PDA

View Full Version : Jaguar for Developers


arn
Jul 24, 2002, 01:06 PM
Jaguar is reportedly available to Select and Premier-level members of the ADC (http://developer.apple.com/) (Apple Developer Connection).

The current seed is build 6C106 and is the first public developer release of Jaguar since WWDC in May.

ThinkSecret (http://www.thinksecret.com/news/jaguar6C106.html) reports that iSync and iCal are not included in this build.

Choppaface
Jul 24, 2002, 01:18 PM
anybody know how close to final this one is?

chewbaccapits
Jul 24, 2002, 01:39 PM
And I thought I was cool for BARELY getting Build6C98...man....

Backtothemac
Jul 24, 2002, 01:55 PM
Well, they are real close. It will probably go GM sometime in the next week and a half. Then to press, then ship. It will be soon young Skywalker, very soon indeed.:D

Rower_CPU
Jul 24, 2002, 02:34 PM
6C98 was the first build I've seen to really have a lot of the bugs ironed out. Most of the problems at this point are small cosmetic things, or implementations of new services (Sherlock channels, for instance).

I presume C106 will be almost GM material, with the chance of one more build afterwards.

You guys are gonna love it!:)

Midlantica
Jul 24, 2002, 03:13 PM
I've got G4 867 with nVidia 2mx. I've read the rumours saying Quartz Extreme will be set up for minimal 4mx... I know it will work with my 'old' card but will not the speed be much better for simple things like re-draw and games et al... I should get one in a couple of months right?

Anyone...?

Cheers

Rower_CPU
Jul 24, 2002, 03:19 PM
I've seen/tested it one ATI Rage Pro and ATI Rage Mobility chips and you still see significant speed improvements with 10.2...just not quite as much as you would with a QE "supported" video card.

peterjhill
Jul 24, 2002, 03:31 PM
What I am missing is some better documentation. The Kerberos stuff half works, but it broke my previous mail program (Mulberry) that relies on Kerb for authentication. The mail.app says it is using Kerberos, but I am not ready to trust it.

Let's see, what else... There is no obvious way to share your itunes library via itunes. iChat is nice, but one of my friends on a windows machine says he can't add me to his aim buddy list with the mac.com at the end. ipv6 works great! I have a native connection to the 6bone. Internet Explorer does not seem to be able to use ipv6 on the mac, though it does work on windows. Everything seems okay, the best part was that one of the upgrade options is to do a clean install, but copy the user folders and network settings into the new install. Some apps will need to be reinstalled, if they need to put anything into the library or system folder. I am almost certainally going to do a clean install when the real version comes out, wipe the harddrive, and get rid of classic!

Spidermanjohn
Jul 24, 2002, 03:38 PM
Here is how we shared our iTunes:-)

We did something pretty darn awesome with iTunes. We encoded our entire music and sound FX library to MP3 using iTunes at the highest data rate possible. I am talking about 15,000+ cuts. We used an iMac DV SE 600 and placed it on the network in studio control room A. Not only does this iMac playback all of our audio files for live shows, it also is the iTunes server for our entire TV station. The shared folder is set to read only.

It took a few weeks to encode the entire library, but it has been worth it. No more lost or misplaced CD's. Yes, we have the complete library backed up on a DVD RAM platter. We chose MP3 due to files size of course. You can use Wave or AIFF if you have the drive space, but we did not (Maybe this fiscal year). As Philip H. said, the high data rate MP3 files are indistinguishable from the original once converted back to AIFF. Every editing station has the same iTunes Library available over the network. I am sure if I were in Hollywood, or a top 20 station, I would choose to use AIFF, but there is really no need at this time. Could even get better with MPEG 4.

