Reports of Psystar's Demise Appear Premature

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/12/19/reports-of-psystars-demise-appear-premature/)

Yesterday, we reported (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/12/18/psystar-winding-down-business-as-web-site-goes-dark/) on a story quoting a Psystar attorney claiming that the unauthorized Mac clone manufacturer was in the process of winding down its business in the wake of a permanent injunction issued against it by a federal court judge earlier this month.

A new report from Computerworld (http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9142494/Contrary_to_report_Psystar_i_not_i_shutting_down_lawyer_says), however, suggests that the company is not yet finished.However, Camara told Computerworld by e-mail today, "Regrettably, Mr. Action was misquoted in an early story that seems to have been picked up elsewhere. Psystar does not intend to shut down permanently."The earlier report had noted the Psystar was planning to file an appeal of the judgment against it, although at the time it appeared that the company would be shutting down entirely until the appeal was heard at a minimum.Psystar has several legal moves left to make, Camara said today. "Psystar will proceed to litigate the legality of Rebel EFI through the motion process described in Judge Alsup's order," Camara said. "Psystar will also proceed with its antitrust case in Miami."Psystar's web site (http://www.psystar.com/), which was down for nearly two days, has been restored. The company's online store currently offers only its Rebel EFI (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/10/22/psystar-releases-rebel-efi-software-to-enable-installation-of-snow-leopard-on-pcs/) and has eliminated all mention of hardware sales, although even the Rebel EFI software is currently listed as "out of stock".

Article Link: Reports of Psystar's Demise Appear Premature (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/12/19/reports-of-psystars-demise-appear-premature/)

[Beric]

Something like Rebel EFI on my gaming PC would be pretty sweet. We'll see what happens.

[Michael73]

As a taxpayer it ticks me off that my hard earned dollars are being used by the court because Psystar keeps dragging this out.

[jaw04005]

Something like Rebel EFI on my gaming PC would be pretty sweet. We'll see what happens.

Just do it yourself. Psystar has done nothing but rip off all the work done by Hackintosh community.

Rebel EFI is just a modified version of the free and currently available Chameleon boot loader with pre-selected kext files. Nothing more. You could find all the necessary instructions and files in less than an hour by searching InsanelyMac.

As a taxpayer it ticks me off that my hard earned dollars are being used by the court because Psystar keeps dragging this out.

Well, this is a civil suit. So, the only taxpayer money being wasted is the court’s time. And there are severe punishments for that. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Florida district court goes off on Pystar once they get to their almost identical (to the California) case down there.

[smartalic34]

Just. Go. Away.

Die Psystar. Just Die.

[HBOC]

they had second thoughts. They are probably going to be selling modified tablets, or waiting to see what PC manufacturer comes out with one at CES and then modify it to run OSX....

[maclancer]

I am just don't understand how a company that barely sell few computers still fighting and paying a lot of money to lawyers. How in hell do these guys have so much money with not business at all? :confused:

[sbrhwkp3]

I am just don't understand how a company that barely sell few computers still fighting and paying a lot of money to lawyers. How in hell do these guys have so much money with not business at all? :confused:

There was speculation that the folks behind Psystar were linked to much larger companies... could be the likes HP or Dell, or possibly Microsoft, in order to damage Apple's business model.

Could be true.

[temtexdent]

You gotta wonder who was funding Pystar.


Also, explain to me how software that you download is out of stock?

[gdigger]

Also, explain to me how software that you download is out of stock?

And it's priced at $0.00 too.

[Glideslope]

Just. Go. Away.

Die Psystar. Just Die.

They are as good as dead. Let them die slowly. Far more enjoyable to watch them suffer slowly over time. :apple:

[*LTD*]

Judge Alsup's ruling on Rebel EFI:

"Whether such a defense would be successful on the merits, or face preclusion or other hurdles, this order cannot predict," Alsup said. "What is certain, however, is that until such a motion is brought, Psystar will be selling Rebel EFI at its peril, and risks finding itself in contempt if its new venture falls within the scope of the injunction."

The ruling:

1. Copying, selling, offering to sell, distributing, or creating derivative works of plaintiff's copyrighted Mac OS X software without authorization from the copyright holder;

2. Intentionally inducing, aiding, assisting, abetting, or encouraging any other person or entity to infringe plaintiff's copyrighted Mac OS X software;

3. Circumventing any technological measure that effectively controls access to plaintiff's copyrighted Mac OS X software, including, but not limited to, the technological measure used by Apple to prevent unauthorized copying of Mac OS X on non-Apple computers;

4. Manufacturing, importing, offering to the public, providing, or otherwise trafficking in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof that is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to plaintiff's copyrighted Mac OS X software, including, but not limited to, the technological measure used by Apple to prevent unauthorized copying of Mac OS X on non-Apple computers;

5. Manufacturing, importing, offering to the public, providing, or otherwise trafficking in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof that is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing a technological measure that effectively protects the rights held by plaintiff under the Copyright Act with respect to its copyrighted Mac OS X software.

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/12/15/apple_wins_permanent_injunction_against_clone_mac_maker_psystar.html

Now, my question is, in light of Judge Alsup's comments re Rebel EFI, is Psystar in the clear if they simply give it away for free? Even if free, Rebel EFI seems to fall under section 4 (or 5), above. No?

[fishmoose]

You gotta wonder who was funding Pystar.

I want to know this to, I hope a court finds out!

[*LTD*]

I want to know this to, I hope a court finds out!

My guess would be Elevation Partners. ;)

[Rot'nApple]

As a taxpayer it ticks me off that my hard earned dollars are being used by the court because Psystar keeps dragging this out.

Good Grief!

It was bad enough with Bush TARP 1, Stimulus 1 and the Republicans "Bridge to Nowhere" wasteful spending. I'm surprised you're not dead from a busted "ticked off" blood vessel with what the nitwit trio of Obama, Pelosi and Reid and the Trillions of dollars wasted by the Democrats in the name of... "stimulus package", "the uninsured", "the children", "the environment", "the American people", "the taxpayer", "the jobs bill" (didn't stimulus cover that?)...

I'd much rather pay the pocket change court cost of Psystar over what those clowns in Washington are doing! :eek: :eek: :rolleyes:

Come, leave the TEA Party in power, that's Tax Everyone Again and join the OFFICIAL TEA Party, Taxed Enough Already and have your voice heard! Well heard on Fox News and mocked on MSNBC, CNN, PBS, ABC, NBC, CBS, NewYork Times, LA Times, Washington Post... but come and make your forefathers proud and protest! ;)

[cocky jeremy]

These morons are STILL trying? Haha. Go ahead and waste all your money from those millions.. er, hundreds of computers you've sold. :D

[ChazUK]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (Linux; U; Android 1.5; en-us; Archos5 Build/CUPCAKE) AppleWebKit/528.5+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.1.2 Mobile Safari/525.20.1)

Who would be stupid enough to buy anything from Psystar now they've been dragged through the courts the way they have?

Doesn't rebel efi require online activation to work?

(I'd personally never spend a penny with them anyway)

[sishaw]

As a taxpayer it ticks me off that my hard earned dollars are being used by the court because Psystar keeps dragging this out.

Not sure what you mean. This is private litigation, the litigants are paying the costs. As far as salaries for judges, clerks, etc., they are FTEs and would be paid anyway.

[Cynicalone]

You gotta wonder who was funding Pystar.

It could be just the lawyers trying to make a name for themselves. Doing most of the legal work at little or no cost.

[cmaier]

There was speculation that the folks behind Psystar were linked to much larger companies... could be the likes HP or Dell, or possibly Microsoft, in order to damage Apple's business model.

Could be true.

No it can't. It's amazing how many times this conspiracy idea is raised. The less evidence of it, the more people insist it's true.


Now, my question is, in light of Judge Alsup's comments re Rebel EFI, is Psystar in the clear if they simply give it away for free? Even if free, Rebel EFI seems to fall under section 4 (or 5), above. No?

Commercial gain is not a relevant factor with respect to the EULA, copyright law, or the judge's order. If they distribute Rebel EFI for free, and rebel EFI is found to do any of the things the judge has enjoined, they will be in contempt of court.

[kironin]

As a taxpayer it ticks me off that my hard earned dollars are being used by the court because Psystar keeps dragging this out.

Yes, die Psystar, just die already.

Just. Go. Away.

Die Psystar. Just Die.


Ditto.

[sbrhwkp3]

No it can't. It's amazing how many times this conspiracy idea is raised. The less evidence of it, the more people insist it's true.

Chill out.

The only thing I was basing this on was Apple's statement from a while back that mentioned the idea that this was possible.

[heisetax]

Good Grief!

It was bad enough with Bush TARP 1, Stimulus 1 and the Republicans "Bridge to Nowhere" wasteful spending. I'm surprised you're not dead from a busted "ticked off" blood vessel with what the nitwit trio of Obama, Pelosi and Reid and the Trillions of dollars wasted by the Democrats in the name of... "stimulus package", "the uninsured", "the children", "the environment", "the American people", "the taxpayer", "the jobs bill" (didn't stimulus cover that?)...

I'd much rather pay the pocket change court cost of Psystar over what those clowns in Washington are doing! :eek: :eek: :rolleyes:

Come, leave the TEA Party in power, that's Tax Everyone Again and join the OFFICIAL TEA Party, Taxed Enough Already and have your voice heard! Well heard on Fox News and mocked on MSNBC, CNN, PBS, ABC, NBC, CBS, NewYork Times, LA Times, Washington Post... but come and make your forefathers proud and protest! ;)

Didn't Al Gore ask you to sell him some of your carbon credits so that he could fly his high carbon producing jet to all of these questionable meetings?

Fox news is about the only news network that attempts to give both sides of a question. The other networks seem to have only one thing to say. Watch, listen or read one day & you're like a soap opera, ready for a year or two.

Psystar could even have been done by Apple to use it as a way to try to put a slow down if not a curb to the hackintosh community, No one has thrown that possibility out. Apple does have to keep their large legal department busy.

I am a 25+ year Mac User & have never purchased a MS/DOS or Windows computer other than my 1st Gen Intel Mac Pro.

[Bevz]

LOL - fair play, they've got balls the size of footballs!

[Yamcha]

I am very glad its back up, I love the Mac OS, but seriously Apple products are simply overpriced.. Even the "Mac Mini's" are expensive and under spec'd.. If Psystar is still in the game then I think in the future Apple may consider making there systems cheaper.. If not then people would still be able to buy PC's and use OSX.. win-win for anyone looking to use Mac OSX.. :P

[powers74]

I am just don't understand how a company that barely sell few computers still fighting and paying a lot of money to lawyers. How in hell do these guys have so much money with not business at all? :confused:

There was speculation that the folks behind Psystar were linked to much larger companies... could be the likes HP or Dell, or possibly Microsoft, in order to damage Apple's business model.

Could be true.

These morons are STILL trying? Haha. Go ahead and waste all your money from those millions.. er, hundreds of computers you've sold. :D

It could be just the lawyers trying to make a name for themselves. Doing most of the legal work at little or no cost.

No it can't. It's amazing how many times this conspiracy idea is raised. The less evidence of it, the more people insist it's true.


These are all good points, but if there are a group of lawyers willing to do this for free... They've got to be out of their minds. How anyone can claim Apple has any kind of monopoly is beyond me. For there to be a monopoly they would have to be muscling their product into a market to unfairly gain market dominance, the exact opposite of what they are doing; limiting the use of their product to, get this, their product. There isn't even another corporate entity involved. Well other than the clowns making the claims. If these lawyers are doing this pro-bono they must be mad. That's all I can think. Trying to comprehend someone suing because a company is limiting their own software to their own hardware just makes my head hurt.

[gnasher729]

I am very glad its back up, I love the Mac OS, but seriously Apple products are simply overpriced.. Even the "Mac Mini's" are expensive and under spec'd.. If Psystar is still in the game then I think in the future Apple may consider making there systems cheaper.. If not then people would still be able to buy PC's and use OSX.. win-win for anyone looking to use Mac OSX.. :P

If Psystar does any move related to MacOS X, you won't believe how quick they are back in court, and this time for contempt of a court injunction. I think that would have severe _personal_ consequences for those responsible.

[asrai]

Psystar won't die, like the true cockroach they are.

[arjaosx]

I am very glad its back up, I love the Mac OS, but seriously Apple products are simply overpriced.. Even the "Mac Mini's" are expensive and under spec'd.. If Psystar is still in the game then I think in the future Apple may consider making there systems cheaper.. If not then people would still be able to buy PC's and use OSX.. win-win for anyone looking to use Mac OSX.. :P

I don't think Apple will want to sell low margin computers to below 800 numbers of people.

[Beric]

Just do it yourself. Psystar has done nothing but rip off all the work done by Hackintosh community.

Rebel EFI is just a modified version of the free and currently available Chameleon boot loader with pre-selected kext files. Nothing more. You could find all the necessary instructions and files in less than an hour by searching InsanelyMac.

Well, maybe I'll give it a try sometime then.

[Eric5h5]

I am very glad its back up, I love the Mac OS, but seriously Apple products are simply overpriced..

No they're not--they're correctly priced. Apple can make a reasonable profit off the hardware, which other companies can't do because the margins have been driven down too low by shortsightedness.

--Eric

[Winni]

No they're not--they're correctly priced. Apple can make a reasonable profit off the hardware, which other companies can't do because the margins have been driven down too low by shortsightedness.

--Eric

In other words: Apple still has "reasonable" margins only because their products are over-priced -- especially when you consider the fact that their stuff is produced in cheap labor factories in China.

It won't hurt you when you admit the fact that this designer hardware is expensive.

[MorphingDragon]

Something like Rebel EFI on my gaming PC would be pretty sweet. We'll see what happens.

EmpireEFI

In other words: Apple still has "reasonable" margins only because their products are over-priced -- especially when you consider the fact that their stuff is produced in cheap labor factories in China.

It won't hurt you when you admit the fact that this designer hardware is expensive.

No Apple isnt overpriced, IBM is.

[*LTD*]

We still on that "Macs are overpriced" nonsense? Record sales quarter-for quarter, people are lining up to buy "overpriced" Macs. And judging by the Mac-using demographic, these consumers aren't slack-jawed yokels.

Apple charges what they do because they've been able to achieve traction at those prices. Apple takes a value-based approach rather than a cost-based price approach. As long as enough consumers find value in Macs and are willing to pay, the price is just right. Part of it comes down to perceived value of goods.

[Winni]

Just do it yourself. Psystar has done nothing but rip off all the work done by Hackintosh community.

Rebel EFI is just a modified version of the free and currently available Chameleon boot loader with pre-selected kext files. Nothing more. You could find all the necessary instructions and files in less than an hour by searching InsanelyMac.

So what? Apple has ripped off the FreeBSD community to create the foundation of Mac OS X. Everything that makes Mac OS X a half-way decent Unix system has not been developed by Apple. Apple's development tools are also just rip-offs of the GNU development tools.

But you know what? Enabling people to launch businesses and to create jobs is one of the ideas behind Free Software. There's nothing wrong with that. If you have a problem with that, then don't release your work as free software. End of story.

Besides - the way I understand Rebel EFI is that you plug in the USB stick, then boot from the OS X DVD and this thing installs just as easy as it would install on Apple hardware. Chameleon is far away from that -- I've used it on a Dell XPS M1530 and it requires a lot of customization to get it working. Now if Rebel EFI makes that experience simple, they have all the right in the world to charge money for it. You know, just like Novell and Red Hat charge money for their versions of GNU/Linux. Or just like Apple charges money for their easy-to-use FreeBSD rip-off named Mac OS X.

