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arn
Jul 25, 2002, 09:51 AM
This ATI Press Release (http://www.ati.com/companyinfo/press/2002/4521.html) reports that the Radeon 7500 is the card of choice in the PowerMac G4:

The RADEON 7000 will be featured in the IBM NetVista™ M Series, the HP Compaq Presario 6000 series and the Dell™ Precision™ Workstation 340 while the RADEON 7500 is the card of choice for Apple's PowerMac™ G4, Hewlett-Packard's EVO-310, Fujitsu's FMV-DESKPOWER and Dell's Optiplex™ GX260.


Only the low-end (PowerMac G4 800) offering currently supplies the 7500 as a standard config, while others utilize the NVidia GeForce.

bobky
Jul 25, 2002, 10:15 AM
Woot! :)

astrocity20
Jul 25, 2002, 10:18 AM
I wish they'd give the iMacs better graphics cards. Geforce MXs just don't cut it, specially for a computer that won't be upgradeable. But then again maybe they want them to not last that long so they'll have to buy something else. *shrugs*

fitzg2md05
Jul 25, 2002, 10:19 AM
i got nothing against ATI. They make great products. But....no. Card of choice? Its not even the standard card. Not to mention, it sounds like people who are using ATI are using the 8500? Im all for good old bragging, but when advertising comes so close to a flat out lie, it kind of makes me take a step back and go, "huh?".

AlphaTech
Jul 25, 2002, 10:24 AM
Actually, fitz, if you look at the origin post of this thread, and/or check the Apple online store, you will see that the G4 800MHz TOWER comes standard with the ATI 7500 card.

With ATI coming out with the 9000 Pro and 9700 video cards (for both Mac and pc) they are making a stronger showing.

Most people use the 8500 card becuase that is the top of the line from ATI. I have one inside my game pc at the moment. As soon as I can get the 9700 for it, I will. I am having my computer part supplier check on availablity dates and see what he can do for the price for me. It shouldn't be too hard for them to sell it to me for less then list, considering how much business I (and the company I work for) has given them over the past few years. I sometimes get items for myself from them at either cost (their cost) or just above it (a few percent). All to keep me coming back for more (like I would use anyone else at this time :D).

Sublime
Jul 25, 2002, 10:26 AM
I don't get it. Doesn't Nvidia whip ATI? Aren't the Latest ATI's the 9000 series? WTF? ATI 7xxx is weak right?

AlphaTech
Jul 25, 2002, 10:41 AM
The 7500 card is more of a consumer level then a pro level. The 8500 rocks/kicks serious ass. The 9000 Pro and 9700 are [current] cutting edge, kicking all comers ass. :D At least until nVidia releases their next GPU and/or driver update/patch/fix. That is what they did when the 8500 came out (which kicked their [nVidia] ass)... They released better drivers (which should have been out long before that) just to stay competative with the 64MB 8500 card.

ATI fully supports OpenGL, as well as the next level of directX (on peecees) with their cards.

Personally, since I have never had ANY issues with ATI cards, I will continue to support them with my money. Just as I will whole heartidly support AMD for peecee processors (I'll be damned if I ever buy an intel processor).

Support the underdog, purchase products from Apple, ATI, and AMD... :D

G4-Altivec
Jul 25, 2002, 10:43 AM
Right now (well in 30 days) the 9700 will be king. I believe it is 48% faster than Nvidia's fastest. Nvidia will probably be back on top but it won't be until about Christmas. When I get my new powermac (if they ever release them) my order of priority for a graphics card is
1) ATI 9700
2) Nvidia Titanium

drastik
Jul 25, 2002, 10:49 AM
Ati's are good cards. I know a lot of you would like the 8500 to be standard, but its more than most need, if you need that, just throw one in. Everydody is looking for Pro machines, and for most enterprise, this is plenty pro. If your into Games or serious rendering business, your going to add more hardware anyway, thats the nature of a pro system unless its BTO.:D

Wes
Jul 25, 2002, 10:51 AM
All the while I'm reading this thread, I'm thinking of the patheticness of my ati rage 128, with 4 megs. How much does the 9700 have, 64, 128?


