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krimson
Aug 12, 2004, 11:12 AM
600 lb Woman Grows to Couch, Dies

STUART, Fla. (AP) -- A dramatic rescue ended tragically in Stuart, Florida, a rescue so difficult firefighters say they have never seen anything like it.

It happened late Tuesday night and early Wednesday morning at the home of a 600-pound woman who was having trouble breathing. Rescuers went in not knowing how difficult it would be to get her out. 40-year-old Gail Grinds was literally stuck to her couch and had to be removed surgically at the hospital.

Authorities estimate she had been on the couch anywhere from two to five years.

...
Full Story (http://www.katc.com/Global/story.asp?S=2163373&nav=EyAzPmJY)


This completely stunned me. I can't even imagine how this could have happened.

emw
Aug 12, 2004, 11:20 AM
Somebody had to feed her, right? She didn't get off the couch for 5 years! How do people do these things...?

jsw
Aug 12, 2004, 11:21 AM
I thought it was a hoax. But the site and the picture seem genuine. My God. Someone had to be providing her with food and drink. Who made the call, I wonder?

kgarner
Aug 12, 2004, 11:32 AM
Her skin was grafted to the fabric! I just can't imagine how someone lets themselves go like this. Very sad to hear.

yellow
Aug 12, 2004, 11:34 AM
Erm.. how did she.. um... remove waste from her meatbag?

friarbayliff
Aug 12, 2004, 11:40 AM
Ugh, that's simply awful. Don't we just love the whacko nutjobs who occupy this rock with us and let people get grafted to a couch? Seriously, WTF :confused:

krimson
Aug 12, 2004, 11:47 AM
Erm.. how did she.. um... remove waste from her meatbag?

well, there was that overwhelming stench... :(

Mord
Aug 12, 2004, 11:53 AM
thats like 5 of me combined welded to a coutch, i do know someone who doesn't move from his bedroom unless he is forced he's very lucky that he has the metabolism that he has otherwise he would suffer the same fate.

gwuMACaddict
Aug 12, 2004, 11:53 AM
:eek: :eek: :eek:

gawwwd... creepy...

i didnt think that was possible...

yellow
Aug 12, 2004, 11:55 AM
Hmm, maybe it was 400lbs of poop in her pants..

Mr. Anderson
Aug 12, 2004, 11:58 AM
Whoa, that's just not right....no doubt a crime scene - you have to wonder how anyone else could live in the house if the smell was that bad....

truly sad story,

D

Counterfit
Aug 12, 2004, 12:12 PM
Whoa, that's just not right....no doubt a crime scene - you have to wonder how anyone else could live in the house if the smell was that bad....

truly sad story,

D I would assume that she got used to it over time...

BornAgainMac
Aug 12, 2004, 12:20 PM
2 to 5 years. What about a shower or bathroom? No job? No life?

MacAztec
Aug 12, 2004, 12:33 PM
The mystery is how this women obtained her food. Was she eating the couch? Was she eating her own feces? What did she do for sex? Maybe she had kitties, but I am sure they ran away due to the awful stench, or, she ate them. Stranger than life. Does anyone else think she had mental problems?

yellow
Aug 12, 2004, 12:38 PM
Does anyone else think she had mental problems?

Possibly an eating disorder..

wide
Aug 12, 2004, 12:42 PM
The mystery is how this women obtained her food. Was she eating the couch? Was she eating her own feces? What did she do for sex? Maybe she had kitties, but I am sure they ran away due to the awful stench, or, she ate them. Stranger than life. Does anyone else think she had mental problems?

rofl...

this might help for anyone interested:

The 900 Club
http://www.dimensionsmagazine.com/dimtext/kjn/people/heaviest.htm

NOTE: unfortunately, the link is down at this time (1:41 PM EST 8/12/04)

EDIT: LINK WORKS

rainman::|:|
Aug 12, 2004, 12:53 PM
Uh, people that are morbidly obese don't worry about sex. And often they don't worry about jobs. Disability.

This isn't the worst case I've heard of, tho the uniqueness of "grafting" to a sofa makes it pretty bizarre...

I knew a woman around 600lbs once, she had stomach surgery, but her weight problem meant her body simply stopped healing. So until she died, she had a hole in her stomach, straight into her internal organs... had to be packed with medicine, gauze, and ice several times a day. The smell that came out of that hole... *shudder*. (i knew her because she was psychologically abusing her daughter, who went to school with me, so we tried to help get her out of the house whenever possible).

I know a guy right now that's about 550 or so, he's still mobile however. His lungs are starting to be crushed, and he has a staph infection right now-- his life is in danger. If he doesn't get stomach reduction surgery soon, he will die, but he has to lose 100lbs before they can safely perform the surgery. Doesn't stop him from eating 3 whoppers as "a snack".

Morbid obesity is one condition I doubt i'll ever understand, psychologically.

paul

Foucault
Aug 12, 2004, 01:16 PM
How the hell did she go to the bathroom? I mean if her body has welded with the couch, she can't even roll to the bathroom. So she pretty much has to crap on herself. Can you imagine the stench of it all? The person who has been feeding her all this time should be prosecuted for second degree murder. I mean she was pretty much fed to death...

wdlove
Aug 12, 2004, 04:47 PM
I saw this story on our local news last evening. A very sad situation, hardly the words to describe this. I agree someone had to know about this lady. According to reports if found that person or persons will be prosecuted. I just imagine that the surgery was just too hard on her heart along with the fluid loss that must have occurred. Probably also had an infection. :(

STITCHES
Aug 12, 2004, 04:53 PM
This one says 480 :confused: http://www.wftv.com/news/3643877/detail.html

jsw
Aug 12, 2004, 05:06 PM
This one says 480 :confused: http://www.wftv.com/news/3643877/detail.htmlIt also gives her height as under 5 feet. 480 pounds or 600 - either one is equally amazing for anyone - especially someone that short. Amazing. I just can't believe she didn't move in all those years.

pdpfilms
Aug 12, 2004, 05:47 PM
God bless america....my home sweet home...ugh.