Anyway. It's still ridiculous enough that an American court decided that Apple gets away with their EULA. If Sony got away with an EULA saying that Sony Pictures movies can only be watched on a Sony DVD player, and not on DVD players from Toshiba, Philips or anybody else, you folks would probably also find that totally okay and would applaud Sony and hate Toshiba for selling a DVD player that could playback Sony DVDs. And this whole Apple vs Psystar thing is NOTHING else -- it's only about Apple's EULA that tells you that you are not allowed to use a separately sold piece of software named Mac OS X on a compatible computer from a competitor.

It's completely insane and against common sense that you can apply a copyright law to enforce the most customer-hostile and anti-competitive end user license agreement currently in existence.

[chevyorange]

Anyway. It's still ridiculous enough that an American court decided that Apple gets away with their EULA. If Sony got away with an EULA saying that Sony Pictures movies can only be watched on a Sony DVD player, and not on DVD players from Toshiba, Philips or anybody else, you folks would probably also find that totally okay and would applaud Sony and hate Toshiba for selling a DVD player that could playback Sony DVDs. And this whole Apple vs Psystar thing is NOTHING else -- it's only about Apple's EULA that tells you that you are not allowed to use a separately sold piece of software named Mac OS X on a compatible computer from a competitor.
.

If Sony made good enough movies I’m sure they could get away with creating their own medium and selling it via that channel. It wouldn’t be illegal either.

[*LTD*]

So what? Apple has ripped off the FreeBSD community to create the foundation of Mac OS X. Everything that makes Mac OS X a half-way decent Unix system has not been developed by Apple. Apple's development tools are also just rip-offs of the GNU development tools.

But you know what? Enabling people to launch businesses and to create jobs is one of the ideas behind Free Software. There's nothing wrong with that. If you have a problem with that, then don't release your work as free software. End of story.

Besides - the way I understand Rebel EFI is that you plug in the USB stick, then boot from the OS X DVD and this thing installs just as easy as it would install on Apple hardware. Chameleon is far away from that -- I've used it on a Dell XPS M1530 and it requires a lot of customization to get it working. Now if Rebel EFI makes that experience simple, they have all the right in the world to charge money for it. You know, just like Novell and Red Hat charge money for their versions of GNU/Linux. Or just like Apple charges money for their easy-to-use FreeBSD rip-off named Mac OS X.

Anyway. It's still ridiculous enough that an American court decided that Apple gets away with their EULA. If Sony got away with an EULA saying that Sony Pictures movies can only be watched on a Sony DVD player, and not on DVD players from Toshiba, Philips or anybody else, you folks would probably also find that totally okay and would applaud Sony and hate Toshiba for selling a DVD player that could playback Sony DVDs. And this whole Apple vs Psystar thing is NOTHING else -- it's only about Apple's EULA that tells you that you are not allowed to use a separately sold piece of software named Mac OS X on a compatible computer from a competitor.

It's completely insane and against common sense that you can apply a copyright law to enforce the most customer-hostile and anti-competitive end user license agreement currently in existence.

Actually, it's because of Apple that FreeBSD got somewhere.

Since OS X's initial release in 2001, Apple's been percolating BSD code in and out of the OS X kernel/userland/libs. The code then makes its way right back in to FreeBSD.

By the time Panther was released, Apple's contributions back to FreeBSD had resulted in a FreeBSD milestone, which was 5.x. OS X 10.3 contained parts of FreeBSD 4.9 and 5.1. The things possible with FreeBSD today wouldn't have been possible without Apple.

For example, the VM/SMP code that OS X uses to run efficiently is the same that put FreeBSD on par with Linux.

Apple ensures a robust FreeBSD. A robust FreeBSD ensures a robust OS X. Apple actually puts back, and they have put back more than enough and continue to do so.

Customers dont seem to think Apple's EULAs are problematic. In fact, consumers are buying more Macs with these "hostile" EULAs than ever. The "customer-hostile and anti-competitive end user license agreement" is all in your head. And as for EULAs, they are not a joke. They exist for a reason, not just to protect "big companies", but the little guy trying to make a buck selling software, fonts, etc.

[Eric S.]

Just do it yourself. Psystar has done nothing but rip off all the work done by Hackintosh community.

Rebel EFI is just a modified version of the free and currently available Chameleon boot loader with pre-selected kext files. Nothing more. You could find all the necessary instructions and files in less than an hour by searching InsanelyMac.

Yeah, I'll have to go that route if Psystar disappears before I finish building my system. But hopefully Rebel EFI will be available for a little while longer.

[kingtj]

People keep saying Apple products are "overpriced", but the irony is, that's impossible. They're sold in a free marketplace, where price is dictated by the consumer. If Apple products really were overpriced, they wouldn't be able to sell them at the asking price, and would be forced to offer something more appealing, or lower prices on what they have.

In reality, the opposite has happened. Apple has increased their market share, and sales are apparently quite good for them.

Meanwhile, Psystar "staying in the game" at this point means very little, except they'll be providing yet another cheap PC clone for sale, plus a commercial way to buy a freeware package that allows tricking OS X into running on generic PC clone hardware. (And even THAT may or may not be around very long.) None of that is going to influence Apple to drop prices a bit!

(Just for the record though, I'm not saying you're totally wrong about the Mac Mini. I *do* think Apple would sell a lot more of them if they priced them lower. A lot of people ARE just comparing the hardware itself, with no regard to the OS, brand name, or warranty, and saying "I can buy or build something with better specs for that money." But obviously, Apple doesn't care. They're content to say "You pay THIS much for a Mini and no less, because we feel the OS X license you buy with it and the support of Apple as a company behind it justify the price." So far, enough people agree so they're selling enough to keep the product around.)


I am very glad its back up, I love the Mac OS, but seriously Apple products are simply overpriced.. Even the "Mac Mini's" are expensive and under spec'd.. If Psystar is still in the game then I think in the future Apple may consider making there systems cheaper.. If not then people would still be able to buy PC's and use OSX.. win-win for anyone looking to use Mac OSX.. :P

[MacinTek]

I am very glad its back up, I love the Mac OS, but seriously Apple products are simply overpriced.. Even the "Mac Mini's" are expensive and under spec'd.. If Psystar is still in the game then I think in the future Apple may consider making there systems cheaper.. If not then people would still be able to buy PC's and use OSX.. win-win for anyone looking to use Mac OSX.. :P

First there was the Marxist redistribution of wealth... then there was Yamcha's redistribution of copyrights. All in the name of "fairness" to those too lazy, unethical or stupid to earn.

[charlituna]

I wouldn’t be surprised if the Florida district court goes off on Pystar once they get to their almost identical (to the California) case down there.

The Injunction isn't from state court, it's Federal. Which means that it basically ends the Florida case. this is part of why Apple wanted it to clearly say 'current and future versions of Mac OS X and similarly functioning software'. that way even if they get to version 20.20 or start calling it something other than just Mac OS, Psystar can't say it's something new and start this again.

As for Rebel EFI etc, if Psystar sells or gives it away or sells another HackMac they are in contempt for which they can go to jail. If they are that stupid, I hope they melt the keys down. The company can keep selling other systems so they might not close their doors.

Although my roommate thinks they are just crazy enough to try to apply for Authorized Reseller and Service status.

[NXTMIKE]

Well it's nice to see someone who challenges Apple first hand....

...And doesn't suck up to them so easily.

[arkmannj]

You know, I don't understand why they didn't just make decent PC's that can have their boot-loader preloaded that helps multi-boot Windows, Linux, and various versions of Unix, including Darwin.

Then it would atleast be a 1/2 honest business, and I'm sure a few folks out there itching to make a hackintosh (We'll assume it's just for the fun of a technical achievement not to actually use.) would figure out how to get it working.

[A grain of salt]

LOL - fair play, they've got balls the size of footballs!

That's only because Apple has kicked them there so many times.

[grahamwright1]

So what? Apple has ripped off the FreeBSD community to create the foundation of Mac OS X. Everything that makes Mac OS X a half-way decent Unix system has not been developed by Apple. Apple's development tools are also just rip-offs of the GNU development tools.

Anyway. It's still ridiculous enough that an American court decided that Apple gets away with their EULA. If Sony got away with an EULA saying that Sony Pictures movies can only be watched on a Sony DVD player, and not on DVD players from Toshiba, Philips or anybody else, you folks would probably also find that totally okay and would applaud Sony and hate Toshiba for selling a DVD player that could playback Sony DVDs. And this whole Apple vs Psystar thing is NOTHING else -- it's only about Apple's EULA that tells you that you are not allowed to use a separately sold piece of software named Mac OS X on a compatible computer from a competitor.
.

Maybe because Sony et all joined an industry trade association to produce and sell interoperable products (DVD's) while Apple continues to develop OSX for their own hardware. The fact that Apple hardware has components common to other low cost mass-market manufacturers is irrelevant and should not give anyone a sense of entitlement that OSX should run correctly on their non-Apple provided hardware.

As for ripping off FreeBSD, I don't think so. Check the number of derivatives of the original Berkley code out there - it's encouraged, not discouraged.

[str1f3]

I am very glad its back up, I love the Mac OS, but seriously Apple products are simply overpriced.. Even the "Mac Mini's" are expensive and under spec'd.. If Psystar is still in the game then I think in the future Apple may consider making there systems cheaper.. If not then people would still be able to buy PC's and use OSX.. win-win for anyone looking to use Mac OSX.. :P

Here's the thing. If you think that Apple products are overpriced (which I don't) either don't buy them or build a Hackintosh. The fact that this company sells this knowing full well they won't win in court bothers me. This company will shut down sooner or later at great angstto their customers. Apple has never gone after the Hackintosh community. If you want to have OSX w/o a Mac, build it.

[dumb terminal]

Fox news is about the only news network that attempts to give both sides of a question.


Dear god, I hope you're being facetious.

[DesignerOnMac]

Didn't Al Gore ask you to sell him some of your carbon credits so that he could fly his high carbon producing jet to all of these questionable meetings?

Fox news is about the only news network that attempts to give both sides of a question. The other networks seem to have only one thing to say. Watch, listen or read one day & you're like a soap opera, ready for a year or two.

Psystar could even have been done by Apple to use it as a way to try to put a slow down if not a curb to the hackintosh community, No one has thrown that possibility out. Apple does have to keep their large legal department busy.

I am a 25+ year Mac User & have never purchased a MS/DOS or Windows computer other than my 1st Gen Intel Mac Pro.

"Fox news is about the only news network that attempts to give both sides of a question. " Funniest line I have read on here in weeks!

[*LTD*]

"Fox news is about the only news network that attempts to give both sides of a question. " Funniest line I have read on here in weeks!

FOX?? Bigot and racist central.

[gnasher729]

Anyway. It's still ridiculous enough that an American court decided that Apple gets away with their EULA. If Sony got away with an EULA saying that Sony Pictures movies can only be watched on a Sony DVD player, and not on DVD players from Toshiba, Philips or anybody else, you folks would probably also find that totally okay and would applaud Sony and hate Toshiba for selling a DVD player that could playback Sony DVDs. And this whole Apple vs Psystar thing is NOTHING else ...

Strawman. The economics of movies and operating systems is different. Count how often people switch from one operating system to another, and how often they switch from one movie to another (typical numbers: Once ever ten years for operating systems, twenty times an hour for the typical zero concentration span remote control addicted TV viewer). As a result, what is a good strategy for Apple in one market would be an idiotic strategy for Sony in a different market. And people's reaction to a strategy that is both legal and reasonable is very different from the reaction to a strategy that is both legal and idiotic.

If the economics of film making was different to the point that a typical film studio created as many movies as the typical operating system company creates operating systems (like Apple: Two operating systems in 25 years (MacOS Classic and MacOS X). Microsoft: Two operating systems (DOS and Windows)). So Sony's old movie released in 1995 doesn't play on DVD at all, only on Sony Beta. And their new movie requires a DVD player. Your choice whether you buy the Sony movie or the Hollywood movie (there would be only one Hollywood movie, and one more movie made by some talented amateurs). In this situation it would be absolutely fine for Sony to restrict their movie to Sony DVD players as a way to increase DVD player sales. Toshiba can make their own movie if they want.

[powers74]

In other words: Apple still has "reasonable" margins only because their products are over-priced -- especially when you consider the fact that their stuff is produced in cheap labor factories in China.

It won't hurt you when you admit the fact that this designer hardware is expensive.

I would contend that the latest generation MacPro is the best designed example of *consumer* electronics in the world. Ever. Easily in the top 3. Worth the price? I'd say so.


Anyway. It's still ridiculous enough that an American court decided that Apple gets away with their EULA. If Sony got away with an EULA saying that Sony Pictures movies can only be watched on a Sony DVD player, and not on DVD players from Toshiba, Philips or anybody else, you folks would probably also find that totally okay and would applaud Sony and hate Toshiba for selling a DVD player that could playback Sony DVDs. And this whole Apple vs Psystar thing is NOTHING else -- it's only about Apple's EULA that tells you that you are not allowed to use a separately sold piece of software named Mac OS X on a compatible computer from a competitor.

It's completely insane and against common sense that you can apply a copyright law to enforce the most customer-hostile and anti-competitive end user license agreement currently in existence.

I think this is the whole misconception right here. OSX is not sold separately. It is sold with a Mac. It's only sold separately with the understanding that you already bought a Mac - and therefore the OS that goes with it - to put it on. An upgrade essentially.

Your SONY hypothesis is a bit of a stretch. Yes, SONY owns the rights to the movie on the disc, and they also designed and sell the hardware to play it on. But it breaks down after that. The two are not directly dependent to one another as an OS to a computer are. Their BD sales are not dependent on their studio releases. The studio releases have little effect on the sales of BD players. People can buy a SONY player to watch a Disney movie on. Or they buy a TOSHIBA player to watch a SONY production on. Either way SONY is making money, but they are two different industries altogether. Sony had no choice but to license their BD technology or lose the war to their competitor, otherwise they probably would have loved to keep SONY films exclusive to SONY hardware. Some companies choose not to license it. That's just the way that industry works so it's nearly impossible to draw a comparison like that. Apple isn't forced to license anything of theirs just to remain in a market, so they don't. Pretty simple.

Additionally, like I said earlier, How can it be considered anti competitive if they aren't forcing another company to use their product? A company can't be anti competitive against itself, or compete with itself, or be a monopoly by denying other companies access to it's product. None of these arguments make any sense.

[michaellinehan]

People keep saying Apple products are "overpriced", but the irony is, that's impossible. They're sold in a free marketplace, where price is dictated by the consumer. If Apple products really were overpriced, they wouldn't be able to sell them at the asking price, and would be forced to offer something more appealing, or lower prices on what they have.

Nicely said.

I keep wondering who these people who incessantly whine about price are. Everyone I know who has switched has been overjoyed --- and extremely happy to pay what is asked. I looked at some cheap Dells in Costco once, just to see what they were actually like. The plastic looked like some joke toy out of a cereal box. The "metal", the same. But some people expect Macs to sell for the same price as that junk!!!? Get real.

Whether this is one's major business tool or major recreational tool, what the heck is a few hundred bucks over the life of the computer? It's been shown again and again that Macs are better - better integrated, more efficient operating system, higher return per employee when they're using Macs, longer lasting, etc. etc. To not be prepared to pay a little more for all that extra quality is the height of unthinking petulant selfishness.

And no, the world doesn't owe you a Ferrari for $30,000, either.

[supremedesigner]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 3_1_2 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/528.18 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0 Mobile/7D11 Safari/528.16)

I am very glad its back up, I love the Mac OS, but seriously Apple products are simply overpriced.. Even the "Mac Mini's" are expensive and under spec'd.. If Psystar is still in the game then I think in the future Apple may consider making there systems cheaper.. If not then people would still be able to buy PC's and use OSX.. win-win for anyone looking to use Mac OSX.. :P

Please remember hardware is the only money apple make.

