Sports Legend Gareth Thomas Comes Out

[leekohler]

Gareth Thomas, a British sports legend and international rugby star, has announced that he is gay. The 35-year-old, who retired from internationals after the 2007 World Cup, but still plays for Welsh provincial side Cardiff Blues, also says he doesn’t want to be known as “a gay rugby player.”

"I don't want to be known as a gay rugby player,” Thomas says in an interview with British newspaper The Daily Mail. “I am a rugby player first and foremost. I am a man. I just happen to be gay. It's irrelevant. What I choose to do when I close the door at home has nothing to do with what I have achieved in rugby."

Thomas married his childhood sweetheart, Jemma, in 2002, but the two were separated in 2006, and their divorce is being finalized.

"I've been through all sorts of emotions with this, tears, anger and absolute despair," Thomas adds. "I wasn't sure if I ever wanted to let people know and, to be honest, I feel anxious about people's reactions and the effect it might have on my family."

He also admits that it had been "really tough" hiding his sexuality, but he hopes coming out would help future generations of rugby players.

Thomas says that his close family and friends have accepted his decision and will continue to support him, but that he has no plans to launch a "crusade" but wants to send a "positive message" to other gay people.

http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2009/12/19/Sports_Legend_Gareth_Thomas_Comes_Out/

Wow- so it's still this difficult for people in sports to come out in the UK? Too bad, but good for him.

[Queso]

Depends on the sport really. It's pretty much accepted that lots of rugby players are gay, although this is the first professional player that's officially come out. I just wish he hadn't done the token-wife thing whilst he worked his head out. It's the only thing in the story that takes the shine off.

[leekohler]

Depends on the sport really. It's pretty much accepted that lots of rugby players are gay, although this is the first professional player that's officially come out. I just wish he hadn't done the token-wife thing whilst he worked his head out. It's the only thing in the story that takes the shine off.

A lot of people will do anything to keep their careers. It's sad that the token wife thing had to be one of them.

I didn't realize that people thought a lot of rugby players are gay. I guess that should debunk the "sissy" stereotype.

We have a gay rugby team here in Chicago that plays in a straight league. The other teams love and fear those guys.

[Jaffa Cake]

Wow- so it's still this difficult for people in sports to come out in the UK?Unfortunately so – there have been a couple over the years, but they're few and far between.

The key figure who I suppose many will think of is Justin Fashanu, who was Britain's first £1million black footballer and also the first – and so far as I'm aware still the only – professional footballer to come out in this country.

It's fair to say that this revelation was severely detrimental to his career, and ultimately he took his own life, this was back in the late nineties. As well as the pressures placed upon him due to his private life being under such public scrutiny, he'd also been accused of sexually assaulting a teenage boy (in the States, if memory serves), a charge that by the time of his death had been dropped due to lack of evidence. None the less, it took its toll on him.

There are some that will tell you that folk like Fashanu and Thomas are the exceptions to the rule – that professionals in sports like football (be it Association or American code) and rugby aren't gay, because they're proper men and all that. Frankly, they're deluded to think along those lines.

There may be precious few who are open about their sexuality, at least publicly, but that doesn't mean that they don't exist. Personally, I couldn't give two hoots who a given player sleeps with, it's his performance on the pitch and not in the bedroom that concerns me. Hopefully Thomas' example will encourage other to come forward.

[leekohler]

Unfortunately so – there have been a couple over the years, but they're few and far between.

The key figure who I suppose many will think of is Justin Fashanu, who was Britain's first £1million black footballer and also the first – and so far as I'm aware still the only – professional footballer to come out in this country.

It's fair to say that this revelation was severely detrimental to his career, and ultimately he took his own life, this was back in the late nineties. As well as the pressures placed upon him due to his private life being under such public scrutiny, he'd also been accused of sexually assaulting a teenage boy (in the States, if memory serves), a charge that by the time of his death had been dropped due to lack of evidence. None the less, it took its toll on him.

There are some that will tell you that folk like Fashanu and Thomas are the exceptions to the rule – that professionals in sports like football (be it Association or American code) and rugby aren't gay, because they're proper men and all that. Frankly, they're deluded to think along those lines.

There may be precious few who are open about their sexuality, at least publicly, but that doesn't mean that they don't exist. Personally, I couldn't give two hoots who a given player sleeps with, it's his performance on the pitch and not in the bedroom that concerns me. Hopefully Thomas' example will encourage other to come forward.

We've had more than a few come out here in the States, but usually after they retire. It's too bad they feel they have to wait til then.

[Jaffa Cake]

We've had more than a few come out here in the States, but usually after they retire. It's too bad they feel they have to wait til then.I suppose that concerns such as how team mates and coaches will react come into play, as well as fans and sponsors. As I say, with some more high profile examples perhaps these fears might be allayed somewhat.

[leekohler]

I suppose that concerns such as how team mates and coaches will react come into play, as well as fans and sponsors. As I say, with some more high profile examples perhaps these fears might be allayed somewhat.

I suppose. But it's still wrong.

[Jaffa Cake]

I suppose. But it's still wrong.Indeed, I certainly don't disagree with you on that.

[Eraserhead]

As a non-sporty person I'm surprised that he's the first rugby player to come out. Good for him, but bad that noone's done it before :(.

There are some that will tell you that folk like Fashanu and Thomas are the exceptions to the rule – that professionals in sports like football (be it Association or American code) and rugby aren't gay, because they're proper men and all that. Frankly, they're deluded to think along those lines.

They remind me of Ahmadinejad saying there are no gays in Iran (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_3RUwAJ_MI).

It's fair to say that this revelation was severely detrimental to his career, and ultimately he took his own life, this was back in the late nineties.

I think its fair to say gay rights have improved significantly over the past 10 years here in the UK.

[leekohler]

As a non-sporty person I'm surprised that he's the first rugby player to come out. Good for him, but bad that noone's done it before :(.

Well look at the guy. Are you gonna mess with him? I'm surprised he just doesn't walk around saying, "I'm a homo, you got a problem with that?"

He's one big, scary man.

[harperjones99]

It's funny to me how gay people identify themselves so much based on their sexuality. Straight people don't go around telling people they are straight or needing to get some sort of validation. Lee posts often about his 'gayness' yet I don't see other posting about their sexuality. Seems he has a need to display this and force people to give a crap.

Most people could care less who you love or sleep with...it is when you can't shut up about it that it becomes annoying. Kind of like seeing people making out in a waiting room or something, it's irritating no matter straight, gay, etc. That's because some things like sexuality are preferred by most to be private matters not the main topic of discussion daily.