After encoding the library, we shared the iMac using AppleTalk. When accessing the iTunes server iMac, I copied the library file from the iMac server to the local computer over the network. The library overwrites the local file and appears on your local computer when you launch iTunes. If you are not connected to the server iTunes asks for the shared folder password when you launch. Kind of makes it dummy proof for the end user. Search for what is needed using the search tool included with iTunes, or hunt and peck with the client sitting next to you. If we update the iTunes server, the updated library appears on any local computer once the original library has been copied. This saves an incredible amount of time when searching for music and take only a few megs of space on the local computer. I also downloaded the Sound Ideas searchable database for the SFX library. Just type in “RAIN” and you get a few hundred hits. After you have made your selection just drag the iTunes file to the desktop and export to AIFF using QTPRO included with your purchase of FCP. The smile on my producers and editors faces was enough payment for me.

Thank you Steven J. and Apple for the incredible FREE iTunes and the iMac. This really did save use thousands of $$$$. I was looking at much more expensive solutions. It pays to have a long commute and good thinking time:-)

BTW: iTunes 2 and 3 work well together.

ImAlwaysRight
Jul 24, 2002, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by Midlantica
I've got G4 867 with nVidia 2mx. I've read the rumours saying Quartz Extreme will be set up for minimal 4mx...

I believe the official word from Apple is "32MB video card." Your nVidia GeForce2MX has 32MB of video RAM, same as the new iMacs. Apple has put GeForce2MX in eMac and iMac G4's to coincide with Quartz Extreme.

ImAlwaysRight
Jul 24, 2002, 03:50 PM
Can anyone who has access to these builds know what video cards are supported? Are there some files, say, that support a Radeon 9000 or 9700? I'm curious if these will be OEM on the new PowerMacs.

Backtothemac
Jul 24, 2002, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by ImAlwaysRight
Can anyone who has access to these builds know what video cards are supported? Are there some files, say, that support a Radeon 9000 or 9700? I'm curious if these will be OEM on the new PowerMacs.

The 7500 Radeon even the orginal 32 MB radeon will be supported, so surely the 9000 and 9700 will be.

peterjhill
Jul 24, 2002, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by ImAlwaysRight
Can anyone who has access to these builds know what video cards are supported? Are there some files, say, that support a Radeon 9000 or 9700? I'm curious if these will be OEM on the new PowerMacs.

There is no documentation with the discs (two). So, can't help you there. If they are supported now, I am sure that 10.2 will support them in one form or another.

drastik
Jul 24, 2002, 03:57 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ImAlwaysRight


I believe the official word from Apple is "32MB video card." Your nVidia GeForce2MX has 32MB of video RAM, same as the new iMacs. Apple has put GeForce2MX in eMac and iMac G4's to coincide with Quartz Extreme. [/QUOTE

Actually, I've read that Apple downmarked that o 16MB anyway, though I am not entirely sure that that is credible.

Rower_CPU
Jul 24, 2002, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by drastik
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ImAlwaysRight


I believe the official word from Apple is "32MB video card." Your nVidia GeForce2MX has 32MB of video RAM, same as the new iMacs. Apple has put GeForce2MX in eMac and iMac G4's to coincide with Quartz Extreme. [/QUOTE

Actually, I've read that Apple downmarked that o 16MB anyway, though I am not entirely sure that that is credible.

You're right:
From Apple's Quartz Extreme page (http://www.apple.com/macosx/jaguar/quartzextreme.html)
* Requirements:
Quartz Extreme functionality is supported by the following video GPUs: NVIDIA GeForce2 MX, GeForce3, GeForce4 MX, or GeForce4 Ti or any AGP-based ATI RADEON GPU. A minimum of 16MB VRAM is required.

8MB cards work just fine too.

big
Jul 24, 2002, 04:20 PM
I realize we can support everything once built, though why would apple limit its software, if it can even support video cards with 4mb, then why not?

Rower_CPU
Jul 24, 2002, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by big
I realize we can support everything once built, though why would apple limit its software, if it can even support video cards with 4mb, then why not?

Are you referring to OS support or QuartzGL support?