[!¡ V ¡!]

And no, the world doesn't owe you a Ferrari for $30,000, either.

awh shucks I really wanted a Ferrari for $30k. Not to mention the insurance on that puppy.


Seriously though this company should just let it rest, I mean they gave it a good go and they lost. Move on to something else.

For an end-user to install whatever OS they want on they system as a technical experiment I have no problems with it, heck I have done it with multiple OSes. I do have a problem if they try to make a business out of it.

[ikeywah]

[QUOTE=cmaier;8976991]No it can't. It's amazing how many times this conspiracy idea is raised. The less evidence of it, the more people insist it's true.

You have a point, but you also cannot prove it either.
Some could come out next and say that Apple is behind Pystar... Then someone might say "Why would Apple be behind Pystar?"
Think about it.

You say less evidence... but in courts eyes...
money = evidence & motive = evidence

It was obvious what Pystar was doing. And the fact that they decided to go to court was even more baffling. There IS something in that.

I don't THINK it is a conspiracy, but then again... I could be wrong.

[jooak]

I wish people would stop supporting illegal behavior. Want a Mac, Get A Mac. That is what I did. Pay the Price. Serves Psystar right to closed for good.

[cmaier]

[QUOTE=cmaier;8976991]No it can't. It's amazing how many times this conspiracy idea is raised. The less evidence of it, the more people insist it's true.

You have a point, but you also cannot prove it either.
Some could come out next and say that Apple is behind Pystar... Then someone might say "Why would Apple be behind Pystar?"
Think about it.

You say less evidence... but in courts eyes...
money = evidence & motive = evidence

It was obvious what Pystar was doing. And the fact that they decided to go to court was even more baffling. There IS something in that.

I don't THINK it is a conspiracy, but then again... I could be wrong.

"The fact that they decided to go to court?" They had no choice. They were served with a summons and a complaint. Everything after that (declaratory judgment complaint) was just to try to get out from under their legal problems.

I don't understand your "think about it." Think about what? Apple can't be behind psystar. If they were, there'd be no "case or controversy" and they'd be perpetrating a fraud on the court and lying in court papers. Attorneys can be disbarred for that, or worse.

[bunty]

I'd like to be there when the judge asks, "Now the software in question here is called 'Rebel EFI'...why did you choose the word 'Rebel'?

[hiimamac]

Just do it yourself. Psystar has done nothing but rip off all the work done by Hackintosh community.

Rebel EFI is just a modified version of the free and currently available Chameleon boot loader with pre-selected kext files. Nothing more. You could find all the necessary instructions and files in less than an hour by searching InsanelyMac.


exactly. Although I started again with a hack (always had them at work), the one benefit, if true on those new 6/12 core chips are if they really run well and are cool, the PC user has the luxary of the bios and it reads like these may overclock almost double due to coolness. If that turns out true, watch out. Even Otis may do that just to save in rendering time.
Time will tell.

[twoodcc]

interesting. i'm kinda glad they aren't just giving up

[cmaier]

I'd like to be there when the judge asks, "Now the software in question here is called 'Rebel EFI'...why did you choose the word 'Rebel'?

Indeed. Reminds me of a deposition I was at once. The attorney on the other side was asking the witness about his login ID, which was "gorilla43." The attorney kept asking questions about why he chose that login ID, did he think he was a gorilla, etc. Turns out the witness picked the login because his kid liked gorillas - the attorney was not the brightest bulb - he didn't realize that "guerilla" was the not the same as "gorilla," and he assumed the user ID represented some sort of rebellious thing. When the witness finally pointed this out, the attorney got all redfaced. It was pretty funny.

[KnightWRX]

So what? Apple has ripped off the FreeBSD community to create the foundation of Mac OS X. Everything that makes Mac OS X a half-way decent Unix system has not been developed by Apple. Apple's development tools are also just rip-offs of the GNU development tools.


Really ? Because Apple doesn't respect the BSD or GPL license ? Or maybe they do and you're just full of crap :

http://opensource.apple.com/

Apple didn't rip off anything. Except in your little Apple hating world. I hope they sue PearC out of existance and that we get to laugh your sorry self off this forum.

[pullfocus]

Just another example of something that is going to drag on well longer than it should have.

Like Sarah Palin's political career. Or MTV.

[joelmcintosh]

I never understood why this got so much play with Mac news sites. As expected, Apple simply defended their EULA, trademark, and copyright. Anyone seriously following the story knew they would win.

I know that, as Americans, we tend to favor the underdog, but Psystar was clearly in the wrong. They ended up selling fewer than 800 computers, all but thieved the code for their EFI Rebel code, and got a solid smack-down from a judge.

Who didn't know this was coming? I'm just surprised it got so much play in the Mac press. I'm still surprised it is getting play.

[kilowattradio]

They could sell bare bones computer systems.
They could sell PC's with windows 7 installed.
They could become an Amazon Associate and sell Mac OS X and computers through them.

Because of their copyright violation injunction I don't think the courts will allow tem to sell Rebel EFI software.

[hiimamac]

interesting. i'm kinda glad they aren't just giving up

Me too. But if these new chips 6/12 core run as cool as they say they do, I might build a hack as I do audio and heat is the enemy to overclocking. But if the speed is say 2.6 and it's 40 d C, then your looking at 3.6 or higher which would blow away a MPro and still be quite cool.

I never understood the whole EFI thing when you can get it for free.
I still await the mid range, headless mac. The markets there for it, gamers, A/V, enthusiasts and the numerous people with nice displays. The mini just won't cut it when you know in your heart for the smae price as a mini you can build a futureprood mac pro for almost the same price. Makes no sense.


Peace All

I never understood why this got so much play with Mac news sites. As expected, Apple simply defended their EULA, trademark, and copyright. Anyone seriously following the story knew they would win.

I know that, as Americans, we tend to favor the underdog, but Psystar was clearly in the wrong. They ended up selling fewer than 800 computers, all but thieved the code for their EFI Rebel code, and got a solid smack-down from a judge.

Who didn't know this was coming? I'm just surprised it got so much play in the Mac press. I'm still surprised it is getting play.

You ever winder though? When they made the switch to intel, some thought as CPU prices dropped, so wouldnt mac prices. Never happened.

[cmaier]

You ever winder though? When they made the switch to intel, some thought as CPU prices dropped, so wouldnt mac prices. Never happened.

Yes it did.

[Byrnes3969]

Antitrust..Yeah baby!! That's what I'm talking about!! Go Psystar, Go!

We still on that "Macs are overpriced" nonsense? Record sales quarter-for quarter, people are lining up to buy "overpriced" Macs. And judging by the Mac-using demographic, these consumers aren't slack-jawed yokels.

Apple charges what they do because they've been able to achieve traction at those prices. Apple takes a value-based approach rather than a cost-based price approach. As long as enough consumers find value in Macs and are willing to pay, the price is just right. Part of it comes down to perceived value of goods.

Apple should continue to cater to rich white people. They have been very good at it so far, no doubt about that.

[nuvolino]

Psystar won't die, like the true cockroach they are.

hhehe yeah and just like cockroaches they are still spewing shyte from their mouths

die shytestar die

[powers74]

Only dumb ass rednecks and old ladies watch FOX news

I didn't realize Denis Miller fell into one of those categories! Thanks for the update!

[Joe Hill]

I'm rooting of Psystar because they piss fanboys off. Go Psystar, go!

[markcres]

To be honest... I toyed with the idea of trying to get OSX running on my Windows laptop... but realised half of the hardware would need updating and lots of functionality would be lacking.

In the end.. I got a great deal on a basic white unibody MacBook (a week before the unibody MacBook range was refreshed) - over 100 pounds off ! - and it came with a SL DVD in the box. It was the best decision I could have made.. and much better than trying to live with a permanent compromise that is a Hackintosh !

[krye]

Why go through so much trouble to defend a product that no one is buying? Psystar needs to get their head out of their ass and learn when to throw in the towel.

[hiimamac]

Yes it did.

If your talking about the price drops, well sure, but it's a far cry from going to a place like pricewatchers.com where chips could change daily with the higher end changing every two week while at the same time, PC developers would release theses new pcs like evey two week and mark down the higher end machines almost monthly, if not every two week.

The equvilant, would be MacBook and MacBook pro price drops, every month as Apple released faster chips all the time. This is what I meant.

Peace

[*LTD*]

If your talking about the price drops, well sure, but it's a far cry from going to a place like pricewatchers.com where chips could change daily with the higher end changing every two week while at the same time, PC developers would release theses new pcs like evey two week and mark down the higher end machines almost monthly, if not every two week.

The equvilant, would be MacBook and MacBook pro price drops, every month as Apple released faster chips all the time. This is what I meant.

Peace

Apple's business model, their position in the industry, their reputation, their commitment to certain standards, preclude their participation in any Pricewatcher-like activity. And as mentioned before, there is no such thing as "overpriced." If you think Macs are too expensive or unaffordable, or if you don't see value in them for the price, then it's your own anecdotal position.

It's all based on perceived value of goods.

[Gray-Wolf]

Pystar can't fund a long term fight. They need to back off a clear error in choices. I'm not a "Fanboy", but I do favor Apple winning this fight.

[cmaier]

Antitrust..Yeah baby!! That's what I'm talking about!! Go Psystar, Go!

They already lost that.

[AidenShaw]

Apple's business model, their position in the industry, their reputation, their commitment to certain standards, preclude their participation in any Pricewatcher-like activity. And as mentioned before, there is no such thing as "overpriced." If you think Macs are too expensive or unaffordable, or if you don't see value in them for the price, then it's your own anecdotal position.

It's all based on perceived value of goods.

OK, so the $790 designer blue jeans on the left (half-price today, only $395) are not overpriced compared to the $48 Levi's jeans (marked down to $33) on the right, if you perceive the designer jeans to be a better value.

Now I understand Apple's margins.

[hiimamac]

Apple's business model, their position in the industry, their reputation, their commitment to certain standards, preclude their participation in any Pricewatcher-like activity. And as mentioned before, there is no such thing as "overpriced." If you think Macs are too expensive or unaffordable, or if you don't see value in them for the price, then it's your own anecdotal position.

It's all based on perceived value of goods.

First off, I never said over priced, if I did I was talking about the CPU chip wars where intel charged to much. Sometimes I post really late and should be in bed, LOL.


What I'm am trying to say though is the last time I had a HACKNTOSH it ran a HOT P4 first Dou Core,

Now what I am saying is if the 6/12 cores really run this low (cool, as heat is the enemy of the overclocker), as an audio/video (A/V) guy, this would mean almost double if not more on stock cooling, at last 1/3 to 1.2, so 2.5 to 3.0 to 4.5 and in audio, that means a lot more plug ins in logic and in FCP, that means a lot more realtime effects or rendering speeds.

With regard to we never saw the price drops, we didn't someone simply said, YES WE DID and they were referring to the recent price drops, not the bi weekly price drops you would see on the PC side of things.

This new 6/12 core chip is going to interest a lot of people as Apple is going to charge a fortune for this but the beauty is, you can now buy a mother board that uses the chips that are closer and less expensive and when those prices drop on pricewathers, you can then buy it and swap it in.

A lot of people will be interested in this chip as we haven't seen anything this breakthrough since the first duo core.

Peaces

[cmaier]

PC vendors don't drop their prices bi-weekly, either. They drop them with each product cycle, or keep set price points but add features at each product cycle. Just like Apple. X86 allows much faster product cycles than did PowerPC, so apple's prices, adjusted for inflation, are much lower than in the PowerPC days. This is not due to "recent" drops.


First off, I never said over priced, if I did I was talking about the CPU chip wars where intel charged to much. Sometimes I post really late and should be in bed, LOL.


What I'm am trying to say though is the last time I had a HACKNTOSH it ran a HOT P4 first Dou Core,

Now what I am saying is if the 6/12 cores really run this low (cool, as heat is the enemy of the overclocker), as an audio/video (A/V) guy, this would mean almost double if not more on stock cooling, at last 1/3 to 1.2, so 2.5 to 3.0 to 4.5 and in audio, that means a lot more plug ins in logic and in FCP, that means a lot more realtime effects or rendering speeds.

With regard to we never saw the price drops, we didn't someone simply said, YES WE DID and they were referring to the recent price drops, not the bi weekly price drops you would see on the PC side of things.

This new 6/12 core chip is going to interest a lot of people as Apple is going to charge a fortune for this but the beauty is, you can now buy a mother board that uses the chips that are closer and less expensive and when those prices drop on pricewathers, you can then buy it and swap it in.

A lot of people will be interested in this chip as we haven't seen anything this breakthrough since the first duo core.

Peaces

[AidenShaw]

PC vendors don't drop their prices bi-weekly, either. They drop them with each product cycle, or keep set price points but add features at each product cycle. Just like Apple.

While bi-weekly isn't true, there are many cases of prices drops without model changes in the non-Apple Intel world.

For example, the Asus EEE Top touch all-in-ones dropped in price by about $150 in the first 6 months. Also, PC vendors sometimes keep producing an older model (but reduce the price) when a newer model came out (when the ET1603 came out with discrete graphics, the ET1602 with integrated graphics continued to be sold at a lower price).

This is not "just like Apple"! ;)

[cmaier]

While bi-weekly isn't true, there are many cases of prices drops without model changes in the non-Apple Intel world.

For example, the Asus EEE Top touch all-in-ones dropped in price by about $150 in the first 6 months. Also, PC vendors sometimes keep producing an older model (but reduce the price) when a newer model came out (when the ET1603 came out with discrete graphics, the ET1602 with integrated graphics continued to be sold at a lower price).

This is not "just like Apple"! ;)

Apple also drops prices occasionally mid cycle. They also keep old products at lower price points (MacBook, iPhone). When PC vendors do this it has nothing to do with using intel. They do it to get rid of stock that isn't selling. Apple does it more rarely because apple doesn't need to do.

[AidenShaw]

Apple also drops prices occasionally mid cycle. They also keep old products at lower price points (MacBook, iPhone). When PC vendors do this it has nothing to do with using intel. They do it to get rid of stock that isn't selling. Apple does it more rarely because apple doesn't need to do.

It's much more common in PC land, but I see your point. I can't think of any Apple ads that say "New, lower price" though when there isn't a product transition involved (like the 3Gs coming in above the 3G).

It's also not always "stock that isn't selling" - many times the older model continues to be manufactured and they get more profit even at the lower price (after fixed costs have been amortized, that's possible) by covering a broader market.

[powers74]

OK, so the $790 designer blue jeans on the left (half-price today, only $395) are not overpriced compared to the $48 Levi's jeans (marked down to $33) on the right, if you perceive the designer jeans to be a better value.

Now I understand Apple's margins.

You got it buddy. Looks like we're all on the same page now!

[Eric S.]

I'd like to be there when the judge asks, "Now the software in question here is called 'Rebel EFI'...why did you choose the word 'Rebel'?

They could call it Goat Cheese as far as I'm concerned, as long as it works.

[DudeDad]

Camara is an arrogant young lawyer whose own self promotion is grander than his legal skills...but not as grand as the bills he sends out...talk about snake oil salesmen....

[cmaier]

Camara is an arrogant young lawyer whose own self promotion is grander than his legal skills...but not as grand as the bills he sends out...talk about snake oil salesmen....

Basis for that?

[KnightWRX]

OK, so the $790 designer blue jeans on the left (half-price today, only $395) are not overpriced compared to the $48 Levi's jeans (marked down to $33) on the right, if you perceive the designer jeans to be a better value.

Now I understand Apple's margins.

The fact that the 33$ Levi's will get you laughed out of that trendy bar and you won't get to spend the night with the hot babe that you saw hanging alone at the table in the back makes the 395$ well worth the price you should've payed.

