2010 Mac Pro Wish list

[JesterJJZ]

I know we've had these threads before, but I find them fun, and the time is nearing for a refresh. :)

Without getting ridiculous, there are really only a couple things I really want to see in a new Mac Pro.

More drive space. Even room for one additional drive somewhere would be great. Ideally, 2 additional 2.5" bays for a pair of SDDs would be nice.

An extra PCIe slot. Just one more would help a lot. Either that or give us one port-multiplied eSATA port on the back. Oh heck, just give us both. :D

I just want to see some more improvements other than speed and under the hood stuff.

[J the Ninja]

-6 RAM slots per processor
-Use the 32nm quad cores to pull off an all-dual socket line up, thus making 12 RAM slots standard.
-Go back to using rubber mounting pins for the fans. It's not that hard.
-Put some foam or something on the side panel, for God's sakes. It's an incredibly cheap and easy way to quiet a machine down without. sacrificing cooling. It's not like the panel has vents in it now or anything.
-Magnetic clips for the panel instead of the pins.
-SD card slot.
-"New" style power switch.
-No tiny "BOOSTA"* fans. Put the CPUs side-by-side, and use one big fan.




*Apple engineers, we know you used that naming system and capitalization just to have a "boosta" in the computer. It's cute, now use the name for a fan that doesn't make awful high-pitched humming noises.

[parakiet]

- keep current pricing
- 6 ram slots idd
- starting at 2,8 or 2,9 ghz

no other requests :)

[chmilar]

- Update the graphics cards to the latest models.

- Offer SSD option.

- 6 RAM slots per processor.

- eSATA and SD card ports.

- Lower price for entry-level dual proc config.

[gugucom]

Start updating firmware to the state of the art
Have an EFI menue with user settable parameters such as AHCI and RAID mode for Windows and other elements
Use the memory capabilities from SPD instead of castrating the IMC
Provide south bridge capable of througput for 3 SSDs in RAID0
Offer RAID card that boots OS X and Windows as well as EFI
Provide power from the PSU directly to the ODD bay
Provide Molex power from the PCIe bay
Offer HDD/SSD sleds with 2,5" and 3,5" mounting

[Icaras]

- keep current pricing

Really? Why? I thought we've established that the 09 Mac Pros are totally overpriced.

[JesterJJZ]

Really? Why? I thought we've established that the 09 Mac Pros are totally overpriced.

Maybe he meant don't increase the price...

[kellen]

I think it needs more ports on it. More USB, more firewire and E-sata.

Ram obviously needs more slots.

Minor change to the look to make above happen.

[VirtualRain]

Start updating firmware to the state of the art
Have an EFI menue with user settable parameters such as AHCI and RAID mode for Windows and other elements
Use the memory capabilities from SPD instead of castrating the IMC
Provide south bridge capable of througput for 3 SSDs in RAID0
Offer RAID card that boots OS X and Windows as well as EFI
Provide power from the PSU directly to the ODD bay
Provide Molex power from the PCIe bay
Offer HDD/SSD sleds with 2,5" and 3,5" mounting


Nice list. All are achievable on Apple's part without much additional cost except for the south bridge limitation which is an Intel problem.

Add to this, 6 DIMM slots per processor, and a solution to the temp problems , and you would have a winning product.

[parakiet]

Maybe he meant don't increase the price...

idd..

[nanofrog]

Nice list. All are achievable on Apple's part without much additional cost except for the south bridge limitation which is an Intel problem.

Add to this, 6 DIMM slots per processor, and a solution to the temp problems , and you would have a winning product.
+1. That would make for a very nice system indeed. :)

Intel does need to redevelop the ICH for faster throughputs, but it's not happening on the next system AFAIK, as the chipset is to remain the same. So even if a new ICH drops, it's still connected by a 2GB/s DMI (1GB up/down), and still have a less than desirable limit. Perhaps an improvement, but not what should really be there, given what SSD's out in the wild can do.

[VirtualRain]

+1. That would make for a very nice system indeed. :)

Intel does need to redevelop the ICH for faster throughputs, but it's not happening on the next system AFAIK, as the chipset is to remain the same. So even if a new ICH drops, it's still connected by a 2GB/s DMI (1GB up/down), and still have a less than desirable limit. Perhaps an improvement, but not what should really be there, given what SSD's out in the wild can do.

Agreed... Ideally, Intel ultimately develops an ISRC (Integrated SATA RAID Controller) on the CPU die that supports six 6GB/s links directly to the CPU with dedicated on-die cache, and IO coprocessor to support parity calculations, etc. :D

IMHO, such on-die I/O would be a much better use of silicon than continually increasing core-counts that software just can't utilize.

[nanofrog]

Agreed... Ideally, Intel ultimately develops an ISRC (Integrated SATA RAID Controller) on the CPU die that supports six 6GB/s links directly to the CPU with dedicated cache, and IO coprocessor to support parity calculations, etc. :D
This is what I'm hoping for, but it won't show up until the next Tock cycle in the accompanying chipset at the earliest .

[kellen]

My hope is that they discount the 09's like they did with the 08's when the newer models came out.

[InfoSecmgr]

I would second comments about a lower priced "entry level" machine, sort of like the 1.6GHz G5. I had that particular machine outfitted with 4GB of RAM and was very happy with it for a long time.

[InfoSecmgr]

Agreed... Ideally, Intel ultimately develops an ISRC (Integrated SATA RAID Controller) on the CPU die that supports six 6GB/s links directly to the CPU with dedicated on-die cache, and IO coprocessor to support parity calculations, etc. :D

IMHO, such on-die I/O would be a much better use of silicon than continually increasing core-counts that software just can't utilize.

Thats half the reason why I haven't purchased a quad-core or higher Mac. I understand that multiple cores is the "way of the future", but most applications users like me (non-professional) use simply do not take advantage of them.

Edit: I know I'm probably going to get lots of "then you don't need a Mac Pro anyway" comments. Let me clarify, I don't use my Mac's for the "usual" professional applications most Mac users utilize such as Photoshop and the like. I am an information security manager and run applications that, more often than not, run via x-11 or the command line.

[InfoSecmgr]

I think it needs more ports on it. More USB, more firewire and E-sata.

Ram obviously needs more slots.

Minor change to the look to make above happen.

One thing I always seem to be short on is USB ports.

[eyefoniac]

Blu-Ray

[voyagerd]

Everything else everybody stated would be great. I definitely want more PCIe power cables though for additional GPUs.

