And everyone thought the last Administration where stupid

[stubeeef]

From the AP (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091206/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_obama_open_government) of all places!
"PROMISES, PROMISES: A closed meeting on openness"

It's hardly the image of transparency the Obama administration wants to project: A workshop on government openness is closed to the public.

The event Monday for federal employees is a fitting symbol of President Barack Obama's uneven record so far on the Freedom of Information Act, a big part of keeping his campaign promise to make his administration the most transparent ever. As Obama's first year in office ends, the government's actions when the public and press seek information are not yet matching up with the president's words.

"The Freedom of Information Act should be administered with a clear presumption: In the face of doubt, openness prevails," Obama told government offices on his first full day as president. "The government should not keep information confidential merely because public officials might be embarrassed by disclosure, because errors and failures might be revealed, or because of speculative or abstract fears."

Obama scored points on his pledge by requiring the release of detailed information about $787 billion in economic stimulus spending. It's now available on a Web site, http://www.recovery.gov. Other notable disclosures include waivers that the White House has granted from Obama's conflict-of-interest rules and reports detailing Obama's and top appointees' personal finances.

Yet on some important issues, his administration produced information only after government watchdogs and reporters spent weeks or months pressing, in some cases suing.

It goes on to talk about Iraqi detainees photos that I agree with not releasing.
I think this is Hilarious. If these are the "intellictualls"? Bring on the morons!

(Title & "intellictualls" spelled incorrectly on purpose)

[thegoldenmackid]

Yeah, she has credibility. (http://mediamatters.org/blog/200905290011)

[jb1280]

And everyone thought the last Administration where stupid

Thread title has a hint of irony.

[bobber205]

Thread title has a hint of irony.

English iz hard!

[Zombie Acorn]

Thread title has a hint of irony.

English iz hard!

Might want to read the whole post (especially the end part) :p

[Rt&Dzine]

When you can't spell, just put in a disclaimer that it was done on purpose.

[thegoldenmackid]

Congrats: Epic Fail, everyone.

[IntheNet]

Thread title has a hint of irony.

Indeed... BHO's lies seem to be documented daily... only a moron would allow a workshop on government openness closed to the public...

[stubeeef]

I often have spell words wrong.
It is well documented here over the years, I promise you-The Title and intellectuals were intentionally misspelled.

Either way, believe what you wish. The world is warming from CO2 (neither is true), a flying spaghetti monster is responsible for your life. Don't forget, abortion doesn't take a life, and D'obama will save us.

[Rt&Dzine]

Thank you. Consider us duly warned.

[Rampant.A.I.]

I often have spell words wrong.
It is well documented here over the years, I promise you-The Title and intellectuals were intentionally misspelled.

Either way, believe what you wish. The world is warming from CO2 (neither is true), a flying spaghetti monster is responsible for your life. Don't forget, abortion doesn't take a life, and D'obama will save us.


And everyone thought the last Administration where stupid. X

And everyone thought the last Administration were stupid. X

And everyone thought the last administration was stupid. √


a flying spaghetti monster is responsible for your life

Way more plausible than evolution. Right? Am I right? Right.

[stubeeef]

allrite,
nowe adressss tha ishue, wtf -y iz ther a clozd meating on openass?

[NT1440]

Wow, the stupidity thread factor has really been stepped up today....

[Zombie Acorn]

allrite,
nowe adressss tha ishue, wtf -y iz ther a clozd meating on openass?

are you drunk?

[Thomas Veil]

The world is warming from CO2 (neither is true)...neither |ˈnēðər; ˈnī-|
adjective & pronoun
not the one nor the other of two people or things; not eitherIt's hard enough getting through muddy conservative thinking, without also having to deal with mangled English.

And yeah: thread title wins this week's irony award.

[thegoldenmackid]

I often have spell words wrong.
It is well documented here over the years, I promise you-The Title and intellectuals were intentionally misspelled.

Either way, believe what you wish. The world is warming from CO2 (neither is true), a flying spaghetti monster is responsible for your life. Don't forget, abortion doesn't take a life, and D'obama will save us.

Yeah, that just sort of sums up all the reasons why Republicans get a bad name. (This is regardless of you are in fact Republican or not)

[stubeeef]

are you drunk?

