Nokia Increases Scope of Patent Complaints to Include 'Virtually All' Apple Products

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/12/29/nokia-increases-scope-of-patent-complaints-to-include-virtually-all-apple-products/)

The legal battle between Nokia and Apple has been ratcheted up another notch today with Nokia's announcement (http://www.nokia.com/press/press-releases/showpressrelease?newsid=1368607) that it has filed a complaint with the U.S. International Trade Commission (ITC) alleging infringement of Nokia-held patents by "virtually all" Apple products, including the iPhone, iPod, and Mac.The seven Nokia patents in this complaint relate to Nokia's pioneering innovations that are now being used by Apple to create key features in its products in the area of user interface, as well as camera, antenna and power management technologies. These patented technologies are important to Nokia's success as they allow better user experience, lower manufacturing costs, smaller size and longer battery life for Nokia products.Nokia filed suit (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/10/22/nokia-files-iphone-related-suit-against-apple-regarding-wireless-patents/) against Apple in late October over alleged infringement of Nokia's cellular and Wi-Fi patents by the iPhone. Apple responded (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/12/11/apple-files-countersuit-against-nokia/) earlier this month with a countersuit of its own for infringement of its own patents. In its court filing, Apple argued that it was not infringing on Nokia's patents, and even if it were determined by a court that it was infringing, Nokia had not offered fair licensing terms, demanding reciprocal access to iPhone-related patents not relevant to industry standards.

Article Link: Nokia Increases Scope of Patent Complaints to Include 'Virtually All' Apple Products (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/12/29/nokia-increases-scope-of-patent-complaints-to-include-virtually-all-apple-products/)

[0ld-knight]

apple's going to do the same on them, let's see who wins...
instead of that they could try to make some good phones as they used to do
Since i was a kid i've been having nokia handsets and they worked fine... as a phone! then iphone came out and changed what a good phone is.
The good thing is that if nokia or google or any other make better machines, apple will have to keep up!

waiting for jan26th... 8-D··

[MikeDTyke]

In a few weeks, Apple's countersuit will be extended to include every user interface Nokia has ever built.

Move along peeps, this is a cold war game of brinkmanship. With a bit of luck cooler heads at Nokia will intervene and they'll ask a reasonable price for the rights to the GSM patent stack.

[adamw]

Patents out of control (again). Go Apple. Nokia must be scared by the success of the iPhone.

[Sayer]

The issue isn't the patents, its that the iPhone is killing the Nokia business model and they can't counter it.

Patents aren't bad, they were recognized as important to entrepreneurs to benefit from their ideas at the founding of this country over 200 years ago.

Its part of due process to go to court over this stuff, even if its because one company is unable to compete in the open market, they have that right.

[jayducharme]

How do you spell "Nokia?" P S Y S T A R

[Goona]

The clowns in Finland or wherever the heck they are, are getting desperate. They want some of Apple's billions. Now they want some of what Apple is getting from the Mac and iPod. Greedy bastards.

[*LTD*]

My my, how times have changed in 2009.

The only thing that will stop Nokia's downward slide is innovation + rethinking what it means for users to interact with mobile devices + a great interface/OS + a robust app store + reducing some of that hardware fragmentation.

In short, Nokia has to start over. This isn't 7 years ago.

[arkmannj]

Maybe Apple should just wait for Nokia's stock price to fall some more, then buy a controlling share of the companies stock.

[stridemat]

Guess Nokia need some money or something.

[ChazUK]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (Linux; U; Android 1.6; en-us; Archos5 Build/Donut) AppleWebKit/528.5+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.1.2 Mobile Safari/525.20.1)

Wow. Where will all this end up?

I tink that one of the pioneers of modern telecommunication want what they deserve.

(Cue cries of "Nokia fanboy")

Without Nokia (and the others involved in the development of gsm technology), you wouldn't have an iPhone.

[aucl]

after years of products in the market, out of nowhere Nokia suddenly noticed these patent violations, … isn't there a deadline for making such claims?

can't wait that in round 3 Nokia will move to some eastern texas court.

IMO the lifetime of patents should be shortened massively, to give companies some motivation to move forward and keep innovating.

[Drag'nGT]

Nokia is hurting.

[Marx55]

Best answer to fools: never ever buy any product by Nokia. Ever.

[genericmacuser]

I use to work for Nokia back when they overtook Motorola to become the #1 mobile phone. Once that happened they went from being future focused to fashion focused. Worrying too much about making creative looking phones instead of functioning phones.

[Otaviano]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (Linux; U; Android 1.6; en-us; Archos5 Build/Donut) AppleWebKit/528.5+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.1.2 Mobile Safari/525.20.1)

Wow. Where will all this end up?

I tink that one of the pioneers of modern telecommunication want what they deserve.

Without Nokia (and the others involved in the development of gsm technology), you wouldn't have an iPhone.

I would agree if they had taken this stand from the very start. However it seems to me that this is a bit of a desperate move in response to their rapidly declining position.

They should concentrate on making a new series of phones that relaunch their brand and not this silly lawsuit. Either bring their OS up to speed or hop on the Android bandwagon, which in my opinion is the smarter option.

[stridemat]

I think this sums up what the legal battle is about:

[jo0]

after years of products in the market, out of nowhere Nokia suddenly noticed these patent violations, … isn't there a deadline for making such claims?

you would think so wouldn't you. it's like they let Apple embed the "patented work" into the product line to increase the spectrum of use. Bigger fuss = bigger money.

[RaZaK]

Just keep throwing crap against the wall to see if something sticks, Nokia. I'm sure that will help your business instead of using all that money spent on litigation to, you know, create better, more compelling products. :rolleyes:

:apple: FTW

[CQd44]

..really Nokia? You didn't think to do this before?

If this is an afterthought it sure is a late one.

Not really defending Apple or anything but Nokia took their sweet time.

[cmaier]

As a patent attorney, I think this will be entertaining.

[DipDog3]

If you can't beat them, SUE them!

I have lost all respect for Nokia. Instead of trying to make a better phone to compete with the iPhone, they are trying to kill innovation with lawsuits. Desperate companies always resort to lawsuits just before their end.

This is very bad for consumers.

[ChazUK]

I would agree if they had taken this stand from the very start. However it seems to me that this is a bit of a desperate move in response to their rapidly declining position.

They should concentrate on making a new series of phones that relaunch their brand and not this silly lawsuit. Either bring their OS up to speed or hop on the Android bandwagon, which in my opinion is the smarter option.

All this is is a reaction to the countersuit that Apple filed.

It will be interesting to see Apples response as there must be more stuff that Apple have that Nokia have infringed on as well as the things in the countersuit claim. (I'll support both sides in their defense as apple deserve to protect their technology as well)

[kdarling]

Heads up, fellows.

This is not just another countersuit. It's a complaint with the ITC.

The ITC can and does pretty much make up their own patent rulings.

Just a few years ago, Broadcom went to the ITC with its patents, and the ITC forbid imports to the USA of any Qualcomm based phones manufactured overseas.

That effectively meant that supplies of all CDMA phones would dry up quickly to nothing, rendering Verizon and Sprint helpless. Verizon had to negotiate their own hundreds of millions of dollars of royalty payments, just to free up their phone supply.

This is a very clever move. There is the potential of banning all Apple products manufactured overseas, from entering the USA.

[Tones2]

Patents out of control (again). Go Apple. Nokia must be scared by the success of the iPhone.

Apple is certainly guilty of these patent games as well. I always think that those who unjustly pursue to litigate weak "general" conceptual patent ideas deserve to have lawsuits against them for the same. The whole system needs to change, really, but until then, it's an eye for an eye.

Tony

[*LTD*]

Hey, if the best I could do against Apple's iPhone in over 2 years is the N97, I'd probably start suing as well. :D

[DipDog3]

I tink that one of the pioneers of modern telecommunication want what they deserve.

Without Nokia (and the others involved in the development of gsm technology), you wouldn't have an iPhone.

Nokia had most of the market share back in the day but they stopped innovating and were lively off their monopoly. Now instead of trying to get to the same level as Apple & Google, they are trying to bring Apple down to their level.

Apple owes them nothing.

[ChazUK]

Hey, if the best I could do against Apple's iPhone in over 2 years is the N97, I'd probably start suing as well. :D

Is that the N97 that uses the same GSM tech that the iPhone uses that isn't paid for?

Cool beans. :cool::apple:

[bunty]

I'm sick of all these stupid patent lawsuits. It just wastes time and company's money and makes the company suing look like a whiny little kid.

[garybUK]

Go Nokia :) I will always buy nokia as they are built in the EU and in these harsh times it's only right to support your own, plus when people have gotten bored of the iPhones that practically use all nokia's engineering in the infrastructure (see NokiaSiemens Networks) then the Nokias of the world (many many many times more than Apple can dream of) will be carrying on regardless.

[inkswamp]

If I'm not mistaken, Apple has a history of losing these kinds of battles. The first one that comes to mind is the Creative UI lawsuit but there have been others.

[iGod 2.0]

Okay, I could understand when the filed suit the first time, nothing that isn't typical for people suing Apple, but now Nokia is adding devices that don't even apply to them in the suit. What the hell does the Mac have to do with what your business entails which is making cellular devices?? And there is no way in the pit of hell they actually think that Mac OS was there previous idea. LMAO. I am actually interested to see this one go down. :D :apple:

[ChazUK]

Go Nokia :) I will always buy nokia as they are built in the EU ....

Not all Nokia handsets are made in Finland any more. I've seen countless threads on forums touting quality issues from non "Made in Finland" handsets.
http://darlamack.blogs.com/darlamack/2007/06/nokia_made_in_f.html

[thedbp]

Wow, Nokia must be scared ******** if they're pulling this.

The only thing you don't want to do, other than directly competing with a runaway hit Apple product, is to try and sue Apple.

I wonder if they have a silver platter that they'd like their asses handed to them on.

[*LTD*]

I wonder how much further Nokia will slide this quarter.

[aucl]

you would think so wouldn't you. it's like they let Apple embed the "patented work" into the product line to increase the spectrum of use. Bigger fuss = bigger money.
i'd say that with ignoring that for such a long time they practically implied their permission.

[Stephen123]

Nokia is refusing to license to Apple on the same terms they license to everyone else. Apple should have gone with Restraint of Trade.

Nokia going to the US ITC seems strange and desperate.

[Vmaatta]

Not to defend Nokia or anything but...

1) Nokia might actually have a case. They we're involved in the initial development of GSM and other technologies used so they certainly have the patents.
2) This thing certainly didn't start in the past few months. Quite a few geniuses saying this law suit is coming out of nowhere after 3 years. Discussions have been going on for years between Nokia and Apple as has been reported earlier by MacRumors and other places..
3) "How do you spell "Nokia?" P S Y S T A R" That comparison is just idiotic :eek:.
4) "The clowns in Finland or wherever the heck they are.." Yeah it's Finland, nice of you to find out some of the background info on Nokia :rolleyes:.
5) "Best answer to fools: never ever buy any product by Nokia. Ever." How about this one: Find out the facts, if not known yet, wait for the court ruling before making such proclamations. Think.
6) Apple has made the countersuit about some other patents. If there's any merit in that, the companies will likely make a deal.

I'm Finnish and also an iPhone owner.. not on either company's side on this one. Nokia certainly owns the patents but who knows if Nokia is asking unfair prices like Apple says or if Apple is simply trying to get a cheap ride.. or give Nokia a bad name which they are certainly doing. They certainly have the money to play like that.

Nokia needs to make better phones (especially the OS side). I'm certainly disappointed to see the #1 Finnish company producing such crappy products lately. But that doesn't mean Nokia would be wrong to pursue fair compensation for use of their patented technology.

[Compile 'em all]

*Brings popcorn*

[surferfromuk]

Anyone got any specifics about the functionality behind the patents that Nokia are claiming are in the Mac?

Given that in the counter-suit Apple pulled a 1991 patent on them to disallow pop up menu's, scrolling, on-screen buttons and the like this maybe just blind panic on Nokia's part, but it'd be real nice for someone who knows the Nokia patents to outline their allegations.

Unless Im mistaken I would think Apple and Microsoft are pretty solid on who owns an 'Operating system' functionality right?

Does this mean Nokia then go after Microsoft, Sony, Dell and everyone else cos I'm dam sure whatever it is they're alleging against Apple is clearly present in every and any Microsoft and it's hardware proxy manufacturers products as well?

If there is the tiniest chance of Apple losing big-time they may well just buy Nokia for cash. If Nokia lose then they really are out of hte mobile phone business forever ;)

[*LTD*]

This is a very clever move. There is the potential of banning all Apple products manufactured overseas, from entering the USA.

Which will happen on the 15th of Never.

[Rocketman]

Nokia - NOK Market cap 49.7B
P/E - 80! Ick.
Div yield: 4.24% (2.11B)
Price Growth: -17%

Apple - AAPL Market cap 188.5B
P/E - 33
Div yield: 0%
Price Growth: +144%

Leveraged buyout! I bet you could get 6% non-recourse 30 year funding right now for the $50B.

Then Apple would OWN any disputed patents as well as a cash flow to cover the finance cost.

The problem with the lawsuits in multiple jurisdictions is the possibility of MAD.

Rocketman

[Stridder44]

Oh Please, this is pathetic Nokia. Stop being a company that makes its' money off of lawsuits and instead focus on making a better product.

[zombitronic]

Yes, this seems futile, as "virtually all" software companies must infringe on these patents. It seems obviously political that Apple is being singled out as the one to be made an example of. I think they'll have a hard time proving to a reasonable justice system that Apple has infringed upon Nokia's proprietary patents in "virtually all of its mobile phones, portable music players, and computers," but don't forget, Nokia has a secret weapon lying at the bottom of a nearby Finnish lake: Mustakrakish (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMRzEw1ErT0).

[Digitalclips]

after years of products in the market, out of nowhere Nokia suddenly noticed these patent violations, … isn't there a deadline for making such claims?

can't wait that in round 3 Nokia will move to some eastern texas court.

IMO the lifetime of patents should be shortened massively, to give companies some motivation to move forward and keep innovating.

And you have to wonder why Nokia didn't use their own patented ideas, if they are so wonderful, to come out with any innovative products themselves!

[aucl]

Not to defend Nokia or anything but…
5) "Best answer to fools: never ever buy any product by Nokia. Ever." How about this one: Find out the facts, if not known yet, wait for the court ruling before making such proclamations. Think.


I would never ever say in advance that a court is ruling right or fair. guess only idealist can think so.

...Who knows, maybe a group of lawyers already making winter vacation in Finland just to prepare for everything

[JFreak]

This is a very clever move. There is the potential of banning all Apple products manufactured overseas, from entering the USA.

It would only mean that Apple would have to manufacture things in the States. I bet they're already making prototypes there, but produce most of the stuff where it is cheaper.

The rest of the world would however still have to settle for the China-manufactured gear :P

[xbjllb]

Hmmm... maybe it's time to leave the iCrap iToys behind and get back to the business of making REALLY cutting edge desktop computers with Blu-ray for starters.

But then, that would just be the logical long-range course of action.

Not the short-range quest for the next iCrap iGadget FAD.

:apple:

[DakotaGuy]

Well I guess everyone else will be getting in on the smartphone lawsuit bandwagon now. LOL

Check out this article. It's not just Nokia going after Apple. Palm is being sued over a third-party application processor (whatever that is) and RIM just announced a lawsuit against Motorola and Motorola is countersuing!:)

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/28/business/global/28nokia.html

[gwarth]

Maybe Apple should just wait for Nokia's stock price to fall some more, then buy a controlling share of the companies stock.

… and then shut 'em down.

[sjo]

Nokia had most of the market share back in the day but they stopped innovating and were lively off their monopoly. Now instead of trying to get to the same level as Apple & Google, they are trying to bring Apple down to their level.

Apple owes them nothing.

Nokia is still the largest mobile phone manufacturer by a huge margin. It's larger than the 2nd and 3rd together. It hasn't lost market share.

Apple needs to pay for the essential patents they're using in iphone. There're is just no way around it. It gets all the time more strange that they didn't pay up in the beginning.

To get some other facts straight, Nokia did approach Apple already in 2007 when first iphone was launched, offering them the same fair and non-discriminating terms everyone else in the industry uses.

[kdarling]

Okay, I could understand when the filed suit the first time, nothing that isn't typical for people suing Apple, but now Nokia is adding devices that don't even apply to them in the suit. What the hell does the Mac have to do with what your business entails which is making cellular devices??

As I pointed out above in post #24 (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=9013259&postcount=24), this is NOT an extension to the first suit.

It is a end run attempt, bypassing the courts and going to the ITC, who has the power to make binding decisions on its own. It can even ban imports of offending devices... and has done so in the past.

Apple has far more to lose with a USA import ban than Nokia would.

This is a very clever move. There is the potential of banning all Apple products manufactured overseas, from entering the USA.
Which will happen on the 15th of Never.

Everyone naively thought the same thing in 2007 when the ITC banned import of all CDMA handsets.