Mord
Aug 12, 2004, 06:32 PM
This one says 480 :confused: http://www.wftv.com/news/3643877/detail.html

suppose it depends on weather you count the sofa as part of her or not

James L
Aug 12, 2004, 06:51 PM
Speaking as a paramedic guys, this isn't all that uncommon. This one just made the news, that's all.

...sad.

virividox
Aug 12, 2004, 09:28 PM
that is truly sad and disgusting, and the thing is someone needed to enable her to continue living that way. are they mad?

broken_keyboard
Aug 12, 2004, 10:35 PM
What a digusting fat beast of a woman. I'm glad she's dead.

jsw
Aug 12, 2004, 10:41 PM
What a digusting fat beast of a woman. I'm glad she's dead.Well, you are certainly full of sympathy, aren't you? :rolleyes:

You are actually happy that she died? Really? Because she was presumably tormented by her life as it was, or simply because she disgusted you?

Do you want all people you find disgusting to die?

musicpyrite
Aug 12, 2004, 11:03 PM
Well, you are certainly full of sympathy, aren't you? :rolleyes:

You are actually happy that she died? Really? Because she was presumably tormented by her life as it was, or simply because she disgusted you?

Do you want all people you find disgusting to die?

I can understand his/her angle.

A 600 pound woman sitting on a couch for god know how long, eating, ****ing her pants all day long, not contributing to the community in any way what so ever is not something most people want to see and smell. :eek:

But I do agree that wishing she was dead was a little on the harsh side.

By the way, jsw, what's up with your avatar? Now it's harder for me to distinguish you from the newbies and members.

yellow
Aug 12, 2004, 11:07 PM
What a digusting fat beast of a woman. I'm glad she's dead.

That's pretty harsh. I hope you get enough iodine.

broken_keyboard
Aug 12, 2004, 11:24 PM
You are actually happy that she died? Really? Because she was presumably tormented by her life as it was, or simply because she disgusted you?

I'm happy she died because it reminds me of Jabba dying and that reminds me of Leia in a gold bikini.

Do you want all people you find disgusting to die?

Pretty much.

madrobby
Aug 12, 2004, 11:32 PM
A 600 pound woman sitting on a couch for god know how long, eating, ****ing her pants all day long, not contributing to the community in any way what so ever is not something most people want to see and smell.

Comments like this make me feel sick. Don't you have any respect for human life? And think about this woman just for a moment - doesn't it occur to you that she *might* have had a mental illness? 5 years on the couch? Hm?

So, if you have a mental illness, would you:

A) Like that people care about you, even if you can't help yourself?

or

B) Like people to judge you on how you smell?

musicpyrite
Aug 12, 2004, 11:33 PM
I'm happy she died because it reminds me of Jabba dying and that reminds me of Leia in a gold bikini.


Nice. :cool:

windowsblowsass
Aug 12, 2004, 11:34 PM
The mystery is how this women obtained her food. ~snip~ What did she do for sex? Maybe she had kitties, but I am sure they ran away due to the awful stench, or, she ate them.


KITTIEs :D fomcrofllmao

bviz2
Aug 12, 2004, 11:37 PM
This is just disturbing. I can't imaging growing to a piece of furniture.

A friend just pointed this one out to me:

http://www.argusleader.com/news/Tuesdayarticle2.shtml

Nebraskan tries to lose 772 pounds to stay alive

Following McKennan plan may be final hope

For Patrick Deuel, who in June checked into a Sioux Falls hospital weighing an almost inconceivable 1,072 pounds, a downward spiral is a welcome twist in a life plagued by obesity.

Deuel, 42 and slightly less than 6 feet tall, has stuck to a 1,200-calorie-a-day diet and dropped 321 pounds so far at Avera McKennan. In the next 18 months to two years, the plan is to gradually shed another 450 or more pounds, all under the careful supervision of a team of eight doctors and several nurses.

musicpyrite
Aug 12, 2004, 11:40 PM
Comments like this make me feel sick. Don't you have any respect for human life? And think about this woman just for a moment - doesn't it occur to you that she *might* have had a mental illness? 5 years on the couch? Hm?

So, if you have a mental illness, would you:

A) Like that people care about you, even if you can't help yourself?

or

B) Like people to judge you on how you smell?

No, it's not that I don't have any respect for human life. And I am truly sorry for what happened to this lady and what she had to go through, but if she had a mental illness, she should have gotten treatment for it. Yes I know that the questions will pop up "how can she get help if she is mentally ill?" Well she must have had someone that was taking care of her, after all, who keeps 5 years worth of food within arms reach?

But also, let me tell you that I do not have much sympathy for people who have no job (and are perfectly capable of getting one**) that sit at home collecting a welfare check. Or for people who seldom/never contribute to the community.

**This does NOT include people with mental/physical dissabilites, life threating deseases, and yada yada yada.

broken_keyboard
Aug 12, 2004, 11:41 PM
Comments like this make me feel sick. Don't you have any respect for human life?

In all fairness to the poster, I think it was the fat woman who had no respect for human life.