I wish!
No, just trying to get by the spelling issue I was poking fun at in starting the thread. Of course-it became the issue when no one wanted to address the irony of D'Obama and the closed meeting on openness.
Like Climate-gate, it is not the content of the emails or the lack of response to FOIA requests, it is how the information was obtained. Why? Because there are no logical answers for the fundamental questions.
Whatever.

Yeah, that just sort of sums up all the reasons why Republicans get a bad name. (This is regardless of you are in fact Republican or not)
Not any more.
Had a big argument recently with the local Rep Chairman.
The only thing worse than the Republicans is the Dems. We need new parties.
When Hope & Change is now closed meetings on openness-the crazy factor is off the scale.

[NT1440]

Not any more.
Had a big argument recently with the local Rep Chairman.
The only thing worse than the Republicans is the Dems. We need new parties.
When Hope & Change is now closed meetings on openness-the crazy factor is off the scale.

Isn't this meeting where they figure out what exactly is able to be disclosed to the public? Why the hell would that in itself be open to the public? They're going to be discussing things that clearly shouldn't be leaked

[Rodimus Prime]

Welcome to problems on these boards. When something is clearly posted discrediting Obama and showing some of his many broken promises they instead nitpick at spelling to throw off the fact that Obama is just another low life politician.

[IntheNet]

Welcome to problems on these boards. When something is clearly posted discrediting Obama and showing some of his many broken promises they instead nitpick at spelling to throw off the fact that Obama is just another low life politician.

Libs ignore Obama's foibles and failures and look for anything to deflect from his incompetence...

[thegoldenmackid]

Libs ignore Obama's foibles and failures and look for anything to deflect from his incompetence...

And you talk about community organizing, Air Force One photos and a teleprompter?

The most annoying part of the vocal group of the right that exists today is the lack of ability to have an intelligent discussion.

[Rodimus Prime]

And you talk about community organizing, Air Force One photos and a teleprompter?

The most annoying part of the vocal group of the right that exists today is the lack of ability to have an intelligent discussion.

same could be said of the left. They put blinders on for anything that shows broken promises or lies

[thegoldenmackid]

same could be said of the left. They put blinders on for anything that shows broken promises or lies

I don't really think it's anywhere near the same. To some extent it's just the default response now to assume that the space for intelligent conversation cannot occur, probably started with the birth certificate movement, as well as the community organizer discussion in the midst of the Palin nomination circus.

[Rampant.A.I.]

same could be said of the left. They put blinders on for anything that shows broken promises or lies

The things I've seen brought up on this website as "broken promises and lies" are stupid, inconsequential BS.

If no one but the hardcore conservatives are flipping out over it, chances are it isn't really a big deal, and they're just mudslinging.

[Rt&Dzine]

Welcome to problems on these boards. When something is clearly posted discrediting Obama and showing some of his many broken promises they instead nitpick at spelling to throw off the fact that Obama is just another low life politician.

Did you read the title of this thread? :rolleyes: It was a cry for silly retorts.

[abijnk]

Libs ignore Obama's foibles and failures and look for anything to deflect from his incompetence...

And then there are people like you who completely ignore facts and run from threads where you are confronted with hard evidence... So how about practicing what you preach?

[freeny]

same could be said of the left. They put blinders on for anything that shows broken promises or lies

There are no broken promises until his term is over. It is either a promise kept or "in progress". Once his term is over its fair game.

Lies are something else. Is a lie a lie or is there a standard for how many lies one can tell? These are politicians were talking about...

[Zombie Acorn]

There are no broken promises until his term is over. It is either a promise kept or "in progress". Once his term is over its fair game.

Lies are something else. Is a lie a lie or is there a standard for how many lies one can tell? These are politicians were talking about...

ermm... he promised no tax hikes on people who make 250k or less... tax hikes have already happened.

[abijnk]

ermm... he promised no tax hikes on people who make 250k or less... tax hikes have already happened.

They did? I make less than 250k so I'd really like to know what you are talking about if you don't mind.

[Zombie Acorn]

They did? I make less than 250k so I'd really like to know what you are talking about if you don't mind.

Taxes on booze and ciggs have went up. Those are taxes that hit the poor the hardest :(

[thegoldenmackid]

ermm... he promised no tax hikes on people who make 250k or less... tax hikes have already happened.

