French tourists attack Jewish students at Auschwitz

[Awimoway]

The Jerusalem Post (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1092021256783&apage=1)

While on a tour of the museum at the Auschwitz death camp in Poland on Sunday, a group of around 50 Jewish university students from Israel, the U.S. and Poland were verbally attacked by a three-member gang of French male tourists.

Evidently incited by the presence of an Israeli flag wrapped around the shoulders of Tamar Schuri, an Israeli student from Ben Gurion University, the first assailant ran at the group while its members were being guided through a model gas chamber and crematoria and began swearing and hurling anti-Semitic and anti-Israeli insults.

"He told us to go back to Israel and said that we were stupid and should be ashamed to walk around with an Israeli flag," testifies Maya Ober, a 21-year-old Polish student...

[katchow]

that's what bugs me about these kind of articles...it reminds of a story about some german people spitting at Lance Armstrong...i come to work the next day and repeatedly hear from co-workers "did you hear what the germans did to lance?". It's all to easy for most to make the deduction, "German people hate Americans"...


i know that is a much simpler example than the israeli/french relationship...but the idea is the same.

[2jaded2care]

This is obviously just another illustration of the fact that the French are more cultured and civilized than we brutish Americans.

[takao]

that's what bugs me about these kind of articles...it reminds of a story about some german people spitting at Lance Armstrong...i come to work the next day and repeatedly hear from co-workers "did you hear what the germans did to lance?". It's all to easy for most to make the deduction, "German people hate Americans"...


i know that is a much simpler example than the israeli/french relationship...but the idea is the same.

i generally thought the same... politically the relationship between those 2 countries is very 'cold' at the moment

my guess is that those 3 guys where just idiots nothing more
i'll wait for more news about this thing

[Ugg]

my guess is that those 3 guys where just idiots nothing more
i'll wait for more news about this thing

Same here, the Jer. Post is not exactly unbiased. I wonder if anything led up to this or if it was unprovoked.

[mouchoir]

This is obviously just another illustration of the fact that the French are more cultured and civilized than we brutish Americans.

Which you just proved with that last statement.

[diamond geezer]

Jewish graves have been smashed and SWASTIKAS cut into grass on 2 occasions in my own town of Wellington just in the last few weeks.

The Government has just passed a resolution condemning anti-semitism.

In this case also, I think it is just a "couple of idiots" causing all the fuss.

The head of the NZ Jewish Council has indirectly put some of the blame on NZ getting pissed over Mossad agents getting caught trying to illegally get NZ passports.

[2jaded2care]

Which you just proved with that last statement.

Ah, it's a sad day indeed when a Brit would rather be sarcastic to a Yank instead of sarcastic about the French. :( Must be some new EU regulation.

You have to have a sense of humor about the French, after all they revere both Michael Moore and Jerry Lewis.

[katchow]

yes, you're right. we must choose sides.

my girlfriend is french, and she could care less about jerry lewis.

[skunk]

There's always one... ;)

[Desertrat]

France has long had a strong anti-Jewish portion of its population. Lots of willing cooperation with the Nazis during WW II in turning in Jews for deportation to the Nazi camps. The last decade or so has seen a rise in anti-Semitism in France...

I did the tour through Dachau, a few years back. Quite educational. Plus, my father was in on the liberation of the work camp at Dortmunder. I met a few guys during my Army daze in 1954-1958 who'd been in on the liberation of one of the death camps. "I saw..." stories from guys who were there will surely get your attention.

I have no use for the "There warn't no Holocaust!" revisionists. I definitely subscribe to the "Never Again" motto at Dachau...

I'll tell Hymie & Abie jokes and all that, but my old red neck just lights up and glows when somebody starts bad-mouthing Jews. Around me, that ain't a safe pastime...

'Rat

[Neserk]

Same here, the Jer. Post is not exactly unbiased. I wonder if anything led up to this or if it was unprovoked.

Do we have any more info on what happened?