Also, I wonder how they will dispose of her? Because I think the door on the cremator machine might not be wide enough. I guess it will have to be a humungous grave? :confused:

musicpyrite
Aug 12, 2004, 11:45 PM
Also, I wonder how they will dispose of her? Because I think the door on the cremator machine might not be wide enough. I guess it will have to be a humungous grave? :confused:

You have crossed the line my friend.

:( :mad: :mad:

broken_keyboard
Aug 12, 2004, 11:51 PM
You have crossed the line my friend.

:( :mad: :mad:

C'mon... it was a serious question. I bet there are people right now puzzling how to do it.

Abstract
Aug 12, 2004, 11:58 PM
A 600 pound woman sitting on a couch for god know how long, eating, ****ing her pants all day long, not contributing to the community in any way what so ever is not something most people want to see and smell. :eek:


That was a pretty dumb thing to say as well. Something that most people don't want to see and smell doesn't mean that she deserves to die because of it. I don't like greedy people, or Broken_Keyboard, but do I wish death upon them?

Apple //e
Aug 13, 2004, 12:20 AM
In all fairness to the poster, I think it was the fat woman who had no respect for human life. :

as many jenny jones guests have said

"girl, you gotta respect yourself. cuz if you dont, noone will"

<rounds of applause>

broken_keyboard
Aug 13, 2004, 01:57 AM
Will she go to furniture heaven or human heaven?

MacFan26
Aug 13, 2004, 05:39 AM
A pretty sad story I'd say. People are saying they are happy that she died, well, I wouldn't say that, but don't you think this put her out of her misery? I mean, I suppose if she was suffering from illness, she just didn't understand, but uh, I'm not sure I'd want to live if I was attached to a couch. Reminds me of that Gilbert Grape movie or, whatever the name was.

yellow
Aug 13, 2004, 06:48 AM
Will she go to furniture heaven or human heaven?

Seriously, stop eating salt and shellfish..

jsw
Aug 13, 2004, 07:42 AM
A pretty sad story I'd say. People are saying they are happy that she died, well, I wouldn't say that, but don't you think this put her out of her misery? I mean, I suppose if she was suffering from illness, she just didn't understand, but uh, I'm not sure I'd want to live if I was attached to a couch. Reminds me of that Gilbert Grape movie or, whatever the name was.Don't get me wrong - I think she was suffering and is better off now, out of pain and misery. I just think that broken_keyboard stepped over a line by being "glad she's dead".

Les Kern
Aug 13, 2004, 07:50 AM
How the hell did she go to the bathroom? I mean if her body has welded with the couch, she can't even roll to the bathroom. So she pretty much has to crap on herself. Can you imagine the stench of it all? The person who has been feeding her all this time should be prosecuted for second degree murder. I mean she was pretty much fed to death...

The story goes further: "Family members today said they tried to care for her, but lost the flippin' paddle a few years ago, and a new one is on back-order."

That's in reference to a Simpsons episode. Now before I'm pounced on, please know that I am NOT this guy:
Originally Posted by broken_keyboard
What a digusting fat beast of a woman. I'm glad she's dead.

Humour, on the other hand, is a way to deal with things like this. There is suffering EVERYWHERE, and reacting to ALL of it can destroy the soul. There is not such a fine line between the occasional wisecrack and a reply that is simply evil.

emw
Aug 13, 2004, 08:50 AM
Why are you so afraid to judge this woman? She is exactly what I said she was - a digusting fat beast. That is simply a correct identification, like saying the sky is blue.

I don't think that "afraid to judge" is the problem. Perhaps we are not so quick to judge based on the extremely limited facts in the case. Saying the sky is blue is based on long-term observation (although the sky isn't always blue, now is it?)

Was she mentally ill? Probably.

Was she mistreated by those around her? Most likely.

Did she intentionally become this way through organized thought or planning? Don't know, but probably not.

All in all, judging someone, or a situation, based on such limited information is shortsighted.

yellow
Aug 13, 2004, 08:57 AM
I think pity is more socially acceptable then contempt.

mj_1903
Aug 13, 2004, 08:59 AM
Someone who eats themselves to death is making a choice. Is someone who commits suicide because they are dying of cancer evil?

I only think she would be evil if she purposely and knowingly helped destroy the lives of others through her actions. Was she? We will never know. Its more than likely she just had a mental disease. She cannot help that in anyway.

I don't think its anyone's call to judge someone, but Broken_Keyboard, you did overstep the line. Wishing someone's death is not morally correct and cannot be justified, especially in this instance.

broken_keyboard
Aug 13, 2004, 09:31 AM
I don't think its anyone's call to judge someone, but Broken_Keyboard, you did overstep the line. Wishing someone's death is not morally correct and cannot be justified, especially in this instance.

I didn't wish her dead, she was already dead. All I said was I was glad she had died. Glad someone evil and life-hating was dead. That is an absolutely proper response.

BTW, I don't think it's valid to compare to the cancer patient... What you are doing there is isolating the fact of choice and dropping all the other factors. But we must keep in mind that it is only a mental isolation, and that in reality all those factors are together. So in reality it is a different situation.

broken_keyboard
Aug 13, 2004, 09:38 AM
I don't think that "afraid to judge" is the problem. Perhaps we are not so quick to judge based on the extremely limited facts in the case. Saying the sky is blue is based on long-term observation (although the sky isn't always blue, now is it?)

Was she mentally ill? Probably.

Was she mistreated by those around her? Most likely.

Did she intentionally become this way through organized thought or planning? Don't know, but probably not.

All in all, judging someone, or a situation, based on such limited information is shortsighted.

None of these things were mentioned in the article. I made my deductions based on the facts I was given, and what are you making them on? Your own imagination.