It's not an issue until people make it one by harping on and on about it. I am sure most people would say "so what?" if they heard someone they know is gay. Gay people often seem to want some gold star for telling everyone. Stop identifying yourselves by your sexuality and everyone else will too.

[Rt&Dzine]

It's funny to me how gay people identify themselves so much based on their sexuality. Straight people don't go around telling people they are straight or needing to get some sort of validation. Lee posts often about his 'gayness' yet I don't see other posting about their sexuality. Seems he has a need to display this and force people to give a crap.

Most people could care less who you love or sleep with...it is when you can't shut up about it that it becomes annoying. Kind of like seeing people making out in a waiting room or something, it's irritating no matter straight, gay, etc. That's because some things like sexuality are preferred by most to be private matters not the main topic of discussion daily.

It's not an issue until people make it one by harping on and on about it. I am sure most people would say "so what?" if they heard someone they know is gay. Gay people often seem to want some gold star for telling everyone. Stop identifying yourselves by your sexuality and everyone else will too.

Yeah, gays should just keep their mouths shut and let society dictate how they should live their lives. :rolleyes:

[leekohler]

It's funny to me how gay people identify themselves so much based on their sexuality. Straight people don't go around telling people they are straight or needing to get some sort of validation. Lee posts often about his 'gayness' yet I don't see other posting about their sexuality. Seems he has a need to display this and force people to give a crap.

Most people could care less who you love or sleep with...it is when you can't shut up about it that it becomes annoying. Kind of like seeing people making out in a waiting room or something, it's irritating no matter straight, gay, etc. That's because some things like sexuality are preferred by most to be private matters not the main topic of discussion daily.

It's not an issue until people make it one by harping on and on about it. I am sure most people would say "so what?" if they heard someone they know is gay. Gay people often seem to want some gold star for telling everyone. Stop identifying yourselves by your sexuality and everyone else will too.

And I'm going to stop you right there. Straight people never announce their sexuality to the world? Are you ********** kidding me?!! :eek::mad: It's a constant barrage, dude! Do you not watch TV, read the paper, notice advertising, receive wedding invites, see straight couples holding hands in the street, notice your coworkers family photos at the office, etc? Heterosexuality is announced EVERYWHERE and OFTEN. When's the last time you saw gay couples holding hands in the street on a regular basis? Huh?

Do you not also notice the threads all over this forum such as "post your celebrity crush", etc?

Difference is- you don't get denied certain rights and privileges because of it. You don't have anything you need to fight for. The other difference is that it makes you uncomfortable for whatever reason, you just admitted that. You don't care if people are gay, you just don't want to know about it. Why? Because it's different and not the norm.

WTF is that all about? I'll tell you- it's your problem, not ours. Deal with it.

[Badandy]

It's funny to me how gay people identify themselves so much based on their sexuality. Straight people don't go around telling people they are straight or needing to get some sort of validation.

That's definitely not true. When I'm with my friends and we see a really gorgeous girl walk by we let each other know. Straight people (and I'm one) constantly validate themselves. You just can't see the difference.

Straight Situation:

Hot girl walks by
Guy: She's hot
You: Definitely.

Gay Situation

Hot guy walks by
Guy: He's hot
You: ugghh, keep that to yourself, stop announcing it to the world

Seriously, you see a couple holding hands in public and it's normal. You see a gay couple holding hands and you react negatively to it and think they're trying to force their beliefs on the rest of the world.


Most people could care less who you love or sleep with...it is when you can't shut up about it that it becomes annoying.

You know what's annoying? Knowing that people do discriminate against gay people based on who they love or sleep with. There goes you theory about "most people could care less" (when you meant to say "couldn't anyway). If people truly didn't care they'd let them marry and wouldn't beat them up and yell obscenities at them in many parts of the country.

[leekohler]

That's definitely not true. When I'm with my friends and we see a really gorgeous girl walk by we let each other know. Straight people (and I'm one) constantly validate themselves. You just can't see the difference.

Straight Situation:

Hot girl walks by
Guy: She's hot
You: Definitely.

Gay Situation

Hot guy walks by
Guy: He's hot
You: ugghh, keep that to yourself, stop announcing it to the world

Seriously, you see a couple holding hands in public and it's normal. You see a gay couple holding hands and you react negatively to it and think they're trying to force their beliefs on the rest of the world.




You know what's annoying? Knowing that people do discriminate against gay people based on who they love or sleep with. There goes you theory about "most people could care less" (when you meant to say "couldn't anyway). If people truly didn't care they'd let them marry and wouldn't beat them up and yell obscenities at them in many parts of the country.

Everybody loves Badandy. :)

[Queso]

WTF is that all about? I'll tell you- it's your problem, not ours. Deal with it.
+1. Seriously. Anyone that says straights don't announce their sexuality isn't paying attention. It happens constantly, every day.

[mscriv]

It's funny to me how gay people identify themselves so much based on their sexuality. Straight people don't go around telling people they are straight or needing to get some sort of validation. Lee posts often about his 'gayness' yet I don't see other posting about their sexuality. Seems he has a need to display this and force people to give a crap.

Most people could care less who you love or sleep with...it is when you can't shut up about it that it becomes annoying. Kind of like seeing people making out in a waiting room or something, it's irritating no matter straight, gay, etc. That's because some things like sexuality are preferred by most to be private matters not the main topic of discussion daily.

It's not an issue until people make it one by harping on and on about it. I am sure most people would say "so what?" if they heard someone they know is gay. Gay people often seem to want some gold star for telling everyone. Stop identifying yourselves by your sexuality and everyone else will too.

Let's tap the breaks there Harper. I understand your point and have even asked similar questions myself in other threads. However, it is really not cool to attack another forum member no matter how much you disagree or do not understand their perspective.

Lee and I have differing views on a variety of issues, but by engaging in open minded and respectful discussions we have developed a friendship. When you talk with your fellow forum members with the goal of seeking to better understand who they are and why they feel the way they do then you come away from the debate having built a relationship, not having built a wall between yourself and someone else.

Think about it.

[harperjones99]

Think about it.

I have no interest in discussing anything with him because I have seen how he reacts to anyone who doesn't "praise the gayness". His post above to me illustrates this well. "Deal with it" etc....:rolleyes: People like that are not interested in getting to know you but rather forcing their view on you. They act like everyone who doesn't agree with them is a homophobe (and term that doesn't even fit as not liking/agreeing with something and being scared of it are two different things)

And to the person who busted me saying "could care less" when I clearly meant "couldn't care less"....you do know that is like nagging someone about a typo right? Annoying and makes you look like a pedantic weenie.

And I'm going to stop you right there.

WTF is that all about? I'll tell you- it's your problem, not ours. Deal with it.

