30th, 2002.

It was just what I heard.




You mean the subway in KC that goes under the Missouri River or the Kansas River, or the one that runs throufh Arrowhead Stadium and drops you off on the 50 yerd line?


Primalman, you beat me to it. Actually, someone did try to use this system to sneak into Arrowhead at the Michael Jackson concert many years ago. Of course, it is called the SEWER system by us in Kansas City. :D

AppleJunkie
Jul 24, 2002, 02:53 PM
Hello?? Apple said plain and clear at the expo that 10.2 will not be shipping until August 24. They are taking preorders though. Why would they change their proposed shipping date?

thedude
Jul 24, 2002, 03:02 PM
I hate to do this to everyone, but it's something that's been bugging me.

why all the cooling? g4's don't put off that much heat so the fan and the kitchen sink....er...heatsink seem like overkill.

maybe because there are more procs going in there...It kinda seemed like there would be room under that block to put 4 procs

I don't think it's likely, but possible. Apple asked what the 3d community wanted. A rackmount server (x serve) and dual and quad proc machines. Well apple delivered on the x serve.

hmmm...

:p

srobert
Jul 24, 2002, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by rugby
Wow, PC2700 DDR would be nice.

I just read the translation and it was quite painful. Anyone here offer a better version?

I'm french canadian... here is an attempt and translating it by myself:

* * * * *

Some more speculations on the upcoming G4:

Some may consider the following as rumors, others as information.
If you're against uncomfirmed information, please don't read any further!

- There is a good chance that the new powermacs will be available (or annouced) on august 5th!

- They'll be sporting, as expected, a DDR memory bus. That DDR bus won't be a 133x2 but a 166x2! Memory transfers will be made at 333MHZ.

* * * * *

End of translation.

Ok, my english is far from perfect but I hope it is at least better than a lousy translation software. If you want me to correct anything, private message me and I'll edit this post.

Hope this helps.

Sebastien
(Montreal, Canada)

dongmin
Jul 24, 2002, 03:03 PM
where do people get these dates?

The only thing solid I see is the end date for the Crystal Clear Savings promo. It doesn't make sense for the new powermacs to overlap with this promo.

So I say, they'll announce it on the 13th and start taking orders with the ship date being the 24th or so when Jag ships.

Kashchei
Jul 24, 2002, 03:06 PM
Here's the requested translation from MacBidouille:

Certains considèreront ce que ce qui suit plus bas comme des rumeurs, d'autres comme des informations.
Si vous êtes contre les informations non confirmées, n'allez pas plus loin !

- Il y a une forte probabilité que les nouvelles machines pro soient mises sur le marché (ou présentées) le 5 Août !
- Elles auront, comme on peut s'y attendre un bus mémoire DDR. Ce Bus DDR ne sera pas un 133*2, mais un 166*2 ! Les échanges mémoire se feront donc à "333Mhz".

Some people will consider what follows a rumor, others a fact. If you don't like unconfirmed information, don't read any further!

-There is a strong probability that the new pro machines will be released on august 5.
-These machines will have, as one could expect, a DDR memory bus. This bus will not be 133x2, but 166x2! The memory exchanges will therefore be at 333 Mhz.

rugby
Jul 24, 2002, 03:07 PM
srobert-

thanks for the translation.

AppleJunkie
Jul 24, 2002, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by dongmin
where do people get these dates?

The only thing solid I see is the end date for the Crystal Clear Savings promo. It doesn't make sense for the new powermacs to overlap with this promo.

So I say, they'll announce it on the 13th and start taking orders with the ship date being the 24th or so when Jag ships.

This is where you preorder it:
http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/82/wo/ncGb01oQtfXNKo24OK/0.3.0.3.34.81.0.JaguarPromo.0.0.2.0.3.1.1.0?67,81

Also when you add it to your order it says the shipping date is August 24.


There, done!

Sayer
Jul 24, 2002, 03:16 PM
This could only mean they will announce the new models and have them available "real soon" after the announcement.

Shake will probably want to run on a spiffy ultra-fast new G4 (compared to what came before). I doubt any of these announcements software-wise are coincidental.

The hardware will start trickling in as Shake and Jaguar are set to go. Apparently getting Xserve production going was harder than anyone expected (reports of seriously damaged Xserves in undamaged boxes, bad components out of the box etc.).

Over Achiever
Jul 24, 2002, 03:22 PM
Also when you add it to your order it says the shipping date is August 24.

uuuh...it says estimated shipping date...nothing set in stone;)

---
Hey! My first post!!!

AppleJunkie
Jul 24, 2002, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by Over Achiever


uuuh...it says estimated shipping date...nothing set in stone;)

Well that would knock the pants off of me, if my preorderd copy of 10.2 showed up unexpectedly.

Joshlew
Jul 24, 2002, 03:31 PM
Do you think there's any chance of dual 1.6Ghz G4's?
Please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, PLEASE!!!!!!!

drastik
Jul 24, 2002, 03:42 PM
In light of the fact that 106 was released today, I take back my comment about 101 being the end, I was wrong, I admit it, but I'm thrilled anyway.

The ship date is the 24th, but some of the ideas here are that new hardware will have 10.2 anyway, even if everyone else can't get it.

This makes some since if you look at the uproar over paying for 10.2. If people are given a chance to work on ans see 10.2 really running, I think the feature set will put all complaints to rest. A lot of cash went into this and I promise you all that it will show in the final product. Maybe this is a way of ramping up orders for the finished piece when it ships, not to mention getting people into the new hardware a litlle more quickly.:D

ImAlwaysRight
Jul 24, 2002, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by Joshlew
Do you think there's any chance of dual 1.6Ghz G4's?

I think the chance of 1.6GHz is slim to none.

1.2GHz at least, would be nice to get up to 1.4GHz, but even that may not be possible yet.

Mr Maui
Jul 24, 2002, 04:03 PM
Wouldn't it be best to just wait till Apple "actually" announces it. After all, I believe I started seeing articles about the "upcoming" G5 processor in September of 1999.

trilogic
Jul 24, 2002, 04:09 PM
I have an idea how much faster a 1Ghz G4 compared to a 400Mhz is.

But what does it mean to get 333MHz DDR Ram and faster Speedbus.

Can anyone provide some information about that?

ryanide
Jul 24, 2002, 04:23 PM
I called the Apple Store and they told me that all systems shipping after the MWNY announcement will include a free upgrade to 10.2 when it is available. So, it really doesn't matter if 10.2 is pre-installed or not - it is included.

Postal
Jul 24, 2002, 04:50 PM
trilogic:

It's fairly simple. Think of it in terms of cars on the road (as I'm prone to doing often). The CPU is the car itself: all other things being equal, we know that a Lotus Elise can beat out a Honda Civic, for example, just as a G4 chip can beat out a similarly-clocked Pentium 4.

However, for that to happen, you have to have the room to flex all that power. A Lotus Elise might have a lot of potential, but you can't use much of that potential if you're stuck in heavy traffic. The same goes for the clock speed of the RAM and system bus on a computer. The faster the memory and the system bus on a computer, the more room the CPU has to flex its muscles. Obviously there's a limit to the effectiveness (a given CPU can only put out so much data), but it can really help.

Right now the G4 chip is fairly limited by the RAM and system bus it has to use. A PowerMac or PowerBook currently uses 133 MHz for both the RAM and the system bus, which isn't really enough; the whole reason why recent models of those computers have 1 MB or more of that L3 cache is because they can't pass data through quickly enough otherwise. Going to DDR RAM and a faster system bus would let the CPU operate more smoothly, without having to resort to L3 cache as much (if at all).