[friarbayliff]

Yeah, the anti-semitism thing seems to always flare up when France is under some sort of stress. Currently, problems with economics, international issues, and age-old social problems seem to be bringing these old feelings out of their hiding places. I can only hope that it doesn't worsen.

[Ugg]

I just googled it and while there were many right wing nationalist sites discussing it, the only news source was the Jerusalem Post. An interesting point in the article in the JP was that the leader of the group did not bring it up with the Auschwitz staff nor did they report it to the Polish police. My guess is that there is more to the story and nobody wanted to touch it, but it would be interesting to hear what happened through another source. If the story is true, it is a travesty that it happened where so many people met such horrific deaths.

France isn't the only country with a strong anti-jewish sentiment in Europe but it sure has gotten a lot of press lately. I just read a biography on Joachim von Ribbentropp, Hitler's foreign minister, and it said that over 75% of the concentration camp leaders were non-ethnic Germans. The Baltic states produced some of the most vicious killers mainly due to strong pre-existing anti-Jewish sentiment.

[IJ Reilly]

I don't know much about French politics, but I do know that the National Front candidate Jean-Marie Le Pen polled surprisingly well in the last presidential election. The National Front is the party of anti-semitism and xenophobia in general.

[Leo Hubbard]

I just googled it and while there were many right wing nationalist sites discussing it, the only news source was the Jerusalem Post. An interesting point in the article in the JP was that the leader of the group did not bring it up with the Auschwitz staff nor did they report it to the Polish police. My guess is that there is more to the story and nobody wanted to touch it, but it would be interesting to hear what happened through another source. If the story is true, it is a travesty that it happened where so many people met such horrific deaths.


Traditionally left wing mass media won't touch a story that doesn't push their own agenda so you have to go to third party sources to get the truth.

[mouchoir]

Ah, it's a sad day indeed when a Brit would rather be sarcastic to a Yank instead of sarcastic about the French. :( Must be some new EU regulation.

You have to have a sense of humor about the French, after all they revere both Michael Moore and Jerry Lewis.

who are both products of a brutish society!

I was born in London but to french and italian immigrants. Bloodwise i'm half french half italian.

So, not many war heroes in my family (had to get in there first! :-).

[2jaded2care]

A few days old, but...

"Jewish graves desecrated in France"

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/08/10/france.cemetery.ap/index.html

I wonder if the cemetery residents provoked it somehow... :rolleyes:

"Despite a series of government measures, anti-Semitic violence has increased in recent years in France, coinciding with rising tensions between Israelis and Palestinians. Authorities have blamed young French Muslims for some of the violence.

A recent report by the French Interior Ministry found 510 anti-Jewish acts or threats in the first six months of the year, compared with 593 for all of 2003."

Those French Muslims must have watched "The Nutty Professor" one too many times...

[mactastic]

I'll tell Hymie & Abie jokes and all that, but my old red neck just lights up and glows when somebody starts bad-mouthing Jews. Around me, that ain't a safe pastime...

'Rat

Agreed, but I'll go so far as to say that bad mouthing ANY ethnic group simply because of their ethnicity gets my hackles up. For instance, calling people 'wetbacks' around me isn't a safe pastime if you know what I mean...

[Taft]

A few days old, but...

"Jewish graves desecrated in France"

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/08/10/france.cemetery.ap/index.html

I wonder if the cemetery residents provoked it somehow... :rolleyes:

"Despite a series of government measures, anti-Semitic violence has increased in recent years in France, coinciding with rising tensions between Israelis and Palestinians. Authorities have blamed young French Muslims for some of the violence.

A recent report by the French Interior Ministry found 510 anti-Jewish acts or threats in the first six months of the year, compared with 593 for all of 2003."

Those French Muslims must have watched "The Nutty Professor" one too many times...