[InfoSecmgr]

Everything else everybody stated would be great. I definitely want more PCIe power cables though for additional GPUs.

How many PCIe x16 slots do they have now?

[Topper]

.
Nvidia GTX 360
.

[Cynicalone]

I like the idea of adding four 2.5" HDD Bays above or below the current 3.5" bays.

We really need more RAM slots.

I would like to see some ESATA ports, and more USB 2.0, FW800 ports wouldn't hurt. I not sure about support for USB 3.0 yet. Apple tends to lag behind on adopting new interfaces.

A better RAID card would be nice, but I'm not holding out much hope for it.

[CaptainChunk]

My wishes (some of them already stated):

1. Faster internal SATA controller. 660MB/s is not enough for SSDs in RAID.

2. Bring back the old "floating" SATA header design. We shouldn't have to hack our systems with 3rd party parts to install real RAID cards that also function with the internal drives.

3. Blu-ray drive option AND HDCP compliant BD video playback. 10Mbps streaming video is NOT a replacement for 50Mbps BD movies. Wishful thinking knowing Apple, but come on!

4. More graphics card options. For 2009, we got a mediocre GT120, an overpriced Radeon 4870 and a pricey aftermarket GTX285.

5. 6 DIMM sockets per CPU. This is spec for tri-channel memory on current Intel Xeon workstations. Why can't Apple comply?

6. At least one eSATA port on the rear.

7. Airport Express cards should be standard in every Mac Pro.

9. Slightly unrelated, but Apple really needs to refresh the 30" ACD and perhaps offer a 27" model using the same panel from the 27" iMac to position in between the lineup.

9. (This applies to iMacs, too) Offer a backlit keyboard. PBG4 and MBP owners have been spoiled for years with this and I think it would go over well in a slimline desktop keyboard as well.

There's probably more i haven't thought of...

[smacman]

Top 3 for me would be:

1) Fix the CPU / Audio issue.
2) Better officially supported GPU options.
3) At least two, 2.5" drive bays in addition to what we currently have.

[Nostromo]

1. Competitive pricing, not overpricing like the 2009 Mac Pros.

2. AirPort card standard.

3. Put in a good video card from the get-go, not some cheap consumer product.

4. Solve heat problems and power consumption problems.

5. Bigger, slow spinning fans and good noise control overall.

6. No lame duck entry level unit like the 2006 4-core which tricked many people thinking they were getting a true workstation. A Mac Pro must be a true workstation. I don't want to get a Mac Pro that's being overtaken in speed within months by the next generation iMac (this happened to the 2009 4-core).

7. Extend warranty on Mac Pros to 3 years without having to buy an extended warranty.

[Mhkobe]

Core I9 (not Xeon) - It is powerful enough for me that renderings won't take all night, and I won't be using as a server, so ECC doesn't matter to me.

Radeon HD 5870 six standard

Six RAM slots per CPU

New 30" Cinema display

USB 3.0

[InfoSecmgr]

1. Competitive pricing, not overpricing like the 2009 Mac Pros.

2. AirPort card standard.

3. Put in a good video card from the get-go, not some cheap consumer product.

4. Solve heat problems and power consumption problems.

5. Bigger, slow spinning fans and good noise control overall.

6. No lame duck entry level unit like the 2006 4-core which tricked many people thinking they were getting a true workstation. A Mac Pro must be a true workstation. I don't want to get a Mac Pro that's being overtaken in speed within months by the next generation iMac (this happened to the 2009 4-core).

7. Extend warranty on Mac Pros to 3 years without having to buy an extended warranty.

I very much agree with the video card statement. I'd like to see a solid workstation grade card with at least 1GB of vRAM.

[ildondeigiocchi]

1. Lower pricing
2. Slightly larger case with same or slightly altered design
3. Better GPU options... move towards high end products like ATI 5800 or 5900 series (preferably the latter) or NVIDIA GTX300 series.
4. More dedicated power for GPUs. 600 or 800W instead of 300W. Provide six and 8 pin pci express connectors
5. 2.5" slots for SSD's
6. Ready to use AHCI mode for Windows
7. Refresh to the Apple Cinema Displays ... offer a 32" option

Althought these may be just wishful thinking it's always worth hoping for. :rolleyes:

[Nostromo]

I'd like to have a fast eSATA port, too. (Someone mentioned here that eSATA isn't at its maximum speed in the Mac Pro)

[JesterJJZ]

Has any manufacturer offered a computer with eSATA built in?

[Umbongo]

Has any manufacturer offered a computer with eSATA built in?

Acer, Dell, HP and Lenovo all have systems with eSATA ports.

[phaedarus]

Given my budget, the most I can hope for are lowered prices on used 2008 eight-cores Mac Pros.

Prices are still ridiculously high.

[JesterJJZ]

What are the chances we could get more PCIe slots? Is it even technically possible, case and size issues aside.

[Nostromo]

The entry level model with a single 6-core should be around $1800.

The entry level 2x 6-core should be around $2500.

I'm ready to pay a premium for a Mac over a similarly equipped PC.

But not $1000+.


PS: Does anybody know what price Apple will have to pay for one 6-core processor?

[Fast Shadow]

Non ridiculous pricing.

Non ridiculous video card options and pricing.

Better video card driver support.

When I was a kid I dreamed of being able to afford a Mac II, or IIx - these were priced in the $8,000 to $10,000 range. And while prices have certainly fallen, relatively speaking, it hasn't been proportional to the way PC prices have dropped. And there really aren't good reasons for it.

It disappoints me that there are kids out there who could make as much use of a modern Mac Pro as I could have with a Mac II back in the day, who are basically locked out because of Apple's ridiculous barrier to entry pricing. That doesn't just go for the MP models, but they are the worst offenders.

[phaedarus]

Non ridiculous pricing.

Non ridiculous video card options and pricing.

Better video card driver support.

When I was a kid I dreamed of being able to afford a Mac II, or IIx - these were priced in the $8,000 to $10,000 range. And while prices have certainly fallen, relatively speaking, it hasn't been proportional to the way PC prices have dropped. And there really aren't good reasons for it.

It disappoints me that there are kids out there who could make as much use of a modern Mac Pro as I could have with a Mac II back in the day, who are basically locked out because of Apple's ridiculous barrier to entry pricing. That doesn't just go for the MP models, but they are the worst offenders.

What's worse are owners of Mac Pros who do little more than use it for surfing the web, email, facebook, twitter, etc - Basically employing them as a general consumer would.

