Your take on Piracy......

[idkew]

The Jaguar thread got me going on this one.

Do you think it is ok in some instances to pirate software?

I, for one, do. I am a design student and I use quite a few EXPENSIVE programs to learn my trade. It is not possible to do all my work on university cpu's. I pirate software and LEARN it. I do not see this as a problem. I am making no money from it.

I like to use a cigarette analogy: Philip Morris gives you all the free cigarettes you want for four years. They get you good and hooked. When you graduate college, you no longer get free ciagrettes, so you have to start paying. Sure, the price might be a bit more to make up for the lost income on the free cigarettes, but as long as Philip Morris makes a good product, you will buy it since you are hooked on it. They will more than make up for the short term loss of income in the long run.

Well, Adobe is hooking me on Photoshop, Illustartor, InDesign.... I can no where near afford these programs, but I will eventually pay for them for years when I am using them to earn a living. I see no problem in this.

So, what do you all think?:rolleyes:

[strider42]

I personally take the opinion that I don't mind pirating if its something thats not used very often. If I need a program to do one thing, one time, I don't have a problem getting ahold of the copy to do it. If it something I used all the time, like a game or a very useful program, I feel it would be better to buy the program.

As for the college situation, I can definitley understand that. if you really don't have the money but you need to learn, then you do what you have to do. The minute you start making money with the program, people should definiltey buy it.

Situation doesn't make it legal, its still stealing. The real problem with piracy is with those who steal programs they would have bought it otherwise. Thats where the developers lose money.

[ShaolinMiddleFinger]

be warned...you are treading in flame territory

[MacAztec]

Originally posted by ShaolinMiddleFinger
be warned...you are treading in flame territory

WTF? Nice touble post...heres my middle finger.

I have the same thought of piracy as you strider

[mac15]

Hmmmm arn ain't gonna like this,

we all have just keep shhhh about it

[mymemory]

Well, trading soft is a big issue. I do not care about buying something that I use, but there are serious problems related to piracy that are very hard to resolve.

Software developers companies are letting people coping their software from one point of view. Just imagine, what if there is a imbulnerable copy protection of Photoshop? Almost no one would be able to get it, and what about foreing countries? The problems wold be worst than the solution, just because the US would be segregating the technical development of countries with incomes inferiors than the US.

I mean, that would make the US goverment looks bad politically, even we know would be the right thing, imagine every single graphic designer from Colombia, Ecuador, Peru, Brazil, etc. complaining about the price (the won't call it piracy). I guess most of the developers are aware of those things.

The other thing would be to sell the same software based on the country income, that way would be cheaper to get Photoshop in Venezuela than in the US.

It is a big problem the piracy stuff.

[Mr. Anderson]

piracy is stealing, period.

to say that most users don't do it would be a lie.

I've got several software packages (3) that require hardware dongles - USB plugs - in order to work. The price of software reflects somewhat the security used to keep it from being pirated. Dongles are the best way to insure against piracy - so, how come we don't see more apps going in that direction?

Sure some, like Office for OSX and the Adobe Apps, won't let you run an app with the same serial number on two computers on the same network, but that's not an insurmountable problem. I think software companies take that into consideration as well, they'd do something about piracy if it really was taking its toll on their profits.

Has anyone ever seen anti-piracy inforcement first hand? If you were dealing with one or two apps among friends that's one thing - resale for profit is another.

I'm not condoning it, I'm just trying to discuss the issues.

D

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by idkew
The Jaguar thread got me going on this one.

Do you think it is ok in some instances to pirate software?

I, for one, do. I am a design student and I use quite a few EXPENSIVE programs to learn my trade. It is not possible to do all my work on university cpu's. I pirate software and LEARN it. I do not see this as a problem. I am making no money from it.

I like to use a cigarette analogy: Philip Morris gives you all the free cigarettes you want for four years. They get you good and hooked. When you graduate college, you no longer get free ciagrettes, so you have to start paying. Sure, the price might be a bit more to make up for the lost income on the free cigarettes, but as long as Philip Morris makes a good product, you will buy it since you are hooked on it. They will more than make up for the short term loss of income in the long run.

Well, Adobe is hooking me on Photoshop, Illustartor, InDesign.... I can no where near afford these programs, but I will eventually pay for them for years when I am using them to earn a living. I see no problem in this.

So, what do you all think?:rolleyes:

Ever hear about educational discounts?

The Adobe Design collections cost about $350 and include Photoshop and Illustrator, plus whatever apps are specific to the collection (web = GoLive and LiveMotion, etc.)