Scapegoating: the new national passtime. When you can't blame anyone else, may as well blame those pesky Muslims...or the French. I find it interesting that in a story detailing the desecration of Jewish graves with Nazi symbology and Adolf Hitler's name, Muslims get the blame. I guess that's the left-wing media for you. :rolleyes:

France is hardly alone in the rise of anti-semitism. As detailed this report, by the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia, (http://eumc.eu.int/eumc/index.php?fuseaction=content.dsp_cat_content&catid=1) there has been a sharp rise in France, Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands and Britain over the last two years. Most reports I've seen point to two factors in the increasing anti-semitic problems: dissatisfaction among young Muslims over the Israeli situation and the loosening of attitudes towards Nazi activity.

There are two points I'd like to make on this subject. First, the initial response to this type of data is to say, "look at how racist those Europeans are." That is, simply put, ************. For instance, according to the Anti-Defamation League (http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ASUS_12/4464_12.htm), over 1500 anti-semitic acts were recorded last year in the US. That's nearly three times the amount seen in France. (Though, in per-capita terms the US had a 0.00055% rate of anti-semitic acts while France had a rate of around 0.00096%.) The point is, the US is about just as bad as Europe. People like to point to these statistics as some sort of cultural superiority when all of our countries have these problems.

In short: let's work to fix anti-semitism instead of working to smear our European "competitors" names.

Secondly, I think one of the problems facing the Jews over the next few decades is in their association with Israel. Israel is unique in the world in that it is seen as the "official" country of all the worlds Jews. This type of situation just isn't seen with any other religion. There is no official Muslim, Buddist or Christian state. Or at least that's how the world sees it.

The reason this situation could be a problem for Jews is that Israeli actions are often seen as the actions of the entire Jewish people. Now imagine any country in the world. Just pick one at random. Throughout that country's history, have they ever done anything that has pissed other members of the world off? Of course they have! Every country in the world has, at one time, done something that has pissed someone off. Countries act in the best interest of themselves.

Now for Jews living in Israel, this doesn't pose much of a problem. Their country is acting in their best interests. For Jews living abroad, however, it is a different story. A gut reaction many people will (incorrectly) have is that the actions of Israel are associated with the Jews just down the block. This is a very bad thing. If Israeli actions are interpreted as Jewish actions and Israel enters a war against (insert a country here), those Jews will become unwitting targets.

Now, as much as I think those people who make these associations are completely wrong, I do think that Jews have contributed to the association through unwaivering feelings of nationalism towards Israel. While many Jews living outside of Israel (especially younger jews) feel no association with Israel, many others feel Israel is their home, even if they have never been there. I think this sense of commitment to a country outside the country you are living in fosters a sense of connection to that country.

I feel this is a great liability to the Jewish people as a whole. Instead of becoming just another group of people bound by religion in the larger population, they become "citizens of Israel," so to speak. I think this seperation between them and their fellow citizens is very dangerous.

But what do you do about all of this? Its not the Jews' fault that anti-semitism still exists. And if the increase in violence is in any way related to the actions of Israel, how do you educate people that Israeli actions are not the same as Jewish actions?

With the problem of anti-Semitism, I see a lot of people pointing fingers, and few people giving constructive solutions. Let's hope that changes.

Taft

[skunk]

The reason this situation could be a problem for Jews is that Israeli actions are often seen as the actions of the entire Jewish people. Now imagine any country in the world. Just pick one at random. Throughout that country's history, have they ever done anything that has pissed other members of the world off? Of course they have! Every country in the world has, at one time, done something that has pissed someone off. Countries act in the best interest of themselves.

Now for Jews living in Israel, this doesn't pose much of a problem. Their country is acting in their best interests. For Jews living abroad, however, it is a different story. A gut reaction many people will (incorrectly) have is that the actions of Israel are associated with the Jews just down the block. This is a very bad thing. If Israeli actions are interpreted as Jewish actions and Israel enters a war against (insert a country here), those Jews will become unwitting targets.

Now, as much as I think those people who make these associations are completely wrong, I do think that Jews have contributed to the association through unwaivering feelings of nationalism towards Israel. While many Jews living outside of Israel (especially younger jews) feel no association with Israel, many others feel Israel is their home, even if they have never been there. I think this sense of commitment to a country outside the country you are living in fosters a sense of connection to that country.