Neither the courts nor the president acted to dismiss the ban, either.

[topmounter]

Nokia are Losers and Losers use Nokia :p

[*LTD*]

This nails it:

"In contrast, Nokia made a different business decision and remained focused on traditional mobile wireless handsets with conventional user interfaces. As a result, Nokia has rapidly lost share in the market for high-end mobile phones. Nokia has admitted that as a result of the iPhone launch, 'the market changed suddenly and [Nokia was] not fast enough changing with it.' (citation)...In response, Nokia chose to copy the iPhone, especially its...patented design and user interface."

http://www.betanews.com/article/Apple-countersues-Nokia-says-N900-E71-S60-Carbide-C-violate-patents/1260559533

[JFreak]

Not all Nokia handsets are made in Finland any more.

Sadly, the top quality Made In Finland phones are a very small fraction. Nokia only produces prototypes and top of the line gear in Finland, because it is so much cheaper to have a factory anywhere else. You can't sell cheapo phones if cost of manufacturing one is high...

[MacBram]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (Linux; U; Android 1.6; en-us; Archos5 Build/Donut) AppleWebKit/528.5+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.1.2 Mobile Safari/525.20.1)

Wow. Where will all this end up?

I tink that one of the pioneers of modern telecommunication want what they deserve.

(Cue cries of "Nokia fanboy")

Without Nokia (and the others involved in the development of gsm technology), you wouldn't have an iPhone.

That's right -- that's why pioneers in a field like this pool their patents into international standards in order to help encourage interoperable technologies and products.

As a pioneer, Nokia pooled it's patents, making them open for fair, non-discriminatory licensing at the same fair, reasonable rates for everyone. This is standard practice.

However, Nokia suddenly decided that Apple isnot part of the "everyone" who may license the pooled standards patents at the same non-discriminatory rates as everyone else. Nokia wants to discriminate against Apple alone (because they are successful presumably) and charge them THREE TIMES the going rate.

Oh, it doesn't stop there: suddenly they demand that Apple allow free use of Apple's own patented technologies as well! What cheek! These are private Apple patents that NEVER were part of any pooled standards put into the pot for everyone to license. Apple has not opened them up to anyone -- so it is not discriminating against Nokia.

Nokia has been the aggressor -- suddenly changing terms that were already established (and changing them for Apple alone). Apple has responded by pointing out the private patents that Nokia has violated -- over which Apple had previously been silent.

Who is the bad guy here?

[heisetax]

Maybe Apple should just wait for Nokia's stock price to fall some more, then buy a controlling share of the companies stock.

But it would look bad to own a cell phone company but have a third party produce the iPhone because an Apple Nokia couldn't make that high of a tech item.

[.:R2theT]

Apple needs to pay for the essential patents they're using in iphone. There're is just no way around it. It gets all the time more strange that they didn't pay up in the beginning.

To get some other facts straight, Nokia did approach Apple already in 2007 when first iphone was launched, offering them the same fair and non-discriminating terms everyone else in the industry uses.

Apple is alleging that Nokia wants access to Apple's patents as well as the royalties. That doesn't exactly seem like "the same fair and non-discriminating terms that everyone else in the industry uses".

Nothing I have seen says that Apple has ever disputed what Nokia is due financially.

[jimmyjoemccrow]

The fanboy drivel runs thick and fast in this thread. No-one here seems to know the fine details of the case and yet all the negativity is attributed to Nokia. That is the very definition of blind faith there. Knee jerk reactions based on the notion that one involved party can do no wrong. It's lazy thinking, closed minded, and just downright ugly.

If you have nothing to add to the discussion than "Apple good, Nokia bad" then don't post at all. Read the thread, move on and then maybe we all might learn something instead of having to wade through pages and pages of **** to get to the real facts.

I could probably make this post in a huge number of threads here.

[rwintheiser]

Did I not just recently read that Nokia and Microsoft were doing business together? Apple just passed WinCE in Market Share, Microsoft is not mentioned in any of the lawsuits (for now), Balmer is sneaky... Just to add some fuel to the thread:)

[DakotaGuy]

Hmmm... maybe it's time to leave the iCrap iToys behind and get back to the business of making REALLY cutting edge desktop computers with Blu-ray for starters.

But then, that would just be the logical long-range course of action.

Not the short-range quest for the next iCrap iGadget FAD.

:apple:

Apple is in business for one reason and that is profit. There is more profit to be made with the iDevices then desktop computers. If Apple had never entered the iPod/iPhone market it would not the profit maker it is today.

You can see there is not much focus on the Mac Pro anymore. Other then the iMac, Apple doesn't really care much about the desktop market anymore.

[jimmyjoemccrow]

That's right -- that's why pioneers in a field like this pool their patents into international standards in order to help encourage interoperable technologies and products.

As a pioneer, Nokia pooled it's patents, making them open for fair, non-discriminatory licensing at the same fair, reasonable rates for everyone. This is standard practice.

However, Nokia suddenly decided that Apple isnot part of the "everyone" who may license the pooled standards patents at the same non-discriminatory rates as everyone else. Nokia wants to discriminate against Apple alone (because they are successful presumably) and charge them THREE TIMES the going rate.

Oh, it doesn't stop there: suddenly they demand that Apple allow free use of Apple's own patented technologies as well! What cheek! These are private Apple patents that NEVER were part of any pooled standards put into the pot for everyone to license. Apple has not opened them up to anyone -- so it is not discriminating against Nokia.

Nokia has been the aggressor -- suddenly changing terms that were already established (and changing them for Apple alone). Apple has responded by pointing out the private patents that Nokia has violated -- over which Apple had previously been silent.

Who is the bad guy here?

You don't know any of this. You don't know what rates Apple were paying, you don't know what the rates were that were considered Fair. Nokia has gone to the courts to let them decide.

[heisetax]

As I pointed out above in post #24 (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=9013259&postcount=24), this is NOT an extension to the first suit.

It is a end run attempt, bypassing the courts and going to the ITC, who has the power to make binding decisions on its own. It can even ban imports of offending devices... and has done so in the past.

Apple has far more to lose with a USA import ban than Nokia would.



Everyone naively thought the same thing in 2007 when the ITC banned import of all CDMA handsets.

Neither the courts nor the president acted to dismiss the ban, either.

Because Nokia is a small player in the US & Nokia's handsets are behind everyone else's handsets, it just shows that the US is ahead of the rest of the world in not having to suffer through Nokia's old tech/none tech hardware.

[sjo]

Apple is alleging that Nokia wants access to Apple's patents as well as the royalties. That doesn't exactly seem like "the same fair and non-discriminating terms that everyone else in the industry uses".

Nothing I have seen says that Apple has ever disputed what Nokia is due financially.


This is not true. Read the Apple counter suit. They clearly, although not in a straight forward way, state that Nokia offered them compensation deal based on monetary basis only. In fact Nokia offered such deal twice, in the beginning of the process in 2007 and before filing the suit earlier this year.

[aucl]

Nokia is still the largest mobile phone manufacturer by a huge margin. It's larger than the 2nd and 3rd together. It hasn't lost market share.

Apple needs to pay for the essential patents they're using in iphone. There're is just no way around it. It gets all the time more strange that they didn't pay up in the beginning.

To get some other facts straight, Nokia did approach Apple already in 2007 when first iphone was launched, offering them the same fair and non-discriminating terms everyone else in the industry uses.

so since you are so smart, explain why nokia now adds some more patents in a second step if it all was talked about for years already.

oh, and some % of the phone price might be fair when it is a phone, but when it gets a smartphone mobile computer, computer, that % should get lower, to stay absolutely about the same value.
Imagine car manufacturers would think it is a good thing to better integrate phones into their cars, for safety and comfort, and then they would still need to pay that same %, … do you still think that this is fair and non-discriminating terms???

[Rewes]

The only things that I dislike about Apple are the fanboys. How stupid and blind can you people really be?

[Rot'nApple]

Nokia, the NEW PSYSTAR! :(

How do we know Apple is using Nokia's patented ideas? I mean, Apple has a boatload of patents, why can't they say, "see in this patent is where we take this technology from" and not from anything Nokia came up with?!

Otherwise, how many patents has Nokia abused of Apple's technology?

Apple, Bring It! :apple:

If I had a Nokia product to trash, I'd do it! Now Nokia is on my no fly list! :D

[charlituna]

Patents aren't bad, they were recognized as important to entrepreneurs to benefit from their ideas at the founding of this country over 200 years ago.

if used correctly, no Patents, trademarks and copyright are not bad.

the trouble is abuse. allowing folks to file in areas where neither party is located, in order to pick a court that 99% of the time sides with the 'accusing' party. allowing patents on mere ideas. allowing law suits on patents never actually used for a product by the 'offended' party especially when the offense has been going on for 5-7 years already and no one said a word.

these are the things that muck up the system.

[elppa]

Why have NOKIA suddenly decided all these patents are so important now, two and a half years after the first iPhone was launched…?

It seems obvious to me why have left it so late to file against NOKIA. Because Apple was never interested in suing NOKIA in the first place. Apple are just using their patents to defend themselves.

In short Apple to me they seem far more concerned about competing in the marketplace than the courtroom. NOKIA, well their motives seem less clear cut.

No doubt this statement will be construed as being in someone controversial and worthy of debate. To be it's obvious to anyone with a fair mind.

[surferfromuk]

One of the items Apple is claiming patent infringement on;

Carbide C++ (because it's developed in an environment that enables the compiler to generate a GUI)

If Nokia could lose the ability to 'compile a GUI' then it could well explain this sudden attempted knock-out punch.

[schopenhauer]

This thread is full of moronistic fanboyism. Apple will pay in the end, you guys are just too stupid to realise what's going on.

What eloquence! Glad you joined the conversation.

As has been mentioned, what is most interesting is Nokia's timing. "...oh, by the way, Apple stole everything, not just something..." Yeah, very convincing, Nokia! Had that been the case, Nokia would have some really nice phones but instead their own product line is their own demise- in court and in competition.

I think I'm going to wait for an ice storm to hit Cupertino then slip and fall when walking by 1 Infinity Loop. :confused:
I got nothing better to do and nothing better to offer so that, my friend, is my best bet to get a piece of the Apple. Nokia is just betting the same way. Fortunately for them- they don't have to wait for an ice storm in sunny California!

[runeasgar]

Hmmm... maybe it's time to leave the iCrap iToys behind and get back to the business of making REALLY cutting edge desktop computers with Blu-ray for starters.

But then, that would just be the logical long-range course of action.

Not the short-range quest for the next iCrap iGadget FAD.

:apple:

Because, clearly, Apple hasn't made a fortune selling such gadgets.

It's a good thing you aren't in Apple's idea team -- chances are they would have tanked after you convinced them to not make the iPod.

[.:R2theT]

This is not true. Read the Apple counter suit. They clearly, although not in a straight forward way, state that Nokia offered them compensation deal based on monetary basis only. In fact Nokia offered such deal twice, in the beginning of the process in 2007 and before filing the suit earlier this year.

That is not how I read it. And that is clearly not what it is about now.

[Evil-Orange]

I've been following this for awhile (like many of you) and the latest claim by nokia seems a bit ridiculous - are the ITC going to rule against an American company in the home of capitalism?? And it seems like both parties are blowing smoke now.

But I do agree that apple should pay a fair amount if found they do infringe on the GSM technology patents, as from what I've read from previous posts/articles the rest of the mobile industry are paying nokia for use of thier GSM tech, why are apple so special in not paying?!

But what annoys me most is that Nokia think in reperation for any infringement on Apple's part they should have access to iPhone patents when at best they should recieve and fair compensation package i.e. a wedge of dollar.

[miketcool]

And you have to wonder why Nokia didn't use their own patented ideas, if they are so wonderful, to come out with any innovative products themselves!

They did. For years they have been using their patents on low power GSM integration in their handsets. Almost every company that makes a GSM phone uses the same technology. Just because this patent is older, doesn't make is any less valid. Other companies have been paying Nokia their fair share, why hasn't Apple?

Apple and a few other tech giants seem to think that they are untouchable in the legal system because of cash flow. That ongoing childish battle with Apple Corps. in which Apple Computer finally won and then became Apple Co. is a good example.

For years MS operated this way and they are living in the bed they made. The latest injunction over MS Word shows the futility. If Apple wants to smear Nokia as these private legal battles become public, that is their prerogative.

I doubt very much that Nokia is doing this to make a profit. If Nokia is doing as poorly as everyone claims, and Apple is doing as well as everyone claims; it would seem like a futile uphill struggle to continue for the underdog.

If Apple wants to continue to ignore Patents that they are using and not paying for, I hope they get what is coming to them. Same goes for Nokia, SE, DELL, Palm, Moto and the rest.

The Finns gave us the first GSM phone call almost 20 years ago. You have a lot to thank them for. The very fact that Nokia still manufactures phones in Finnland, is AWESOME. I would die if I could buy a quality computer made in the USA still.

[charlituna]

Without Nokia (and the others involved in the development of gsm technology), you wouldn't have an iPhone.

you can't really make that statement. especially with the 'and the others' added.
anything that someone thinks up could be thought up by someone else. So we could still have all this tech without Nokia's involvement.

it's worth pointing out that Nokia was sued by Qualcomn (and lost) over royalties for several GSM related patents. So they aren't exactly all sweet and innocent themselves.

[chevyorange]

Not the short-range quest for the next iCrap iGadget FAD.

:apple:

I disagree that they are just “fads” but even if they are those fads make Apple (one of my favorite companies) a LOT of money.

There are companies I don’t like but I don’t hope for their demise.

[kdarling]

It would only mean that Apple would have to manufacture things in the States.

I don't think Apple can get Americans to work long days for $50-$100 a month, even with dormitory room and board.

Either their profit would have to drop drastically, or the prices go up.

Apple is alleging that Nokia wants access to Apple's patents as well as the royalties. That doesn't exactly seem like "the same fair and non-discriminating terms that everyone else in the industry uses".

Doesn't matter what Apple claims happened in the past, although I certainly agree that UI patents should not have to be part of any deals.

Nokia has asked for a Delaware jury to determine fair terms.

Nothing I have seen says that Apple has ever disputed what Nokia is due financially.

Sure they have. Moreover, in their countersuit Apple disputes many of Nokia's patent claims, and thus say they shouldn't have to pay royalties on them.

So they're not just balking at "fair terms", they're claiming they shouldn't have to pay at all for many items that others pay for.

[aucl]

The only things that I dislike about Apple are the fanboys. How stupid and blind can you people really be?

aren't there any "i hate fanboys" and "fanboys only" threads here? :D

[KnightWRX]

Nokia, the NEW PSYSTAR! :(

How do we know Apple is using Nokia's patented ideas? I mean, Apple has a boatload of patents, why can't they say, "see in this patent is where we take this technology from" and not from anything Nokia came up with?!

Otherwise, how many patents has Nokia abused of Apple's technology?

Apple, Bring It! :apple:

If I had a Nokia product to trash, I'd do it! Now Nokia is on my no fly list! :D

Except for the fact that Apple says in its filings in the court case that they have been in negotiations with Nokia for over 2 years now to license these patents.

Nokia is not a new Psystar, if anything, it's Apple that is improperly using someone else's intellectual property here.

This isn't black and white. Nokia is ahead of Apple by about 3 orders of magnitude in the cellphone market. They are ahead in the technology game with the N900 (vs the 3GS) and Maemo tablets (vs the rumored Apple products).

Nokia isn't a bad guy, Apple isn't a good guy and reverses aren't true either. This is just 2 corporations that didn't see eye to eye on licensing issues and couldn't find common grounds in 2 years of negotiations. Now they're going to have the courts decide. This is precisely why there are courts and a justice system.

[fat phil]

Why have NOKIA suddenly decided all these patents are so important now, two and a half years after the first iPhone was launched…?

It seems obvious to me why have left it so late to file against NOKIA. Because Apple was never interested in suing NOKIA in the first place. Apple are just using their patents to defend themselves.

In short Apple to me they seem far more concerned about competing in the marketplace than the courtroom. NOKIA, well their motives seem less clear cut.

No doubt this statement will be construed as being in someone controversial and worthy of debate. To be it's obvious to anyone with a fair mind.

Wrong, wrong and wrong.

1. Nokia and Apple have had dialogue over this for some time, the filings follow the failure to come to an agreement. Nothing new to see here - industrial fencing over technology. You show me yours and I'll show me mine otherwise I'll take you to court and get yours the hard way or at least some of it boo hoo.

2. All companies love throwing the patent stick, and all the big corps have patent targets each month - you can make a nice bundle in bonuses if you have a good imagination. Apple are no different to anyone else in this area.

3. Not really.

[charlituna]

If I'm not mistaken, Apple has a history of losing these kinds of battles. The first one that comes to mind is the Creative UI lawsuit but there have been others.