If you get Financial Aid the software purchase is more than justified since you're using it for your studies.

[mymemory]

That would be a good price for soft, but that is only in the US.

Just imagine, doing what you do with a 4th of your income? I'm not justifiying anything, my point is that there is a reason why developers do not protect the softwares at their 100%.

My point of view (now that I'm in to international politics) is that 90% of the softwares are produced in the US. So, if every software company uses a 100% anti-piracy method, the US goverment is gonna looks very bad on the eyes of the rest of the world, as is going on with the globalization stuff.

I think is gonna be a very slow process, getting people used to pay for what they use. And I'm sure developers are aware of everything.

For example, there is no way to copy Final Cut Pro 3, why the rest of the developers are not using the same security system? There should be an advantage in piracy. Who knows.

[rainman::|:|]

Originally posted by dukestreet
I've got several software packages (3) that require hardware dongles - USB plugs - in order to work.

two words: dongle emulation :D

I have to agree with what most ppl here have said... Piracy is overlookable in some cases, i think it's wrong to pirate software if you're making money using it, otherwise it's not hellfire & damnation or anything... it's not technically right or anything, nor am i trying to say it is, but come ON, we've all done it one time or another. hell, i was doing it before i knew what it was!! i agree with what mymemory said in another thread, software prices are WAY too high... $700 for photoshop might be fine for a graphics worker making $200,000 a year, but i'm not paying it just to be able to put my face on markie mark's body... hehe

:)
pnw

[idkew]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU


Ever hear about educational discounts?

The Adobe Design collections cost about $350 and include Photoshop and Illustrator, plus whatever apps are specific to the collection (web = GoLive and LiveMotion, etc.)

If you get Financial Aid the software purchase is more than justified since you're using it for your studies.

I can give you my info so you can PayPal me $350. Plus, I need Quark, and I will need the X version when it comes out. I also need Dreamweaver, Freehand... about every creatve app so I can learn them and be marketable. How does $1000 sound?

[Beej]

Originally posted by dukestreet
to say that most users don't do it would be a lie.I'd have to disagree on that one. Most coputer users hardly know how to turn their computer on, let alone find and register pirated software.

The poeple on this site are a very different demographic to your average computer user. We care. Most people don't. We like technology. Many are annoyed by it. We know how to use our computers, where to get pirated software from, and how to register it. Most people don't.

I think you get my point...

[menoinjun]

Well, I agree with what was said before, but I come from a slightly different context.

When I bought my mac, I went out and got the Adobe Design Collection for $400...well worth the money let me tell you.

But now I can't afford the upgrades, and I want OS X compatability. So I pirate the upgrades, and I will buy the full versions when I am finacially capable. I don't completely see it as "ok", but at least I have given SOME money to the company.

Also, the fact that I don't make money on the software is key. But that may all change soon.

-Pete

[menoinjun]

Oh yeah...I forgot...

A coworker from CompUSA was selling illegal copies of Adobe products on Ebay for a while, and it took the feds over a year to catch him. He was procecuted by the feds, and almost sued by Adobe considering the amount of money he made and how much he "took" from Adobe.

Luckily he made it out with a coupe hundred hours of commmunity service, probation, and no million dollar adobe lawsuit.

Close call, but DONT PIRATE IF YOU CAN AVOID IT!!

-Pete

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by idkew
I can give you my info so you can PayPal me $350. Plus, I need Quark, and I will need the X version when it comes out. I also need Dreamweaver, Freehand... about every creatve app so I can learn them and be marketable. How does $1000 sound?

*sigh* Students are always looking for a handout.;)

The Macromedia Studio MX suite (Dreamweaver, Flash, Freehand and Fireworks) is $200 educational price.

Like I said, Financial Aid...it's not just a concept. And then with all the money you make at your job later you can more than afford to pay back your loans. Think of it as an investment.

[idkew]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU


*sigh* Students are always looking for a handout.;)

The Macromedia Studio MX suite (Dreamweaver, Flash, Freehand and Fireworks) is $200 educational price.

Like I said, Financial Aid...it's not just a concept. And then with all the money you make at your job later you can more than afford to pay back your loans. Think of it as an investment.

an extremely short term investment that gives a small rate of return, which is virtually obsolete within a few years. i am not going to get a job b/c of photoshop, but it may help if i know it, and a similar applicant does not.

believe it or not, i can not get financial aid. the gov seems to think my parents can handle all the funding i need. while they may be able to, that does not mean they want to spend a grand on softwares, nor that they should.

and no, i can't make a bunch of cash. i have been a full time student, for the past two years, through the summer and the school year. i work part time, but at minimum wage (pagination & ad design), it no where near covers my beer, not to mention any software.

i do not think you get my point. no where am i saying it is legal or good to pirate, i just, at this point in time, i see it as just. whether the laws agrees does not matter. i don't sell it for profit, i don't profit from it at all.