Rocketman
Jul 24, 2002, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by bidge
Gayle the iPod Administrator at apple support said that the firmaware would be available for download at the beginning of August and Apple are really pushing the calendar and iCal. Won't this mean though that we can't use iCal without 10.2, what would be the point in releasing iCal/firmware upgrade without 10.2.

Should be interesting.......

Can an iPod successfully store firewire webcam video without (an additional) computer?

And can it also more likely store DV camera images/footage?

Rocketman

I want to launch some stuff.

Rocketman
Jul 24, 2002, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by AppleJunkie
Hello?? Apple said plain and clear at the expo that 10.2 will not be shipping until August 24. They are taking preorders though. Why would they change their proposed shipping date?

Which means they MIGHT announce Powermacs before then but will not ship before then.

Rocketman

Rocketman
Jul 24, 2002, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by Joshlew
Do you think there's any chance of dual 1.6Ghz G4's?
Please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, PLEASE!!!!!!!

No.

MidnightPoser
Jul 24, 2002, 05:07 PM
I think that Apple need to get al diehard mac-grassroot to start talking about anything else than writing petition about the price for ".Mac" - that´s the reason we will se the new G4-towers anounsed earlyer than expected.

- Midnightposer ( Sweden )
+++

trilogic
Jul 24, 2002, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by Postal
Going to DDR RAM and a faster system bus would let the CPU operate more smoothly, without having to resort to L3 cache as much (if at all).

And if I wan't to compare the speed gain of a faster sysbus and ddr ram. Could I say that for example a 800Mhz G4 CPU on the faster board would be as fast as a 1Ghz G4 CPU on the older and slower board?

Aren't there any benchmark comparison of the new and old powerbook after apple changed the busspeed from 100 to 133?

ImAlwaysRight
Jul 24, 2002, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by arn
MacBidouille (http://www.macbidouille.com/niouzcontenu.php?date=2002-07-24#3114) posts unconfirmed information on upcoming PowerMacs (english (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.macbidouille.com%2Fniouzcontenu.php%3Fdate%3D2002-07-24%233114&langpair=fr%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools))

- Possible date of August 5th
- 166*2 (333MHz) DDR RAM

Remember, folks, this is a rumor. Don't go out and buy your 333Mhz DDR RAM just yet...

although I did find a price of $169 for 512MB, and $329.99 for 1GB sticks (new PowerMacs are suppose to take 1GB sticks)

http://www.18004memory.com/category.asp?catid=12 (http://)

If you can't tell, I'm getting prepared.

eric_n_dfw
Jul 24, 2002, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by Mr Maui
Wouldn't it be best to just wait till Apple "actually" announces it. After all, I believe I started seeing articles about the "upcoming" G5 processor in September of 1999.
Uhhhh - no.


Welcome to MacRumors.com

Postal
Jul 24, 2002, 05:34 PM
trilogic:

I don't have benchmarks myself, but I know I've read them. A PowerBook at the same clock speed, but with a faster bus, is supposed to be significantly faster. Many of these comparisons are hard to arrange due to the main clock speed usually going up at the same time as the system bus speed is increased.

Rocketman
Jul 24, 2002, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by trilogic


And if I wan't to compare the speed gain of a faster sysbus and ddr ram. Could I say that for example a 800Mhz G4 CPU on the faster board would be as fast as a 1Ghz G4 CPU on the older and slower board?

Aren't there any benchmark comparison of the new and old powerbook after apple changed the busspeed from 100 to 133?

A simpler way to think about it is this. For a decade the bottleneck has been the processor. Then when the G4/Pentium came out it became the system bus. That bottleneck is VERY significant.

By increasing system bus from 133 to 333 it lets G4 and G5 processors "floor it" occasionally.

Hypertransport will allow 4xG5 to floor it alot someday.

Rocketman

Hey can I use Jaguar Airport software base station on my NEW DDR G4 and talk to my TiG4?

ddtlm
Jul 24, 2002, 06:31 PM
And for today's dose of harsh reality, I would like to point out that there is no reason outside of the usual baseless rumors to believe that the G4 itself will be connected to a DDR front side bus. I've said it before, and I'd like to repeat that it is highly unlikely that Apple made the Xserve's chipset which uses DDR RAM and a SDR FSB for only the Xserve. They are too small of a company to waste resources designing a chip with such a limited market, and so I am pretty sure (but obviously not 100% sure) that the upcoming G4's will not have full CPU-to-RAM DDR connections, only DDR-to-chipset. This is better than nothing, but will yield only 0% to 5% performance boost to processing speed, based on a similar chipset made by VIA that worked with a Pentium III (SDR FSB, DDR RAM).

Don't get yourselves worked up too much over rumors. The real world can be harsh.

The good side of things is that the G4 is not generally bound by the memory/FSB speed. Why do I say that? Because my 1.53ghz Athlon also runs on PC133 RAM, and is distinctly faster than my 800mhz G4-MP. (As in, it is possible to go a lot farther with PC133 than we have already.) Sure, some tasks really benefit from super bandwidth, but general usage and games (generally) do not.

mmatlock
Jul 24, 2002, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by Kid Red
IIRC it takes about 10-14 days to get the GM burned on CDS and pressed, etc. However, I don't think it would take that long to install X.2 on the new machines. So maybe an earlier date for including it on newer machines isn't as difficult as burning and shipping cds?

The OS CD will ship with the new Macs so it's more than installing the OS on the new machines. The CD must be included, I think. Apple would not ship machines without CD. Also, burning CDs is probably the least of Apple's problems in getting a new machine ready to ship.

mmatlock
Jul 24, 2002, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by ddtlm
And for today's dose of harsh reality...

It sounds logical to me. Also, it sounds like something Apple would do. I don't think we will be really excited about the new Macs. It would be great if we were, though.

Cappy
Jul 24, 2002, 06:51 PM
Originally posted by ddtlm
The good side of things is that the G4 is not generally bound by the memory/FSB speed. Why do I say that? Because my 1.53ghz Athlon also runs on PC133 RAM, and is distinctly faster than my 800mhz G4-MP. (As in, it is possible to go a lot farther with PC133 than we have already.) Sure, some tasks really benefit from super bandwidth, but general usage and games (generally) do not.

It depends on the apps and games. An example would be that Quake III and games using its engine tend to always get faster framerates in the Windows world with faster ram like rambus and the faster varieties of ddr.

barkmonster
Jul 24, 2002, 07:04 PM
Once G4s are using DDR SDRAM, not using the L3 cache would have less of a speed hit than the huge one it has now, On paper it looks like it might benefit from a L3.

