A.B.A denounces Bush Admin re detainees

[diamond geezer]

link (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6697.htm)

08/10/04 "AP" --ATLANTA — The nation's largest lawyers group condemned the government's handling of foreign detainees yesterday over the objections of members who called it a cheap shot at the White House.*

The American Bar Association (ABA) criticized what it called "a widespread pattern of abusive detention methods." Those abuses, it said, "feed terrorism by painting the United States as an arrogant nation above the law."*

The ABA was responding to abuse of Iraqis at Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad and concerns about the treatment of about 600 terrorism suspects being held at Guantánamo Bay Naval Base, Cuba.*

Some lawyers complained that the nonpartisan group, with more than 400,000 members, was getting too political, especially as the presidential election nears.*

David Rivkin Jr., a Washington attorney who served in the Reagan and first Bush administrations, told ABA leaders the resolution was poorly worded and "could be dismissed as grandstanding."*

The Bush administration has aggressively defended its imprisonment, without traditional rights, of those it classifies as enemy combatants. Government officials have said that abuses at overseas prisons have been isolated and that those responsible are being punished.*

An administration lawyer was sent to Atlanta but did not speak against the resolution, which had overwhelming support.*

During the debate, Washington attorney Mark Agrast said, "If we want the world to embrace American ideals, we first must live up to those ideals ourselves."*

"I don't think it's the least bit political," said Neal Sonnett, a Miami attorney who helped draft the plan. "We used strong language because it's deserved. We need to get the administration's attention and the public's attention."*

Prisoners at Abu Ghraib were interrogated for as long as 20 hours at a time, kept hooded and naked, intimidated with dogs and forcibly shaved.*

Administration officials have said other treatment of prisoners there was unauthorized, such as forcing prisoners to perform sex acts, beating them and piling them in a naked human pyramid.*

The ABA proposal recommends strengthening the federal anti-torture law, making it easier to prove criminal charges against soldiers and others who engage in torture, and expanding the law to apply to acts committed in the United States, not just those overseas.*

Copyright: The Associated Press*

You don't need an artist to paint the US as arrogant and above the law, you just need a bloody photographer.

[zimv20]

link

i click and click and click, but nothing ever happens :(

anyone recall the last time the ABA made such a stand? (it's not a quiz, i want to find out)

[diamond geezer]

Hmmm, when is a link, not a link!

link (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/PrintStory.pl?document_id=2002001155&zsection_id=268448413&slug=detain10&date=20040810)

[California]

First, let's take Bush out of the equation.

Kerry advocated unilateral, preemptive attack on Iraq in 1997.

So the candidates are cancelled out.

As to the detainees at Gitmo, they are not US citizens.

FDR detained Nazis in the same way during WWII.

Either we are at war, or we are not.

If the attacks on 9/11 were real, which I believe they were, then we have been at war since 1993 during the first Iraq/Al queda attack and did not know it. Now we have a commander in chief with the cajones to call it a war. Not some wife cheatin' smart aleck who avoided his CIA director like the plague during his whole eight years in office.

Either we fight as if we mean to win, or we shoot ourselves in the foot with our politically correct "kindness". During wartime, appeasement to your enemy only builds up a bloodier blackmail at a later date. Look how our stopping our "police action" in Korea when the Chinese were breathing down our necks turned out. North Korea succeeding in murdering as many per capita as Mao slaughtered during the Cultural Revolution, and now that little totalitarian Orwellian pigsty is saber-rattling at us?!!!

(I'm talking ratios in comparing N Korea to China -- no one can top the 65-85 million people slaughtered at the behest of Red China in the fifty years it has been a "nation".)

Even Lincoln, the Great Emancipator, suspended habeus corpus during the Civil War. He was fighting to save the Union by suspending a few rights during the conflict in which the Union was at stake. Thank God he did what he did.

Less than the same difference here at Guantanamo. Tough beans. What were they doing on the plains of Afghanistan anyway? And the stories I've heard about them doing sexual acts to the female US guards there is equally despicable for those Islamofascists who swear to the Koran.

So what what the ABA thinks. They don't know what the meaning of "is" is.

And don't rag on me because I'm a young conservative female and ex feminist who knows her history. I'm sick of people not knowing our American history and being proud of all the GREAT things about "God's last, best hope for mankind" (Lincoln's words) -- the United States of America.

If you hate our country and have taken up arms against her, you deserve all you get.

Frankly, I am more upset about the wholesale slaughter of innocents in the Sudan by Islamofascists than our men in uniform taking liberties with prisoners in Iraq. In a few years, people will cry that Bush did to the Sudan same way Clinton ignored Rwanda -- but at least Powell addressed the issue with the corrupt UN (who of course, did nothing because more than 75 percent of the UN is comprised of unelected dictatorships!!!)

How come the infamous ABA can't do anything about getting the corrupt UN out of New York? I'm sick of hosting all them spies and foreign "diplomats" to free parking and diplomatic perks in NYC. Also sick of paying for upkeep on the building. Let's move the UN headquarters to Bosnia and see how many people still revere the money wasting, decadent organization it has become. Oops, I mean it always has been since it rubber stamped the Jews coming together to form Israel after the Holocaust.

Or sic the ABA on the problem of the Sudan. Or the problem of all the foreign loans we've made to Europe since WWI and never got paid back. Make 'em a useful organization rather than this nose picking over Gitmo. Please.

[California]

Oh, and about appeasement and fighting a war like you mean to win, not just getting your sword tip a little bloody.

Look what happened when we pulled out of Vietnam.

One million people died in the killing fields.

Americans need to really learn the history of the world right now because the world, literally, is at stake in the war with Islamofascism.

They want to murder us. We must defend ourselves. End of story.

[takao]

FDR detained Nazis in the same way during WWII.
oh really ? can i quote you on that ?


Either we are at war, or we are not.

i _will_ quote you on that...


And don't rag on me because I'm a young conservative female and ex feminist who knows her history. I'm sick of people not knowing our American history and being proud of all the GREAT things about "God's last, best hope for mankind" (Lincoln's words) -- the United States of America.

i hope you not only know american history...
please...leave out the god part... you're a little bit late for that ...



If you hate our country and have taken up arms against her, you deserve all you get.
heard that before...


Frankly, I am more upset about the wholesale slaughter of innocents in the Sudan by Islamofascists than our men in uniform taking liberties with prisoners in Iraq. In a few years, people will cry that Bush did to the Sudan same way Clinton ignored Rwanda -- but at least Powell addressed the issue with the corrupt UN (who of course, did nothing because more than 75 percent of the UN is comprised of unelected dictatorships!!!)

How come the infamous ABA can't do anything about getting the corrupt UN out of New York? I'm sick of hosting all them spies and foreign "diplomats" to free parking and diplomatic perks in NYC. Also sick of paying for upkeep on the building. Let's move the UN headquarters to Bosnia and see how many people still revere the money wasting, decadent organization it has become. Oops, I mean it always has been since it rubber stamped the Jews coming together to form Israel after the Holocaust.

Or sic the ABA on the problem of the Sudan. Or the problem of all the foreign loans we've made to Europe since WWI and never got paid back. Make 'em a useful organization rather than this nose picking over Gitmo. Please.

to say that you know your history and then say something like this is at least comical (no offense)

[blackfox]

California (is that irony?),

It is appropriate that you are in a forum regarding computers, as your thinking is definitely binary.

There is entirely too much in your post(s) to tackle, but I would briefly submit:
That you cannot simply "take Bush out of the equation" for argument's sake, he has for better or worse, been our President for the last few years and his actions bear a seriousness and relevance that demand scrutiny and accountability.

I find there is a difference in supporting a candidate because he belongs to a party that espouses the ideals/priorities you agree with and supporting a candidate on his merits as an individual politician. You may feel that lowering the tax burden and shrinking government is the way to go. You may feel that we need to be "tough" and proactive in dealing with those who would seek to attack the US or it's symbolism. That is your perogative and one with definite merit.

If you look at Bush the individual, however, and his record, you will find that beyond the rhetoric Bush has done the bare-minimum of the task and unnecessarily made a mess of a symbolic, important and expensive War in Iraq. I really feel for many conservatives, as their choice is between Kerry, who as a Liberal represents a school of thought antithetical to your priorities, and Bush, who despite towing a conservative party line that appeals to many, is utterly incompetent at realizing said goals.

As to the topic, what is the irony of going to a country to institute and foster "freedom" and at the same time denying it to a select amount of people in our custody. I applaud the acknowledgement, even war criminals deserve a fair and open trial. If they are truly guilty, the end result is the same.

[Ugg]

Either we are at war, or we are not.



Good point, since this is an illegal war, then we are not bound by any sense of human decency or any of the charters/international agreements we've signed? While the ABA may be somewhat self serving with this statement, there's no doubt that the lack of regard for detainee's legal rights is a very scary precedent. It could well be you the govt. comes for next given the current ashcroftian "kill all those who disagree with us" policy. Ah, but it could never happen to such an upright rightwing citizen as yourself........