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by idkew
an extremely short term investment that gives a small rate of return, which is virtually obsolete within a few years. i am not going to get a job b/c of photoshop, but it may help if i know it, and a similar applicant does not.

believe it or not, i can not get financial aid. the gov seems to think my parents can handle all the funding i need. while they may be able to, that does not mean they want to spend a grand on softwares, nor that they should.

and no, i can't make a bunch of cash. i have been a full time student, for the past two years, through the summer and the school year. i work part time, but at minimum wage (pagination & ad design), it no where near covers my beer, not to mention any software.

i do not think you get my point. no where am i saying it is legal or good to pirate, i just, at this point in time, i see it as just. whether the laws agrees does not matter. i don't sell it for profit, i don't profit from it at all.

You're in denial and your priorities are in the wrong place if you're putting beer ahead of other things. ;)

The feds wanted my parents to take out loans, just like your parents. My parents can't because they're still paying back their own loans.

Guess what I did? I took out loans on my own. Shocking, isn't it? You have this option...it's a choice you make.

I have graduated from school and have about $35,000 to pay back. I'm OK with that because I know that my education will provide me with a much better paying job in the future. It's not a negligible investment. It's concrete and statistically proven...it's just difficult to face when you look at the bill.

[arn]

Admin Note:

You guys can talk about piracy in general terms... debate the ethics of it etc... but don't talk about personal specifics, and you're fine.

arn

[Beej]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
*sigh* Students are always looking for a handout.;) That's the definition of a student, isn't it?

[ShaolinMiddleFinger]

Originally posted by MacAztec


WTF? Nice touble post...heres my middle finger.

I have the same thought of piracy as you strider

It's not a t(r)ouble post from me. I've seen alot of people talk about pirating software and they were flamed. It's not coming from me... I'm just telling him to watch out from the others. Sheez....

[big]

>Close call, but DONT PIRATE IF YOU CAN AVOID IT!!

don't sell it..sheeeesh, that guy deserved what he got...How lame.

[Aquanaut]

I have borrowed and shared software with friends and colleagues in the past but there is nothing that I didn't end up buying - an extension of a try-out maybe. I don't approve of pirating - in fact I have made a large part of my living from music and have been ripped off by some pretty large corporations over the years so I can't condone it in anyway.

I have just spent 10 days working in China and some of the street markets and shopping malls (indoor street markets!) there are incredible, especially if you want to buy cheap crap. This wasn't tourist China, more a frontier town kind of China. What shocked me is that I saw thousands of CDs, DVDs, Gameboy cards, computer software, etc. everywhere and not one item was clean. Piracy is massive in the far east and I don't see how they are going to get on top of this (they need to start with introducing some highway laws before they look at anything else). Giving copies to friends for free is small fry compared to where the real, very large scale, problem lies.

[amnesiac1984]

okay photoshop is a lot of money, for personal use it is not worth it, if you could not pirate photoshop many ppl simply would not use it, they wouldn't buy it if you couldn't pirate it so Adobe is not loosing money from EVERYONE who pirates their software.

It is even more relevant to music apps, they are also really expensive and so is all the music equipment you need. If you are setting up a studio and spending mega bucks on equipment then £500 for cubase or logic won't be too much to ask but for a student playing around at home both learning the packages and making some decent music then piracy is often the only option. If that student's music was then heard by some record company A & R man then the student got a record deal he would probably be given a budget of some kind or just paid enough to be able to really splash out on equipment and software.

If it was impossible to pirate software then only the little spoilt rich kids would get even the chance to develop their potential talents leaving the poor kid to maybe never even discover his or her potential, and end up cleaning toilets or somehting. (No offense to any janitors out there) ;)

[amnesiac1984]

Originally posted by Aquanaut

I have just spent 10 days working in China and some of the street markets and shopping malls (indoor street markets!) there are incredible, especially if you want to buy cheap crap. This wasn't tourist China, more a frontier town kind of China. What shocked me is that I saw thousands of CDs, DVDs, Gameboy cards, computer software, etc. everywhere and not one item was clean. Piracy is massive in the far east and I don't see how they are going to get on top of this (they need to start with introducing some highway laws before they look at anything else). Giving copies to friends for free is small fry compared to where the real, very large scale, problem lies.

in Russia, they had a stall selling obviously pirated CD's and DVD's for $2 IN OUR HOTEL. and this was a huge hotel in central St Petersburg!!!!