Then they turn around and sell it claiming that it's too much computer for them. I use to sit in stunned silence whenever I read listings of that sort but it's becoming more frequent that it makes me wonder if there are a disproportionate number of people who are buying these systems simply because they have money to burn.

It's sad.

[hwhalers]

What are the chances we could get more PCIe slots? Is it even technically possible, case and size issues aside.

There'd need to be a case redesign, but they could put more in there. I'd love two more myself. Hell, even one. Also on the 'not going to happen' wishlist: 10GBASE-T and something like Trans Intl's Pro Caddy to fit 2 (Or 4, this is the unrealistic list :)) SSDs in the never-going-to-be-used second optical bay.

As for my realistic wishlist: 128GB maximum RAM and a Dodeca with a base price under 4 key.

[hwhalers]

-

[JesterJJZ]

There'd need to be a case redesign, but they could put more in there. I'd love two more myself. Hell, even one. Also on the 'not going to happen' wishlist: 10GBASE-T and something like Trans Intl's Pro Caddy to fit 2 (Or 4, this is the unrealistic list :)) SSDs in the never-going-to-be-used second optical bay.

As for my realistic wishlist: 128GB maximum RAM and a Dodeca with a base price under 4 key.

I love for them to just make the case a couple inches taller and add 2 drives and PCIe slots. Here's a quick mockup of what I want.

[Fast Shadow]

What's worse are owners of Mac Pros who do little more than use it for surfing the web, email, facebook, twitter, etc - Basically employing them as a general consumer would.

Then they turn around and sell it claiming that it's too much computer for them. I use to sit in stunned silence whenever I read listings of that sort but it's becoming more frequent that it makes me wonder if there are a disproportionate number of people who are buying these systems simply because they have money to burn.

It's sad.

I think the MP is an amazing machine and there just isn't a substitute for having expansion slots and room for multiple 3.5" drives. A real desktop. I wish they were more accessible. Mac marketshare may be up compared to 2000, but it's still down compared to the late 1980's and early 1990's. Everyone's been shouting for a mid tower for years, I wish Apple would listen.

[hwhalers]

I love for them to just make the case a couple inches taller and add 2 drives and PCIe slots. Here's a quick mockup of what I want.

That would be glorious. I know everyone says this (:p), but I'd pay extra for that. Alas.

[Bennieboy©]

I love for them to just make the case a couple inches taller and add 2 drives and PCIe slots. Here's a quick mockup of what I want.

that would be beyond awesome but, ya know it's not going to happen lol :P

[Fast Shadow]

I love for them to just make the case a couple inches taller and add 2 drives and PCIe slots. Here's a quick mockup of what I want.

Heat would be a real problem for the two drives in the top left.

[JesterJJZ]

Heat would be a real problem for the two drives in the top left.

Not if they were somehow limited to SDDs.

[alphaod]

Not if they were somehow limited to SDDs.

They could probably offer an SSD boot drive option like the XServe… something like a 1.8" 160GB X18-M slotted somewhere would be nice. That would be small enough to fix anywhere in the computer without changing a thing… of course that wouldn't really add more slots or drive capacity.

The problem with the added 2 drive sledges is addressing where the rails would go?

[Nostromo]

In regards to the case, how up to date is it in terms of "minimize heat" and "silent computing"?

[VirtualRain]

Why do people need more than 4 PCIe slots?

[nanofrog]

Why do people need more than 4 PCIe slots?
Possibilities:

Multiple graphics cards for either multi monitor configs, or GPGPU use (need to be 16x or 8x lane slots ideally)


Multiple RAID cards (again, 8x slots ideally, though in some cases, a 4x will do, depending on the card and drives used)


FC or even an Infiniband card (I've not seen this on MP's, but it's possible, such as needing to attach to a cluster or large high throughput network storage system)


Specific industry/use related cards, such as the BlackMagic and a couple of others that may need more than the slot config or quantity available (i.e. combinations that need more slots or lanes than is available)

I know it's possible to use a PCIe expander (additional slots that are switched to one in the system, but it's not only expensive, it could cause a bottleneck in some situations).

For most though, I'm assuming they'd just like to have them for possible future use. ;)

[VirtualRain]

Possibilities:

Multiple graphics cards for either multi monitor configs, or GPGPU use (need to be 16x or 8x lane slots ideally)


Multiple RAID cards (again, 8x slots ideally, though in some cases, a 4x will do, depending on the card and drives used)


FC or even an Infiniband card (I've not seen this on MP's, but it's possible, such as needing to attach to a cluster or large high throughput network storage system)


Specific industry/use related cards, such as the BlackMagic and a couple of others that may need more than the slot config or quantity available (i.e. combinations that need more slots or lanes than is available)

I know it's possible to use a PCIe expander (additional slots that are switched to one in the system, but it's not only expensive, it could cause a bottleneck in some situations).

For most though, I'm assuming they'd just like to have them for possible future use. ;)

Do you really need more than 4 slots to do any of that though? You could pick any two of those and still not need more than four slots.

[ekwipt]

GFX Card
Raid Card
Capture Card (AJA, Blackmagic etc.)
Audio card
DSP Card (UAD2)

That's 5 for me and you could possibly need more Audio + DSP Slots as well as extra room for peripheral slots of various cards

Or a Pro tools System example:

Pro Tools|HD 3 Accel
1 HD Core card and 2 HD Accel cards (PCI), or 1 Accel Core card and 2 HD Accel cards (PCIe)
Up to 96 channels of I/O (160 maximum with additional DSP)
Up to 192 simultaneous (256 total) audio tracks at 44.1/48 kHz, 36 at 192 kHz
Up to 128 instrument tracks; 256 MIDI tracks

GFX card and your full

[Dr.Pants]

5970 as a BTO option - run at least three displays.

RAID card with SAS support and actually has some care put into it.

1333MHz or higher RAM standard.

Solved audio.

More PCIe lanes (four more at least)

And with the price in mind for a 2008 system.

[nanofrog]

Do you really need more than 4 slots to do any of that though? You could pick any two of those and still not need more than four slots.
In some cases, yes (or more lanes per slot 3 and/or 4 might be what some users actually need).

For example, 1 graphics card for OS X, 1 graphics card for Windows (i.e. a professional card as there's software used that can utilize it), 1 RAID card, 1 eSATA card (since eSATA's not included on any MP's to date), but the lane configuration isn't ideal (4 lanes short for the RAID card <8x lane models> - it will work in a 4x lane slot, but there's a potential it will be throttled). Add say a BlackMagic capture card to it, and you need an extra slot as well.