BTW This is my 100th post, pretty good from 30 and month ago.

esome
Jul 25, 2002, 11:01 AM
the head/title of the press release (which is dated with today's date) reads:

RADEON™ 7000 and RADEON™ 7500 chosen by Apple, Hewlett-Packard, Fujitsu, IBM, and Dell for new PCs

Does "new PC" refer to the existing line or the coming one? Existing I guess, but as noted in a previous post, the 7500 is not the default config for most of the Powermac line. I'm assuming that will be the case with coming line of Powermacs as well. In fact, hopefully we'd see the 9000 or 9700 in the high-end boxes with the 8500 or geforce4 in the lower end. This press release seems kinda weird to me.

blogo
Jul 25, 2002, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by G4-Altivec
Right now (well in 30 days) the 9700 will be king. I believe it is 48% faster than Nvidia's fastest. Nvidia will probably be back on top but it won't be until about Christmas. When I get my new powermac (if they ever release them) my order of priority for a graphics card is
1) ATI 9700
2) Nvidia Titanium

So Nvidia will update their graphics cards when the ATI 9700 mac edition is almost finished.

pgwalsh
Jul 25, 2002, 11:27 AM
I'm using an OEM version of the ATI Radeon 8500 64MB. The OEM version is slightly slower than the original, but it cost $149 as opposed to $300.00 for the consumer version. I wonder if Apple uses the OEM version of the 7500? These versions usually have the clock speed bumped down. Does anyone know how to overclock these cards?

menoinjun
Jul 25, 2002, 11:31 AM
Where's the talk about the new matrox cards? When are they out? Its supposed to kicks some serious butt AND to support 3 monitors.

Pete

AlphaTech
Jul 25, 2002, 11:42 AM
The 9000 Pro has 64MB and the 9700 has 128MB. Both the Mac and pc version of the 9000 have the 64MB, so I would wager that both of the 9700's will have 128MB.

pg, is that inside a Mac or pc???

As for the matrox cards, until we actually see them shipping, with prices, I will hold off on even thinking about them.

The new 9700 has some real serious spec's... check them out.

barkmonster
Jul 25, 2002, 11:42 AM
Isn't the Radeon 9000 Mac Edition faster than a GeForce 3, slower than a GeForce 4 Ti but about as expensive as a GeForce4 MX ?

It would make sense for apple to drop the GeForce4 MX in favour of the Radeon 9000, here's a few reasons :

1. The mid range towers and above will be fully dual display capable, you can get DVI - ADC and ADC - DVI adapters fairly cheaply and that means any G4 tower could be configured with any combination of ADC or DVI displays like the GeForce4 Ti can.

2. More choice for 3D people or just gamers, both need fast GPUs for what they want to do, a Radeon 9000 would handle perfectly acceptable framerates and look very smooth due to truform and FSAA being less of a performance hit while the GeForce4 Ti would have higher framerates but more jagged images.

3. Why pay more for a slightly faster graphics card that doesn't really offer any more than the entry level card all things concidered. You're getting faster performance than the Radeon 7500 and more features than the GeForce4 MX, the Radeon 9000 makes perfect sense as a mid range card for the towers.

pgwalsh
Jul 25, 2002, 11:43 AM
Nevermind about how to overclock the ATI card. The Rage3d site has a program called Rage3D Tweak that aids in this task.

pgwalsh
Jul 25, 2002, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by AlphaTech
pg, is that inside a Mac or pc???

It's inside a pc that I built. I wish it was in a my Mac. My mac has PCI and no AGP. ouch! Hopefully next month I'll buy a new one.

bevo
Jul 25, 2002, 11:53 AM
boasting about a ati 7500 isnt really boasting about anything. the 7500 is a tweaked original radeon. Some laptops use this card now.

