Kerry supports terrorism.

[Leo Hubbard]

I know people on here don't like sources from right wing sources, I did my best to trace the sources sources.

This story has been out there for awhile....but now some members of Congress are jumping in the fray and calling attention to it. Three members of Congress from Florida held a press conference accusing The Poodle's keeper of financing Fidel Castro's Internet network. The connection goes like this.

Tereeeeeza's foundation, The Heinz Endowments, has given $8.1 million over the last 10 years to the Tides Foundation and the Tides Center. Those organizations have, in turn, financed everything from Islamic terrorists and groups like the Institute for Global Communications, which financed the Internet network for Cuba.

Tides also supports the Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR), which pretends to be a Muslim civil rights group, but is really has ties to the Islamic terrorist organization Hamas. CAIR seems to spend most of its time in the US making sure that nobody says anything negative about the peaceful and loving religion of Islam.

These Tides organizations have long been recognized as a conduit from wealthy individuals and groups to causes that might not enjoy widespread popular support with the American public. You make a donation to the Tides Foundation or the Tides center, as Teresa's foundations have done; that money gets spent on causes not popular with rank and file Americans, and you get to say that there's no proof that any of your money was spent on that particular project ... that you donated it for some other purpose.

Even though the left-leaning media will do their best to shelter Tereeeeza and blow this off, no matter how you slice it, money went from her to an organization which supports these groups.

http://boortz.com/nuze/200408/08112004.html#tereeeeza
Yes I've read the news report that states that Boortz is full of crap on this, but I didn't believe that left wing rag and did further research.
Boortz probably got his information from Frontpage. Frontpage in turn provided embeded links in their story to their sources and tied it all together. I took the time to include all the sub links that provide additional or coroborating information to the report.

With Matt Drudge’s recent revelation (http://www.drudgereport.com/mattjk1.htm) that John Kerry is as faithful to his second wife as he was to his old Vietnam “brothers, (http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnkerry.com/)” the senator’s presidential campaign may depend more than ever on the actions of his wife, Teresa Heinz Kerry. While the mainstream media has thus far overlooked the alleged infidelity, media outlets have also overlooked a far more important story: The former Mrs. John Heinz is also in bed – financially – with the radical Left.

Teresa Heinz Kerry has financed the secretive Tides Foundation to the tune of more than $4 million over the years. The Tides Foundation, a “charity” established in 1976 by antiwar leftist activist Drummond Pike, distributes millions of dollars in grants every year to political organizations advocating far-Left causes. The Tides Foundation and its closely allied Tides Center, which was spun off from the Foundation in 1996 but run by Drummond Pike, distributed nearly $66 million in grants in 2002 alone. In all, Tides has distributed more than $300 million for the Left. These funds went to rabid antiwar demonstrators, anti-trade demonstrators, domestic Islamist organizations, pro-terrorists legal groups, environmentalists, abortion partisans, extremist homosexual activists and open borders advocates. (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=11838)

During the years 1995-2001, the Howard Heinz Endowment, which Heinz Kerry chairs, gave Tides more than $4.3 million. The combined Heinz Endowments (composed of the Howard Heinz Endowment and the Vira I. Heinz Endowment) donated $1.6 million to establish the Tides Center for Western Pennsylvania, a Pittsburgh office of the San Francisco-based Tides Center. Since that time, the local branch has tirelessly pushed an anti-business agenda in the name of “preserving the environment.” However, it is the Tides Foundation’s national organization whose connections are most disconcerting.

The Tides Foundation is a major source of revenue for some of the most extreme groups on the Left. Tides allows donors to anonymously contribute money to a host of causes; the donor simply makes the check out to Tides and instructs the Foundation where to forward the money. Tides does so. The Tides Center will even manage a left-wing project, for a nominal fee. Drummond Pike told The Chronicle of Philanthropy (http://www.activistcash.com/org_detail.cfm?ORG_ID=225), “Anonymity is very important to most of the people we work with.” That becomes understandable when one views the list of Tides grant recipients. And who are the beneficiaries of this money?

Senator John F. Kerry has gone far with his nuanced view of Operation Iraqi Freedom (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=12079). He voted for the war resolution but specified a litany of conditions the Bush administration must meet before he would support combat, then proceeded to vote against funding troops already in harm’s way – then claimed he had always supported the president when Saddam Hussein was captured. The grant recipients of the Tides Foundation, to which Kerry’s wife has steered millions of dollars in “charitable” funds, understand no such nuance.

Tides established the Iraq Peace Fund and the Peace Strategies Fund to fund the antiwar movement (http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=6055). These projects fueled such hysterical protest organizations as MoveOn.org, the website that recently featured two separate commercials portraying George W. Bush as Adolf Hitler. (Howard Dean, not Kerry, won MoveOn.org’s “virtual primary.”)

The antiwar movement often boasted that MoveOn.org and the radical website Indymedia provided them “alternate media coverage.” Indymedia, an enormous news and events bulletin board with local pages in most of the world’s major cities, provided a vital link for radical activists often with violent agendas to coordinate their protests. Indymedia received $376,000 from the Tides Foundation.

Continued on next post.

[Leo Hubbard]

The Institute for Global Communications (http://www.igc.org/) is another leftist communications facilitator that received Tides grant money. IGC, which during the 1990s was the leading provider of web technology to the radical Left, links to “recommended sites” such as the War Resisters League (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=7617) (a group whose purpose is enabling peaceniks to refuse to pay taxes) and the leftist American Friends Service Committee (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=8215). Most disturbing is the link to Ramsey Clark’s International Action Center, which has supported Slobodan Milosevic and North Korean strongman Kim Jong-Il (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=5802). The IAC is the force behind International ANSWER (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=3181), which sponsored the major antiwar (and anti-Bush) rallies before the invasion of Iraq. When ANSWER was outed as a Communist organization, United for Peace and Justice (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=6024), headed by longtime Communist Party member Leslie Cagan was created as a "moderate" alternative. UFPJ is also a Tides grant recipient.The Tides-funded “A Better Way Project,” which opposed war in Iraq, also coordinated efforts of United for Peace and Justice and the Win Without War Coalition. The celebrity-laden Win Without War Coalition, along with the Bill Moyers-funded Florence and John Schumann Foundation, (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=7355) ran full-page ads in the New York Times opposing the War on Terrorism. This will not be the last overlapping of far-Left causes.

Immediately after 9/11, Tides formed a “9/11 Fund” to advocate a “peaceful national response (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=7835)” to the opening salvos of war. Part of the half-million dollars in grants the 9/11 Fund dispersed went to the New York Gay and Lesbian Anti-Violence Project to protect the rights of homosexual Arabs. The Foundation replaced the 9/11 Fund with the “Democratic Justice Fund,” which was established with the aid of George Soros’ Open Society Institute. (Currency speculator and pro-drug advocate Soros is, like Teresa Heinz Kerry, a major contributor to Tides, having donated more than $7 million.) The Democratic Justice Fund seeks to ease restrictions on Muslim immigration to the United States, particularly from countries designated by the State Department as “terrorist nations.”

Tides has also given grant money to the Council for American Islamic Relations. Ostensibly a “Muslim civil rights group,” CAIR is in fact one of the leading anti-anti-terrorism organizations within the Wahhabi Lobby (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=8902), with links to Hamas. CAIR regularly opposes and demonizes American efforts to fight terrorism, claiming, for instance, that Homeland Security measures are responsible for an undocumented surge in “hate crimes.” (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=9021)

yes the links lead to other frontpage news stories which in turn leads to their sources. You have to really be into this to follow this all. I'm not including embedded links any longer read the story yourself to see them. http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=12187http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=12187


CAIR officials have reason to fight Bush’s anti-terrorism measures: all too many CAIR officials are on the record supporting terrorism. CAIR Executive Director Nihad Awad (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=9981) openly stated in 1994, “I am a supporter of the Hamas movement.” Community Affairs Director Bassem K. Khafagi has been arrested for visa and bank fraud. Randall Royer, a Communications Specialist and Civil Rights Coordinator at CAIR, was arrested along with a group of Islamic radicals in Virginia for allegedly planning jihad (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=8885). CAIR has defended terrorist “charities” (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=9188) shut down by the Bush administration. Every few months some CAIR campus official (http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/Printable.asp?ID=6690) is arrested for aiding and abetting terrorism.

The Tides Foundation has funded a number of the pillars of the radical legal establishment. Chief among these is the National Lawyers Guild (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=7494), which began as a Commnist front organization and is proud of its lineage. At its recent convention last October, the concluding speaker was Lynne Stewart (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=4764), an indicted terrorist NLG lawyer (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=8414) arrested for helping her client – convicted 1993 World Trade Center bombing mastermind Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman – communicate with his terrorist cells in Egypt. In her speech, Stewart (http://www.nlg.org/members/convention/stewart.html) said she and her NLG comrades were carrying on a proud tradition of their forebears, past and present:

And modern heroes, dare I mention? Ho and Mao and Lenin, Fidel and Nelson Mandela and John Brown, Che Guevara who reminds us, “At the risk of seeming ridiculous, let me say that the true revolutionary is guided by a great feeling of love.” Our quests like theirs are to shake the very foundations of the continents.