[stubeeef]

since this is an illegal war
But we haven't heard from Judge Judy yet.

So we should lay down our arms, cause the terror types are waging a legal war? Therefore they win? WhaWhaWhat?

[California]

I'm not for Bush because he's an ostensible "conservative".

With both Reps and Dems records on the immigration issue during a time of war -- well -- let's say it is all convenient hypocrisy. Convenient because they know how leaky our ports and borders are.

My brother was probably the only Dem in the Army and he was at Gitmo, Afghanistan and Iraq and North Korea.

Outside of that, I just don't feel sorry for the detainees at Gitmo. They may be misguided, they may be young, they may be Moslem but they aren't Americans and they hate America.

Think about it, even with ALL our flaws, what country is better than America?

Where do you have at least the ideal of a classless society, a society where merit and hard work still get you someplace?

Can't think of anyplace off hand. So why do the women hating Islamofascists hate us?

I just doesn't make sense unless you are a crazy murderer who thinks a just and holy God smiles on the murdering of innocents when you go to get your seventytwo virgin reward. Sorry they are so decieved but THEY started the war with US.

[Ugg]

Think about it, even with ALL our flaws, what country is better than America?

Where do you have at least the ideal of a classless society, a society where merit and hard work still get you someplace?


Switzerland, Iceland, Finland, Sweden, Norway, New Zealand and I'm sure there are a couple of others that could easily join the list. In all honesty though, they are homogenous societies for the most part and homogenity lends itself much better to a meritocratic society although there are exceptions like Canada. I would have included Australia in the list but until Howard and his fellow gits get kicked out of office, I don't think it would be a pleasant place to live.

America is a great place for all its flaws but there other places that are greater.

BTW, have you spent any time outside of the US borders? I find that the most rabid flag wavers are those that have traveled the least.

[Ugg]

I just doesn't make sense unless you are a crazy murderer who thinks a just and holy God smiles on the murdering of innocents when you go to get your seventytwo virgin reward. Sorry they are so decieved but THEY started the war with US.

Well, this country is damned then.

You really should read a little about the history of the middle east. 9-11 is just one event in a series, by isolating it you ignore at your peril, as has gw, the fact that life is a straight line, not a series of unconnected dots.

The history of the west and of America is filled with murder of the innocent. It's so sad to see someone spew so much bile and venom as that only incites the murder of more innocent people.

Where did you come from? Ususally newbies who start trolling like you have don't last long but it would be interesting to know where you came from. Another incarnation of sly/voltron

[zimv20]

My brother was probably the only Dem in the Army and he was at Gitmo, Afghanistan and Iraq and North Korea.
wow, does that reek of ********.

not only is that quite a tour, but:
1) when's the last time army troops were in north korea, and
2) guatanamo bay is a naval base, w/ a lot of marines. is there really an army presence there?

[Sayhey]

wow, does that reek of ********

I'm just waiting for the Newsmaxx and FreeRepublic links combined with "allot" of other nonsense. He's a woman this time - does that qualify as progress?

On the topic of the thread, it is unfortunately a very important condemnation of the Bush administration and the Dept. of Defense that will be swept aside because the ABA must be some liberal front group for the Kerry campaign. If it was just the wing-nuts of the right it would be one thing, but I'm betting the so called liberal media will cave and give this unprecedented statement little or no coverage.

[skunk]

Ah, if only life was that simple....

[solvs]

It just doesn't make sense unless you are a crazy murderer who thinks a just and holy God smiles on the murdering of innocents when you go to get your seventy two virgin reward. Sorry they are so decieved but THEY started the war with US.
Who? Saddam? Iraq? You do know they had nothing to do with 9/11, right? I could see where you would be confused (mislead), but this goes back way farther than you are apparently wanting to look.

Or do all brown people need to be punished? :rolleyes:

[zimv20]

Or do all brown people need to be punished? :rolleyes:

innocent:
http://i17.ebayimg.com/01/i/02/7e/9a/b0_1_b.JPG



GUILTY!!!
http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/77/039_36740.jpg

[stubeeef]

California,
Is that you carvel? posing as a numb right wing guy? satire with stinch?

[California]

You guys are funny. I am who I say I am, a youngish female from California and, hate to break it to you, but there are PLENTY of women I know who believe exactly like I do -- alll converted ex liberals who are sick of the wimpyness and sexism of socialist thought as it corrupts everything the US stands for.

Oh, yeah and my bro was in N Korea iin the mid nineties, the other countries later, I don't want to say anything else but you seem smart enough to figure out what branch of the Army he's in. Let's just say he's now in the NE with the type of position most career army guys dream of. I'm VERY proud of him.

I've travelled lots. The mid east, Europe, South America. As for the countries you've mentioned, how come people still want to come here, will pay big bucks to come here? Is the immigration problem a big deal in Holland? Didn't think so. And most of those countries are having a terrible time with their socialist high tax rate thinking. Socialism/communism/Marxism doesn't work. Even just a little. It's a ponzi scheme that sucks initiative, individuality and creativity out of the common man -- not to mention the estimated 300 million people murdered by Mao, Pol Pot, Lenin, Stalin, etc., etc. (These are conservative statistics from THE BLACK BOOK OF COMMUNISM, a book written with pain in the late nineties by some liberal French intellectuals, go figure.)

I'm a Christian, guys. And an Ivy League educated one. I DO believe as Lincoln did that this is God's last best hope for mankind -- the United States. There has never been a better country concieved of on earth. I distrust the UN because it wants to suck sovereignty from the U.S. (France just proposed a WORLD WIDE tax to fight poverty administrated by the UN -- like that will work.)

Ya know, right after 9/11, I got to see the America of my grandfather and father. We had spontaneous prayer meetings on the main boulevard (I'm in LA). Kids on skate boards were screaming "God Bless America" at 2 AM on the sidewalks. There was no political party --- we were one country that month -- we were all Americans.

That's the America I love. That's the America my brother would lay down his life for. That's the America those guys in that plane headed for Washington DC laid down their lives for. Deep down, left and right, we know that this is the best place ever created. That's what I believe; you guys have a problem with that?

[zimv20]

<rambling, unstructured mess chomped>
300 million? accounting, please.

[blackfox]

Perhaps we are. I am who I say I am, though you obviously took little time to consider anything about me. For the record, I am a youngish male living in Oregon and, hate to break it to you, but there are PLENTY of women (and men) I know who believe exactly like I do -- all converted ex politically-inert individuals, who tend not to look at candidates through the prism of Party rhetoric. We are sick of the <insert scary adjective> of neo-conservative thought as it corrupts everything the US stands for. I do not pretend to know the definitive answer to what the US stands for.

Oh, yeah and my bro was in Australia in the mid nineties, and other countries later, I don't want to say anything else but you seem smart enough to figure out what he was doing - he was on vacation. The beauty was, he was able to travel freely as an American, as Americans were generally well-regarded, as we hadn't pissed off a whole Culture by heavy-handed tactics in the ME and most of the rest of the world by doing such a piss-poor job of it. Let's just say he's now in the NW, with the type of position most guys dream of. He's married. He is also in Law school, perhaps so he can figure out how to emigrate to Canada. I'm VERY proud of him.

I've travelled lots. Mostly throughout North America and Europe. As for the countries you've mentioned, how come those people seem to be entitled to basic health care and funded education, yet we here in the US have the most money and still cant manage to provide either? here, we will pay big bucks to aquire those services from private providers Is the immigration problem a big deal in Holland? I don't know. It would be irrelevant to any point anyway. Most of those countries are having a terrible time with their fair-weather friend, America. Their Social-Democracies, still adjusting to EU integration and expansion, are further subjected to an Economic downturn due to irresponsible US Fiscal Policy, the effects rippling across the Western, and even World Markets. Socialism/communism/Marxism are Political or Economic ideologies and rarely seen in real life, but when seen, are usually complex composites of ideology tailored to fit the needs of the governing and (less so) the governed. Although many on the political Right seem to look at any political thought left of Reagan as "Socialist" such an over-simplification is both innaccurate and insulting. Even just a little. It's a ponzi scheme that sucks initiative, individuality and creativity out of both the Candidate and the Voter -- not to mention the estimated 300 million people in the US whose lives are directly effected by the power of well-position rhetoric, despite their validity. (These are conservative statistics from LOOKING OUT MY WINDOW or READING ANY NEWSPAPER, a form of information-gathering written with pain in the late nineties by some "liberals" who were called that because they were attempting to do their jobs properly, and were faced with an well-funded partisan competition and a public with ADD.

I'm a Christian, guys. Since I am a Liberal, I am obviously a student of Satan. My other Professors were also mentally-challenged. I DO believe as Lincoln did that more Presidents should sport beards. I also agreed with him stating that this is God's last best hope for mankind -- the United States. I also believe that hoping it so is much different from it being so, and that it would take work. There has never been a better country concieved of on earth. That does not make it the best Today. I distrust the US because it wants to suck sovereignty from the <insert [muslim] country>and marginalize an International Body such as the UN as it suits them (France just proposed a WORLD WIDE tax to fight poverty administrated by the UN -- like we would do that here in America. We dislike taxes.)