It's not impossible anyway. ;)

[JesterJJZ]

Why do people need more than 4 PCIe slots?

Ideally, I need at least 5.

[Nostromo]

1333MHz or higher RAM standard.



Good idea.

[macuserx86]

SD card slot? really? really?

If they put a reader in it better be very fast and support all formats (especially CF).

[JesterJJZ]

SD card slot? really? really?

If they put a reader in it better be very fast and support all formats (especially CF).

They should but a reader in the keyboards.

[Icaras]

They should but a reader in the keyboards.

This is the best idea i've heard about the SD card slot. Makes complete sense. The only problem i see are with the wireless keyboards. Could they offer one in those? My details on bluetooth are hazy but I'm pretty sure it has large bandwidth limitations.

Still, it would be wonderful to transmit photos wirelessly. :)

[macuserx86]

This is the best idea i've heard about the SD card slot. Makes complete sense. The only problem i see are with the wireless keyboards. Could they offer one in those? My details on bluetooth are hazy but I'm pretty sure it has large bandwidth limitations.

Still, it would be wonderful to transmit photos wirelessly. :)

This isn't meant to be elitist or anything of that nature, but what "pro" camera uses SD cards? I know the Canon Mark bodies have a slot for one, but other than that no one uses SD for "pro" applications. The Mac Pro needs a CF slot ;)

[JesterJJZ]

This isn't meant to be elitist or anything of that nature, but what "pro" camera uses SD cards? I know the Canon Mark bodies have a slot for one, but other than that no one uses SD for "pro" applications. The Mac Pro needs a CF slot ;)

Actually, lots...

Not sure about pro still cameras, but many pro video cameras record to SD cards. Panasonic and Sony have a bunch now. I was under the impression that CF was dying. What's the capacity on those now anyway? Panasonic just introduced 64GB SDXC cards.

[artivideo.nl]

The only pro cards for Video are P2 cards, the rest is at most prosumer !!!


Actually, lots...

Not sure about pro still cameras, but many pro video cameras record to SD cards. Panasonic and Sony have a bunch now. I was under the impression that CF was dying. What's the capacity on those now anyway? Panasonic just introduced 64GB SDXC cards.

[Icaras]

This isn't meant to be elitist or anything of that nature, but what "pro" camera uses SD cards? I know the Canon Mark bodies have a slot for one, but other than that no one uses SD for "pro" applications. The Mac Pro needs a CF slot ;)

Yea I wasn't singleing out just for Mac Pro though. Afterall, the keyboard is included with imacs as well.

[ildondeigiocchi]

5970 as a BTO option - run at least three displays.

That would be the ideal card... chances are we won't get it but we can dream;)

[hwhalers]

The only pro cards for Video are P2 cards, the rest is at most prosumer !!!

XDCAM EX owners would argue with you ;).

[VirtualRain]

This isn't meant to be elitist or anything of that nature, but what "pro" camera uses SD cards? I know the Canon Mark bodies have a slot for one, but other than that no one uses SD for "pro" applications. The Mac Pro needs a CF slot ;)

I recently purchased a new Canon Digital SLR and noticed the higher-end cameras are using CF (even the latest EOS 7D)... that was a big turn-off for me... why is that?

[NotChemist]

Actually, lots...

Not sure about pro still cameras, but many pro video cameras record to SD cards. Panasonic and Sony have a bunch now. I was under the impression that CF was dying. What's the capacity on those now anyway? Panasonic just introduced 64GB SDXC cards.
Actually, not lots... Professional DSLRs still use CF predominantly, though a few include an SD slot as a "backup." Professional video cameras on the higher end (not counting the expensive rental-only stuff) use P2, SxS (Sony's ExpressCard-based flash), writable Blu-ray, tape, or hard drive storage. Lower end, just-above-prosumer level cameras may use SD, CF, tape, or built-in flash or hard disks. BTW, CF is up to at least 128GB now, if we want to include unavailable extremely expensive products in the comparison.
I recently purchased a new Canon Digital SLR and noticed the higher-end cameras are using CF (even the latest EOS 7D)... that was a big turn-off for me... why is that?
Because CF has had larger capacities for longer than SD has had them. CF cards are bigger, sturdier, more reliable, harder to lose in the field, etc. Why are CF cards such an issue for you? Because Steve Jobs thinks SD cards are "professional"? ;)

[Varmann]

This upcoming board from EVGA certain looks like a MacPro dream:
Evga Classified dual proc board 270GT-W555 (http://www.techreaction.net/2010/01/07/exclusive-new-evga-classified-dual-proc-board-270-gt-w555/)

2nd link (http://www.overclock3d.net/news/cpu_mainboard/evga_s_monster_board_revealed/1)

2 CPU
12 memory slots
7 16x PCIe
Sata 6Gbps
USB 3

[JesterJJZ]

This upcoming board from EVGA certain looks like a MacPro dream:
Evga Classified dual proc board 270GT-W555 (http://www.techreaction.net/2010/01/07/exclusive-new-evga-classified-dual-proc-board-270-gt-w555/)

2nd link (http://www.overclock3d.net/news/cpu_mainboard/evga_s_monster_board_revealed/1)

2 CPU
12 memory slots
7 16x PCIe
Sata 6Gbps
USB 3

I don't understand why the MacPro doesn't have a board like that.

[xgman]

I don't understand why the MacPro doesn't have a board like that.

it's doubtful, but we will have to wait and see. sure would be nice to see the 2010 mp have usb 3.0 at least.

[macgeek18]

Since getting my PowerMac G5 yesterday I'm in love my the Mac Pro's now.I would like to see the new Intel Xeon 6 core processors and more firewire 400 ports.even my G5 doesn't have enough of them.

[JesterJJZ]

it's doubtful, but we will have to wait and see. sure would be nice to see the 2010 mp have usb 3.0 at least.

If they don't give us a Blu-Ray option, they should at least address the issue. Pretending it doesn't exist is ridiculous.

[hwhalers]

If they don't give us a Blu-Ray option, they should at least address the issue. Pretending it doesn't exist is ridiculous.