More recently, the NLG has endorsed the March 20 call to End Colonial Occupation (http://www.internationalanswer.org/campaigns/m20/index.html) from Iraq to Palestine & Everywhere” organized by International ANSWER, and has posted a petition for “Post-Conviction Relief” for convicted cop-killer Mumia Abu-Jamal. (http://www.nlg.org/news/statements/MAJ_Petition_for_Postconviction_Relief.pdf)

Tides’ Peace Strategies Fund has funneled money to the Center for Constitutional Rights. (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?id=2155) The CCR was stablished by Sixties radical William Kunstler, defender of the Chicago 8, and Arthur Kinoy. The two also had plans to establish a new Communist Party (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=1006). Executive Director Ron Daniels has been honored by the Communist Party USA for his work (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=4488). Daniels also has a long and cordial relationship with racist, anti-Semitic “poet laureate” Amiri Baraka. Since 9/11, CCR has channeled its efforts into fighting every effective Homeland Security measure. They have opposed increasing the government’s ability to wiretap Islamists suspected of plotting terrorism and moaned the sequestering of terrorist detainees at Guantanamo Bay was an unexcusable form of “racial profiling.” CCR President Michael Ratner has portrayed American soldiers as the offenders (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=2155), guilty of 9/11 by their Middle East policy and guilty of keeping Islamist killers “shackled, hooded and sedated during the 25 hour flight from Afghanistan.” CCR has also defended Lynne Stewart’s “innocence” in aiding Sheikh Rahman’s Islamic Jihad.

Tides also funds the Alliance for Justice, a group dedicated to stopping Bush judicial appointees (a cause John Kerry can agree wholeheartedly endorse). Other Tides grants have gone to the Lawyers Committee for Civil Rights and the Asian Law Caucus.

The Tides Foundation has funded the Ruckus Society, a group of anarchist Greens who rioted and looted Seattle during the 1999 World Trade Organization riots. The Tides Center of Western Pennsylvania, established in Pittsburgh with Heinz Family funds, advocates for environmentalist measures that have helped put holes in the Rust Belt’s economy.

Tides money has also squashed free speech. Thanks to complaints generated by the Tides-funded Environmental Working Group, ABC cancelled a John Stossel piece exposing the misleading nature of environmental advocacy in public elementary schools.

Greenpeace is a well-known Tides grant recipient. Greenpeace is best known for its illegal actions, endangering humans in order to make a point about the environment. Tides gave Greenpeace a quarter of a million dollars over ten years.

Lest one think only Tides’ money is going to radicals, not funds directly controlled by Teresa Heinz Kerry, remember that Heinz money has repeatedly found its way to the Earth Island Institute. On September 14, 2001, the Institute’s website bore the headline “U.S. Responds to Terrorist Attacks with Self-Righteous Arrogance.”

Heinz family philanthropic funds have also had some dubious effects on the presidential race. The League of Conservation Voters has recently endorsed John Kerry’s presidential campaign. The Heinz Family Foundation gave LCV at least $20,000 and donated almost $250,000 to a member of the LCV board.


http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=12187
[edit] added more embeded links.

[mouchoir]

I know people on here don't like sources from right wing sources, I did my best to trace the sources sources.

These funds went to rabid antiwar demonstrators, anti-trade demonstrators, domestic Islamist organizations, pro-terrorists legal groups, environmentalists, abortion partisans, extremist homosexual activists and open borders advocates.

Firstly, I find it hard to take an article seriously that resorts to using 'tereeeeeza' several , not the actual name of the person they're focusing on.

What are the names of these organisations above? They all sound perfectly reasonable to me.

Also, what do you have to do to be labled an 'extreme homosexual activist'?

mooooooooooooooooooooshoir

[Leo Hubbard]

Perhaps this circular rotation of cash and endorsements should not surprise anyone. The grant-making institutions of the Left and their feverish recipients ultimately form an amorphous, leftist entity. One never needs to search very far to find connections between a leftist foundation and extreme advocacy groups. Teresa Heinz Kerry, George Soros, Bill Moyers and the Ford Foundation fund the Tides Foundation/Center; Tides funds the National Lawyers Guild, CAIR, MoveOn.org and United for Peace and Justice; those organizations then unite in fluid coalitions to protest against their common political enemies (Republicans). Ultimately, their representatives end up on Bill Moyers' PBS programs or active within the Democratic campaigns of their fundraisers. Between now and the election, these organizations will run constant interference for the Democratic presidential nominee (presumably Kerry himself): they will march en masse against the Bush administration again and again; they will file more lawsuits against the administration's Homeland Security measures, decry any effective response to terrorism, claim the United States is guilty of slaughtering Iraqi civilians and petition leftist judges to open America's borders to Islamist terrorists. After they help his election, President Kerry will be indebted to them. And then they will insist he begin implementing their political agenda.

Moreover, they will have a close ally in the East Wing of the White House, an ally more intimately tied to them than she is to her (second) husband. (She only adopted his last name and political party registration less than 18 months ago. “Politically, it's going to be Heinz Kerry,” she recently said. “But I don't give a sh-t, you know?”) Teresa Heinz Kerry will play a potent role in saving her second husband’s presidential campaign now – as Hillary Clinton did in 1992, and again during her husband’s impeachment. Like Hillary, in return for her service, Heinz may demand a place at the table for her pet causes. Caveat emptor.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=12187

All these left wing organizations seem to be interlocked and prop each other up all in the persuit of socialization or even in some cases communism. And apparently the Kerry's back up these organizations.

[Leo Hubbard]

Firstly, I find it hard to take an article seriously that resorts to using 'tereeeeeza' several , not the actual name of the person they're focusing on.

What are the names of these organisations above? They all sound perfectly reasonable to me.

Also, what do you have to do to be labled an 'extreme homosexual activist'?

mooooooooooooooooooooshoir
Those are all embeded links click on them and find out.

[mouchoir]

Those are all embeded links click on them and find out.

ok, read the link to that paragraph, and it only talks of open borders. No mention of the other organisations.

So, who are they?

[Leo Hubbard]

ok, read the link to that paragraph, and it only talks of open borders. No mention of the other organisations.

So, who are they?
I took another look, the link refers to a different item.

These funds went to rabid antiwar demonstrators, anti-trade demonstrators, domestic Islamist organizations, pro-terrorists legal groups, environmentalists, abortion partisans, extremist homosexual activists and open borders advocates.

It doesn't provide a link for extremist homosexual activists. That is a minor minute part of the entire story and is only relative by the fact that some of those funds from Tide went there. Personally I could care less who they are being the primary purpose for me posting this is that Heinz foundation is funding terrorist organizations.

My guess is extremist homosexual activists are activists who wish to change the country so that homosexuality is considered as normal as hetrosexuality. That their marriages are recognized, that they can walk down the street holding hands without being stared at, etc. Sorry it aint normal, if it were normal it would already be normal. Yeah I know circular logic. Same logic used on here for keeping cuss words off of the tv. I am not interested in arguing the homosexual agenda. I am a flip flopper myself when it comes to this issue. Logically I can come to one conclusion while my emotions and just makes me go eewwwwww when I think about it.

[yellow]

Your bigoted views are what gives the right wing a bad name and drives a wedge between the partisan parties. If you don't like it, don't be gay. Otherwise, learn to deal with it. I'm pretty sure it's not going to go away just because right wingers cry about it and pray to Jebus.

[IJ Reilly]

Moderators, please wasteland this thread.

[LeeTom]

Voltron!

[mouchoir]

Every cause listed sounds pretty reasonable to me, and I'm glad someone is giving money to them.

Why shouldn't cuba have the internet? This way they can get their news from other sources than the left wing bias newspapers they're used to.

I'm pro-abortion.

I've no issues with homosexuality.

I like the enviroment.

Sheesh, what's their address – maybe I qualify for a grant.

[takao]

"Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship... voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."
Hermann Goering, From a conversation with psychologist Gustave Gilbert while jailed at Nuremburg on the evening of 18 April 1946, documented in Gilbert's book "Nuremburg Diary."

please do we have to go through this discussion _again_ ?
please wasteland

[mischief]

The revolution will not be Televised.

More to the point:

Manifest destiny, White Man's Burden, etc....

All of these pleasant LIES are the precursors to your line of thinking Leo. Please reconsider your mode of belief. Without compassion you are no better than a rabid dog. If Policy and Belief never rise above Sociopathy how can we call ourselves a Society or ever in good consience call ourselves Faithful?

Compassion and Hope are the cornerstones of society Leo. Not elitism and fear.

[Taft]

I know people on here don't like sources from right wing sources, I did my best to trace the sources sources.

http://boortz.com/nuze/200408/08112004.html#tereeeeza
Yes I've read the news report that states that Boortz is full of crap on this, but I didn't believe that left wing rag and did further research.
Boortz probably got his information from Frontpage. Frontpage in turn provided embeded links in their story to their sources and tied it all together. I took the time to include all the sub links that provide additional or coroborating information to the report.

Continued on next post.

This is such complete crap.

Not one of the organizations that the foundation (not Tereeeeeza herself, mind you) gave money to has been declared a terrorist organization. In fact, only one (CAIR) is even ACCUSED of having terrorist ties. Even in that case, the articles you provide give NO documentation of these alleged ties.

What these "sources" (I am really using that term loosely) are really saying is that the foundation gives money to organizations whose positions the extreme right wing disagrees with. The extreme right doesn't like supporting Muslims in this country when attacked by small minded bigots. These organizations do.

To takes these half truths, baseless accusations, and the trail of money to left-wing organizations and say "Kerry supports terrorism" is deceipt, pure and simple.

You should be ashamed.

Taft

[davecuse]

Why is Leo Hubbard/SlyTron/Voltron/Slyhunter still here? Honestly you've been banned as many times for a reason, why not just accept it and take your comments elsewhere?

[Leo Hubbard]

Every cause listed sounds pretty reasonable to me, and I'm glad someone is giving money to them.

Why shouldn't cuba have the internet? This way they can get their news from other sources than the left wing bias newspapers they're used to.

I'm pro-abortion.

I've no issues with homosexuality.

I like the enviroment.

Sheesh, what's their address – maybe I qualify for a grant.