Ya know, about a year after 9/11, I got to see the America of my grandfather and father. The America of McCarthy. We had spontaneous meetings on the Park Blocks or in a Resturant or coffee-house (I'm in Portland). We talked about the tradgedy and the effect it was having on the populace. People hadn't been this scared in America since the Red Scare of the 50's into the 60's, and once again some in Government were using this fear to push their own narrow agenda and vision of America. Questions were considered unpatriotic. Kids on skate boards were screaming " ****** Bush" at 2 AM on the sidewalks. This was no political party ideology --- just disbelief -- we were all Americans. And we were pissed off.

The America I love, is not the one that I see. That's the America my brother, or my neighbor or someone's son would lay down his life for.

The America I see is the one below the candy-coating. Where the dark sides of Capitalism, consumerism and Privatization are increasingly showing their hand. It is more difficult to find and hide the people you must ******* over and ignore the complaints of those you already have. That's the America those guys in that plane headed for Washington DC laid down their lives for. Deep down, left and right, we know that this is the best place ever created. That's what I believe; you guys have a problem with that? Well then expect and demand better than Bush.

[takao]

I've travelled lots. The mid east, Europe, South America. As for the countries you've mentioned, how come people still want to come here, will pay big bucks to come here?

personal experience: all friends who visited the USA said that they would never live there ... and some of them really adored the US culture before their trip in the US (overall it were 7-8 people who were there) and they came back desillusioned
and yeah: those who visited it after 11/9 came back scared


We had spontaneous prayer meetings on the main boulevard (I'm in LA).

i had to grin about that line... ;)



That's the America I love. That's the America my brother would lay down his life for. That's the America those guys in that plane headed for Washington DC laid down their lives for. Deep down, left and right, we know that this is the best place ever created. That's what I believe; you guys have a problem with that?

i wouldn't give my live for my country or any other country on this world..but austria doesn't really have enemies around... nowadays .. so the question is hypothetical ...
i am quite happy here and have no reason to go somewhere else ...why should i ?

ps: you _think_ that the US is the best place ever created...but i wouldn't us the word 'created' together with nations... i've got a problem with that and you wanting to force your opinions on me ;)

[toontra]

Deep down, left and right, we know that this is the best place ever created. That's what I believe; you guys have a problem with that?

This is the sort of arrogant nonsense which makes the US increasingly despised around the globe. To claim to have religious beliefs and then bang on about how your country is the "best place ever created" is IMO an indication of an ideology devoid of any spiritual consideration.

Wake up - this is one world - we are all the same. Some are more privileged than others, true, but to use that privilege to look down on the rest with a patronising, dismissive attitude is about as un-religious as it gets.

[pseudobrit]

Ann Coulter in the house.

[zimv20]

b'fox -- stunning satire. bravo.

[pseudobrit]

They want to murder us. We must defend ourselves. End of story.

Cool.

Erm, why are we in Iraq, then?

[mactastic]

Ya know, right after 9/11, I got to see the America of my grandfather and father. We had spontaneous prayer meetings on the main boulevard (I'm in LA). Kids on skate boards were screaming "God Bless America" at 2 AM on the sidewalks. There was no political party --- we were one country that month -- we were all Americans.

Ah yes, and Sikhs were being murdered as well in the America you just described. For what? Looking Arabic. Let's go back the the good old days of your grandfather. Or how about to the days when women couldn't vote? How about those good old days? Oh the longing for the days when men were men and women were chattel, and blacks knew their place.

Most people who dream of 'the good old days' are white and male. Congratulations on breaking at least one of those stereotypes.

[skunk]

Maybe...

[California]

'Specially to zimv20 and toontra:

Uh, where shall I start. Toon, you asked for an accounting of the millions murdered by Marxist idealogy? Google "THE BLACK BOOK OF COMMUNISM" c. 1999 in France; English translation was in 2000. Then buy the book.

Scary that more people have been murdered in the name of Marx than all other people murdered in all other wars in the history of the world.

And these are conservative estimates for the numbers of people murdered in the name of Marx -- numbers that unnerved the quasi socialists who compiled them!

How come the U.S. is better than any other country?
Because of her ideals. What she stands for and how hard we are even arguing about the U.S. when this country does NOT live up to her ideals. That's why more people want to come here than any other country.

Problem with Europe, of course, was the aristocratic/class system that still pervades and is the underlying reason people there are suckers for socialism. But socialism/communism is not sharing because you want to in your heart. Socialism/communism is being FORCED to share what you earn by the butt of a gun -- and unfair taxation. Any altruism that libs sense in socialistic thought is always cancelled out by theh form of government that backs up communistic or socialistic economies: totalitarianism!

(Okay, the old USSR and China and N. Korea and Cuba are ostensibly oligarchies but they are essentially totalitarian police states -- fascist -- that give lip service to the idea that their goals are altruistic. The oligarchy of the proletariat is a dangerous ruse for their fascism. Ask all the people in the Chinese labor camps.)

US was founded on the idea that there were no classes. Why a backwoods no one like Lincoln or Clinton could become Prez. Why we fought a war to really include all men are created equal into our political process.

Most people confuse the economic structure of the United States -- basic capitalism -- with its political structure: a democratic republic.

It is this backhanded Marxism and when I mean Marxism I mean the idea that the laborer and Capital or the owners or industry are always at odds.

In America, you are not held back to one class strata -- the laborer can rise up and become an owner. Writing in Europe in the middle of the industrial revolution gave Marx tunnel vision and he was only concerned with one thing, money, and how to get the laborers to rise up against the "evil" owners of industry.

I notice when people want to criticize the U.S., they like to point out that it is because we are greedy capitalists. Is the nascent EU greedy because it wants to compete with the U.S.? Is China greedy because it wants to pretend to be capitalistic in order to fund its military aspirations? Ripping the US for being capitalistic skirts the issue of the genius of our political system with its checks and balances against tyranny and totalitarianism.

Capitalism is our form of economy. We are a democratic republic, with elected representatives.

Toontra, we all may be one human race, but all countries are not alike. There are no mass graves of policial murders in the United States.
We do not torture and imprision people for excercising their free speech or faith. It is the ideal of the US that is compelling, and unlike ANY OTHER NATION on earth, being America is not about your culture or race. In order to be an American you have to believe in the ideals of America -- that all men are created equal and that no man should believe he is the better of any other man.

The US has good and lofty goals -- and set apart from the founding of any other country on earth. England was a monarchy -- an inherently unfair situation that decreed the "noble" classes were more blessed by God than the unwashed commoners. Germany -- uh do I need to say anything there except it was a shame that FDR was hoodwiinked by Alger Hiss and Stalin into giving half of Germany over to the Reds? The master race became the slave race to the whims of the Soviet slave bloc.

Hey all you guys need to read Orwell again, anyway.

I'm not interested in arguing with you -- only want to say that this country is GOOD and the reason that American ideals are the best hope for the earth is because freedom and justice and equality are goals that every other nation needs to figure out.

As for the WOT, I'm glad that Bush freed so many women in both Afghanistan and Iraq. War isn't pretty. But totalitarianism and mass murder is uglier. (And you guys know that Saddam's personal idol was Stalin? Down to the moustache. Do your research.)

Nuff for now. If you guys REALLY want to debate about the Iraq ties to the first World Trade Center, okay, but first do your research on the Iraqi intelligence services and why the guy we caught in connection with it had a fictitious Kuwaiti passport. It is so peculiar to me that people who don't like the US are always mesmerized by the blacklist (Without doing their homework on the Smith Act of 1940 or that films did not have First amendment protection back then) -- without knowing the first thing about espionage and foreign intelligence services and why Truman was compelled to start up the CIA.

If you don't know the history of US intelligence services -- then you don't know the history of the US and it is impossible to understand how the ostensible end of the cold war begat the war on terror.

[takao]

There are no mass graves of policial murders in the United States.

hm... then what is about the native americans ? didn't the US army use even "biological weapons" to kill them ? (infected textils if i'm correct)...isn't that politcal murder as well ....oh a nice words springs to my mind: "lebensraum"

how old is the US ? 228 years...thats 780 years less than austria (if you count the first naming of austria in 996 AD as "ostarrichi" in official documents...
so there is lot of time for change..and i have no doubt that change will come


"into giving half of Germany over to the Reds?"

haha LOL ..i feel so sorry for you....do you seriously believe that the US army + british army + french army could have held up the red army in 1945 ? ... you gotta be frickin' kidding ... there is a reason why it was called "the russian steamroll" from the german total losses 75% of all soldiers died in the east from 41-45... more than 80% of all tanks/armoured vehicle losses on the eastern front .. etc.


another point...if the US is about ideals ... why don't they support the organizations they promoted in the past (aka. the UN)
or are against the personal mine ban ?(just like iraq,north korea, iran,afgahnistan,syria, <insert favourite axis of evil country here>) could it be that the oh so glorious US is not so holy after all ? ...
and why isn't the biggest democracy in the middle east not supported but dictatorships or kingdoms ?
or ask people who visited the US as tourist or journalist in the last years...
and yeah vietnam was really about ideals.....