Apple didn't lose. they settled out of court because they weren't getting anywhere and neither was Creative. it was all he said/she said and in the end it was easier to just toss some money at Creative to shut them up and get back to work. and Creative was happy with that.

similar things have happened with other cases as well, Apple hasn't actually 'lost' as many cases as it might seem.

[.:R2theT]

Sure they have. Moreover, in their countersuit Apple disputes many of Nokia's patent claims, and thus say they shouldn't have to pay royalties on them.

(Did you read these lawsuits before posting?)

Well you are correct that I didn't read every single word(big swaths for sure). But would you agree that at the point where you are going to court to contest some aspect of patent negotiations, as a lawyer, you would try to contest even the viability of those patents? That has been my limited experience with any type of countersuit, whether or not it is in regard to patent law.

[wronski]

Hmmm... maybe it's time to leave the iCrap iToys behind and get back to the business of making REALLY cutting edge desktop computers with Blu-ray for starters.

But then, that would just be the logical long-range course of action.

Not the short-range quest for the next iCrap iGadget FAD.

:apple:

Ever think the real fads are things like, hmm, I don't know, Blu-ray?

[*LTD*]

Hmmm... maybe it's time to leave the iCrap iToys behind and get back to the business of making REALLY cutting edge desktop computers with Blu-ray for starters.

But then, that would just be the logical long-range course of action.

Not the short-range quest for the next iCrap iGadget FAD.

:apple:

Apple's fads have this weird way of becoming permanent, standard-setting products. Like Macs. Like OS X. Like iPods.

Apple's about to set new sales records this quarter with their iPhone "fad", the "fad" that the also-rans are trying to copy furiously.

[sjo]

so since you are so smart, explain why nokia now adds some more patents in a second step if it all was talked about for years already.


Because that is the patent policy of Nokia. They don't build patent portfolios in order to prevent other companies from doing business. The cellular telephony standards work in such a way that companies in the business come together, contribute their research in to the standard and for their contribution, they get cross licensing deals and can use the technology for free.

If someone from outside the industry comes in, hasn't contributed anything in the standardization process, but those players are still allowed to use the technology, but they need to pay for the contributions other companies have made. Apple chose not to.

Simple as that.

The other possibility would be that such deals would not be offered to companies outside the standardization effort. In that case Apple wouldn't even make a mobile phone. Ever.

Note that Apple chose to suit Nokia for patents that have nothing to do with the cellular standards. For those kind of suits Nokia answers in a way their patent portfolio allows: self-defence.

If you actually cared to look how Nokia functions, this would be very clear to you.

[charlituna]

Nokia certainly owns the patents but who knows if Nokia is asking unfair prices like Apple says or if Apple is simply trying to get a cheap ride.

I"m sure you are well aware that Nokia doesn't own ALL the patents and has been sued themselves over royalties and such and actually gave up ownership of some applicable patents to Qualcomm. And part of that collection of lawsuits was unreasonable price hikes by Nokia for key patents for GSM.

[aucl]

you can't really make that statement. especially with the 'and the others' added.
anything that someone thinks up could be thought up by someone else. So we could still have all this tech without Nokia's involvement.

it's worth pointing out that Nokia was sued by Qualcomn (and lost) over royalties for several GSM related patents. So they aren't exactly all sweet and innocent themselves.

maybe we would have something faster, that needs less power, if someone else would have had one more time for research. :rolleyes:
maybe mobile phones would work as data networks from the beginning, sip/VoIP like, ...

[MacBram]

I've been following this for awhile (like many of you) and the latest claim by nokia seems a bit ridiculous - are the ITC going to rule against an American company in the home of capitalism?? And it seems like both parties are blowing smoke now.

But I do agree that apple should pay a fair amount if found they do infringe on the GSM technology patents, as from what I've read from previous posts/articles the rest of the mobile industry are paying nokia for use of thier GSM tech, why are apple so special in not paying?!

But what annoys me most is that Nokia think in reperation for any infringement on Apple's part they should have access to iPhone patents when at best they should recieve and fair compensation package i.e. a wedge of dollar.

No, this is not the way I read it at all. I read that Apple HAS been paying the licensing for all the patents that are part of the open pooled standards and has been paying the same rate as everyone else; whether this is through the component parts that Apple is sourcing, or it is through separate licensing payments directly to the standards bodies that manage the patents for the individual companies holding the patents, I don't know. Apple would be foolish not to, this is good business practice and Apple do not think they are special.

What seems to be happening is that Nokia decides that Apple is special and demands Apple to pay three times the rate of everyone else. Thus a patent license that is expressly termed "non-discriminatory" suddenly becomes discriminatory against Apple alone. Because Apple is successful and is eating Nokia's lunch, I presume.

Nokia seem to be asking Apple to fork over the difference between the normal rate for the licensing and what they demand that Apple pay over and above everyone else -- and that they are applying this extra retroactively back onto all previous iPhone sales!

Apple fully expects to continue normal licensing the same as everyone else and rightly protests the singling out and discrimination. Nokia blusters and says, well, there are other patents you have violated. Apple disagrees, and says, "prove it."

Apple points out that there are in fact private Apple patents that Nokia are violating; Apple has thus far kept quiet about this, but is forced to bring this up in its own defense. Apple is not discriminating against Nokia by mentioning these patents, because Apple never pooled them into a standard and does not allow anyone to license them.

Nokia know it is in violation of private Apple patents; that is why it has the audacity to demand that Apple hand over its private patents for Nokia to freely use. What cheek!

[ChazUK]

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Without Nokia (and the others involved in the development of gsm technology), you wouldn't have an iPhone.

you can't really make that statement. especially with the 'and the others' added.
anything that someone thinks up could be thought up by someone else. So we could still have all this tech without Nokia's involvement.

it's worth pointing out that Nokia was sued by Qualcomn (and lost) over royalties for several GSM related patents. So they aren't exactly all sweet and innocent themselves.

Why can't I make that statement? This isn't some hypothetical issue. The companies behind GSM have invested time and money into the tech and deserve some kind of reward if someone else wants to use it.

Also, please don't think I feel that Nokia are completely innocent. The Quallcomm suit was lost by Nokia but that has no bearing on the current suit between Nokia and Apple and doesn't make what Apple have done any more right.

[aucl]

The Finns gave us the first GSM phone call almost 20 years ago. You have a lot to thank them for. The very fact that Nokia still manufactures phones in Finnland, is AWESOME. I would die if I could buy a quality computer made in the USA still.

20 years?! time that gets royalty free!

[aegisdesign]

Did I not just recently read that Nokia and Microsoft were doing business together? Apple just passed WinCE in Market Share, Microsoft is not mentioned in any of the lawsuits (for now), Balmer is sneaky... Just to add some fuel to the thread:)

Microsoft is producing a version of Office for Symbian OS Phones. Nothing to do with the OS at all. Obviously MS realise there's money to be made in selling Office on the worlds largest smartphone platform though they've only really come round to the idea now that WinMo is haemorrhaging market share. Symbian has had QuickOffice for years already and it's free on most Nokia E Series business phones.

[Zoulou]

then it is time to die.
I have been the biggest Nokia fan, purchasing all the most performing Nokia up to the last comunicator then the Iphone arrived and I have been waiting for Nokia to perform again but it seems that the only reaction will come from the lawyers from Nokia
Too bad, no one from my company will ever buy a Nokia worldwide, they do not deserve it any more.

[aucl]

Because that is the patent policy of Nokia. They don't build patent portfolios in order to prevent other companies from doing business. The cellular telephony standards work in such a way that companies in the business come together, contribute their research in to the standard and for their contribution, they get cross licensing deals and can use the technology for free.

If someone from outside the industry comes in, hasn't contributed anything in the standardization process, but those players are still allowed to use the technology, but they need to pay for the contributions other companies have made. Apple chose not to.

Simple as that.

The other possibility would be that such deals would not be offered to companies outside the standardization effort. In that case Apple wouldn't even make a mobile phone. Ever.

Note that Apple chose to suit Nokia for patents that have nothing to do with the cellular standards. For those kind of suits Nokia answers in a way their patent portfolio allows: self-defence.

If you actually cared to look how Nokia functions, this would be very clear to you.
very nice written, but it was not the answer to my question.
if it was all in negotiation for some time, why didn't they mention all the affected patents from the beginning when filing a suit.

[cumanzor]

then it is time to die.
I have been the biggest Nokia fan, purchasing all the most performing Nokia up to the last comunicator then the Iphone arrived and I have been waiting for Nokia to perform again but it seems that the only reaction will come from the lawyers from Nokia
Too bad, no one from my company will ever buy a Nokia worldwide, they do not deserve it any more.

Ummm. First of, all companies sue to protect themselves from abusive behavior from competitors, including Apple.

What you are probably are trying to say is that Nokia is dying.... but they aren't... not yet at least.

[*LTD*]

Nokia's premiere smartphones are nowhere on the level of the iPhone. Nokia has been doing sweet f all for years now, squeezing every last penny they could out of their derivative, aging lineup. Nokia, the most "experienced" company in telco, the "Father" of mobile comnmunications, can't even compete with Android.

Then we see this:

http://www.engadget.com/2009/12/03/nokia-slashing-smartphone-lineup-in-half-for-2010/

Nokia is bleeding, and it's only going to get worse. What's sad is that they've chosen to litigate their way out of this situation instead of innovate their way out of it. And their timing with all of this speaks volumes.

[MacBram]

The fanboy drivel runs thick and fast in this thread. No-one here seems to know the fine details of the case and yet all the negativity is attributed to Nokia. That is the very definition of blind faith there. Knee jerk reactions based on the notion that one involved party can do no wrong. It's lazy thinking, closed minded, and just downright ugly.

If you have nothing to add to the discussion than "Apple good, Nokia bad" then don't post at all. Read the thread, move on and then maybe we all might learn something instead of having to wade through pages and pages of **** to get to the real facts.

I could probably make this post in a huge number of threads here.

What's lazy thinking is to take at face value any headline that states "so and so sues Apple over patent infringement, therefore they must have a case" .

What many are discussing (on an Apple site it must be said) is that there is likely more to it than meets the eye. Especially since Apple themselves are notoriously close-mouthed even when on the defensive. Apple "fanbois" get to defend the company that makes the products they love to use.

Bit of a challenge there: hardly close-minded; on the contrary, more of an opportunity for a bit of knight going out and defending his lady's honor sort of thing! Fanbois of other lesser companies, on the other hand, are a bit like flying monkeys who are sent out and told not to bother coming back unless they have someone's scalp! If you can't see that, you really are missing the whole meta narrative here. What can I say? Sigh.

Anyway, that there is some kind of backstory here in this patent battle is undeniable. Apple fanbois are trying to expose it, because their fair lady is too honorable to whine on her own behalf. Us fanbois get to exercise our minds and try to win over the very closed minds of those poor, enslaved minions of the darker sides who have Stockholm Syndrome and don't know it.

Now, no-one is saying "Nokia is bad", but let me tell you, their underwear aint white, and they aint no lady!

[inkswamp]

This seems to be the standard reaction of any "old" company when technology overtakes them. Remember back when the "old" media (newspapers, magazines, etc.) started suing new media sites for supposedly stealing their content by deep-linking and other such nonsense? We saw similar reactions from music and movie companies. That's where we are right now with cell phones. I wouldn't be surprised to see more long-standing phone manufacturers begin throwing lawsuits at newer competitors.

[aristotle]

That's right -- that's why pioneers in a field like this pool their patents into international standards in order to help encourage interoperable technologies and products.

As a pioneer, Nokia pooled it's patents, making them open for fair, non-discriminatory licensing at the same fair, reasonable rates for everyone. This is standard practice.

However, Nokia suddenly decided that Apple isnot part of the "everyone" who may license the pooled standards patents at the same non-discriminatory rates as everyone else. Nokia wants to discriminate against Apple alone (because they are successful presumably) and charge them THREE TIMES the going rate.

Oh, it doesn't stop there: suddenly they demand that Apple allow free use of Apple's own patented technologies as well! What cheek! These are private Apple patents that NEVER were part of any pooled standards put into the pot for everyone to license. Apple has not opened them up to anyone -- so it is not discriminating against Nokia.

Nokia has been the aggressor -- suddenly changing terms that were already established (and changing them for Apple alone). Apple has responded by pointing out the private patents that Nokia has violated -- over which Apple had previously been silent.

Who is the bad guy here?
Quoted for Truth. Nokia is trying to change licensing terms in order to export triple the amount of money as well as access to Apple's patents.

[sysiphus]

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Wow. Where will all this end up?

I tink that one of the pioneers of modern telecommunication want what they deserve.

(Cue cries of "Nokia fanboy")

Without Nokia (and the others involved in the development of gsm technology), you wouldn't have an iPhone.

I'm inclined to agree (full disclosure, I do prefer Nokia phones to the iPhone...I typically carry an E66 or an E90. But that's really for another thread)

[Stately]

As always, when someone does well everyone wants to overthrow and if they can't, they want to ride on the coattails of the successful. Food for thought Nokia, Google and Microsoft, Apple is the real deal because heart is behind it.

[sysiphus]

Quoted for Truth. Nokia is trying to change licensing terms in order to export triple the amount of money as well as access to Apple's patents.

No, not really. The companies who contributed R/D to the consortium that came up with the standards get better rates--Ericsson, for example, pays less, because they helped design/build the system. Apple came in wanting to get a piece of the pie, and Nokia is saying sure--but since they didn't contribute, they have to pay more.

[FakeWozniak]

Desperate times call for desperate measures.
IIRC, Apple and RIM have been taking market share from everyone else.

[*LTD*]

AApple is the real deal because heart is behind it.


With THIS attitude toward tech . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOgOP_aqqtg

does it come as any surprise?

[ChazUK]

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Nokia's premiere smartphones are nowhere on the level of the iPhone. Nokia has been doing sweet f all for years now, squeezing every last penny they could out of their derivative, aging lineup. Nokia, the most "experienced" company in telco, the "Father" of mobile comnmunications, can't even compete with Android.

Then we see this:

http://www.engadget.com/2009/12/03/nokia-slashing-smartphone-lineup-in-half-for-2010/

Nokia is bleeding, and it's only going to get worse. What's sad is that they've chosen to litigate their way out of this situation instead of innovate their way out of it. And their timing with all of this speaks volumes.

What? I didn't see anyone crying for Apple to "innovate" their way out" of the recent charger design infringement.

I assume that anyone who infringes on Apple tech are thieves but anything that Apple infringes on is a-ok?

Why don't apple "innovate" themselves some of their own GSM tech?

[aegisdesign]

maybe we would have something faster, that needs less power, if someone else would have had one more time for research. :rolleyes:
maybe mobile phones would work as data networks from the beginning, sip/VoIP like, ...

Ooh, the irony being that all Nokia smartphones come with inbuilt SIP stacks already and have done for some years now...unlike Apple. It's not Nokia dragging their feet with implementing modern phone features.

[*LTD*]

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What? I didn't see anyone crying for Apple to "innovate" their way out" of the recent charger design infringement.

I assume that anyone who infringes on Apple tech are thieves but anything that Apple infringes on is a-ok?

Why don't apple "innovate" themselves some of their own GSM tech?

At face value, Apple is due special treatment for being Apple. The benefit of the doubt has to go somewhere, and it should rightfully go to Apple. Now, getting beyond all that, if they are infringing they're liable to make recompense. Unfortunately, Nokia's timing, their performance over the last two years, and their complete inability to compete, including their ludicrous claim of inlcuding "virtually all" Apple products, speaks volumes and makes Apple look like quite the injured party.

[scottness]

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Wow. Where will all this end up?

I tink that one of the pioneers of modern telecommunication want what they deserve.

(Cue cries of "Nokia fanboy")

Without Nokia (and the others involved in the development of gsm technology), you wouldn't have an iPhone.

if they deserved it, they would have better phones now.

[Kabeyun]

No, this is not the way I read it at all. I read that Apple HAS been paying the licensing for all the patents that are part of the open pooled standards and has been paying the same rate as everyone else; whether this is through the component parts that Apple is sourcing, or it is through separate licensing payments directly to the standards bodies that manage the patents for the individual companies holding the patents, I don't know. Apple would be foolish not to, this is good business practice and Apple do not think they are special.

What seems to be happening is that Nokia decides that Apple is special and demands Apple to pay three times the rate of everyone else. Thus a patent license that is expressly termed "non-discriminatory" suddenly becomes discriminatory against Apple alone. Because Apple is successful and is eating Nokia's lunch, I presume.

Nokia seem to be asking Apple to fork over the difference between the normal rate for the licensing and what they demand that Apple pay over and above everyone else -- and that they are applying this extra retroactively back onto all previous iPhone sales!

Apple fully expects to continue normal licensing the same as everyone else and rightly protests the singling out and discrimination. Nokia blusters and says, well, there are other patents you have violated. Apple disagrees, and says, "prove it."

Apple points out that there are in fact private Apple patents that Nokia are violating; Apple has thus far kept quiet about this, but is forced to bring this up in its own defense. Apple is not discriminating against Nokia by mentioning these patents, because Apple never pooled them into a standard and does not allow anyone to license them.