Example

currently we have this arrangement on the G4 :

CPU : 1Ghz
L1 : 32K + 32K @ 1Ghz
L2 : 256K @ 1Ghz
L3 : 2Mb @ 500Mhz (DDR 250Mhz x 2)
FSB : 133Mhz
RAM : 133Mhz SDRAM

Picture This if the L3 cache remains :

CPU : 1.4Ghz
L1 : 32K + 32K @ 1.4Ghz
L2 : 256K @ 1.4Ghz
L3 : 2Mb @ 700Mhz (DDR 350Mhz x 2)
FSB : 166Mhz
RAM : 333Mhz (DDR 166Mhz x 2)

The L3 would still offer over twice the throughput of the main system RAM and would more than likely add a significant performance boost. Also, I'm sure I've read that the 7470 uses a 512K L2 like the chip in the new iBook. Barefeats have done a shoot out between the eMac, iMac, TiBook and iBook. In some of the tests the iBook won by 15 - 28%

I think if we get a 1.4Ghz G4 with a faster FSB and DDR we'll be looking at some pretty powerful systems from Apple very soon.

mmatlock
Jul 24, 2002, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by Mr Maui
Wouldn't it be best to just wait till Apple "actually" announces it. After all, I believe I started seeing articles about the "upcoming" G5 processor in September of 1999.

If everyone waited this thread wouldn't exist and everyone would have to get back to real work. That's no fun!:)

underclocker
Jul 24, 2002, 07:06 PM
DDR 333 makes a huge differnce in performance. I recently upgraded my pc from the KT133 chipset to KT333. I used the same cpu, and I was able to score 1200 points higher on the cpu test in pcmark 2002. DDR 333 would make the G4 dramatically faster.

ddtlm
Jul 24, 2002, 07:18 PM
First, I'd like to thank people for not flaming me for my last post, which is sometimes not a sure thing when being critical of the future of G4's on this forum.

underclocker:

Interestingly, the processor and chipset you mentioned already had a DDR FSB between them along with PC133 RAM hanging off the chipset, so going to a new chipset with DDR RAM made for DDR straight from the CPU to the RAM itself. This is not the same situation as the Xserve chipset, which I strongly suspect will turn up in the new G4 towers.

barkmonster:

Your point could only be true if the G4's used DDR RAM *and* a matching DDR FSB, but as I've said I find that highly unlikely.

In any case, the L3 cache is SRAM and not SDRAM, which means that it is both more expensive and lower latency. Additionally, it's memory controller is directly built into the G4, as opposed to system SDRAM, where the signals first need to travel down the FSB to even reach the controller in the chipset.

ddtlm
Jul 24, 2002, 07:29 PM
Anyway, to continue my attack on what I see as unrealistic expectations, I would like to point out that the "Apollo" G4 was released in only the most recent line of G4 towers about 6 months ago. It is highly unlikely that Apple would use a type of CPU for only a single tower generation, and it is even less likely that Moto would bother to make a chip with such a short useful life. The previous G4 generation was used for about one year, and those before that were used even longer. Since Apollo does not support a DDR FSB (although I hear it supports 166mhz), it is highly unlikely that we will see DDR FSB's in the upcoming G4 towers.

Taken with the fact that Apple is unlikely to have made the Xserve shipset for a tiny few thousand computers that have thus far shipped, it seems very very apparent that there will be no DDR FSB on the upcoming G4 towers.

sparkleytone
Jul 24, 2002, 07:45 PM
i dont remember where the benchmark was posted but i remember it like a bad rash. the xserve SINGLE CPU smokes the DUAL-GHZ powermac. the main reason for this is indeed the ddr addition. link me if someone knows where it is.

avkills
Jul 24, 2002, 07:53 PM
How does one know if the Xserve does indeed support DDR RAM to processor and Apple is just waiting to plop in a new chip. A lot of people would who already bought would be miffed, but it could happen. Highly doubtful, but not out of the question. I say this since my B&W tower was able to accept a G4. It is possible.

-mark

skunk
Jul 24, 2002, 08:03 PM
Just above the article about the new PM G4s there is another one which says that someone in the States has reported getting a new TiBook with a strange motherboard which has SPACE FOR A SECOND PROCESSOR! Only one was fitted, though. Now that sounds VERY promising....I saw that Xserve comparison too. I think you can get a link to it from Apple's site: they were only too happy to link it!

peterh
Jul 24, 2002, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by barkmonster
...

Picture This if the L3 cache remains :

CPU : 1.4Ghz
L1 : 32K + 32K @ 1.4Ghz
L2 : 256K @ 1.4Ghz
L3 : 2Mb @ 700Mhz (DDR 350Mhz x 2)
FSB : 166Mhz
RAM : 333Mhz (DDR 166Mhz x 2)

The L3 would still offer over twice the throughput of the main system RAM and would more than likely add a significant performance boost. Also, I'm sure I've read that the 7470 uses a 512K L2 like the chip in the new iBook. Barefeats have done a shoot out between the eMac, iMac, TiBook and iBook. In some of the tests the iBook won by 15 - 28%

I think if we get a 1.4Ghz G4 with a faster FSB and DDR we'll be looking at some pretty powerful systems from Apple very soon.

Quite right, I wrote a little Java code that performs some matrix math on two random square matrices. Now I know Java is not the best code to do math on, and it is unfriendly to PowerPC chips (no FMA among other things), but I know it best, and the code is simple enough I don't need a compiler on each machine that I want to test. Anyhow log story short, for a certain matrix size, I don't remember exactly what size. The code runs about 20% faster on the 700MHz iBook, than on the 800MHz TiBook. Once you exceed the 512K L2 though the G$ wins easily. Also remember that double FP multiplication on the 750 has a base latency of 4 and a throughput of 2, on the MPC7455 it is 5:1, So if you can keep the CPU fed, one should be able to do a lot more matrix multiplication in a given amount of time on a MPC7455 than on the PPC750FX. I haven't looked into cache latency for the 750FX, but on the MPC7455, the latency for data retrieval from the caches are as follows (add one cycle for FP data).
L1 3 cycles,
L2 9 cycles, including L1 miss and L2 find,
L3 ~38 cycles, including L1 miss. The L2 and L3 lookups are performed simultaneously. Now I can't imagine even DDR memory being anywhere near this, for one looking up something in 2MB of memory is a lot simpler that finding it in 2GB of memory. Also since the L2 lookup is 4 times faster than the L3 if one can keep the data in the L2 they can get a serious speedup in the program execution. Also if you can do a non-dependent multiply & add, try ordering your program top take advantage of the FMA functions in the PPC ISA.

As for the XServe chipset. Since I have never seen any of the tech specs on it, I don't know if it is strictly limited to SDR FSB. My guess is that Apple made it DDR capable. Since the MPC7455 won't do DDR you can't tell by the XServe implementation whether or not the chipset is capable of full DDR implementation. If you know of the definitive answer please post it and the reference. Hell given the fact that Apple, at least for a while, showed interest in using the POWER4, the XServe chipset may even be able to handle a sing chip POWER4 module if one were ever available.

skunk
Jul 24, 2002, 08:10 PM
Nobody has yet explained what all that cooling power is for in the "leaked" pics, have they?

oldMac
Jul 24, 2002, 08:47 PM
Hmm...

Maybe it's just about moving more air as opposed to moving it faster. Moving a lot of air slowly will result in the same airflow as moving a little air quickly.

Maybe the goal is a quieter machine? Of course, a lot of the noise is coming from the drives these days, so they would need to sound-proof the case a bit better, too.

gopher
Jul 24, 2002, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by ryanide
I called the Apple Store and they told me that all systems shipping after the MWNY announcement will include a free upgrade to 10.2 when it is available. So, it really doesn't matter if 10.2 is pre-installed or not - it is included.

AHEM!!!!

How is this "free" possible if:

http://www.apple.com/macosx/uptodate/

says:

" Apple would like to give you the opportunity to upgrade to Mac OS X v10.2 “Jaguar.” Customers who purchase a qualifying new Macintosh computer on or after July 17, 2002, that does not have Mac OS X v10.2 “Jaguar” included can upgrade to Mac OS X v10.2 “Jaguar” for US$19.95.* See “Terms and Conditions” for program details."