War Resisters League (a group whose purpose is enabling peaceniks to refuse to pay taxes) and the leftist American Friends Service Committee. Most disturbing is the link to Ramsey Clark’s International Action Center, which has supported Slobodan Milosevic and North Korean strongman Kim Jong-Il. The IAC is the force behind International ANSWER, which sponsored the major antiwar (and anti-Bush) rallies before the invasion of Iraq. When ANSWER was outed as a Communist organization, United for Peace and Justice, headed by longtime Communist Party member Leslie Cagan was created as a "moderate" alternative. UFPJ is also a Tides grant recipient.The Tides-funded “A Better Way Project,” which opposed war in Iraq, also coordinated efforts of United for Peace and Justice and the Win Without War Coalition. The celebrity-laden Win Without War Coalition, along with the Bill Moyers-funded Florence and John Schumann Foundation, ran full-page ads in the New York Times opposing the War on Terrorism. This will not be the last overlapping of far-Left causes.

not every.

[Leo Hubbard]

Why is Leo Hubbard/SlyTron/Voltron/Slyhunter still here? Honestly you've been banned as many times for a reason, why not just accept it and take your comments elsewhere?
Are you going to assume that every right winger is this Slyhunter? Ban all right wingers so all you have to listen to is the left wing rhetoric and pretend that your above it all without anyone around showing you the other side. I am sorry I did not read anywhere in the rules that says Left wing only need apply.

[Taft]

... When ANSWER was outed as a Communist organization ...

I missed this the first time around...

Ha! This is another huge lie that these so called jounalists at frontpage try to pass off as fact. When, exactly, was ANSWER "outed" as a Communist organization? They don't even provide a link. They just put it out there and let their readers assume it is fact.

This is the same garbage Coulter and company try to pull. Slip half-truths into a larger argument and hope people just accept it without question. Its as sleazy as tactics get.

Info: http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=A.N.S.W.E.R..

Taft

[mischief]

Are you going to assume that every right winger is this Slyhunter? Ban all right wingers so all you have to listen to is the left wing rhetoric and pretend that your above it all without anyone around showing you the other side. I am sorry I did not read anywhere in the rules that says Left wing only need apply.

I'd see your point if we had any rabidly-leftists here. Unfortunately we're all relatively moderate and willing to talk things out with reputable source material like the Census Bureau and such. Really all you're arguing is that we should have a token jackbooted conservative.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're actually a different brainwashed thirteen year old. Your activities and modus operandi make you a Zealot and constitute spamming at best and Trolling at worst. You have repeatedly come as close to the line as possible which, in many respects is worse than crossing it because it shows a conscious effort to be as extreme in your posts as possible while remaining a pain in the ass.

If you can't argue rationally, use sources that are less mentally deseased or have compassion for any mode of thinking other than your own I suggest you find something else to do with your time.... like attending Klan rallies.

[davecuse]

Are you going to assume that every right winger is this Slyhunter? Ban all right wingers so all you have to listen to is the left wing rhetoric and pretend that your above it all without anyone around showing you the other side. I am sorry I did not read anywhere in the rules that says Left wing only need apply.

No, I would not make a broad generalization like that... I've read all of your posts, you have been citing the exact same source all along (Boortz) and your sister has stated in threads that you and Slyhunter are one and the same.

[3rdpath]

hey leo,

thanks for posting another moronic hateful article.

you further confirm that you're simplistic, bigoted and in dire need of some sort of intervention.

turn off your computer and dial 911....NOW.

[Sayhey]

Leo,

this is red-baiting plain and simple. Play a game of "six degrees of separation" from anyone and you can find someone who is too "red" for your tastes. So what?

John Kerry, Teresa Heinz Kerry, her foundations, John Edwards, and Elizabeth Edwards are all so far from being Communists or supporting "communist causes" as to be ridiculous. Your posts starting this thread are nothing but the worst kind of McCarthyite tactics and smears. How about trying to deal with the issues of this campaign instead of making this stuff up or regurgitating this bile.

Leo, if you are going post stuff here and try to convince anyone of anything, much less earn anyone's respect, you have to try to come up with honest contributions not this ....

[yellow]

John Edwards, [is] so far from being Communists or supporting "communist causes" as to be ridiculous.

Yes. Ambulance chasing a communist does not make..

[IJ Reilly]

this is red-baiting plain and simple

And you expect him to comprehend this concept? I'm not saying this in an effort to be combative or harsh, but to point out that generations have apparently grown up totally unaware that these techniques were tried and repudiated long ago. They actually seem to believe they're on to something new.

[Sayhey]

And you expect him to comprehend this concept? I'm not saying this in an effort to be combative or harsh, but to point out that generations have apparently grown up totally unaware that these techniques were tried and repudiated long ago. They actually seem to believe they're on to something new.

You are right, IJ, that I shouldn't assume that Leo knows any of the history of the McCarthy period or of the even longer history of red-baiting. However, if he doesn't know, it is about time he learns just how disgusting these tactics are and how unacceptable they are in any reasoned debate.

[LeeTom]

I have no problem with any of the things going on in those posts, except for the annoying narrative blasting them. As far as I'm concerned, the biggest extremists are in The White House, Voltron.

Lee Tom

[skunk]

Nice thread! :eek:

[Leo Hubbard]

If you can't argue rationally, use sources that are less mentally deseased or have compassion for any mode of thinking other than your own I suggest you find something else to do with your time.... like attending Klan rallies.
You are the one trolling.
Why would I want to attend a klan rally. I have nothing against blacks or minorities. Simply saying that while logically I can agree with the "homosexual agenda" especially about such things as spousal rights. But still have feelings that I don't like to have that kind of stuff in front of my face. One does not control their feelings. Saying I find them distastful doesn't make me a bigot.

I like steak. I hate fish. Does that make me a bigot? You can still eat fish if you want, just do me a favor and don't do it where I can smell it.

[Leo Hubbard]

I missed this the first time around...

Ha! This is another huge lie that these so called jounalists at frontpage try to pass off as fact. When, exactly, was ANSWER "outed" as a Communist organization? They don't even provide a link. They just put it out there and let their readers assume it is fact.

This is the same garbage Coulter and company try to pull. Slip half-truths into a larger argument and hope people just accept it without question. Its as sleazy as tactics get.

Info: http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=A.N.S.W.E.R..

Taft

This was no accident, for the demonstration was essentially organized by the Workers World Party, a small political sect that years ago split from the Socialist Workers Party to support the Soviet invasion of Hungary in 1956. The party advocates socialist revolution and abolishing private property. It is a fan of Fidel Castro’s regime in Cuba, and it hails North Korean dictator Kim Jong-Il for preserving his country’s “socialist system,” which, according to the party’s newspaper, has kept North Korea “from falling under the sway of the transnational banks and corporations that dictate to most of the world.” The WWP has campaigned against the war-crimes trial of former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic. A recent Workers World editorial declared, “Iraq has done absolutely nothing wrong.”

Officially, the organizer of the Washington demonstration was International ANSWER (Act Now to Stop War & End Racism). But ANSWER is run by WWP activists, to such an extent that it seems fair to dub it a WWP front. Several key ANSWER officials — including spokesperson Brian Becker — are WWP members. Many local offices for ANSWER’s protest were housed in WWP offices. Earlier this year, when ANSWER conducted a press briefing, at least five of the 13 speakers were WWP activists. They were each identified, though, in other ways, including as members of the International Action Center.

The IAC, another WWP offshoot, was a key partner with ANSWER in promoting the protest. It was founded by Ramsey Clark, attorney general for President Lyndon Johnson in the 1960s. For years, Clark has been on a bizarre political odyssey, much of the time in sync with the Workers World Party. As an attorney, he has represented Lyndon LaRouche, the leader of a political cult. He has defended Serbian war criminal Radovan Karadzic and Pastor Elizaphan Ntakirutimana, who was accused of participating in the genocide in Rwanda in 1994. Clark is also a member of the International Committee To Defend Slobodan Milosevic. The international war-crimes tribunal, he explains, “is war by other means” — that is, a tool of the West to crush those who stand in the way of U.S. imperialism, like Milosevic. A critic of the ongoing sanctions against Iraq, Clark has appeared on talking-head shows and refused to concede any wrongdoing on Saddam’s part. There is no reason to send weapons inspectors to Iraq, he told CNN’s Wolf Blitzer: “After 12 years of brutalization with sanctions and bombing they’d like to be a country again. They’d like to have sovereignty again. They’d like to be left alone.”

WWP shaped the demonstration’s content by loading the speakers’ list with its own people. None, though, were identified as belonging to the WWP. Larry Holmes, who emceed much of the rally from a stage dominated by ANSWER posters, was introduced as a representative of the ANSWER Steering Committee and the International Action Center. The audience was not told that he is also a member of the secretariat of the Workers World Party. When Leslie Feinberg spoke and accused Bush of concocting a war to cover up “the capitalist economic crisis,” she informed the crowd that she is “a Jewish revolutionary” dedicated to the “fight against Zionism.” When I asked her what groups she worked with, she replied that she was a “lesbian-gay-bi-transgender movement activist.” Yet a May issue of Workers World describes Feinberg as a “lesbian and transgendered communist and a managing editor of Workers World.” The WWP’s Sara Flounders, who urged the crowd to resist “colonial subjugation,” was presented as an IAC rep. Shortly after she spoke, Holmes introduced one of the event’s big-name speakers: Ramsey Clark. He declared that the Bush administration aims to “end the idea of individual freedom.”

etc etc etc http://www.laweekly.com/ink/02/50/news-corn.php


If you read The Washington Post or The New York Times, you might conclude that a massive antiwar rally held last weekend on the national mall comprised kindly grandparents, schoolteachers and honor students wanting nothing else but “peace.”