It's not because you don't see the value in something superficial like designer jeans that it is not there for somebody.

Not to mention most Macs aren't overpriced and compare very well to equivalent systems (that's the most important part everyone seems to forget when comparing Macs to other brands).

[satcomer]

I'm rooting of Psystar because they piss fanboys off. Go Psystar, go!

So you think that any company can rip of GPL code and then sell it pissing off the company (Apple) and the creators of the open GPL code (OS X86 project) and you support these clowns?

You really live in a fantasy world and care nothing of people's hard work. :eek:

Plus to answer other posts Apple contributes to OPEN GPL with the Darwin Project (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system)) & Webit (http://webkit.org/) that people's precious Google Chrome is based on.

So what else do you want Apple to give a away?

[MorphingDragon]

OK, so the $790 designer blue jeans on the left (half-price today, only $395) are not overpriced compared to the $48 Levi's jeans (marked down to $33) on the right, if you perceive the designer jeans to be a better value.

Now I understand Apple's margins.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z5jU5nrlAo

Old... why yes. Same message... again... still....

---

And Aiden, heres a special piece of propaganda, just for you.

http://sfx-images.mozilla.org/utw/120x240_ie.png

DP, my bad. Dodgy country connection.

[oldwatery]

I am very glad its back up, I love the Mac OS, but seriously Apple products are simply overpriced.. Even the "Mac Mini's" are expensive and under spec'd.. If Psystar is still in the game then I think in the future Apple may consider making there systems cheaper.. If not then people would still be able to buy PC's and use OSX.. win-win for anyone looking to use Mac OSX.. :P

You still don't get it do you?
If you think Mac's are too expensive buy a Windows machine.
But leave Apple alone. They are not bound to do anything just for YOU!!!!

And if you are silly enough to think that Pystar are in it for you well....
This is a lawyer game pure and simple.

I just hope the judge sees this latest move and slams these SOB's hard.

[AidenShaw]

The fact that the 33$ Levi's will get you laughed out of that trendy bar and you won't get to spend the night with the hot babe that you saw hanging alone at the table in the back makes the 395$ well worth the price you should've payed.

Sounds like a superficial woman if the label on my jeans is more important than what's in them.


Not to mention most Macs aren't overpriced and compare very well to equivalent systems (that's the most important part everyone seems to forget when comparing Macs to other brands).

And the Apple fans always boost the price of the PC by adding a bunch of features that may not be needed by the user.

That way they can claim that a $2500 quad core Mac Pro is a "better value" than a $1000 Core i7 system that's just as fast, has more memory, bigger disks, Blu-ray and a better graphics card.

[AidenShaw]

And Aiden, heres a special piece of propaganda, just for you.

http://sfx-images.mozilla.org/utw/120x240_ie.png

Let me know when Firefox has tab isolation and crash recovery....

[Rootus]

That way they can claim that a $2500 quad core Mac Pro is a "better value" than a $1000 Core i7 system that's just as fast, has more memory, bigger disks, Blu-ray and a better graphics card. Sounds to me like your quibble is more with Intel than Apple. Go build an equivalent to a Mac Pro -- and I don't mean Core i7, I mean exactly the same -- as in, Xeon. Then let's talk about price. FWIW, Newegg wants a thousand bucks for just the processor that powers the base Mac Pro.

[*LTD*]

a $1000 Core i7 system that's just as fast, has more memory, bigger disks, Blu-ray and a better graphics card.

No OS X, no sale.

[KnightWRX]

Sounds like a superficial woman if the label on my jeans is more important than what's in them.

You figured that out by yourself uh ? Maybe the fact I used the word superficial helped you. Yes, designer jeans' value is all in superficiality. What's wrong with that exactly ? The fact that you don't think superficial things are important doesn't mean they aren't to someone else. You judging them based on your needs doesn't make you a better person. Your wants and needs aren't superior to those of anyone else.

And the Apple fans always boost the price of the PC by adding a bunch of features that may not be needed by the user.

But that are found on the equivalent Mac. The fact that you don't need the features doesn't mean that you can compare a PC and a Mac in price by simply foregoing those features on the PC. If you don't see the added value those features provide, then by all means buy the PC and shut up.

The Mac isn't overpriced when you compare them side by side with equivalent systems (no Mini or iMac to a mid-tower PC which is the cheapest type of system there is) with the same features.

[AidenShaw]

Sounds to me like your quibble is more with Intel than Apple. Go build an equivalent to a Mac Pro -- and I don't mean Core i7, I mean exactly the same -- as in, Xeon. Then let's talk about price. FWIW, Newegg wants a thousand bucks for just the processor that powers the base Mac Pro.

Try again... I think that it's $310 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819117213).

[Rootus]

Try again... I think that it's $310 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819117213). http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819117182

[KnightWRX]

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819117182

The base Mac Pro uses the processor Aidenshaw showed you. The 55xx series is only used in dual cpu Mac Pros, the 8 core boxes.

[MorphingDragon]

Let me know when Firefox has tab isolation and crash recovery....

Let me know when IE is stable enough to not need those features...

[KnightWRX]

Let me know when IE is stable enough to not need those features.

Not to mention Firefox does have crash recovery. When it crashes, it always comes back up right where it left off, all tabs intact.

[AidenShaw]

Let me know when IE is stable enough to not need those features...

IE is stable - tab isolation is to protect the browser from plug-in crashes.


Not to mention Firefox does have crash recovery. When it crashes, it always comes back up right where it left off, all tabs intact.

Thanks for correcting me on that one.

[cmaier]

It's amazing how far afield these threads drift.

[MorphingDragon]

Not to mention Firefox does have crash recovery. When it crashes, it always comes back up right where it left off, all tabs intact.

The agrument is similar to the Microkernel Minix argument. Lots of talk but its never actually been proved to be needed.

IE is stable - tab isolation is to protect the browser from plug-in crashes.

I thought you said you didnt use flash. ;)

I'm not talking about plugins, silly.


It's amazing how far afield these threads drift.

My Fault :D

[WeegieMac]

Oh, look who's back ... you've got to wonder who the hell is funding this mob considering the way they just won't disappear.

People who are "for" Psystar are just as delusional as the company itself.

Mac OS X is Apple's product, they own it. Psystar have no right, legal or otherwise, to crack it or develop code which allows non-Macintosh hardware to run it. It's not rocket science for Christ sake, but some people are beyond a telling.

Some on here in the Psystar Supporters Club have used the example of Apple developing Boot Camp to allow Windows to be installed on Intel Macs, saying that it's no different to Psystar offering a program to install OS X on PC's.

Are people really that stupid to believe that Apple didn't, a) inform Microsoft of their plan to develop Boot Camp, b) gain permission to allow Windows installation on a "rival" platform, and c) maybe even seek advice from Microsoft on how best to utilise Windows via Boot Camp with drivers, etc.

Common sense is free, but some folk act like it's an expense too far.

[inkswamp]

I think this is the whole misconception right here. OSX is not sold separately. It is sold with a Mac. It's only sold separately with the understanding that you already bought a Mac - and therefore the OS that goes with it - to put it on. An upgrade essentially.

No, it isn't. Apple was spinning it that way but it's bull. At the time they started making that argument, I searched through the EULA, documentation and marketing material for Tiger and Leopard and neither of them said anything about it being an upgrade. That's Apple revising history.

If it's an upgrade, then you must accept this ridiculous scenario....

Someone buys a used Mac off eBay or from a Mac seller where the original install media isn't available (and go take a look because you'll see hundreds of them for sale that way) then it's technically illegal to buy OS X off-the-shelf and install it. If you don't own the installer disks, then you don't own the software license and you can't legally upgrade.

That whole "off-the-shelf OS X is an upgrade" argument is nonsense. If Apple really meant that, they'd be verifying it before allowing people to use it and they would have long ago gone after the Hackintosh crowd.

I'm rooting of Psystar because they piss fanboys off. Go Psystar, go!

Very good. That means you're forfeiting control of your own opinion to the very people you despise and are therefore behaving in just as knee-jerk a manner as they are. :rolleyes:

[cmaier]

Are people really that stupid to believe that Apple didn't, a) inform Microsoft of their plan to develop Boot Camp, b) gain permission to allow Windows installation on a "rival" platform, and c) maybe even seek advice from Microsoft on how best to utilise Windows via Boot Camp with drivers, etc.



Probably none of those things are true. Microsoft licenses Windows for installation on any computer. Apple doesn't need Microsoft's permission beyond the permission that Microsoft has already given in its license agreement.

Not to mention that the analogy is flawed in that Apple doesn't sell Macs with Windows pre-installed. (Again - even if Apple did so, as long as it abided by Microsoft's OEM license it would be free to do so.)

No, it isn't. Apple was spinning it that way but it's bull. At the time they started making that argument, I searched through the EULA, documentation and marketing material for Tiger and Leopard and neither of them said anything about it being an upgrade. That's Apple revising history.

If it's an upgrade, then you must accept this ridiculous scenario....

Someone buys a used Mac off eBay or from a Mac seller where the original install media isn't available (and go take a look because you'll see hundreds of them for sale that way) then it's technically illegal to buy OS X off-the-shelf and install it. If you don't own the installer disks, then you don't own the software license and you can't legally upgrade.

That whole "off-the-shelf OS X is an upgrade" argument is nonsense. If Apple really meant that, they'd be verifying it before allowing people to use it and they would have long ago gone after the Hackintosh crowd.

You are making a strawman argument. He said "essentially." His point was that Mac OS X is not sold for installation on naked iron. It's for sale only for use on machines that were sold by Apple with Mac OS installed on them.

Also, you own the license whether or not you own the installer disks. Not sure where you got that idea from.

P.S.: and apple's not revising history, because apple never made the argument.

and the fact that apple trusts people to not abuse its software license doesn't mean it doesn't think it's software license is invalid.

[AidenShaw]

I thought you said you didnt use flash. ;)

I've said that I normally have Flash disabled, and only enable it when I want/need the Flash content.


I'm not talking about plugins, silly.

Then you're "talking silly", since IE8 is not unstable. You must be thinking of Safari. ;)

[KnightWRX]

That whole "off-the-shelf OS X is an upgrade" argument is nonsense. If Apple really meant that, they'd be verifying it before allowing people to use it and they would have long ago gone after the Hackintosh crowd.

Yes, because fighting the unwinnable "copy protection" war is really a good investment of ressources. :rolleyes:

The lack of copy protection does not mean that you can do as you please with the software, only that the vendor trusts its users enough to do the right thing. If it should or shouldn't is not any legal indication of copyright or license forfeiture.

[inkswamp]

I wish people would stop supporting illegal behavior. Want a Mac, Get A Mac. That is what I did. Pay the Price. Serves Psystar right to closed for good.

I wish someone would explain to my what Psystar is doing that is illegal.

I'm not rooting for these guys, but I have yet to understand where the illegal part is in all this. Point it out for me...

* Build a generic PC box
* Sell the customer an off-the-shelf copy of OS X
* Install software that allows OS X to be installed
* Install an unaltered copy of OS X at the request of the customer
* Ship the product

What part of that is illegal?

And remember, when you answer, the EULA has a spotty history as being a legally enforceable contract between buyer and seller. Historically, it has the most teeth when used to combat piracy and there's no piracy happening here. And even if it were legally enforceable, the buyer in the above scenario is NOT Psystar so how the EULA applies to them is a whole other argument.

[KnightWRX]

I wish someone would explain to my what Psystar is doing that is illegal.

I'm not rooting for these guys, but I have yet to understand where the illegal part is in all this. Point it out for me...

* Build a generic PC box
* Sell the customer an off-the-shelf copy of OS X
* Install software that allows OS X to be installed
* Install an unaltered copy of OS X at the request of the customer
* Ship the product

What part of that is illegal?

Why don't you go read Alsup's summary judgement and find out for yourself ? Why should it be explained again ? But just to humor you, here it is :

- They are guilty of copyright infrigment for having modified Apple's base image of OS X and then distributed this derivative work using an image server to the machines it was building without a proper license to make such a derivative work and to distribute the result from Apple.

- They are guilty of circumventing protections put in place by Apple that makes sure that OS X is only installed on proper Apple branded hardware (the Dont Steal Mac OSX kext...) which is against provisions of the DMCA.

- Finally, they are in breach of the EULA and have afforded Apple no remedy for this breach even though they haven't discontinued use of the product in question.

Reading the injunction should also give you a clue as to what all illegal actions they did and are now prohibited from doing.

[hiimamac]

Yes it did.

Apple's business model, their position in the industry, their reputation, their commitment to certain standards, preclude their participation in any Pricewatcher-like activity. And as mentioned before, there is no such thing as "overpriced." If you think Macs are too expensive or unaffordable, or if you don't see value in them for the price, then it's your own anecdotal position.

It's all based on perceived value of goods.

Again I never said overpriced. Simply that when they made the switch, a lot of people here were making statemwnts that intel drops the CPU prices all the time but we never eae thoses. Again I never said overpriced.

[cmaier]

I wish someone would explain to my what Psystar is doing that is illegal.

I'm not rooting for these guys, but I have yet to understand where the illegal part is in all this. Point it out for me...

* Build a generic PC box
* Sell the customer an off-the-shelf copy of OS X
* Install software that allows OS X to be installed
* Install an unaltered copy of OS X at the request of the customer
* Ship the product

What part of that is illegal?

And remember, when you answer, the EULA has a spotty history as being a legally enforceable contract between buyer and seller. Historically, it has the most teeth when used to combat piracy and there's no piracy happening here. And even if it were legally enforceable, the buyer in the above scenario is NOT Psystar so how the EULA applies to them is a whole other argument.

First, EULA's do not have "a spotty history." They are typically enforced so long as they do not infringe the right of first sale and so long as they can be agreed to prior to the purchase transaction or so long as there is a right of refusal accompanied by a refund.

Second, Psystar did NOT install an unaltered copy of OS X. They altered it, creating a derivative work. Further, they made multiple copies form a single master. Both of these are violations of 17 USC 106.

They also violated the EULA, which meant they had no license to use the software for any purpose, which means that even installing it on a single computer would be a violation of 17 USC 106.

Even if they had not done these things, they would be inducing violations of 17 USC 106 as well as contributing to them, both of which are violations of copyright law.

Read Alsup's opinion.

[*LTD*]

I wish someone would explain to my what Psystar is doing that is illegal.

I'm not rooting for these guys, but I have yet to understand where the illegal part is in all this. Point it out for me...

* Build a generic PC box
* Sell the customer an off-the-shelf copy of OS X
* Install software that allows OS X to be installed
* Install an unaltered copy of OS X at the request of the customer
* Ship the product

What part of that is illegal?

And remember, when you answer, the EULA has a spotty history as being a legally enforceable contract between buyer and seller. Historically, it has the most teeth when used to combat piracy and there's no piracy happening here. And even if it were legally enforceable, the buyer in the above scenario is NOT Psystar so how the EULA applies to them is a whole other argument.

* Build a generic PC box

That's ok.

* Sell the customer an off-the-shelf copy of OS X

That's ok.

* Install software that allows OS X to be installed

Not ok.

* Install an unaltered copy of OS X at the request of the customer

Not ok.

* Ship the product

Not ok.

The infringement starts around "Install software that allows OS X to be installed" and just snowballs from there.

[koach]

Fox news is about the only news network that attempts to give both sides of a question. The other networks seem to have only one thing to say. Watch, listen or read one day & you're like a soap opera, ready for a year or two.


Wow, just wow. Was this meant as a joke and I missed it? Fox News is by far and large the most bias and radically conservative news service in the entire Unites States. I mean have you see programs featuring Glenn Beck? Speaking of which, why has Glenn Beck still not denied the allegations of raping and murdering a girl back in 1990? Why will he not address the allegations? Why the cover up?