[Dont Hurt Me]

Ann Coulter now there is a free thinker. :D

[California]

Takao:

Well, at least America wasn't coopted by the Nazis as Austria was so famously that day in March 1938, when Hitler seized the spear of Longines at the Austrian museum. We, on the other hand, defeated the Nazis.

The Red Army had losses of 20 million in WWII. We had less than the 600,000 men who died in our Civil War. By the time Stalin came to the table we had the bomb and he didn't (though he had Ted Hall and the Rosenbergs in place to get our secrets) and we frittered that advantage away and committed millions to Soviet slavery after WWII. This is why Churchill said so famously that the "iron curtain" had dropped over Europe.

Anyway I was referring to Yalta and how Alger Hiss and Stalin worked together against the U.S. and Churchill -- and those famous meetings were also the time and place the set up for the UN was drafted.

(After the formation of Israel with the nascent UN's blessing, what "ideals" has the UN ever stood for? What wars has it prevented? It's a hotbed for spies and overspending by foreign diplomats, as far as its record stands. 3/4ths of its member states are dictatorships! And the oil for food corruption will eventually come out to show how Bin Laden and Saddam were personal recipients of its monies, NOT the starving masses. How do you think Bin Laden, who was broke by the mid nineties and disinherited, got Al Queda started again? Do your homework.)

Every nation has its own ideals to live up to. America's is unique because it is not bound by race or culture -- but it is the only nation on earth that is bound together by its ideals alone. Again, that is why she is unique and has been so blessed.

For example, as De Toqueville noted back in the 1830's the only two nations on the rise at that time were Russia and the US. Russia has, by far, more natural resources than does the U.S. What happened? Why is the Russian economy today third world with nukes? 70 years of communism and eating its own happened. Stalin rendered her agriculture impotent by the wholesale slaughter of the farmers in the Ukraine by the millions. By the mid 1950's Russia could still not feed herself. She should have been the breadbasket of Europe -- instead she was its slave driver -- using her soviet satelite states to feed her own gaping maw. Poland, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Checkoslovakia all fell to the iron fist of red totalitarianism and slavery. It was still not enough. When Khruschev came to America in '59, he had to bend down and take a bite out of a potato because he could not believe what he was seeing in the fields of Idaho was actually real.

That just shows that the ideals of a country matter -- what we stand for matters and I believe every nation has a moral imperative to live up to its ideals. I believe that the US was created with the best of our western ideals, the fairest. When we don't live up to them, and we don't a lot of the time, it is a problem, but at least there is free speech in this country where you can actually criticize it! And free elections where you can change it. And a free economy where you can work and make something of yourself.

As for me being like Anne Coulter, let's just say that I interviewed a lot of the same people that she was quoting from in her last book for one of my own projects. In person. She is a great wit and smarter than any journo I've seen out there now. Scary smart. But I'm a brunette.

[zimv20]

Takao:

Well, at least America wasn't coopted by the Nazis as Austria was so famously that day in March 1938, when Hitler seized the spear of Longines at the Austrian museum. We, on the other hand, defeated the Nazis.
jesus, what an incredibly crass thing to say. you have absolutely no class and are now ignored.

[blackfox]

California, your post (including the portion quoted by zim), is exactly why many people around the world, including allies, are not entirely averse to seeing America embarrass and weaken itself in it's arrogance.

Simple Foreign Policy Lesson: People are often your "enemy" because you are, or have been an "a**hole" to them. This truth transcends ideological, ethnic and Cultural divisions. Wars and conflicts are fought because of **********.

Right now, as illustrated by both our President and your post, we are the biggest "**********".

You reap what you sow...

[takao]

Well, at least America wasn't coopted by the Nazis as Austria was so famously that day in March 1938, when Hitler seized the spear of Longines at the Austrian museum. We, on the other hand, defeated the Nazis.

actually most people don't really care about the 'spear of longines' (you mean "Die Heilige Lanze" ? ) for you information austria fought muzltiple years against german sponsered nazi terrorism..austria abolished even some civil rights to fight them .. and got some sort of trade embargo from germany (the most important trade partner) because of that... and the political leaders of 1938 and the socialistic ones who were in prison got sent to dachau within the first week after the 'official' takeover
where was 'international help' in 1938 ?..oh i forgot austria and chez republic aren't _that_ important
you were part of defeated the nazis but you just can't get over it that you weren't the #1
but on the other hand i saw a report about neo nazis in the US the last week ...it was fun to count what things he had in his room (or said) could get him arrested ..after while i stopped counting (and how they said that they are republicans made me smile even more...)


How do you think Bin Laden, who was broke by the mid nineties and disinherited, got Al Queda started again? Do your homework.

hm 1991 ..troops stationed in Saudi arabia...pisses a lot of muslim off...
bin laden writes letter to the saudi king that if the king sends back the americans that he will build up a strong army of mudjahedin like he did with saudi/american support in afghanistan and defeat iraq...the king refuses and stays with american way...many muslims still pissed of because they don't like 'infidels' in their own country after lots of years..growing support for bin laden
homework: done


Every nation has its own ideals to live up to. America's is unique because it is not bound by race or culture -- but it is the only nation on earth that is bound together by its ideals alone. Again, that is why she is unique and has been so blessed.

name them...


That just shows that the ideals of a country matter -- what we stand for matters and I believe every nation has a moral imperative to live up to its ideals. I believe that the US was created with the best of our western ideals, the fairest. When we don't live up to them, and we don't a lot of the time, it is a problem, but at least there is free speech in this country where you can actually criticize it! And free elections where you can change it. And a free economy where you can work and make something of yourself.

you forgot lots of slaves untill the 1860.. mass murdering of the native americans (you haven't adressed that in your reply..what a surprise)...and torture untill today...

don't get me wrong... i like america ..but compared to the swiss your record isn't very good
and how you treat people visiting your country is ,gently said, not nice...

[solvs]

If you guys REALLY want to debate about the Iraq ties to the first World Trade Center, okay, but first do your research on the Iraqi intelligence services.
Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. That is a fact. Nor do they have WMDs, or were an immediate threat against the U.S. Unlike some other countries who were, and we are now pulling out of to try to clean up the mess we have made in Iraq. Where my best friend is right now. He's under fire from an insurgence worse than Saddam. We have helped fan those flames.

If you want to talk about history, who put Saddam into power? Who trained Osama Bin Laden? Who spent all of August of 2001 on vacation despite people like Richard Clarke writing reports like "Bin Laden determined to attack the United States"? Who pissed away the good will of the rest of the world, who were behind us after we were attacked, before we invaded the wrong country?

But they're all bad, and we're always right so we don't need those Socialist/Commie/Marxist/whatevers anyway, and if you're not with us you're against us, right? :rolleyes:

As for me being like Anne Coulter, let's just say that I interviewed a lot of the same people that she was quoting from in her last book for one of my own projects. In person. She is a great wit and smarter than any journo I've seen out there now. Scary smart.
Now read where you wrote:

That just shows that the ideals of a country matter -- what we stand for matters and I believe every nation has a moral imperative to live up to its ideals. I believe that the US was created with the best of our western ideals, the fairest. When we don't live up to them, and we don't a lot of the time, it is a problem, but at least there is free speech in this country where you can actually criticize it! And free elections where you can change it.
Ann Coulter is one of the "journalists" who calls the people who disagree with the war "traitors". Apparently when I criticize Clinton for getting a BJ, I'm a patriot. But if I question why we are going to war with the wrong country, I am being unpatriotic. And if I don't like it, I should just get out. Funny, I thought we were trying to get away from King George.

You want some hipocrasy with that rhetoric?

[pseudobrit]

Takao:

Well, at least America wasn't coopted by the Nazis as Austria was so famously that day in March 1938, when Hitler seized the spear of Longines at the Austrian museum. We, on the other hand, defeated the Nazis.

After we stood by and let them conquer and enslave half of Europe. We'd heard the reports of genocide, and we did nothing for years.

The Red Army had losses of 20 million in WWII. We had less than the 600,000 men who died in our Civil War. By the time Stalin came to the table we had the bomb and he didn't (though he had Ted Hall and the Rosenbergs in place to get our secrets) and we frittered that advantage away and committed millions to Soviet slavery after WWII. This is why Churchill said so famously that the "iron curtain" had dropped over Europe.

So we should have nuked the Soviets? Ya, that would have worked really well. We did threaten them with the bomb at least twice before their own test on September 1949.

Anyway I was referring to Yalta and how Alger Hiss and Stalin worked together against the U.S. and Churchill -- and those famous meetings were also the time and place the set up for the UN was drafted.

Most Germans were terrified of Soviet rule. Himmler for one had attempted to negotiate peace with the US and Britain exclusive of a peace with the Soviets so Germany could regroup, ignore the western front and expel the Soviets from the east.

