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View Full Version : Trouble with my PC freak employer (quit my job?)


h4ckintosh
Aug 3, 2004, 03:30 PM
I am doing a Web Design job for a small local company, and am on-site for about the next year. I do alot of Photoshop and PHP/MySQL stuff, and am requesting a 2.0GHz G5 with 1GB RAM. The problem is, they say that a Mac is uneconomical, and say that I should use a Dell instead! My project begins in a month, so I was wondering: What could I do to persuade them into making the purchase? :rolleyes: :mad: :confused:

edesignuk
Aug 3, 2004, 03:35 PM
Ha, if I was employing you (as the owner of a "small local company") to do some web design I'd laugh in your face if you asked for a dual 2 G5 - $$$$$$. sheeesh, you don't want much do you. Either deal with the fact that they will get you a fast Dell, or don't take the job. But I wouldn't even waste my breath trying to change their minds.

h4ckintosh
Aug 3, 2004, 03:42 PM
the computer is the only thing...I'm not getting paid (instead of them paying for a guy that works for $50/hour) ...

edesignuk
Aug 3, 2004, 03:46 PM
the computer is the only thing...I'm not getting paid...ok, that changes things slightly...would have been an idea to mention that small (LARGE!!) fact in the first place...

Vector
Aug 3, 2004, 04:03 PM
If you aren't getting paid, then i wouldn't do the job unless they gave me the computer i wanted. If they give you a dell, it will be very outdated in a year, and it isn't something you want to use anyway.

So is the computer payment for doing the job? If it is and it is going to take a year, then why is the pay so little? $2000, or whatever that coniguration costs doesn't sound like much for what you describe - a 1 year job.

rueyeet
Aug 3, 2004, 04:05 PM
You're doing on-site work for a year for the price of a G5? Wow, you're cheap! ...or, more likely, this isn't a full-time gig.

Not to be mean, but it seems you'd be better off taking cash, and using it to pay off a G5 that you've bought yourself, rather than dealing with allowing a client to dictate your choice of tools.

stoid
Aug 3, 2004, 04:06 PM
What is the difference in price between the Dell and the PowerMac? Is it closer to $200 or $800?

h4ckintosh
Aug 3, 2004, 05:23 PM
But what should I use to my defense?

dswoodley
Aug 3, 2004, 05:26 PM
What is the difference in price between the Dell and the PowerMac? Is it closer to $200 or $800?

exactly, work up a spec comparison. If you get a close number, the economic opposition argument goes out the window.

r6girl
Aug 3, 2004, 05:35 PM
just a thought - if you already have mac versions of the software you'll need to do the job, this could be a big point. if they want you to have a dell instead, you'd need the pc versions of all that software, which would cost quite a bit, right? total up the cost of new pc software you'd need and add it to the price of the dell in your comparison...

marianne

smllpx
Aug 3, 2004, 05:50 PM
What is the difference in price between the Dell and the PowerMac? Is it closer to $200 or $800?

Closer to $800.

Dell 8400
3.4 GHz P4
1 GB DDR2 400MHz
PCI-E 128 MB Radion x300
160 GB SATA
~$1725

Apple
Dual 2 GHz G5
1 GB DDR 400MHz
GeForce FX 5200 64 MB
160 GB SATA
~$2649

I use Photoshop on Windows and Mac, they are just about identical. As far as MySQL/PHP it is available for both. Learn Windows, knowing two OS's will make you more marketable. You won't always be able to choose what you can use at work (unless you are the boss). Look, I love my mac, but, it isn't the end-all of computers. There are somethings Windows does better *gasp* (like the interface is easier to navigate with only the keyboard) and something Mac does better (like its UNIX-like underpinnings).

Computers are just tools. If you only have a hammer, everything begins looking like a nail.

Mord
Aug 3, 2004, 05:53 PM
mac draws less power on a power bill and wont break down so you can work uninterupted.