That’s because The Post and The Times and various other media failed to inform citizens of the hard-core Marxist organizations and Communist front groups who organized the rally. And most “mainstream” media failed to report the anti-American rants that emanated from the speakers on the national Mall on Saturday.

C-SPAN ran live coverage of the rally and re-aired the event several times during the day and night. But it misled viewers into thinking that a group called International ANSWER was behind it. In fact, International ANSWER and its predecessor, the International Action Center, were started by the communist Workers World Party, of which [rally organizers Brian] Becker and [Larry] Holmes are leading members. Holmes appeared on C-SPAN's Washington Journal program before the rally to promote it. But C-SPAN ignored the patriotic counter-demonstration and failed to feature anyone who could rip the mask off the communist-inspired event. C-SPAN became an American version of Al Jazeera, the Arab television network which serves as a vehicle for extreme anti-American propaganda. This is an outrage.

The antiwar rally was endorsed by hundreds of leftists, such as former Attorney General Ramsey Clark, Bishop Thomas Gumbleton from the Catholic Archdiocese of Detroit, Marxist historian Howard Zinn, and comedian Dick Gregory. You can see the full list on International ANSWER’s Web site (http://www.internationalanswer.org/endorsers.html).

etc http://www.cwfa.org/articles/3122/CFI/cfreport/

[Leo Hubbard]

In case you want to argue that the WWP isn't a communistic group.

Workers World Party (WWP) is a socialist party in the United States which was founded in 1959 by Sam Marcy. They claim to embrace the political philosophy of Marxism-Leninism but others characterize the group as being Neo-Stalinist. The WWP formed as a split from the Socialist Workers Party in 1958 over a series of long-standing differences (among them, the support of Sam Marcy for Henry Wallace's Progressive Party in 1948, the positive view they held of the Chinese Revolution led by Mao Zedong, and their support for the Soviet intervention in Hungary in 1956).

Although in origin a Trotskyist group, the WWP describes itself as Marxist-Leninist, a phrase rarely used by Trotskyists. However WWP continues to sell some of the writings of Trotsky as well as those of Stalin and Mao. This combination of influences is otherwise almost unknown within the far left milieu.

At a theoretical level however, almost nothing remains of their origins within the Trotskyist movement and they repudiate almost all of his ideas. The WWP agrees with Trotsky's description of pre-1991 Russia as being a "degenerated workers state" and extend that description to countries such as Cuba, North Korea and China. But it should be noted that this term is rarely used and the term socialist is far more often chosen to describe such states. In practice, they politically support these states far more energetically than many of the remaining orthodox Communist parties. Similarly, they support countries which they see as victims of American Imperialism such as Iraq or Libya. However, they do not describe such states as being socialist.

For the last two presidential elections, their candidate has been activist Monica Moorehead. Workers World has opposed both Gulf Wars, and was influential in the anti-war group ANSWER. It has also supported China's actions in the Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 [1] (http://www.workers.org/ww/tienanmen.html).

This thing was full of embedded links, which I did not copy.
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Workers_World_Party
the source is worldiq.com. Nice encyclopedia.

[davecuse]

Am I the only one who completely ignores those long copy and pasted articles?

[zimv20]

Am I the only one who completely ignores those long copy and pasted articles?
nope!

remember when discussing the new rules for this forum, we had talked about implementing language to stop it? i wish we had.

i'm surprised that so many people still don't have newsly on their ignore lists.

[kerb]

Leo Hubbard - Britain needs you!

Please save us from evil free health care, state benefits and nationalised industries.

:p

[skunk]

And bring lots of GUNS!

[Ugg]

Wasteland please.

I overrode my ignore list and read the bile that was being spouted. I'm glad I hadn't just eaten before reading it or I would have spewed. Why is there so much hate on the right? Are you glad that you support people who are so hateful? Does it make you a better American?

[Leo Hubbard]

Wasteland please.

I overrode my ignore list and read the bile that was being spouted. I'm glad I hadn't just eaten before reading it or I would have spewed. Why is there so much hate on the right? Are you glad that you support people who are so hateful? Does it make you a better American?
There is no hate in my post.

[LethalWolfe]

And bring lots of GUNS!

Eh, ya'll are doin' fine on your own in that regard. ;)


Lethal

[takao]

Leo Hubbard - Britain needs you!

Please save us from evil free health care, state benefits and nationalised industries.

:p

yeah somebody has to stop that growing anarchy in the UK

and yeah LOTS OF GUNS would make it the savest place in the universe (after the US of course)

;)

[Leo Hubbard]

yeah somebody has to stop that growing anarchy in the UK

and yeah LOTS OF GUNS would make it the savest place in the universe (after the US of course)

;)
I don't recall anyone in this thread talking about a growing anarchy in the UK?

[Mark James]

I don't recall anyone in this thread talking about a growing anarchy in the UK?
It's a conspiracy of silence, Leo.

Blame the lizard-men.

[Dale Sorel]

Just curious, but do folks here find that the truth of an article is directly proportional to the number of words contained within said article?

[LethalWolfe]

I don't recall anyone in this thread talking about a growing anarchy in the UK?


I think this is where the threads spins off into never-never land never to be replied to seriously again.


Lethal

[davecuse]

Sometimes there is a fine line between sarcastic comments about the political and social state of the UK, and false connections about US Presidential Candidates.

Then again sometimes it is very clear (to myself at least) that some comments are not meant to be taken seriously. Pointing out such comments as out of context gives the impression that a partiticipant of the conversation doesn't really catch what's going on.

[IJ Reilly]

I'm sorry Dave, I don't get your drift. :p

[davecuse]

I'm sorry Dave, I don't get your drift. :p

I generally don't either

[zimv20]

davecuse supports terrorism because he made his post at 9:11. read about it here. (http://www.frontpagemag.com/we/have/no/journalistic/standards.html)

[mischief]

davecuse supports terrorism because he made his post at 9:11. read about it here. (http://www.frontpagemag.com/we/have/no/journalistic/standards.html)

I tried your link but got the following mental 404 error: http://www.coxar.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/

Perhaps I shouldn't give Safari Acid.... :D

In terms of Leo's attitude problem... I think it's fairly self explanitory... If you're on the Right you're automatically correct. Or is that just a glitch in the language?!! :eek:

No wonder I'm wrong! I'm Canadian AND left-handed! Dear god! I've already bred too!!! :eek: :eek:

[Leo Hubbard]

Sometimes there is a fine line between sarcastic comments about the political and social state of the UK, and false connections about US Presidential Candidates.

Then again sometimes it is very clear (to myself at least) that some comments are not meant to be taken seriously. Pointing out such comments as out of context gives the impression that a partiticipant of the conversation doesn't really catch what's going on.
I think documenting fact that Kerry's wife supports an organization that supports terrorism is a valid topic of discussion.

I think the sub topic that Taft drew from that article about ANSWER being communist backed is also a valid discussion. See post #29 for the evidence on that. This is something I've known about for years, thought it was common knowledge. And #30 is the post on how WWP is a communist group which helped spawn ANSWER. Not pulled from a biased news site but from an unbiased online encyclopedia. :mad:

Both are serious valid topics good for discussion. Hiding from the truth, won't make it untrue.

[Neserk]

Why is Leo Hubbard/SlyTron/Voltron/Slyhunter still here? Honestly you've been banned as many times for a reason, why not just accept it and take your comments elsewhere?

Geesh... how many times do I have to tell you people this is NOT Voltron, et al?


That aside... I agree with whoever made the comment about saying Thersesia's name "teeeerza"

[SuperChuck]

I haven't laughed this hard in weeks. I hope this thread doesn't get tossed simply because I need a good laugh every now and again.

Leo...

Leo, Leo, Leo.

Do you actually believe that the Kerrys are secretly terrorist sympathizers bent on helping others to murder Americans?

If the answer is no, then the title of your thread would make you a troll (one who is exaggerating claims - especially in the header - for the express purpose of "trolling" for a fight)

If the answer is yes, please send me a PM, because I really want to understand how anyone could actually believe anything so obviously false (and I doubt anybody else here cares to hear your response).

[Leo Hubbard]

I haven't laughed this hard in weeks. I hope this thread doesn't get tossed simply because I need a good laugh every now and again.

Leo...

Leo, Leo, Leo.

Do you actually believe that the Kerrys are secretly terrorist sympathizers bent on helping others to murder Americans?

If the answer is no, then the title of your thread would make you a troll (one who is exaggerating claims - especially in the header - for the express purpose of "trolling" for a fight)

If the answer is yes, please send me a PM, because I really want to understand how anyone could actually believe anything so obviously false (and I doubt anybody else here cares to hear your response).
I believe that Kerry's wife really did donate money to an organizatin that finances Cuba and terrorist groups.

I believe it is possible that they think it is unfair what is being done to the Cubans, for example, and have financially supported them in one way or another. I believe for the rest of the stuff that I won't be surprised whichever way the truth proves out. It is indeed possible she knowingly financed terrorists, knowing they kill Americans and other innocents. It is also possible she naively financed them, not knowing the full extent. Some people only care for themselves and the means to their ends is immaterial until they are caught. Mainly I think the Kerry's is more interested in their goals, to the point that the ends justify any means.

[IJ Reilly]

Do you actually believe that the Kerrys are secretly terrorist sympathizers bent on helping others to murder Americans?

He'd believe that the Earth is flat, if he'd heard it from Boortz.

[Sayhey]

I believe that Kerry's wife really did donate money to an organizatin that finances Cuba and terrorist groups.

I believe it is possible that they think it is unfair what is being done to the Cubans, for example, and have financially supported them in one way or another. I believe for the rest of the stuff that I won't be surprised whichever way the truth proves out. It is indeed possible she knowingly financed terrorists, knowing they kill Americans and other innocents. It is also possible she naively financed them, not knowing the full extent. Some people only care for themselves and the means to their ends is immaterial until they are caught. Mainly I think the Kerry's is more interested in their goals, to the point that the ends justify any means.