[bobertoq]

I wish someone would explain to my what Psystar is doing that is illegal.

I'm not rooting for these guys, but I have yet to understand where the illegal part is in all this. Point it out for me...

* Build a generic PC box
* Sell the customer an off-the-shelf copy of OS X
* Install software that allows OS X to be installed
* Install an unaltered copy of OS X at the request of the customer
* Ship the product

What part of that is illegal?

And remember, when you answer, the EULA has a spotty history as being a legally enforceable contract between buyer and seller. Historically, it has the most teeth when used to combat piracy and there's no piracy happening here. And even if it were legally enforceable, the buyer in the above scenario is NOT Psystar so how the EULA applies to them is a whole other argument.Apple is using the law to protect their profits. Psystar is a threat to Apple's profits, therefore they are breaking the law.

[cmaier]

Apple is using the law to protect their profits. Psystar is a threat to Apple's profits, therefore they are breaking the law.

Nonsense. Psystar is performing specific acts that, under federal law, are explicitly defined as copyright infringement. Microsoft is a threat to Apple's profits and they aren't infringing Apple's copyright (so far as we know)

[gnasher729]

Camara is an arrogant young lawyer whose own self promotion is grander than his legal skills...but not as grand as the bills he sends out...talk about snake oil salesmen....

1. Camaras bill for Psystar is presumably zero, because he took the case on a basis of no success / no payment. Since Psystar's previous lawyers are owed $88,000, that didn't make much difference. :p

2. I don't think that the outcome of this case has anything to do with the quality of Psystar's legal representation, but is completely based on the illegality of their actions. Sure, a law company that was paid (not just billing, but getting paid) by the hour would have made the fight last longer, but they would have never succeeded.

[cmaier]

1. Camaras bill for Psystar is presumably zero, because he took the case on a basis of no success / no payment. Since Psystar's previous lawyers are owed $88,000, that didn't make much difference. :p

2. I don't think that the outcome of this case has anything to do with the quality of Psystar's legal representation, but is completely based on the illegality of their actions. Sure, a law company that was paid (not just billing, but getting paid) by the hour would have made the fight last longer, but they would have never succeeded.

Not pleading 17 USC 117 was a huge mistake. May not (probably not) have made a difference, but it was their best argument.

[digiguy23]

It's funny that people are still bringing up the same story about Microsoft or Sony making products that tie it to their own hardware. Okay, Microsoft doesn't make computers and it was probably never their intention to do so. They make software and if they started to do it now, thousands and thousands of companies and users that use Windows on a standard PC would be pissed. They make money on software, not hardware. Only the XBOX360 is tied. The same with Sony or the others. They want to sell PC's with Windows, standard TVs, radios, cameras, camcorders not make products that tie hardware with software for the mass market, unless it's the playstation.

[Maximara]

You know, I don't understand why they didn't just make decent PC's that can have their boot-loader preloaded that helps multi-boot Windows, Linux, and various versions of Unix, including Darwin.

Then it would atleast be a 1/2 honest business, and I'm sure a few folks out there itching to make a hackintosh (We'll assume it's just for the fun of a technical achievement not to actually use.) would figure out how to get it working.

The problem with that idea is that the PC market is very cutthroat with razor thin margins. I remember then Zenith had a PC (it didn't last long). The reality is with so many already existing brands Psystar would have quickly gone to the abyss with this model.

[KnightWRX]

It's funny that people are still bringing up the same story about Microsoft or Sony making products that tie it to their own hardware. Okay, Microsoft doesn't make computers and it was probably never their intention to do so. They make software and if they started to do it now, thousands and thousands of companies and users that use Windows on a standard PC would be pissed. They make money on software, not hardware. Only the XBOX360 is tied. The same with Sony or the others. They want to sell PC's with Windows, standard TVs, radios, cameras, camcorders not make products that tie hardware with software for the mass market, unless it's the playstation.

What was your point again ?

[gnasher729]

Not pleading 17 USC 117 was a huge mistake. May not (probably not) have made a difference, but it was their best argument.

1. When a company changes lawyers, the second set of lawyers may be limited by the mistakes of the first lawyers.

2. It is debatable whether this was a mistake or not. If the lawyers believe it didn't make a difference, then why plead it (especially if you don't get paid for it). But to quote Judge Alsup: "At all events, the assertion of Section 117 is so frivolous in the true context of how Psystar has used Mac OS X that a belated attempt to amend the pleadings would not be excused."

"Frivolous" is much worse than "completely without merit". "Frivolous" means it is so completely wasting the courts time that a lawyer making a frivolous pleading will be punished for contempt of court.

[cmaier]

1. When a company changes lawyers, the second set of lawyers may be limited by the mistakes of the first lawyers.

2. It is debatable whether this was a mistake or not. If the lawyers believe it didn't make a difference, then why plead it (especially if you don't get paid for it). But to quote Judge Alsup: "At all events, the assertion of Section 117 is so frivolous in the true context of how Psystar has used Mac OS X that a belated attempt to amend the pleadings would not be excused."

"Frivolous" is much worse than "completely without merit". "Frivolous" means it is so completely wasting the courts time that a lawyer making a frivolous pleading will be punished for contempt of court.

That's mere dicta. It wasn't plead, so we'll never know. Still a huge mistake. If I was the one who drafted that complaint I'd be on the horn with loss prevention pretty quick.

[DMann]

Nonsense. Psystar is performing specific acts that, under federal law, are explicitly defined as copyright infringement. Microsoft is a threat to Apple's profits and they aren't infringing Apple's copyright (so far as we know)

Actually, Microsoft settled their case for stealing Apple's Quicktime code, in addition to their UI infringement case, in 1997.

[cmaier]

Actually, Microsoft settled their case for stealing Apple's Quicktime code, in addition to their UI infringement case, in 1997.

We were discussing the present (I think. I've long since gotten confused by the places this thread has gone).

[DMann]

OK, so the $790 designer blue jeans on the left (half-price today, only $395) are not overpriced compared to the $48 Levi's jeans (marked down to $33) on the right, if you perceive the designer jeans to be a better value.

Now I understand Apple's margins.

Not if one considers that the 'designer jeans' in question remain invulnerable to moths eating holes in them, permanent stains, and erosion due to the elements.

No OS X, no sale.

The perennial deal breaker.

[*LTD*]

The perennial deal breaker.

It can be a 16-core, 2gb videocard monster for an insane deal, but if there's no OS X - if I don't get the OS X user experience and the Apple ecosystem - then why would I want it? The whole point of a Mac isn't just the beautiful design, but the OS, and the way it works with the hardware.

[DMann]

We were discussing the present (I think. I've long since gotten confused by the places this thread has gone).

Eventually, we'll see how the Zune HD "pinch and zoom" issue is dealt with.

It can be a 16-core, 2gb videocard monster for an insane deal, but if there's no OS X - if I don't get the OS X user experience and the Apple ecosystem - then why would I want it? The whole point of a Mac isn't just the beautiful design, but the OS, and the way it works with the hardware.

Precisely.

The UE (user experience) far outweighs any incremental variants in horsepower in terms of productivity, reliability, sheer enjoyment, and absence of peripheral distractions due to vigilant virus protection/scanning, UAC, Registry cleaning, defragging, etc.

We're talking about an integrated solution here, one which is apparently valued highly, for many, and backed by a single and responsive company.

[MorphingDragon]

I've said that I normally have Flash disabled, and only enable it when I want/need the Flash content.

Then you're "talking silly", since IE8 is not unstable. You must be thinking of Safari. ;)

Never used Safari 4. Only Chrome/Firefox (Home) and IE at work. Also by your logic, at least 39 other people must be talking silly. :rolleyes:

[DMann]

Never used Safari 4. Only Chrome/Firefox (Home) and IE at work. Also by your logic, at least 39 other people must be talking silly. :rolleyes:

Those 'other' people obviously don't know how to run IE8, or 7, or 6, for that matter. :rolleyes:

Conversely, I seem to be fortunate, as Safari 4 runs circles around IE8 in terms of speed and UI.

[MorphingDragon]

Those 'other' people obviously don't know how to run IE8, or 7, or 6, for that matter. :rolleyes:

Conversely, I seem to be fortunate, as Safari 4 runs circles around IE8 in terms of speed and UI.

IE 8, no plugins, hardware firewall. I put Firefox on the computers but some of them seriously complained that the icon looked different!

[AidenShaw]

Not if one considers that the 'designer jeans' in question remain invulnerable to moths eating holes in them, permanent stains, and erosion due to the elements.

If there's an LD50 for Kool-Aid, you've passed it here - get yourself to a poison control center before it's too late.... Also, check the calibration on your tin foil hat if you think that moths are eating your denim jeans.

But yes, buy $790 jeans if the "perceived value" works for you. Even better for you if the $395/pair sale price is still in effect.


Conversely, I seem to be fortunate, as Safari 4 runs circles around IE8 in terms of speed and UI.

And once again, you butt into a conversation with a completely orthogonal argument, attempting to derail and intercept the discussion.

I doubt that anyone will say that Safari 4 is more stable than IE8, which in fact was the topic - not "speed" or "UI" (whatever that means).

Sheese....

[Music_Producer]

Sounds like a superficial woman if the label on my jeans is more important than what's in them.




And the Apple fans always boost the price of the PC by adding a bunch of features that may not be needed by the user.

That way they can claim that a $2500 quad core Mac Pro is a "better value" than a $1000 Core i7 system that's just as fast, has more memory, bigger disks, Blu-ray and a better graphics card.

I can't count on my salary arriving on time, can't count on my tax refund getting here early - but I can sure count on this guy whining away since the beginning of macrumors. Seriously man, don't you feel weird with so much pent up inside you?

On a side note - who cares if the woman at a trendy bar is superficial?! Unless you go to trendy bars to look for a life partner.

[MorphingDragon]

If there's an LD50 for Kool-Aid, you've passed it here - get yourself to a poison control center before it's too late.... Also, check the calibration on your tin foil hat if you think that moths are eating your denim jeans.

But yes, buy $790 jeans if the "perceived value" works for you.

You utter fool, moths eat anything.

[AidenShaw]

You utter fool, moths eat anything.

But according to DMann ("the 'designer jeans' in question remain invulnerable to moths eating holes in them"), not $790 designer jeans.

Perhaps they are worth the delta over the $33 Levi's jeans. Even though you could buy more than 20 pairs of Levi's for the price of one pair of designer jeans.

[KnightWRX]

But according to DMann ("the 'designer jeans' in question remain invulnerable to moths eating holes in them"), not $790 designer jeans.

Perhaps they are worth the delta over the $33 Levi's jeans. Even though you could buy more than 20 pairs of Levi's for the price of one pair of designer jeans.

The fact that you present these jeans as worthless only shows your own closed-mindeness.

It's fine that you don't see the value in the designer jeans. But some people do and are willing to pay the extra money asked for a pair. It is well worth it to them.

The fact that you ridicule these people shows how much you are closed minded and that in the end, only your own opinion counts, not that of others. This goes a long way in explaining your many anti-Apple posts on here.

And before you ask, I wear Levi's.

[DMann]

If there's an LD50 for Kool-Aid, you've passed it here - get yourself to a poison control center before it's too late.... Also, check the calibration on your tin foil hat if you think that moths are eating your denim jeans.

Moths = viruses - an analogy, to spell it out for you. If you believe that moths are incapable of eating jeans, then we'll just leave it at that. :rolleyes:

"UI" (whatever that means).

Yes, the UI of IE8, the one laden with visual noise, an incoherent mashup of buttons, and convoluted with glitter and fluff.

And once again, you butt into a conversation with a completely orthogonal argument, attempting to derail and intercept the discussion.

Speak of the devil.

Besides, we were all unaware that public forums were comprised of private dialogue.

I can't count on my salary arriving on time, can't count on my tax refund getting here early - but I can sure count on this guy whining away since the beginning of macrumors. Seriously man, don't you feel weird with so much pent up inside you?

On a side note - who cares if the woman at a trendy bar is superficial?! Unless you go to trendy bars to look for a life partner.

Old Faithful, in this regard, and many others. :)

On a side note - who cares if the woman at a trendy bar is superficial?! Unless you go to trendy bars to look for a life partner.

Apparently, he feels that the validity of his own set of values pertains to all.

[AidenShaw]

The fact that you present these jeans as worthless only shows your own closed-mindeness.

Please post a link to where I said or implied "worthless". Those are your words, not mine. Did I say that $395 for Diesel jeans was "worthless" compared to $33 for Levi's? No.

I talked about "value". Diesel jeans may be worth $79 compared to Levi's at $50 - but $790 ?????????????????

I think that y'all are really twitched that comparing $800 blue jeans to Levi's is uncomfortably close to comparing Apples to PC features and prices. Uncomfortably close. Probably doubly amplified by the common belief that Levi's makes good jeans.

[DMann]

Please post a link to where I said or implied "worthless". Those are your words, not mine. Did I say that $395 for Diesel jeans was "worthless" compared to $33 for Levi's? No.

I talked about "value". Diesel jeans may be worth $79 compared to Levi's at $50 - but $790 ?????????????????

I think that y'all are really twitched that comparing $800 blue jeans to Levi's is uncomfortably close to comparing Apples to PC features and prices. Uncomfortably close.

Your endeavor here is moot, however, since Macs running OS X happen to be impervious to PC viruses. (denim eating moths)

For me, and many users, this happens to be one of several distinguishing features which yield a greater value for Apple's solution.

[inkswamp]

* Install software that allows OS X to be installed

Not ok.

* Install an unaltered copy of OS X at the request of the customer

Not ok.

* Ship the product

Not ok.

The infringement starts around "Install software that allows OS X to be installed" and just snowballs from there.

The company I work for routinely buys computers and has the vendor install the software we buy before the box is shipped. Are you saying that's illegal?

[cmaier]

The company I work for routinely buys computers and has the vendor install the software we buy before the box is shipped. Are you saying that's illegal?

If the software you are referring to contains license restrictions preventing it from being installed on the boxes to which you refer, then he is saying it is illegal.

[*LTD*]

The company I work for routinely buys computers and has the vendor install the software we buy before the box is shipped. Are you saying that's illegal?

Depends on what the software license allows.

[macking104]

Now they want us to spend $15 on a tshirt (see website) to support their legal battle... Can we say 'how low will they go'...

[cmaier]

Now they want us to spend $15 on a tshirt (see website) to support their legal battle... Can we say 'how low will they go'...

Here's where they are in contempt of court:

"We have chosen to temporarily halt sales of Rebel EFI. Due to our ongoing litigation with Apple, Inc., we are seeking legal sanctions to continue selling our software products. We will continue to work with the Mac OS and bringing it to generic PC hardware. We will continue to support of all our products, both hardware and software. There are also plans to distribute Rebel EFI versions specific to computer configurations, such as Rebel EFI: HP mini and Rebel EFI: Dell 9 mini. Our hope is that in the weeks to come, an expedited judgment will validate the legality of Rebel EFI and all future Psystar software products. When we do start selling Rebel EFI again, users who purchase a shirt will be able to get an authentication key for their Rebel EFI software of choice."

The t-shirt is nothing but a sneaky way to sell pre-orders to Rebel EFI variations, all of which violate the judge's order.

[DMann]

Now they want us to spend $15 on a tshirt (see website) to support their legal battle... Can we say 'how low will they go'...

Do they mention that they'll throw in a DVD of 10.6 with the order?

As stated so well, in another thread:

http://images.despair.com/products/demotivators/persistence.jpg

The t-shirt is nothing but a sneaky way to sell pre-orders to Rebel EFI variations, all of which violate the judge's order.