I would expect them to at least put a 8500/9000 in the power macs as the low end option. Its not as old or slow.

the 9700 will be out soon enough and looks to be an amazing card. But Im not sure we'll see apple offer it with the powermacs.

IT really is disappointing to see apple ***** ppl over with using the the gf*mx series of cards.

for the same price and better performance you can get an ati card.

job
Jul 25, 2002, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by pgwalsh
Nevermind about how to overclock the ATI card. The Rage3d site has a program called Rage3D Tweak that aids in this task.

You could also check http://www.xlr8yourmac.com if you really wanted to fiddle with your GPU.

AlphaTech
Jul 25, 2002, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by pgwalsh
It's inside a pc that I built. I wish it was in a my Mac. My mac has PCI and no AGP. ouch! Hopefully next month I'll buy a new one.

I've done both the oem and retail route for the game pc... I've had better results with the retail version. For one thing, you can get support a lot easier.

Originally posted by bevo
the 7500 is a tweaked original radeon. Some laptops use this card now.

Not true... the 7500 card acutally has a new gpu (the 7500 gpu) just as the 7000, 8500, 9000, and 9700 all have different/new GPU's.

Saying that the 7500 is just a tweaked original Radeon, is like saying the gforce 4 is just a tweaked gforce 2. :rolleyes:

bevo
Jul 25, 2002, 01:26 PM
not at all. sure the 7500 might be a bit different from the original radeon. a little here and there but its not completly different. The original benchmarks have it performing I guess between a gf2mx and a gf4mx now.

id say the 7500 is as different from the original radeon as the new ati 9000 is from the 8500.

and to say its like a geforce 2 to a geforce 4? thats ludicrous(sp?)


Id say if you had to compare it at all it might be geforce 3 (original) to a geforce ti500.

AlphaTech
Jul 25, 2002, 01:51 PM
Listen up ya twit (word of the year :p), the 7500 GPU IS a differnent GPU then used in the previous ATI cards. Just as the 8500 GPU, 9000 GPU and 9700 GPU are all different (going into the cards with the same numbers).

IF you can think back far enough, you will remember that the 7000, 7500, and 8500 ALL came out when the gf3 was the hot deal. The 8500 blew it's nuts off. :p Just as the 9700 will do for the current 'top end' gf cards.

In the original press release for these cards ATI refers to them as "second-generation RADEON chip and board technologies". Notice the second generation??? Where have we seen generations before?? Maybe the G3 and G4 processors??? Would you really call a G4 processor a 'tweaked' G3?? If you do, then you know less then Jack Shît. :rolleyes:

For those that WANT to read the press release, you can find it here (http://www.ati.com/companyinfo/press/2001/4400.html).

Pants
Jul 25, 2002, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by G4-Altivec
Right now (well in 30 days) the 9700 will be king. I believe it is 48% faster than Nvidia's fastest. Nvidia will probably be back on top but it won't be until about Christmas. When I get my new powermac (if they ever release them) my order of priority for a graphics card is
1) ATI 9700
2) Nvidia Titanium


however, currently openGL uses none of the features you are really paying for with these cards. Which really makes me wonder why us mac users ever buy the real top-notch cards in the first place? money to burn? probably....

Pants
Jul 25, 2002, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by G4-Altivec
Right now (well in 30 days) the 9700 will be king. I believe it is 48% faster than Nvidia's fastest. Nvidia will probably be back on top but it won't be until about Christmas. When I get my new powermac (if they ever release them) my order of priority for a graphics card is
1) ATI 9700
2) Nvidia Titanium


however, currently openGL uses none of the features you are really paying for with these cards. Which really makes me wonder why us mac users ever buy the real top-notch cards in the first place? money to burn? probably....

AlphaTech
Jul 25, 2002, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by Pants
however, currently openGL uses none of the features you are really paying for with these cards. Which really makes me wonder why us mac users ever buy the real top-notch cards in the first place? money to burn? probably....