There are going to be promises broken/not fulfilled, but I don't think anyone assumed perfection, except the extreme right - who assumed perfection is the only standard so that they could claim failure instantly.

For someone on the far far left:
Has Obama disappointing? Absolutely. There are plenty of promises that he indicated what get priority that don't get discussed today.
Do iThink that there was a better alternative running? Are you kidding me.
Do iThink that there is a more qualified person out there? Probably.
Do iThink Obama is doing a "bad" job? No.
Am I glad Obama was elected? Yes. I don't think that another four years of Bush would have been a good (sorry, started laughing...)

Is there anything to suggest that Obama is unqualified, solely a community organizer or not an American citizen? No. He has represented the U.S. well internationally. (Just think of Palin up there) He has Republicans in his cabinet and there seems to be at least some attempt at discussion with Republicans, despite the Tea Parties. America is still intact. No one is perfect, not even a Muslim Kenyan terrorist community organizer.

If anything Obama is just another politician. Seems the far right is in a double-bind, either:
A. Obama isn't change (most of the attacks seem to indicate this) proves that he is just another politician.
B. Obama is change. Oh Jesus, campaign slogan fulfilled.

Taxes on booze and ciggs have went up. Those are taxes that hit the poor the hardest :(
That is not the same thing. Income tax ≠ sales tax. Don't lower yourself to that.

[abijnk]

Taxes on booze and ciggs have went up. Those are taxes that hit the poor the hardest :(

Yeah, that's not income tax...

[Zombie Acorn]

There are going to be promises broken/not fulfilled, but I don't think anyone assumed perfection, except the extreme right - who assumed perfection is the only standard so that they could claim failure instantly.

For someone on the far far left:
Has Obama disappointing? Absolutely. There are plenty of promises that he indicated what get priority that don't get discussed today.
Do iThink that there was a better alternative running? Are you kidding me.
Do iThink that there is a more qualified person out there? Probably.
Do iThink Obama is doing a "bad" job? No.
Am I glad Obama was elected? Yes. I don't think that another four years of Bush would have been a good (sorry, started laughing...)

Is there anything to suggest that Obama is unqualified, solely a community organizer or not an American citizen? No. He has represented the U.S. well internationally. (Just think of Palin up there) He has Republicans in his cabinet and there seems to be at least some attempt at discussion with Republicans, despite the Tea Parties. America is still intact. No one is perfect, not even a Muslim Kenyan terrorist community organizer.

If anything Obama is just another politician. Seems the far right is in a double-bind, either:
A. Obama isn't change (most of the attacks seem to indicate this) proves that he is just another politician.
B. Obama is change. Oh Jesus, campaign slogan fulfilled.


I have more of a problem with congress then Obama right now. I didn't expect him to keep all promises, but to say that we have to wait till his term is over to realize he broke promises isn't correct.

That is not the same thing. Income tax ≠ sales tax. Don't lower yourself to that.

Taxes are taxes to me. He hasn't raised the income tax (yet) though. I even consider inflation to be a tax if its out of ordinary.

Yeah, that's not income tax...

I didn't say income tax, I said taxes.

[thegoldenmackid]

I have more of a problem with congress then Obama right now. I didn't expect him to keep all promises, but to say that we have to wait till his term is over to realize he broke promises isn't correct.
I agree with you, both sides are to blame. It's awful that while Congress thinks its a large game, there are people that are affected with their (in)ability to do anything. If the GOP wanted to actually change portions of anything they would be much better served shutting up during the State of the Union and focusing on constructive solutions, versus mindless insults. And the Democrats should realize that neither side of the country is very happy with the job that they are doing.

Taxes are taxes to me. He hasn't raised the income tax (yet) though. I even consider inflation to be a tax if its out of ordinary.
This sort of defeats your other argument. I'm pretty certain that most, including the Kenyan Muslim community organizer, believed that that promise was directed at income taxes. It's hard for him to break a promise that he didn't make.

[yg17]

You don't have to buy booze and cigs.

I fall well under the $250,000/year threshold and am right smack dab in the middle of middle class, and these taxes have had no effect on me. Why? I don't smoke, and I don't drink a lot. But if I saw that I was having difficulty paying the bills, the first thing I'd cut out of my budget is booze.