Coca-Cola
Aug 3, 2004, 05:55 PM
Oh man, I know of your pain. My workplace uses Unix with Windows 98 on gateway pentium 2's. You want to talk about a disaster. We have a small business and the Panther would be perfect to use with our unix system. But my boss is a windows geek. We have a eMac just sitting in our garage left over from a contest no one claimed. It has been back there about a year now, in the box. It will probably sit there forever. In the meantime we use unix with some crude of an emulator on Windows. It stinks. Mei, I think it is called. Damn them all to hell. :mad:

Mord
Aug 3, 2004, 05:56 PM
(like the interface is easier to navigate with only the keyboard) and something Mac does better (like its UNIX-like underpinnings).

thats strange i'm quite happy useing my mac with my keyboard. there are a few differences in the keyboard short cuts and settings have to be changed but it's perfectly fine.

jsw
Aug 3, 2004, 05:58 PM
We have a eMac just sitting in our garage left over from a contest no one claimed. It has been back there about a year now, in the box. It will probably sit there forever.

Any way to claim the winning ticket for that contest? I'd love to help reduce the amount of junk in the garage and would happily pay shipping!

thehuncamunca
Aug 3, 2004, 06:04 PM
why do you say the mac draws less power, i would image the PC would since it only has one processor not 2 like the powermac

mac draws less power on a power bill and wont break down so you can work uninterupted.

Coca-Cola
Aug 3, 2004, 06:14 PM
I put a ticket in that contest for the garaged eMac. I am afraid to ask for the machine. I bet I could get it for a steal, but I know I will be extremely pissed if my boss says anything negative about Macs. He sucks. I know he will call it a toy or something, Are you sure you want that? It's only 1ghz? God, I really hate that guy. I won't be able to contain my rage. Tobe :o

Mord
Aug 3, 2004, 06:17 PM
why do you say the mac draws less power, i would image the PC would since it only has one processor not 2 like the powermac

a p4 prescott draws well over 100w a 970fx g5 draws 20-25w (at 2.0GHz)

so you could run a quad g5 at the same power level as one p4

jsw
Aug 3, 2004, 06:21 PM
I put a ticket in that contest for the garaged eMac. I am afraid to ask for the machine. I bet I could get it for a steal, but I know I will be extremely pissed if my boss says anything negative about Macs. He sucks. I know he will call it a toy or something, Are you sure you want that? It's only 1ghz? God, I really hate that guy. I won't be able to contain my rage. Tobe :o

Hmmm. Five minutes of contained rage might yield a free eMac. Sounds like you'd come out ahead... Let him think of it as a toy - who cares?

But, if you don't want to ask him, PM me w/his phone number/email. I'll say an anonymous source said it was there and I'll take it off his hands....

jared_kipe
Aug 3, 2004, 06:25 PM
No kidding, I know somebody who could use a good emac. Or even a bad one.

Sun Baked
Aug 3, 2004, 06:46 PM
the computer is the only thing...I'm not getting paid (instead of them paying for a guy that works for $50/hour) ...I sure hope this will be work done from home, instead of "at the office"

If it WERE at their office, it would probably be against the labor law in the state they are trying to do this.

Working a year with no pay, for the "hope" of a year-end bonus that they are depreciating on the books for the entire year. :eek:

Most state’s require minimum payment of "minimum wage" for any peon employee unless they are top management. Plus you'd need the cash to offset the tax impact of the machine (ie, increased withholdings.)

If the company goes under or has creditor problems during the year, you won't get paid.

Unless the company legally transfers the computer to you at the beginning of the job -- via written contract (without anything transferring complete and total ownership in writing, it belongs company to any smart creditor.)

Or worse yet they can fire you and keep the machine for any number of reasons.

If the computer is the only payment, it shouldn't be, for labor law and tax purposes, you should be negotiating the equipment you want and only the equipment you want -- if you don't get it, don't do the job.

---

The tax situation is, there are no withholdings on this type of payment. And the IRS is quite picky about both parties paying tax on this expensive of a gift/bonus/payement.

Heck they don't like $5 gift certificates to employees being handed out without taxes due.

Of course they wouldn't likely tax a $5 USB mouse, since it is of nominal value and not cash equivalent.

unixkid
Aug 3, 2004, 07:25 PM
this is an equal system setup! not the P4 vs Dual G5.