I feel this is a great liability to the Jewish people as a whole. Instead of becoming just another group of people bound by religion in the larger population, they become "citizens of Israel," so to speak. I think this seperation between them and their fellow citizens is very dangerous.

But what do you do about all of this? Its not the Jews' fault that anti-semitism still exists. And if the increase in violence is in any way related to the actions of Israel, how do you educate people that Israeli actions are not the same as Jewish actions?

With the problem of anti-Semitism, I see a lot of people pointing fingers, and few people giving constructive solutions. Let's hope that changes.

Taft
Agreed. Also, check out the article on Cultural Relativism I posted, which is highly relevant in this respect.
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=84634

[Taft]

Agreed. Also, check out the article on Cultural Relativism I posted, which is highly relevant in this respect.
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=84634

I'm about halfway through it right now. Good read. I'll try to finish it later, as work is getting in the way.

Good for nothin' work! ;)

Taft

[IJ Reilly]

Now for Jews living in Israel, this doesn't pose much of a problem. Their country is acting in their best interests. For Jews living abroad, however, it is a different story. A gut reaction many people will (incorrectly) have is that the actions of Israel are associated with the Jews just down the block. This is a very bad thing. If Israeli actions are interpreted as Jewish actions and Israel enters a war against (insert a country here), those Jews will become unwitting targets.

Now, as much as I think those people who make these associations are completely wrong, I do think that Jews have contributed to the association through unwaivering feelings of nationalism towards Israel. While many Jews living outside of Israel (especially younger jews) feel no association with Israel, many others feel Israel is their home, even if they have never been there. I think this sense of commitment to a country outside the country you are living in fosters a sense of connection to that country.

I feel this is a great liability to the Jewish people as a whole. Instead of becoming just another group of people bound by religion in the larger population, they become "citizens of Israel," so to speak. I think this seperation between them and their fellow citizens is very dangerous.

I don't believe this feeling of nationalism is very widespread among non-Israeli Jews. In fact I think you'll find that Reform Jews (the largest denomination in the US at least I believe), are deeply troubled by the current situation in Israel. And when the repressed and persecuted Jewish populations of the Soviet Union were allowed to emigrate, a great many chose the US over Israel as their new home. So while it's true that any Jew in the world is automatically considered to be a "citizen of Israel," in reality, only a relatively small number actually choose to exercise that prerogative.

[katchow]

Secondly, I think one of the problems facing the Jews over the next few decades is in their association with Israel. Israel is unique in the world in that it is seen as the "official" country of all the worlds Jews. This type of situation just isn't seen with any other religion. There is no official Muslim, Buddist or Christian state. Or at least that's how the world sees it.


first off, great post.

I think this works both ways too...sometimes its hard to criticize the actions of Israel w/o being called an anti-semite....

[IJ Reilly]

first off, great post.

I think this works both ways too...sometimes its hard to criticize the actions of Israel w/o being called an anti-semite....

Examples, please. (I don't think this is entirely true.)

[Taft]

I don't believe this feeling of nationalism is very widespread among non-Israeli Jews. In fact I think you'll find that Reform Jews (the largest denomination in the US at least I believe), are deeply troubled by the current situation in Israel. And when the repressed and persecuted Jewish populations of the Soviet Union were allowed to emigrate, a great many chose the US over Israel as their new home. So while it's true that any Jew in the world is automatically considered to be a "citizen of Israel," in reality, only a relatively small number actually choose to exercise that prerogative.

I understand that there are many Jews who actively try to dissociate with Israel, or at least are not universally supportive of their actions. Two points...

First, people's perception of Jews is not always attached to reality. So even though the average Jew in the US (for example) does not feel a part of Israel, that doesn't mean the average US gentile perceives Jews as seperate from Israel. Perception has long been a problem with the Jewish people, as negative stereotypes have been (historically) easily attached to their people. (Scapegoating has ALWAYS been popular, it seems.)

But as skunk's post tries to show, viewing any group as homogeneous is a dangerous thing. Maybe all of this is a problem of perception. OF COURSE all Jews are different and have different feelings about Israel. But just like many here think that all Palestinians are terrorists, many all over the world might think that all Jews would give their life in support of Israel.