[Zombie Acorn]

This sort of defeats your other argument. I'm pretty certain that most, including the Kenyan Muslim community organizer, believed that that promise was directed at income taxes. It's hard for him to break a promise that he didn't make.

Regardless I don't agree with the policy, its a tax that effects poor people disproportionately. People aren't likely to quit even if ciggs are 7 bucks a pack. Its basically just taking away from other necessities such as food.

Incentives for change would be much better.

[thegoldenmackid]

Regardless I don't agree with the policy, its a tax that effects poor people disproportionately. People aren't likely to quit even if ciggs are 7 bucks a pack. Its basically just taking away from other necessities such as food.

Incentives for change would be much better.

It's a negative incentive to quit smoking, which the "poor" probably shouldn't be doing given the already high cost and the higher long-term costs. If it's trading off with food, then you should probably stop one of the two harmful addictions that got tax increases. As I recall the taxes on alcohol were directed at sample size bottles? Or was that a state?

[abijnk]

I didn't say income tax, I said taxes.

Ok, now I am thoroughly confused... I guess Obama should consult the Zombie Acorn Guide To What Is And Isn't Income Tax before going about his day. Get real man...

[thegoldenmackid]

Ok, now I am thoroughly confused... I guess Obama should consult the Zombie Acorn Guide To What Is And Isn't Income Tax before going about his day. Get real man...

No, we are supposed to consult IntheNet's Guide to President in the Modern Era. Gawd, uniformed liberals ;)

[Zombie Acorn]

Ok, now I am thoroughly confused... I guess Obama should consult the Zombie Acorn Guide To What Is And Isn't Income Tax before going about his day. Get real man...

I can make a firm pledge, under my plan, no family making less than $250,000 a year will see any form of tax increase. Not your income tax, not your payroll tax, not your capital gains taxes, not any of your taxes.

-BO

Not sure what context the particular quote was in, but its not the only time he didn't specify "income" taxes.

[abijnk]

No, we are supposed to consult IntheNet's Guide to President in the Modern Era. Gawd, uniformed liberals ;)

My bad, I can't keep them all straight anymore...

[bobber205]

I can make a firm pledge, under my plan, no family making less than $250,000 a year will see any form of tax increase. Not your income tax, not your payroll tax, not your capital gains taxes, not any of your taxes.

-BO

I see your point but I think we was talking about, going from his examples, taxes that hit you *no matter what*. Taxes on cigs and booze is not a tax that hits *everyone*. Technically still true but I do see what you're getting at.

[abijnk]

I can make a firm pledge, under my plan, no family making less than $250,000 a year will see any form of tax increase. Not your income tax, not your payroll tax, not your capital gains taxes, not any of your taxes.

-BO

Not sure what context the particular quote was in, but its not the only time he didn't specify "income" taxes.

But, as others have said, everyone [or so I thought] knew what kinds of taxes he was talking about...

[Zombie Acorn]

But, as others have said, everyone [or so I thought] knew what kinds of taxes he was talking about...

I took his words at face value, if he meant income taxes so be it. I am not one to hate on Obama for anything he does. I disagree with some issues like the current stimulus plan, and him trying to take the middle ground on every issue to please everyone. At the end of the day its much better than Bush especially in the international arena.

If he gets us out of iraq/afghan in a timely matter I might actually start liking him.

[Gelfin]

Say, just out of curiosity, how would you have reacted if Obama had issued an executive order forbidding every state and local government from raising any sort of tax, citing a campaign promise?

Would I be far off the mark to assume you'd point out that this is grossly unconstitutional? Because it is. At a guess, you might also suggest that Obama was jeopardizing the stability of local economies under conditions he could not possibly be briefed on individually across the entire country. You might also observe that doing so would be a cheap political stunt designed to make himself look good by "keeping his promise" at any cost.

Given one interpretation of a campaign promise that falls within the scope of authority of the office for which the politician is campaigning, and another which does not, it does not seem especially reasonable to assume the latter.

[Zombie Acorn]

Say, just out of curiosity, how would you have reacted if Obama had issued an executive order forbidding every state and local government from raising any sort of tax, citing a campaign promise?