(After the formation of Israel with the nascent UN's blessing, what "ideals" has the UN ever stood for? What wars has it prevented?

It's mostly intangible, but the UN certainly has saved millions of lives, and not always by averting war.

3/4ths of its member states are dictatorships!

Source, please.

How do you think Bin Laden, who was broke by the mid nineties and disinherited, got Al Queda started again?

He kept a little of the CIA money we gave his mujahadeen stashed away?

For example, as De Toqueville noted back in the 1830's the only two nations on the rise at that time were Russia and the US. Russia has, by far, more natural resources than does the U.S.

Russia only has arable 7.33% of its land; the US has 19%. The US also has twice as many permanent crops (as a percentage) and much more irrigated land.

I believe that the US was created with the best of our western ideals, the fairest.

Would those be the laissez fairest ideals?

When we don't live up to them, and we don't a lot of the time, it is a problem, but at least there is free speech in this country where you can actually criticize it! And free elections where you can change it. And a free economy where you can work and make something of yourself.

You're waxing nostalgic about the days of your father and grandfather again, aren't you?

As for me being like Anne Coulter, let's just say that I interviewed a lot of the same people that she was quoting from in her last book for one of my own projects. In person.

Cool, did you interview or read any of the sources from which she just made **** up?

In person. She is a great wit and smarter than any journo I've seen out there now. Scary smart. But I'm a brunette.

I'm not sure how you got any special insight into Anne Coulter by interviewing her sources, but okay...

[Doc27]

Originally Posted by California
Takao:

Well, at least America wasn't coopted by the Nazis as Austria was so famously that day in March 1938, when Hitler seized the spear of Longines at the Austrian museum. We, on the other hand, defeated the Nazis.

[QUOTE=pseudobrit]After we stood by and let them conquer and enslave half of Europe. We'd heard the reports of genocide, and we did nothing for years.

And now you want us to do the same thing in Iraq, nothing for years while simply sitting back listening to the reports of genocide while Saddam works on his weapon programs. Weapon program he would've been working on had he not had to worry about outsiders keeping such close observations on. The sanctions weren't working, and they couldn't continue on forever.

[pseudobrit]

And now you want us to do the same thing in Iraq, nothing for years while simply sitting back listening to the reports of genocide while Saddam works on his weapon programs...

As for the sanctions not working, the fact that Iraq was nearly completely disarmed and had no weapons programmes is evidence that they were.

Did I say we should do nothing about genocide? I'll thank you for not putting words in my mouth in the future, thank you.

I wonder how you know my positions enough to judge them so quickly. Are you clairvoyant or just been lurking for a few months?

Unless of course, you've been here before...

[mactastic]

The US defeated the Nazi's? How incredibly insufferably arrogant of you.

You speak of your incredible grasp of history, yet your words betray you. Yes we were a part of the coalition that defeated the Axis nations. Were we the only one? Did we provide either the most money or the most troops to the effort? Were the 'ideals' you speak of what got us into the war, or did we come in after much suffering and after many nations had fallen?

And now I'm sure you'd like to point to the depth and breadth of our 'coalition of the willing' as proof of how right we are.

[pseudobrit]

The US defeated the Nazi's? How incredibly insufferably arrogant of you.

And we cowed the entire British Empire in 1812, fought off imperialism in the Great War, destroyed the Soviet Union to win the cold war, crushed the Spanish menace at the turn of last century and expelled Saddam's troops from Kuwait.

All selflessly and singlehandedly, I might add.

[Sayhey]

b'fox -- stunning satire. bravo.

I agree -- have to give that post a standing ovation. Now, how do I do a Joe Pesci imitation over the internet? "Anybody got a problem with 'dat?" :D

[takao]

And we cowed the entire British Empire in 1812, fought off imperialism in the Great War, destroyed the Soveit Union to win the cold war, crushed the Spanish menace at the turn of last century and expelled Saddam's troops from Kuwait.

All selflessly and singlehandedly, I might add.

you forgot that you brought the roman empire to your knees, fought 9 wars against the expansive ottoman empire ... ohh and don't forgot how you teached the wikings a lesson...

[mactastic]

teached the wikings a lesson...

Have you been out partying again Takao? :p

[pseudobrit]

Have you been out partying again Takao? :p

Well, to him, "vikings" would sound like "phikings," so wikings only makes sense.

It did to me anyway, but my English is half German to begin with.

[mactastic]

Well, to him, "vikings" would sound like "phikings," so wikings only makes sense.

It did to me anyway, but my English is half German to begin with.

Ah yes... driving the fau veh and all

Ah the joys of a language with no 'W' sound...
:D

[takao]

doh..when i started writing my response i thought "don't forget to write wikings with an v" and 3 lines later i already had it forgotten...

actually the v of 'vikings' sounds the same like the w of the german 'Wikinger' ..of course..the word is pronouced different after the W/v ;)

[mactastic]

doh..when i started writing my response i thought "don't forget to write wikings with an v" and 3 lines later i already had it forgotten...

actually the v of 'vikings' sounds the same like the w of the german 'Wikinger' ..of course..the word is pronouced different after the W/v ;)

You do quite well considering English isn't a first language for you. I'd totally forgotten that W sounds like a V to you. Just so you know too, it's 'taught those Vikings a lesson'. Not picking on you, just trying to help. Unfortunately you can't just put an 'ed' on teach and get the past tense.

[takao]

Unfortunately you can't just put an 'ed' on teach and get the past tense.

hehe ...sometimes when i'm not sure i just use "-ed"
i guess my english teacher would kill me instantly if i had written such sentences in class 3 years ago

notes to myself:
*don't post on macrumours and eat at the same time while listening to music
*find english version of europa universalis 2

[IJ Reilly]

English is such a perverse language -- it seems to have more exceptions than rules. I admire any non-native speaker who can figure out how to communicate in English. You are understood -- carry on!

But I have to admit, I got a chuckle out out "wikings" -- I thought immediately of Checkov from Star Trek.

[California]

mactastic

Uh, "arrogant" to say the U.S. defeated the Nazis?

WHO did then? How come Churchill begged FDR to get us in the war?

Who supplied the tanks to the Reds (after Stalin's hero, Hitler, switched sides when the Soviets realized Hitler inteneded to attack Russia) and armaments to the Allies?

Who died on DDAY?

Who died at Pearl Harbor?

My aged step father was at BOTH Pearl Harbor and DDAY btw.

It is not arrogant to say the US defeated the Nazis.

What PC revisionism.

Oh, yeah, interesting question for you.

Where did the term "politically incorrect" stem from and (here's the giveaway) what was the usual punishment for it in that country?

[skunk]

Not only arrogant, but ignorant and obnoxious. Your aged stepfather should be ashamed of you.

[mactastic]

mactastic

Uh, "arrogant" to say the U.S. defeated the Nazis?

Uhh yes. Arrogant is the word for that. What percentage of deaths were the Americans out of the Allies in WWII?

How can you possible claim we were singlehandedly responsible for winning WWII with a straight face?

WHO did then? How come Churchill begged FDR to get us in the war?

Uhhh... The ALLIES did. Not the US. There is a difference, even if you don't see it.

Who supplied the tanks to the Reds (after Stalin's hero, Hitler, switched sides when the Soviets realized Hitler inteneded to attack Russia) and armaments to the Allies?

What does that have to do with anything?

Who died on DDAY?

Lots of people. Not just Americans.

Who died at Pearl Harbor?

Who died at the Battle of the Bulge? Who died in the Battle of Britain? Oh that's right, those were AMERICANS huh? Puhleeze

My aged step father was at BOTH Pearl Harbor and DDAY btw.

So what? Does that in any way prove that the US was the sole force defeating the Nazis?

It is not arrogant to say the US defeated the Nazis.

Yes it is. Not to mention revisionist BS of the highest caliber.

What PC revisionism.

Funny, I was just thinking the same thing about what you said... ;)

You are entitled to you own opinion, but not your own set of facts.

[solvs]

Who supplied the tanks to the Reds?
The fact that you refer to them as "Reds" makes me think that arguing with you is kinda pointless. I'm not exactly a PC-thug like you think we all are, but you haven't really presented any facts to back up your arguments. Just opinions, some random comments that have nothing to do with this post, and some racial slurs. You are welcome to your opinion, but please do not present it as irreputable fact just because your Step-Dad might have been there.

"Spear of Longines"? Seriously? We all know the story, but... wha?

[skunk]

"Spear of Longines"? Seriously? We all know the story, but... wha?
Clearly, he's referring to the watchmaker...

[California]

"Racial slurs"?

Like what?

Since no one knew the answer to the politically incorrect question, here is another --

what would have happened if the U.S. had NOT entered WWII?

Answer: We'd all be living in Albert Speer designed fascist communities of the Reich -- those of us who are NOT Jewish, Gay, Catholic or undesirable that is.

[solvs]

Maybe not "racial", but Reds? It doesn't help your argument. I know, I'm just being politically correct. :rolleyes: I'll be sure to tell my Russian Grandmother that.