Nokia know it is in violation of private Apple patents; that is why it has the audacity to demand that Apple hand over its private patents for Nokia to freely use. What cheek!

+1

Play with a lion and it may tolerate it, but try to take away its meat and you can count on getting bitten.

[ChazUK]

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What? I didn't see anyone crying for Apple to "innovate" their way out" of the recent charger design infringement.

I assume that anyone who infringes on Apple tech are thieves but anything that Apple infringes on is a-ok?

Why don't apple "innovate" themselves some of their own GSM tech?

At face value, Apple is due special treatment for being Apple. The benefit of the doubt has to go somewhere, and it should rightfully go to Apple. Now, getting beyond all that, if they are infringing they're liable to make recompense. Unfortunately, Nokia's timing, their performance over the last two years, and their complete inability to compete, including their ludicrous claim of inlcuding "virtually all" Apple products, speaks volumes and makes Apple look like quite the injured party.

The same could apply to Apple when they countersued Nokia. Apple didn't have a problem with the patent infringement until Nokia couldn't reach a deal and went ahead with the original suit.

The tit for tat nature of all this doesn't invalidate any of the issues so far, nor does it mean either party should get off scott free.

I understand this is an Apple oriented forum, but some of the remarks in this thread are well off base.

[Rocketman]

On the patent prosecution and defense front, we have the issue of prior art which often kills even issued patents. As a tactic Apple is likely to go forward with as much as they can there right away to "narrow the issues for the court".

Most patents, no matter how innovative have no commercial value because integrating even a great idea into a product has so many hurtles to overcome, from testing to design, to capitalization, marketing, customer adoption, etc.

It is not until somebody actually gathers together hundreds of ideas and makes a product like an iPod or iPhone, is it even worth it to spend the funds to protect patents. Apple by being very successful is an "attractive target" for patent trolls, patent owners, and also sheisters, and wannabees.

As has been shown by the many patent trolls out there, it is often more profitable to close down productive product operations entirely and devote one's corporate life to intellectual property claims. The law favors it more than producing an actual product, so why not?

Nokia may not get entirely out of product production, but they are about to embark on a path of devoting considerable capital and corporate mind share to lawsuits. Apple tends to fight to the bitter end, even though they do not always win.

Rocketman

[ChazUK]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (Linux; U; Android 1.6; en-us; Archos5 Build/Donut) AppleWebKit/528.5+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.1.2 Mobile Safari/525.20.1)

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (Linux; U; Android 1.6; en-us; Archos5 Build/Donut) AppleWebKit/528.5+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.1.2 Mobile Safari/525.20.1)

Wow. Where will all this end up?

I tink that one of the pioneers of modern telecommunication want what they deserve.

(Cue cries of "Nokia fanboy")

Without Nokia (and the others involved in the development of gsm technology), you wouldn't have an iPhone.

if they deserved it, they would have better phones now.

This isn't about who has the "best" phone.

[scottness]

Desperate times call for desperate measures.
IIRC, Apple and RIM have been taking market share from everyone else.

I would say "earning", rather than "taking"... But that's just me.

[jettredmont]

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What? I didn't see anyone crying for Apple to "innovate" their way out" of the recent charger design infringement.

I assume that anyone who infringes on Apple tech are thieves but anything that Apple infringes on is a-ok?

Why don't apple "innovate" themselves some of their own GSM tech?

Apple's chargers are not an international standard, now, are they?

When you form an international standard, the landscape changes. In order to get all the cell phone carriers of the world to build infrastructure supporting your standard (GSM, say), you need to exhibit proof that this standard is free from restrictive licenses (meaning, licenses which are not available to competitors under fair and non-discriminatory [FAND] terms). That's the price of entry.

The same type of argument lies under the Microsoft anti-trust lawsuits: the rules change once you become too big to compete.

In general, Apple has stayed away from such situations, whether that be by choice or by circumstance, so there simply is no equivalent for Apple in recent memory. The closest would be the Firewire standard; if you can find anyone suing Apple specifically for jacking up the price of a Firewire license for specific companies or markets, you might have a case there.

[MikeDTyke]

To get some other facts straight, Nokia did approach Apple already in 2007 when first iphone was launched, offering them the same fair and non-discriminating terms everyone else in the industry uses.

Aapl says otherwise, post a link or like it never happened.

[BlizzardBomb]

Wow, think of all the starving children we could feed with the millions of dollars wasted on pointless lawsuits like this.

[scottness]

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This isn't about who has the "best" phone.

I'm not into entitlements based on things in the past.

[elppa]

Wrong, wrong and wrong.

1. Nokia and Apple have had dialogue over this for some time, the filings follow the failure to come to an agreement. Nothing new to see here - industrial fencing over technology. You show me yours and I'll show me mine otherwise I'll take you to court and get yours the hard way or at least some of it boo hoo.

2. All companies love throwing the patent stick, and all the big corps have patent targets each month - you can make a nice bundle in bonuses if you have a good imagination. Apple are no different to anyone else in this area.
Like I said, someone would take issue with it.

Nokia is ahead of Apple by about 3 orders of magnitude in the cellphone market. They are ahead in the technology game with the N900 (vs the 3GS) and Maemo tablets (vs the rumored Apple products).

I stopped reading here. What a stupid statement.

[MikeDTyke]

As I pointed out above in post #24 (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=9013259&postcount=24), this is NOT an extension to the first suit.

It is a end run attempt, bypassing the courts and going to the ITC, who has the power to make binding decisions on its own. It can even ban imports of offending devices... and has done so in the past.

Apple has far more to lose with a USA import ban than Nokia would.



Everyone naively thought the same thing in 2007 when the ITC banned import of all CDMA handsets.

Neither the courts nor the president acted to dismiss the ban, either.

ITC typically acts in the interest of American companies, where's Qualcomm based? The chance that the ITC will make any such ban on products of an American company that have been shipping for years. Zero to None.

[Zoulou]

Ummm. First of, all companies sue to protect themselves from abusive behavior from competitors, including Apple.

What you are probably are trying to say is that Nokia is dying.... but they aren't... not yet at least.

then we would remember the good times and not their 21st century agony.
I feel sad that after imposing the only logical and user friendly menu, having the most pleasant materials and the best keyboard lighting just to name a couple of examples, Nokia has not made any step forward.

Nokia has neglected to care about their brand image, closing plants, throwing thousand of employees on the street to produce cheaper further east and now this ridiculous lawsuit

Nokia, you lost it, admit it

[zacman]

What seems to be happening is that Nokia decides that Apple is special and demands Apple to pay three times the rate of everyone else.

Nope, Nokia has asked for exactly the same amount (5 percent of revenue), Apple doesn't even deny that. They are just saying that it is to much. Quite a tough argument as 30+ mobile companies agreed to pay the exactly same amount to Nokia before. Even those companies that sued Nokia because of their patents asked for that amount because it's been the standard FRAND amount in the mobile sector. Just Apple didn't want to pay.

So Apple said "Ok, we're not licencing your tech because it's too much for us, we're just stealing it! HAHA!"

[xbjllb]

Apple is in business for one reason and that is profit. There is more profit to be made with the iDevices then desktop computers. If Apple had never entered the iPod/iPhone market it would not the profit maker it is today.

Because, clearly, Apple hasn't made a fortune selling such gadgets.

It's a good thing you aren't in Apple's idea team -- chances are they would have tanked after you convinced them to not make the iPod.

We'll just have to see what the infringement of 10 patents does to that fortune. And how much is left after they payoff Nokia 5-10% of it.

By the time this is over, I have a feeling Apple will wish they'd never gotten away from computers and into iCrap.

And the fanbois will have moved on to the next greatest cheapest piece of crap from China. From someone other than Apple.

:apple:

[sysiphus]

We'll just have to see what the infringement of 10 patents does to that fortune. And how much is left after they payoff Nokia 50-80% of it.

By the time this is over, I have a feeling Apple will wish they'd never gotten away from computers and into iCrap.

And the fanbois will have moved on to the next greatest cheapest piece of crap from China. From someone other than Apple.

:apple:

If you want your tech toys not made in China, another good reason to buy Nokias--the high-end ones are made in Finland ;)

[zacman]

Nokia's premiere smartphones are nowhere on the level of the iPhone.

At least the N900 will run some iPhone apps very soon. I wonder why that hasn't been mentioned here or on Engadget as I see a huge flame war coming... Stay tuned :D

[MikeDTyke]

This isn't black and white. Nokia is ahead of Apple by about 3 orders of magnitude in the cellphone market. They are ahead in the technology game with the N900 (vs the 3GS) and Maemo tablets (vs the rumored Apple products).


Sorry, are you making a Canadian funny? I obviously don't get your sense of humour. :confused:

[pubwvj]

apple's going to do the same on them, let's see who wins...

The lawyers.

[dguisinger]

Nope, Nokia has asked for exactly the same amount (5 percent of revenue), Apple doesn't even deny that. They are just saying that it is to much. Quite a tough argument as 30+ mobile companies agreed to pay the exactly same amount to Nokia before. Even those companies that sued Nokia because of their patents asked for that amount because it's been the standard FRAND amount in the mobile sector. Just Apple didn't want to pay.

So Apple said "Ok, we're not licencing your tech because it's too much for us, we're just stealing it! HAHA!"

I call bullpucky on your nonsensical babble from your autonomous anti-fanboy.

as much as i can't stand staight up fanboy posts like comparing Nokia to PYSTAR or whatnot, you anti-apple trolls are just as annoying. learn to think for yourself

large companies don't usually steal from large companies purposefully, they have too much to lose. its easy when say MS steals from a small company, or Seagate stole from an MIT startup as was featured in the news today... because they don't have much ability to cause trouble, they'll be out of business by the time they ever recover damages.

This is clearly the case since Apple licenses all other patents for standards that are pooled in semiconductors that Nokia was refusing to offer them the same amount, as stated in the countersuit. You can't get around patent pools on a standard, you can't accidently stumble across patents if you implemented a standard - they are all clearly marked and identified in the documentation from the standards body. Apple knew full well 10 years ago what the patent fees under the FRAND licensing was supposed to be and I too would refuse to be extorted for greater revenue or cross licensing. FRAND does NOT require cross licensing which is what Nokia is demanding.

[KnightWRX]

I stopped reading here. What a stupid statement.

Stupid but true. Look at the specs on the N900. They beat the 3GS to a pulp. Look at the Maemo tablets, they have been shipping for quite some time ( ie, years).

Look at smartphone Market share. Nokia is 40% to Apple's 16%.

So it's only stupid if you're blinded by Apple love and can't see facts.

[pubwvj]

The issue isn't the patents, its that the iPhone is killing the Nokia business model and they can't counter it.

Patents aren't bad, they were recognized as important to entrepreneurs to benefit from their ideas at the founding of this country over 200 years ago.

Wrong. Patents, as they have evolved, are fundamentally wrong. The entire patent system has become a disaster. I speak as an inventor. I refuse to use the patent system. Ideas are a dime a dozen. What matters is to also carry it through implementation and getting it to customers. The patent system as it now exists needs to be doused with gasoline and burned. We need to go back to a much more basic system of protections that only last a few years as well as no patents on software or life. The first is covered by copyright. The second should get no exclusive.

Cheers

-Walter
Sugar Mountain Farm
in the mountains of Vermont
Save 30% off Pastured Pork with free processing: http://SugarMtnFarm.com/csa
Read about our on-farm butcher shop project: http://SugarMtnFarm.com/butchershop

[jettredmont]

Not to defend Nokia or anything but...

1) Nokia might actually have a case. They we're involved in the initial development of GSM and other technologies used so they certainly have the patents.


Note that this countersuit has nothing to do with GSM technologies. I'm just about 100% positive my MacBook doesn't use GSM. There's a possibility that one of Nokia's GSM patents indeed had a secondary use in non-GSM technology which the MacBook uses, but this would be a bit of a stretch (and would imply that far more than just Apple are infringing; Nokia in effect would be taking on the entire portable computing industry).


I'm Finnish and also an iPhone owner.. not on either company's side on this one. Nokia certainly owns the patents but who knows if Nokia is asking unfair prices like Apple says or if Apple is simply trying to get a cheap ride.. or give Nokia a bad name which they are certainly doing. They certainly have the money to play like that.

Nokia needs to make better phones (especially the OS side). I'm certainly disappointed to see the #1 Finnish company producing such crappy products lately. But that doesn't mean Nokia would be wrong to pursue fair compensation for use of their patented technology.

Other than "Nokia certainly owns the patents", I agree 100% here. And, of course, I'm talking only about the original GSM-related patent filings, not these other claims they dredged up in retaliation.

As far as Nokia owning patents: they do, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Apple's products infringe. There are a few possible ways Apple's iPhone could not need the particular patents that Nokia holds:

1. They are using the technology to which the patent generally applies in a manner not circumscribed by the patent. As an example (and this is without knowing the specifics of the dispute), if Nokia had a patent on voice transmission over a modem and circuitry and Apple is using direct data transmission over the circuitry (bypassing the modem), then perhaps that use is not covered by the patent even though the circuitry is 90% identical to a covered device.

2. The patents are invalid in the particular use Apple is employing, due to prior art. Patents are broad and multi-faceted things; a patent may be upheld in one particular claim while not being upheld in a second claim. It is entirely possible that Nokia's particular patents have been upheld in some claims, but not in all, and that Apple has evidence of prior art for those other claims.

If I had to put money on it (well, if I did, I'd read Apple's claims and decipher it from there), I'd guess that Apple's patent disputes (because they do claim that some of the patents are invalid and/or inapplicable to the iPhone) center around an overly-broad interpretation of the claimed invention. Why? Because that's what the majority of patent disputes on well-established patents come down to.

All that having been said, it's silly to sit here with the little crumbs of details we have and declare Nokia to be an evil company worthy of a boycott, or start burning Nokia phones in effigy (which Nokia probably wouldn't mind so much ... every replacement phone you buy lines their pockets), or whatever. Wait until it all plays out in the courts, until the facts are completely aired, then draw your own conclusions based on facts rather than reflexive fanboyism.

[aegisdesign]

At least the N900 will run some iPhone apps very soon. I wonder why that hasn't been mentioned here or on Engadget as I see a huge flame war coming... Stay tuned :D

It's not that much of a wonder really.

Exhibit A)

It's an Apple website with a forum full of fanboys

Exhibit B)

It's an American website. Any tech company outside the USA is obviously not worthy. Just look at the press Android gets even though Nokia still sells more phones in the USA than all the Android phones put together.

[aucl]

Ooh, the irony being that all Nokia smartphones come with inbuilt SIP stacks already and have done for some years now...unlike Apple. It's not Nokia dragging their feet with implementing modern phone features.



also i am a bit confused what takes Apple so long in the whole IM and telephony things, my guess is that iPhone does not have that kind of features cause of the history with ATT.
but i hope 4G and next ichat will bring that too…

in the beginning that might not have been the really necessary features to start adding, but now it would be time

[Andronicus]

The fanboy drivel runs thick and fast in this thread. No-one here seems to know the fine details of the case and yet all the negativity is attributed to Nokia. That is the very definition of blind faith there. Knee jerk reactions based on the notion that one involved party can do no wrong. It's lazy thinking, closed minded, and just downright ugly.

If you have nothing to add to the discussion than "Apple good, Nokia bad" then don't post at all. Read the thread, move on and then maybe we all might learn something instead of having to wade through pages and pages of **** to get to the real facts.

I could probably make this post in a huge number of threads here.

It's funny, because you don't point out any of the "fine details of the case" all you do is complain about the "fanboy drivel" :rolleyes: (the "drivel" actually adds more to this discussion and stays on topic more than you ranting and spouting jibberish). How about you take your own advice and if you don't have anything to add to the discussion then don't post at all. :D

Also, no reason to make this post in a "huge number of threads" we understand you are a very bitter person (or at least come off as one). ;)

oh btw, Apple good, Nokia bad :)

[cmaier]

Wrong. Patents, as they have evolved, are fundamentally wrong. The entire patent system has become a disaster. I speak as an inventor. I refuse to use the patent system. Ideas are a dime a dozen. What matters is to also carry it through implementation and getting it to customers. The patent system as it now exists needs to be doused with gasoline and burned. We need to go back to a much more basic system of protections that only last a few years as well as no patents on software or life. The first is covered by copyright. The second should get no exclusive.


That never existed.

[aucl]

Nope, Nokia has asked for exactly the same amount (5 percent of revenue), Apple doesn't even deny that. They are just saying that it is to much. Quite a tough argument as 30+ mobile companies agreed to pay the exactly same amount to Nokia before. Even those companies that sued Nokia because of their patents asked for that amount because it's been the standard FRAND amount in the mobile sector. Just Apple didn't want to pay.