Apple isn't pretending it doesn't exist. For the Mac Pro, it actually doesn't exist to them. As a high-end consumer device, they'd prefer people bought HD movies off the iTunes store. As a workstation, the inability to play HD movies is inconsequential, as it does reasonably well in producing them. BD-R data storage works. But even if it didn't, people use hard drives more than optical media these days anyway. The files are just too big. And those that don't use HDs would probably use DLTs over BD-R anyway. So it's entirely unsurprising to me that Blu-Ray playback isn't a big concern.

Note that I don't agree with this assertion, at all, in any capacity. It's just my opinion of Apple's viewpoint. Also in my opinion, nothing will change with the next refresh. Maybe with the next consumer machines, but I still doubt it. I would not be surprised if Macs never get native Blu-Ray support. I bet it'll have eSATA, though. The timing is pretty awful on this machine in terms of future standards, the chances of USB 3.0 and Light Peak are next to nil. The model after this one will probably be a considerable change of pace, in a lot of ways.

As backwards as it may seem for some, there's people who need to fill a machine with cards and run tasks locally. It's still sometimes unaffordable/not possible to distribute, and Light Peak/whatever won't replace internal busses for a while. At that point everything will look different, and the concept of the personal computer might very well be dead and buried, leaving only information devices and workstations and above. There will probably still be a Mac Pro for the Munich winter games, though :p.

[Fuzzy.Dunlop]

Haven't had a mac pro (13") for long (two days in fact) but one flaw I have noticed is the usb ports.

I'm stuck on mobile broadband for a month until my broadband's sorted - and the proximity of the usb ports means once the mobile broadband stick is in one port nothing else can fit into the other port. Kinda lame if you want to sync your ipod/use an external hard drive etc..

[Cathode]

Haven't had a mac pro (13") for long (two days in fact) but one flaw I have noticed is the usb ports.

I'm stuck on mobile broadband for a month until my broadband's sorted - and the proximity of the usb ports means once the mobile broadband stick is in one port nothing else can fit into the other port. Kinda lame if you want to sync your ipod/use an external hard drive etc..

I think you're referring to a MacBook Pro. The Mac Pro is a 60 pound desktop workstation with plenty of USB ports on both the front and back of the tower.

[Icaras]

I think you're referring to a MacBook Pro. The Mac Pro is a 60 pound desktop workstation with plenty of USB ports on both the front and back of the tower.

It's also not a unibody design :D

[Fuzzy.Dunlop]

I think you're referring to a MacBook Pro. The Mac Pro is a 60 pound desktop workstation with plenty of USB ports on both the front and back of the tower.

:rolleyes:

Nice one comic book guy - Now you've had your geek joke you can go back to warcraft

[Techhie]

I think you're referring to a MacBook Pro. The Mac Pro is a 60 pound desktop workstation with plenty of USB ports on both the front and back of the tower.

I guess I am the only one who is calling for a couple extra in the refresh then :rolleyes:

[Nostromo]

If they don't give us a Blu-Ray option, they should at least address the issue. Pretending it doesn't exist is ridiculous.

DMR kills Blu Ray for use on Macs. It's just too much legal hassle.

And you don't need it. Hard drive space is cheap, and flash drives are reusable and read faster than discs.

[pastrychef]

1. No support for Blu-ray
2. SATA 3
3. eSATA ports
4. USB 3
5. More 16x PCI-e slots
6. Firewire S1600 and S3200
7. Apple Remote
8. Reasonably priced SSD options

[ildondeigiocchi]

1. No support for Blu-ray
2. SATA 3
3. eSATA ports
4. USB 3
5. More 16x PCI-e slots
6. Firewire S1600 and S3200
7. Apple Remote
8. Reasonably priced SSD options

Why exactly wouldn't you want bluray support. At least it would put Apple on par with tech as Windows machines.

[J the Ninja]

:rolleyes:

Nice one comic book guy - Now you've had your geek joke you can go back to warcraft

I'm not sure this really counts. You weren't even in the right BOARD.

P.S. Warcraft and WoW (which you probably meant) are distinctly different games. :P </comicbookguy>

[Icaras]

Why exactly wouldn't you want bluray support. At least it would put Apple on par with tech as Windows machines.

I don't get it either. To predict it is one thing. To add a feature that you don't want on your wish list is another, even considering the complete possibility that Apple could simply implement it as simple a CTO, which wouldn't hurt people who don't want or need said feature.

After 2009's impressive blu-ray adoption, I can't think of a reason why one would not want the option.

[pastrychef]

Why exactly wouldn't you want bluray support. At least it would put Apple on par with tech as Windows machines.

http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2007/08/aacs-tentacles.ars

[Icaras]

http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2007/08/aacs-tentacles.ars

Quote from your linked article:

Also, not supporting Blu-ray or HD DVD would be completely ridiculous, as it's rather clear that the studios aren't going to let go of Blu-ray anytime soon (fate of HD DVD is less certain). I don't think Apple is ready to tell its customers in 12 months that they can't watch Blu-ray discs on their laptops because Apple will sell the same movies on iTunes.

Even if DRM is the bane of blu-ray's existence, it has widespread industry support, something I don't think Apple can afford to ignore for too long.

[Icaras]

Also, worth noting is that this article is dated 2007, which is kind of a long time ago. Things have gotten better for blu-ray in terms of royalty rates in 2008/2009. Its much more affordable to publish and manufacture blu-ray content, which just leads to more and more widespread industry support, hence why we've just witnessed a massive boom in 2009. We'll see more of this domino effect continue this year and beyond.

Though I'm unsure if its DRM policy has been affected, I'm confident things will only improve over time as blu-ray continues to hit critical mass.

[DarwinOSX]

Really? Why? I thought we've established that the 09 Mac Pros are totally overpriced.

Compared to what? These are workstation class machines and as such are in many cases cheaper than Windows workstation while being much higher quality.

[nanofrog]

Compared to what? These are workstation class machines and as such are in many cases cheaper than Windows workstation while being much higher quality.
Actually, the comparable workstations (using CPU P/N parity from the base models, as absolute parity is impossible, which is intentional) have actually been cheaper. Especially the Quads. If you move to faster CPU's, the price comparison gets closer.

But you also need to keep in mind that the PC variants have better warranties (3yr on-site included), better graphics choices, and can actually utilize 1333MHz DDR3 (as the '09's are fixed to 1066MHz).

[pastrychef]

Also, worth noting is that this article is dated 2007, which is kind of a long time ago. Things have gotten better for blu-ray in terms of royalty rates in 2008/2009. Its much more affordable to publish and manufacture blu-ray content, which just leads to more and more widespread industry support, hence why we've just witnessed a massive boom in 2009. We'll see more of this domino effect continue this year and beyond.