And we should have entered WWII, but sooner. Just like we should be at war right now... with Afganistan. Or more specifically Al Quieda. With other countires who were supporting us. Just like we did with them in WWII. Eventually. But Iraq might have been doing something we already know other countries were doing, so of course we should attack them alone. Hey, the English and Australians seem happy to be there. And the Polish, can't forget them (sarcasm) Pollacks.

But again, what does this have to do with the original topic?

[pseudobrit]

what would have happened if the U.S. had NOT entered WWII?

Japan would have controlled Asia and the Pacific.

Russia would have slowly rolled over Hitler.

Oh, but you already "knew" the answer to that, and it's America to the Rescue™ again!

What would have happened in WWI if it weren't for the US entering, oh, esteemed historian in our midst?

[California]

pseudo brit:

By the late '30's Stalin had decimated and raped his country, as well as literally murdering all the best minds in his own "Red" Army (his words) and was nurturing an insane obsession for Adolph Hitler as he very much admired Hitler's dictatorial skills. (Read DARKNESS AT NOON. Or just pedestrian old Orwell.) So about the time Stalin was plotting Trotsky's Mexican assasination (finally accomplished in August 1940), he had set about signing the Non-Aggression Pact with Hitler and joined the Nazi cause. I can't remember if this was before or after he murdered his wife.

Anyway, after Stalin rendered his own country impotent in terms of agricultural production (the Ukraine slaughter) and literally made slaves of the "workers" in his insane five year plans, (Hollywood had the good sense to make fun of all this in Billy Wilder's NINOTCHCKA, 1939, and then MGM copied Paramount with their COMRADE X in 1940) Stalin had a lot of guys in a lot of bad uniforms fighting on the Nazi side. But not a lot of armaments.

(You see, communism doesn't work. It steals individual initiative. People don't work for the "collective good" -- people really only excel in their fields to keep bread on their own table. This is Marx's fatal flaw -- he could not redirect human nature. Sure it sounds "altruistic" to want to share with everyone. But what good is sharing what you earn when it is forced upon you by law or by the butt of a gun? Charity and the charitable spirit is only good if it is volunteered.)

So Stalin was forcing his people to die while building the grand subways and bridges and pretty ugly stuff that was sort of a lackluster, overblown Bauhaus/Machine age style of the Russian Avant Guarde. Meanwhile his military was torn up from top to bottom by his endless Show Trials as his top army brass was put before the firing squad.

Interestingly, all of this conspiracy and intrigue got Stalin addicted to espionage. It was said that Stalin would not read normal Intel for what it was; he shaped much of his strategic policy upon what his vast spy network whispered back to him. It was his good fortune that we did not have an intelligence service, per se, at the time. Only J Edgar, who was busy gangbusting domestically. While Stalin had the Cambridge spies who basically gave him everything he needed to know about what we were doing through our Brit alliance. And even here, he was able, for example, to place Alger Hiss and Whittaker Chambers (before Chambers turned, of course). Hiss proved invaluable when the war wound down because Hiss was FDR's assistant at the Yalta meetings! And since Hiss knew FDR was obsessed with Woodrow Wilson's failed vision of a League of Nations, Hiss ably assisted Stalin into giving the Russians the upper hand when the charter agreements for the United Nations was laid out. This is why he was awarded the Lenin medal as hero of the Soviet Union on his detour trip on the way back home from the meetings. Alger Hiss's treachery basically set up the world for a corrupt UN for the next century. (Yeah, I'd call him a Red.)

But let's go back to the issue of Russian strength after Stalin realized Hitler had doublecrossed him. That is when the US was suckered into helping Russia with tanks and food and everything it needed to get through to the end of the war. Stalin could not feed his people or his army, because in his communistic zeal, he killed all the farmers in the Ukraine because they were "capitaistic" and would not submit their wages to the Supreme Soviet or some other such deception.

So it was sheer numbers. Stalin was too darn insane to have manuevered a win over Hitler. It was Hitler's own insane hubris that brought him down, and anyway, Stalin modeled all of his POST war concentration camps (read a little Solzhenitsyn sometime!) on the Hitler model. Both men were fascist dictators. Both the third reich and the Soviet Union were socialist dictatorships. It is so funny how people, even today, want to separate out Hitler from Stalin because, ostensibly, they had different economic views. This is b.s. Hitler and Stalin had identical methods. The Nazi uniforms were just spiffier and better designed. Stalin actually murdered more people, by far, than Hitler did.

I don't buy your arguement that the Red Army would have eventually steamrollered over Hitler if we had not gotten into the act. We propped them up, if memory serves, on Churchill's pragmatic insistance and and they skated on FDR's blindness to see the post war threat the USSR would be to the free world.

The most interesting thing about this discussion is to imagine how the old USSR would have been different had Hitler won. The funny thing is, it would have been meet-the-new-boss-same-as-the-old-boss. Those poor Russians. Seventy years of "progressivism" and murder and their beautiful country is a hacking, chemical and nuclear wasted third world kleptocracy.

[skunk]

All this stuff about Hiss which seems to be central to your "argument", California, is highly debatable, to say the least. Is that the best you've got?

[pseudobrit]

(You see, communism doesn't work. It steals individual initiative. People don't work for the "collective good" -- people really only excel in their fields to keep bread on their own table. This is Marx's fatal flaw -- he could not redirect human nature. Sure it sounds "altruistic" to want to share with everyone. But what good is sharing what you earn when it is forced upon you by law or by the butt of a gun? Charity and the charitable spirit is only good if it is volunteered.)

Thanks for the cliché history lesson. I just need a whole paragraph expaining the American Civil War happened because of slavery, too, and we'll have our quota.

It was his good fortune that we did not have an intelligence service, per se, at the time. Only J Edgar, who was busy gangbusting domestically.

Ah, right, Hoover only used his resources for "gangbusting." Right...

Stalin could not feed his people or his army, because in his communistic zeal, he killed all the farmers in the Ukraine because they were "capitaistic" and would not submit their wages to the Supreme Soviet or some other such deception.

Stalin did indeed attack the Ukraine, ripening the people for revolt against the Soviets.

The problem was that Hitler's armies attacked them just as bad or worse, and thus lost any chance to capitalise on the fact that the locals were welcoming them as saviors.

So it was sheer numbers. Stalin was too darn insane to have manuevered a win over Hitler.

If it's down to sheer numbers, the Russians always win.

read a little Solzhenitsyn sometime!

I've read nearly everything he's written.

Both men were fascist dictators. Both the third reich and the Soviet Union were socialist dictatorships.

WTF? You can't be both fascist and socialist. Fascism precludes socialism.
The Nazi party was socialist in name only; in practice it was fascist.

It is so funny how people, even today, want to separate out Hitler from Stalin because, ostensibly, they had different economic views. This is b.s. Hitler and Stalin had identical methods. The Nazi uniforms were just spiffier and better designed. Stalin actually murdered more people, by far, than Hitler did.

20M v. 12M is the consensus. Mao was worse.

But identical methods of government do not make for identical nations. You can have a dictatorship with any type of economic system. You can even have a democratic communism.

I don't buy your arguement that the Red Army would have eventually steamrollered over Hitler if we had not gotten into the act.

You don't have to. It's simply postulation on my part. The difference is that I'll admit it while you present your case as some sort of universal truth.

[zimv20]

stalin's state of mind had nothing to do w/ the germans' inability to defeat russia.

hitler, playing "military strategist" and overruling his much more competent generals, made two fatal errors:

1. as p'brit pointed out, the german army subjugated people who would have otherwise happily fought alongside the germans

2. hitler commanded his military to simultaneously take 3 russian cities, instead of consolidating forces to take moscow. his plan almost worked. but the russian winter was unusually harsh and almost wasn't good enough.

[Sayhey]

I'm nominating this thread for the Hall of Shame under the category "Most Egregious Misuse of Historical Myths to Move a Thread Off Topic." Folks, are we really going to debate Stalin here? Did we suddenly get diverted into a John Birch Society's Condensed Propaganda Course?

The topic is, as I understand it, the American Bar Association and its condemnation of the Bush administration's treatment of prisoners. So unless we are comparing Stalinist torture techniques to those currently used at Abu Ghraib (http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact), Guantanamo, or other US controlled detention facilities, then distortions of 1930's European and US history are, in my humble opinion, off topic. For the record, I'm willing to stipulate that any such comparisons would be grossly unfair and offensive. Hitler and Stalin have Bush beat on the question of torture, although that may define the phrase "damning with faint praise."

As to the real importance of the thread, we have a President who has earned the condemnation of the largest and most influential legal organization in the US. They maybe sticklers for little things like the rights of detainees, but it is only because of a rather important principle called the "rule of law." When we are fighting wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, ostensibly in order to help bring this principle to those nations, it would seem it might be necessary to abide by it as well. Perhaps we should hold our President to that idea as something about which he should be consistent. Hmmm... what a thought!