Leo, you will believe anything if you believe this nonsense. Please read the following and then send a message of apology to the Kerrys. Ok, at least read the facts.

Summary

False allegations about Kerry's wife have been circulating for months, but the velocity of the Internet "whispering campaign" picked up substantially with the approach of the Fall campaign.

One*false message claims*Teresa Heinz*Kerry gave $4 million to a foundation that used the funds to support a list of "radical" groups including*one with alleged links to Hamas and another*that is said to have offered to provide a lawyer for Saddam Hussein.*But public records show otherwise.*Heinz Kerry's*foundation money was directed to projects such as "Sustainable Pittsburgh," which promotes "smart growth" strategies.

Another widely circulated e-mail claims Kerry and his wife*"own" dozens of*H.J. Heinz Company factories*in Europe and Asia. It*accuses Kerry of hypocrisy for denouncing offshoring of US jobs while "making millions off that cheap labor."

That's also false:*neither*of them*own Heinz. Public records show*Heinz Kerry*isn't an officer of the company, isn't*on the company's board of directors, and isn't even*close to being the*largest shareholder. The Heinz*Endowments do own Heinz stock --*less than 4% of the company -- but*income from that stock goes to charity, not to the Kerrys personally.

FactCheck.org (http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=224)

[Ugg]

Leo and all the others involved in this smear campaign should be ashamed of themselves. I'm thinking that Leo is flirting with banishment by posting such bs.

Is there anyway we can ban all boortz, frontpagerag, rush, fox etc, viewers from voting this fall :D

[diamond geezer]

These funds went to rabid antiwar demonstrators, anti-trade demonstrators, domestic Islamist organizations, pro-terrorists legal groups, environmentalists, abortion partisans, extremist homosexual activists

Can you please explain to me the difference between an anti-war demonstrator and a rabid anti-war demonstrator.

Do they foam at the mouth and try bite each other? Hard to get out and protest when you've got paralysis!

Do extremist homosexuals go around straight-bashing or bombing weddings?


Do tell.

Really, it's rather hard to take any story seriously, that includes this sort of tripe.

[yellow]

Mainly I think the Kerry's is more interested in their goals, to the point that the ends justify any means.

Something like say.... oh.. I know! A war in the middle east, just to control oil reserves? Just say the dude that runs the middle east country is a bad man. Part of an axis of evil. Tried to kill mah daddy. Allude to possible link to a past terrorist attack in your own country. Well, let's get that evil doer! Lets put our country further in debt! We can always call one of those debt consolidation places, right? Oh, while I'm at it.. let's give some of this surplus cash back to the American people. Here you go middle class white guy, here's $300. I just saved your family! Vote for me in 2004! I've got encumbetory advantatude!

[Leo Hubbard]

Leo, you will believe anything if you believe this nonsense. Please read the following and then send a message of apology to the Kerrys. Ok, at least read the facts.



FactCheck.org (http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=224)
Fact she donates to Tides. Plenty of links that establishes that.
Fact Tides sends money to communist groups, Cuba, and suspecter or known terrorist groups.

[Taft]

I think the sub topic that Taft drew from that article about ANSWER being communist backed is also a valid discussion. See post #29 for the evidence on that. This is something I've known about for years, thought it was common knowledge. And #30 is the post on how WWP is a communist group which helped spawn ANSWER. Not pulled from a biased news site but from an unbiased online encyclopedia. :mad:

OK, I didn't get a chance to respond to this yesterday, but here is my response to this ANSWER = Communists charge.

Lets dissect your "argument" paragraph by paragraph.

This was no accident, for the demonstration was essentially organized by the Workers World Party, a small political sect that years ago split from the Socialist Workers Party to support the Soviet invasion of Hungary in 1956. The party advocates socialist revolution and abolishing private property. It is a fan of Fidel Castro’s regime in Cuba, and it hails North Korean dictator Kim Jong-Il for preserving his country’s “socialist system,” which, according to the party’s newspaper, has kept North Korea “from falling under the sway of the transnational banks and corporations that dictate to most of the world.” The WWP has campaigned against the war-crimes trial of former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic. A recent Workers World editorial declared, “Iraq has done absolutely nothing wrong.”

OK, so the WWP is a radical socialist group. They are not, however, not a communist group. There is a distinction between socialism and communism, you know.

Officially, the organizer of the Washington demonstration was International ANSWER (Act Now to Stop War & End Racism). But ANSWER is run by WWP activists, to such an extent that it seems fair to dub it a WWP front. Several key ANSWER officials — including spokesperson Brian Becker — are WWP members. Many local offices for ANSWER’s protest were housed in WWP offices. Earlier this year, when ANSWER conducted a press briefing, at least five of the 13 speakers were WWP activists. They were each identified, though, in other ways, including as members of the International Action Center.

How many "key ANSWER officials" are WWP members? How many local offices are housed in WWP offices? They are light on the details and heavy on the implications.

How many members here belong to more than one group? For example, a person such as you, Leo, might be interested in both the Republican party and a conservative activism group. It would strike me as common that groups with common goals would have overlap in membership. In the case of ANSWER and WWP, they were both protesting the war at the time, and it doesn't surprise me that there would be overlap.

HOWEVER, this article does not detail the overlap sufficiently to draw any conclusions as to the ideology of ANSWER. Simply pointing out that ONE official is a member of WWP is not sufficient evidence.

The IAC, another WWP offshoot, was a key partner wisth ANSWER in promoting the protest. It was founded by Ramsey Clark, attorney general for President Lyndon Johnson in the 1960s. For years, Clark has been on a bizarre political odyssey, much of the time in sync with the Workers World Party. As an attorney, he has represented Lyndon LaRouche, the leader of a political cult. He has defended Serbian war criminal Radovan Karadzic and Pastor Elizaphan Ntakirutimana, who was accused of participating in the genocide in Rwanda in 1994. Clark is also a member of the International Committee To Defend Slobodan Milosevic. The international war-crimes tribunal, he explains, “is war by other means” — that is, a tool of the West to crush those who stand in the way of U.S. imperialism, like Milosevic. A critic of the ongoing sanctions against Iraq, Clark has appeared on talking-head shows and refused to concede any wrongdoing on Saddam’s part. There is no reason to send weapons inspectors to Iraq, he told CNN’s Wolf Blitzer: “After 12 years of brutalization with sanctions and bombing they’d like to be a country again. They’d like to have sovereignty again. They’d like to be left alone.”

Bang! First sentence of this paragraph is already loaded with assumptions. "The IAC, another WWP offshoot..." Whoa there, cowboy! Would someone mind explaining to me why the IAC is a WWP offshoot? A quick look over their site (http://www.iacenter.org/) shows they support many liberal ideals, but I wouldn't classify a single major goal of theirs as communist or in line with WWP goals.

Then, as quickly as the WWP connection was mentioned, it was dropped. Instead, they go on to smear Ramsey Clark, IAC's founder. Now, you (or myself, for that matter) might not support Clark's actions, but what about them shows he is a communist? He doesn't appear to be connected to the WWP, either.

This entire paragraph add NOTHING to the argument that ANSWER is a communist organization. It does not show that IAC is a communist organization or in any way related to the socialist WWP.

WWP shaped the demonstration’s content by loading the speakers’ list with its own people. None, though, were identified as belonging to the WWP. Larry Holmes, who emceed much of the rally from a stage dominated by ANSWER posters, was introduced as a representative of the ANSWER Steering Committee and the International Action Center. The audience was not told that he is also a member of the secretariat of the Workers World Party.

Two words: so what. Does every speaker have to disclose ALL of his affiliations EVERY time he speaks. We have established that there were a few WWP members speaking at the anti-war rally. So what? The rally was to help stop the war, not to spread the word of communist ideals. The speakers were addressing the war, not how we have to overthrow our capatalist government.

When Leslie Feinberg spoke and accused Bush of concocting a war to cover up “the capitalist economic crisis,” she informed the crowd that she is “a Jewish revolutionary” dedicated to the “fight against Zionism.” When I asked her what groups she worked with, she replied that she was a “lesbian-gay-bi-transgender movement activist.” Yet a May issue of Workers World describes Feinberg as a “lesbian and transgendered communist and a managing editor of Workers World.”

See the two words from above. This tries to paint Feinberg as some sort of liar. I am supposed to believe that because the Workers World publication refers to her as a “lesbian and transgendered communist" that she can't possibly be a Jewish activist, as well?

In the world of the Right, when the Red-smear rears its ugly head, the left is painted as a group with only one goal: to support communism. They have no other interests. They have no other affiliations. They have no other causes. This simplistic view allows them to ignore pesky details like the fact that almost everyone I know has more than one cause they believe in.

The WWP’s Sara Flounders, who urged the crowd to resist “colonial subjugation,” was presented as an IAC rep. Shortly after she spoke, Holmes introduced one of the event’s big-name speakers: Ramsey Clark. He declared that the Bush administration aims to “end the idea of individual freedom.”

That proves it. ANSWER is a bunch of commies.

:rolleyes:

From what I can make out of all this mess of sloppy reporting, these groups represent a loose affiliation of people with diverging ideals and goals. While the groups cooperate with one another, and their memberships might overlap somewhat, they are not all the same organization with the same goals. To pretend they are is to ignore details (much like this article is). To a large extent, it doesn't matter what other groups wmembers belong to. So long as the actions of the group stay true to their state goals (end war and racism), what does it matter?