You can't make stuff up and then attempt to use it to invalidate someone's argument.

jsw
Aug 13, 2004, 10:29 AM
None of these things were mentioned in the article. I made my deductions based on the facts I was given, and what are you making them on? Your own imagination.

You can't make stuff up and then attempt to use it to invalidate someone's argument.
Well, first of all, I didn't see emw making any deductions at all. Simply guessing likelihoods. Second, which argument "based on the facts" in the article is it, exactly, which you feel was being invalidated?

jsw
Aug 13, 2004, 10:30 AM
Glad someone evil and life-hating was dead. That is an absolutely proper response.
Sorry, but which sentence in the article stated factually that this woman was evil and life-hating? I'd hate for you to be making stuff up.

James L
Aug 13, 2004, 10:32 AM
You make a comment akin to "what a fat bitch, I am happy she is dead", then you mock her burial arrangments.

You know NOTHING about this persons medical history. You don't know what put her in that situation, and as much as close minded, ignorant people would like to say "she ate herself to death" you have no idea what the underlying etiology may have been.

So yes, I would glady sit with an ill person and comfort them ANY day of the week then to listen to a close minded, presumptious person such as yourself who simply states, while people are mourning her death, that he is happy it occured.

Someone mentioned pity is more socially acceptable than contempt... a great comment.

rainman::|:|
Aug 13, 2004, 10:52 AM
i'm not above being glad people are dead. there are many people that spring to mind that i'm glad are dead. There are many people that i *will* be glad when are dead, and some whose graves i'm planning on pissing on. In fact, there is one person whose grave i *did* piss on after she died. But, no way am i going to say i'm glad that someone i don't even know is dead... there are way too many unknowns. Certainly mental illness was a huge factor here, and i am sympathetic to the mentally ill. Having gone through dehabilitating mental illness myself, i can know what it means to have something that's "all in your head" control your life. As i said earlier, i do not understand the pathology of those who become morbidly obese, but far be it from me to condemn them. So, broken_keyboard, even an ******* like me thinks you went too far.

paul

yellow
Aug 13, 2004, 11:58 AM
Someone mentioned pity is more socially acceptable than contempt... a great comment.

Thank you.

broken_keyboard
Aug 13, 2004, 12:14 PM
Well, first of all, I didn't see emw making any deductions at all. Simply guessing likelihoods. Second, which argument "based on the facts" in the article is it, exactly, which you feel was being invalidated?

He decided I was being short-sighted by not considering the possibilities of mental illness or abuse. But he has no evidence of these possibilities beyond his own assertion. Therefore I can not rationally take them in to account in forming my opinion of her.

broken_keyboard
Aug 13, 2004, 12:15 PM
Sorry, but which sentence in the article stated factually that this woman was evil and life-hating? I'd hate for you to be making stuff up.

The whole article. Someone who loves life and thinks it is the greatest thing ever does not stay on the couch and eat themselves to the point of immobility. Again, there is no evidence of mental illness, all we have is a person who is in that state, and the causal knowledge that humans must eat to gain weight. That is what we have to work with in forming our evaluation.

broken_keyboard
Aug 13, 2004, 12:22 PM
You make a comment akin to "what a fat bitch, I am happy she is dead", then you mock her burial arrangments.

You know NOTHING about this persons medical history. You don't know what put her in that situation, and as much as close minded, ignorant people would like to say "she ate herself to death" you have no idea what the underlying etiology may have been.

So yes, I would glady sit with an ill person and comfort them ANY day of the week then to listen to a close minded, presumptious person such as yourself who simply states, while people are mourning her death, that he is happy it occured.

Someone mentioned pity is more socially acceptable than contempt... a great comment.

So because I just evaluate the facts as I see them, that makes me closed minded? Well if being open minded means I have to mix up the facts with someone else's imaginings before evaluating, then you can keep that method, because it is incorrect. You can focus on what's socially acceptable if you want, but I will focus on reality.

rainman::|:|
Aug 13, 2004, 12:38 PM
broken_keyboard, are you suggesting that we may not infer mental illness based on actions, especially post-humously? Because that would be devistating to the scientific and historical communities, which have done this very thing for years. After a person has died, their behaviour can indeed be analyzed for symptoms of mental illness, and she showed at least two symptoms: Obesity, and not moving about in a normal manner.

If we can't infer mental illness, we likewise cannot infer any other motive, including having "...so little regard for human life as to eat themselves to death". Where did it say in the article that she had no regard for her own life?

You can judge people all you want, but a lot of people just judged you for doing it. That you're debating them lends to you not enjoying this judgement from people that know nothing about you. Think about it.

paul

emw
Aug 13, 2004, 01:19 PM
He decided I was being short-sighted by not considering the possibilities of mental illness or abuse. But he has no evidence of these possibilities beyond his own assertion. Therefore I can not rationally take them in to account in forming my opinion of her.

So your contention is that it is quite likely that a person who is completely rational and of sound mind would choose to live in the conditions in which she lived? And, in fact, plan to become that way?

Your contention is also that the people who provided her the food and enabled her to arrive at this point were not guilty of mistreating her?

The facts of this article are essentially that she was overweight and died as a result of her weight and immobility. From this you have inferred that she is life-hating, that she is evil, and that she is deserving of our contempt and ridicule.

Based on experience with a large number of various human beings (who would not consider this to be normal behavior), I think that my assertion that there is some likelihood that she was mentally ill is less a leap of logic than your contention that she was evil.

emw
Aug 13, 2004, 01:21 PM
So because I just evaluate the facts as I see them, that makes me closed minded?