Though I'm unsure if its DRM policy has been affected, I'm confident things will only improve over time as blu-ray continues to hit critical mass.

I'm more concerned with the hooks to the OS that it requires.

In regards to the studios not letting go of it, I feel that the days of physical media are numbered and don't see the need for Blu-ray on a computer. Secondly, if I wanted to watch an HD movie, I do it on my couch on a TV and not in my office chair in front of my computer. I have an optical drive capable of playing DVDs on my computer. I can't remember the last time I watched a DVD on my computer.

[Fomaphone]

XDCAM EX owners would argue with you ;).

so might a few RED shooters.

i'd like to see cheaper fibre optic and RAID options from apple.

in regard to apple blu ray support, i see it becoming something that people can specifically request if they want it from apple, and if not i'll just wait for the eventual linux hack. in the meantime, it's worth getting a ps3.

[Nostromo]

Actually, the comparable workstations (using CPU P/N parity from the base models, as absolute parity is impossible, which is intentional) have actually been cheaper. Especially the Quads. If you move to faster CPU's, the price comparison gets closer.

But you also need to keep in mind that the PC variants have better warranties (3yr on-site included), better graphics choices, and can actually utilize 1333MHz DDR3 (as the '09's are fixed to 1066MHz).

Let's hope Apple is going to close the gap a bit in 2010, especially on the lower priced Mac Pros.

With all those high end gamers out there Apple should really try to work up more sales for its workstations.

This includes more attractive pricing and weeding out half-ass machines like the 2009 lame duck Quad.

[gugucom]

DMR kills Blu Ray for use on Macs. It's just too much legal hassle.

And you don't need it. Hard drive space is cheap, and flash drives are reusable and read faster than discs.

This is just repeating Apple propaganda. Apple make money with inferior online distribution of low res "HD" materials. This is why they don't support BD play back. It is annoying to switch to Windows on Mac Pro to watch a Blu Ray movie but I still do it. And every time I do it I curse bloody Steve Jobs for his crooked ways of pushing iTunes.

[hwhalers]

This is just repeating Apple propaganda.

Are you denying that there's difficulties in supporting Blu-Ray playback? At least in the US there are, as Apple has to take extensive precaution against 'misuse' as defined by the content owners.

It just so happens that the technical complications are a convenient excuse to not bother, and push their download service. That's not so much malicious as it is lucky for Apple.

[smacman]

This is just repeating Apple propaganda. Apple make money with inferior online distribution of low res "HD" materials. This is why they don't support BD play back. It is annoying to switch to Windows on Mac Pro to watch a Blu Ray movie but I still do it. And every time I do it I curse bloody Steve Jobs for his crooked ways of pushing iTunes.

I couldn't agree more. It really amazes me how people instantly accept everything Apple pushes their way, even if it only serves Apple's interests.

gugucom,

How do you get around the whole HDCP compliant issue in Windows, or is it not an issue with your hardware / display?

[nanofrog]

How do you get around the whole HDCP compliant issue in Windows, or is it not an issue with your hardware / display?
Apple's been quietly updating the hardware to HDCP compliance (i.e. graphics cards). Most, if not all 3rd party monitors are as well, so it tends to work under Windows with more recent systems. :)

It's just that Apple would have to pay licensing fees to Sony, and it could affect the iTunes sales (and as mentioned, it's of lower quality than BD's can provide). So most likely, there's no compelling reason to do so else it could impact their bottom line negatively in thier opinion.

[smacman]

Apple's been quietly updating the hardware to HDCP compliance (i.e. graphics cards). Most, if not all 3rd party monitors are as well, so it tends to work under Windows with more recent systems. :)

It's just that Apple would have to pay licensing fees to Sony, and it could affect the iTunes sales (and as mentioned, it's of lower quality than BD's can provide). So most likely, there's no compelling reason to do so else it could impact their bottom line negatively in thier opinion.

I would love to figure out a clean way of getting Blu Ray Playback to work in Windows with my 30" ACD which is not HDCP compliant.. The only solution I have found is AnyDVD which seems to be hit and miss for some people...

[Icaras]

Compared to what? These are workstation class machines and as such are in many cases cheaper than Windows workstation while being much higher quality.

Sorry, I am not disputing the quality of these machines. I was simply echoing what I thought was the general consensus here on the forums since benchmarks have already proven that the 08 models seem to be the better value for the money. And Nano explained it better.

I'm more concerned with the hooks to the OS that it requires.

In regards to the studios not letting go of it, I feel that the days of physical media are numbered and don't see the need for Blu-ray on a computer. Secondly, if I wanted to watch an HD movie, I do it on my couch on a TV and not in my office chair in front of my computer. I have an optical drive capable of playing DVDs on my computer. I can't remember the last time I watched a DVD on my computer.

But talking about about which location you find it personally preferable to view a movie says nothing about the future of physical media. :confused: Besides simply viewing blu-ray movies for consumers, there are already those here that rip blu-ray content and what about blu-ray authoring for professionals?

I do not see the days of physical media numbered, no matter how much argument is thrown about at how much cheaper hard drives are in comparison because the bandwidth is simply not there to support that kind of storage.

You may have incredibly cheap hard drives, but thanks to extremely limited broadband infrastructures, you have an annoying bottleneck. I would say good luck downloading 1080p content with DTS-HD MA 7.1 Lossless audio, with which is not even commercially available yet, for very obvious limiting bandwidth issues. Movie studios and consumers will continue to have a field day with the joys of which blu-ray has to offer.

Data shows that blu-ray sales continue to rake in more and more than each previous year. Adoption has already been studied to be faster than DVD, so its completely contradictory to think that physical media is coming to an end any time soon when sales are in fact, going up.

Let's hope Apple is going to close the gap a bit in 2010, especially on the lower priced Mac Pros.

With all those high end gamers out there Apple should really try to work up more sales for its workstations.

This includes more attractive pricing and weeding out half-ass machines like the 2009 lame duck Quad.

I do find more and more queries in this forum concerning gaming with the Mac Pro. As I see Apple's Mac market share to continue to grow, this has to bring gamers along too.

It would be interesting to see Apple open up the Mac Pro line to a gamer market and it might work if they marketed a cheaper base line model, without inventing a new mid-level tower, headless Mac. But like you mentioned, these are workstation machines and I don't think we'll ever see a sub $2000 Mac Pro if Apple continues to invest in workstation class CPUs.