Obviously there will be some machines that won't have a free 10.2 after Macworld NY. July 17th was Macworld NY. Your statement makes no sense sir. You sure you weren't talking to the Apple Store in Washington Apple country?

SPG
Jul 24, 2002, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by ddtlm
Anyway, to continue my attack on what I see as unrealistic expectations, I would like to point out that the "Apollo" G4 was released in only the most recent line of G4 towers about 6 months ago. It is highly unlikely that Apple would use a type of CPU for only a single tower generation, and it is even less likely that Moto would bother to make a chip with such a short useful life. The previous G4 generation was used for about one year, and those before that were used even longer. Since Apollo does not support a DDR FSB (although I hear it supports 166mhz), it is highly unlikely that we will see DDR FSB's in the upcoming G4 towers.

Taken with the fact that Apple is unlikely to have made the Xserve shipset for a tiny few thousand computers that have thus far shipped, it seems very very apparent that there will be no DDR FSB on the upcoming G4 towers.

Second guessing Apple's strategies is pretty pointless, but since we're all avoiding real work at the moment...
Yes any company would like to get the most mileage out of their products, but at a certain point they have to throw out the old and introduce new lines to get everyone back to buying from them. Apple is well past this point. There are a lot of people on this board and even more out there pointing and clicking away on older G4's that were purchased when the G4 was the quantum leap in technology that everyone had to have. All these machines are getting a little long in the tooth, and the owners aren't quite ready to invest in a marginally better G4, although they would be thrilled to buy a new G5. Since the G5 ain't coming in the next few months ole Stevie is watching the sales of G4's drop and feels he has to do something to get the Power users to give him more cash. You never know wha ta cornered animal will do, and hopefully Steve will greenlight whatever it takes to make this new G4 the most kickass appealling credit card magnet on the block...let's hope.

Faeylyn
Jul 24, 2002, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by skunk
Nobody has yet explained what all that cooling power is for in the "leaked" pics, have they?

I don't recall the photos showing the cooling power at all. The original message described the cooling power, and the PDF may have mentioned it. But I saw only one little fan in the photos.

gbojim
Jul 24, 2002, 09:30 PM
Originally posted by Postal
trilogic:

... Going to DDR RAM and a faster system bus would let the CPU operate more smoothly, without having to resort to L3 cache as much (if at all).

Actually you have that part backwards. The L3 cache is far faster than DDR-SDRAM. The more cache the better for larger apps.

Interestingly, the processor and chipset you mentioned already had a DDR FSB between them along with PC133 RAM hanging off the chipset, so going to a new chipset with DDR RAM made for DDR straight from the CPU to the RAM itself. This is not the same situation as the Xserve chipset, which I strongly suspect will turn up in the new G4 towers.

Has anyone taken an XServe apart yet to see what processors are in them? i.e 7455 or maybe something newer. I know ours are providing awesome performance but there is no way I'm going to pull the fans and heat sinks to see what model of proc is under there.

DeusOmnis
Jul 24, 2002, 09:40 PM
Concerning the DDR connection between the ram and the cpu:

Apple doesnt need to invent this technology, it already exists in PC's. To copy someone else's deal is not exactly that hard. Apple wants to be competedative with the PC market, in order to do that their systems NEED to have the newest technologies and best parts. This is why a mac is more expensive than a PC. PM's come with a t base 1000 Ethernet port. NOTHING runs that fast, Apple is just trying to be the best, and in doing that the cost of the computer goes up a couple hundred dollars.

As far as the turbine fan:

I helped my friend build his PC yesterday with his GeForce 4 Ti, 1800 Athalon, half gig of DDR SDRAM, etc. The thing had a 340 Watt powersupply because it took <span style="font-size: 26pt; color: red; weight: bold;">FIVE</span> fans. The G4 heat sinks dont even have fans on them, but the GPU's sure do. If apple doesnt want thier chips to run hot (thus slow) then they need to have some air movement. The new chips are going to be running alot of power through them.

sparkleytone
Jul 24, 2002, 10:17 PM
actually the fact that it exists in PC's means absolutely NOTHING when it comes to the mac. The architecture is completely different and therefore requires a completely different approach to chipset design. The entire bus architecture and communication scheme from peripherals to processor and back have to be created from scratch and have nothing in common with x86 except functioning principles.

djwoolf
Jul 24, 2002, 10:24 PM
Whats up with this french site... Ive never even heard of it until the photos and the PDF surfaced. Besides i think he's making the date up he said. "there is a good chance" and didn't even metion a source unnamed or otherwise. Some thing adout this website smells fishy to me. His style kinda reminds me of the macaddict.com rumor generator. (which is very funny go try it some time) IF this Pmac ships i wouldn't adopt it right away remeber the first G4 tower fiasco?:( So wait a month and see how things play out.

eric_n_dfw
Jul 24, 2002, 10:24 PM
Originally posted by DeusOmnis
Concerning the DDR connection between the ram and the cpu:

Apple doesnt need to invent this technology, it already exists in PC's. To copy someone else's deal is not exactly that hard. Apple wants to be competedative with the PC market, in order to do that their systems NEED to have the newest technologies and best parts. This is why a mac is more expensive than a PC. PM's come with a t base 1000 Ethernet port. NOTHING runs that fast, Apple is just trying to be the best, and in doing that the cost of the computer goes up a couple hundred dollars.
You, apparently, are new here and either don't know much about the PPC chip or Apple's motherboards -OR- you are flame bait, trolling for an arguement.

You do understand that Mac's do not run on AMD or Intel chips, right?

And about the Gigabit Ethernet, what's your point when you say "NOTHING" runs that fast? You aren't thinking it runs faster than a 133Mhz system bus are you? Don't confuse GigaBytes per second to GigaBits per second.

rice_web
Jul 24, 2002, 10:26 PM
Whatever the case, I think it's going to be interesting. The way I look at it, we'll see a nice increase in speed, no matter what path is taken.

If we only see 1GHz computers, I might still be happy. If those computers sport 4MB L3 caches, 166MHz system buses, and DDR memory, it may not be so bad. The performance increase might still be significant.

If we see faster Apollos, that isn't too bad either. If we saw Apollos at 1.2 or 1.33GHz that sported DDR memory (just like the Xserve), I don't think that many would be too disappointed.

If we get 1.2GHz 7470s, I'll be happier yet. With 512K L2 cache, maybe 4MB L3 cache, 166MHz system bus, and DDR memory, there isn't a thing about this possibility that I don't like.

If we get 1.4GHz or higher 7470s, I'll be whistlin' Dixie. That sucker would cook. Obviously, we'd see the largest difference in speed with this route.

All-in-all, I like our possibilities. The first two options might give us roughly a 10%-20% boost in speed. The third possiblity would yield a significant increase, and the fourth option would kick arse.

goldmember
Jul 24, 2002, 11:12 PM
The 5th is way too early guys...c'mon Apple usually waits longer than a week after an expo to release new products.