Of course not. Evaluating facts based on personal experience is perfectly normal, and it's what all of us has done. In fact, some of your comments have been reasonable, believe it or not.

What makes you close-minded is your apparent refusal to accept any other possibilities beyond those which you've already dreamt up.

wdlove
Aug 13, 2004, 01:53 PM
I agree that we all view the facts from our own life experiences. In this situation we don't know all the facts. I think that we can all agree that this is a very sad situation. It is clear that she is in a better place now. She didd not deserve the situation that she was found under. Someone had to be aware of what was happening to her. That person had options, they will have to live the rest of their life with what they did or didn't do for this lady.

stevehaslip
Aug 13, 2004, 05:42 PM
Its sad and disturbing that this could happen.

voicegy
Aug 13, 2004, 10:23 PM
This completely stunned me. I can't even imagine how this could have happened.

Horrible story. How could people do that to themselves, ick, gross, yada yada.

Hey, krimson - really DIG your 'tar...one of my favorite movies! :eek:

broken_keyboard
Aug 14, 2004, 12:41 AM
If we can't infer mental illness, we likewise cannot infer any other motive, including having "...so little regard for human life as to eat themselves to death". Where did it say in the article that she had no regard for her own life?

But I do not infer it from her obesity - I infer it from the rest of her, from the fact that she is a human being. Human beings have free will. To assert that this faculty was compromised requires additional evidence.

People just want to believe she must have been mentally ill, because it is such a horrible thought otherwise. But wanting to believe is not evidence.

As the saying goes, we musn't confuse the dead with saints.

James L
Aug 14, 2004, 01:30 AM
You can focus on what's socially acceptable if you want, but I will focus on reality.


Dude, what do you do for a living? I work as a paramedic, teacher, and as a volunteer counsellor. I have witnessed death, disease, tragedy, life, suffering, birth, joy, love, etc a thousand times more than the average person has. I don't focus on reality, I LIVE reality, and help others through it on a daily basis.

broken_keyboard
Aug 14, 2004, 03:46 AM
Dude, what do you do for a living? I work as a paramedic, teacher, and as a volunteer counsellor. I have witnessed death, disease, tragedy, life, suffering, birth, joy, love, etc a thousand times more than the average person has. I don't focus on reality, I LIVE reality, and help others through it on a daily basis.

James, what I do for a living is not relevant to the facts of the case. If it was, the coroners to-do list would read:

1. examine the brain
2. examine the heart
3. examine the legs
4. examine the torso
5. find out the occupation of broken_keyboard on macrumors

homerjward
Aug 14, 2004, 09:32 AM
Speaking as a paramedic guys, this isn't all that uncommon. This one just made the news, that's all.

...sad.


wtf??!!

James L
Aug 14, 2004, 11:10 AM
wtf??!!


Would you care to elaborate?

James L
Aug 14, 2004, 11:18 AM
James, what I do for a living is not relevant to the facts of the case. If it was, the coroners to-do list would read:

1. examine the brain
2. examine the heart
3. examine the legs
4. examine the torso
5. find out the occupation of broken_keyboard on macrumors


You said:

You can focus on what's socially acceptable if you want, but I will focus on reality.


I would like to know what you do to give you your perspective on reality. From my perspective, occupation, hobbies, upbring, education, etc ALL play a relevant role. When it comes to somebody with a significant medical emergency who died a tragic death, I will put a LOT more stock into someone who works in the medical profession, or emergency services, than in what a smug 19 year old student or Bob the accountant have to say.

Those people know very little about the REALITY of a situation like this. They haven't watched the person die. They haven't seen the rescuers struggle to save this person. They haven't watched the family grieve. And, they sure as hell haven't earned the right to carelessly state "What a fat bitch, I am happy she is dead".

If people have lived those experiences like the group I mentioned above, they have earned the right to say whatever they want. They have at least LIVED the reality, as you call it.

So, broken_keyboard, I simply ask what your background is to decide whether you come from a realistic point of view (you have seen it, worked in it, grieved death, etc), or whether you come from an unrealistic view (never been around it at all). If you have and you choose to make such callous statments then so be it, if you haven't then you don't have the first clue as to what the reality, which you accuse me of not knowing, of a situation like this is.

Cheers!

broken_keyboard
Aug 14, 2004, 12:02 PM
So, broken_keyboard, I simply ask what your background is to decide whether you come from a realistic point of view (you have seen it, worked in it, grieved death, etc), or whether you come from an unrealistic view (never been around it at all). If you have and you choose to make such callous statments then so be it, if you haven't then you don't have the first clue as to what the reality, which you accuse me of not knowing, of a situation like this is.


You said:


Someone mentioned pity is more socially acceptable than contempt... a great comment


I took that to mean that even if you knew it was proper to feel contempt for someone, you would ignore that fact and feel pity instead, just to gain the acceptance of your peers.

In other words, you would willingly put others feelings above your own perception of reality. That is why I said:


You can focus on what's socially acceptable if you want, but I will focus on reality.


I wasn't saying you don't know your job, I was making a much wider point about the importance of not being a hypocrite in one's life - of not pretending to feel what you don't to gain social acceptance. I thought it was perfectly clear, I don't know why I always have to break things down in to baby steps.

slughead
Aug 14, 2004, 12:24 PM
Broken_keyboard is hilarious, pin a medal on that man!

Personally, whenever I hear about these cases of massive self-destruction, I just plain don't care.

I mean, they didn't care about their lives, why should we?