Would I be far off the mark to assume you'd point out that this is grossly unconstitutional? Because it is. At a guess, you might also suggest that Obama was jeopardizing the stability of local economies under conditions he could not possibly be briefed on individually across the entire country. You might also observe that doing so would be a cheap political stunt designed to make himself look good by "keeping his promise" at any cost.

Given one interpretation of a campaign promise that falls within the scope of authority of the office for which the politician is campaigning, and another which does not, it does not seem especially reasonable to assume the latter.

These were federal tax hikes.

[Gelfin]

These were federal tax hikes.

On alcohol and cigarettes? Could you link that?

[Zombie Acorn]

On alcohol and cigarettes?

Hike on ciggs was to fund some child health care initiative if I recall correctly, not sure about the one on booze.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/04/01/cigarette.tax/index.html

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1562391/new_federal_alcohol_tax_on_the_way.html?cat=17

[bobber205]

Hike on ciggs was to fund some child health care initiative if I recall correctly, not sure about the one on booze.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/04/01/cigarette.tax/index.html

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1562391/new_federal_alcohol_tax_on_the_way.html?cat=17

I think I can live with Obama breaking his pledge for children's health. :D

[Gelfin]

Fair enough on the cigarettes. The alcohol link is more speculation based on the cigarette tax. Did it happen or not? Depending on the context of that quote, I might see where you'd have a legitimate criticism.

Speaking of that quote, though, I have not been able to find any context for it either. The Intertubes are clogged with right-wingers quoting only that portion so they can do their little Joe Wilson routine, and none of what goes around it. I saw the clip on YouTube, so the quote is accurate, but it was still only that quote with snarky comments attached. What plan are we talking about here? Is it the originally proposed health care plan? The one Republicans and bought-off Democrats scuttled as an act of fellatio on insurance companies?

As I recall it that is what the "under $250k" thing was about. It was not a blanket "read my lips" moment, but a promise that the health care plan he was proposing at the time could be implemented on those terms.

[Zombie Acorn]

Fair enough on the cigarettes. The alcohol link is more speculation based on the cigarette tax. Did it happen or not? Depending on the context of that quote, I might see where you'd have a legitimate criticism.

Speaking of that quote, though, I have not been able to find any context for it either. The Intertubes are clogged with right-wingers quoting only that portion so they can do their little Joe Wilson routine, and none of what goes around it. I saw the clip on YouTube, so the quote is accurate, but it was still only that quote with snarky comments attached. What plan are we talking about here? Is it the originally proposed health care plan? The one Republicans and bought-off Democrats scuttled as an act of fellatio on insurance companies?

As I recall it that is what the "under $250k" thing was about. It was not a blanket "read my lips" moment, but a promise that the health care plan he was proposing at the time could be implemented on those terms.

I watched quite a bit of the campaign coverage, the under 250k thing was before we got into health plans, I can't remember the particular context he was using it in though, it seems like it was too early for the stimulus plan either.

One of my clients owns a liquor store and was bitching about prices going up again so I assumed the federal tax went through also, I may be wrong on that part.

[Gelfin]

I watched quite a bit of the campaign coverage, the under 250k thing was before we got into health plans, I can't remember the particular context he was using it in though, it seems like it was too early for the stimulus plan either.

One of my clients owns a liquor store and was bitching about prices going up again so I assumed the federal tax went through also, I may be wrong on that part.

I found at least a substantial chunk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aa4ipe4fhU) containing the quote in question. The final clause of the sentence was stated a little too broadly, but in context the topic was federal income tax plans. Transcript:

So I just wanna, I just wanna be clear: when you're running for four more years of George Bush, that's not a good record to run on, so it's not surprising that John McCain, through his advertising, has been trying to distort and twist what our plans are and what his plans are, and I just want to make this absolutely clear: my plan altogether is a net tax cut.

My plan will cut taxes to a smaller share of the economy than they were under President Reagan. Under my plan income taxes for typical American families will be the lowest that they have been in half a century. Everyone, everyone in America, everyone, will pay lower taxes than they paid in the 1990s under Bill Clinton at a time when the economy was growing and we produced 22 million new jobs.

Under my plan middle class families will get three times as much tax relief as they do under John McCain's plan. In fact his plan gives absolutely nothing to about 100 million American households. And I can make a firm pledge: under my plan, no family making under $250,000 per year will see any form of tax increase -- not your income tax, not your payroll tax, not your capital gains taxes, not any of your taxes.