[Nostromo]

I do find more and more queries in this forum concerning gaming with the Mac Pro. As I see Apple's Mac market share to continue to grow, this has to bring gamers along too.

It would be interesting to see Apple open up the Mac Pro line to a gamer market and it might work if they marketed a cheaper base line model, without inventing a new mid-level tower, headless Mac. But like you mentioned, these are workstation machines and I don't think we'll ever see a sub $2000 Mac Pro if Apple continues to invest in workstation class CPUs.

I don't see any good in a mid-level tower. The iMacs are already mid-level, and with their included good screen as good deal, except when you do a lot of graphics and need something better as a monitor.

I'd say a good gaming PC isn't that cheap, either. So, giving us a good Mac Pro for 2500$ should work out well. Just let it be a dual processor Mac. No cheesy wanna-be MacPros.

And, and this will be essential to win over additional fans: better and cheaper graphics options. It's really not acceptable why a Mac user should pay double for the same GPU than what a PC owner pays.

Apple has tremendous leverage. They should take nVidia and ATI in a headlock to get better options.

[TheStrudel]

Apple has tremendous leverage. They should take nVidia and ATI in a headlock to get better options.

This, only replace "headlock" with "strategic partnership," or "offer incentives".

Given that Nvidia made a bundle off of the 9400m's mandatory inclusion in every single  portable made recently, it's not implausible.

But I think it requires senior management (like, say, Steve) to care more about graphics cards.

I think we all know the realistic likelihood of that.

With regards to Blu-ray, I and others have posted at length as to why it's useful for more than just playback (archiving, sending media to somebody because mailing a hard drive doesn't work well for everybody). The most legitimate objection to it is the content protection, but  handled that in the past with DVD player - boxed away from everything else. I'm reasonably sure they could either add the blu-ray functionality to the DVD player app or write a new app that locks other access away, for the required legal reasons.

The DRM has been cracked a long time ago, and *historically are only really interested in DRM compliance to the legal requirements of partners.

It's feasible. As for things I'd like to see, they can be pretty much summed up like this: More of what's already good, newer iterations of existing tech, to wit:

USB 3, SATA 6, Firewire 3200, more PCIe slots, additional bays for HDDs (2.5" bays for SSD use would be sufficient).

eSATA would be a nice addition at this point, given how it would free up a PCIe slot for some people.

[nanofrog]

I would love to figure out a clean way of getting Blu Ray Playback to work in Windows with my 30" ACD which is not HDCP compliant.. The only solution I have found is AnyDVD which seems to be hit and miss for some people...
Unfortunately, the 30"ACD isn't HDCP compliant, and I'm not sure about your graphics card, but will presume it's new enough to be capable for the moment.

That means either a new monitor is needed, or to try to stick with a software solution.

Sorry, I am not disputing the quality of these machines. I was simply echoing what I thought was the general consensus here on the forums since benchmarks have already proven that the 08 models seem to be the better value for the money. And Nano explained it better.
The '08's are currently the best value of all the MP's made so far. Granted, the 2010 models may be faster (depending on the exact clocks offered), but the prices will be higher than the '09's, again eating away at the overall value (performance/cost). :(

But talking about about which location you find it personally preferable to view a movie says nothing about the future of physical media. :confused: Besides simply viewing blu-ray movies for consumers, there are already those here that rip blu-ray content and what about blu-ray authoring for professionals?

I do not see the days of physical media numbered, no matter how much argument is thrown about at how much cheaper hard drives are in comparison because the bandwidth is simply not there to support that kind of storage.
Physical media has another advantage. No downloads required, even if there's sufficient bandwidth, as data caps are gaining popularity and being implemented by ISP's (definitely the Accounting Depts. on up). So that amount of data per movie could get prohibitively expensive (i.e. 25GB for a single layer BD). :(

Purchased BD's can be loaded onto HDD's for an HTPC to allow for whole house availability without the need for dedicated players for each set (then archive physical BD's for safe keeping). And as it's been mentioned, shipping optical media is much less expensive than an HDD.

But like you mentioned, these are workstation machines and I don't think we'll ever see a sub $2000 Mac Pro if Apple continues to invest in workstation class CPUs.
They won't be able to remain with Xeons for too much longer, as Intel's going with far more cores than is needed by a workstation (i.e. developed for clusters). So if the MP remains, it will eventually have to shift to a high-end desktop part. Single CPU's with 8 cores isn't that far away. ;) The i7-9xx parts and the Xeon 35xx are a good example. They're Xeons with the ECC functions disabled.

It should also be noted that in most cases, there's no need for ECC either. All it's actually doing is raising the price.

So, giving us a good Mac Pro for 2500$ should work out well. Just let it be a dual processor Mac. No cheesy wanna-be MacPros.
DP workstations are going to disappear, given the state of software. We're on the verge of 6 core chips, with 8 to follow in the not too distant future. Since little software is capable of using that many cores, it's not worth having more. And the cost of a 16 core system will be more than many can handle. Even the enterprise world would take a closer look at what they're using.

If software manages to catch up (and it's not been placed on clusters that are a pay-per-use system), the die shrinks will allow for more cores, and make it into the desktop parts anyway.

Intel's current direction lends me to think we'll will have desktops on one end of the spectrum, and clusters on the other, with little in-between.

With regards to Blu-ray, I and others have posted at length as to why it's useful for more than just playback (archiving, sending media to somebody because mailing a hard drive doesn't work well for everybody). The most legitimate objection to it is the content protection, but  handled that in the past with DVD player - boxed away from everything else. I'm reasonably sure they could either add the blu-ray functionality to the DVD player app or write a new app that locks other access away, for the required legal reasons.

The DRM has been cracked a long time ago, and *historically are only really interested in DRM compliance to the legal requirements of partners.
It's doable IMO. And not actually that much effort.

[nullx86]

An Extra PCI-e x16 slot
6 Ram Slots Per Processor
SD Card Slot in front Bezel (integrated along with Power Button, USB/FW and Audio, etc)
Possible Bluray Drive
LightPeak (if released by that time)

[Wild-Bill]

I would like to see the ATI Radeon 5870.

Not graphics card options that are two or more generations old already. :rolleyes:

[macuserx86]

I would like to see the ATI Radeon 5870.