Then in Moscow, just outside red square there is a massive underground shopping mall. They had a shop at the back selling CD's for $6 (I think they may have ben real tho, with Russia's economy in the states its in ppl could not afford to pay more for CD's so the record company's have to sell them cheap)

[Rower_CPU]

There's another option that people seem to forget:
Taking computer classes.

You can learn a program without having to purchase/steal it, oftentimes for free. Community colleges and centers provide many computer classes for people who are interested.

It's always a choice to pirate. There are options.

[idkew]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
There's another option that people seem to forget:
Taking computer classes.

You can learn a program without having to purchase/steal it, oftentimes for free. Community colleges and centers provide many computer classes for people who are interested.

It's always a choice to pirate. There are options.

i agree with you here, but...

homework often requires after hours working. most college labs are not 24 hours. Where do you finish your project? Kinkos @ 24¢ a minute? i think not.

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by idkew
i agree with you here, but...

homework often requires after hours working. most college labs are not 24 hours. Where do you finish your project? Kinkos @ 24¢ a minute? i think not.

That's a question of logistics, and the requirements of the class. Classes such as these should never assume that the attendants can complete homework assignments at home or outside of class. That would defeat the entire purpose of the class.

[idkew]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU


That's a question of logistics, and the requirements of the class. Classes such as these should never assume that the attendants can complete homework assignments at home or outside of class. That would defeat the entire purpose of the class.

i only wish we lived in this utopia.

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by idkew
i only wish we lived in this utopia.

Yes, I know it's a little optimistic...but it's called the educational process.

Unfortunately, many people forget that and just look at instruction without considering the environment and situation of the learner. I should know, my Master's degree studies are in Educational Technology which deals with this exact thing.

[sturm375]

I see 2 different flavors of software piracy. The first is simply a natural consumer response to the, in some people's opinion, outragous pricing of software. That is to buy one copy, take for instance Windows 98, and load it onto all of their computers. While technically against the EULA, MS never goes after these people, because the few court cases I am aware of, the Judge threw out the EULA. Main reason being, the EULA is inclosed in the packaging of the product. In order to read it, the customer has to open it. Which by the way according to the EULA signifies acceptance of the terms of the EULA. How can a person accept the terms of a legal document without being able to read it first?

The second, more malicious, is distributing the product, either for free, or selling it. A computer store near me, I am not going to name names, bought one copy of Win98, put that copy on all the computers it built, and sold them. MS did go after them, and successfull closed the buisness down untill they paid for legal copies for all who purchase through them. Also falling into that catagory are those who decide that some program is sooo good, everybody should have it for free. You'll find a lot of these on the file sharing sites.

So, while both of these are considered Piracy, only the second is prosecutable(sp?). Where do I stand on these issues? As someone who is in the programming industry, and with asperations of being a hardware seller, I tend to be conservitave. I will do the first of my catagories for a tempary fix, until the funds become availab to make all legal. I will never do the second. I also strongly discourage piracy in all forms. However the recent Jaguar pricing, and discussions, have caused me pause, I still will not pirate.


Words to live by:
Just because something is wrong, doesn't mean that it should be illegal.

Just because something is illeagal, doesn't mean it is wrong.

Free legal advice is worth exactly that: Nothing.:D

[mcrain]

The biggest problem I see with piracy is the choice of venue. I mean, if you are in international waters, and a boat full of pirates decides to board your skiff/yaght/sailboat and commit various crimes of the sea, where do you go for justice. I mean, can the coast guard help out? Do you have to go to some international court? Can the feds try a pirate in U.S. Federal Court?

These questions haunt me at night, and thus, I dream of either faster boats, or just staying feet dry.

This thread has me so paranoid now, that next time I go out I'm going to have to borrow some of BTTM's and Alpha's arsenals. I sure as heck don't want some stinky-fish-oil-covered scumbag with a fast johnboat ruining my day out on the water.

BTW, has anyone heard of pirates on lakes? Do I need to start carrying a gun out with me on some of the lakes here? I mean, lake Michigan is huge, there could be pirates out there. You never know.