So Apple said "Ok, we're not licencing your tech because it's too much for us, we're just stealing it! HAHA!"

it would be so funny if they disable GSM by default and then sell it as a firmware patch for like 1$, then Nokia can take their 5cents for that patents.
:D

ps: wasn't there something like that in the beginning with the MacBooks and Wireless N? ok probably something else, but would be a cool solution

[aucl]

If you want your tech toys not made in China, another good reason to buy Nokias--the high-end ones are made in Finland ;)

the 8600 8800 i had came from china, they might not be technical high end, but prestige phones.

i guess all that "high-end" phones mentioned here are the ones sold that limited that they can manufacture them in their lab still :D (for anyone who did not understood that: that last sentence was a joke)

[jettredmont]

Nokia is still the largest mobile phone manufacturer by a huge margin. It's larger than the 2nd and 3rd together. It hasn't lost market share.


Ah, but it's lost something far more important: mind share. People don't yearn after Nokia POC burners any more. They want iPhones, or as close a facsimile as their chosen provider can muster. Where mind share goes, market share will generally follow. Nokia can read the writing on the wall as well as anyone else.


Apple needs to pay for the essential patents they're using in iphone. There're is just no way around it. It gets all the time more strange that they didn't pay up in the beginning.

To get some other facts straight, Nokia did approach Apple already in 2007 when first iphone was launched, offering them the same fair and non-discriminating terms everyone else in the industry uses.

What happened, then, that caused Nokia to end up demanding not only more money from Apple than from other cell phone vendors, but also free and clear cross-licensing of iPhone patents?

Or, just perhaps, what Nokia is calling "fair and non-discriminatory" is not what Apple agrees to, which is why we need a third party (which IMHO shouldn't be the patent court system, but that's the venue Nokia chose) to arbitrate.

[cmaier]

it would be so funny if they disable GSM by default and then sell it as a firmware patch for like 1$, then Nokia can take their 5cents for that patents.
:D

ps: wasn't there something like that in the beginning with the MacBooks and Wireless N? ok probably something else, but would be a cool solution

That doesn't work. Reasonable patent royalties would be calculated based on the value the patent brings to the phone.

[MikeDTyke]

Stupid but true. Look at the specs on the N900. They beat the 3GS to a pulp. Look at the Maemo tablets, they have been shipping for quite some time ( ie, years).

Look at smartphone Market share. Nokia is 40% to Apple's 16%.

So it's only stupid if you're blinded by Apple love and can't see facts.

And you have to be really stupid to believe the crud your shovelling. The n900 has been available for about a whole week. At best they'll get 6 months lead time with a higher res display and camera. Thing is dozens of other phones have had higher res cameras and screens, they've not really turned out to be iPhone killers.

The most important thing about the iPhone is not a bullet point spec list, that's all the n900 has, and a second rate os to boot.

That goes double for the meamo tablets. They took a perfectly good linux and butchered i into a windows tablet edition b'stard offspring.

[MacBram]

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What? I didn't see anyone crying for Apple to "innovate" their way out" of the recent charger design infringement.

I assume that anyone who infringes on Apple tech are thieves but anything that Apple infringes on is a-ok?

Why don't apple "innovate" themselves some of their own GSM tech?

Apple has itself contributed to many open industry standards that are widely in use today. Things like Firewire, network printing protocols, etc. Another one that comes to mind is the H.264 codec for video; unless I am mistaken, Apple directly contributed to this. It is now part of the pool of patents managed by the MPEG group, as I understand it. This is an example of a technology that is governed by an open, non-discriminatory licensing arrangement, much like the GSM stuff Nokia has contributed to as a member of that group.

Why should people like Google have to develop and support and campaign for yet another good video codec that they would want others to get involved in and adopt. Why not use one that is already something of a widely used standard, or with the potential to be. So, Google would license this; in fact they have gone ahead and provided copies of their YouTube movies in this format in addition to Flash (a more proprietary "standard").

No-one is asking Google to innovate here. However, what if Apple suddenly decided to get all discriminatory on this upstart Google bunch, and all of a sudden demand that Google pay three times the going rate for MPEG4 H264 licensing? Like, "Google, dude, you've got like billions of movies out there, you must be like too successful; I think you ought to pay more than anyone else and we are going to count up like all the movies you have ever served, all over the world, ever; how do you like them apples now? You are toast, Google; all those billions you got in the bank from advertising all over them there patent-infringing movies, let's see you cough up. Yo, we own you!"

So, no, no-one is asking Google to innovate it's way out of this imagined predicament, because it is just not supposed to happen this way. You work on technology that you want to see widely adopted and put into standards, and you treat everyone reasonably and fairly and all the same in order to get them all to use your standard. That's the way the world turns. Except, now Nokia wants to discriminate against Apple because Nokia feels Apple is doing too well.

Now, the innovating part. The "innovate your way out" applies to PRIVATE proprietary patents. Technologies that SET YOU APART and DIFFERENTIATE you from your competition. Dude, how is Nokia setting itself apart from its competition? How is anyone, except for Apple? It's like everyone is copying Apple as fast as they can, hoping they don't get caught without a seat when the music stops! Apple hasn't really been calling out anyone over the violation of Apple patents (see what nice guys they are?). They didn't call out Palm.

But now Apple is on the defensive, and Nokia have the audacity to demand free use of private Apple patents -- BECAUSE Nokia know themselves to already be infringing upon those patents!

This has to do with GUI, user interaction, the software that predicts what selection you are trying to make, etc. Nothing to do with working with international open standards. You don't need this stuff to make a phone that works with all the carriers around the world. You DO need to license (fairly) the pooled standard GSM patents that allow you to make a phone that works for most people anywhere! Innovation doesn't apply when you are all trying to work to common standards, which one would think would be reasonably clear.

Nokia does not need the Apple patents to make a phone -- but they do need them to make one that people want!!! Sheesh.

[aucl]

Stupid but true. Look at the specs on the N900. They beat the 3GS to a pulp. Look at the Maemo tablets, they have been shipping for quite some time ( ie, years).

Look at smartphone Market share. Nokia is 40% to Apple's 16%.

So it's only stupid if you're blinded by Apple love and can't see facts.

but these numbers are cause of very outdated definitions of what really a smartphone is, … does it need a cam? support (java) apps? heck, IMHO there is more to that. and i don't think there are 40% Maemos out there.

[aucl]

Wrong. Patents, as they have evolved, are fundamentally wrong. The entire patent system has become a disaster. I speak as an inventor. I refuse to use the patent system. Ideas are a dime a dozen. What matters is to also carry it through implementation and getting it to customers. The patent system as it now exists needs to be doused with gasoline and burned. We need to go back to a much more basic system of protections that only last a few years as well as no patents on software or life. The first is covered by copyright. The second should get no exclusive.


+++ could not agree more +++

[GQB]

[SIZE=1]

Without Nokia (and the others involved in the development of gsm technology), you wouldn't have an iPhone.

Without Nokia, we wouldn't need one.

[surferfromuk]

Interesting - Nokia are going for damages resulting from what it perceives is lost market share. No wonder Apple are fighting it - this could result in massive open ended settlement.

From Nokia's filing ;


73. Even if Apple were to subsequently pay past due F/RAND royalites, it would still enjoy a market share it otherwise would not have but for the period of “free riding.” Nokia would likewise lose its portion of the market share for the period of the “free riding.” Due to the difficulty in predicting whether, if at all, such market share can be recovered, Nokia’s harm cannot be compensated by payment of past due F/RAND royalties alone.

[*LTD*]

Stupid but true. Look at the specs on the N900. They beat the 3GS to a pulp. Look at the Maemo tablets, they have been shipping for quite some time ( ie, years).

Look at smartphone Market share. Nokia is 40% to Apple's 16%.

So it's only stupid if you're blinded by Apple love and can't see facts.

N900 = no Apple gestalt.

Whoever can't get that magical combination of Hardware+OS+Apps right is not going to go very far, no matter the specs. Apple has it nailed, and it shows.

Maemo tablets?? Never heard of them. Once Apple releases theirs these Momo or Mumu things aren't really going to matter anyway.

Nokia marketshare represents years of entrenchment and years of selling the same old same old. And we're seeing the results of it in Nokia's current downward slide, including their latest ludicrous claim.

You and I agree on OS X and its licensing model, etc. But I think we're going to be at odds for a while when it comes to mobiles. ;)

[elppa]

Stupid but true. Look at the specs on the N900. They beat the 3GS to a pulp. Look at the Maemo tablets, they have been shipping for quite some time ( ie, years).

Look at smartphone Market share. Nokia is 40% to Apple's 16%.

So it's only stupid if you're blinded by Apple love and can't see facts.
If NOKIA's products were 3x better than Apple then NOKIA would be able to command to premium price for said products and their balance sheets wouldn't look like such a mess.

You're completely blind to Apple's value proposition.

No offence, but you must have a very simple, reductionist view of things if you can't see beyond bullet points and percentages.


Without Nokia (and the others involved in the development of gsm technology), you wouldn't have an iPhone.

Without Nokia, we wouldn't need one.

Good stuff. Laugh out loud funny. Best post I've seen on here in a while.
:D

Neatly highlights NOKIA's real problems as well.

[aucl]

That doesn't work. Reasonable patent royalties would be calculated based on the value the patent brings to the phone.

but then the whole N% rule is nuts anyway!

cause people like me have an iPhone and use it as WiFi tablet, iPod, gaming device, and to check mails when on the road, …
right, no calls etc. the only gsm use is for the mails and IM on the road, …
so i guess after all is settled i should get back most of that license fee from nokia, …

[gnasher729]

We'll just have to see what the infringement of 10 patents does to that fortune. And how much is left after they payoff Nokia 5-10% of it.

Well, Apple could just take 5 to 10 percent of its cash and slowly, slowly buy Nokia shares. At that point some people would start ******** themselves.

[Shin3r]

The fanboy drivel runs thick and fast in this thread. No-one here seems to know the fine details of the case and yet all the negativity is attributed to Nokia. That is the very definition of blind faith there. Knee jerk reactions based on the notion that one involved party can do no wrong. It's lazy thinking, closed minded, and just downright ugly.

If you have nothing to add to the discussion than "Apple good, Nokia bad" then don't post at all. Read the thread, move on and then maybe we all might learn something instead of having to wade through pages and pages of **** to get to the real facts.

I could probably make this post in a huge number of threads here.

Oh get off your high horse. Of course there's going to be fanboys in a large number of threads. It's called MacRumors, Which in fact makes your post trolling.

Yes, you are right, no one knows the "fine details" yet and I don't think anyone has claimed to have them. This is simply a place where we are making conjecture based on what we know and what has been released to us. Everyone does it, even you have, because it's human nature. According to what we have read, it appears Nokia is trying to take advantage of a situation by overcharging for it's licenses compared to everyone else, which is in fact illegal.

So please, stop being the pot calling the kettle black.

[GeekOFComedy]

So a long battery life is bad, what about other companies?

[skeep5]

Maybe Apple should just wait for Nokia's stock price to fall some more, then buy a controlling share of the companies stock.

HA HA +1!

[Plutonius]

The only things that I dislike about Apple are the fanboys. How stupid and blind can you people really be?

Troll alert....

[Shin3r]

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The same could apply to Apple when they countersued Nokia. Apple didn't have a problem with the patent infringement until Nokia couldn't reach a deal and went ahead with the original suit.

The tit for tat nature of all this doesn't invalidate any of the issues so far, nor does it mean either party should get off scott free.

I understand this is an Apple oriented forum, but some of the remarks in this thread are well off base.

I agree with you, but on both sides of the matter. But I'm not exactly ceratin what real point you are trying to make. After all, this is a "RUMORS" site. It could also be called "Gossip" if that helps you understand it any better. So you know how different the story and opinions change so very quickly. If you came here looking for a high degree of accuracy with "Just the facts Maam", you squarely don't know where you are.

[kiljoy616]

Everyone naively thought the same thing in 2007 when the ITC banned import of all CDMA handsets.

Neither the courts nor the president acted to dismiss the ban, either.[/QUOTE]

Totally different world we are in today, so lets keep reality in the here and now. :p

[kiljoy616]

Troll alert....

haha, big time Trolling, or is it just Nokia in the forum? :rolleyes:

[aegisdesign]

What happened, then, that caused Nokia to end up demanding not only more money from Apple than from other cell phone vendors, but also free and clear cross-licensing of iPhone patents?

We only have Apple's word that that's what Nokia demanded at this point whilst Nokia are saying they tried multiple attempts to come to agreement including cross-licencing. Seems to me that Nokia have attempted multiple avenues to come to an agreement but Apple just don't want to pay.

Or, just perhaps, what Nokia is calling "fair and non-discriminatory" is not what Apple agrees to, which is why we need a third party (which IMHO shouldn't be the patent court system, but that's the venue Nokia chose) to arbitrate.

If negotiations break down, where else is there but the court?

[surferfromuk]

From Apple’s counter-suit

36. Breaching F/RAND commitments, as Nokia has done here, undermines the pro-competitive safeguards put in place as SSOs. By seeking to capitalize on a patent’s actual or purported incorporation into a standard, the patentee violates the very commitment that led to the incorporation of that technology in the first place.

Nokia have been very dumb. The worst that can happen is Apple have to pay F/RAND rates for the technology (which they’ve either paid for through third-party licensees already) or have withheld thus far due to rate dispute.

Everything Apple has used is clearly part of the GSM standard created and implemented by the European telecommunications ministries on behalf of the European Commission and including Nokia technology at Nokia's urging.

Nokia on the other hand could find itself losing patent control if it’s been found to abuse it’s position and potentially much worse lose the right to various technologies patented by Apple.

Nokia could really end up regretting this - in a quite staggeringly big way.

[Shin3r]

Hi

[doctoree]

David vs Goliath.
Apple is one of the most powerful corporate entities in existence.

[cumanzor]

then we would remember the good times and not their 21st century agony.
I feel sad that after imposing the only logical and user friendly menu, having the most pleasant materials and the best keyboard lighting just to name a couple of examples, Nokia has not made any step forward.

Nokia has neglected to care about their brand image, closing plants, throwing thousand of employees on the street to produce cheaper further east and now this ridiculous lawsuit

Nokia, you lost it, admit it

I agree, Nokia haven't done anything innovating in the last few years, but why exactly do they need to disappear? Because they are poking Apple in the eye? I honestly have to ask why are people so stubborn into believing that Apple always does good. This lawsuit has nothing to do with the fact that Nokia is a dead end company, because they aren't.

Everyone in here, based on obvious cognitive biases, insist that Nokia is suing Apple because they are doing extremely well. Does anyone have any proof at all of this argument?

And no, I'm not asking for numbers, we already know them. I'm not asking for biased opinions either.

[WeegieMac]

If Nokia had all these patents in place, all of which they claim are what makes the iPhone the phone that it is, why didn't Nokia bring out their own "iPhone" long before Apple did?

Hmmm?

[elppa]

From Apple’s counter-suit

36. Breaching F/RAND commitments, as Nokia has done here, undermines the pro-competitive safeguards put in place as SSOs. By seeking to capitalize on a patent’s actual or purported incorporation into a standard, the patentee violates the very commitment that led to the incorporation of that technology in the first place.

Nokia have been very dumb. The worst that can happen is Apple have to pay F/RAND rates for the technology (which they’ve either paid for through third-party licensees already) or have withheld thus far due to rate dispute.

Everything Apple has used is clearly part of the GSM standard created and implemented by the European telecommunications ministries on behalf of the European Commission and including Nokia technology at Nokia's urging.

Nokia on the other hand could find itself losing patent control if it’s been found to abuse it’s position and potentially much worse lose the right to various technologies patented by Apple.

Nokia could really end up regretting this - in a quite staggeringly big way.

Very interesting — going by the slipshod way the rest the NOKIA corporation is run, I wouldn't be surprised if your on to something with your theory.

[archipellago]

the basis of the GSM suit is well founded and is 100% in Nokia's favour. Apple even come close to admitting it.

I just don't know why Apple won't pay the same dues as everyone else..?

the rest of it I don't really know.

[shoulin333]

Apple should just buy nokia and buy another iTrademark.

Maybe iNokia, it can be a pet rock game for the new iSlate.

[archipellago]

Very interesting — going by the slipshod way the rest the NOKIA corporation is run, I wouldn't be surprised if your on to something with your theory.

no, just like you, he's talking hogwash....

[MikeDTyke]

David vs Goliath.
Apple is one of the most powerful corporate entities in existence.

Nokia is no David, but you have a point, it's ridiculous to think about taking on APPLE with a patent fight, unless you are a patent troll and aren't actually manufacturing anything. :D

[MikeDTyke]

the basis of the GSM suit is well founded and is 100% in Nokia's favour. Apple even come close to admitting it.

I just don't know why Apple won't pay the same dues as everyone else..?

the rest of it I don't really know.

You really don't know much at all. Apple would pay the dues. The complaint is that Nokia wants more than the same dues.

[archipellago]

If Nokia had all these patents in place, all of which they claim are what makes the iPhone the phone that it is, why didn't Nokia bring out their own "iPhone" long before Apple did?