3DBOXX 8212: $5,971.00

Dual Intel Xeon Processors up to 3.60GHz with 800MHz system bus
1GB DDR400 SDRAM (PC3200) - 2x512
250GB Serial ATA - 7200rpm
(8) DIMM Slots
(1) 8x AGP Slot
(3) PCI-X Slots
(1) PCI Slot
(2) Gigabit Ethernet ports
(6) USB 2.0 Ports:
(3) IEEE1394 Ports
(2) 5.25" Exposed Drive Bays



PowerMac G5: $2,799.00

Dual 2GHz PowerPC G5 Dual 1ghz system bus
1GB DDR400 SDRAM (PC3200) - 2x512
250GB Serial ATA - 7200rpm
(8) DIMM Slots
(1) 8x AGP Slot
(3) PCI-X Slots
(1) Gigabit Ethernet ports
(5) USB 2.0 Ports:
(3) IEEE1394 Ports
(1) 5.25" Exposed Drive Bays

Keep in mind that the G5 is 60% faster than the Xeon in Photoshop and 46% cheaper! You will save $3200! with that much saved plus time saved u could go out and buy an even better PowerMac and have 2 or go get a couple of those GORGEOUS cinema displays for more desktop space for Photoshop and have PERFECT color.

Makosuke
Aug 3, 2004, 07:46 PM
Pointless Mac vs. PC arguments aside, there's not much to tell you other than saying "I get a computer I want to work on, or you get somebody else to do the job." That's certainly what I'd say, particularly if I wasn't getting paid properly for the work. Sounds like maybe this is an internship of some sort (I hope so, if it's unpaid work)? If so, that's about all you can really do.

If you do want to try to make an argument, there's only three that might get you anywhere:

1) Spec out a Dell that costs the same or a bit more than the G5 (not hard, obviously; doesn't matter if it's quite equivalent or not, or if there are cheaper options available). Then tell the boss-type that this is the Dell you'd need to do your work, but the G5 is cheaper and you'd be more productive and happier on it.

2) Settle for a much cheaper Mac--an eMac or laptop--that's in the same price range as the Dell in question.

3) Tell him you'll work much more efficiently on the Mac (which I certainly hope is true, or you SHOULD be getting a Dell... er, let's say IBM), and it has the tools that you'll need to get your job done effectively. I'm assuming this is the truth

There is actually a huge 4th argument, and that would be VirtualPC, but that won't run on the G5 you want untill MS can get VPC7 out the door this fall. The advantage of VPC is you can have multiple versions of Windows running simultaneously, each with a different configuration (most importantly IE5 on one and IE6 on another), in addition to Mac-native versions of Opera, Mozilla, and Safari. This lets you test markup on a complete range of browsers without having to install multiple OSes on the Windows machine you'd be working on, and having to bother with restarts every time you wanted to test someting.

If the project is long enough, then maybe that'll still be a good enough argument (by the time it ships in the Fall, you'll be ready to use it), but that's assuming that MS actually meets a constantly-slipping ship date.

smllpx
Aug 4, 2004, 10:28 AM
thats strange i'm quite happy useing my mac with my keyboard. there are a few differences in the keyboard short cuts and settings have to be changed but it's perfectly fine.

I said Windows does it better, not that it can't be done on the Mac. The Alt key on a windows box is very helpful and there isn't something as useful on the Mac. I was just illustrating a point that there isn't a perfect computer system, not slamming the Mac.

Also, the reason I speced out a P4 instead of a Xeon is because web design photoshop doesn't require any heavy lifting and is probably what his employer is looking at.

unixkid, why did you spec out a 3DBOXX when you know they are going Dell? I just speced out a dual Xeon 3 GHz system for $2700 (ok minus 2 DIMM slots, a few PCI-X, but really how many PCI-X slots do you need?).

Makosuke makes some good arguments about testing on multiple platforms. Too bad VPC7 isn't out for the G5 yet because that could be a slam dunk.

There really is not good reason, I have seen, that you need a dual G5. Like Makosuke said, why not a laptop or and eMac?

Look all I am saying is that quiting over what platform you use isn't a good idea. (not even getting into the whole not paid thing) Unless you are the boss or are hired to make the technology choices you will have to work with the tools they give you.

One more thing the 970fx uses 50 watts (the 970 used 66). <- from: http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2004/02/20040217093607.shtml

further disclosure: I own a Powerbook, a Windows workstation, a few x86 Linux servers and at work I use a Powermac, a Windows 2003 Server, a Windows Workstation. In the past I have built and administered IRIX, Solaris, and HP-UX servers (not workstations) My only point is that I am not here to bash any OS or platform and when you have worked on enough different ones you find they can all suck in someway or another. especially HP-UX. ;)

h4ckintosh
Aug 4, 2004, 10:46 AM
well, I thank you all for the information thus far. Here are my comparisons from various PC vendors, spec wise, as close as I could get them to the G5's.
I also forgot to mention, I am working as an intern.