OS X 10.2 should support any video card that OS X has since PB.

gandalf55
Jul 24, 2002, 04:41 PM
how is win server support? mount on the desktop easily? things have gotten better, but mounting and having win servers stay mounted, etc. is my only serious hangup with OSX to date = hoping Jag fixes a ton of that.

peterjhill
Jul 24, 2002, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by gandalf55
how is win server support? mount on the desktop easily? things have gotten better, but mounting and having win servers stay mounted, etc. is my only serious hangup with OSX to date = hoping Jag fixes a ton of that.

Not sure if this was in 10.1.5, but
[titan:/sbin] phill% mount_smbfs -help
usage: mount_smbfs [-Nh] [-I host]
[-M cmode[/smode]] [-O cuid[:cgid]/suid[:sgid]]
[-R retrycount] [-T timeout]
[-U user] [-W workgroup]
[-d mode] [-f mode] [-g gid] [-n long] [-u uid]
//[workgroup;][user[:password]@]server[/share] path

and
[titan:/sbin] phill% ls mount*
mount* mount_cddafs* mount_ftp@ mount_nfs* mount_udf*
mount_afp* mount_devfs* mount_hfs* mount_smbfs* mount_volfs*
mount_cd9660* mount_fdesc* mount_msdos* mount_synthfs* mount_webdav*

Now that they have kerberos, they should make it easy to add AFS support into osx. www.openafs.org works pretty darn well. I also want to be able to use my kerberos tickets when I ssh into a machine to give me access to it.

It would be nice to start using this thread for people using the DR, to exchange Q&As

Catfish_Man
Jul 24, 2002, 06:55 PM
...requires:
1) A GPU. This means Radeon or later. It will NOT support Rages of any kind, nor TNT2s [apparently the original GeForce 256 isn't supported either, but I'm not sure if there was a Mac version of it].
2) AGP

QuartzGL likes:
1) Plenty of vram (it really depends on your resolution. 16MB should be just fine for 1024x768, but I wouldn't try to run a CinemaHD off it)

alex_ant
Jul 24, 2002, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by Catfish_Man
QuartzGL likes:
1) Plenty of vram (it really depends on your resolution. 16MB should be just fine for 1024x768, but I wouldn't try to run a CinemaHD off it)
I'm just wondering these things, so if anyone can help, that would be great:

- How well will QE run on the rev B TiBook, with 16MB of VRAM and 1152x768?
- What does Apple mean by "optimally?"
- Is there a limit to the number of open windows, or open window surface area? If QE treats windows as textures, does it cache the textures/windows in VRAM or in main RAM?
- Describe the resolution independence. Can you zoom in and out of your desktop? What else can you do?
- What kind of performance difference is there between QE and plain Quartz?
- Does QE cause the GPU to generate extra heat, or does this balance out due to the decreased reliance on the CPU?
- What effect does QE have on battery life?
- Is window resizing smooth now? Web page scrolling? How else do Aqua animations differ from plain Quartz?

Thanks,
Alex

Rower_CPU
Jul 24, 2002, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by alex_ant

I'm just wondering these things, so if anyone can help, that would be great:

- How well will QE run on the rev B TiBook, with 16MB of VRAM and 1152x768?
- What does Apple mean by "optimally?"
- Is there a limit to the number of open windows, or open window surface area? If QE treats windows as textures, does it cache the textures/windows in VRAM or in main RAM?
- Describe the resolution independence. Can you zoom in and out of your desktop? What else can you do?
- What kind of performance difference is there between QE and plain Quartz?
- Does QE cause the GPU to generate extra heat, or does this balance out due to the decreased reliance on the CPU?
- What effect does QE have on battery life?
- Is window resizing smooth now? Web page scrolling? How else do Aqua animations differ from plain Quartz?

Thanks,
Alex

I'll try to give you some answers, but I haven't had enough time and machines to test it out as much as I would like.