[solvs]

Our efforts to lead this thread back on topic fail because the opposing side has no viable viewpoint, other than to go off on how great the US is and everybody else sucks.

Unfortunetly, people seem to think that because the other side isn't playing fair, we get to bend the rules... and it's ok because 50 years ago one of our allies was almost as bad as our enemy. The simple fact is that there are a lot of problems with the way we are doing things, which is bound to happen with poor planning and communication. Rather than accept the mistakes and learn to correct them, the current administration seems more to want to continue to divert attention until it's faced with the facts and can't any longer. Then it calls whoever opposes it unpatriotic. Arabs, Liberals, the French.

Scapegoating, if you will. All the while, things like this continue to happen and we are told to look the other way because at least we're better than the alternative. I think California has proven that pretty well.

[California]

To solvs and "sayhey" 'specially

I wasn't "offtopic" I have only been trying to jog your collective memories of times when force was needed, neccessary and IMPORTANT to the survival of the world -- by detailing the evil of Stalinism, Marxism, Hitlerism and the problems we still face in the fallout of the cold war in this NEW war on terror.

We are AT WAR. But it is more of the fearful war that JFK foresaw -- of guerrilla tactics and terrorism. That's why JFK went after Castro with a vengeneance in his Operation Mongoose -- he saw the nightmare of terrorism on the horizon as conventional war with conventional warzones would be a thing of the past.

And all my historical anecdotes are meant to fill in what we all DIDN'T learn in high school -- how, how for example, that Lenin was the architect of modern terrorism. How the USSR trained the Palestinians and the PLO before the Munich Olympics for their terrorist attacks, etc. And anyone who doesn't know that Saddam the "novelist" imitated Stalin's terrorist tactics as he slaughtered and terrorized his own people, even down to adopting old Joe's ugly flopping moustache, doesn't know history.

Do I really have to defend using history as method of predicting the future or illuminating the present? Has human nature really changed in fifty years? I don't think so.

By discussing the Nazis I am illuminating someone most agree was a well defined enemy -- and nazi soldiers were indeed enemy combatants!

BTW I defy anyone to describe in logistical terms the difference between fascism and "the dictatorship of the proletariat". Answer: there is no difference. Both are dictatorships who ruled with an iron fist.

Oh and my unanswered question about political incorrectness? To be "politically incorrect" was a crime in the soviet slave bloc, in North Vietnam or North Korea or China. Still is in those latter countries. You are thrown in jail for your beliefs against the state because you don't believe in the socialistic way to perfection -- if you don't believe in the new communist Man -- you are declared to be politically incorrect. Which is a nice and academic sounding translation for a criminal offense that landed many people in torture cells. It is frighteningly ironic that the west has adopted this term without understanding its bitter origin.

Where was I? Oh yeah, I was defending my use of known enemies of the civilized world to better illustrate how we need to think about the war on terror.

But then I got berated for scaring up the past and somehow fingerpointing at problems outside of the oh so arrogant, ugly, and corrupt United States.

We've got an enemy, guys. It's radical Islam. We are at war. It is right to compare former wars and former tactics and former enemies to better see what we are doing now. Al Queda doesn't care about us. They want us dead. We are the infidels. I agree that the US has NOT done it all perfectly. But I won't agree that we shouldn't be at war-- they attacked us.

Our tactics and intelligence may be lacking -- but what is the alternative? What is YOUR policy on Iraq and Al Queda? Instead of criticizing US policy for its crude but honorable intent, what would YOU DO about those people at Gitmo? Me bringing up FDR is totally logical because he was the last prez to hold enemy combatants. And my relatives remember the Germans being held in camps in WI back in WWII. Was FDR wrong? Is the US wrong to hold these questionable non citizens at Gitmo? What would you all do in this era of dirty bombs and shoe bombs and 9/11 fears?

I really want intelligent, non mud slinging discussion and debate. And again my motive for bringing up the past was not to deflect honest criticism of the US -- but to illustrate what true evil has done in the past so to better afix our minds to what it is capable of now. Unfortunately, what I have read here is that the anti US feeling takes the place of a natural instinct to fear and fight -- and outthink -- a known enemy.

And I guess that also bugs me when I remember the unsung heros of WWII, etc. When I think about those British codebreakers, mostly poorly paid volunteers with a mind for math -- who broke the Enigma codes. Where are those mental soldiers for the West now? (Hint: I think they would logically be on a Macintosh discussion board.) Where are the people who volunteered to wrap bandages for the wounded at the Red CRoss? We live in a culture when men and women who volunteer to put their lives on the line for the sake of our lifestyles and internet and convertibles -- are lambasted for their dumb patriotism. That goodlooking football player who volunteered for spec forces in Afghanistan and was killed, Pat Someone, was made fun of by the press! Despicable. We rationalize the truth of the situation the world is in by debating nuances of how we should treat non citizens in a time of war when we have suspicions about them.

Where are the heros of today? Are they lurking on this discussion board? I know you all are smart enough -- are you brave enough to see that we are at war and need to out-strategize the enemy? Geez, think of all the brain cells sizzled on videogames -- how come these people can't figure out how to route Al Queda? or at least, how to figure out what to do at Gitmo?

To get back to the topic, I guess I think all those brains at the ABA are spinning their wheels trying to nail the military at Gitmo instead of finding a money trail to Bin Laden. Or unraveling the Iraq oil for food UN scandal.



Here's an ariticle for you all:

Al Qaeda leader identified in 'dirty bomb' plot

A top al Qaeda cell leader spotted in Mexico and Canada has been identified as an active player in a scheme to obtain radioactive materials for a so-called "dirty bomb" that could be smuggled into the United States, federal authorities said.
****Adnan G. El Shukrijumah, who worshipped at the same South Florida mosque as Jose Padilla — now being held as an enemy combatant in a plot to detonate a "dirty bomb" — has attempted unsuccessfully to enter the United States using phony passports, authorities said.
****The al Qaeda leader reportedly was observed last year during a trip to Canada, where authorities suspect he posed as a student at McMaster University in Hamilton, Ontario. An FBI informant told authorities the terrorist leader was seeking material to build a dirty bomb — a conventional explosive laced with radioactive material.
****McMaster University has a five-megawatt research reactor, whose uranium-based fuel rods come from the United States. Canadian officials have denied any security breach of the McMaster facility.
****Authorities said El Shukrijumah lived in the same South Florida area as Padilla and that the two worshipped at the Darul Aloom mosque. It is not clear whether they knew each other, but authorities said their names surfaced during the interrogation of captured senior al Qaeda organizer Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, one of Osama bin Laden's closest advisers.
****Mohammed has been called a mastermind of the September 11 attacks.
****Meanwhile, a seven-count indictment unsealed yesterday in Boston accused a British man of conspiring with Richard C. Reid to use shoe bombs to blow up airplanes. Saajid Badat, 25, was charged with attempted murder and trying to destroy an aircraft. The indictment said bomb components similar to Reid's were found at his home.
****El Shukrijumah, for whom the State Department has offered a $5 million reward, is being sought for questioning by the FBI in connection with terrorist threats against the United States. He was named in a March 2003 material-witness arrest warrant by prosecutors in Northern Virginia, where U.S. Attorney Paul J. McNulty said he is sought as a potential terrorism threat.
****Known to law enforcement officials as the "diminutive terrorist" because of his 5-foot-4-inch stature, El Shukrijumah also is believed by authorities to have met with alien smugglers in Mexico and Honduras, seeking help in bringing al Qaeda members illegally into the United States.
****Authorities said those meetings involved members of the Mara Salvatrucha gang, which U.S. immigration officials said has smuggled hundreds of Central and South Americans — mostly gang members — into the United States.
****They said El Shukrijumah was spotted in July in Tegucigalpa, Honduras, meeting with leaders of the gang, which has been tied to alien, drug and weapons smuggling, along with numerous killings, robberies, burglaries, carjackings, extortions, rapes and aggravated assaults — including at least seven killings in Virginia.
****Padilla, a Muslim convert also known as Abdullah al Muhajir, was arrested by FBI agents on a material witness warrant in May 2002 at Chicago's O'Hare International Airport after a flight from Pakistan. He was carrying $10,000 in U.S. currency from his al Qaeda handlers.
****El Shukrijumah also was friends in Florida with Imran Mandhai, one of two college students convicted of conspiring unsuccessfully to bomb electrical stations, a National Guard armory, Jewish businesses and Mount Rushmore.
****Authorities said El Shukrijumah also is believed to have taken part in or directed surveillance efforts by al Qaeda members of the financial districts in New York — which led this summer to an increase in the terror alert level from Code Yellow to Code Orange in New York City, Washington D.C., and Newark, N.J.
****They said there were specific threats against the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund in the District, the Prudential Building in Newark, and Citigroup and the Stock Exchange in New York City.
****An FBI bulletin in March said El Shukrijumah was born in Saudi Arabia, although the Saudi government has denied that he is a Saudi citizen.
****

[takao]

yeah comparing the terrorists with the german forces of WW2 (try to make a difference between political leaders and ordinary soldiers next time... "nazis" is the word for members of the political party NSDAP and their supporters... )

germany had a full scale war industry,thousands of airplanes + tanks, a navy and millions of _uniformed_ soldiers


terror is a 'tactic' ... not a country... you know how your fine example of the "nazis" called the partisan groups of france, eastern europe,yugoslavia and what was their unsuccesfull tactic against them ? ..i guess you can figure that out on yourself

explain the word "hitlerism" to me, i've never heard it before...


and your volunteer thing: yawn...

and again i suggest a history lesson about the events happening prior WW2 (prior to 1st sept. 1939 for you) in germany and austria... and after that you would change your rethoric fast ...

perhaps less talking about 'the red danger' and more talking about the dangers of democracy combined with rethorics and dangerous elitist thinking....