You aren't going to stop anything Darth. And it seems it is far more of a problem for you. In fact it's a minor annoyance to me at best but most of the time unless it's thrown in my face I don't give two craps about people's sexual orientation.

[Rt&Dzine]

I have no interest in discussing anything with him because I have seen how he reacts to anyone who doesn't "praise the gayness". His post above to me illustrates this well. "Deal with it" etc....:rolleyes: People like that are not interested in getting to know you but rather forcing their view on you.


So you're just making personal attacks against Lee and you have no interest in his response.

[Badandy]

And to the person who busted me saying "could care less" when I clearly meant "couldn't care less"....you do know that is like nagging someone about a typo right? Annoying and makes you look like a pedantic weenie.

It's a pet peeve of mine, and something that might be worth correcting on your part considering it is wrong. In any case, I only devoted a single clause to it so it wasn't that important to me. But moving on, would you mind addressing the rest of my post?

And leekohler is correct, it seems you do have a problem despite your strong objections; it's pretty apparent by reading your initial post in this thread. The gay people I know don't shove their gayness in everyone's face, the problem is with the people who aren't comfortable with it who think it's being shoved in their face.

[Gelfin]

(and term that doesn't even fit as not liking/agreeing with something and being scared of it are two different things)

No, psychologically a phobia is an irrational aversion, which can take the form of a fear response but is not required to. "Homophobia" just means you have a problem with gay people, which you very much seem to.

It's funny to me how gay people identify themselves so much based on their sexuality. Straight people don't go around telling people they are straight or needing to get some sort of validation.

Several posters have already pointed out that lots of straight people emphasize their sexuality. It's an almost stereotypically male thing to do, to loudly and obnoxiously proclaim one's intense need to insert one's penis in this or that passing woman to one's friends. If he doesn't? They think he's gay. It is practically required for young men to define themselves by their heterosexuality.

This is certainly not to suggest that many young men do not participate enthusiastically, but let a gay guy do likewise, and all of a sudden it's all about your face and, in a metaphor so Freudian and ubiquitous I can't help laughing, what you imagine is being shoved into it.

There are those, however, both gay and straight, who find that doesn't suit them. The last thing they want is for the first thing people think of when their names come up to be how they obtain their orgasms. The difference between them, however, is that the straight man can casually mention "my wife" or "my girlfriend" without that happening. The gay man has only the choices to be "in the closet" or "in your face," because if he casually mentions "my husband" or "my boyfriend," it's all over. To many people Gareth Thomas will never again be an accomplished athlete; he will be that gay guy who plays rugby.

He doesn't define himself entirely by his sexuality. You do.

[mscriv]

I have no interest in discussing anything with him because I have seen how he reacts to anyone who doesn't "praise the gayness". His post above to me illustrates this well. "Deal with it" etc....:rolleyes: People like that are not interested in getting to know you but rather forcing their view on you. They act like everyone who doesn't agree with them is a homophobe (and term that doesn't even fit as not liking/agreeing with something and being scared of it are two different things)

C'mon Harper, seriously. The overwhelming majority of sexuality discussions here on MR happen in the PRSI which is a forum set up for such things. Although I won't say it hasn't ever happened, I can't recall ever seeing any member, homosexual or heterosexual bring up sexuality randomly in a thread about something else. They may make an analogy, but they don't proclaim their sexuality in an attempt to "praise their orientation". Honestly, have you seen this:

Title: Which Mac Laptop to Buy. Please Help.

MAC NEWBIE: Hi all, I'm buying my first mac and found this forum by doing some online research. Which laptop do you think would be best for a college student studying graphic design? Do I really need to go all out and get a MBP? Any advice would help.

MR MEMBER: Hi Mac Newbie, welcome to MacRumors. If your going into graphics work then you might want to consider getting a 15" or 17" MBPro just to have the bigger screen and the more powerful graphics card. By the way, I'm a (insert sexual orientation of preference here) and I really enjoy having sex with (insert gender of sexual desire here). If you're not of the same persuasion as me then you might want to give it a try. Thanks again for joining MacRumors and I hope to see you around the forums. Feel free to ask any other questions you might have whether it be about your mac purchase or my sexuality. :)

Let's at least be real as opposed to using the broad generalizations you are stating as fact. Is there a lot of sexuality discussion on these forums, YES. Does it take place in the general forums as people try to proselytize others, NO. Regardless of your views on this issue, is it okay to personally attack/slander other forum members, NO. If you don't like certain members or certain subject matters than avoid them. Remember, you control that to which you are exposed.

I apologize to any who may now be cleaning their screens due to the resulting projectile spittle that occurred while laughing during the reading of my sarcasm which was intended to show how ridiculous Harper's argument is.

[thegoldenmackid]

It's funny to me how gay people identify themselves so much based on their sexuality. Straight people don't go around telling people they are straight or needing to get some sort of validation.

While my screen is still clean, I definitely shook my head. How many straight people live any portion of their lives being in the closet? Unless you are referring to heterosexuals that live in a physical closet, I'm not thinking many. As mscriv alluded to - it's painful to see not only the hate, but the ridiculousness that some people feel.

Athletes coming out of the closet, especially in a sport like rugby, is a big deal. It will stop becoming a big deal when society grows up and learns to accept people for who they are, a world that I imagine you (harperjones99) would not like. People will stop caring about our first black president, our first female candidate and our first homosexual rugby star when they accept differences and those barriers have been shattered numerous times. Until that world comes to fruition - it's going to be news and it should be discussed so that people can accept differences. People can still disagree with the decision and accept it: look to mscriv if you need an example.

[jessica.]

... a world that I imagine you (harperjones99) would not like. People will stop caring about our first black president, our first female candidate and our first homosexual rugby star when they accept differences and those barriers have been shattered numerous times.

In a world I imagine none of the above would be seen as different and would not need to be seen as barriers. In other words, we'll stop hearing about the first, black, woman, homosexual, fat, tall, short, etc. and we'll get on with more important things. That will likely never happen so keep thinking, dressing, acting like everyone else as that is what people thrive on.

Until that world comes to fruition - it's going to be news and it should be discussed so that people can accept differences. People can still disagree with the decision and accept it: look to mscriv if you need an example.

This is never, and will never be, discussed so people can accept differences, it is discussed so people can debate and hopefully get their point across and hopefully win.

The reaction to these things is sad.

[leekohler]

I have no interest in discussing anything with him because I have seen how he reacts to anyone who doesn't "praise the gayness". His post above to me illustrates this well. "Deal with it" etc....:rolleyes: People like that are not interested in getting to know you but rather forcing their view on you. They act like everyone who doesn't agree with them is a homophobe (and term that doesn't even fit as not liking/agreeing with something and being scared of it are two different things)

I don't give a s*** what you think of me. I don't have the power to change your mind and I don't care to try. You don't care to try either. And we aren't going away, so you do have to deal with it.