Another chapter of the 'Good Humor Man,' delivering the goods.

[Thex1138]

Lex Apple-Luthor

[081440]

Good Grief!

It was bad enough with Bush TARP 1, Stimulus 1 ... wasteful spending. I'm surprised you're not dead from a busted "ticked off" blood vessel with what the nitwit trio of Obama, Pelosi and Reid and the Trillions of dollars wasted by the Democrats in the name of... "stimulus package", "the uninsured", "the children", "the environment", "the American people", "the taxpayer", "the jobs bill" (didn't stimulus cover that?)...

I'd much rather pay the pocket change court cost of Psystar over what those clowns in Washington are doing! :eek: :eek: :rolleyes:

Come, leave the TEA Party in power, that's Tax Everyone Again and join the OFFICIAL TEA Party, Taxed Enough Already and have your voice heard! Well heard on Fox News and mocked on MSNBC, CNN, PBS, ABC, NBC, CBS, NewYork Times, LA Times, Washington Post... but come and make your forefathers proud and protest! ;)

Haha! well said! a little political for MR - but I like it

[hiimamac]

Apple is using the law to protect their profits. Psystar is a threat to Apple's profits, therefore they are breaking the law.

I could be wring, but wasn't Apples marketshare somewhere in the 30s back in th 80s during the clone years.

Personally what differs today is that unlike before where mac had the PPC ONLY they know if they did license the software people would build faster machines at a lower cost. I think it's a ride thing now that they both use the same OS.

Peace.

[MorphingDragon]

Lex Apple-Luthor

Give me a few moments, I might be able to find the perfect SJ picture because well, i'm procrastinating... :o

[DMann]

Give me a few moments, I might be able to find the perfect SJ picture because well, i'm procrastinating... :o

http://www.theatlantic.com/images/issues/200906/steve-jobs-wide.jpg

Lex Silhouette-Luthor

[MorphingDragon]

http://www.theatlantic.com/images/issues/200906/steve-jobs-wide.jpg

Lex Silhouette-Luthor

No, all the pictures with the right look on his face are to low reso to use.

[DMann]

No, all the pictures with the right look on his face are to low reso to use.

"Tis the reason for the silhouette.

[DMann]

No, all the pictures with the right look on his face are to low reso to use.

http://gadgets.boingboing.net/steve_jobs_630x.jpg
"I hereby serve notice!"

[MorphingDragon]

http://gadgets.boingboing.net/steve_jobs_630x.jpg
"I hereby serve notice!"

Not the face I was looking for.

[DMann]

Not the face I was looking for.

http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/58500/Steve-Jobs-58997.jpg
"I hear ya."

[MorphingDragon]

http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/58500/Steve-Jobs-58997.jpg
"I hear ya."

Uhhh...

[DMann]

Uhhh...

http://www.onedigitallife.com/images/steve-jobs-by-dylanroscover.jpg
Hybrid Clone

[MorphingDragon]

http://www.onedigitallife.com/images/steve-jobs-by-dylanroscover.jpg
Hybrid Clone

You need to be banned form Google Images.

[djgamble]

Just. Go. Away.

Die Psystar. Just Die.

My exact sentiment... this does expose a BIG flaw in the US judicial system though!

They've got multiple rulings against them saying YOU MUST STOP!!! YOU ALSO OWE APPLE MONEY THAT YOU DON'T HAVE!!!!

And yet they continue to operate with no worries. Why did they take this to court if they didn't intend to respect its orders?

[DudeDad]

Basis for that?

Basic research and familiarity with the legal system (and his cases)...

[jimmyjoemccrow]

The fact that you present these jeans as worthless only shows your own closed-mindeness.

It's fine that you don't see the value in the designer jeans. But some people do and are willing to pay the extra money asked for a pair. It is well worth it to them.

The fact that you ridicule these people shows how much you are closed minded and that in the end, only your own opinion counts, not that of others. This goes a long way in explaining your many anti-Apple posts on here.

And before you ask, I wear Levi's.

You are just arguing for the sake of arguing. Unless you think that the people who pay more for designer jeans really aren't doing anything but fooling themselves. If I take a piece of cloth and label it Armani then people will be willing to pay more for it because they perceive it as having properties superior to cloth not labelled Armani. This is superstition, on the same level as believing in the tooth fairy.

[gnasher729]

My exact sentiment... this does expose a BIG flaw in the US judicial system though!

They've got multiple rulings against them saying YOU MUST STOP!!! YOU ALSO OWE APPLE MONEY THAT YOU DON'T HAVE!!!!

And yet they continue to operate with no worries. Why did they take this to court if they didn't intend to respect its orders?

1. They didn't take this to court, Apple did.

2. If this was a normal business, then you would want them to keep running their business apart from the illegal bits, and make money, so that they can pay damages to Apple at some point in the future. And that kind of decision is very hard for a judge to make.

3. I would hope that if they do anything in violation of the court injunction, the company officers responsible for this would be held _personally_ responsible.

[cmaier]

Basic research and familiarity with the legal system (and his cases)...

Care to share?

[satcomer]

OK, so the $790 designer blue jeans on the left (half-price today, only $395) are not overpriced compared to the $48 Levi's jeans (marked down to $33) on the right, if you perceive the designer jeans to be a better value.

Now I understand Apple's margins.

IE Adrian? Are you even serious or are you paid to post here?

[DMann]

You are just arguing for the sake of arguing. Unless you think that the people who pay more for designer jeans really aren't doing anything but fooling themselves. If I take a piece of cloth and label it Armani then people will be willing to pay more for it because they perceive it as having properties superior to cloth not labelled Armani. This is superstition, on the same level as believing in the tooth fairy.

Do distinguishing factors such as the design, cut, fit, grade of denim, style, and finish somehow not factor into the equation of what is considered more highly valued than what is not?

I'll gladly pay more for an expensive pair of designer jeans which accentuates and complements the contours and form of the body better than competitors brands.

Superior qualities, indeed - this is hardly superstition.

IE Adrian? Are you even serious or are you paid to post here?

Either way - quite conspicuous, ain't it?

[hiimamac]

I like the car quote but hasn't mac, once made and assembled in the USA and mac pros were $1499 for the creative not in house studios like braci only, brome the chyrsler of jags now? I mean Apple really just caters to mom and pop consumers, iPhone and now even one to one training has become all about iLife now, not highend pro at all like when Pro care came with onr to one, both for $99Your endeavor here is moot, however, since Macs running OS X happen to be impervious to PC viruses. (denim eating moths)

For me, and many users, this happens to be one of several distinguishing features which yield a greater value for Apple's solution.



That's right, BMWs are low on the scale of worth, as well as value.

Speaking of priceless.



Yet so typical.

It's especially revealing that he's the one who bashes Justin Long for being smug.

[Gaelic2]

I am just don't understand how a company that barely sell few computers still fighting and paying a lot of money to lawyers. How in hell do these guys have so much money with not business at all? :confused:

The question is,"Who are the deep pockets backing all this legal action and why??" It would be most interesting to find this out!

[leekohler]

I like the car quote but hasn't mac, once made and assembled in the USA and mac pros were $1499 for the creative not in house studios like braci only, brome the chyrsler of jags now? I mean Apple really just caters to mom and pop consumers, iPhone and now even one to one training has become all about iLife now, not highend pro at all like when Pro care came with onr to one, both for $99

Exactly- Ferrari never made inexpensive sports cars, so the comparison is irrelevant. Apple did make relatively affordable towers. All we're asking is that they do so again, or we take our business elsewhere. That is not unreasonable, and it's also what gave companies like Psystar a reason to exist in the first place. The easiest way to put Psystar out of business is to plug that hole in their line up. Probably cheaper than lawsuits and lawyers too.

[KnightWRX]

I like the car quote but hasn't mac, once made and assembled in the USA and mac pros were $1499 for the creative not in house studios like braci only,

PowerMacs sold for 1499$ were not even close to the Mac Pros sold today. They were consumer grade hardware. Very much the xMac everyone is crying for.

Exactly- Ferrari never made inexpensive sports cars, so the comparison is irrelevant. Apple did make relatively affordable towers. All we're asking is that they do so again, or we take our business elsewhere. That is not unreasonable, and it's also what gave companies like Psystar a reason to exist in the first place. The easiest way to put Psystar out of business is to plug that hole in their line up. Probably cheaper than lawsuits and lawyers too.

Again, since you seemed to have missed that fact, Psystar sold less than 800 PCs. If Apple was in the market before and isn't anymore, can you think of any good reasons why ?

Go elsewhere if Apple's products don't fit your needs, stop justifying your unlawful hackintoshing because of it.

[leekohler]

Go elsewhere if Apple's products don't fit your needs, stop justifying your unlawful hackintoshing because of it.

I'll do whatever I want. Get over it. If it upsets Apple so much that I build a hackintosh, let them come after me.

Obviously, Psystar scares them enough to take legal action. If they didn't, Apple wouldn't bother with them. There's more to this story.

[*LTD*]

Exactly- Ferrari never made inexpensive sports cars, so the comparison is irrelevant. Apple did make relatively affordable towers. All we're asking is that they do so again, or we take our business elsewhere.

"We"? Who's "we"? You mean the minority of a minority? There's not enough of you to matter. On Mac forums there's always around 5-6 guys wanting Macs to behave more like generic PCs and expecting Apple cater to them because they assume (wrongly) that the bulk of Apple's market wants this or cares about this.

Give it up, already.

I'll do whatever I want. Get over it. If it upsets Apple so much that I build a hackintosh, let them come after me.

Obviously, Psystar scares them enough to take legal action. If they didn't, Apple wouldn't bother with them. There's more to this story.

The only "more" to this story is Apple clarifying its IP rights, hence clarifying its business model and getting a green light from regulators.

No one wanted Psystar's garbage. They barely sold any. There's no demand for fake Macs.

[leekohler]

"We"? Who's "we"? You mean the minority of a minority? There's not enough of you to matter. On Mac forums there's always around 5-6 guys wanting Macs to behave more like generic PCs and expecting Apple cater to them because they assume (wrongly) that the bulk of Apple's market wants this or cares about this.

Give it up, already.

Not going to. Deal with it. There's not enough of us to matter? Oh, OK. :rolleyes: We'll see.

The only "more" to this story is Apple clarifying its IP rights, hence clarifying its business model and getting a green light from regulators.

No one wanted Psystar's garbage. They barely sold any. There's no demand for fake Macs.

If no one wants it, then Psystar should go out of business all on it's own, right? Why bother?

[DMann]

Obviously, Psystar scares them enough to take legal action. If they didn't, Apple wouldn't bother with them. There's more to this story.

The main concern here has to do with the validity and relevance of the EULA, without which, both Apple and Microsoft would be royally screwed.

Psystars business, outside of any shift in precedent, is insignificant to Apple.

[leekohler]

The main concern here has to do with the validity and relevance of the EULA, without which, both Apple and Microsoft would be royally screwed.

Psystars business, outside of any shift in precedent, is insignificant to Apple.

Now that makes more sense.

What I really object to here on this forum is people telling me to stop talking and go away. I've used Mac since the 80s. I don't think my opinion is irrelevant, nor do I think I should just be told to shut up.

We got matte screens back on laptops, we can get a mid range tower too. We just have to keep talking.

[DudeDad]

Care to share?

Your links in your signature suggest you may be a lawyer, so you can research him....love the blub here and some of the comments from those who claim to know him:

http://abovethelaw.com/2009/05/kiwi_camara_jammie_thomas.php

(I'm not suggesting that abovethelaw.com is a reliable source for research, but you get a nice flavor of this character)

[cmaier]

Your links in your signature suggest you may be a lawyer, so you can research him....love the blub here and some of the comments from those who claim to know him:

http://abovethelaw.com/2009/05/kiwi_camara_jammie_thomas.php

(I'm not suggesting that abovethelaw.com is a reliable source for research, but you get a nice flavor of this character)

Thanks for the link!

[*LTD*]

Not going to. Deal with it. There's not enough of us to matter? Oh, OK. :rolleyes: We'll see.

What, are all 30 of you going to storm Apple HQ in Cupertino or something?

If no one wants it, then Psystar should go out of business all on it's own, right? Why bother?

Psystar is offcially out of the fake Mac business. They sold less than 800 units. At some point, it was just a game to them and their attorneys, and near the end, the point was not to sell units (since no one was buying anyway) but to challenge Apple's EULA and business model in order to make headlines.

Apple reintroduced a matte option (limited to certain models) because a) glossy displays could interfere with colour matching and b) they presented usability issues and potential health risks to general users.

[KnightWRX]

Not going to. Deal with it. There's not enough of us to matter? Oh, OK. :rolleyes: We'll see.

Actually, we saw. Declining sales of desktop models in favor of notebooks in the consumer market, popularity of the All-in-ones and SFF vs standard desktops is basically what drove the PowerMac of yesterday (the 1599$, mid-range model at the time) into a ECC memory using, workstation grade processor and hardware system for semi-pros and pros.

Apple was in the mid-range market before. They were there since way before PCs costs less than 1000$. They were competitive back when competitive was a 450 mhz system with 256 MB ram for under 2000$.

They left that market behind, the very market you want them back in.

If no one wants it, then Psystar should go out of business all on it's own, right? Why bother?

Because leaving them alone would be an endorsement of their business model. Something Apple doesn't want after *gasp* *shock* having "been there, done that" before. Power computing, UMAX were authorised to make clones and in Steve's absence almost killed Apple.

[leekohler]

What, are all 30 of you going to storm Apple HQ in Cupertino or something?


Wow- that was mature. :rolleyes:

BTW- I'm not going to shut up about this. Deal with it. I've been a Mac user for almost three decades. I'll say what I want, and I will continue to ask for what I want. You don't have to like that.

Power computing, UMAX were authorised to make clones and in Steve's absence almost killed Apple.


I thought there weren't enough of us to matter.

[*LTD*]

Wow- that was mature. :rolleyes:

It's reality.

BTW- I'm not going to shut up about this. Deal with it. I've been a Mac user for almost three decades. I'll say what I want, and I will continue to ask for what I want. You don't have to like that.

Ok, you're more than welcome to continue your crusade. No one here is saying you don't have a right to be tiresome.

\

I thought there weren't enough of us to matter.

There aren't. The Apple of 1995 is not the same as the Apple of 2009. Nor is the market. Same goes for MS. Same goes for Dell, etc.

[leekohler]

It's reality.


Proof that there are only 30 people who want mid range towers or GTFO. If Psystar sold 800 machines, that refutes your claim right there.

And yeah, I have a right to my opinion and right to speak it. You don't have to like it.

[KnightWRX]

I thought there weren't enough of us to matter.

Wow, are you dense on purpose ? In those days, Apple offered exactly what you wanted. You have been an Apple user for 30 years like you say right ? So you know that Steve's absence and UMAX and Power Computing clones were things of the 90s. In fact, before 1998, when Steve returned as temporary CEO and killed their licensing.

So in the 90s, clone makers almost killed Apple. This was a period in which desktop systems were very much in demand, above and beyond laptops which were seen as mostly a business tool. Apple made a desktop in those days that very much classifies as a mid-range tower you want.

Flash forward to the mid 00s, and the PowerMac morphed from a 1599$ system that was competitive because the cheap bargain basement low end systems weren't on the market yet to a professionnal grade workstation as Apple saw a decline in sales in their desktop systems in favor of AiO like the iMac and SFF PCs (to which they responded with the Mini) and to notebooks in general which were now seen as trendy and handy tools for the average consumer.

Now, back to 2008, were Psystar again tries to revive the Mac clone market. There's no xMac anymore, no mid-range tower from Apple. A very marginal group sees this as a response to Apple not making a xMac, while Apple sees it as somebody trying to unlawfully revive the clone market that almost killed them. They go after Psystar and we learn that mid-range tower Macs were in fact marginal at best with sales figure under 1000 systems in a year.