Dell - XPS
$3,048
Single Pentium 4 processor at 3.4 GHz clock speed
160GB HDD
1GB RAM

Compaq - GX500T
$2,614
Single Pentium 4 processor at 3.4 GHz clock speed
160GB HDD
1GB RAM

Gateway - 700GX
$3,399
Single Pentium 4 processor at 3.4 GHz clock speed
160GB HDD
1GB RAM

Alienware - MJ-12 X2
$4,534
Dual Xeon processors at 3.6GHz clock speed
160GB HDD
1GB RAM

They were our variables, now heres the control...
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Apple - Dual 2.0GHz G5 (refurbed and w/ RAM upgrade)
$2,149
Dual G5 processors at 2.0GHz clock speed
160GB HDD
1GB RAM
------------------------------------------------------------------

broken_keyboard
Aug 4, 2004, 11:02 AM
Tell him you need a Mac so that you can ensure the site is Mac compatible...

cslewis
Aug 4, 2004, 11:32 AM
why do you say the mac draws less power, i would image the PC would since it only has one processor not 2 like the powermac

code is simpler

Crikey
Aug 7, 2004, 04:48 AM
I agree with previous posters that there is a significant chance h4ckintosh will get ripped off in this "work for a year but get paid only with a computer" arrangement. I personally wouldn't go there.

Look at it this way: $2900 is only three months even at minimum wage (full time). It would be safer to work for the money and buy your own G5.

Certainly, if my only payment for a job were to be a computer, it would need to be the computer I wanted to get, not the cheaper one the employer wanted to buy me.

Good luck, h4ckintosh.


Crikey

Mord
Aug 7, 2004, 04:52 AM
yeah dude, can you tell us what the deal is with your job, it sounds like they are ripping you off, unless your working like 2 hours a week.

Colonel Panik
Aug 7, 2004, 06:07 AM
I am doing a Web Design job for a small local company, and am on-site for about the next year. I do alot of Photoshop and PHP/MySQL stuff, and am requesting a 2.0GHz G5 with 1GB RAM. The problem is, they say that a Mac is uneconomical, and say that I should use a Dell instead! My project begins in a month, so I was wondering: What could I do to persuade them into making the purchase? :rolleyes: :mad: :confused:

I would also say to your employer that the Mac holds its value for longer. After a year, that Dell won't get you much on the second hand market, whereas the Mac will be worth more. In that respect, if they pay you with a Dell, then by the end of the job, the Dell has depreciated more in value.

Also, what system is the web site going to run on when it's up and running? If it's going to be hosted by a UNIX server, then you could promote the UNIX underpinnings of Mac OS X. It is also much much simpler (for me anyway) to configure Mac OS X to use mySQL/PHP/Apache/Postfix than it is to do the same on Windows.

If they go the Mac route, you've also got the software savings of no AntiVirus utilities, not to mention the time saved by not having to worry about it and do things about it.

Then there's the other point someone made about software. Do you own Photoshop for Mac and Windows? Does your boss? What about other software? Purchasing new software is expensive.

Finally, point to his car. I'm sure it's not the most economical variety (knowing Americans). He didn't base his choice of car on economy (or worse, cheapness).

Apart from making the points above, I don't understand the arrangement here. It seems a bit dodgy to me. Real people get paid in real money. Accounting states that the value of computers depreciates by 1/3 per year (except in rare cases). Your employer will have to have that machine on the books for 3 years. Sounds like a scam to me on his part. He buys a new computer and doesn't pay for an employee? What about contributions and taxes?

It would seem to me that the best way to work is for you to go to him, get a brief for the website, and charge him per project, not per hour. That's much more efficient for both parties. Then again, this would mean that you'll have to be registered for taxes, etc.

But $50/hour works out at $2,000/week. They'll save money on you in the second week...? And they're complaining about $800 difference?

Enough rambling for me. Time to go mountain biking...