And my opponent can't make that pledge, and here's why: for the first time in American history, John McCain wants to tax your health care benefits. Apparently Senator McCain doesn't think it's enough that health care premiums have doubled, he thinks that you should have to pay taxes on them too. That's a 3.6 trillion dollar tax increase potentially on middle class families. And that would eventually leave tens of millions of you paying higher taxes or losing your benefits. That's his idea of change.

Now I do want to be fair here. Senator McCain here is offering some tax cuts. He'd spend nearly two trillion dollars over a decade in tax cuts for corporations. He'd continue the Bush tax cuts on the wealthiest Americans. His plan gives more than half a million dollars in tax cuts for households getting over 2.8 million dollars a year. That's right, 2.8 million dollars a year. Could I see a show of hands, all of you, who are making 2.8 million dollars a year or more? Okay, um, if you're shy and you make more than 2.8 million, we are looking for contributions to our campaign. And, look, I understand why Senator McCain maybe wants to give tax cuts to these folks because, you know, he defined being rich as five million dollars, so at 2.8 perhaps he things folks are scraping by.

We can't afford four more years of out-of-touch you're-on-your-own leadership in Washington. John McCain likes to rail against the Washington herd, but the truth is when it comes to issues that really matter in your lives he's been running in that herd for 26 years. They've run this economy into the ditch, and this election is our chance to stand up and say "enough is enough."

It won't be easy. They kind of change we're looking for never is. What we're up against is some very powerful, very entrenched interests. They will say anything and do anything to maintain the status quo. But you know, I feel good about our chances, because they may have all the fat cats and all the clout, but I've got you.

In this campaign, in this campaign we've already shown what history teaches us, which is, change doesn't come from Washington, it comes to Washington. It comes because ordinary people all across America stand up and say, "we want something different, we want to take this country in a new direction," and if all of you will stand with me, if all of you will work with me, if all of you will dedicate yourself in the next 53 days to making sure that American people stand up for their rights, stand up for their interests, then I promise you, we will not just win New Hampshire, we'll change the country and we'll change the world. Thank you very much, everybody.

[Shivetya]

The real reason I knew Obama supporters were clueless gits is when they all professed that he was smarter than Bush. All of that based on his ability to read from a teleprompter. Somehow that mysteriously progressed into him being more truthful.

He is only as smart and truthful as his teleprompter. When off of it he is as conniving as any politician and at a loss without words as anyone else who doesn't believe what they say in speeches.

[Iscariot]

Where stupid?

Wear stupid?

Where, stupid?

:confused:

[NT1440]

The real reason I knew Obama supporters were clueless gits is when they all professed that he was smarter than Bush. All of that based on his ability to read from a teleprompter. Somehow that mysteriously progressed into him being more truthful.

He is only as smart and truthful as his teleprompter. When off of it he is as conniving as any politician and at a loss without words as anyone else who doesn't believe what they say in speeches.
I take it you think Bush had the mental capacity to teach college level courses?

[MyDesktopBroke]

Obama only graduated from Columbia and Harvard (like that's hard, or something) due to his Kenyan birth certificate. Becoming a constitutional law professor was a brilliant plan (that required no intelligence) to learn how to destroy the US.

DUHH

[Zombie Acorn]

The real reason I knew Obama supporters were clueless gits is when they all professed that he was smarter than Bush. All of that based on his ability to read from a teleprompter. Somehow that mysteriously progressed into him being more truthful.

He is only as smart and truthful as his teleprompter. When off of it he is as conniving as any politician and at a loss without words as anyone else who doesn't believe what they say in speeches.

At the very least he doesn't embarrass the country every time he speaks. Do I think we are going down the path I would have chose? No, but as long as we continue to vote retards into Republican offices its not likely to change. The Republicans need a mass purging and some new faces.

[Rampant.A.I.]

The real reason I knew Obama supporters were clueless gits is when they all professed that he was smarter than Bush.

The real reason I know Obama is smarter than Bush is he isn't a pet rock.

[Counterfit]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLvr8twnzNk

Where stupid?

Wear stupid?

Where, stupid?

:confused:

There, wolf.

I mean, stupid.




That was a Young Frankenstein reference, right?