I'm running 6C98 on a Rev A TiBook (8MB VRAM @1152x768). It is noticeably smoother than 10.1.5. Same goes for a B&W G3 with a Rage 128 (again 8 MB VRAM).

What does anyone mean by "optimally"? I think it's strictly a CYA thing so that people don't expect video cards such as the ones I've used to perform on par with a GeForce4.

As far as a comparison between QE/QGL, I can only point you to Apple's page on the subject:
http://www.apple.com/macosx/jaguar/quartzextreme.html
(note the very pretty graph at the bottom depicting the speed differences ;) )

Zooming works well through the accessibility features in System Prefs...down to a single pixel from what I can tell.

Window resizing and scrolling are much faster, but still nowhere near as fast as IE on Windows.

I have noticed no difference in battery life with 10.2.

Hope some of this helps.:)

alex_ant
Jul 24, 2002, 07:49 PM
Thanks.

Catfish_Man
Jul 24, 2002, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by alex_ant

I'm just wondering these things, so if anyone can help, that would be great:

- How well will QE run on the rev B TiBook, with 16MB of VRAM and 1152x768?
- What does Apple mean by "optimally?"
- Is there a limit to the number of open windows, or open window surface area? If QE treats windows as textures, does it cache the textures/windows in VRAM or in main RAM?
- Describe the resolution independence. Can you zoom in and out of your desktop? What else can you do?
- What kind of performance difference is there between QE and plain Quartz?
- Does QE cause the GPU to generate extra heat, or does this balance out due to the decreased reliance on the CPU?
- What effect does QE have on battery life?
- Is window resizing smooth now? Web page scrolling? How else do Aqua animations differ from plain Quartz?

Thanks,
Alex

Actually, window resizing and scrolling are some of the few things that aren't accelerated much by QuartzGL. Basically it accelerates transparency, moving, scaling, and rotating (afaik). Unfortunately, OSX still isn't resolution independent. You can zoom, but it will just make everything pixelated. I'm looking forward to a vector based UI that can be scaled (essentially for free with QGL) to any size (within reason) on any resolution, but we don't have it yet. Windows will be stored in vram until you run out, then in main memory (this is why you need AGP, PCI can't do that). To calculate how much memory a window takes (in millions of colors [32 bit color]) use this formula:

height (in pixels) * width (in pixels) * 4 / 1048576 = memory (in megabytes).

So an 800x600x32 window (full screen on my computer) takes about 1.83MB of vram (I have 2MB).

Choppaface
Jul 24, 2002, 09:44 PM
what about window compression? does that help at all? and why do you multiply the window area by 4? also does the shadow count in the measurements?

Originally posted by Spidermanjohn
Here is how we shared our iTunes:-)

We did something pretty darn awesome with iTunes. We encoded our entire music and sound FX library to MP3 using iTunes at the highest data rate possible. I am talking about 15,000+ cuts. We used an iMac DV SE 600 and placed it on the network in studio control room A. Not only does this iMac playback all of our audio files for live shows, it also is the iTunes server for our entire TV station. The shared folder is set to read only.

It took a few weeks to encode the entire library, but it has been worth it. No more lost or misplaced CD's. Yes, we have the complete library backed up on a DVD RAM platter. We chose MP3 due to files size of course. You can use Wave or AIFF if you have the drive space, but we did not (Maybe this fiscal year). As Philip H. said, the high data rate MP3 files are indistinguishable from the original once converted back to AIFF. Every editing station has the same iTunes Library available over the network. I am sure if I were in Hollywood, or a top 20 station, I would choose to use AIFF, but there is really no need at this time. Could even get better with MPEG 4.