Hmmm?

because they didn't believe that anyone would want anything other than a 'really good' phone as their no. 1 priority.

for all its' good points, it isn't a good phone in the traditional sense of the word.

[tdstom]

"73. Even if Apple were to subsequently pay past due F/RAND royalites, it would still enjoy a market share it otherwise would not have but for the period of “free riding.” Nokia would likewise lose its portion of the market share for the period of the “free riding.” Due to the difficulty in predicting whether, if at all, such market share can be recovered, Nokia’s harm cannot be compensated by payment of past due F/RAND royalties alone."


So if Apple had been paying the royalites from the beginning, thier market share would be different now?

HOW SO?

[archipellago]

You really don't know much at all. Apple would pay the dues. The complaint is that Nokia wants more than the same dues.

do your research and then come back.

Nokia wants the same percentage from Apple as it has requested (and received) form every other mobile maker who weren't part of the original GSM co-alition.

change the location in your profile, you are giving the rest of us a bad name..;)

[Mattie Num Nums]

Of course all the fanboys missing a key statement here

Apple pretty much said so what if we are infringing Nokia didn't offer us a fee we felt was fair, so we infringed on it anyways.

[surferfromuk]

Very interesting — going by the slipshod way the rest the NOKIA corporation is run, I wouldn't be surprised if your on to something with your theory.

It gets better. Apple outlines the nature of Nokia's potentially illegal strong-arm tactics. ( Apple specifically claims Nokia to be unlawful in article 84)

From Apple's counter-claim;

Article 81. In Particular, in or about the spring of 2008, Nokia demanded that, as part of it’s compensation for licensing Nokia’s portfolio of purported essential patents, Apple must grant Nokia a license to a particular number of Apple non-standards-essential patents...Apple immediately rejected the proposal and reiterated Apple’s position that Nokia’s F/RAND obligations required it to licence Nokia’s purportedly essential technologies.

Article 82. ...In or about May 2009, Nokia demanded a royalty approximately three times as much as the royalty proposed the prior spring, which was itself in excess of a F/RAND rate, as well as “picks’ to Apple’s non-standards-essential patents.


Nokia have been very naughty.

[gazonk]

Nokia turning to patent suits instead of winning with design and technology? Who would have thought a few years ago.

[cmaier]

do your research and then come back.

Nokia wants the same percentage from Apple as it has requested (and received) form every other mobile maker who weren't part of the original GSM co-alition.

change the location in your profile, you are giving the rest of us a bad name..;)

According to the pleadings, you're wrong. Nokia wanted a cross-license, which it got from no one else.

[aucl]

Apple should just buy nokia and buy another iTrademark.

Maybe iNokia, it can be a pet rock game for the new iSlate.

what about an iNuke: for hobby terrorists, dictators, pinky and the brain, and everyone else with world domination plans
they can send one to finland as settlement…

ok without kidding, patents somehow seem like these bad powerful things in corporate politics, much analogous to nukes, just that there are many corporate-heat-heads who do not think before using them...

[sjo]

It gets better. Apple outlines the nature of Nokia's potentially illegal strong-arm tactics. ( Apple specifically claims Nokia to be unlawful in article 84)

From Apple's counter-claim;

Article 81. In Particular, in or about the spring of 2008, Nokia demanded that, as part of it’s compensation for licensing Nokia’s portfolio of purported essential patents, Apple must grant Nokia a license to a particular number of Apple non-standards-essential patents...Apple immediately rejected the proposal and reiterated Apple’s position that Nokia’s F/RAND obligations required it to licence Nokia’s purportedly essential technologies.

Article 82. ...In or about May 2009, Nokia demanded a royalty approximately three times as much as the royalty proposed the prior spring, which was itself in excess of a F/RAND rate, as well as “picks’ to Apple’s non-standards-essential patents.

Nokia have been very naughty.

You conveniently leave out the parts were Apple tells that Nokia offered (at least twice, in the outset of the process and before filing their claim) a licensing based on monetary compensation only.

This is what makes me sick about fanboyism on this site, spreading lies and misinformation on purpose.

[surferfromuk]

You conveniently leave out the parts were Apple tells that Nokia offered (at least twice, in the outset of the process and before filing their claim) a licensing based on monetary compensation only.

This is what makes me sick about fanboyism on this site, spreading lies and misinformation on purpose.

post it then - let it stand....I can't basically post two entire 79 page suits can I.

how about;

Article 121. Apple is entitled to a declaratory judgment that Nokia has not to date offered it a license on F/RAND terms

that's Apple requesting what Nokia would not give!

However it's potentially irrelevant since the scope and nature of Nokia's anti-trust illegal enforcement may well result in this ;

Article 128. Nokia’s false representations to SSOs that it would license the patents it declared essential, including the patents-in-suit, on F/RAND terms and Nokia’s assertion of its wrongly obtained monopoly power against Apple constitutes patent misuse and renders the patents unenforceable.

[cmaier]

You conveniently leave out the parts were Apple tells that Nokia offered (at least twice, in the outset of the process and before filing their claim) a licensing based on monetary compensation only.

This is what makes me sick about fanboyism on this site, spreading lies and misinformation on purpose.

Nokia, in paragraph 44 of its complaint, says that all the offers it made to apple were subject to reciprocity.

[KnightWRX]

And you have to be really stupid to believe the crud your shovelling. The n900 has been available for about a whole week. At best they'll get 6 months lead time with a higher res display and camera. Thing is dozens of other phones have had higher res cameras and screens, they've not really turned out to be iPhone killers.

The most important thing about the iPhone is not a bullet point spec list, that's all the n900 has, and a second rate os to boot.

That goes double for the meamo tablets. They took a perfectly good linux and butchered i into a windows tablet edition b'stard offspring.

Second rate OS ? It's a full Linux distribution, with everything but the kitchen sink. Now who's being stupid ? Have you even ever used Maemo ?

Maemo is essentially Debian, with full apt-get, repositories, X, the whole she-bang. No jailbreaking or rooting your phone either, just a simple gnome-terminal and you type sudo gain-root on the command line.

Not to mention a big portion of the SDK is just pure GTK+, supports the same OpenGL ES 2.0 as the iPhone.

Maemo is far from second rate and the N900 has been available for what has now been 2 months, not a week. Maemo is also the same OS that is used on the tablets, like the N810. These have been available for quite some time, the N900 is just a smaller form factor tablet with a phone integrated in it.

And you forgot the most important points the N900 has :

- Upgradeable storage. The phone comes 16 Gig built-in, and you can put in SD cards for another 32 Gigs, so 48 Gigs top. But you can always have a few cards with you making it virtually limitless.
- Changeable battery! Wow, what a concept ;)

And yes, the specs are important. Well at least, when the iPhone is concerned and wins, specs sure to get mentionned a lot.

The rest of my points were still very valid and far from stupid. Apple is behind Nokia in worldwide market share. Nokia does seem to know a few things about selling phones if you ask me, they aren't just playing catch-up.

Seriously, if you guys want to defend Apple, at least don't lie about Nokia. This suit is very much about shades of grey. Apple is not in the right, Nokia is not in the right and that is why they are going in front of a judge, because 2 years of negotiations didn't manage to resolve the issue between them.

[kernkraft]

Nokia are Losers and Losers use Nokia :p

Also, only idiots would say something like that!

[MorphingDragon]

This is ridiculous Nokia. I hope that Sony Erricson comes down on their fiery chariot and sues you into oblivion.

Yes Sony has more dirt than Nokia.

Second rate OS ? It's a full Linux distribution, with everything but the kitchen sink. Now who's being stupid ? Have you even ever used Maemo ?

Maemo is essentially Debian, with full apt-get, repositories, X, the whole she-bang. No jailbreaking or rooting your phone either, just a simple gnome-terminal and you type sudo gain-root on the command line.

Not to mention a big portion of the SDK is just pure GTK+, supports the same OpenGL ES 2.0 as the iPhone.

Maemo is far from second rate and the N900 has been available for what has now been 2 months, not a week. Maemo is also the same OS that is used on the tablets, like the N810. These have been available for quite some time, the N900 is just a smaller form factor tablet with a phone integrated in it.

And you forgot the most important points the N900 has :

- Upgradeable storage. The phone comes 16 Gig built-in, and you can put in SD cards for another 32 Gigs, so 48 Gigs top. But you can always have a few cards with you making it virtually limitless.
- Changeable battery! Wow, what a concept ;)

And yes, the specs are important. Well at least, when the iPhone is concerned and wins, specs sure to get mentionned a lot.

The rest of my points were still very valid and far from stupid. Apple is behind Nokia in worldwide market share. Nokia does seem to know a few things about selling phones if you ask me, they aren't just playing catch-up.

Seriously, if you guys want to defend Apple, at least don't lie about Nokia. This suit is very much about shades of grey. Apple is not in the right, Nokia is not in the right and that is why they are going in front of a judge, because 2 years of negotiations didn't manage to resolve the issue between them.

GTK, why wouldn't they use QT, the far superior technology AND TECHNOLOGY THAT THEY OWN.

Seriously GTK? It makes an entire distribution look like it was made by mattel.

[Serelus]

very nice written, but it was not the answer to my question.
if it was all in negotiation for some time, why didn't they mention all the affected patents from the beginning when filing a suit.

Hahah, yes this is what I've been wondering too, while browsing through this thread.

[aristotle]

the basis of the GSM suit is well founded and is 100% in Nokia's favour. Apple even come close to admitting it.

I just don't know why Apple won't pay the same dues as everyone else..?

the rest of it I don't really know.
I don't think anyone is saying that Nokia does not have a right to payments but they are trying to charge 3 times the prescribed rates charged everyone else and it is possible that Apple was either willing or had already paid the normal prescribed licensing rates for the GSM technology.

Nokia not only wants more money but they want Apple cross license their patents. That is highway robbery.

[cumanzor]

Second rate OS ? It's a full Linux distribution, with everything but the kitchen sink. Now who's being stupid ? Have you even ever used Maemo ?
<snip>


Agreed. The iPhone is a great device, honestly, but saying that the N900 is a POS just to defend another device is just...... childish and completely unfounded.

Too bad it's way to expensive :( I'd like some Debian and some APT love in my pocket

GTK, why wouldn't they use QT, the far superior technology AND TECHNOLOGY THAT THEY OWN.

Seriously GTK? It makes an entire distribution look like it was made by mattel.

Agreed, well partly. QT is far far easier to work with, but GTK doesn't really have that toy-look you are talking about.

[ArrowSmith]

AAPL is in big trouble here. MSFT just lost a patent infringement suit and AAPL is next! Meow!

[KnightWRX]

GTK, why wouldn't they use QT, the far superior technology AND TECHNOLOGY THAT THEY OWN.

Seriously GTK? It makes an entire distribution look like it was made by mattel.

You mean why didn't they use Qtopia ? The mobile technology they have had for years and licensed to others ?

Probably because the wealth of easy to port GTK apps gives Maemo a tons of software and at first, Maemo was about tablets, not mobile phones. Qtopia is very much a phone technology.

[cmaier]

You mean why didn't they use Qtopia ? The mobile technology they have had for years and licensed to others ?

Probably because the wealth of easy to port GTK apps gives Maemo a tons of software and at first, Maemo was about tablets, not mobile phones. Qtopia is very much a phone technology.

http://qt.nokia.com/

[MorphingDragon]

You mean why didn't they use Qtopia ? The mobile technology they have had for years and licensed to others ?

Probably because the wealth of easy to port GTK apps gives Maemo a tons of software and at first, Maemo was about tablets, not mobile phones. Qtopia is very much a phone technology.

Nope, for tablets QT.

The irony of that sentence is, that in the Linux world. The same Apps are used anyway.

[aegisdesign]

If Nokia had all these patents in place, all of which they claim are what makes the iPhone the phone that it is, why didn't Nokia bring out their own "iPhone" long before Apple did?

None of the patents in this dispute have anything to do with what makes an iPhone and iPhone in most people's eyes with exception maybe of a single patent relating to swiping a screen to flip to another screen like on the iPhone's home screen. I don't know of a single Nokia phone that actually uses that gesture so why Apple are pursuing that, I have no idea. Maybe the N900 does although Apple seem to like citing the E71 in their lawsuit.

On the other hand, the LG GW520 one of the kids got for Christmas uses Apple gestures all over the place and even comes with a cute Leopard print background. Go sue LG and the other UI rippoff merchants Apple after paying Nokia for doing the hard work on the underlying telecom technology in your phone.

[KnightWRX]

http://qt.nokia.com/

Nope, for tablets QT.

The irony of that sentence is, that in the Linux world. The same Apps are used anyway.

I know of QT. QT doesn't make much sense for Maemo. Gnome is much more dominant right now and as been for the last 2 years with the KDE 4 debacle and there has always been many more GTK+ apps than QT apps, which in turn means more developpers who already know the API.

Qtopia would've made sense if Maemo would've been phone technology from day 1, pure QT ? Not so much.

[dukebound85]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (Linux; U; Android 1.6; en-us; Archos5 Build/Donut) AppleWebKit/528.5+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.1.2 Mobile Safari/525.20.1)

Wow. Where will all this end up?

I tink that one of the pioneers of modern telecommunication want what they deserve.

(Cue cries of "Nokia fanboy")

Without Nokia (and the others involved in the development of gsm technology), you wouldn't have an iPhone.

no kidding


i love how its ok for apple to steal ideas from others but god forbid if someone takes apples

last i saw, nokia has been in the phone industry muuuuc longer than apple

[kzin]

With a bit of luck cooler heads at Nokia will intervene and they'll ask a reasonable price for the rights to the GSM patent stack.

They already did. Apple refused to pay the same reasonable price that Nokia asks from everyone else. Thus the lawsuit.

Nokia must be scared by the success of the iPhone.

Or they just want to get paid for all of that innovation they did, for which they rightfully deserve to be compensated, and that Apple is refusing to pay for.

[aegisdesign]

"73. Even if Apple were to subsequently pay past due F/RAND royalites, it would still enjoy a market share it otherwise would not have but for the period of “free riding.” Nokia would likewise lose its portion of the market share for the period of the “free riding.” Due to the difficulty in predicting whether, if at all, such market share can be recovered, Nokia’s harm cannot be compensated by payment of past due F/RAND royalties alone."


So if Apple had been paying the royalites from the beginning, thier market share would be different now?

HOW SO?

Apple's share would be less (in theory according to Nokia) because they've have to charge more for the iPhone to pay the licences. By not paying the licence fees, Apple can sell the iPhone for less unlike other licencees or companies such as Nokia who have invested billions in R&D for the features that Apple is free riding on.

I don't think Nokia are necessarily right as the iPhone is already way more expensive than the competition but perhaps Apple's profits would not be so high or there would be less carriers willing to subsidise so heavily. So, there's some logic there.

[cmaier]

They already did. Apple refused to pay the same reasonable price that Nokia asks from everyone else. Thus the lawsuit.

Not according to what Nokia plead in their complaint. They asked for reciprocity from the get-go according to paragraph 44.

[alexhasfun28]

Uh-Oh! Nokia is DOOMED!

Maybe they should of just kept their mouth shuts, instead of risking their patents and possibly the company.
:apple:

[koobcamuk]

apple's going to do the same on them, let's see who wins...
instead of that they could try to make some good phones as they used to do
Since i was a kid i've been having nokia handsets and they worked fine... as a phone! then iphone came out and changed what a good phone is.
The good thing is that if nokia or google or any other make better machines, apple will have to keep up!

Every single other handset I still own, holds signal better than the iPhone. I don't know if it's hardware or software, but it surely is not the network as any other phone is just fine.

iPhone sucks at being a phone - it's good for little apps and things to keep the middle classes from being bored.

[kzin]

You mean why didn't they use Qtopia ? The mobile technology they have had for years and licensed to others ?

Probably because the wealth of easy to port GTK apps gives Maemo a tons of software and at first, Maemo was about tablets, not mobile phones. Qtopia is very much a phone technology.

Nokia hasn't had QT for years (less than 2, but I think it's closer to 1). They just bought Trolltech relatively recently.

And, Maemo isn't a "was", it's an "is". The N900 is already being distributed to early adopters, and is a Maemo phone. Maemo was always designed with the plan to eventually be used on phones. Nokia said so from early on, calling it a 5 phase plan (of which the N900 is phase 4). So, even though it was prototyped and developed using tablets, it was always about phones.

Why they decided to switch from GTK to QT isn't clear to me though. Possibly because QT is more cross platform? That's about the only thing I can think of.

[KnightWRX]

Uh-Oh! Nokia is DOOMED!

Maybe they should of just kept their mouth shuts, instead of risking their patents and possibly the company.
:apple:

Are you also going to post the following in the Psystar thread :

Uh-Oh! Apple is DOOMED!

Maybe they should of just kept their mouth shuts, instead of risking their license and possibly the company.

Makes about as much sense. :rolleyes:

[adztaylor]

Oh no, will someone please protect Steve Jobs from all this nastiness that's going on. Something non-Apple is trying to affect everything the great master has done. We need to wrap him up in cotton wool.