Second, the vocal minority has a way of drawing attention. By this, I mean that even though most Jews don't associate strongly with Israel, there is a VERY vocal minority which is rabid in their dedication to Israel. I have known many Jews on either side of the issue. My girlfriend, for example, can be (depending on the issue) very critical of Israel, while many in her large Jewish family are VERY pro-Israel. Like any issue, it is often the extremists who end up framing the debate and influencing public opinion. Public perception could quite unfortunately be affected by the extremists in the Jewish community.

Taft

[Taft]

Examples, please. (I don't think this is entirely true.)

Come on! Everybody on these forums should know an answer to this one:

Sly/Leo/Voltron

While many don't come out and call people anti-semites, they come close. I'd consider David Horowitz and Boortz as two who tow that line.

Taft

[IJ Reilly]

I understand that there are many Jews who actively try to dissociate with Israel, or at least are not universally supportive of their actions. Two points...

Well, I wasn't trying to make the case that Jewish opinion about Israel isn't monolithic, which obviously is true. I'm simply trying to say that while most Jews worldwide identify with Israel on some level, they don't necessarily endorse the Israeli government's current policies, which are heavily influenced by very conservatives and orthodox elements within the country. As an American Jew raised in a Reform congregation (now mainly non-observant, so please don't ask me any tough questions about the Talmud), I was brought up to regard Israel as the Jewish Homeland, and a necessary thing in the face of so much historical and current persecution. This was during the 1960s, when Israel was very much threatened with extinction by its neighbors, so feelings did run very high.

Since then, I've seen Israeli government policies implemented that not only haven't provided the country with the security they rightly desire, but seem to me on some level to be awfully non-Jewish in philosophy. So I am, at best, conflicted in my feelings about Israel.

The point being, I think it's entirely possible to criticize the government of Israel without being perceived as being anti-Semitic. It's entirely a matter of what you say and how you say it.

[katchow]

The point being, I think it's entirely possible to criticize the government of Israel without being perceived as being anti-Semitic. It's entirely a matter of what you say and how you say it.

and possibly who you say it to...

first i would like to say i've read your posts many times and i have the utmost respect for you IJ :)

i just know that from personal conversations i've had (sorry no links) i've gotten a shameful response for being critical of certain israeili policies. It seemed like with certain individuals the knee-jerk response was to go into the history of jewish persicution to somehow justify anything that was going on currently. Like i said these were individuals, i'm not trying to make a blanket statement, but i do know that this take/opinion does exist.

furthermore, after rereading the article from this thread i noticed something about all of the quotes...although anti-semitic remarks were alluded to none of the actual quotes were anti-semitic in themselves (at least none that i could see)...but its fairly easy to see that this article is supposed to be about anti-semitism...otherwise the location of said events wouldn't have been as important. It seems like the terms anti-israeli and anti-semitism can be interchanged sometimes without any loss of meaning. This goes back to the perception that israeil = jews.

please dont think that i'm in anyway trying to defend the jarheads who were harrasing the jewish students...

[Desertrat]

Now, mac, you harumph on your turf as you see fit. If you go to "fussin'" with folks over "wetback" in western Texas ranching areas, or along the border, you'll spend a lot of time healing up--and confusing the heck out of a lot of Mexican guys.

What do you do when a US citizen TexMex guy uses the term? What do you do when an illegal immigrant from Mexico grins and says, "Soy moja'o." with evident pride?

:), 'Rat

[pseudobrit]

Now, mac, you harumph on your turf as you see fit. If you go to "fussin'" with folks over "wetback" in western Texas ranching areas, or along the border, you'll spend a lot of time healing up--and confusing the heck out of a lot of Mexican guys.

What do you do when a US citizen TexMex guy uses the term? What do you do when an illegal immigrant from Mexico grins and says, "Soy moja'o." with evident pride?

:), 'Rat

In case you didn't know (you seem not to): you are not "in" western Texas.