What I do care about is making sure people like you don't pass laws against people like us. And the only way to do that is to come out and let people see we aren't the boogeymen the right tries to make us.

And do you disagree with people being black, blue-eyed or asian? No? Then how the hell do you disagree with people being gay?

And to the person who busted me saying "could care less" when I clearly meant "couldn't care less"....you do know that is like nagging someone about a typo right? Annoying and makes you look like a pedantic weenie.

Look who has to resort to name-calling.

You aren't going to stop anything Darth. And it seems it is far more of a problem for you. In fact it's a minor annoyance to me at best but most of the time unless it's thrown in my face I don't give two craps about people's sexual orientation.

Oh, hell yes I am. I'm gonna stop people like you from trying to shut us up and shove us back in the closet. You don't like us talking? Tough s***.

And how exactly is this thread throwing anything in your face? You didn't have to come in here and read it, did you? You made the choice to do that. If people simply discussing a subject is "throwing it in your face", then it is not us with a problem. Go back and read Badandy's post- that illustrates you perfectly.

No, psychologically a phobia is an irrational aversion, which can take the form of a fear response but is not required to. "Homophobia" just means you have a problem with gay people, which you very much seem to.



Several posters have already pointed out that lots of straight people emphasize their sexuality. It's an almost stereotypically male thing to do, to loudly and obnoxiously proclaim one's intense need to insert one's penis in this or that passing woman to one's friends. If he doesn't? They think he's gay. It is practically required for young men to define themselves by their heterosexuality.

This is certainly not to suggest that many young men do not participate enthusiastically, but let a gay guy do likewise, and all of a sudden it's all about your face and, in a metaphor so Freudian and ubiquitous I can't help laughing, what you imagine is being shoved into it.

There are those, however, both gay and straight, who find that doesn't suit them. The last thing they want is for the first thing people think of when their names come up to be how they obtain their orgasms. The difference between them, however, is that the straight man can casually mention "my wife" or "my girlfriend" without that happening. The gay man has only the choices to be "in the closet" or "in your face," because if he casually mentions "my husband" or "my boyfriend," it's all over. To many people Gareth Thomas will never again be an accomplished athlete; he will be that gay guy who plays rugby.

He doesn't define himself entirely by his sexuality. You do.

Read this again, harper. It's the truth.

[harperjones99]

Go on with your bad self girlfriend.

You sexual orientation isn't what bugs me about you...it is your aggressive nature about it. You aren't going to stop me from doing anything pal...which really isn't related to my views because I am not trying to put anyone in any closet. You don't matter to me...had you not made such a big deal about your sexual orientation here I would have never noticed you. You brought it up...then complain when people have issues with your views.

I don't want to hear about anyone's sexual proclivities gay or not so get off of this poor victim stance. Gay people are not the most important issue in the world and most people don't care that much either way. Like I said about everyone I know would say "Meh, so?" if someone said "Hey Joe is gay...he just came out!!!".

It is the constant harping that makes people irritated when it comes to any "group" moaning on and on like this. If you want to be treated like everyone else act like everyone else and don't make your sexual orientation a defining issue about you...and you DO because you bring it up constantly. Most people don't care and only get irritated when you won't shut up about it.

[abijnk]

Harper, sexuality is EVERYWHERE in our society. Its in the way that that woman in the commercial puts that piece of chocolate in her mouth, int the way that man looks at that woman when she passes, it is ingrained in the design of our clothing. That you think homosexuals are throwing their sexuality in your face says a lot about how desensitized you have become to displays of heterosexual sensuality. That is why homosexuality seems so in your face, because it is different from what you see everyday.

The second part of that comes from how society currently treats gays. While you insist that you and your posse wouldn't be bothered with someone coming out the fact remains that the rest of society is not necessarily like you.

Thirdly, the title of this forum is Politics, Religion and Social Issues. News Flash: Homosexuality is a major MAJOR social issue in the United States right now. NOT talking about it would be to ignore a large movement happening across the country.

Finally, it seems your issue is more with the fact that certain members of the forum hold a more outspoken opinion than you. So what? That's what this place is for, voicing your opinion and presenting topics relevant to the major issues of the time. If you don't like it then don't come here. We aren't forcing you to participate in the thread.


Moving on... The fact that coming out has to be so complicated for anyone is a tragedy. That it could cost you a career is downright disgusting. Kudos to Gareth for finally being honest in the public eye, and I wish him the best.

[Badandy]

Go on with your bad self girlfriend.

Nice.

You sexual orientation isn't what bugs me about you...

It clearly is.

You don't matter to me...had you not made such a big deal about your sexual orientation here I would have never noticed you.

Abiyng said it how it is: it's a forum expressly for social issues. Want to point out a post where our gay forum members recommend an Airport Extreme over an Airport Express with the reason being it's more gay friendly?

You brought it up...then complain when people have issues with your views.

I'm not lee, but I'm going to guess he has a problem with you calling his right to equal treatment and individual rights his "views". I'm 5'9", is it just my "view" that I shouldn't be denied constitutional rights based on that fact? Am I going to just "respect other opinions because it's different than mine" who think that I shouldn't be afforded those rights based on my height? Hell no, and I'd defend that as strongly as the gay movement is doing now.

How about this: If you truly don't have any problem with gay people like you say, your next response, assuming you aren't banned for your nice little slur at the beginning of your post, should tell us that you have no problem with allowing gay couples to marry. We're waiting.


Most people don't care and only get irritated when you won't shut up about it.

Who else here is irritated with lee's sexuality in a thread devoted to people coming out in a forum about social issues? It seems it's just you.

[leekohler]

Go on with your bad self girlfriend.

You sexual orientation isn't what bugs me about you...it is your aggressive nature about it. You aren't going to stop me from doing anything pal...which really isn't related to my views because I am not trying to put anyone in any closet. You don't matter to me...had you not made such a big deal about your sexual orientation here I would have never noticed you. You brought it up...then complain when people have issues with your views.

I don't want to hear about anyone's sexual proclivities gay or not so get off of this poor victim stance. Gay people are not the most important issue in the world and most people don't care that much either way. Like I said about everyone I know would say "Meh, so?" if someone said "Hey Joe is gay...he just came out!!!".

It is the constant harping that makes people irritated when it comes to any "group" moaning on and on like this. If you want to be treated like everyone else act like everyone else and don't make your sexual orientation a defining issue about you...and you DO because you bring it up constantly. Most people don't care and only get irritated when you won't shut up about it.