After encoding the library, we shared the iMac using AppleTalk. When accessing the iTunes server iMac, I copied the library file from the iMac server to the local computer over the network. The library overwrites the local file and appears on your local computer when you launch iTunes. If you are not connected to the server iTunes asks for the shared folder password when you launch. Kind of makes it dummy proof for the end user. Search for what is needed using the search tool included with iTunes, or hunt and peck with the client sitting next to you. If we update the iTunes server, the updated library appears on any local computer once the original library has been copied. This saves an incredible amount of time when searching for music and take only a few megs of space on the local computer. I also downloaded the Sound Ideas searchable database for the SFX library. Just type in “RAIN” and you get a few hundred hits. After you have made your selection just drag the iTunes file to the desktop and export to AIFF using QTPRO included with your purchase of FCP. The smile on my producers and editors faces was enough payment for me.

Thank you Steven J. and Apple for the incredible FREE iTunes and the iMac. This really did save use thousands of $$$$. I was looking at much more expensive solutions. It pays to have a long commute and good thinking time:-)

BTW: iTunes 2 and 3 work well together.

wow! now that is a cool setup!!! did you have the imac converting 24/7 or just during the day? what was the total disk spaced used for all the mp3s?

Beej
Jul 24, 2002, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by Rower_CPU
As far as a comparison between QE/QGL, I can only point you to Apple's page on the subject:
http://www.apple.com/macosx/jaguar/quartzextreme.html
(note the very pretty graph at the bottom depicting the speed differences ;) )Wow... 10.2 is 3 times faster at everything than 10.1! I'd love to see benchmarks of 10.0 in there... perhaps they are, but the bars are so low you can't see them...

Originally posted by Catfish_Man
Unfortunately, OSX still isn't resolution independent. You can zoom, but it will just make everything pixelated. I'm looking forward to a vector based UI that can be scaled (essentially for free with QGL) to any size (within reason) on any resolution, but we don't have it yet.That would be very nice. But it won't help zooming on DVDs, pictures etc... that would be really sweet :D

sparkleytone
Jul 24, 2002, 10:12 PM
a very major part of the graphics in OS X are indeed vector based and resolution independent. Video poses a different problem altogether as it doesnt quite fit into your average display server model. Its really only a layer on top of the engine, with its own drivers and such. When the actual format of video is changed to a vector based engine, that's when youll see it.

bhenry@mac.com
Jul 24, 2002, 11:17 PM
from the Apple site:

* Requirements:
Quartz Extreme functionality is supported by the following video GPUs: NVIDIA GeForce2 MX, GeForce3, GeForce4 MX, or GeForce4 Ti or any AGP-based ATI RADEON GPU. A minimum of 16MB VRAM is required.

Geert
Jul 25, 2002, 04:55 AM
Too bad a regular adc membership can't Dl this build :(

s10
Jul 25, 2002, 06:37 AM
I'm running 6c106 since it was released (very slow download Apple!) up to now no problems whatsoever, except a small bug with network options:
I unchecked the "warn me to remain connected after 15 minutes" but it still give me the warnings, so I changed the 15 to 300 minutes.

The new startup screen is better then that "hello" face, much more class.

rugby
Jul 25, 2002, 06:52 AM
Do you know what I love about this forum?

NDA's from Apple don't seem to apply here.

Just be careful what is being said, the powers that be might get upset and I would hate to see this place get the "Wrath of Steve" email.

milksheikh
Jul 25, 2002, 09:32 AM
Does anyone know if 10.2 will be included in the standalone ADC Developer Mailing?

jorgeherrera
Jul 25, 2002, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by milksheikh
Does anyone know if 10.2 will be included in the standalone ADC Developer Mailing?

it will, see the news for July 19, No. 310, point one:

http://developer.apple.com/devnews/

Spidermanjohn
Jul 25, 2002, 10:24 AM
So far the total size is around 15GB. But each cut of music and SFX is not 3+ minutes in length. We are adding sound files as we get them. Television and video production music have 10-15, 2 to 5 minute cuts per CD along with :30, :45, and 1:00 cuts of the same track. SFX can be as short as five seconds or as long as five minutes.