Going nuts over the daily victim is not what makes people successes in life. Life is riddled with problems, just try to make the most of it and don't get so emotionally attached to tragedy. Laugh about it, ignore it, make a buck off it, do what you have to do but for God's sake don't get emotional.

yellow
Aug 14, 2004, 01:05 PM
I took that to mean that even if you knew it was proper to feel contempt for someone, you would ignore that fact and feel pity instead, just to gain the acceptance of your peers.

Contempt is borne of arrogance, disdain, and hate. Pity is borne of compassion, sadness, and sympathy. Compassion is certainly more socially acceptable then hate. Your complete compassionless disregard for this woman's pitiable state is astounding. It says something about you. You are completely allowed to express your opinion. It makes me wonder what will be said at your funeral.

He sure was a hard@$$.
Yep, he told it like it was. He was really grounded in reality.
Yeah.. 3 ex-wives is about as real as it gets. Plus that thyroid problem.
Too bad about the auto-erotic asphyxiation thing. Tough way to go.
Yeah.. kinky.. wanna go get a beer and a steak?

broken_keyboard
Aug 14, 2004, 01:43 PM
Contempt is borne of arrogance, disdain, and hate. Pity is borne of compassion, sadness, and sympathy. Compassion is certainly more socially acceptable then hate. Your complete compassionless disregard for this woman's pitiable state is astounding. It says something about you. You are completely allowed to express your opinion. It makes me wonder what will be said at your funeral.

He sure was a hard@$$.
Yep, he told it like it was. He was really grounded in reality.
Yeah.. 3 ex-wives is about as real as it gets. Plus that thyroid problem.
Too bad about the auto-erotic asphyxiation thing. Tough way to go.
Yeah.. kinky.. wanna go get a beer and a steak?

You are wrong - contempt and compassion are both aspects of the wider concept of justice. Justice means that you praise the good when you see it, and you condemn the evil. If you only praise the good you are being logically inconsistent. You are doing an injustice to the good.

emw
Aug 14, 2004, 01:56 PM
People just want to believe she must have been mentally ill, because it is such a horrible thought otherwise. But wanting to believe is not evidence.

Ah, but wanting to believe she is evil is okay?

I've got no problem with your belief that she is evil, life-hating, and deserving of contempt. There are no more facts to back your claim than there are to back claims of mental illness, brain damage, alien abduction, or some truth-or-dare game gone horribly wrong.

As for contempt and compassion being part of justice - how so? Justice is a process in which society sets boundaries of behavior. Those that go outside those boundaries are subject to penalties set by that society. Contempt and compassion should not be a part of justice.

broken_keyboard
Aug 14, 2004, 02:35 PM
There are no more facts to back your claim than there are to back claims of mental illness, brain damage, alien abduction, or some truth-or-dare game gone horribly wrong.


I already answered that in my reply to paulwhannel. She is not the floating abstraction "obesity" - she is a full human being, with other attributes we can use to reason from.


As for contempt and compassion being part of justice - how so? Justice is a process in which society sets boundaries of behavior. Those that go outside those boundaries are subject to penalties set by that society. Contempt and compassion should not be a part of justice.

Justice is the pattern of rewarding the good for being the good and condemning the bad for being the bad. It is a wider concept than just the courts - it covers the behaviour of individuals in their everyday actions. For example if you have two employees, one who is very hard working and conscientious, and another who is lazy and you give the pay raise to the lazy one - you have done an injustice.

yellow
Aug 14, 2004, 05:39 PM
You are wrong - contempt and compassion are both aspects of the wider concept of justice. Justice means that you praise the good when you see it, and you condemn the evil. If you only praise the good you are being logically inconsistent. You are doing an injustice to the good.

Apparently my version of evil and good depart significantly from yours.

emw
Aug 14, 2004, 06:10 PM
She is not the floating abstraction "obesity" - she is a full human being, with other attributes we can use to reason from.

Exactly. Reason (and experience) would tell us that someone who gets into this position is no more likely to be evil than to be a victim of evil.

Justice is the pattern of rewarding the good for being the good and condemning the bad for being the bad. It is a wider concept than just the courts - it covers the behaviour of individuals in their everyday actions. For example if you have two employees, one who is very hard working and conscientious, and another who is lazy and you give the pay raise to the lazy one - you have done an injustice.

I said nothing about courts. If you're going to correct me, get it right. I said that justice is a part of our societal boudaries - legal, ethical, whatever. You said nothing new - you merely extrapolated what I said to get to "society says bad people should be punished and good people should be rewarded."

Your turn.

broken_keyboard
Aug 15, 2004, 02:08 AM
Exactly. Reason (and experience) would tell us that someone who gets into this position is no more likely to be evil than to be a victim of evil.

But I do not base my conclusion on statistics (on what is more or less likely based on experience), I base it on the law of cause and effect.

We know that there is something in the identity of humans which causes us to have free will. The article states that she is a human (woman). To assert that she does not have free will, despite being a human, one would have to show that there is something else in her identity which is impeding this function. There is no mention of the something else in the article.

The people who assert the mythical something else, and me, are not on an equal epistemological footing. I am right and they are wrong.



I said nothing about courts. If you're going to correct me, get it right. I said that justice is a part of our societal boudaries - legal, ethical, whatever. You said nothing new - you merely extrapolated what I said to get to "society says bad people should be punished and good people should be rewarded."

Your turn.

But I do not regard ethics as a social concept. Even if you were alone on a desert island, there would still be good and evil actions. The good is that which helps you live and the evil is that which disregards it. I do not regard what "society says" to be a valid form of knowledge. A million people can be wrong just as easily as one - just ask the long suffering Jewish people.