If you're so irritated about people discussing certain topics, THEN WHY DO YOU GET INVOLVED? Ignore it! No one is shoving anything in your face or forcing you to read anything. YOU are coming in here and reading this thread.

Did I force you to click the link? No? Well then how the hell am I pushing anything on you?

I bring it up constantly because it's extremely important to me. People use it to discriminate and pass laws against people like me. YOU'RE DAMN RIGHT I"M AGGRESSIVE ABOUT THAT! YOU WOULD BE TOO!

I've also noticed that you've ignored every other point made in this thread explaining why we talk about it, and why it's important. Ignorance is bliss, it seems.

[LethalWolfe]

You brought it up...then complain when people have issues with your views.
Wouldn't you complain too if you were being treated different under the law than everyone else? God, 50 years ago I bet you would've been complaining about MLK and all those 'uppity' colored people.:rolleyes:

If you want to be treated like everyone else act like everyone else and don't make your sexual orientation a defining issue about you...and you DO because you bring it up constantly. Most people don't care and only get irritated when you won't shut up about it.
OMG, are you really this dense? Are you really saying that if gay people don't want to be discriminated against they should pretend to be hetero? Gays do want to be treated like everyone else but they aren't which is why they are speaking up. They just want to able to get married like everyone else. They just want to adopt kids like everyone else. They just want to live their lives like everyone else. But they can't because people who hate them do everything from bar them from getting married to killing them.


Lethal

[Eraserhead]

OMG, are you really this dense? Are you really saying that if gay people don't want to be discriminated against they should pretend to be hetero?

Then they are back in the closet which is a really bad thing :(.

Gays do want to be treated like everyone else but they aren't which is why they are speaking up. They just want to able to get married like everyone else. They just want to adopt kids like everyone else. They just want to live their lives like everyone else.

+1

[harperjones99]

I've also noticed that you've ignored every other point made in this thread explaining why we talk about it, and why it's important.

Because I can't be bothered wasting my time arguing with every multi quoted post. It is just not important enough to spend the time on it.

LethalWolfe's moronic statement above epitomizes why I don't bother. He claims I said something I did not. I never said gays should pretend to be hetero but thats what he twisted it into. You can't fight that kind of nonsense.

[Badandy]

Because I can't be bothered wasting my time arguing with every multi quoted post. It is just not important enough to spend the time on it.

LethalWolfe's moronic statement above epitomizes why I don't bother. He claims I said something I did not. I never said gays should pretend to be hetero but thats what he twisted it into. You can't fight that kind of nonsense.

Deny and deflect, rather than defend. Bravo.


Not important enough to spend the time on it

Do you understand how insulting that one sentence is? You're embarrassing yourself on this forum, and while you'll surely respond with something to the effect of "I don't care what you guys think, blah, blah, blah" it's still true.

[Queso]

harperjones99 = troll :rolleyes:

</thread>

[leekohler]

Because I can't be bothered wasting my time arguing with every multi quoted post. It is just not important enough to spend the time on it.

LethalWolfe's moronic statement above epitomizes why I don't bother. He claims I said something I did not. I never said gays should pretend to be hetero but thats what he twisted it into. You can't fight that kind of nonsense.

You said gays should "act like everyone else". If that were the case, then you'd be seeing a hell of a lot more guys kissing and holding hands on the street, lots of same sex couples in advertising, etc. So if that's not what you meant, what did you mean?

If you can't be bothered to respond to things that we have explained clearly to you, and refuse to argue substantively, then please leave. We have taken the time to post and explain ourselves clearly, so should you.

[LethalWolfe]

Because I can't be bothered wasting my time arguing with every multi quoted post. It is just not important enough to spend the time on it.
Yet you still find time to come in here and b*tch about how you don't have time to come in here. How sweet of you.


Lethal

[Forsaken]

And I'm going to stop you right there. Straight people never announce their sexuality to the world? Are you ********** kidding me?!!....
That's definitely not true. When I'm with my friends and we see a really gorgeous girl walk by we let each other know. Straight people (and I'm one)...
+2

Excellent points.

(note that I haven't been trained in the art of writing walls of text so I'll just leave this here instead of making a fool of myself)

[Eraserhead]

You said gays should "act like everyone else". If that were the case, then you'd be seeing a hell of a lot more guys kissing and holding hands on the street, lots of same sex couples in advertising, etc. So if that's not what you meant, what did you mean?

I'm just watching Gossip Girl and in between the solely heterosexual relationships in the show itself there are hetrosexual couples taking their clothes off in the commercials. So there is a long way to go for equality for gays and they aren't "over-exposed" by any means.

[Forsaken]

Because I can't be bothered wasting my time arguing with every multi quoted post. It is just not important enough to spend the time on it.

LethalWolfe's moronic statement above epitomizes why I don't bother. He claims I said something I did not. I never said gays should pretend to be hetero but thats what he twisted it into. You can't fight that kind of nonsense.
The only reason you're not bothering to actually argue is because you have no way to back up what you think. You're just pulling crap from the air and going "but it's truuuue!"

You have no points.

[leekohler]

I'm just watching Gossip Girl and in between the solely heterosexual relationships in the show itself there are hetrosexual couples taking their clothes off in the commercials. So there is a long way to go for equality for gays and they aren't "over-exposed" by any means.

He means that he doesn't want to see or hear anything "gay" ever. That's painfully clear.

OT- I love Gossip Girl. :)

The only reason you're not bothering to actually argue is because you have no way to back up what you think. You're just pulling crap from the air and going "but it's truuuue!"

You have no points.

Sure he does. He keeps making it over and over. He doesn't care if anyone is gay as long as he never has to know about it and no one talks about it. That's his point.

[Eraserhead]

OT- I love Gossip Girl. :)

so you don't get grossed out by all the straight sex :confused:.

[leekohler]

so you don't get grossed out by all the straight sex :confused:.

Of course not! :) Dan? Are you kidding? Who cares if there's a girl there too. :D

[dukebound85]

good for him. only live once so best live how you want

[leekohler]

good for him. only live once so best live how you want

Ah dukey- you and Badandy make me so happy and restore my faith that there still are actual conservatives in the world. :)

[harperjones99]

I said if people want to be treated normally act normal...meaning don't bring up your sexuality at every turn. It's only a big deal if you make it one. Saying I meant act "straight" is the kind of drama and nonsense I am referring to. You WANT to fight about it. I have said repeatedly most people do not want to know about others' preferences. Gender, religion, race whatever...it only becomes an issue for most when people harp on about it. Most people just want others mind their own business, do your job, contribute etc. We don't need to have all the drama.