[Goona]

Nokia is still the largest mobile phone manufacturer by a huge margin. It's larger than the 2nd and 3rd together. It hasn't lost market share.

Apple needs to pay for the essential patents they're using in iphone. There're is just no way around it. It gets all the time more strange that they didn't pay up in the beginning.

To get some other facts straight, Nokia did approach Apple already in 2007 when first iphone was launched, offering them the same fair and non-discriminating terms everyone else in the industry uses.

You know this because? I'm sure you were privy to the meetings between Apple and Nokia. :rolleyes:

[ranguvar]

Most probably it's some kind of ridiculous complaint about how Apple used a lens for their camera or created a touch user interface that's controlled with fingers or about how there are processors and chips in the iPhone as opposed to having built one with bread, cheese and butter.

Seriously, most of these patent complaints (and the patents themselves) are pretty ridiculous. Quite a lot of the things they file patents for are really trivial things.
I remember that one iPod patent that included voice control and what it said was basically "the user says something into the microphone and then the iPod analyzes what the user said and does some kind of action". I think we can agree that this is just a paraphrase of "voice control".

Patent complaints are mostly just a way for companies to make (or loose) money and battle each other in court.

Nokia and Apple should step out of court and innovate!

[aegisdesign]

It gets better. Apple outlines the nature of Nokia's potentially illegal strong-arm tactics. ( Apple specifically claims Nokia to be unlawful in article 84)

From Apple's counter-claim;

Article 81. In Particular, in or about the spring of 2008, Nokia demanded that, as part of it’s compensation for licensing Nokia’s portfolio of purported essential patents, Apple must grant Nokia a license to a particular number of Apple non-standards-essential patents...Apple immediately rejected the proposal and reiterated Apple’s position that Nokia’s F/RAND obligations required it to licence Nokia’s purportedly essential technologies.

Article 82. ...In or about May 2009, Nokia demanded a royalty approximately three times as much as the royalty proposed the prior spring, which was itself in excess of a F/RAND rate, as well as “picks’ to Apple’s non-standards-essential patents.


Nokia have been very naughty.

That doesn't sound naughty at all.

That sounds like Nokia, after trying to licence and Apple saying NO, tried two more times giving Apple options and they still said NO whilst Apple persistently infringed.

So Nokia asks the court to settle what the fees should be and Apple counter-sues.

Apple are being jerks. Just pay up already like everybody else has. It's peanuts. It's less than this court battle will cost you. Or just let Nokia use some of your patents in exchange? What's the worst than can happen? Nokia are more interested in lower priced phones and business phones where you don't compete, not shiny hipster toys.

[MorphingDragon]

I know of QT. QT doesn't make much sense for Maemo. Gnome is much more dominant right now and as been for the last 2 years with the KDE 4 debacle and there has always been many more GTK+ apps than QT apps, which in turn means more developpers who already know the API.


Just because a Desktop is more dominant than another desktop in a 1% market share doesn't mean QT is used less. When really, QT is used more than GTK.

GTK is for GUI. QT is a complete SDK comparable to .Net and Cocoa. Lets see what professional devs use QT.

Google, Skype, KDE, Asus, Samsung, Sun, opera, Adobe, HP, Sony, Barco, RealFLow, Roku, Kangaroo, ZTE, Naviflash, Volkswagon, BMW, HGZ, Honda, SAAB, Satoti Hydro, GE, Oracle, Mita, Phzer AMD, Philips, Novell and the list goes on and on and on.

GTK? Redhat.... Novell...

...

Does GTK have native multitouch. Does GTK have thread management. Does GtK have file handlers. Is GTK able to be naively used with OO programming. is GTK designed form the gorund up to be cross platform.

[Goona]

The only things that I dislike about Apple are the fanboys. How stupid and blind can you people really be?

And how stupid and blind can some of you idiotic haters be?

[Povilas]

I know of QT. QT doesn't make much sense for Maemo. Gnome is much more dominant right now and as been for the last 2 years with the KDE 4 debacle and there has always been many more GTK+ apps than QT apps, which in turn means more developpers who already know the API.

Qtopia would've made sense if Maemo would've been phone technology from day 1, pure QT ? Not so much.

It's not about Gnome or KDE it's about efficiency GTK far more bloated uses mor RAM and takes more rendering power. QT is a lot lighter in all aspects.

[Goona]

They did. For years they have been using their patents on low power GSM integration in their handsets. Almost every company that makes a GSM phone uses the same technology. Just because this patent is older, doesn't make is any less valid. Other companies have been paying Nokia their fair share, why hasn't Apple?

Apple and a few other tech giants seem to think that they are untouchable in the legal system because of cash flow. That ongoing childish battle with Apple Corps. in which Apple Computer finally won and then became Apple Co. is a good example.

For years MS operated this way and they are living in the bed they made. The latest injunction over MS Word shows the futility. If Apple wants to smear Nokia as these private legal battles become public, that is their prerogative.

I doubt very much that Nokia is doing this to make a profit. If Nokia is doing as poorly as everyone claims, and Apple is doing as well as everyone claims; it would seem like a futile uphill struggle to continue for the underdog.

If Apple wants to continue to ignore Patents that they are using and not paying for, I hope they get what is coming to them. Same goes for Nokia, SE, DELL, Palm, Moto and the rest.

The Finns gave us the first GSM phone call almost 20 years ago. You have a lot to thank them for. The very fact that Nokia still manufactures phones in Finnland, is AWESOME. I would die if I could buy a quality computer made in the USA still.

So I guess Apple should go ahead and pay 3 times the industry rate because the Finns gave us the first GSM phone call right? :rolleyes:

[McBeats]

LOL @ nokia.

nuff said

[Goona]

Except for the fact that Apple says in its filings in the court case that they have been in negotiations with Nokia for over 2 years now to license these patents.

Nokia is not a new Psystar, if anything, it's Apple that is improperly using someone else's intellectual property here.

This isn't black and white. Nokia is ahead of Apple by about 3 orders of magnitude in the cellphone market. They are ahead in the technology game with the N900 (vs the 3GS) and Maemo tablets (vs the rumored Apple products).

Nokia isn't a bad guy, Apple isn't a good guy and reverses aren't true either. This is just 2 corporations that didn't see eye to eye on licensing issues and couldn't find common grounds in 2 years of negotiations. Now they're going to have the courts decide. This is precisely why there are courts and a justice system.

No your Nokia is just a greedy company who wants some of Apple's profits, that's why they want them paying 3 times the industry rate. Why should Apple be treated any different, is it because they have a product that they are making billions off. You must be kidding me.

[aegisdesign]

Why they decided to switch from GTK to QT isn't clear to me though. Possibly because QT is more cross platform? That's about the only thing I can think of.

Yep. Qt 4.6 came out a month or so back and now includes a port to Symbian S60 V3 FP1 and later. It's a beta release on Maemo 5 and of course still runs on Windows, OSX, Linux and a few other OSs.

If you were writing a mobile application for Symbian and Maemo, QT would be it.

[Goona]

Quoted for Truth. Nokia is trying to change licensing terms in order to export triple the amount of money as well as access to Apple's patents.

According to the Nokia fanboys, Apple should pay whatever Nokia demands!

[KnightWRX]

No your Nokia is just a greedy company who wants some of Apple's profits, that's why they want them paying 3 times the industry rate. Why should Apple be treated any different, is it because they have a product that they are making billions off. You must be kidding me.

Sorry my Nokia ? I don't even own a single Nokia product, much less have a job with them or even stock.

Where did you get *MY* nokia from ?

Just because a Desktop is more dominant than another desktop in a 1% market share doesn't mean QT is used less. When really, QT is used more than GTK.

GTK is for GUI. QT is a complete SDK comparable to .Net and Cocoa. Lets see what professional devs use QT.

Google, Skype, KDE, Asus, Samsung, Sun, opera, Adobe, HP, Sony, Barco, RealFLow, Roku, Kangaroo, ZTE, Naviflash, Volkswagon, BMW, HGZ, Honda, SAAB, Satoti Hydro, GE, Oracle, Mita, Phzer AMD, Philips, Novell and the list goes on and on and on.

GTK? Redhat.... Novell...

...

Does GTK have native multitouch. Does GTK have thread management. Does GtK have file handlers. Is GTK able to be naively used with OO programming. is GTK designed form the gorund up to be cross platform.

You're missing a few facts. Maemo doesn't need cross-platform, since it's one platform. They have an API for most of what QT does, GTK is only used for GUI parts because like you said, GTK is about GUI (glib abstracts a lot of other parts and is usually always used with GTK). Maemo is pretty much about drawing in open source devs, and in open source, GTK+ is more popular right now (and as been for about ever) than QT.

This was about leveraging the open source community. The fact is, they are now moving to eating their own dogfood and moving to QT for Maemo 6.0. They will also change their browser from Mozilla to Webkit. Nokia isn't dumb. GTK probably made more sense initially and now QT makes more sense moving into the future.

According to the Nokia fanboys, Apple should pay whatever Nokia demands!

I haven't read that in this thread. I've seen a few neutral people who look at facts say Apple should pay something to Nokia to use the patents, and that a suit makes sense if the companies can't negotiate proper licensing terms.

[ThunderSkunk]

Ok, my reaction as a potential customer is: instant blacklist of Nokia products in my company and household.

Having thrown this out there, they sure as hell better win to change my mind, because otherwise, they're just another shi**y company with too many lawyers and not enough product innovation.

[Goona]

ITC typically acts in the interest of American companies, where's Qualcomm based? The chance that the ITC will make any such ban on products of an American company that have been shipping for years. Zero to None.

I'm sure the dude would like that to happen. He has a public vendetta against Steve Jobs and Apple which he is running on the internet.

[MorphingDragon]

Yep. Qt 4.6 came out a month or so back and now includes a port to Symbian S60 V3 FP1 and later. It's a beta release on Maemo 5 and of course still runs on Windows, OSX, Linux and a few other OSs.

If you were writing a mobile application for Symbian and Maemo, QT would be it.

Its also cross platform on all operating systems with little porting.

[Goona]

Nope, Nokia has asked for exactly the same amount (5 percent of revenue), Apple doesn't even deny that. They are just saying that it is to much. Quite a tough argument as 30+ mobile companies agreed to pay the exactly same amount to Nokia before. Even those companies that sued Nokia because of their patents asked for that amount because it's been the standard FRAND amount in the mobile sector. Just Apple didn't want to pay.

So Apple said "Ok, we're not licencing your tech because it's too much for us, we're just stealing it! HAHA!"

Errrrrrrrrrrrrm, they asked for 3 times the industry rate in May of this year, why should Apple pay 3 times the industry rate, please tell us.

[aegisdesign]

No your Nokia is just a greedy company who wants some of Apple's profits, that's why they want them paying 3 times the industry rate. Why should Apple be treated any different, is it because they have a product that they are making billions off. You must be kidding me.

Apple are the only ones saying that. Nokia asked the courts to decide what was fair and what Apple should pay.

Seems to me they wouldn't ask the courts to decide unless they were happy with an outcome of "what everyone else pays".

[Goona]

If you want your tech toys not made in China, another good reason to buy Nokias--the high-end ones are made in Finland ;)

You know most things in the world are now made in China especially electronics but yet we're still living, I wonder why they aren't making everything in Finland. If you use electronics in this day and age, it's probably being made in China, deal with it.

Apple are the only ones saying that. Nokia asked the courts to decide what was fair and what Apple should pay.

Seems to me they wouldn't ask the courts to decide unless they were happy with an outcome of "what everyone else pays".

So Apple is lying then about Nokia asking then to pay 3 times the industry rate?

[surferfromuk]

That doesn't sound naughty at all.

That sounds like Nokia, after trying to licence and Apple saying NO, tried two more times giving Apple options and they still said NO whilst Apple persistently infringed.

So Nokia asks the court to settle what the fees should be and Apple counter-sues.

Apple are being jerks. Just pay up already like everybody else has. It's peanuts. It's less than this court battle will cost you. Or just let Nokia use some of your patents in exchange? What's the worst than can happen? Nokia are more interested in lower priced phones and business phones where you don't compete, not shiny hipster toys.

I suggest you read Apple's claim to gain a complete understanding of the situation. You will realise just how bad this really is for Nokia.

And why do I say that? Because....

Apple either clearly has documentary evidence to support it's claims that Nokia was attempting unlawful extortion in face of it's F/RAND obligations or they don't.

My feeling is they most obviously do otherwise they wouldn't have gone with a counter-claim and wouldn't make continual and repeated reference to it, nor would they pointlessly refused to pay a FAIR and REASONABLE NON-DISCRIMINATORY rate had they been offered it.

[Goona]

Stupid but true. Look at the specs on the N900. They beat the 3GS to a pulp. Look at the Maemo tablets, they have been shipping for quite some time ( ie, years).

Look at smartphone Market share. Nokia is 40% to Apple's 16%.

So it's only stupid if you're blinded by Apple love and can't see facts.

Yeah I see the facts alright, even with their supposed higher marketshare, Apple is making more profits off their iphone than Nokia. No wonder why Nokia wants some of their profits.

[Rocketman]

Nokia, in paragraph 44 of its complaint, says that all the offers it made to apple were subject to reciprocity.

I am afraid to say that is the smoking gun. Admission against interest.

Rocketman

[KnightWRX]

Yeah I see the facts alright, even with their supposed higher marketshare, Apple is making more profits off their iphone than Nokia. No wonder why Nokia wants some of their profits.

Profit only means Apple makes higher margins off their devices, not that they sell more or better quality devices.

In fact, quite the contrary, Apple making more profit only goes to show that Apple is scamming you in a sense. I wouldn't make that argument to promote any kind of intelligence on the part of Apple. :rolleyes:

Seriously, you're grasping at straws. Nokia has patents that Apple needs to license. They can't agree to the terms. The courts will decide, and Apple will end up paying. This will end in settlement. Both sides are just pilling up the charges as way to push negotiations. This is business as usual.

[Goona]

Interesting - Nokia are going for damages resulting from what it perceives is lost market share. No wonder Apple are fighting it - this could result in massive open ended settlement.

From Nokia's filing ;


73. Even if Apple were to subsequently pay past due F/RAND royalites, it would still enjoy a market share it otherwise would not have but for the period of “free riding.” Nokia would likewise lose its portion of the market share for the period of the “free riding.” Due to the difficulty in predicting whether, if at all, such market share can be recovered, Nokia’s harm cannot be compensated by payment of past due F/RAND royalties alone.

Where are all the Nokia fanboys? Nokia are jealous of Apple's marketshare that they have gained. They also know Apple is making billions of the iphone. I wonder why Nokia with all the marketshare they will ever need is worried about the small and irrelevant marketshare according to the Nokia fanboys that Apple has. :rolleyes:

[MacNorway]

Stupid but true. Look at the specs on the N900. They beat the 3GS to a pulp. Look at the Maemo tablets, they have been shipping for quite some time ( ie, years).

Look at smartphone Market share. Nokia is 40% to Apple's 16%.

So it's only stupid if you're blinded by Apple love and can't see facts.

Specs don't mean crap. All that matters is if it works or not. It doesn't matter how nice big boobs the girl has or how beautiful she is if she's dumbass stupid and can't suck.

Nokia spent how many years building that market share? And Apple? And how many Maemos have you seen in the wild?

[aegisdesign]

So Apple is lying then about Nokia asking then to pay 3 times the industry rate?

They actually alleged Nokia asked for three times what they'd offered the previous year, not three times the industry rate, whatever that is.

If you're suggesting the second offer was three times the industry rate then the implication is that Apple initially refused to pay even the "industry rate" whatever that is.

I suspect what actually happened was that Nokia offered a very low rate but included use of patents in the deal. Apple refused to include patents so the second offer was higher to reflect that.

[*LTD*]

alleging infringement of Nokia-held patents by "virtually all" Apple products, including the iPhone, iPod, and Mac.

Absolute lunacy. I'm dying to see this play out, if only to get a better sense of just how far this company has degenerated.

[zacman]

So Apple is lying then about Nokia asking then to pay 3 times the industry rate?

Why don't you even read the complaint? Nokia offered the same amount as they asked all other companies (paragraph 45). Apple does not even deny that.

The 3 times higher amount is including the compensation of damages that Nokia asked for after Apple rejected the initial offer under the FRAND rules.

So Apple didn't want to pay the FRAND amount first and later didn't want to pay the compensations. They turn out just to be nothing more than thieves.

[darkplanets]

Seriously, you're grasping at straws. Nokia has patents that Apple needs to license. They can't agree to the terms. The courts will decide, and Apple will end up paying. This will end in settlement. Both sides are just pilling up the charges as way to push negotiations. This is business as usual.
This.

It seems like this thread is just running around in circles between Nokia haters and lovers. I have not read all of the court documents, so I do not know the exact situation, but if Nokia failed to offer F/RAND and then subsequently re offered twice more (also not F/RAND), as suggested, then this whole thing could quite easily get arbitrated by the court. Nokia is at fault then.