I think they'll unveil it on the 12th or perhaps later, and by the time they ship jaguar will be out.

esome
Jul 24, 2002, 11:13 PM
thinking about the rumored hugeness of the cooling system for the coming machines makes me wonder why quad-processor macs aren't a reality?

too expensive?
too complicated? hardwarewise or softwarewise?

or is it, as some of the posts in this thread imply simply because the bottleneck has been memory/bus speed, so there's little gained from adding the extra procs?

can anyone shed a little light on this subject for me?

tjwett
Jul 24, 2002, 11:43 PM
somebody clear this up for me...is there or is there not a G4 chip that can support true DDR? not like the XServes but with a DDR bus also? is this even a possibility with any of the current chips? from what i understand the current use of DDR(as in the XServe)doesn't yield a very significant speed increase. humor me for i am but a humble artist and i know not how the guts work;)

kaneda
Jul 24, 2002, 11:43 PM
They should announce the new G4 two weeks before Jaguar releases...they will take order two weeks in advance..and ship it with Jag...on the 24th...

eric_n_dfw
Jul 25, 2002, 12:04 AM
Originally posted by tjwett
somebody clear this up for me...is there or is there not a G4 chip that can support true DDR? not like the XServes but with a DDR bus also? is this even a possibility with any of the current chips? from what i understand the current use of DDR(as in the XServe)doesn't yield a very significant speed increase. humor me for i am but a humble artist and i know not how the guts work;)
There is a rumored G4+ (sorry, don't know the actual, 7xxx chip number) that has DDR support done in a similar fashion to how AMD added it to their Athlons. The key word here is rumored; nobody has confirmed it as far as I know.

The XServer's implementation sounds like a kludge, but recent benchmarks show it to be quite a performer.

Link to benchmarks on Xinet.com (http://www.xinet.com/benchmarks/benchmarks.2002/)
Link to story about them on MacCentral.com (http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/0206/27.xinet.php)

bretm
Jul 25, 2002, 01:17 AM
Originally posted by iGAV


Haven't some new macs in the past shipped with the latest OS installed before one could purchase it or D/L it off the Apple site??

Either way... new PowerMacs are coming next month.... either at the start or at the end..... a couple of weeks really doesn't make much of a difference....... :)

The Apple Store here in Atlanta has the 17" iMac running Jaguar as we speak.

Neither of course are available to take home of course.

beatle888
Jul 25, 2002, 01:40 AM
Originally posted by thedude
I hate to do this to everyone, but it's something that's been bugging me.

why all the cooling? g4's don't put off that much heat so the fan and the kitchen sink....er...heatsink seem like overkill.

maybe because there are more procs going in there...It kinda seemed like there would be room under that block to put 4 procs

I don't think it's likely, but possible. Apple asked what the 3d community wanted. A rackmount server (x serve) and dual and quad proc machines. Well apple delivered on the x serve.

hmmm...

:p


I think your right, im feeling the same way.......who knows though
it would be great wouldnt it......that should turn some heads.

solvs
Jul 25, 2002, 01:58 AM
Originally posted by eric_n_dfw

You, apparently, are new here and either don't know much about the PPC chip or Apple's motherboards -OR- you are flame bait, trolling for an arguement.

You do understand that Mac's do not run on AMD or Intel chips, right?

And about the Gigabit Ethernet, what's your point when you say "NOTHING" runs that fast? You aren't thinking it runs faster than a 133Mhz system bus are you? Don't confuse GigaBytes per second to GigaBits per second.

Why is it everytime someone starts this arguement they're trolls?

I completely agree with the GBEthernet part. Not many people use this yet. But what about DDR, ATA/133 (for larger drive support), and even, shudder, USB2. People might actually use these things, and they're not that much more expensive to implement.

Hate to tell you, but Macs DO use standard PC technology. SDRAM, IDE, USB, FW, AGP, PCI.

True, they use slightly different parts (for their RISC CPUs, and proprietary stuff), but it's more or less the same type of technology. And different drivers. But many "Wintel" components can be used in Macs. I know, I've done it.

Let's just hope Apple actually does something for their next PRO lines.

It's my money, I'd rather have OS X than any M$ Windows varient, and I can b*tch all I want about not wanting to spend that much on yesterday's technology.

ATA/66???

beatle888
Jul 25, 2002, 01:58 AM
Originally posted by eric_n_dfw

Uhhhh - no.


Welcome to MacRumors.com






LOL:cool:

trilogic
Jul 25, 2002, 02:01 AM
apple used to offer 3 desktop modells and a "ultimate" one which is just fully loaded with all the options.

but with highend pro applications like Shake or Maya for OSX. there is a market for a really fast and expensive machine.

I think it is possible that there will be a new highend desktop modell for people who use to buy SGI stations for >$15k

beatle888
Jul 25, 2002, 02:08 AM
Originally posted by ddtlm
And for today's dose of harsh reality, I would like to point out that there is no reason outside of the usual baseless rumors to believe that the G4 itself will be connected to a DDR front side bus. I've said it before, and I'd like to repeat that it is highly unlikely that Apple made the Xserve's chipset which uses DDR RAM and a SDR FSB for only the Xserve.

maybe that huge heat sink has something to do with a work around
apple engineerd to avoid the potential problem you discribe above.

But i wouldnt doubt it if apple released the first version of DDR
computers with the limitations described above......didnt they
release the G4 before it was really ready for primetime..?
About a month later (or more i dont remember) they released
the G4 system that was an optimized version of the first.....
I can easily see apple doing this.....

Hemingray
Jul 25, 2002, 02:23 AM
Originally posted by Joshlew
Do you think there's any chance of dual 1.6Ghz G4's?
Please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, PLEASE!!!!!!!

Please indeed. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I say 1.2 at BEST. But the PC2700 sounds good enough to me. :)

ddtlm
Jul 25, 2002, 02:30 AM
beatle888:

Hum, I'm not sure how you see a huge heatsink as a workaround for a DDR FSB. A huge heatsink would work very well with a huge, slow fan, resulting in a very quiet machine which the current G4 towers are not. Nothing to do with DDR though.

And yes, Apple certainly did release the Xserve with DDR 266 (133x2) RAM and a 133mhz FSB, this is a known fact.

eric_n_dfw:

I want to see some benchmarks of "normal usuage" and games. The current benchmarks are too few and too specialized to mean anything to most people.

tjwett:

No current G4 chip supports a DDR FSB, although Apple has made a chipset that supports DDR RAM. This means that when the CPU is reading/writing to/from the RAM, it still has to travel down a single data rate FSB which elliminates much of the benefit of DDR. In general usuage, a well-benchmarked VIA chipset for Pentium III's which was also SDR/DDR in this fassion showed a 0% to 5% general performance increase over it's SDR/SDR relative. I do not expect much more from general use on Apple's Xserve chipset, although certain benchmarks do go very fast. These benchmarks are no more relavent to most of us that the Photoshop backoffs are.

esome:

The hugeness of the cooling system could aslo simply be for a much more quiet computer. A huge heatsink with a huge, slow-spinning fan just breezes away the heat with very very little noise. This is much more plausible than quad G4's.

I am not sure if quad G4's are even possible, but if they are, realize that the shared FSB would become a major performance bottleneck.

DeusOmnis:

Yeah, Apple wishes they could just lift the Athlon's FSB and make it work with their stuff. That's not the real world though, for one thing, the FSB must be matched to the processor, which means that no DDR FSB can exist with a G4 that supports it.

SPG:

Regardless of what Apple or Moto wants, CPU's are not designed on the backs of envelopes and rolled out the next day. Major designs take years, small ones take no less than many many months, and the fabs need months to get a production line started after the CPU is finsihed. It does not matter if Apple is desperate and their customers are mad, Moto cannot be expected to roll out a CPU for six months and then brush it aside. It took them far longer to design it and get production ramped up. A DDR-FSB-supporting G4 around February would not surprise me, but one in a month would.