The troll label makes me laugh..classic internet nonsense when you don't agree with someone...call them a TROLL!!!! The actual meaning has totally been lost just like the words "homophobia" or "anti-semitic" for example. They are used incorrectly all the time by people trying to sound inflammatory.

Lee don't you see your hypocrisy? You think your opinion matters and needs to be read...but since you don't like mine you ask me to leave. No thanks.

[leekohler]

I said if people want to be treated normally act normal...meaning don't bring up your sexuality at every turn. It's only a big deal if you make it one. Saying I meant act "straight" is the kind of drama and nonsense I am referring to. You WANT to fight about it. I have said repeatedly most people do not want to know about others' preferences. Gender, religion, race whatever...it only becomes an issue for most when people harp on about it. Most people just want others mind their own business, do your job, contribute etc. We don't need to have all the drama.

The only person harping here is you. You repeatedly say you don't have time to address the topic, but you still keep coming back. Why, if it's such a waste of time for you?

And you still haven't explained what "normal" is.

And I certainly don't bring up my sexuality at every turn. Just in here, where we discuss political and social issues. This is precisely the place to discuss such things.

I
Lee don't you see your hypocrisy? You think your opinion matters and needs to be read...but since you don't like mine you ask me to leave. No thanks.

Not at all. You say you don't have time to talk about the subject and that it's not important to you. If that's true, why do you keep talking about it?

I never said my opinion has to be read. If you don't like it, don't read it. But don't come in here and tell me I forced it on you. That's a damn lie.

[harperjones99]

And you still haven't explained what "normal" is.

Ugh yes I did...this is what I mean...it goes on and on and people say you said or didnt say something :rolleyes:

And you aren't discussing...you are telling me why I am wrong. It's an irony that makes me chuckle, your intolerance is greater than those you get so mad about.

[leekohler]

Ugh yes I did...this is what I mean...it goes on and on and people say you said or didnt say something :rolleyes:

And you aren't discussing...you are telling me why I am wrong. It's an irony that makes me chuckle, your intolerance is greater than those you get so mad about.

No you haven't. Straight people announce their sexuality constantly, all the time. We've given you plenty of examples of how, but you insist that we "throw it in your face" if we talk about ours.

So one more time- are you saying more gay couples should hold hands walking down the street and that we should have more gay couples on TV, etc? That's "normal" for straight people, so why not us?

And excuse me but, this thread was quite peaceful til you came in here on the attack.

[LethalWolfe]

I said if people want to be treated normally act normal...meaning don't bring up your sexuality at every turn. It's only a big deal if you make it one. Saying I meant act "straight" is the kind of drama and nonsense I am referring to. You WANT to fight about it. I have said repeatedly most people do not want to know about others' preferences. Gender, religion, race whatever...it only becomes an issue for most when people harp on about it. Most people just want others mind their own business, do your job, contribute etc. We don't need to have all the drama.
Now this is just getting comical.

So, the reason gay people can't get married or adopt or openly serve in the military and, in some instances, get attacked for merely being gay is what now? Is it because they don't keep their gay relationships tucked away in the closet in the same way that hetero people keep their hetero relationships tucked away in the closet?


Lethal

[Forsaken]

Sure he does. He keeps making it over and over. He doesn't care if anyone is gay as long as he never has to know about it and no one talks about it. That's his point.
I was trying to dramatize it.

and I failed, badly.

[leekohler]

I was trying to dramatize it.

and I failed, badly.

Oh I know. I was just clarifying. :)

[abijnk]

The only hypocrisy I see in this thread is coming from harperjones99. You want gay people to de-emphasize their sexuality and act normal, but you don't seem to care that gay people don't have access to normal. A normal straight relationship goes something like this: date (in public without persocution or risk of losing family and friends), get married (religiously and legally). Can homosexuals follow this same patterned, decidedly normal, relationship? NO! And that's the point!!!!!! You have completely overlooked the fact that gay people can't act normal, society has prohibited it, society has forced the gay community to have to speak out for itself. You want gays to be normal and fade into the background of social issues? Then fight for their right to be normal!

[harperjones99]

Then fight for their right to be normal!

No thanks. I have much more important things to do than focus on any one "5-10%" group's social issues...and as I have said repeatedly I believe much of this is manufactured drama...most people do not care about your sexuality. Unless someone makes a big scene out of it (gay or straight) or artificially "acts" stereotypical, you wouldn't even know with most people because it's not a focal point for most of us.

I am fully aware that in this forum with its massive liberal slant that people will not agree with me often. I am fine with it. I know that it is not a matter of how most people in life feel but rather a matter of a selective audience with a certain political dogma. So it's all gravy to me ;)

[Eraserhead]

and as I have said repeatedly I believe much of this is manufactured drama...most people do not care about your sexuality.

Except for the fact that people care greatly about sexuality, as you can see by the half naked people used to advertise everything from chocolate to cars to lingerie (which is probably the only thing for which it is "appropriate").

Take these shots from a recent Loreal ad:

208419

208420

208421

And from a recent Lotto ad:

208422

Not exactly sex-free...

[Gelfin]

No thanks. I have much more important things to do than focus on any one "5-10%" group's social issues...and as I have said repeatedly I believe much of this is manufactured drama...most people do not care about your sexuality. Unless someone makes a big scene out of it (gay or straight) or artificially "acts" stereotypical, you wouldn't even know with most people because it's not a focal point for most of us.

Man, if I spent as much time and effort on every issue I don't care about and don't have time for as you do on this issue, I'd never get anything done. Not caring about Tiger Woods alone would have consumed my entire December.

If you don't care, then what's the big deal about a star player of a relatively obscure sport in another country coming out of the closet, and who are you to question those who whom it is a big deal?

I am fully aware that in this forum with its massive liberal slant that people will not agree with me often. I am fine with it. I know that it is not a matter of how most people in life feel but rather a matter of a selective audience with a certain political dogma. So it's all gravy to me ;)

No, most people actually don't care, as opposed to using the words "I don't care" to express a very motivated disapproval. It's always amusing, though, how a certain breed of conservative so needs to be a part of a herd that if necessary he invents one to be a part of.

[harperjones99]

Man, if I spent as much time and effort on every issue I don't care about and don't have time for as you do on this issue, I'd never get anything done.

You must be a very poor organizer of your time then. I figure I have spent all of about 5min on this typing in the last few days. Hardly time consuming.