Abstract
Aug 7, 2004, 06:12 AM
Well since he's not giving us details about his work and why he's doing it for free, I'm assuming it's because there are more details that would make his argument seem weaker. :rolleyes:

Anyway, many of you are saying things like, "Well, a similarly specced Dell would cost almost as much, maybe more!" While that may (or may not ;) ) be true, the fact remains that he doesn't "need" a computer of the spec of a Dual 2.0GHz G5 to do his work, or any similarly specced PC. You're telling him to convince his boss that a similarly specced PC would cost more, but he'll just ask you why you need such specs to do the job to begin with?

Ask for something reasonable if they don't have a reasonable computer to use. I'd laugh in your face if you asked me for a $2100+ computer because its the best machine for what you do when a 2.2 GHz P4 is sitting in a corner. If they don't have a reasonable computer to work with, they should buy you a cheaper P4 with 1GB of RAM and a decent size HDD.

kant
Aug 7, 2004, 08:10 PM
We have a eMac just sitting in our garage left over from a contest no one claimed. It has been back there about a year now, in the box. It will probably sit there forever.


Tell your boss I'll give him a $100 and a win2k license for it.

:)

Seriously.

:)

BrianKonarsMac
Aug 7, 2004, 09:36 PM
code is simpler i hope you're joking...simple code and power draw have nothing to do with one another. it's the efficiency of the chip and motherboard.

anyways, whoever said a G5 only uses 25 watts of power is way off. I don't remember the exact numbers, but it's much closer to 100, I think it was like 75-80, which is pretty damn good for what it is.

BrianKonarsMac
Aug 7, 2004, 09:38 PM
Well since he's not giving us details about his work and why he's doing it for free, I'm assuming it's because there are more details that would make his argument seem weaker. :rolleyes:

Anyway, many of you are saying things like, "Well, a similarly specced Dell would cost almost as much, maybe more!" While that may (or may not ;) ) be true, the fact remains that he doesn't "need" a computer of the spec of a Dual 2.0GHz G5 to do his work, or any similarly specced PC. You're telling him to convince his boss that a similarly specced PC would cost more, but he'll just ask you why you need such specs to do the job to begin with?

Ask for something reasonable if they don't have a reasonable computer to use. I'd laugh in your face if you asked me for a $2100+ computer because its the best machine for what you do when a 2.2 GHz P4 is sitting in a corner. If they don't have a reasonable computer to work with, they should buy you a cheaper P4 with 1GB of RAM and a decent size HDD.

if the computer is his payment, he should get what he wants. for a year's worth of maintanenance, that's pretty inexpensive when you think about it.

jsalzer
Aug 8, 2004, 12:56 AM
Well, I'm assuming that this isn't the job that is paying for your rent or for your food, which leaves you in the power position. It's not worth your time and effort to maintain a web site for a year without the compensation you're seeking. Would they rather go through the process of finding someone else they can trust who will work for so little?

Assuming that the main goal here is to offer a little time and talent to buy a computer that you otherwise couldn't afford, it wouldn't be worth doing it for a computer you don't want.

So, if they budgetted the 1800 for this project that the Dell would have cost them, why not just agree that they'll contribute 1800 toward the DPG5 and you'll pay the rest. You end up with a really great deal on a DPG5, and they paid what they had expected to pay. Everyone's happy.

Just a thought. ;)

maxterpiece
Aug 8, 2004, 02:59 AM
There is actually a huge 4th argument, and that would be VirtualPC, but that won't run on the G5 you want untill MS can get VPC7 out the door this fall. The advantage of VPC is you can have multiple versions of Windows running simultaneously, each with a different configuration (most importantly IE5 on one and IE6 on another), in addition to Mac-native versions of Opera, Mozilla, and Safari. This lets you test markup on a complete range of browsers without having to install multiple OSes on the Windows machine you'd be working on, and having to bother with restarts ever.

Virtual PC for PC already exists. It always you to run multiple versions of windows at the same time, or just have multiple systems loaded up. It is also cheaper than VPC for Mac. That doesn't rule out the fact that macs can also test the compatibility of Mac browsers, but since when have you known anyone to care about that?

Mord
Aug 8, 2004, 05:27 AM
i hope you're joking...simple code and power draw have nothing to do with one another. it's the efficiency of the chip and motherboard.

anyways, whoever said a G5 only uses 25 watts of power is way off. I don't remember the exact numbers, but it's much closer to 100, I think it was like 75-80, which is pretty damn good for what it is.


the 970 draws on average 50 and peaks at 70ish

the 970fx draws on average 25w and peaks at 40ish

these figures are are at 2.0GHz.