Does the Republican party screen its members for radicals? I doubt it. Given that, how many Neo-Nazi's are also members of the Republican party? I'd venture a guess of quite a few. Is the whole Republican party therefore supportive of Neo-Nazi beliefs and goals?

Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? Now maybe you see how most of us see your posts in this thread.

Taft

[Leo Hubbard]

Can you please explain to me the difference between an anti-war demonstrator and a rabid anti-war demonstrator.

Do they foam at the mouth and try bite each other? Hard to get out and protest when you've got paralysis!

Do extremist homosexuals go around straight-bashing or bombing weddings?


Do tell.

Really, it's rather hard to take any story seriously, that includes this sort of tripe.
I'm not the one who wrote the story, and I'm not psychic.

[Taft]

Fact she donates to Tides. Plenty of links that establishes that.
Fact Tides sends money to communist groups, Cuba, and suspecter or known terrorist groups.

Fact: you have proved nothing.
Fact: what you have provided so far SAYS that the Heinz foundation donates money to these groups, but there are no hard facts showing the money trail. We have to accept the arguments in your links on faith.
Fact: no-one here is willing to accept the arguments you have posted without sufficient proof.


Give me hard documentation that shows the Heinz foundation donated money to these organizations or shut up about it. Frontpagemag saying it is not hard proof. Where did they get the numbers? Did you see the paper trail? Your entire argument hinges on the fact that the Heinz foundation gave money to these groups, yet you show no proof of it.

Taft

[Leo Hubbard]

WWP good site to check out http://www.infoshop.org/texts/wwp.html

Workers World Party: The Workers World Party was founded by Sam Marcy in 1959 when he left the Socialist Workers Party. Over time, Marcy's political ideology had warped from Trotskyism to an unusual form of Stalinism. The WWP claimed that it supported the rights of workers, but supported the overthrow of workers by the Soviet Union in places like Czechoslovakia, Hungary, and Poland. The Workers World Party nominated its first candidate for office in 1980. Though the WWP is small, its membership is highly dedicated and can accomplish much. In 1996, the WWP succeeded in capturing a ballot spot in California which led to WWP Presidential candidate Monica Moorehead getting over 29,000 votes (mainly from California) in 1996. Moorehead once again ran for President in 2000 under the WWP ballot, but this time received less than 5,000 votes. The WWP has created a number of front organizations, including the International Action Center (which has been involved in the anti-globalization demonstrations) and the newly-formed ANSWER (an anti-war group). On May 10, FBI Director Louis Freeh named the WWP as a "domestic terrorist group" without providing any evidence, paving the way for future attacks on civil liberties on groups for merely having different opinions than the mainstream. This has brought sympathy from many leftists toward the WWP. However, the WWP continues to do things which will turn leftists away from them, including backing the Kimist dictators of North Korea and supporting the efforts of the anti-Semitic, chauvinistic Russian Communist Workers Party (RKRP). Overall, Workers World is one of the most authoritarian groups on the Left today. See the number of votes the WWP received in Presidential elections.
"American Red Groups"
http://www.red-encyclopedia.org/groups.html


Given that authoritarian sectarian groups tend to stay with the tactics that work for them, it's quite simple to trace the connections between the WWP and A.N.S.W.E.R. Sometimes this is as easy as looking at which groups are individuals are involved when a group starts. Another easy method is to look at who speaks to the media at A.N.S.W.E.R. press conferences. In the case of A.N.S.W.E.R., WWP member Brian Becker is frequently the spokesperson for A.N.S.W.E.R. at press conferences and in media interviews. The beauty of front groups is that they can establish media credibility for a leader who can hide their links with the more politically problematic parent group. You can also look at who speaks at A.N.S.W.E.R. sponsored events: you will find activists such as Larry Holmes, Ramsey Clark, and Leslie Feinberg who all identify themselves as being part of front groups run by the WWP. Feinberg has identified herself as being a member of the IAC, when in reality she is the editor of Workers World, the newspaper of the WWP.

Another method of tracing these conenctions is to look at the addresses listed on websites and literature published by the front groups. For example, A.N.S.W.E.R. recently created the VoteNoWar.org (http://www.votenowar.org/) campaign, which lists as an address where checks can be sent an address that corresponds to an existing WWP fundraising front group.

[Leo Hubbard]

Give me hard documentation that shows the Heinz foundation donated money to these organizations or shut up about it. Frontpagemag saying it is not hard proof. Where did they get the numbers? Did you see the paper trail? Your entire argument hinges on the fact that the Heinz foundation gave money to these groups, yet you show no proof of it.

Taft

Money. Money is to the Tides Foundation and Center what water is to the tide. You can’t be sure from what source any part comes. You can’t be sure where any part goes. But it can knock you off your feet and pull you down. And there is an ocean of it.

The Tides Foundation and its offspring, the Tides Center, effectively “launder” donor dollars when they give to other nonprofits. The San Francisco-based Foundation receives donations from individuals and foundations and then channels them to activist groups. The result is that the original donor can’t be linked to the ultimate recipient. According to the most recent available IRS form 990, the Tides Foundation received $86.1 million in grants, gifts and other contributions in 2001. It gave away over $76 million. Since it was established in 1976, the Foundation has given away over $300 million in grants. (Total 2001 income was $93.2 million; the Foundation had assets of more than $156 million.)

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1091129/posts

Set up in 1976 by California activist Drummond Pike, Tides does two things better than any other foundation or charity in the U.S. today: it routinely obscures the sources of its tax-exempt millions, and makes it difficult (if not impossible) to discern how the funds are actually being used.

In practice, “Tides” behaves less like a philanthropy than a money-laundering enterprise (apologies to Procter & Gamble), taking money from other foundations and spending it as the donor requires. Called donor-advised giving, this pass-through funding vehicle provides public-relations insulation for the money’s original donors. By using Tides to funnel its capital, a large public charity can indirectly fund a project with which it would prefer not to be directly identified in public. Drummond Pike has reinforced this view, telling The Chronicle of Philanthropy: “Anonymity is very important to most of the people we work with.”
http://www.activistcash.com/organization_overview.cfm/oid/225

The whole point of the organization is to hide the paper trail. If someone did manage to do the detective work and find the paper trail you want me to post on here, it wouldn't be just a news story it would be a criminal investigation with handcuffs around her hands.

You expect everything to be proven beyond the reason of doubt when it comes to opposition to your party, but you trust that Kerry and those who speak on your partys side without any such proof. You trust accusations made against the Republican party without any such proof.

If I were to be able to find such documented proof as you require I could write a book, through a ghost writer, and become a multi-millionaire tomorrow.


Heinz Kerry, worth as much as $1 billion according to some estimates, has directed donations in the millions to the Tides Foundation, a 28-year-old grant-making institution that funds some of the principal groups organizing demonstrations and disruptions of the GOP convention.

The umbrella coalition organizing the protests is called United for Peace and Justice – strongly critical of the war in Iraq. The coalition was sponsored by Ramsey Clark's International Action Center, which was funded by the Tides Center's Iraq Peace Fund and Peace Studies Fund. Clark's group also sponsored International ANSWER. Both groups are run by long-time communist revolutionaries.

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39502
You aren't going to find any left wing mass media coverage on this stuff it goes against their own agendas.

[Sayhey]

Leo,

here you go, I worked in the Anti-Apartheid movement, in which the Workers World Party, along with many other socialist and communist groups, also participated. I support John Kerry. Therefore Kerry is a Communist. Proof! There you have it! This is absurd NONSENSE!

Did you even read the FactCheck site? You are so dead set sure that Kerry and his wife must be supporting terrorism that you won't let a small thing like the facts get in the way. The fact is that no money from the Heinz endowments or from any of the Kerrys went to the places your article mentions. The fact is that the Tides foundation is not some communist "front" organization. The fact is that even if the above was true (again it is not) none of the organizations involved have ever been accused of terrorism or aiding terrorism. That fact is that your argument relies on fear and lies to fool people into believing the unbelievable.

By the way, Leo. In the Anti-Apartheid movement we also had Republicans, so maybe John Kerry and Teresa Heinz Kerry are secret GOP fifth columnists?

[Taft]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1091129/posts

The whole point of the organization is to hide the paper trail. If someone did manage to do the detective work and find the paper trail you want me to post on here, it wouldn't be just a news story it would be a criminal investigation with handcuffs around her hands.

You expect everything to be proven beyond the reason of doubt when it comes to opposition to your party, but you trust that Kerry and those who speak on your partys side without any such proof. You trust accusations made against the Republican party without any such proof.

If I were to be able to find such documented proof as you require I could write a book, through a ghost writer, and become a multi-millionaire tomorrow.


http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39502
You aren't going to find any left wing mass media coverage on this stuff it goes against their own agendas.


OK, so the Tides foundation obscures which donor dollars go to which end-point non-profits. Fine. I'll accept that.

What your quotes DON'T say, however, is that the donars to the Tides foundation are obscured. It should be known who donates to the Tides foundation, even if it isn't known where that money ends up. To quote a link you provided: "The result is that the original donor can’t be linked to the ultimate recipient."

It should still be possible to know if the Heinz foundation gave any money to the Tides foundation. You chose to ignore the post Sayhey made, but in it, he links to a page which refutes the information you are providing.

So, the challenge is still out there: prove the Heinz foundation gave any money to the Tides foundation. I don't care where that money ended up, I just want to know if ANY money went from Heinz to Tides. If you can't prove that, then this whole argument is moot.

Note: someone saying "I heard the Heinze foundation gave money to the Tides foundation" is NOT proof.

Respond to ALL the points of this post or you will be ignored.

Taft

[mischief]

Respond to ALL the points of this post or you will be ignored.