I can tell you think you are pretty clever and have me pegged so what good would it do to try and discuss it? I am content with just stating my opinion. Every post leaves me needing to counter someone's twisting of my words or meanings and it leads to them doing it again and again and again...like if I told you you totally missed my point by claiming I don't care about the issue when I clearly said I don't care if someone is gay or not as long as it isn't the focal point of our day, I didn't say I don't care about listening to people prattle on about being gay and how oppressed they are as it quite obviously is annoying...then you would complain about something else and likely get it wrong and we would just go round and round.

[djellison]

If you want to be treated like everyone else act like everyone else .

Errr - the law prevents them from doing so. Which is why they have to shout and fight, like any repressed minority, to fight for the same rights that you or eye already enjoy. Join the armed forces? Carefull. Get married? Get stuffed. The reason they have to shout and fight and be heard and be so damn obnoxious to your little world - is because they are not granted the same liberties that you and I are.

If someone started removing your rights you would, quite rightly - start shouting about it.

It's ignorance and ambivalence from people like yourself that are probably doing more to make this an issue than any other group. If all those that you claim don't care just got off their backside for 5 minutes, made it clear that Gay people should be entitled to every single thing that Straight people are - the issues, all of them, would be corrected in a matter of months. You and they could go back to their quiet little lives and not be so pathetically uncivilised as to ask the gays to turn it down a bit whilst they fight for their rights.

[harperjones99]

Errr - the law prevents them from doing so. Which is why they have to shout and fight, like any repressed minority, to fight for the same rights that you or eye already enjoy.

It's ignorance and ambivalence from people like yourself that are probably doing more to make this an issue than any other group.

Yeah clearly I am the cause of all the troubles gay people experience. :rolleyes:

I guess you missed the parts in the past where I have said I am fine with gay marriage and equal rights etc. But apparently I have to be a full on "fag hag" to be "with it".

And before someone tries to the dirty trick of trying to get me censored for the phrase "fag hag" I wasn't using it as an attack on anyone here so shame on you for reporting it as such (and someone will try because they are slimy). For the slow kids the term describes generally a straight person (often used for a girl but fits in context) who hangs out with gay people pretty exclusively.

[Eraserhead]

I guess you missed the parts in the past where I have said I am fine with gay marriage and equal rights etc

They are pretty hard to find, the best example I could find is:

Gay marriage bans do not somehow validate your views...you counter everything with some argument against religion which I have made clear I am not a fan of. If you are saying gay marriage bans and "global warming" drama are both born out of stupidity then we do agree :)

To be fair you are implying you have no problem with gay marriage, but you haven't been particularly explicit ;).

But apparently I have to be a full on "fag hag" to be "with it".

No the issue is that as heterosexual sex is thrust in your face all the time, its not really reasonable for homosexual sex to be treated differently.

[harperjones99]

If all those that you claim don't care just got off their backside for 5 minutes, made it clear that Gay people should be entitled to every single thing that Straight people are - the issues, all of them, would be corrected in a matter of months.

First of all nothing changes that fast in a giant bureaucracy...but since you brought it up what have you done to help with starving children the world over? Do you eat out rather than cooking at home and spending the savings to feed poor people? Do you have a Mac rather than a cheap PC that you are posting on right now? Geez if you weren't so greedy and materialistic that money you spent on the expensive computer could be used to help others. Wow if only people did MORE eh? Or did you mean OTHER people and only apply that to issues YOU find important?

[Eraserhead]

First of all nothing changes that fast in a giant bureaucracy...

Many other developed countries have managed it.

what have you done to help with starving children the world over?

Our governments are already doing a lot to help alleviate these extreme problems, and a lot of money is spent trying to solve them.

[harperjones99]

Many other developed countries have managed it.



Our governments are already doing a lot to help alleviate these extreme problems, and a lot of money is spent trying to solve them.


Sure it can be done but not in a couple months if people like "me" say so. That was the point. And as to your latter comment...so your "government" is doing it...cool. That gets you off the hook then. Enjoy your luxuries. No need to worry the "government" is doing "a lot" :rolleyes:

[djellison]

Wow - what an unpleasant person you are. Way to utterly derail the thread with an entirely unrealted issue deployed as a thinly veiled attack on others. The ignore list grows one stronger.

[harperjones99]

The ignore list grows one stronger.

Noooooooooo! Say it isn't so!!!

I find people who proclaim out loud they are ignoring someone rather than just doing it amusing ;) Like a kid who holds their breath as a protest.

I noticed you claim I attack then attack me. Dang looks like you don't have the moral high ground in your imaginary description of events. Hate it when that happens....

[Eraserhead]

Sure it can be done but not in a couple months if people like "me" say so. That was the point.

Here are a list of rights for the LGBT community according to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_by_country_or_territory).


Homosexual acts legal?
Recognition of same-sex relationships
Same-sex marriage
Same-sex adoption
Allows gays to serve openly in military?
Anti-discrimination (Sexual orientation)
Laws concerning gender identity/expression


So even though the US has made some progress lets go back to the beginning for a second.

The first point just needs the law banning homosexuality to be repealed - easily done.

The second and third point just need some adjustment to the marriage law so that homosexuals can marry too - pretty easily done as well.

The fourth point, just needs some adjustment to the adoption law so that homosexuals can adopt as well - pretty easily done too.

The fifth point is slightly more challenging but probably just involves changing the law/rules of the military so homosexuality isn't grounds for discharge.

Only the final two points are actually more complex as you might have to more carefully define what you are going to do (though actually the US did manage point 6 as an appendage to another bill).

But all in all with public support behind you you should be able to go from zero to 5 within a matter of months.

[leekohler]

Noooooooooo! Say it isn't so!!!

I find people who proclaim out loud they are ignoring someone rather than just doing it amusing ;) Like a kid who holds their breath as a protest.

I noticed you claim I attack then attack me. Dang looks like you don't have the moral high ground in your imaginary description of events. Hate it when that happens....

If you were here to actually discuss the issue, you might not get put on ignore lists. Since you aren't, I fail to see why you keep posting.

[harperjones99]

If you were here to actually discuss the issue, you might not get put on ignore lists. Since you aren't, I fail to see why you keep posting.

A. I do not care in the least about people's ignore lists and find it odd you would think I do. Are people's E-egos that fragile that they are hurt by such ridiculous things? I think it's humorous especially when people "announce it".

B. You don't want to discuss things you want to be agreed with and affirmed.

and lastly...

C. Your understanding of my presence is irrelevant to it occurring.

[Badandy]

A. I do not care in the least about people's ignore lists and find it odd you would think I do. Are people's E-egos that fragile that they are hurt by such ridiculous things? I think it's humorous especially when people "announce it".

B. You don't want to discuss things you want to be agreed with and affirmed.

and lastly...

C. Your understanding of my presence is irrelevant to it occurring.

All your reasons demonstrate a complete misunderstanding of lee's reasoning.