You are making the same mistake here in both halves of your post. In the first half you assumed I was using sheer numbers to determine the true. In the second half you stated that sheer numbers determine the good. They determine neither. Oh well, at least you are consistent in your wrongness.

yellow
Aug 15, 2004, 02:22 AM
The good is that which helps you live and the evil is that which disregards it.

That is terrible. If you were on a desert island and there were others there on the island competing with you for food and water, killing them would help you live, but that is NOT good, no matter ow you slice it. That is selfish. That is arrogant. You must be a lawyer or an M.D. Period.

broken_keyboard
Aug 15, 2004, 03:23 AM
That is terrible. If you were on a desert island and there were others there on the island competing with you for food and water, killing them would help you live, but that is NOT good, no matter ow you slice it. That is selfish. That is arrogant. You must be a lawyer or an M.D. Period.

I do not want to get in to a discussion of comparitive ethics, it is a whole another topic. I already explained as clearly as I could my reasoning, and that is enough.

If you want to know what is the proper target of your compassion, think about the people of Florida. They just got blasted out of the blue through no fault of their own.

macsrus
Aug 15, 2004, 07:43 AM
Will she go to furniture heaven or human heaven?

Nice

macsrus
Aug 15, 2004, 08:00 AM
You know NOTHING about this persons medical history. You don't know what put her in that situation, and as much as close minded, ignorant people would like to say "she ate herself to death" you have no idea what the underlying etiology may have been.


Yes we do know what put her in that situation.....
Her eating habits DID...

I get so sick of Liberal whiners always pushing blame on a persons surroundings and on someone else...
People need to take responsibility for their own actions....
If you habitually overeat then you will wind up a fat ass....
And anyone who reaches these weights does so by gluttony...

And for all you liberal whiners who start talking about a medical condition...
Get a life... because overeating causes the medical conditions these people have...
My whole family ... 5 of them... are all lard asses.... Im the only skinny one...
And why am i skinny ? because I excercise... I also dont have the hand to mouth diesease....

emw
Aug 15, 2004, 08:13 AM
The good is that which helps you live and the evil is that which disregards it.

Yes, thankfully we have one less evil person in the world:

http://www.sptimes.com/2004/07/22/Tampabay/Lutz_man_dies_saving_.shtml

jsw
Aug 15, 2004, 08:19 AM
Yes, thankfully we have one less evil person in the world:

http://www.sptimes.com/2004/07/22/Tampabay/Lutz_man_dies_saving_.shtml
Your sarcasm is lost on people like broken_keyboard and macsrus who define a person's value by their appearance, who consider obesity to be the greatest of evils, and who consider mental illness to be non-existent.

They would agree the man mentioned in your link is a hero - unless, of course, he was fat, or ugly, or handicapped in any physical or mental way.

But that's a tragic story - and the guy really was a hero.

macsrus
Aug 15, 2004, 08:47 AM
Your sarcasm is lost on people like broken_keyboard and macsrus who define a person's value by their appearance, who consider obesity to be the greatest of evils, and who consider mental illness to be non-existent.

They would agree the man mentioned in your link is a hero - unless, of course, he was fat, or ugly, or handicapped in any physical or mental way.

But that's a tragic story - and the guy really was a hero.

First of all.....

I never said I was glad the woman died.... So dont lump me in with Broken

Second I never defined a persons value by their appearance.....

And as to your comment about me considering obesity as the greatest evil...

Actually when one considers all of the people who go hungry....
One could easily consider obesity/gluttony as a sin...
And as I actually did say... Obesitys root cause is gluttony i.e. habitually overeating...

It is a fact that you cannot change...
If you eat more calories than you burn off you will become obese... end of story.

Now do I think it is tragic that some people are gluttons... Yes I do.
But It is/was a choice they made...

Do I think mental illness exist... of couse I do...
But minor mental illnesses, like im depressed so I think ill eat a gallon of ice cream.... are a crock

Lastly dont make the assumtion that the person has a real mental illness...
I know you will find it hard to not resist assuming that they do because
Its your liberal whiner noone is responsible for their own actions so society and mental illness must be the cause philosophy...
Personally I think all you liberal whiners are the ones with mental illnesses.

jsw
Aug 15, 2004, 09:22 AM
First of all.....

I never said I was glad the woman died.... So dont lump me in with Broken
Point taken. Sorry.Do I think mental illness exist... of couse I do...
But minor mental illnesses, like im depressed so I think ill eat a gallon of ice cream.... are a crock
So you think that a mentally stable person would eat to the point she was immobilized on a couch since, possibly, 1999 or 2000?
Personally I think all you liberal whiners are the ones with mental illnesses.
I'm not sure why the fact that I disagree with you makes me a liberal whiner. I'm not either one of those things.

James L
Aug 15, 2004, 11:55 AM
Yes we do know what put her in that situation.....
Her eating habits DID...

I get so sick of Liberal whiners always pushing blame on a persons surroundings and on someone else...
People need to take responsibility for their own actions....
If you habitually overeat then you will wind up a fat ass....
And anyone who reaches these weights does so by gluttony...

And for all you liberal whiners who start talking about a medical condition...
Get a life... because overeating causes the medical conditions these people have...
My whole family ... 5 of them... are all lard asses.... Im the only skinny one...
And why am i skinny ? because I excercise... I also dont have the hand to mouth diesease....

There is just too much ignorance in your post to even begin to comment on it. I must say, however, that your viewpoint is highly myopic. There are 6 billion people in this world, and it would appear that your viewpoint is that because YOU can keep your weight off by exercising that that will work for everyone, with complete disregard for the medical history. It is an argument much akin to the smokers saying "well, my aunt Judy smoked a pack a day for 70 years and she didn't get cancer".