The current line of ATI cards fully support OpenGL and all that it entails. They do this for both the Mac and pc systems. On the pc side, ATI has always supported the current AND next generation of DirectX, where you are lucky if nVidia supports the current one (until a while later with one of their driver updates :rolleyes: ).

The ATI cards also do more then just use OpenGL for their renders, so there is more to a video card then JUST OpenGL support (having it is a huge bonus).

With your train of though, do you 'wonder' why people want their new Mac's with L3 cache?? :rolleyes: :eek: :p

Kid Red
Jul 25, 2002, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by bevo
boasting about a ati 7500 isnt really boasting about anything. the 7500 is a tweaked original radeon. Some laptops use this card now.

I would expect them to at least put a 8500/9000 in the power macs as the low end option. Its not as old or slow.

the 9700 will be out soon enough and looks to be an amazing card. But Im not sure we'll see apple offer it with the powermacs.

IT really is disappointing to see apple ***** ppl over with using the the gf*mx series of cards.

for the same price and better performance you can get an ati card.

I have to disagree. I have the GF4 in my dual and looked into getting the 7500 but the GF4 kicked the 7500's ass in 90% of the tests. So I don't think Apple is screwing anyone, they put the best cards in the towers that were out. Simple.

Maeglin OSX
Jul 25, 2002, 03:09 PM
ATI has some cool new stuff coming but I wouldn't rule out Nvidia coming out with some new card soon too. It's probably quite true that Nvidia knew about the 9000 and the 9700 way before we did. Nvidia has a history of making better cards than ATI. I've read about Nvidia's new technology they're working on and it sounds very promising. I think we can expect to see new Nvidia cards sooner than we think.

Pants
Jul 25, 2002, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by AlphaTech


The current line of ATI cards fully support OpenGL and all that it entails. They do this for both the Mac and pc systems. On the pc side, ATI has always supported the current AND next generation of DirectX, where you are lucky if nVidia supports the current one (until a while later with one of their driver updates :rolleyes: ).

The ATI cards also do more then just use OpenGL for their renders, so there is more to a video card then JUST OpenGL support (having it is a huge bonus).

With your train of though, do you 'wonder' why people want their new Mac's with L3 cache?? :rolleyes: :eek: :p

um... excuse me mr rolleyes, but what is the point of supporting the next generation of anything when, by definition, its not around yet? :)

If you actually stopped and thought, before reaching for your keyboard and trying to flame, you may just question what the point of paying top dollar for a video card that is optimised for dx8.1 and 9, when its not available on this platform. Yes, you do pay for it, and no you can't use those optimisations.

On top of that, you may indeed question why you'd want a card that supports dx9 anyway, given that there aren't any games utilising it and nor will there be for quite some time. The comparison to level 3 cache is fatuous - your machine actually uses it, unlike dx9.

Joshlew
Jul 25, 2002, 04:13 PM
Apple should stick with Nvidia if they know whats good for them!:mad:

G4-Altivec
Jul 25, 2002, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by Pants



however, currently openGL uses none of the features you are really paying for with these cards. Which really makes me wonder why us mac users ever buy the real top-notch cards in the first place? money to burn? probably....

The reason I'm going for the best card that I can get is because I usually keep my systems for a few years and I'm really not the upgrading kind of guy. I have a G4/450 with ATI 128pro and a dual G4/450 with a Radeon. From my experience the first thing that starts to age is the graphics card. I figure if I buy one of the top end cards even though all features aren't implemented yet, I'll keep getting pleasently surprised everytime openGL gets updated and boosts the performance. Sorry, I have no money to burn. Well except that I keep buying Macs , but that's a different storey:D

AlphaTech
Jul 25, 2002, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by Pants
On top of that, you may indeed question why you'd want a card that supports dx9 anyway, given that there aren't any games utilising it and nor will there be for quite some time.