Nebrie
Jul 25, 2002, 02:40 AM
Originally posted by gopher


AHEM!!!!

How is this "free" possible if:

http://www.apple.com/macosx/uptodate/

says:

" Apple would like to give you the opportunity to upgrade to Mac OS X v10.2 “Jaguar.” Customers who purchase a qualifying new Macintosh computer on or after July 17, 2002, that does not have Mac OS X v10.2 “Jaguar” included can upgrade to Mac OS X v10.2 “Jaguar” for US$19.95.* See “Terms and Conditions” for program details."

Obviously there will be some machines that won't have a free 10.2 after Macworld NY. July 17th was Macworld NY. Your statement makes no sense sir. You sure you weren't talking to the Apple Store in Washington Apple country?

AHEM!!!

You're obviously new to the Mac. Any time Apple says "free" they really mean "free after 19.95 shipping charge". This isn't by far new.

tjwett
Jul 25, 2002, 03:12 AM
"ddtlm" just handled the whole damn page! newbie represent! and thanks for clearing that up for me.

focusdchaos
Jul 25, 2002, 09:01 AM
I'm from the PC world, so please forgive my ignorance.

Why does the retail release of Jaguar have *anything* to do with the anouncment or even shipping of new PowerMacs.

Apple said that Jaguar will ship on Aug 24, that is fact.

If new PM is released on the 12th, or even if it is avaliable for immediate delivery on the 12th, how does that effect the retail shipments of Jaguar?

It doesn't.

focusdchaos
Jul 25, 2002, 09:09 AM
Originally posted by DeusOmnis
PM's come with a t base 1000 Ethernet port. NOTHING runs that fast, Apple is just trying to be the best, and in doing that the cost of the computer goes up a couple hundred dollars.


I am using Gigabit right now. All of our routers have Gigabit connections to our servers. Lots of people are using Gigabit. Lots of people don't have Gigabit @ home, that is true though.

Adding Gigabit ethernet doesn't cost a couple of hundred dollars. I would bet it only costs Apple $50-$70 more than a 10 megabit controller. If even that.

primalman
Jul 25, 2002, 09:10 AM
Did anyone else notice that there is no Apple logo to be seen on the face of the 'rumor' machine?

drastik
Jul 25, 2002, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by gopher


AHEM!!!!

How is this "free" possible if:

http://www.apple.com/macosx/uptodate/

says:

" Apple would like to give you the opportunity to upgrade to Mac OS X v10.2 “Jaguar.” Customers who purchase a qualifying new Macintosh computer on or after July 17, 2002, that does not have Mac OS X v10.2 “Jaguar” included can upgrade to Mac OS X v10.2 “Jaguar” for US$19.95.* See “Terms and Conditions” for program details."

Obviously there will be some machines that won't have a free 10.2 after Macworld NY. July 17th was Macworld NY. Your statement makes no sense sir. You sure you weren't talking to the Apple Store in Washington Apple country?

Just like 10.1, the 19.99 is for shipping on the Cd (inflated, sure, but normal) If you go to a retail store or even an apple authorized dealer, they'll just hand you he disks.

vitrector
Jul 25, 2002, 09:35 AM
Somewhat off topic, but hey...
Here is some news:
--------
ATI Gets Radeon 7000,7500 Pacts For New Desktop PCs -2

07/25/2002 08:15

John Moritsugu, Dow Jones Newswires; 416-306-2100

MARKHAM, Ont. -(Dow Jones)- ATI Technologies Inc.'s (ATYT) RADEON 7000 and RADEON 7500 graphics boards have been selected for various desktop PCs.

In a press release, the company said the RADEON 7000 will be featured in the IBM NetVista M Series, the HP Compaq Presario 6000 series and the Dell Precision Workstation 340, while the RADEON 7500 has been chosen for Apple's PowerMac G4, Hewlett-Packard's EVO-310, Fujitsu's FMV-DESKPOWER and Dell's Optiplex GX260.
---------
This suggests that the next powermac will be a G4 (no surprise), and will have the RADEON 7500 graphics card (what up?).
Currently the Radeon 7500 is only in the low end educational model, while the high end pms have the NVIDIA GeForce4 MX.
This news is a bit bizzare IMHO.

beatle888
Jul 25, 2002, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by ddtlm
beatle888:

Hum, I'm not sure how you see a huge heatsink as a workaround for a DDR FSB. A huge heatsink would work very well with a huge, slow fan, resulting in a very quiet machine which the current G4 towers are not. Nothing to do with DDR though.



Hey dont worry about it........I really dont know what
im talking about when it comes to hardware......I just
thought that it might have something to do with how
they handled the DDR/FSB issue.........thanks for replying
on the subject as i THOUGHT I was on to something : ) :p

backspinner
Jul 25, 2002, 09:41 AM
Originally posted by tjwett
"ddtlm" just handled the whole damn page! newbie represent! and thanks for clearing that up for me.
well done ddtlm!

dizastor
Jul 25, 2002, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by primalman
Did anyone else notice that there is no Apple logo to be seen on the face of the 'rumor' machine?

There is no apple logo on the front of my Dual 1GHZ machine at my house or my Dual 800 machine here at work... what is your point?

mowry
Jul 25, 2002, 09:59 AM
Did anyone else noticed that the CPU daughtercard depicted in the leaked photos of the DDR PowerMac is almost identical to the one in the Xserve? In the past, Apple has tried to have a unified motherboard design across multiple products. Obviously, because of the different case styles, the PowerMac and Xserv motherboards cannot be identical (although their chipsets could be very similar). The next best thing to having a single motherboard design might be to have a single design for the CPU daughtercard. This would go some way toward reducing development costs. It would also make CPU upgrades feasible.

primalman
Jul 25, 2002, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by greenmonsterman


There is no apple logo on the front of my Dual 1GHZ machine at my house or my Dual 800 machine here at work... what is your point?

sorry, still using digital audio here, did not realize that Apple is going no logo on face of pro stuff. my bad

vaal
Jul 25, 2002, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by drastik


Just like 10.1, the 19.99 is for shipping on the Cd (inflated, sure, but normal) If you go to a retail store or even an apple authorized dealer, they'll just hand you he disks.

The free discs handed out at the stores were NOT the same discs mailed out for 19.99. No developer CD, and a 9.2.1 UPDATE CD instead of a 9.2.1 full install CD.

eric_n_dfw
Jul 25, 2002, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by solvs
Why is it everytime someone starts this arguement they're trolls?
My apologies - 'twas late :o

Originally posted by solvs
But what about DDR, ATA/133 (for larger drive support), and even, shudder, USB2. People might actually use these things, and they're not that much more expensive to implement.
As far as ATA/133, USB2 and USB2, I am with you 100%, but the DDR thing is a much bigger issue. Besides the interesting way they did it in the XServe, it's more of a Motorola / IBM issue than one that can be solved by Apple. (Let's just hope the rumored G4+ with DDR support is a reality -- soon!)

Originally posted by solvs
Hate to tell you, but Macs DO use standard PC technology. SDRAM, IDE, USB, FW, AGP, PCI.