[IJ Reilly]

i just know that from personal conversations i've had (sorry no links) i've gotten a shameful response for being critical of certain israeili policies. It seemed like with certain individuals the knee-jerk response was to go into the history of jewish persicution to somehow justify anything that was going on currently. Like i said these were individuals, i'm not trying to make a blanket statement, but i do know that this take/opinion does exist.

Yes, you're going to get that from some people. I just would not want the impression left that you simply can't criticize Israeli government policy to Jews without being called an anti-Semite. I think it's entirely possible to have these conversations with Jews, especially in the US. Oddly enough, I find the people who are the most difficult to converse successfully with on this topic these days are evangelical Christians.

[katchow]

Oddly enough, I find the people who are the most difficult to converse successfully with on this topic these days are evangelical Christians.

Yes, actually, i wasn't even talking about the jews themselves...and the individials i was referring to were not even religous as far as i could tell (or they could have been christian, i'm not sure)...i did find it odd...

the point is taken though...

[Desertrat]

Er, uh, pseudobrit, get a map of Texas. Tell me in what portion of the state you find such places as Uvalde, Odessa and Pecos. These are but a few of the areas which have been my "stomping grounds" for many decades. And for a clue as to the whereabouts of Terlingua, find the west edge of Big Bend National Park.

FWIW, my house is some ten miles airline from the Rio Grande. I regularly shop in Ojinaga, otro la'o del rio de Presidio.

In my area, the Mexican citizens of Paso Lajitas and San Carlos (some of whom have green cards and some of whom have dual citizenship) regard us as "their" gringos. The work we provide creates "their" jobs, and they run off any walking folks from farther south. A few of them, of course, aren't looking for work; just to make a delivery unbeknownst to TPTB. :D:D:D

They're damned good people, in the Borderland...

[kerb]

after reading several sources about this incident it seems the only thing the tourists directly incited was abuse over the Israeli flag and the state of Israel. The anti-semitic element seems implied by the Jewish media reporting it.

[Desertrat]

"The anti-semitic element seems implied by the Jewish media reporting it."

Could be, kerb, could be. But when you think of the symbolism of Auschwitz to Israelis--or to Jews in general--it doesn't seem to me that that's the place or time to express one's displeasure with Israel. Worse than wearing boots into a mosque...

'Rat

[Taft]

"The anti-semitic element seems implied by the Jewish media reporting it."

Could be, kerb, could be. But when you think of the symbolism of Auschwitz to Israelis--or to Jews in general--it doesn't seem to me that that's the place or time to express one's displeasure with Israel. Worse than wearing boots into a mosque...

'Rat

Agreed. Very bad venue.

You don't go to a sacred or special religious site and start arguments. Poor form, even if you aren't being racist.

Taft

[takao]

Examples, please. (I don't think this is entirely true.)

hm just 4 weeks ago a journailst made a commentary ,in the newspaper i read, ( derstandard.at , in fact liberal, and perhaps one of the best daily newspapers)
about the anti-terror wall built in isreal and the decision of the international court, he stated the articles on which the court made it's decision and explained that the wall itself is not illegal, only it's place where it's getting built...

so the next day there is a reader-letter printed in the same newspaper from the chief of the juwish community of vienna (as far as i remember) saying everything what the journalist said concering the articles doesn't apply to the palestinians and the israelians and called the international court and the journalist anti-semitic and islam-friendly and that he will never buy the newspaper again...

how can normal average educated members of other religions differentiate israel and jews if the jewish community can't do

this newspaper-criticising-israel -> reader-letter-accusing-journalist-of-being-antisemitic game isn't new ..i can name your 3-4 newspapers where i have seen this happen in the last years

but the article who was concered that the word "antisemitic" was overused and wrongly used for critics of the state israel , and because of this in a kind 'devaluated' (sp?) didn't get a answer letter

side note: personally i've been called anti-semitic as well for making critical comments about israels policy ...
for some people out there jews = israel politics (including people from _all_ religions)

[mactastic]

Now, mac, you harumph on your turf as you see fit. If you go to "fussin'" with folks over "wetback" in western Texas ranching areas, or along the border, you'll spend a lot of time healing up--and confusing the heck out of a lot of Mexican guys.