[King Cobra]

Right here in Maine there is a lake called Lake Sebago, but that is usually infested with tourists and waterjets. There may be one or two "arrrs" out there... :eek:

Hey, mcrain, I should have a few troops roaming around the area if you want to borrow them! :eek: :D

As far as piracy goes, the safest way to avoid getting caught may be to invest the money in each individual copy of software used. But how many people, especially in buisnesses or in networking builds., can afford all the software for each individual computer? I mean, sure, some people can afford it, but not everyone. I wonder if some small-medium buisnesses with networking and lots of computers may be pirating software like this just to stay in buisness for another few years.

Legally, the law is the law for everyone. But, for some, it is impossible to live by, which probably makes people so desperate that they "need" to pirate or violate the laws of the EULA.

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU


Guess what I did? I took out loans on my own. Shocking, isn't it? You have this option...it's a choice you make.



How old were you when you took out the loans? I have a friend who can't go back to school until he is 25 'cause until his 25th b-day he is "covered" by his parents income in the eyes of financial aid. Even though is parents are in a good amount of debt financial aid still says they make enough to pay for his college. :confused:


Anyway... I don't have a big problem w/non-malicious pirating (try-before-you-buy if you will). Especially w/the no return policy software has w/it. But using using and/or selling a product w/complete disregard to properly compensating the company (and hardworking progammers) that made said product is just wrong in my book.


Lethal

EDIT: spelling

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by LethalWolfe
How old were you when you took out the loans? I have a friend who can't go back to school until he is 25 'cause until his 25th b-day he is "covered" by his parents income in the eyes of financial aid. Even though is parents are in a good amount of debt financial aid still says they make enough to pay for his college. :confused:


Anyway... I don't have a big problem w/non-malicious pirating (try-before-you-buy if you will). Especially w/the no return policy software has w/it. But using using and/or selling a product w/complete disregard to properly compensating the company (and hardworking progammers) that made said product is just wrong in my book.


Lethal

EDIT: spelling

I was 19 when I took my first loans. I had loans every year up until last year, when I was still 23.

My parents were told to apply for loans, then once they got denied for them I was able to take them on my own.

[topicolo]

What about abandonware? I mean, some programs and games are so old that they're not sold anymore, does that mean that people are able to distribute them? I think so. If a company has given up on selling a program, then they shouldn't restrict people from distributing them. After all, they're not losing money.

[sturm375]

Originally posted by topicolo
What about abandonware? I mean, some programs and games are so old that they're not sold anymore, does that mean that people are able to distribute them? I think so. If a company has given up on selling a program, then they shouldn't restrict people from distributing them. After all, they're not losing money.

The letter of the law would probably say:

Contact the publisher of the software you suspect is "abandonware". If they say yes, go ahead. If they say no, I wouldn't. If they aren't around anymore, see if somebody else now holds the copyright, and contact them. If you can't get in contact with anyone holding the copyright, they go ahead.


However I wouldn't worry about it, and spread the program to all who want it.

[Huked on Fonick]

The corts a while back ruled that i was legal to make copies of songs for personal/non business use(giveing a copy to friends etc)

i use this same view with software... I will by it and install it on everycomputer i own.. Like windows if microsuck thinks that i am gona by a 200 dollar version of windows XP pro for each of my computers there NUTS same as office....if a friend of mine wants to borrow it sur ei will let him borrow it...... where i have a problem is people distrubing other companys software and stuff (hardcopy or over the internet) this is just wrong. Those companys spent alot of money doing R and D on those products and they get non of it....... i also dont like corperations who dont by licesences it part of being a company u expect people to do the same for you.. i think for home use its fine.. I am not gona pay 200 dollars and it on some computer that might not even be worth that much......I think that most companys would feel this way to. they mainly care about corperations and internet dist.... i dont think they really give 2 cent aobut personl copting because this hardly makes up any money and most people would just not by it for more than 1 computer.......

[djwoolf]

Amnesiac1984 i am outraged at your stance on piracy....
As a fellow musiciani annot believe you would take such a stance!
Its like this folks...
Software like music is the collection of some ones time and creational energy, it obviously took some one or some ppl alot of effort to create something from start to finish. I understand that software is expensive but i quess ppl dont feel good in knowing they did the right thing anymore. I know how hard it is im a student is well i go for 16 hrs at the unversity an i work 25 to 30 hrs a week in retail. I take great satisfaction that i dont borrow money and that anything i buy is mine and mine alone. Gow up folks work whle going to school it help build character and mommy and daddy wonk pay for thing later so get a job! Amnesiac1984 how would you like some one to pirate your stuff and make money or gain presige from it? And there are some great dicounts to be had in music software I got Finale 2002 for $99 and its normally $400 hows that for a students discount and it is the full version!