True, they use slightly different parts (for their RISC CPUs, and proprietary stuff), but it's more or less the same type of technology. And different drivers. But many "Wintel" components can be used in Macs. I know, I've done it.
Your slightly different parts analogy doesn't quite work here. This is like saying, "My Acura RSX-S and my friends Corvette use standard car technology. Tires, gears, leather seats, stering wheel, gas tank. True, they use slightly different parts (for their transversly mounted, front wheel drive, iVTEC engine and propietary stuff), but it's more or less the same type of technology." :)
Try to put a rear wheel drive on my RSX and see how much work would need to be done! ;)

PS: I also have added Wintel components to my Mac - CDRW, PC-133 RAM, Firewire/ USB2 Card so I know where you're coming from here. They are more similar today than they ever were.

Originally posted by solvs
Let's just hope Apple actually does something for their next PRO lines.

It's my money, I'd rather have OS X than any M$ Windows varient, and I can b*tch all I want about not wanting to spend that much on yesterday's technology.

ATA/66???
Agreed! :mad: Let's hope Apple is waking up!

Joshlew
Jul 25, 2002, 04:04 PM
What processor do you think the low end model will use????:confused:
I'm hoping for 1Ghz.......:p

TeraRWM
Jul 25, 2002, 04:30 PM
I think it's sad every time I go read threads and people post comments like,"Apple better get their butts in gear because their use of Motos old technology is making Macs laughable in speed.". I sometimes think those people have had very sever head truma because I decided to switch to the Mac not because of their use of Motorolas and IBMs processors but because of the way their operating system doesn't try to suck as much power as possible making the system liable to frequent crashes and core stabablity problems. It's not how good the processors are, it's how good the operating system is.

rice_web
Jul 25, 2002, 05:36 PM
Actually, that last statement is right.

Code has become so bloated, that we actually have more than enough raw speed to do most anything.

Not to say that I wouldn't like faster G4s.

JtheLemur
Jul 25, 2002, 10:18 PM
http://eonblue.com/forums/Beating.jpg

Hee hee. =D

-- J

solvs
Jul 26, 2002, 02:59 AM
Originally posted by eric_n_dfw

My apologies - 'twas late :o


As far as ATA/133, USB2 and USB2, I am with you 100%, but the DDR thing is a much bigger issue. Besides the interesting way they did it in the XServe, it's more of a Motorola / IBM issue than one that can be solved by Apple. (Let's just hope the rumored G4+ with DDR support is a reality -- soon!)


Your slightly different parts analogy doesn't quite work here. This is like saying, "My Acura RSX-S and my friends Corvette use standard car technology. Tires, gears, leather seats, stering wheel, gas tank. True, they use slightly different parts (for their transversly mounted, front wheel drive, iVTEC engine and propietary stuff), but it's more or less the same type of technology." :)
Try to put a rear wheel drive on my RSX and see how much work would need to be done! ;)

PS: I also have added Wintel components to my Mac - CDRW, PC-133 RAM, Firewire/ USB2 Card so I know where you're coming from here. They are more similar today than they ever were.


Agreed! :mad: Let's hope Apple is waking up!

Sorry, I was in a pissy mood when I posted this stuff. And a bunch of people kept saying things about how "the Mac is far superior to the PC, and I should know, I've never owned a PC". I do. It does suck.

I'm just really frustrated because I want the Mac OS, and I need a reasonably priced, fairly good system for multimedia purposes.

I just want the ability to use the new 200 GB hard drives without having to spend another $80 and using a precious PCI slot. I could care less about the processors #'s, I need OVERALL system thouroughput. I don't think I'm asking all that much for a $3,000 machine. I know you didn't, but other people we're calling me a troll, and telling me to buy a PC if I didn't like it. Yeah, cuz that helps. My point being, they could add some of this stuff (Motorola be Damned), I just can't understand why they don't.

If nothing else than to attract some of the PC users, or at least SHUT THEM UP ($3,000 for ATA/66!?!).

It's my $$$, I can bitch all I want.

End of Rant.

mrMahann
Jul 26, 2002, 08:15 AM
could be too soon, but wouldnt' that undermine the inventory-clearing smarmy buys?

on the subject of how derivative this french site case is... damn, can't they come up w/ something new? i hope its not this. when the blue meanie came out, yeah, fun and it gets noticed. i had one at work and people asked about it. but THE SAME @#$%!ING THING AGAIN? will likely just get a g3 upgrade card should it be the case <g> and see what JAN brings. my SuSE8 machine flies; tho it is purchased as a server can continue using it to browse, qIII, and other taxing stuff until i can get a fast mac.

YUK

SPG
Jul 26, 2002, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by solvs


I'm just really frustrated because I want the Mac OS, and I need a reasonably priced, fairly good system for multimedia purposes.

I just want the ability to use the new 200 GB hard drives without having to spend another $80 and using a precious PCI slot. I could care less about the processors #'s, I need OVERALL system thouroughput. I don't think I'm asking all that much for a $3,000 machine. I know you didn't, but other people we're calling me a troll, and telling me to buy a PC if I didn't like it. Yeah, cuz that helps. My point being, they could add some of this stuff (Motorola be Damned), I just can't understand why they don't.

If nothing else than to attract some of the PC users, or at least SHUT THEM UP ($3,000 for ATA/66!?!).

It's my $$$, I can bitch all I want.

End of Rant.

What kind of multimedia stuff are you doing that is being bogged down by a 66 bus? You've used up all your PCI slots? I don't know about this 200gig drive, but 120gig IDE 7200's are about $150ea, and I've got three HD's in one of my machines.
Everyone wants the best machine they can get, and especially the best machine for the money, but let's face it...the current crop of G4's (and even the older G4's) are still really good and immensely capable multimedia machines. I still do most of my DVD and edit work on a G4 450. Hell I still have a G3 based Media 100 that chugs along quite nicely.

solvs
Jul 26, 2002, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by SPG


What kind of multimedia stuff are you doing that is being bogged down by a 66 bus? You've used up all your PCI slots? I don't know about this 200gig drive, but 120gig IDE 7200's are about $150ea, and I've got three HD's in one of my machines.
Everyone wants the best machine they can get, and especially the best machine for the money, but let's face it...the current crop of G4's (and even the older G4's) are still really good and immensely capable multimedia machines. I still do most of my DVD and edit work on a G4 450. Hell I still have a G3 based Media 100 that chugs along quite nicely.

Not much of a reason to upgrade a 450 yet, but hopefully we'll see something next month.

I'll admit it, most of it's just principal. But some of it's real world. Not all of us play games on our computers. That wasn't a knock at you, or those who do, I was referring to comments I've heard and don't really get about why people don't buy Macs (buy a PS2 if you wanna play games. $199). Western Digital just announced 200 GB drives, only available on ATA/133. And Maxtor has those 160 GB drives, but they're only 5400 RPM. There's a small, but noticable, performance hit. It's all about the Latency.

If I buy a new Tower, I'd add a RT-Video PCI card, second Monitor (ATI Radeon 7000 PCI, with TV-Out), possibly SCSI card, sound card (wanted a SBLive, but without X drivers, no way. There are other options), as well as future upgrades. Like a dual USB 2/FW2 card when they're available, for compatiblity (although they could just add USB 2, too). You should see my PC. Loaded to the gills, and I'm still having to open it to add and remove stuff. At least it'd be easier on a QS-like Tower.

I'm looking to keep this new future computer for awhile, and will probably be an early adopter of Serial ATA when it comes out anyway, so I hate to bother with an $80 card now. I might just go with dual 120 GBs in the mean time (hopefully the Towers will have them as an option, the xServe does).