[solvs]

We've got an enemy, guys. It's radical Islam. We are at war. It is right to compare former wars and former tactics and former enemies to better see what we are doing now. Al Queda doesn't care about us. They want us dead. We are the infidels. I agree that the US has NOT done it all perfectly. But I won't agree that we shouldn't be at war-- they attacked us.
We were attacked by Al-Qaida, not Iraq. Not Muslims. Terrorists are to Islam, as KKK is to Christianity. All brown people are not the same. We had Bin Laden... you know, the guy really responsible for 9/11 (and one of our former CIA operatives BTW)... and we lost him because we were too distracted elsewhere. Listen to the debates, Kerry points out what few (even the "Liberal media") have. Bin Laden got away because we pulled troops from where they should have been, where the real terrorists were, to send them to Iraq. And he's still on the loose.

No one argues that Saddam was a bad guy. Kerry even admits that. But he was not a direct threat as much as others. And now that we are in Iraq, guarding the oil, doing exactly what Bin Laden said we would, they have even more fuel (no pun intended) for the fire against us. The situation is WORSE now. Ask anyone with a friend or family member over there, they'll tell you the real story. How bad it is. We should be at war, to protect ourselves against the enemy. Unfortunetly, we are making it worse, not better. We should be at war, but we are going about it all wrong. That's the problem.

Do you feel safer? Cuz I don't.

We live in a culture when men and women who volunteer to put their lives on the line for the sake of our lifestyles and internet and convertibles -- are lambasted for their dumb patriotism. That goodlooking football player who volunteered for spec forces in Afghanistan and was killed, Pat Someone, was made fun of by the press! Despicable. We rationalize the truth of the situation the world is in by debating nuances of how we should treat non citizens in a time of war when we have suspicions about them.
Non-citizens? His name was Pat Tillman. You might want to take 2 seconds to look up his name if you're going to talk about how no one appreciates him. No one that I know said anything bad about him. If they did, I would have been just as angry. He was a hero, because he could have had a cushy life, but instead he stood up and fought (and died) for what he believed in. Why am I against the troops, when I want to bring them (including my best friend, in Iraq right now BTW) home safely so more of them don't die against insurmountable odds?

How is the Bush administration for the troops, when he sent them to the wrong place, unprepared, under false pretenses, with no exit strategy? While he cuts their healthcare and benefits and talks about how we are letting them down by wanting answers to obvious questions that have not been raised enough? The money is not going to where it should be and Bush is talking about tax cuts for the wealthy. When something goes wrong, am I to look the other way?

Suddenly, if I ask questions, I'm branded a Liberal/unpatriotic/anti-American/French. Whatever they want to use in their hate mongering against true freedom. Franklin and Jefferson both made points about not giving up basic freedoms for temporary safety. To always question the government if you love this country. The US governement does not equal the US. It's ok to criticize Clinton, but criticize Bush and I'm un-American. I don't think so. I hate to play the Nazi card, but it's the same tactics. Fear, uncertainty, doubt. Blame those who are different. And if you disagree, you are a traitor. The greatest thing about this country is that you can love it and yet disagree with it at the same time. I criticize to make it better so these things don't keep happening.

We have to live in this world with all those other countries. And you can't be isolationists and conquerors. We have to be better than them, and they don't see that we are. We are supposed to treat prisoners and suspects according to the rules of engagements because we are supposed to be the good guys. So that when we are at war, people aren't treated like the terrorists treat people. Just because they don't follow the rules, neither should we? Then we're no better than they are, are we?

And that is what Bush supporters are forgetting.

[Sayhey]

To solvs and "sayhey" 'specially

I wasn't "offtopic" I have only been trying to jog your collective memories of times when force was needed, neccessary and IMPORTANT to the survival of the world -- by detailing the evil of Stalinism, Marxism, Hitlerism and the problems we still face in the fallout of the cold war in this NEW war on terror.

California,

A few observations. When you move from a discussion of the American Bar Association's condemnation of torture and mistreatment of detainees under US control to Hitler, Stalin, and Marx you are, by any accepted definition of the term, off topic. As a rule of thumb, if one raises Hitler and the Nazis in an argument not related to mid twentieth century European history, it only serves as a clue to how desperate a poster has become to change the subject.

If you want to have such discussions, then I would recommend you start a new thread with your Ayn Randesque view of the 1930s and 40s as the topic. There are many regular posters here who could help you, if they wish to spend the time, with some of your mistaken views of the time period.

Again the topic of this thread is the fact the largest legal organization in the United States felt it necessary to condemn the actions of a setting President on something so fundamental as the right of detainees to be free from torture. In case you missed the revelations at Abu Ghraib, in my last post I provided a link to Seymour Hersh's article of last May. In order to jog your memory let me quote a small section of that article.

A fifty-three-page report, obtained by The New Yorker, written by Major General Antonio M. Taguba and not meant for public release, was completed in late February. Its conclusions about the institutional failures of the Army prison system were devastating. Specifically, Taguba found that between October and December of 2003 there were numerous instances of “sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses” at Abu Ghraib.

New Yorker (http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact)

Of course, we have learned much since last May. We now know that the justice department encouraged legal opinions looking for ways in which torture could be used by the United States. We also know that from the beginning of the war in Afghanistan the Bush administration has tried to deny any detainees the protection of the Geneva Conventions. Are these simple facts worthy of discussion without reference to Stalin and Hitler? I think so.

[Sayhey]

double post -- sorry

[IJ Reilly]

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." -- Godwin's Law

More (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law)

[blackfox]

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." -- Godwin's Law

More (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law)
fascinating...

[pseudobrit]

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." -- Godwin's Law

More (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law)

May as well make it all of WWII.

For so many, that's the last time we had a truly black-vs-white good-vs-evil conflict, so they must return to the comfort of its certainty and righteousness.

And of course, we (good, white) won the righteous battle comfortably and singlehandedly.

[solvs]

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." -- Godwin's Law

More (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law)
Hey, she started it. ;) :p

[takao]

For so many, that's the last time we had a truly black-vs-white good-vs-evil conflict, so they must return to the comfort of its certainty and righteousness.

And of course, we (good, white) won the righteous battle comfortably and singlehandedly.

well at least that's not so easy for everyone ;)

with having (evil,black) as a record, any discussion about WW2 looks very different ... (not only movies :rolleyes: )

[Sayhey]

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." -- Godwin's Law

More (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law)

Thanks IJ, I knew of the idea but was unaware it had been formulate into a law. I love the many corollaries to Godwin's law.

[solvs]

Where'd she go? This was just getting fun.

[California]

Godwin's law -- very funny!

Didn't say that any of you had put down Pat Tillman. Was just saying that media did. Geez louise -- growing very fond of you all. Start a better thread someone -- outside of the fact that I've held back the info that a very close relative was actually down at Gitmo last year, I'm over it. Solvs or psuedobrit or sayhey or someone -- start a better discussion!

[pseudobrit]

Didn't say that any of you had put down Pat Tillman. Was just saying that media did.

I didn't see that happen at all. If anything I thought they gushed over him a little too much. Do you have a source for that claim?

outside of the fact that I've held back the info that a very close relative was actually down at Gitmo last year, I'm over it.

I would assume they weren't being held in Guantanamo as prisoner.

Please tell me it was that same grandfather who was in the War of 1812.

[solvs]

Didn't say that any of you had put down Pat Tillman. Was just saying that media did.
Show me one place that said anything negative about him, and I will be disgusted in them just as much. We're not all whiny, Liberal, vetran haters. Some of us also have friends/family over there right now as well. I will bet you cannot find a legitimate place that said anything negative about him.

On topic, some of our people have done something wrong and should be held accountable for it, no matter how many of their people wrong us. We are supposed to be the good guys, following the rules of engagement and playing fair, because that's what the good guys do no matter how much the bad guys cheat. We hold our own accountable so they don't become rogues like the oppositions' people. Where does the buck stop? Why is the blame just being passed around? That is the subject we were discussing.

If you want to discuss something else, there are plenty of other topics here (http://forums.macrumors.com/forumdisplay.php?f=47). Bring you anecdotes and rhetoric, and be prepared to fight. ;)

Edit: as for what set me off -

they are not US citizens
Then that means they must not have any rights, right?