What do you do when a US citizen TexMex guy uses the term? What do you do when an illegal immigrant from Mexico grins and says, "Soy moja'o." with evident pride?

:), 'Rat

Let's start with the 'harumph on my turf as I see fit' comment. Did you or did you not just 'harumph' on the turf of the Anti-Semetic crowd? Where do you get off telling me where to harumph yet you are free to harumph anywhere you want? What difference do you see between standing up for what is offensive to you versus what is offensive to me? I though you were one of those types who didn't like people telling them what to do, yet you want to tell ME how to act. I don't think so.

As to what do I do when a TexMex guy uses the term? The same thing I do when I hear black guys calling each other the 'N' word, or gay people calling each other '*********'. Let them have their word and refrain from using it myself. You just don't seem to get that concept. Just because some people say it doesn't mean everyone should.

Edit:
Oh yeah,
:)

[Taft]

Where do you get off telling me where to harumph yet you are free to harumph anywhere you want?

Obvious: his dad can beat up your dad.

You must have missed 'Schoolyard Taunting 101.' Strenght is equivelent to right.

:)

Taft

[pseudobrit]

Er, uh, pseudobrit, get a map of Texas. Tell me in what portion of the state you find such places as Uvalde, Odessa and Pecos.

Okay got it... there! I see it!

But I don't see a town called Macrumors Forums on the map anywhere in Texas. Since you're here on the forums, and the forums ain't in Texas, you're obviously not in Texas.

[Desertrat]

mac, I think the problem here is that "wetback" is far more of a pejorative to you than to the folks I've been around for most of my life. It's about like "gringo" or "white guy" in local conversation. When I say local conversation, I'm talking about a group which is mixed as to citizenship or as to Mexican guys and gringos. The area of the border that I've been around, a lot of words are identifiers, not pejoratives. They're not intended nor even thought of as being insulting. It ain't like "pinche cabron"...

In a lot of western Texas, folks wouldn't have a clue what you're upset about, whether they're gringos or Mexican guys.

Words intended to insult are a whole nother deal. Same-same for gratuitous hostility or bullying on account of "otherness".

'Rat

[mactastic]

I would imagine I could show you places where unpleasant terms for Jewish folk are common enough that you wouldn't be understood if you talked about them in terms not related to animals. Does that invalidate your talk of bashing Jews being dangerous around you? If not, why would the fact that it's common to speak that way about Mexicans in your part of the world invalidate my right to call you on it?

The problem for me is that time and again I and others have expressed displeasure and discomfort about that particular term being used around us and you have continued to use it regardless. I don't like hearing people say racist things, even when they don't mean them in a racist way. I would very much prefer it if you would respect that and refrain from the term in my presence. I feel that if you would expect a HammerSkin to stop refering to Jews in what you feel is an inappropriate manner (even though in their world it may be quite common to refer to them that way) that I can ask the same of you about Mexicans.

[Desertrat]

Hokay...

[kjgnola]

I just visited Auschwitz about a month ago and while this case is disgusting, it is not all that surprising.

Auschwitz is a very common daytrip for backpackers that are in Krakow. There are those who go just because they feel they are supposed to and they need to fill the day until drinking starts again. These are the minority, but they exist. Unfortunately, there are many social commentaries that we could tangent onto for this topic and anti-Semitism is just one of them.

There is plenty of hate out there in many forms, but stereotyping a country because of some idiots whether they assault tourist in Poland or deface a cemetery in their home country does not make a whole country bad.

I was also in France during the same trip this summer and only encountered great people.

[Desertrat]

kgnola, I guess it's the fact that almost anywhere, good folks are the vast majority, and that makes the idjits stand out. I've wandered loose without a leash in some twenty countries and forty or so of the US states, and rarely met Bad Folks...

'Rat

[mactastic]

Hokay...

Much appreciated 'Rat.