[*LTD*]

Proof that there are only 30 people who want mid range towers or GTFO. If Psystar sold 800 machines, that refutes your claim right there.

And yeah, I have a right to my opinion and right to speak it. You don't have to like it.

LOL, did you honestly think "30" was meant as a serious number? It was meant to illustrate a very real point.

Um . . . yeah, there are exactly 30 of you! :rolleyes:

And 800 (768, actually) machines is peanuts, especially in a year and 7 months. No wonder they couldn't keep themselves solvent.

[leekohler]

Wow, are you dense on purpose ? In those days, Apple offered exactly what you wanted. You have been an Apple user for 30 years like you say right ? So you know that Steve's absence and UMAX and Power Computing clones were things of the 90s. In fact, before 1998, when Steve returned as temporary CEO and killed their licensing.

Apple did no such thing. Other companies offered what I wanted. Apple did not. However, after said debacle, which I agree was a mistake, Macs did become more affordable.

[KnightWRX]

Apple did no such thing. Other companies offered what I wanted. Apple did not.

And which Apple system didn't meet your standards in the times of UMAX and Power Computing ?

Was there something wrong in the pricing of the many LC and Performa options ? Compared to PCs at the time, the price didn't seem so far fetch.

[dukebound85]

LOL, did you honestly think "30" was meant as a serious number? It was meant to illustrate a very real point.

Um . . . yeah, there are exactly 30 of you! :rolleyes:

And 800 (768, actually) machines is peanuts, especially in a year and 7 months. No wonder they couldn't keep themselves solvent without outside help.
How much you want to bet that if apple released a mid range desktop that it
1) would be the best selling apple desktop (if it were specced and priced right)
2) forum members here would be praising apple

the fact is that there are many who think that whatever move apple makes is golden so if they dont have a product, it must be a bad idea but once they make it, it is without question a great move


The very evidence of the hackintosh scene in itself is proof that there is a hole in the lineup

[leekohler]

And which Apple system didn't meet your standards in the times of UMAX and Power Computing ?

Was there something wrong in the pricing of the many LC and Performa options ? Compared to PCs at the time, the price didn't seem so far fetch.

I bought a Umax back then. It was inexpensive and ran Mac OS. It was still not cheap by PC standards, but it was better than paying for what was available at Apple the time. After the clone debacle, which was definitely a bad idea, I owned a G4 tower and an iBook. Now I own a black MacBook and the last G5 tower. All I consider to be good purchases and worth the money. I simply cannot and will not spend $3,000 on a tower.

How much you want to bet that if apple released a mid range desktop that it
1) would be the best selling apple desktop (if it were specced and priced right)
2) forum members here would be praising apple

the fact is that there are many who think that whatever move apple makes is golden so if they dont have a product, it must be a bad idea but once they make it, it is without question a great move


The very evidence of the hackintosh scene in itself is proof that there is a hole in the lineup

Exactly.

[KnightWRX]

I bought a Umax back then. It was inexpensive and ran Mac OS. It was still not cheap by PC standards, but it was better than paying for what was available at Apple the time. After the clone debacle, which was definitely a bad idea, I owned a G4 tower and an iBook. Now I own a black MacBook and the last G5 tower.

Looking back at apple-history.com and EveryMac, pricing on the LC and Performa series was available in the mid 1k range, pretty much the standard pricing on PCs of the day.

UMAX might have been cheaper, but we're far from the Dell Inspiron for 300$ vs Mac Pro for 2500$ comparisons we get today by Apple haters.

Makes me think you're not quite being honest.

How much you want to bet that if apple released a mid range desktop that it
1) would be the best selling apple desktop (if it were specced and priced right)


So you're saying Apple could pull off a New Coke ? I very doubt it. Coke did it in the 80s and it was pretty much a shot in the dark that had 1 chance in a million of working. The fact that Coke executives to this day still say they weren't savvy enough to even have thought about it and the whole thing was just a big stroke of luck tells us a lot about these kind of scenarios.

The best that would happen would be some initial pre-launch and launch hype. Big order numbers for a few weeks/months, and then it would go back to the way it was when Apple finally stopped selling the PowerMac for under 2k$.

[leekohler]

Looking back at apple-history.com and EveryMac, pricing on the LC and Performa series was available in the mid 1k range, pretty much the standard pricing on PCs of the day.

UMAX might have been cheaper, but we're far from the Dell Inspiron for 300$ vs Mac Pro for 2500$ comparisons we get today by Apple haters.

Makes me think you're not quite being honest.

What am I not being honest about?

And a Umax was $999.

[*LTD*]

The very evidence of the hackintosh scene in itself is proof that there is a hole in the lineup

So?

Of course there's a hole in the lineup. Where you and others like you err, however, is that you consider this a major problem.

[cmaier]

So?

Of course there's a hole in the lineup. Where you and others like you err, however, is that you consider this a major problem.

There is a hole, but the hackintosh scene isn't evidence of it. People would hackintosh in any event.

[dukebound85]

So you're saying Apple could pull off a New Coke ? I very doubt it. Coke did it in the 80s and it was pretty much a shot in the dark that had 1 chance in a million of working. The fact that Coke executives to this day still say they weren't savvy enough to even have thought about it and the whole thing was just a big stroke of luck tells us a lot about these kind of scenarios.

The best that would happen would be some initial pre-launch and launch hype. Big order numbers for a few weeks/months, and then it would go back to the way it was when Apple finally stopped selling the PowerMac for under 2k$.

Annnnd I still stand by my statement. When it happens, and it will, Apple fans will applaud it

To think there isn't a market for an affordable desktop that isn't crippled or 2k+ in price is silly

Markets are never static

So?

Of course there's a hole in the lineup. Where you and others like you err, however, is that you consider this a major problem.

I am speculating just like you are speculating.

We don't work for apple and yes, they are doing well but to think that they cant do better is being ignorant.

Here is a question, what are your thoughts on this rumored tablet? Why should apple go into a weak market when they are already doing well?

There is a hole, but the hackintosh scene isn't evidence of it. People would hackintosh in any event.
I don't see how you can come to that conclusion. If anything its a combination of a hole and people that do so for the sake of hacking

[leekohler]

Annnnd I still stand by my statement. When it happens, and it will, Apple fans will applaud it

To think there isn't a market for an affordable desktop that isn't crippled or 2k+ in price is silly

Markets are never static

I'm not saying we have to go back to $1499 either. $2,000 is fine. But where they are now just seems like shutting too many people out.

[KnightWRX]

Annnnd I still stand by my statement. When it happens, and it will, Apple fans will applaud it

To think there isn't a market for an affordable desktop that isn't crippled or 2k+ in price is silly

Markets are never static

There isn't a market for mid-range desktops. There's a market for the bottom of the barrel low end desktops, but in there, comeptition is fierce and margins are razor thin. Apple said and continues to show it won't ever enter such a market.

The fact is, there isn't a mid-range tower market anymore. The few boxes that do sell in the 1k-2k$ price range is gamer systems. It's a small niche, it isn't that profitable as gamers usually want higher end components that have high costs attached to them and require that games be available. While Mac games do exist, they do not even measure to the kind of availability that there is on Windows.

This is what drove Apple out of the segment in the first place. Now you think they can go back and be successful where they weren't in the last few months/years they were in it ?

Wishful thinking.

Here is a question, what are your thoughts on this rumored tablet? Why should apple go into a weak market when they are already doing well?

This is where *LTD* and I split up. He sees that Apple will revolutionnize the tablet the market, I see that the tablet market is not a big up and comer. Apple likes up and coming markets or very successfully established markets where they can leave a mark. Mp3 players and cellphones made sense. The tablet, not so much. A dedicated e-reader with iTunes Book Store at a low price to compete with the Nook and Kindle ? Not in the Apple's cords. The Apple TV pretty much proved to them that single function devices are a thing of the past, people like consolidation.

The tablet will fall in the same category a revived PowerMac type computer would, big initial launch hype and orders and then it would fizzle and die with low sales number and few updates until it gets killed.

What am I not being honest about?

And a Umax was $999.

The fact that you are mixing history, partially quoting and then mangling our words to make an argument that is completely out of this world ? That's what you're dishonest about.

[DMann]

There isn't a market for mid-range desktops. There's a market for the bottom of the barrel low end desktops, but in there, comeptition is fierce and margins are razor thin. Apple said and continues to show it won't ever enter such a market.

The fact is, there isn't a mid-range tower market anymore. The few boxes that do sell in the 1k-2k$ price range is gamer systems. It's a small niche, it isn't that profitable as gamers usually want higher end components that have high costs attached to them and require that games be available. While Mac games do exist, they do not even measure to the kind of availability that there is on Windows.

This is what drove Apple out of the segment in the first place. Now you think they can go back and be successful where they weren't in the last few months/years they were in it ?

Wishful thinking.

Thus, the reason for the alleged "gaping hole" in the lineup.

If it weren't for the inception of the bottom of the barrel low end desktop market, the ~$2,000 Mac Desktop/Tower would likely have remained.

Bargain Hunters be damned.

[KnightWRX]

Thus, the reason for the alleged "gaping hole" in the lineup.

Oh there is a gaping hole in the Apple line-up. Low-end desktop, mid-range desktop, low end laptops including laptops who's screen size isn't attached to price. This is a big market (except the mid-range desktops), as evidenced by the tons of such systems sold by Dell and at retail outlets like Best Buy.

The thing is, it's also the least profitable end of the market. Apple has decided it would be a niche player and it plays its niches well. Gaming is not a niche Apple can compete in due to the effort in recruiting 3rd party developers. Chicken and egg problem that the iPhone didn't present (since it wasn't a gaming device initially).

The thing with niche players is that they provide products for a few people. Not everyone is going to find something that makes him happy. The people that keep insisting Apple should cater to them don't quite get Apple and will always be frustrated.

[leekohler]

The fact that you are mixing history, partially quoting and then mangling our words to make an argument that is completely out of this world ? That's what you're dishonest about.

How am I "mixing history"?

[carmenodie]

I have a feeling that MS is behind this crap too. Look, if Apple did go and license off OSX they would be in the same boat as MS. Trying to get cheaper and cheaper pcs out the door so they can get that licensing money. The pc is a commercially worn out hot mess. MS is being chided by Wall Street to get that stock up. But how can they since they achieved their goal of putting a pc on every freaking desk. Hell(no pun intended), Jesus Christ was given a pc and because it sucks and has gotten viruses our lord and savior doesn't even know he's ready to return and take my a** out this b****. If he had a Mac we'd be in heaven right now.
Why'd I go off topic?

Burn up Paystar! BUUUUUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRNNNNNNNNNNAAAAHHHHH!!!!

[DMann]

Oh there is a gaping hole in the Apple line-up. Low-end desktop, mid-range desktop, low end laptops including laptops who's screen size isn't attached to price. This is a big market (except the mid-range desktops), as evidenced by the tons of such systems sold by Dell and at retail outlets like Best Buy.

The thing is, it's also the least profitable end of the market. Apple has decided it would be a niche player and it plays its niches well. Gaming is not a niche Apple can compete in due to the effort in recruiting 3rd party developers. Chicken and egg problem that the iPhone didn't present (since it wasn't a gaming device initially).

The thing with niche players is that they provide products for a few people. Not everyone is going to find something that makes him happy. The people that keep insisting Apple should cater to them don't quite get Apple and will always be frustrated.

Yes, I was agreeing with you - the gaping hole is justified by the current market demand.

[KnightWRX]

Yes, I was agreeing with you - the gaping hole is justified by the current market demand.

Yes I know, I was only reenforcing your point.

[DMann]

I have a feeling that MS is behind this crap too.

It would be highly unlikely that MS would be behind this crap, though, as they would have the most to lose, in regard to licensing fees, etc.

[dejo]

And yeah, I have a right to my opinion and right to speak it. You don't have to like it.
You, of course, have a right to your opinion. We all do. But as for your right to freedom of speech, I'm afraid that right does not apply in these (private) forums. But keep up the discussion! It's entertaining, to say the least.

[*LTD*]

Hehe . . . at the end of the day, none of this really matters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17jymDn0W6U

[MorphingDragon]

Apple reintroduced a matte option (limited to certain models) because a) glossy displays could interfere with colour matching and b) they presented usability issues and potential health risks to general users.

A "proper" crystal (No not crystal display) screen will enhance every colour and not dull the blacks. Why doesn't Apple use crystal? Synthetic Led Oxide doesnt cost much. I had the pleasure of seeing one at a photographers custom build, cost him a few grand...

[*LTD*]

A "proper" crystal (No not crystal display) screen will enhance every colour and not dull the blacks. Why doesn't Apple use crystal? Synthetic Led Oxide doesnt cost much. I had the pleasure of seeing one at a photographers custom build, cost him a few grand...

What, now you want friggin Swarovsky in your Mac?? ;)

[MorphingDragon]

What, now you want friggin Swarovsky in your Mac?? ;)

You joke now but the crystal overlay really is THAT good.

[*LTD*]

You joke now but the crystal overlay really is THAT good.

I believe you. But do you foresee any way it might be impractical or inefficient or costly, etc? What might Apple's objections be, if any?

[MorphingDragon]

I believe you. But do you foresee any way it might be impractical or inefficient or costly, etc? What might Apple's objections be, if any?

It uses lead. Around about 25% in making crystal glass. Leads expensive and toxic. They would probably loose their energy star rating.

[cmaier]

Leads expensive and toxic.

And, like bacon, delicious.

[Eidorian]

It uses lead. Around about 25% in making crystal glass. Leads expensive and toxic. They would probably loose their energy star rating.I don't think the glass has much to do with power consumption and efficiency.

[MorphingDragon]

And, like bacon, delicious.

http://scienceblogs.com/clock/How%20to%20ROFL.png

I don't think the glass has much to do with power consumption and efficiency.

Maybe im thinking of another standard. :confused:

[MorphingDragon]

Dp

[cmaier]

Maybe im thinking of another standard. :confused:

Do they take manufacturing and disposal effects into account for that rating?

[BaldiMac]

Maybe im thinking of another standard. :confused:

Probably EPEAT rating.

[DMann]

Do they take manufacturing and disposal effects into account for that rating?

Disposal, for sure.

Manufacturing, most likely.

[*LTD*]

And, like bacon, delicious.

Ha! Well played. :)

Seems with the lead issue, Apple would be less "green." I forget what the term for that measure is, though.

[DMann]

Ha! Well played. :)

Seems with the lead issue, Apple would be less "green." I forget what the term for that measure is, though.

Lead content would be assessed using EPEAT (http://www.epeat.net/) (Electronic Product Environmental Assessment Tool) standards.

http://www.treehugger.com/epeat-and-ecologo.jpg

[nicbrown]

Proof that there are only 30 people who want mid range towers or GTFO. If Psystar sold 800 machines, that refutes your claim right there.

And yeah, I have a right to my opinion and right to speak it. You don't have to like it.

How about the Geekbench results browser (http://browse.geekbench.ca/geekbench2/search?q=hackintosh&commit=Search)?

1284 pages of Hackintosh benchmark results, 10 results per page. You do the math.

Yes, some are multiple benchmarks from the same machine during overclock testing, but by the same token, only a small percentage of Hackintosh builders bother benchmarking.

As of 2009 (and 2010), the freedom and convenience of modular PC hardware is much better than any consumer desktop Mac, and it is a fraction of the cost of the pro systems. Because of this, there are tens of thousands of Hackintoshes out there, mine included.