I will simply say that, when you have your heart attack, have a depressive bout, have your stroke, get diabetes, etc (as all this happens to skinny people too), I hope that the people around you (the "bleeding heart liberals" I think you called them) show you the same cold, callous feelings you have expressed here.

rainman::|:|
Aug 15, 2004, 12:11 PM
Look, arguing with these two is pointless, they have a two step logic process:

1. They may state, as fact, that this woman was self-hating and, basically, found a very nasty way to commit suicide;

2. We may NOT state, even as theory, that she was badly mentally ill.

It's like arguing with someone who thinks the sky is red. You can prove your case all you want, but their head is too far up their own ass to simply look up :rolleyes:

paul

macsrus
Aug 15, 2004, 12:35 PM
Point taken. Sorry.
So you think that a mentally stable person would eat to the point she was immobilized on a couch since, possibly, 1999 or 2000?

I'm not sure why the fact that I disagree with you makes me a liberal whiner. I'm not either one of those things.

As I stated in an earlier post... I have 5 family members in almost the exact same situation as this woman...
The lightest of the bunch is 365 lbs.... and she is only 5'1" tall...
The heaviest is 550 lbs...

And to the question of mental illness... If being a glutton is mental illness then they have it....
Because all they ever do is eat... and sit around thinking about when their next meal is.... If you ever saw my family eat... then you would understand my point of view....

Also the whole bunch of them are sorry lazy asses... who dont work and have got themselves on disability due to them being too fat too work.
Needless to say they are a bunch of sorry liberal bleeding hearts also... and they feel the government owes them their living.... and that it isnt their fault they r fat....
I say of course not..... jeeze give me a break

So I have some life experience with people of this ilk...
Im not saying that some people who are obese dont have a mental illness....
But you cant say that this woman or my family did/do have it.

Mord
Aug 15, 2004, 12:38 PM
all this makes me glad i live in the uk and am the shape i am, the fattest person in my school weighs 220lb :eek: but he is looseing weight and go's to the gym.

macsrus
Aug 15, 2004, 12:44 PM
Look, arguing with these two is pointless, they have a two step logic process:

1. They may state, as fact, that this woman was self-hating and, basically, found a very nasty way to commit suicide;

I never said this so get over it.
What I did say as FACT was obesity is your own fault...
Not someone elses or societies


2. We may NOT state, even as theory, that she was badly mentally ill.

It's like arguing with someone who thinks the sky is red. You can prove your case all you want, but their head is too far up their own ass to simply look up :rolleyes: paul

And since all you have done is make a conjecture that she was possibly mentally ill you....since you have no proof of it..... you havent and cant prove anything...

But as usual you resort to personally attacking someone with a different opinion than your own

But then again you ust be right... Because you said it...It must be gospel

macsrus
Aug 15, 2004, 12:55 PM
It is an argument much akin to the smokers saying "well, my aunt Judy smoked a pack a day for 70 years and she didn't get cancer".

The comparison between smoking and obesity should be this....

It is akin to a smoker who gets lung cancer and dies... And then people blame the tobacco company.... When the real fault was with the stupid idiot for smoking in the first place....


I will simply say that, when you have your heart attack, have a depressive bout, have your stroke, get diabetes, etc (as all this happens to skinny people too), I hope that the people around you (the "bleeding heart liberals" I think you called them) show you the same cold, callous feelings you have expressed here.

But again your argument is flawed.... Diabetes, a stroke, and a heart attack are not neccessarily illnesses that I may have caused to myself...
Although all of the above could be caused by a persons behavior... It isnt always so...

Obesity is different... It is always caused by a persons behavior...(some people can have genetic disposition to it) but the root cause is still overeating...No getting around it.

yellow
Aug 15, 2004, 01:13 PM
Obesity is different... It is always caused by a persons behavior...(some people can have genetic disposition to it) but the root cause is still overeating...No getting around it.

Holy smokes. I'm trying to look the other direction, but this is just too ignorant. Captain, do you know what iodized salt is? Do you know WHY it has iodine? Have you heard of hypothyroidism? Obesity is definitly not ALWAYS caused by a person's behavior. Sheesh. I'm outta here.

macsrus
Aug 15, 2004, 02:31 PM
Holy smokes. I'm trying to look the other direction, but this is just too ignorant. Captain, do you know what iodized salt is? Do you know WHY it has iodine? Have you heard of hypothyroidism? Obesity is definitly not ALWAYS caused by a person's behavior. Sheesh. I'm outta here.

As to the iodine.... the reason it is added to the salt is because hypothyroidism in children causes mental retardation and goiters...
In most cases where iodine deficientcy is the cause of hypothyroidism...
obesity is not usually a side effect

As an example both my grandmother and my great uncle had goiters....
They were from Great Lakes Illinois.. where it was common in their day...
Both were thin people....

Now days with the modern U.S diet and with the great overeating low exercise habits... hypothyroidism can be a contributing factor to obesity in people with the condition....
That said
Grossly obese people such as my family and more than likely the woman we are talking about... still have been grossly overeating for years...

And by the way.... I am a twin and my lard ass lazy brother weighs close to 500 lbs..... whereas I weigh in at a nice slim 172 ...

yellow
Aug 15, 2004, 02:59 PM
Actually, iodine in salt is for everyone, not just children.
Hypothyroidism is one of the many possible problems associated with a thyroid disorder. One of the side effects of hypothyroidism is REDUCED METABOLISM. Which means, that people gain weight, sometimes significantly, no matter how little they eat and exercise.