Macximum
Jul 25, 2002, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by peterjhill

iChat is nice, but one of my friends on a windows machine says he can't add me to his aim buddy list with the mac.com at the end.

Mac.com Buddylist Support is Mac AIM/AOL only, Windows AIM/AOL is currently not supported.

Cheers
Macx

alex_ant
Jul 25, 2002, 05:07 PM
What do you mean by that, Macximum? Does that mean iChat not a replacement for OS X apps like AIM, Adium etc.?

jaykk
Jul 25, 2002, 05:37 PM
The Apple Developer Connection Mailing is available as a standalone product at US$199 for a one year subscription . If jaguar ($129)is included, it is a good deal.. One year Subscription plus Jaguar .. I was about to pre-order Jaguar instead i am subscribing to Mailing... cool.thanks for pointing that out

peterjhill
Jul 25, 2002, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by alex_ant
What do you mean by that, Macximum? Does that mean iChat not a replacement for OS X apps like AIM, Adium etc.?

I chat is great for chatting with other mac users, but forget your windows buddies, unless you want to use your aim account instead of your .mac account. If they were smart, you would be able to use both accounts at once.

alex_ant
Jul 25, 2002, 10:10 PM
Ohhhh, I see. Is there an advantage to using a .mac account instead of an AIM account?

ZigMonty
Jul 26, 2002, 01:23 AM
Originally posted by peterjhill


Not sure if this was in 10.1.5, but

[snip]

[titan:/sbin] phill% ls mount*
mount* mount_cddafs* mount_ftp@ mount_nfs* mount_udf*
mount_afp* mount_devfs* mount_hfs* mount_smbfs* mount_volfs*
mount_cd9660* mount_fdesc* mount_msdos* mount_synthfs* mount_webdav*


mount_ftp? That definitely isn't in 10.1.5! Have you got any more information on that?

Peter

peterjhill
Jul 26, 2002, 06:54 AM
% mount_ftp
Use of uninitialized value in concatenation (.) at /sbin/mount_ftp line 17.
Use of uninitialized value in concatenation (.) at /sbin/mount_ftp line 17.
execstring: /System/Library/Filesystems/ftp.fs/csmount -m
usage: csmount [options]...
options:

-V Print version and host information, then quit.

-tm n Set default mount timeout to n seconds.
mnttimeo=n mount option overrides this default.
Default value is 20 seconds.

-tl n Set default mount time-to-live to n seconds.
ttl=n mount option overrides this default.
Zero value sets infinite time-to-live.
Default value is 10000 seconds.

-1 Modifies the "-fstab" map. Mounts are done "one at a time",
when an actual mount point is traversed, rather than forcing
all mounts from a server at its top-level directory.

-s All mounts are forced at startup, and never expire.

-d Run in debug mode.

-D type Log debug messages for type.
type may be "mount", "proc", "select"
"options", or "all".
Multiple -D options may be specified.

-m dir map Mount map on directory dir.
map may be a file (must be an absolute path),
a NetInfo mountmap name,
"-fstab", or "-null".

Backtothemac
Jul 26, 2002, 08:27 AM
Damn you Unix folks give me a headache with all of the /dev/null stuff. he.h.e :D

ZigMonty
Jul 26, 2002, 08:54 AM
peterjhill,

Looks cool. One last thing though: could you go to "Connect to Server..." in the Finder and type ftp://ftp.apple.com/ into the Address field and tell me what happens?

Thanks.

peterjhill
Jul 26, 2002, 09:05 AM
Originally posted by ZigMonty
peterjhill,

Looks cool. One last thing though: could you go to "Connect to Server..." in the Finder and type ftp://ftp.apple.com/ into the Address field and tell me what happens?

Thanks.

It mounts it on the desktop as a network drive that is browseable. Very nice and quick too.

ZigMonty
Jul 26, 2002, 09:21 AM
peterjhill,

Damn! I've really been holding out for this feature. This is great!

Thanks heaps.