I'm sure you were saying the same thing about dx 8.1 while 8 was the current DX version, until 8.1 came out. Supporting the next version is forward thinking. You also don't have to worry about needing to update the drivers or bios/firmware later to ADD support to the product if it has it right from the start. :p

For the record, people use MORE then JUST Mac's, even here. For the Mac's I'm fairly certain that the cards will support the next OpenGL version, even though it's not out just yet.

As with most things, you get what you pay for. When you get a top end video card, you know that you won't have any problems running software (games) that are in development now. How many people figured that X video card would be all they would ever need, only to have Y game come out which had it listed as the minimum (=piss poor performance).

hal9000
Jul 25, 2002, 05:15 PM
More puzzling developments this week -

Pixar announces they have settled their lawsuit against Exluna, and that Exluna is being taken over by Nvidia. Entropy and BMRT are no longer available, and the developers will presumably be working on the Cg project.

:confused:

GPTurismo
Jul 25, 2002, 10:02 PM
ATI has promised the world before, and had tech demos, repeat, TECH DEMOS that kicked Nvidia's rear. But never delivered in real life. Nvidia's updates to firmware, and just outstanding driver support make ATI look like a joke.

Sorry, the future is the former sgi graphic geniuses, Nvidia...

PCUser
Jul 25, 2002, 11:00 PM
[removed my irrelevant post]

Cappy
Jul 26, 2002, 12:38 AM
Originally posted by PCUser
These aren't tech demoes. :mad: The prototype silicon of the 9700, which will be out in a few weeks (for the PC, at least), kicks the GeForce4 Ti4600's ass. In the tests by Anandtech, the Radeon 9700 always outperformed the GeForce4 Ti4600, sometimes up to 54%! Oftentimes it was around 30%. No firmware update will bring the GeForce4 Ti4600 up to the level of the Radeon 9700.

Ah but if ATI's driver rep holds true then their drivers will bring the 9700 down to 4600 levels. ;)

Please don't put alot of stock into Anandtech's site when it comes to future purchasing decisions on yet to be released products. They're good for educating yourself on products and technology but they tend to get everything pre-release(hardware, drivers, etc.) and as someone pointed out once the real thing ships, it's nowhere near what the previews(many times cleverly disguised as reviews) were saying. If they would do more followups on items that shipped after their previews, I would have a different opinion of them.

BTW, same holds true for Tom's Hardware. Everything else about those two sites are great though. :)

Originally posted by PCUser
Neither ATi nor nVidia will always be the best in the graphics card business.

We all would hope that is the case but the sad truth is that nVidia has been the best in the graphics card business for a few years now(why do you think Apple hooked up with them). The 8500 was finally a little bit of a breath of fresh air for ATI. The specs have been great and on some systems the drivers actually worked like they should(note I'm referring to PC's there). They're trying to change their rep with their latest driver releases but it's going to take some time, work, and consistency.

I hope they pull it off but nVidia is a tough competitor and definitely has the mindshare in their favor.

jonper-9
Jul 26, 2002, 01:35 AM
>id say the 7500 is as different from the original radeon as the new ati 9000 is from the 8500.

>and to say its like a geforce 2 to a geforce 4? thats ludicrous(sp?)

I am sorry to say, but the GF4MX _IS_ in fact a modified GF2. If you want a real GF4, you have to go 4 the Ti.

jonper-9
Jul 26, 2002, 01:42 AM
>id say the 7500 is as different from the original radeon as the new ati 9000 is from the 8500.

>and to say its like a geforce 2 to a geforce 4? thats ludicrous(sp?)

I am sorry to say, but the GF4MX _IS_ in fact a modified GF2. If you want a real GF4, you have to go 4 the Ti.

bevo
Jul 26, 2002, 01:52 AM
when he said that I believe he was talking about the original geforce 2 and geforce 4 line. Not the MX series. the gf4mx is based off of the gf2 mx and shares nothing with the real geforce 4. Its a marketing thing by nvidia.