Taft

He's being ignored by several of us already. I've been responding to where he's quoted by others. Hearsay deserves hearsay I say.... :p

(SARCASM/)
Let him believe in his propoganda. He'll only spiral and wind up bitter and alone in some shack in Montana where the BATF will finally have to put him out of our misery. ( /SARCASM )

BTW: My cheque from the secret UN World Dominance council is in Euro... Has anyone cashed theirs yet? Do I have to use a certain bank? :confused:

[mactastic]

Funny how some people get so worked up over this supposed Kerry -> Terrorist connection but aren't the least bit concerned that Dubya recieved tens of thousands of dollars worth of gifts from a member of a family that has proven ties to terrorism.

[quidire]

Leo,

You assert that the Kerrys fund these groups because funding Cuba and/or terrorists advance their agenda... (means justify ends and all that)

How do you figure?

If there is a terrorist strike between now and Nov 2, Kerry loses thanks the "rally around the flag" tendency of US voters. Bush has a direct incentive for there to be a strike against the US, not Kerry.

as for Cuba... Hey I have no stake in this, but seriously, we "engage" China, a far harsher regime to their own people, and far more dangerous geopolitically, but suppress Cuba? It really doesn't make much sense.

-RS

[IJ Reilly]

I've gotta wonder -- did anyone make an issue of this back when Teresa Heinz Kerry was married to a Republican Senator?

[mouchoir]

I've gotta wonder -- did anyone make an issue of this back when Teresa Heinz Kerry was married to a Republican Senator?

And that's a wrap folks!

(seriously, if you'ld mentioned this earlier, we would never have had to go through all of this) ;)

[3rdpath]

if you follow money long enough, we all support terrorism... :rolleyes:

leo,

i'm just going to assume from this point that you're just trying to be humorous...yanking our chains with the most absurd articles.

you're an andy kaufman fan aren't you?

you really had me there..thinking you were serious and all.

dang you funny man.

[Taft]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1091129/posts

The whole point of the organization is to hide the paper trail. If someone did manage to do the detective work and find the paper trail you want me to post on here, it wouldn't be just a news story it would be a criminal investigation with handcuffs around her hands.

I found what you are looking for. Get it here: http://www.heinz.org/files/HP_Digit.pdf

Its conclusive proof that the Heinz endowment gave cash to the Tides fund. Unfortunately for you, it also lists exactly where that money went.

Hint: Hamas was not on the list.

Taft

[Leo Hubbard]

OK, so the Tides foundation obscures which donor dollars go to which end-point non-profits. Fine. I'll accept that.

What your quotes DON'T say, however, is that the donars to the Tides foundation are obscured. It should be known who donates to the Tides foundation, even if it isn't known where that money ends up. To quote a link you provided: "The result is that the original donor can’t be linked to the ultimate recipient."

It should still be possible to know if the Heinz foundation gave any money to the Tides foundation. You chose to ignore the post Sayhey made, but in it, he links to a page which refutes the information you are providing.

So, the challenge is still out there: prove the Heinz foundation gave any money to the Tides foundation. I don't care where that money ended up, I just want to know if ANY money went from Heinz to Tides. If you can't prove that, then this whole argument is moot.

Note: someone saying "I heard the Heinze foundation gave money to the Tides foundation" is NOT proof.

Respond to ALL the points of this post or you will be ignored.

Taft

The reason why is obvious: The charge does not stand up to objective scrutiny. Four facts undercut it completely. First, by legally binding contract, every penny of Heinz’s support to Tides has been explicitly directed to specific projects in Pennsylvania. It cannot legally be redirected and is the exact opposite of fungible.

Then why do they try to explain how the money they donate to Tides did not get directed to the Cubans in their post about how they aren't contributing to terrorists?
http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/tides.asp
The Heinz people themselves admit to making the donations.

The Diaz-Balarts and Ros-Lehtinen conceded the Heinz Endowments might give money to Tides only for specific projects, but said the donations show overall support for Tides.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/search/s_207828.html
And Tides so overall support for terrorist agencies, Cubans, and communist activists.

[Taft]

He's being ignored by several of us already. I've been responding to where he's quoted by others. Hearsay deserves hearsay I say.... :p

(SARCASM/)
Let him believe in his propoganda. He'll only spiral and wind up bitter and alone in some shack in Montana where the BATF will finally have to put him out of our misery. ( /SARCASM )

BTW: My cheque from the secret UN World Dominance council is in Euro... Has anyone cashed theirs yet? Do I have to use a certain bank? :confused:

If he is in fact Slyhunter back from the MacRumors dead, I usually end up ignoring him. But, like you, I often get sucked back in by reading his posts through other poster's quotations.

Some people are just REALLY hard to ignore, even if they are impossible to talk to logically.

Taft

[Leo Hubbard]

I found what you are looking for. Get it here: http://www.heinz.org/files/HP_Digit.pdf

Its conclusive proof that the Heinz endowment gave cash to the Tides fund. Unfortunately for you, it also lists exactly where that money went.

Hint: Hamas was not on the list.

Taft
At minimum Tides keeps 9% of all donations for themselves for processing and this money helps Tides in all of their ventures.

[alanbuilds]

"Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship... voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."
Hermann Goering, From a conversation with psychologist Gustave Gilbert while jailed at Nuremburg on the evening of 18 April 1946, documented in Gilbert's book "Nuremburg Diary."

please do we have to go through this discussion _again_ ?
please wasteland
Holy cow! Thanks, Takao!!!

[Taft]

At minimum Tides keeps 9% of all donations for themselves for processing and this money helps Tides in all of their ventures.

If you are honest and open minded, you will read the Tides foundation's extensive rebuttal to the charges various conservative organizations have been making. Get it here: http://www.tidesfoundation.org/documents/TidesHeinzReponse0804.pdf

Choice quotes which refute your assertions:

The Democratic Justice Fund

Many articles and emails have mentioned that Tides Foundation supported the Democratic Justice Fund.We not only supported this fund—we created it.

Immediately following the horrible attacks of September 11, 2001, Tides Foundation established the Tides 9/11 Fund as a “rapid response” compliment to the outpouring of contributions surrounding the aftermath of the attacks. This fund was designed to meet a specific niche needs—namely to provide immediate relief to underserved communities, to address the sharp increase in anti-immigrant sentiment and to protect civil rights and civil liberties. (Tides Foundation directed many of our donors to sister organizations—such as the New York Community Trust’s September 11th Fund—for direct assistance contributions.)

Tides Foundation and our partners quickly saw a clear need for a sustained philanthropic effort to address these critical issues, and therefore developed the Democratic Justice Fund to continue this funding.

The Democratic Justice Fund did not seek to ease restrictions from “terrorist” states as many reports have claimed. Tides Foundation does not condone nor support violence of any kind.

Council on American Islamic Relations

There have been many hateful claims about Tides Foundation and the Council on Islamic Relations (CAIR). As part of the Tides 9/11 Fund, Tides Foundation made a onetime $5,000 grant to CAIR. The grant was specifically for CAIR’s Interfaith Coalition Against Hate Crimes project in 2002. Based in Southern California the project was established to promote peaceful coexistence between Muslims and non-Muslims and decrease hate crimes against Muslims.

CAIR has explicitly stated that they have no ties whatsoever to any violent or discriminatory organizations. For more information please visit their website is http://www.cair-net.org/

International Action Center

There have been many reports claiming that Tides Foundation or Tides Center have supported Ramsey Clark’s International Action Center. We have made no grants to this organization nor can we find any association with it in our records.

It also seems that claims of "money laundering," "fungible" money, or "indirect support" that your previous posts alluded to are false. From the document:

The Myth of “Fungible” Money

Many of the recent stories about Tides organizations and the Heinz Endowments include false claims of “laundering” or moving “fungible money” through Tides. Many of these claims originated in an opinion column written by a researcher for the conservative, Washington, D.C.-based Capital Research Center.

The crux of CRC’s argument is that money directed by the Heinz Endowments to Tides is “fungible.” In other words, by supporting projects through Tides, CRC alleged that Heinz has secretly funneled money to every other organization that has ever received funding or services through Tides Foundation or Tides Center.

This is entirely false. The grants to Tides Foundation—the last being six years ago—were used for specific environmental organizations. Likewise, all monies granted from Heinz Endowments to Tides Center have been explicitly directed to specific projects in Pennsylvania and are governed by legally binding contracts. These monies cannot be redirected. These monies are the exact opposite of “fungible.”

Information about every single Tides-related grant from the Heinz Endowments has always been readily available in Heinz public filings, annual reports and on their web site. Additionally, current 990 forms for Tides Foundation and Tides Center have always been available on our website and on Guidestar.com. A complete listing of all Tides Foundation grants has also been made available ever since the launch of our website at www.tidesfoundation.org. Our most recent list of grantees can be found at http://www.tidesfoundation.org/documents/TF_GrantsMade_2003.pdf

Taft

[IJ Reilly]

But they're still a bunch of commies, right?

[mischief]

But they're still a bunch of commies, right?

Speak for yourself Comrad Reilly. ;)

[pseudobrit]

I'm sick of reading the unsubstantiated ************ you post, Leo. I have you on ignore but and still subjected to your utter nonsense everytime I read this board.

You're quite frankly a troll, through and through. And you are SlyHunter/Voltron and I know it. You can play your innocent "who, me? not me!" game all you want. You're a troll, you've been banned and you keep coming back to spread these goddamned ****ing lies around.

"Kerry supports terror." Prove it or **** off. I'm beyond sick of your nonsense.

[Leo Hubbard]

I'm sick of reading the unsubstantiated ************ you post, Leo. I have you on ignore but and still subjected to your utter nonsense everytime I read this board.

You're quite frankly a troll, through and through. And you are SlyHunter/Voltron and I know it. You can play your innocent "who, me? not me!" game all you want. You're a troll, you've been banned and you keep coming back to spread these goddamned ****ing lies around.