[harperjones99]

All your reasons demonstrate a completely misunderstanding of lee's reasoning.

Nope...but thanks for your opinion.

[djellison]

Quite, Leekholer - when one can improve the signal to noise ratio with a single click - why wouldn't you. It's a very very useful tool.

[Eraserhead]

B. You don't want to discuss things you want to be agreed with and affirmed.

Except for the fact that every claim you've made in this thread has been proved wrong. If you think there are some exceptions please point them out to us again.

[Eraserhead]

It's funny to me how gay people identify themselves so much based on their sexuality. Straight people don't go around telling people they are straight or needing to get some sort of validation.

Just in case this point hasn't been hammered home, what's this about then?

http://www.centralpark.com/pages/activities/wedding.jpg

Quite, Leekholer - when one can improve the signal to noise ratio with a single click - why wouldn't you. It's a very very useful tool.

This'll be my last post in this thread unless we get something interesting to discuss :(.

[Randman]

Good for him, I guess.

Though a sports legend should be known all over.

Say Beckham or Pele or Jordan or Kobe or Ali.

Just nitpicking.

[harperjones99]

Except for the fact that every claim you've made in this thread has been proved wrong. If you think there are some exceptions please point them out to us again.

You have not proven my opinions wrong jack sorry. Where did you get that silly idea? A series of people disagreeing doesnt make me wrong. Just means we think differently.

[Badandy]

Haven't proven you wrong? Here's your original post.

It's funny to me how gay people identify themselves so much based on their sexuality. Straight people don't go around telling people they are straight or needing to get some sort of validation.

They do. Discussions on what girls are hot when they walk by, gay jokes, public displays of affection, etc.

Lee posts often about his 'gayness' yet I don't see other posting about their sexuality.

Lee posts about his sexuality in a forum dedicated to social issues. Want to find a post where he talked about his sexuality when he was compiling a list of his top 5 iPhone apps?

Most people could care less who you love or sleep with...

Actually, it's apparent they do care, since there's legislation dealing with how they shouldn't marry, how they should engage in sexual relations, and everything else you can think of.

it is when you can't shut up about it that it becomes annoying.

Social issues forum. They're being discriminated against in the strictest form of the word. Isn't that worth "not shutting up about"? I assume you'd just "shut up" and be O.K. with the status quo if blacks didn't have any rights since it doesn't directly affect you (I'm assuming you're white. Switch around the words if you're not).

Kind of like seeing people making out in a waiting room or something, it's irritating no matter straight, gay, etc.

Over the top PDA is annoying in my eyes too. Straight or gay.

That's because some things like sexuality are preferred by most to be private matters not the main topic of discussion daily.

Stop identifying yourselves by your sexuality and everyone else will too.

We're bombarded daily by people showing affection and forcing their sexuality on us. Commercials, sitcoms, movies, everything. The difference is that when Adam Lambert kisses a dude on national TV it becomes a huge scandal. That's called a double standard. If no one cared why would something as simple as two people kissing each other turn into a national topic of discussion? Please, I'd like the hear the explanation.

[leekohler]

A. I do not care in the least about people's ignore lists and find it odd you would think I do. Are people's E-egos that fragile that they are hurt by such ridiculous things? I think it's humorous especially when people "announce it".

Whatever. It's easier to ignore people who don't wish to have a discussion rather than just banging one's head against a wall.

B. You don't want to discuss things you want to be agreed with and affirmed.

A lot of us have been discussing things, including refuting all your points, especially the one about straight people not talking about their sexuality, when it's quite obvious and quite true that they do- daily and constantly.

What is disturbing about you is your inability to acknowledge reality.

and lastly...

C. Your understanding of my presence is irrelevant to it occurring.

Well, for someone who simply has no time to spend on this issue, you sure have posted a lot in this thread. Logic dictates that if one does not have time for this issue, then one would spend none on it.

[harperjones99]

Well, for someone who simply has no time to spend on this issue, you sure have posted a lot in this thread. Logic dictates that if one does not have time for this issue, then one would spend none on it.

The total amount of time I have spent popping in to post has been negligible. Hardly what I would call a LOT of time. So don't worry I was accurate when I said it's not that important to me. But to see you reduced to that kind of commentary warms my heart :)

[leekohler]

The total amount of time I have spent popping in to post has been negligible. Hardly what I would call a LOT of time. So don't worry I was accurate when I said it's not that important to me. But to see you reduced to that kind of commentary warms my heart :)

If you and everyone else took this amount of time and thought to help our cause so that we can "act normal", we would have our rights by now.

I wasn't reduced to anything, you were. You truly are completely divorced from any type of reality. Now that said, good bye. You truly are no longer worth my time.

And don't worry- more threads on gay topics will be started by me in the future, especially now that I know how much it irritates you.

[Eraserhead]

The difference is that when Adam Lambert kisses a dude on national TV it becomes a huge scandal.

I only bought the song because of the publicity created on here by the scandal and it's very good.

[harperjones99]

And don't worry- more threads on gay topics will be started by me in the future, especially now that I know how much it irritates you.

It doesn't upset me near as much as you assume it does. Call it a minor annoyance at best. But in any case I wouldn't be proud of doing something with the intent to annoy...that kind of thing doesn't garner you support and in fact accomplishes the opposite. But best of luck.

[Badandy]

It doesn't upset me near as much as you assume it does. Call it a minor annoyance at best. But in any case I wouldn't be proud of doing something with the intent to annoy...that kind of thing doesn't garner you support and in fact accomplishes the opposite. But best of luck.

Lee's quite well supported on these forums. You, however, with your complete disregard for etiquette and your complete inability to comprehend the arguments people are making (even if you don't agree with them), do not seem to be. [Insert witty sign-off sentence here that makes me look completely awesome]

[harperjones99]

Lee's quite well supported on these forums. You, however, with your complete disregard for etiquette and your complete inability to comprehend the arguments people are making (even if you don't agree with them), do not seem to be. [Insert witty sign-off sentence here that makes me look completely awesome]

And? Where do you get the idea my ego is wrapped up in what a forum generally does or does not think of me? I accept this forum has a bias and don't expect loads of support. What is your point? Do you think that would make me run away crying because you don't like me? It seems you are inferring I would be upset.

[leekohler]

Lee's quite well supported on these forums. You, however, with your complete disregard for etiquette and your complete inability to comprehend the arguments people are making (even if you don't agree with them), do not seem to be. [Insert witty sign-off sentence here that makes me look completely awesome]

Thanks- and harper completely illustrates my assertion that we have made all the allies we are going to make. I don't care what he thinks or if he "accepts" me. All I care about is being treated fairly under the law.