If you look through the benchmarks, there are an awful lot of high end Hackintoshes being built. These are not people getting something for nothing, but those that are willing to put time and money into building the precise system that meets their needs. You know, the whole "But it is just as cheap to buy an iMac" argument. Perfectly true. My Hackintosh cost pretty much the same as the equivalent iMac, but has a much better graphics card with the downside of no support and warranty.

Apple IS missing out on netbook and midrange desktop sales. The whole Psystar debacle is just a distraction.

The sad thing is, most Hackintosh builders (myself included) would LOVE an official Apple product that meets their needs.

[MorphingDragon]

How about the Geekbench results browser (http://browse.geekbench.ca/geekbench2/search?q=hackintosh&commit=Search)?

1284 pages of Hackintosh benchmark results, 10 results per page. You do the math.

Yes, some are multiple benchmarks from the same machine during overclock testing, but by the same token, only a small percentage of Hackintosh builders bother benchmarking.

As of 2009 (and 2010), the freedom and convenience of modular PC hardware is much better than any consumer desktop Mac, and it is a fraction of the cost of the pro systems. Because of this, there are tens of thousands of Hackintoshes out there, mine included.

If you look through the benchmarks, there are an awful lot of high end Hackintoshes being built. These are not people getting something for nothing, but those that are willing to put time and money into building the precise system that meets their needs. You know, the whole "But it is just as cheap to buy an iMac" argument. Perfectly true. My Hackintosh cost pretty much the same as the equivalent iMac, but has a much better graphics card with the downside of no support and warranty.

Apple IS missing out on netbook and midrange desktop sales. The whole Psystar debacle is just a distraction.

The sad thing is, most Hackintosh builders (myself included) would LOVE an official Apple product that meets their needs.

What missing sales? How much more .1 billion does Apple need?

[Shodan]

The sad thing is, most Hackintosh builders (myself included) would LOVE an official Apple product that meets their needs.

Yes and people like you also want a Ferrari to meet their needs - e.g - Cheap, fast and to have the wow factor.

Ent gunna happen mate, you pay for quality.

[nicbrown]

Yes and people like you also want a Ferrari to meet their needs - e.g - Cheap, fast and to have the wow factor.

Ent gunna happen mate, you pay for quality.

What has Ferrari got to do with it? What a load of toss.

Apple computers are built using the same chipsets as any generic PC. That is why Hackintoshes are trivial to build. Buy one of dozens of generic motherboards based on the intel reference design (as iMacs and Mac Pros are) and you are good to go. The exact same chips, on boards coming out of the exact same factory as your 'Ferrari'.

Let me spell it out for you. People are not building Hackintoshes because they are cheaper. They are in fact barely 'cost effective'.

People are building Hackintoshes because you can upgrade the display, processor and graphics card at will. And judging by the specs of machines on the Geekbench browser they are willing to pay just as much as an iMac for their ugly, but screaming fast machines.

Apple can either meet the market demand and take a cut of the profit, or they can ignore it and let PC parts manufacturers share in the spoils of Apples good work.

[BaldiMac]

Apple can either meet the market demand and take a cut of the profit, or they can ignore it and let PC parts manufacturers share in the spoils of Apples good work.

Could you please share any market research that you have come across on how this product would affect sales of iMacs and Mac Pros? In addition, an analysis of how further dividing Apple's engineering resources would affect product quality and support would also be important. :rolleyes:

[pepstone]

As of this morning, each product description on their web site provides the following statement:

We have chosen to temporarily halt sales of Rebel EFI. Due to our ongoing litigation with Apple, Inc., we are seeking legal sanctions to continue selling our software products. We will continue to work with the Mac OS and bringing it to generic PC hardware. We will continue to support of all our products, both hardware and software. There are also plans to distribute Rebel EFI versions specific to computer configurations, such as Rebel EFI: HP mini and Rebel EFI: Dell 9 mini. Our hope is that in the weeks to come, an expedited judgment will validate the legality of Rebel EFI and all future Psystar software products.

Pathetic is the emphasis here: while Psystar states that t-shirts are now available, they don’t even bother posting a picture. Alas, it seems that formerly all-defiant Psystar, which touted facilities and a vision of beating Apple’s proprietary rights on OS X, is now on the curb, becoming the lone pauper that promises the public that the donations will help pull Psystar from the brink, but may very well be only enough to buy a cheeseburger to survive the day.

[gnasher729]

Your links in your signature suggest you may be a lawyer, so you can research him....love the blub here and some of the comments from those who claim to know him:

http://abovethelaw.com/2009/05/kiwi_camara_jammie_thomas.php

(I'm not suggesting that abovethelaw.com is a reliable source for research, but you get a nice flavor of this character)

Well, that case didn't work out well for Camara's client... Swapping a $220,000 judgement for a $1.92 million judgement...

I guess Kiwi Camara would have wanted the Apple case first, because where Jammie Thomas was ordered to pay $80,000 for each of 24 songs that were found in your sharing folder (each worth less than $1, with no evidence and not even much likelihood that many copies were made), Apple asked for $30,000 each for copying Leopard and Snow Leopard, which are each worth not $1 but probably somewhere around $200 to $400 (because the low price Apple charges is exclusively for people who gave Apple lots of money for a computer with an earlier version of MacOS X installed), and there was evidence of around 800 copies made and distributed for commercial reasons. (The real charge was Apple asking for $2500 per DMCA violation, and each copy installed was a violation, something that Jammie Thomas never did).

So in the Apple case, the total value of the products copied was probably 40 times higher, the number of copies made probably 100 times higher, so keeping these numbers in mind, Jammie Thomas should have paid $60000, divided by 40, divided by 100, which makes it $15. Instead she was ordered to pay $1.92 million.

I think if Camara could have shown the jury in the Jammie Thomas case that Apple asked for $30,000 for making 800 copies of their operating system, he should have managed to convince them that just putting a $1 song into a shared folder should not be worth $80,000.

[cmaier]

Well, that case didn't work out well for Camara's client... Swapping a $220,000 judgement for a $1.92 million judgement...

I guess Kiwi Camara would have wanted the Apple case first, because where Jammie Thomas was ordered to pay $80,000 for each of 24 songs that were found in your sharing folder (each worth less than $1, with no evidence and not even much likelihood that many copies were made), Apple asked for $30,000 each for copying Leopard and Snow Leopard, which are each worth not $1 but probably somewhere around $200 to $400 (because the low price Apple charges is exclusively for people who gave Apple lots of money for a computer with an earlier version of MacOS X installed), and there was evidence of around 800 copies made and distributed for commercial reasons. (The real charge was Apple asking for $2500 per DMCA violation, and each copy installed was a violation, something that Jammie Thomas never did).

So in the Apple case, the total value of the products copied was probably 40 times higher, the number of copies made probably 100 times higher, so keeping these numbers in mind, Jammie Thomas should have paid $60000, divided by 40, divided by 100, which makes it $15. Instead she was ordered to pay $1.92 million.

I think if Camara could have shown the jury in the Jammie Thomas case that Apple asked for $30,000 for making 800 copies of their operating system, he should have managed to convince them that just putting a $1 song into a shared folder should not be worth $80,000.

I understand your point, but, of course, the value of the property isn't relevant to statutory damages.

[nicbrown]

Could you please share any market research that you have come across on how this product would affect sales of iMacs and Mac Pros? In addition, an analysis of how further dividing Apple's engineering resources would affect product quality and support would also be important. :rolleyes:

I never said it would have any effect on the sales of Mac Pros or iMacs. People are building Hackintoshes to provide themselves with the Mac that Apple won't sell.

Hackintosh builders are already NOT buying iMacs or Mac Pros, nor the Mini. And if Apple is worried about hurting Mac Pro sales, then it should drop the i7 iMac option immediately ;)

All the profit from these machines has gone to PC part manufacturers. Mainly Gigabyte, ASUS and Intel.

What percentage of Hackintosh builders do you think run Geekbench? There are currently 12000 benchmarks. Lets round that down to 10000 to account for overclocking related dupes. 1/4? - 40,000 hackintoshes. 1/10? - 100000 machines. Guesstimates, but not unreasonable, given the evidence.

All built with no keynote hype, no marketing, and in spite of the warnings of doomer Apple fans.

If you put aside your blind faith in Apple for a bit and look at the phenomenon, it IS interesting, to say the least.

EFI bootloaders are out of the bag. Apple can't lock out hackintoshes built on Intel chipsets without locking out all current Mac hardware. Will it embrace emerging hackintosh 'products'? - I think that it will ignore them for at least another year. The phenomenon is 'growing the ecosystem' and maybe making converts. And ultimately, Apple as a company has fallen hard for the handheld...

[BaldiMac]

I never said it would have any effect on the sales of Mac Pros or iMacs. People are building Hackintoshes to provide themselves with the Mac that Apple won't sell.

No, you said that they could take a cut of the profit or let others take it. Those are not the only two options. I was just pointing out that that there is no guarantee that selling an upgradeable, mid-range tower would increase Apple's profits.

Hackintosh builders are already NOT buying iMacs or Mac Pros, nor the Mini. And if Apple is worried about hurting Mac Pro sales, then it should drop the i7 iMac option immediately ;)

I think that is the whole point. If upgradeable, mid-range towers were not an option (via hackintosh) would some of them buy iMacs or Mac Pros?

All the profit from these machines has gone to PC part manufacturers. Mainly Gigabyte, ASUS and Intel.

So? :confused:

What percentage of Hackintosh builders do you think run Geekbench? There are currently 12000 benchmarks. Lets round that down to 10000 to account for overclocking related dupes. 1/4? - 40,000 hackintoshes. 1/10? - 100000 machines. Guesstimates, but not unreasonable, given the evidence.

All built with no keynote hype, no marketing, and in spite of the warnings of doomer Apple fans.

I've never made any claims as to the number of hackintoshes. But what do those numbers show even if they are reasonable? 100,000 machines over the last 2 or 3 years. Compared to 10,000,000 Macs sold a year.

If you put aside your blind faith in Apple for a bit and look at the phenomenon, it IS interesting, to say the least.

I have no blind faith in Apple. But I have more faith in the Apple executive team's ability to run their business than I do most forum posters.

EFI bootloaders are out of the bag. Apple can't lock out hackintoshes built on Intel chipsets without locking out all current Mac hardware. Will it embrace emerging hackintosh 'products'? - I think that it will ignore them for at least another year. The phenomenon is 'growing the ecosystem' and maybe making converts. And ultimately, Apple as a company has fallen hard for the handheld...

Why would it "embrace emerging hackintosh 'products'"?

[*LTD*]

http://www.psystar.com/

Psystar Temporarily Halts Sale of Rebel EFI
December 22, 2009

Psystar has voluntarily suspended the sale of our Rebel EFI software product. Psystar feels it would be prudent to halt the sale of Rebel EFI while we explicitly ask the court for clarification on the legality of Rebel EFI. Our patience has been tested but our resolve is unwavering. Psystar's vision of bringing the Mac OS to generic PC hardware is and always will be unyielding. Although Rebel EFI may be temporarily unavailable for purchase on the Psystar online store, those who purchase a t-shirt or donate over twenty dollars will receive one free copy of Rebel EFI once the court has ruled in our favor on this issue.

We respectfully disagree with courts notion that we are "hardcore copyright infringers". Psystar has never, and will never, condone software piracy. It's your software, you should be able to use it where you want to. If you purchase an off-the-shelf copy of OS X Snow Leopard, its your right to use that software. A publisher cannot forbid you from reading a book in the bathroom or listening to a music disc while riding your bicycle. There should be no difference in the software realm, no matter how much money Apple or anyone else throws at it. That is the real issue here and what we have always been fighting for.

Psystar will continue to support all of its existing customers of hardware and software through this transitional period. Warranties on hardware will continue to be honored as long the customer has a valid warranty. Rebel EFI support for existing customers, as always, will remain exclusively available through email and the built-in ticket interface.

Earlier this month, Psystar discontinued the sale of all its computer systems. In the coming days, we will again be offering complete systems but at discounted prices as they will be bundled with your choice of Linux operating system. In addition to using only first quality components, our hardware specifically chosen such that it is known to be compatible with OS X (via Apples own drivers or open source offerings online). This makes it easier to get up and running with your favorite XNU based operating system, including Pure Darwin.

Also worth mentioning are new flavors of our wildly popular Rebel EFI software product (pending court for release). These include editions tailored to specific off the shelf hardware including the Dell 9 Mini and HP Mini netbooks. In the interim, please keep up to date with Psystar's open source offerings @ https://foundry.psystar.com . Note, those who qualify for a free copy of Rebel EFI will be able to choose one of these new offerings.

Any and all information regarding Rebel EFI, future software products and all other things Psystar should be directed to press@psystar.com or legal@psystar.com.

[cmaier]

Yeah, there's something wrong with these guys.

[pdjudd]

A publisher cannot forbid you from reading a book in the bathroom or listening to a music disc while riding your bicycle. There should be no difference in the software realm, no matter how much money Apple or anyone else throws at it. That is the real issue here and what we have always been fighting for.

No, but nobody seriously makes those terms with physical items like books or Audio CD’s - but neither of these items are the same as software which can only be used after copying content from one medium to another - Listening to a CD or reading a book is static - you do not copy the material - You are copying and making a derivative - the courts declared that. You may think that you are not pirates, but you have infringed on copyrights by - COPYING! Something that publishers and musicians don’t want you doing either!

Yeah, there's something wrong with these guys.

Yea, they are truing to dance around an injunction that was deliberately stated to be sold at peril.... THe judges are going to be real pleased with that...

[DMann]

http://www.psystar.com/

Psystar Temporarily Halts Sale of Rebel EFI
December 22, 2009

Psystar has voluntarily suspended the sale of our Rebel EFI software product. Psystar feels it would be prudent to halt the sale of Rebel EFI while we explicitly ask the court for clarification on the legality of Rebel EFI. Our patience has been tested but our resolve is unwavering. Psystar's vision of bringing the Mac OS to generic PC hardware is and always will be unyielding. Although Rebel EFI may be temporarily unavailable for purchase on the Psystar online store, those who purchase a t-shirt or donate over twenty dollars will receive one free copy of Rebel EFI once the court has ruled in our favor on this issue.

We respectfully disagree with courts notion that we are "hardcore copyright infringers". Psystar has never, and will never, condone software piracy. It's your software, you should be able to use it where you want to. If you purchase an off-the-shelf copy of OS X Snow Leopard, its your right to use that software. A publisher cannot forbid you from reading a book in the bathroom or listening to a music disc while riding your bicycle. There should be no difference in the software realm, no matter how much money Apple or anyone else throws at it. That is the real issue here and what we have always been fighting for.

Psystar will continue to support all of its existing customers of hardware and software through this transitional period. Warranties on hardware will continue to be honored as long the customer has a valid warranty. Rebel EFI support for existing customers, as always, will remain exclusively available through email and the built-in ticket interface.

Earlier this month, Psystar discontinued the sale of all its computer systems. In the coming days, we will again be offering complete systems but at discounted prices as they will be bundled with your choice of Linux operating system. In addition to using only first quality components, our hardware specifically chosen such that it is known to be compatible with OS X (via Apples own drivers or open source offerings online). This makes it easier to get up and running with your favorite XNU based operating system, including Pure Darwin.

Also worth mentioning are new flavors of our wildly popular Rebel EFI software product (pending court for release). These include editions tailored to specific off the shelf hardware including the Dell 9 Mini and HP Mini netbooks. In the interim, please keep up to date with Psystar's open source offerings @ https://foundry.psystar.com . Note, those who qualify for a free copy of Rebel EFI will be able to choose one of these new offerings.

Any and all information regarding Rebel EFI, future software products and all other things Psystar should be directed to press@psystar.com or legal@psystar.com.

Their resolve is unwavering, that much is for sure.