If they could have a Radeon 8500 as a CTO option, I wouldn't need another card for TV-Out. I might not need SCSI (we'll see). And if analog audio-in was an option, I could live without a PCI sound card. I probably won't be doing MIDI in anyway, but it's always nice to have options.

I know most drives don't saturate an ATA/66 bus, but ATA/100 seems to be faster. At least in my informal tests, and I've seen benchmarks that prove this on PC sites. Of course different ATA/100 cards were different speeds, so it depends on a lot of factors. But come on, doesn't it look better (especially to PC weenies)? And how much more could it cost? Less than GBEthernet I'm sure. Future proofing. Even with ATA/100, you can't have drives above 128 GBs. Do you know how much room Un-Compressed DV takes up? I can't afford Multi-RAID Ultra 160 SCSI 181 GB drives, and external drives are cumbersome.

You can see my predicament.

Don't get me wrong, I still love my Performa 6400. It was my first computer. "It'll always have a special place in my heart". Heh. But I hate my POS PCs (selling all but 1) and when I move, I want something nice (can't wait to use FCP 3). They won't have to do too much to impress me now-a-days.

1.2 GHz+, DDR (it helps, even bastardized. Trust me), ATA/133 (I guess 100 provides enough bandwidth, but hardware RAID 133 would blow me away), USB 2 (and FW 2, but who we kiddin'), LOTS of PCI slots, TV-Out (as an option at least), analog audio-in, etc. would make me very happy.

Don't make me go back to Win98, PLEASE for the love of humanity. Even Win2000 kinda sux.

"DLL error from an application you've long since uninstalled. Your computer will now shut down for no reason. Cannot shut down computer, program to shut down computer has shut down. Please restart your computer. Cannot restart, Internet Explorer has caused an invalid page fault in something you couldn't understand no matter how many classes you take, which is funny because you weren't even running IE, but for some horrible reason it's tied in to every facet of this OS shell built on a buggy DOS system that sucked in the first place. Trying to fix registry error, could not fix error because there is an error in your registry. Please quit application you already tried to quit".

Blue Screen. "Shutting Down Windows". Frozen computer. Fizzle, fizzle.

"You're Screwed".

macabre
Jul 26, 2002, 07:17 PM
http://www.wordsandimages.com/clients/test/mwadd.jpg

wrong thread, but I saw it while I was on the pot and thought of all of you here at MR :)

It is an add for macsolutions in the back of the August Macworld magazine. They must have finished the add before they read the rumors about no new Pmacs at MWNY. At least we know they read the rumor sites!

Wes
Jul 26, 2002, 07:27 PM
Macabre, that's really interesting, put me on the list! The G?

I wonder if they are expecting the cost of ddr or sdram

SPG
Jul 26, 2002, 07:30 PM
solvs, My point is that even the old G4's work damn well for multimedia. I should know since I have edited a half dozen edit and graphic heavy hour long programs on a G4 450, and made a couple dozen TV segments on that same machine, and created three dozen commercially released DVD's on a G4 400. I have never had a problem with drive throughput using IDE drives to edit DV material. If you want to do more than DV, say analog Beta SP, Digibeta, even HD you will need SCSI drives no matter what platform you are on.

You want a good FCP system? Any of the current G4's scream. How good are the PC based options when it comes to editing? I have yet to see anything even close to what FCP gives you for under $25k, and I have yet to see anything even remotely as stable. If you really want I can start telling you horror stories of producers I've worked with having their entire PC systems meltdown in the middle of big projects.

rlandrigan
Jul 26, 2002, 11:25 PM
Agreeing with the fact that a G4 anything will handle FCP rather nicely, but the faster it is, the better the render times, so...of couse, if you want to stay in ClassicLand, you can use the RT-Mac board. I just wish there was a compontent option for FCP that wasn't the better part of 10k.

Sadly, the MOST stable NLE i've used has been the old Video Machine, which started under windows 3.1, and use ISA boards with a propriatary interconnect bus and onboard scsi controllers. The best system I've ever used for hybrid and and a few other types of projects, and it still makes me sad that there isn't a modern equivilent. I live german engineers - they simply weren't aware that you couldn't make a NLE run on an ISA 486, and they did it anyway!:)

God, a firewire-based system similar and a Powerbook G4 for live events woudl make me soooooooooooo happy.

I'm curious to see how the Xserve handles FCP - going to test it out when my client's system arrives, I figure it'll serve as good a test as anything:) At least to see if the drives are truely as fast as they say!

agoldweber
Jul 27, 2002, 02:18 AM
remember some earlier rumors about new PM revs not being able to run OS 9 (or earlier--hey, there are those 7.5.5 diehards out there! ;) )?

I wonder if this predicted upcoming announcement, hand in hand with Jaguar will spell the end of OS 9-supported machines.

still seems insane to me--Jobs himself said only 20% of the user base is running OS X.

I'm clutching a fistful of cash, but I'm waiting to see is a DDR machine will still boot in OS 9.

thoughts?

skunk
Jul 27, 2002, 05:11 AM
If Apple are serious about getting the other 80% of users to migrate to OSX, wouldn't it be a good idea to produce a proper INSTRUCTION MANUAL. How can you RTFM if there isn't an FM to start with? It's all very well not having manuals for incremental upgrades to the old OS, but OSX is really very different, and there are many issues which I for one am unclear about, and I've been using Macs for years. I simply don't know my way around OSX, and the Help stuff is not actually all that helpful. To me, there are no appreciable advantages to OSX, just a very expensive, slow, confusing, piece of power-hungry bloatware which doesn't work with half my (very recently-bought) gear. Ease of use seems to have taken second place to style. What on earth is the point of having windows visible while you're moving them? And all the other gimmicks which use so much processing and graphics power that there's nothing left to run the programmes? It's time they stopped thinking so much about the packaging and more about the content. And the user.

Disgruntled of Richmond.

agoldweber
Jul 27, 2002, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by skunk
It's time they stopped thinking so much about the packaging and more about the content. And the user.


it seems they're trying to work many markets at once--and this is a good business practice.

they still want the graphics folks (like me), but they also want the kids, newbies, etc, etc, who respond less to crunch-time, deadline power and more to the eyecandy.

the roads will meet. lest us not forget--it's called OS X.2 but it's really OS I.2

barkmonster
Jul 28, 2002, 04:44 PM
I hope they're still bootable in OS 9. I mean there might be a load of graphics software for OS X, business apps, internet apps etc... but there's very little reason to even concider buying a new mac if you use you're current one for audio, there's very little software so far and if digidesign, emagic, steinberg and MOTU all released OS X native versions of their software we're still waiting on plug-ins and software synths before OS X is of any use. I do like the idea that I can get reason and bias Peak for OS X though, at least there's a few basics there already. It's the lack of almost all the other software synths and plug-ins for OS X and no definate date on when they're going to be ported or even if are in the first place.

If they bring out powermacs that won't boot into OS 9 I can see a lot of people snapping up the left overs from the current range once the resellers start their usual discounts or just buying CPU upgrades for their current systems rather buying a new mac. No OS 9 support would be a bad thing, for a start even if you managed to get a 933Mhz G4 or a dual 1GHz for a reasonable price it wouldn't have DDR or any of the other enhancements the new range will have and for audio you need all the bandwidth and CPU power you can get!