Failure to offer F/RAND is against the law (as far as my non-legal self is aware), so therefore Apple had the right to refuse the terms of the licensing. More than likely, if the court finds this to be the case, it will arbitrate the terms of the licensing, as knight has also said, and the other counter suits will more than likely be dropped.

If Apple is in the wrong however, and Nokia did offer F/RAND, then they could be in for some legal fees.

As for the whole ITC thing... well, I've never had much respect for the ITC to begin with, but I could see their ruling having little effect on the overall situation. With todays markets there are many ways around an ITC ruling, and that's only provided that the countries involved actually care.

Just my two cents.

[*LTD*]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2009/dec/29/nokia-apple

The ITC usually takes up to 30 days to rule on whether it will pursue a complaint, indicating that the basis of Nokia's claims will be weighed up by the end of January. The court cases, meanwhile, are not expected to be heard until 2011.

[KnightWRX]

As for the whole ITC thing... well, I've never had much respect for the ITC to begin with, but I could see their ruling having little effect on the overall situation. With todays markets there are many ways around an ITC ruling, and that's only provided that the countries involved actually care.

Just my two cents.

The ITC thing is just something to push settlement negotiations. Nokia wants this settled and wants its money. Apple probably wants the same thing, hence their patent counter-suit.

This is a game and it needs to be played. No one is 100% wrong or right. If it was so easy, we wouldn't need courts.

The "Apple can do no wrong" crowd needs to chill out and learn to keep an open mind.

[zacman]

alleging infringement of Nokia-held patents by "virtually all" Apple products, including the iPhone, iPod, and Mac.

Absolute lunacy. I'm dying to see this play out, if only to get a better sense of just how far this company has degenerated.

The Macs and the iPod (touch) all include wireless lan technology which is also part of the initial lawsuit. Nokia just didn't include the other products in the law suit first because they probably thought that Apple would just be clever and pay for the iPhone. Instead Apple decided to counter sue. Nokia is now threatening to stop Apple's whole business.

Remember when almost all SanDisk MP3 players that were imported into the EU got distrained a few years ago because a chip manufacturer didn't pay Fraunhofer for their patents (Sisvel) and SanDisk was the only company that didn't want to pay for it. Same could happen to Apple very quickly. There is no such obligation in EU law to licence technology to other companies like it is in the US law (FRAND).

See for example: http://www.sisvel.com/english/news/sisvelnews/sisvelandsandiskatif
http://www.design-reuse.com/news/14997/sisvel-sandisk-additional-legal-troubles-sandisk-mp3-players.html

[darkplanets]

The ITC thing is just something to push settlement negotiations. Nokia wants this settled and wants its money. Apple probably wants the same thing, hence their patent counter-suit.

This is a game and it needs to be played. No one is 100% wrong or right. If it was so easy, we wouldn't need courts.

The "Apple can do no wrong" crowd needs to chill out and learn to keep an open mind.

Agreed.

[aegisdesign]

I suggest you read Apple's claim to gain a complete understanding of the situation. You will realise just how bad this really is for Nokia.

I've read both claims now. Apple's claim is ridiculous. I own an E71, referred to many times throughout their claim and Apple's assertions as to what Nokia is infringing is frankly silly. Have Apple used an E71 for any length of time?

But, Nokia's claim is also pretty silly too in places.

It seems both of their lawyers have to claim 200 points to make sure they score on 20. After the sabre rattling, it will get sorted. Moneywise I read Apple were basically complaining about 35M in licence fees - ie. this is not about the money.

I can only hope that some of Apple's patent claims get thrown out in this, particularly their claims for the notification system they inherited from Taligent.

[surferfromuk]

They actually alleged Nokia asked for three times what they'd offered the previous year, not three times the industry rate, whatever that is.

If you're suggesting the second offer was three times the industry rate then the implication is that Apple initially refused to pay even the "industry rate" whatever that is.

I suspect what actually happened was that Nokia offered a very low rate but included use of patents in the deal. Apple refused to include patents so the second offer was higher to reflect that.

Clarification. From Apple's filing

Article 82. Nokia demanded a royalty three times as much as the royalty proposed prior sping, which was itself in excess of a F/RAND rate, as well as “picks” to Apple’s non-standards-essential patents. Nokia never represented that its 2008 demand was below F/RAND, and it’s tripling of that demand in May 2009 was in flagrant violation of it’s F/RAND commitments. Apple again refused to agree...

Article 83. Finally, Nokia made demands in or about September 2009, just prior to filing suit, for highly excessive royalties virtually identical to those sought by Nokia two years earlier at the outset of the parties negotiation.

Article 80. Apple has no obligation, under law of otherwise, to license these non-standards-essential patents to Nokia. Thus, Nokia is seeking unlawfully and unfairly to leverage the monopoly power it obtained from its false F/RAND commitments to SSO’s to obtain licenses to Apple’s proprietary technology ( to which Nokia in not entitled) that would enable Nokia to develop products with feature now unique to the iPhone. Nokia’s demand for license terms that are unfair, unreasonable, and discriminatory constitues a breach of Nokia’s F/RAND commitments.

[robbyx]

Ah, the last desperate attempt of a failing company. When you can't compete in the market, resort to litigation. They will fail. And in a few years Nokia will be an also-ran. Perhaps they should have tried innovating?

[surferfromuk]

I've read both claims now. Apple's claim is ridiculous. I own an E71, referred to many times throughout their claim and Apple's assertions as to what Nokia is infringing is frankly silly. Have Apple used an E71 for any length of time?

But, Nokia's claim is also pretty silly too in places.

It seems both of their lawyers have to claim 200 points to make sure they score on 20. After the sabre rattling, it will get sorted. Moneywise I read Apple were basically complaining about 35M in licence fees - ie. this is not about the money.

I can only hope that some of Apple's patent claims get thrown out in this, particularly their claims for the notification system they inherited from Taligent.

I think Apple's counter patents open a whole new can of worms and could drag it out for years.

In their entirety they represent the ability for Apple to at least stop Nokia producing any kind of gesture based touch screen mobile device and could serve as a precedent for multi-touch that the rest of the industry would rather not see ratified. At worst they could force endless software and innumerable component level platform technology 'switches' to be undertaken at Nokia that would likely cost them two years to market.

[Bevz]

LMAO... :) You just can't write comedy like this...

[cmaier]

Apple are the only ones saying that. Nokia asked the courts to decide what was fair and what Apple should pay.

Seems to me they wouldn't ask the courts to decide unless they were happy with an outcome of "what everyone else pays".

Read Nokia's pleading. They never specify what they asked for in terms of money, but they do specify that they asked for a reciprocal license.

[aegisdesign]

I think Apple's counter patents open a whole new can of worms and could drag it out for years.

In their entirety they represent the ability for Apple to at least stop Nokia producing any kind of gesture based touch screen mobile device and could serve as a precedent for multi-touch that the rest of the industry would rather not see ratified. At worst they could force endless software and innumerable component level platform technology 'switches' to be undertaken at Nokia that would likely cost them two years to market.

There's only ONE Apple patent that relates to the UI and it's easily avoided by removing swipe gestures to switch screens - just stick a button on the screen that switches screens.

It's a little more difficult for Apple to avoid the patents in the GSM spec.

[cmaier]

Why don't you even read the complaint? Nokia offered the same amount as they asked all other companies (paragraph 45). Apple does not even deny that.

The 3 times higher amount is including the compensation of damages that Nokia asked for after Apple rejected the initial offer under the FRAND rules.

So Apple didn't want to pay the FRAND amount first and later didn't want to pay the compensations. They turn out just to be nothing more than thieves.

Read paragraph 44 of the nokia complaint, where it says "reciprocal."

[xlii]

Come on, Nokia... show us the love...

[surferfromuk]

There's only ONE Apple patent that relates to the UI and it's easily avoided by removing swipe gestures to switch screens - just stick a button on the screen that switches screens.

It's a little more difficult for Apple to avoid the patents in the GSM spec.

List scrolling and document translation, scaling, and rotation on a touch-screen display - for one - there are others which relate to aspects of the UI.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=7,469,381.PN.&OS=PN/7,469,381&RS=PN/7,469,381

Apple don't have to avoid the GSM patents - they will, at worst, simply pay market F/RAND rates (like they wanted to), at best have the court declare Nokia's patents unenforceable due to their illegal activity. Either way NOTHING can stop Apple using those patent technologies as that is part of Nokias legal admittance to the GSM standard, but for Nokia to receive an injunction against the core patent technologies they are already using will cause Nokia a lot more trouble.

[aegisdesign]

Read Nokia's pleading. They never specify what they asked for in terms of money, but they do specify that they asked for a reciprocal license.

I don't see how that is necessarily unfair though. Most companies have reciprocal licensing agreements.

[MacBram]

...
I haven't read that in this thread. I've seen a few neutral people who look at facts say Apple should pay something to Nokia to use the patents, and that a suit makes sense if the companies can't negotiate proper licensing terms.

Then read every post. More than a few have said that Apple is refusing to pay anything at all and think that they are above the law and something special. At the same time they have said that Nokia is asking only what is right and fair, and have increased the scope of the complaints only because Apple has repeatedly and arrogantly refused to respond to the respectful requests by Nokia for its due recompense. That much is very clear on the pro-Nokia side from even a cursory reading of this thread.

And yet, the simple facts from the pro-Apple side of this thread, yet to be refuted, are overwhelmingly that:
a) Apple does not appear to have refused to pay the going industry rate for the standard patent licensing
b) Us *fanboys* think that yes, Apple SHOULD pay the going industry rate.
c) Nokia is singling out Apple (why?), and asking THREE TIMES the going rate in a discriminatory manner, despite committing itself to an established non-discriminatory plan for the licensing.
d) Nokia is putting its foot in it and compounding its error by asking for access to Apples private IP that do not pertain to industry standards.

[aegisdesign]

List scrolling and document translation, scaling, and rotation on a touch-screen display - for one - there are others which relate to aspects of the UI.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=7,469,381.PN.&OS=PN/7,469,381&RS=PN/7,469,381

Apple don't have to avoid the GSM patents - they will, at worst, simply pay market F/RAND rates (like they wanted to), at best have the court declare Nokia's patents unenforceable due to their illegal activity. Either way NOTHING can stop Apple using those patent technologies as that is part of Nokias legal admittance to the GSM standard, but for Nokia to receive an injunction against the core patent technologies they are already using will cause Nokia a lot more trouble.

That's the patent I meant. Really, it's minor and is barely used in S60. Nokia's S60 V5 Touch interface is very basic. If anything, I'd be more worried if I was Google as their Maps application infringes more of those gestures. I don't think that patent will stand long.

There's 2-3 patents from the Taligent Pink days that are more worrying to be honest dealing with low level OO stuff and notifications that you'd think were fundamental to any modern OS.

[Matti]

It gets better. Apple outlines the nature of Nokia's potentially illegal strong-arm tactics. ( Apple specifically claims Nokia to be unlawful in article 84)

From Apple's counter-claim;

Article 81. In Particular, in or about the spring of 2008, Nokia demanded that, as part of it’s compensation for licensing Nokia’s portfolio of purported essential patents, Apple must grant Nokia a license to a particular number of Apple non-standards-essential patents...Apple immediately rejected the proposal and reiterated Apple’s position that Nokia’s F/RAND obligations required it to licence Nokia’s purportedly essential technologies.

Article 82. ...In or about May 2009, Nokia demanded a royalty approximately three times as much as the royalty proposed the prior spring, which was itself in excess of a F/RAND rate, as well as “picks’ to Apple’s non-standards-essential patents.


Nokia have been very naughty.
You conviniently left out Articles 80 and 83 where Apple states that in 2007 and autumn 2009 Nokia offered licensing without any cross licensing.




Looking at both Apple's and Nokia's court papers:

2007: Negotiations started. Nokia offered licensing with only monetary compensation. (Only money)

2008: Nokia switched to offering licensing on the basis of mostly crosslicensing terms. (Lots of patent cross licensing + some money)

Spring 2009: Nokia changed offer again. (Mostly money + few patents)

Autumn 2009: Nokia went back to 2007 offer. (Only money)

October 2009: Nokia sues.





This new Nokia complaint and Apple's couter-complaint two weeks ago are just negotiation tactics. Bottom line is that the matter is still really about the GSM patents in the original Nokia complaint. Rest is just usual large corporation legal tactics.

We might get actual legal ruling on whetever Nokia's offers were in line with FRAND principles or if Apple was really trying to piggyback on Nokia's innovation, but it's far more likely that this will be setled by corporate lawyers behind closed doors.

[aristotle]

I don't see how that is necessarily unfair though. Most companies have reciprocal licensing agreements.
The key word here is "agreement". Both parties have to agree to such an arrangement. What is happening here is Nokia is trying to force Apple to pay extra and license patents to them.

[cmaier]

I don't see how that is necessarily unfair though. Most companies have reciprocal licensing agreements.

It's not a typical element of a FRAND licensing agreement, however. By definition it is not "ND" since the cost/value of such a term will vary wildly depending on who the licensee is.

[teddy07x]

b) Us *fanboys* think that yes, Apple SHOULD pay the going industry rate.
c) Nokia is singling out Apple (why?), and asking THREE TIMES the going rate in a discriminatory manner, despite committing itself to an established non-discriminatory plan for the licensing.
.

I think that has been answered pretty clearly several times in this forum.
and not to be an ******* or anything, but it seems you are too busy picking a fight and posting for posting sakes rather than reading what it's all about.

Read the siliconlaw dude's posts, maybe you'll learn something.

If apple really had balls it would offer all their iphone patents to the GSM pool. And in return, become a partner with nokia and the others.

In the end we as consumers would benefit from it the most.
Regardless of fanboy or not.

[surferfromuk]

That's the patent I meant. Really, it's minor and is barely used in S60. Nokia's S60 V5 Touch interface is very basic. If anything, I'd be more worried if I was Google as their Maps application infringes more of those gestures. I don't think that patent will stand long.

There's 2-3 patents from the Taligent Pink days that are more worrying to be honest dealing with low level OO stuff and notifications that you'd think were fundamental to any modern OS.

That's the problem though - it stops Nokia from progressing.

I don't think Apple has really wanted to push some of those patents since the debacle with Microsoft (which we all know had everything to do with a certain 'one page contract' given to Microsoft by John Sculley for what reason we shall never know).

However, we all know Nokia doesn't have such a letter - unless it's going to borrow Microsofts ?

In response to your question about why it's unfair for Nokia to demand 'grant-backs' in relation to technology developed and granted admittance to the SSO.

Article 26. Having suffered losses in the marketplace, Nokia has resorted to demanding exorbitant royalties from Apple for patents that Nokia claims are essential to various compatibility standard for mobile wireless telecommunications and wireless computing that Apple practices...Nokia’s demand for unreasonable royalties and grantbacks violate the promises Nokia made to the SSOs that developed and adopted these standards : to license purported essential patents on F/RAND terms. Nokia never told SSOs that is would not be willing to license its purported essential patents on F/RAND terms if it considered the prospective licenses to be a threat competitively, or that is would insist on grantbacks to non-standards-essential patents from potential licensees holding patents that Nokia desired to License.

Article 50. Nokia’s representations that it would license its purported standards-essential patents on F/RAND terms were false, and enabled Nokia to obtain the “hold-up” power it now abusively seeks to wield.

[surferfromuk]

You conviniently left out Articles 80 and 83 where Apple states that in 2007 and autumn 2009 Nokia offered licensing without any cross licensing.




Looking at both Apple's and Nokia's court papers:

2007: Negotiations started. Nokia offered licensing with only monetary compensation. (Only money)

2008: Nokia switched to offering licensing on the basis of mostly crosslicensing terms. (Lots of patent cross licensing + some money)

Spring 2009: Nokia changed offer again. (Mostly money + few patents)

Autumn 2009: Nokia went back to 2007 offer. (Only money)

October 2009: Nokia sues.





This new Nokia complaint and Apple's couter-complaint two weeks ago are just negotiation tactics. Bottom line is that the matter is still really about the GSM patents in the original Nokia complaint. Rest is just usual large corporation legal tactics.

We might get actual legal ruling on whetever Nokia's offers were in line with FRAND principles or if Apple was really trying to piggyback on Nokia's innovation, but it's far more likely that this will be setled by corporate lawyers behind closed doors.

Post 233 has them in.

However, you conveniently left out article 78 and 79 ;-)

Article 78 Late 2007 Apple and Nokia began negotiating a licence

Article 79 ...Throughout the negotiations, Apple made clear to Nokia, that except for one specific family of patents, Apple would not agree to cross-licence to Nokia any of it's patents ( in particular those relating to iPhone technology).

Look, I suggest people read the thing - I'm not hiding anything - it's a massive article - I can only post so much of it, plus (disclosure) I am not posting Nokia's filing - you've created a composite of two filing there which is just too subjective - at least by only posting Apple's stuff I can claim clarity and at the very least bias :-)