"Kerry supports terror." Prove it or **** off. I'm beyond sick of your nonsense.
This post is trolling.

[pseudobrit]

This post is trolling.

Got a link to a boortz or freerepublic to "prove" that ************, too?

[3rdpath]

I'm sick of reading the unsubstantiated ************ you post, Leo. I have you on ignore but and still subjected to your utter nonsense everytime I read this board.

You're quite frankly a troll, through and through. And you are SlyHunter/Voltron and I know it. You can play your innocent "who, me? not me!" game all you want. You're a troll, you've been banned and you keep coming back to spread these goddamned ****ing lies around.

"Kerry supports terror." Prove it or **** off. I'm beyond sick of your nonsense.

thank you pseudo.

[mactastic]

So I guess Leo doesn't care that Bush supports terrorists via ties to the House of Saud? (Who, BTW, have given lavish gifts to the president, his family, and his staff....)

[Leo Hubbard]

Apparently the Ford Foundation also was indirectly supporting terrorists. When they found out about it they iniciated new policies in an attempt to make sure it didn't happen again. It did happen again, I don't really think they did so on purpose. But this is directly related to the Tide Foundation.

The $9 billion Ford Foundation has announced new grantmaking policies that would prevent future funding of some violent activist groups -- if Ford takes its own guidelines seriously. On Monday the giant money machine sent a letter to U.S. Rep. Jerry Nadler (D-NY) admitting its support for groups that promote anti-Semitic violence. "We now recognize that we did not have a clear picture of the activities, organizations and people involved," Ford's president wrote. Now would also be a good time for the Foundation to examine how its funds have been used to advocate the destruction of restaurants, grocery stores, biotech crops, and other mainstays of modern society.
Here's how the Ford Foundation describes its new policy changes:

The Foundation's standard grant agreement letter that grantees around the world must sign to receive Ford funds will now include explicit language requiring the organization to agree that it will not promote violence or terrorism. This prohibition applies to all of the organization's funds, not just those provided through a grant from the Ford Foundation. Organizations unwilling to agree to these terms will not receive Foundation support. (emphasis added)

this is a terrorist group.

As we pointed out yesterday, Friends of the Earth, the happy recipient of more than $2 million in Ford money over the last 10 years, has signed on to a campaign to destroy biotech crop fields. Moreover, the Chairman of Friends of the Earth UK supports an organization whose motto is an open invitation for violence against people: "The Earth is not dying, it is being killed, and those who are killing it have names and addresses."

and this part of the story shows how Ford through the Tides Foundation supported indirectly other terrorist groups.

The original eco-vandals at Earth First! have adopted that same phrase as their rallying cry. And guess what? The Ford Foundation has provided funds, indirectly, to Earth First!.

The Tides Foundation, which takes money from major philanthropic organizations and passes it on to activist groups that are perhaps too radical for mainstream foundations to embrace officially, has received more than $36 million from the Ford Foundation since 1989. One Tides recipient is the Fund for Wild Nature (FWN), which used to be called the Earth First! Foundation. FWN regularly supports the Earth First! Journal as well as local EF! groups like Arizona Earth First!; FWN also funds the Ecology Center in Missoula, Montana, which partially funded the legal defense of convicted arsonist Rodney Coronado.

In addition, Tides financially supports the Independent Media Center (IMC); in February, IMC published a screed by an Earth Liberation Front arsonist who is serving a five-year sentence for setting fire to three logging vehicles. It reads in part:

There are necessary evils if we want to be effective in our struggles, such as the use of petro-fuels in igniting huge bonfires in which we can watch corporations go bankrupt ... I hope I don't sound as if I'm condemning these activities-by all means, burn the [expletive deleted] to the ground.

Now then its already been proven that Heinz supports Tides. Yes so far the proof shows that their money is spent on other things. At least 9% of their money collected by Tides to be used as Tides see fit. And Tides supports terroristic groups.

At worst this logic is equal to the logic that Bush attacked Iraq for oil.
At best, someday better information will come out in the near future that gives better trail for I still think that Heinz sent money to places like Cuba, and/or terrorist sympathizers that directly or indirectly support terrorists like those in Iran or Palastine. But for this I have to wait and see. An investigation is still called for after all if I remember a quote correctly from years ago "it is not that the evidence support the accusation, but that the charges are serious enough to warrent investigation that may dig up more evidence on the matter." I forget who said that, but I believe it was a Democrat.

[Leo Hubbard]

So I guess Leo doesn't care that Bush supports terrorists via ties to the House of Saud? (Who, BTW, have given lavish gifts to the president, his family, and his staff....)
Actually that is already a proven fact.
Bush supports the Saudi Government.
The Saudi's supports terrorists, probably through the means of a protection racket of some sort, and/or through family members who sympathises with terrorist.

So in essence that would be correct. And I do care, but some things we can do nothing about.

[mactastic]

And I do care, but some things we can do nothing about.

You can't think of one thing you can do about it? Not one teensy weensy little thing like maybe say..... voting?

Plus I love how you shrug off Dubya's ties to terror but make a huge deal about the Heinz foundations. Not very fair and balanced of you, is it?

[Leo Hubbard]

You can't think of one thing you can do about it? Not one teensy weensy little thing like maybe say..... voting?

Plus I love how you shrug off Dubya's ties to terror but make a huge deal about the Heinz foundations. Not very fair and balanced of you, is it?
The only reason Heinz foundations became a big deal is because so many people are arguing how its not true and demanding proof. They made it a big deal. This thread for example would have died after the third post (I posted three posts up front), but it didn't because other people made it a big deal.

[mactastic]

The only reason Heinz foundations became a big deal is because so many people are arguing how its not true and demanding proof. They made it a big deal. This thread for example would have died after the third post (I posted three posts up front), but it didn't because other people made it a big deal.

No Leo, it became a big deal because it is yet another of the despicable lies that the right wing has been spreading about Kerry. You repeated it and were challenged on it. Is that making a big deal? Do you accept everything the left says without protest? And if you try to set the record straight is that 'making a big deal' out of it? If I crawl down a holocaust denyer's throat, is that 'making a big deal' out of their lies?

How about attacking on the issues of substance instead of resorting to these low and dirty tactics? Are you up to the challenge?

[Taft]

Now then its already been proven that Heinz supports Tides. Yes so far the proof shows that their money is spent on other things. At least 9% of their money collected by Tides to be used as Tides see fit. And Tides supports terroristic groups.

I think I should be able to call you names at this point. I'm just furious.

You ignored the information I posted. This post proves it. 9% of their money does not get used as "Tides sees fit." That is their fee which they use to pay their employees and run their business. Their website states this plainly.

You should be banned. You take the level of discourse on this forum to new lows. You blatently ignore posts which disagree with you. You copy and paste opinion pieces, rants, and poorly researched trains of logic and try to pass it off as fact. When people argue logically against what you are saying, you just post more opinion pieces and rant.

It is useless to talk with you because you have made up your mind already. Boortz has brainwashed you and subsequently, you spew the most illogical information of any poster here.

In the end, you lose. You've just been added to another ignore list, and you will probably be banned--AGAIN!--in the near future. If you could just take a step back and not assume everything that Boortz and Coulter say is true, there would be some hope for rational discourse.

I am not hopeful you will every change. Its sad, really.

Taft

[skunk]

You, Leo, are what Europe detests about America.

[Sayhey]

You, Leo, are what Europe detests about America.

Now, now, skunk. You have your Leos as well. The real difference is that we have someone who thinks like him with the power to launch nuclear missiles. As much as I complain about your Prime Minister, he at least isn't a prisoner to this type of narrow-minded, paranoid ideology. This kind of purposeful ignorance works well for goose-stepping and not much else.

Leo has proven himself to be incapable of the basic rules of debate. He refuses to read what his opponents have posted. He refuses to acknowledge when he is proven wrong. There really is no point in continuing this thread on Leo's insane idea that the Kerrys support terrorism. The facts of the case prove him wrong and he still clings to his quicksand of a theory. Let him have it.

[Taft]

You, Leo, are what Europe detests about America.

This is a vicious circle.

The far-right has a strong distaste for European mentality and governments (ESPECIALLY France and the French). They spout-off about it constantly. This causes Europeans to (understandably) get angry at the "ugly Americans." This, in turn, gives more ammo to the far-right. "Look," they say, "Europe hate America. We shouldn't appease the EU. Boycott France! The EU is the new enemy."

Some people, for some unexplicable reason, WANT more enemies. They'd be happy to see us formally announce that France is our foe. That we should act against them AND those filthy Russians.

Why anyone would want more enemies is beyond me. Now, on cue, we'll get the classic "we don't WANT more enemies, THEY made themselves our enemies." Whatever.

Scorched earth over all of our "enemies" is the only solution. :rolleyes:

We are all humans. Lets start acting that way.

Taft

[takao]

This is a vicious circle.

The far-right has a strong distaste for European mentality and governments (ESPECIALLY France and the French). They spout-off about it constantly. This causes Europeans to (understandably) get angry at the "ugly Americans." This, in turn, gives more ammo to the far-right. "Look," they say, "Europe hate America. We shouldn't appease the EU. Boycott France! The EU is the new enemy."


you know we have the same far-right ones over here too ;) front national , flams bloc, FPÖ , etc etc.

they can complain a lot but they can do governmental work like it easily can be seen with the austrian FPÖ (the 'F' stands for libertian ..oh the irony): complete incompetence , in the few years where they were governing together with the conservatives they had to exchange every FPÖ minister of their cabinet at least once, some even twice
some because they had to resign ..some because they made mistakes..other because they weren't

but hey ..after the last EU election (where they lost 75% of their voters), i can't see them having another period in the offices ;)