Not graphics card options that are two or more generations old already. :rolleyes:

Mainly this. The only thing that still sucks monkey phallus about owning a Mac is the lack of current gen graphics hardware. We have the great processors, we have the great software, GIVE US THE INSANELY GREAT GRAPHICS HARDWARE!

[Icaras]

Physical media has another advantage. No downloads required, even if there's sufficient bandwidth, as data caps are gaining popularity and being implemented by ISP's (definitely the Accounting Depts. on up). So that amount of data per movie could get prohibitively expensive (i.e. 25GB for a single layer BD). :(

Purchased BD's can be loaded onto HDD's for an HTPC to allow for whole house availability without the need for dedicated players for each set (then archive physical BD's for safe keeping). And as it's been mentioned, shipping optical media is much less expensive than an HDD.

Yes, other good points for sure. I forgot about rising data caps. Sorry if this is getting slightly off topic, but going back to internet speeds, if I may, I just came across a new interesting CNET article ranking the fastest internet countries in the world, referenced by 9to5mac.com:

http://www.9to5mac.com/us-internet-speed-67544567

America is ranked #18 and actually decreased in internet speed in 2009. :eek:

I'm well aware that other countries totally outpace the US, but its a bit appalling to find out through the actual data that its far worse than anticipated. Just thought I'd share.

[gugucom]

I couldn't agree more. It really amazes me how people instantly accept everything Apple pushes their way, even if it only serves Apple's interests.

gugucom,

How do you get around the whole HDCP compliant issue in Windows, or is it not an issue with your hardware / display?

I have a 46" LED backlight Samsung TV which I run from MDP and VGA adapter. The quality is superb and the native resolution is exactly 1920x1080. Because it is VGA I have no problems with HDCP at all. I can run the HDTV HD with my GT120 on a very low energy budget. If I need graphic power I can fit a 4870 which I do not need very often.

[jetjaguar]

would be nice of them to release a video card option that had more than one mdp for putting running dual monitors

[wei803]

I'm hoping they come soon. I'm letting go my 2006 MacPro in this few days. I wish Apple will offer 2 full-size DVI port on top of their Mini-Display Port. I find it too much for a desktop to utilize a "mini" port where space is not an issue. And we have to spend extra to get the adapter just to do dual screen on the stock spec.

And please put the Airport card as default like 5 years ago?

[Dr.Pants]

I'd like to see better fibre optic and RAID options from apple.

Fixed :D

[freiheit]

I will continue to hope for a sub-$2000 headless Mac (tower) until Apple releases one. Being in a smaller case than the Mac Pro would also be nice and I would accept just one optical drive instead of current two and 3 PCIe slots instead of 4 in order to get the smaller case. iMac just isn't expandable enough but Mac Pro is a bit overkill for my needs.

Since a sub-$2000 headless Mac tower is unlikely to ever be released (or if it is, it will likely be crippled in other ways like the single processor G5 tower was) my wishes for a 2010 Mac Pro include a single quad core i7 processor, at least mid-level graphics (no more of this GF7300 and GF120GT garbage in a "Pro" workstation) and eSATA or the new USB 3.0. Would also like to see fan assemblies which are easy to remove and clean, like in my old G5 Power Mac.

And for the love of Pete, is it so difficult to give me direct access to the hardware eject button on the optical drive? I broke the tray mechanism on mine when an audio CD I inserted couldn't be read and continually spun up/down in an endless loop. Apple's purely-software eject system couldn't get the drive's attention long enough to open the drawer and I had to blindly poke with a straightened paperclip to find that little emergency eject hole through the cheese grater grill of my case. It was not pretty.

[nanofrog]

http://www.9to5mac.com/us-internet-speed-67544567

America is ranked #18 and actually decreased in internet speed in 2009. :eek:

I'm well aware that other countries totally outpace the US, but its a bit appalling to find out through the actual data that its far worse than anticipated. Just thought I'd share.
And people think DL movie content is going to proliferate and suplant physical media the US anytime soon? :eek: Yeah right. :rolleyes: ;) :p

The existing infrastructure is just too far behind, and needs a massive infusion of funds for upgrades (instead, it's sat essentially stagnant for years, even when they could have been laying more fibre to the exchange for future equipment).

There's quite a few areas that aren't even fibre from the exchange to the neighborhood yet (FTTC), which is needed. FiOS and UVerse are just too under-developed (coverage area) to improve matters for most, even if they're willing to pay for it. You simply can't get what isn't there.

[TheStrudel]

More on that subject: FiOS is crap. It may be better than nearly every other ISP, but that doesn't keep it from being crummy. They refuse to support the use of a router that isn't the crappy one bundled with their service, and you have to pay a ton for 15 mbps down/5 mbps up.

And the service/support is lousy for $130 month. Why is it that paying $15/month for an MMORPG will net you better service?

I want that $15/month 100mbps down/100mbps up service offered in Hong Kong. Heck, I'd settle for a quarter of that at twice the price and love it. Our network telco systems in the US are broken, and they only even try to compete when towns start laying in municipal fiber :mad:.

Yes, I'm a little bitter. Sorry for the off-topic discourse, but put bluntly:

Network infrastructure in this country is lousy. We'll be on physical media long after everybody else is.

[rikoshay]

And for the love of Pete, is it so difficult to give me direct access to the hardware eject button on the optical drive?

I couldn't agree more. I've had my Mac Pro for 2 years now, and have lost count on the amount of times I've cursed my beast, and Apple, for this oversight. That, and for dated, under-powered graphic options.

[Icaras]

nd please put the Airport card as default like 5 years ago?

YESSS..please do. It absolutely perplexes me to no end as to why it was removed in the first place. Surely at a starting price point of $2499 what more is a $45 CTO option? :( What really gets me is that airport wireless is standard across Apple's entire computer lineup......except for its most premium grade computer. That just sounds wrong to me.

I feel like its one of those things that forces you to buy a Mac Pro directly from Apple and not other resellers. And to think how much cheaper I could get a Mac Pro elsewhere that doesn't include tax and shipping :(

[J the Ninja]

YESSS..please do. It absolutely perplexes me to no end as to why it was removed in the first place. Surely at a starting price point of $2499 what more is a $45 CTO option? :( What really gets me is that airport wireless is standard across Apple's entire computer lineup......except for its most premium grade computer. That just sounds wrong to me.

I feel like its one of those things that forces you to buy a Mac Pro directly from Apple and not other resellers. And to think how much cheaper I could get a Mac Pro elsewhere that doesn't include tax and shipping :(

It's not included for the same reason the stock graphics card is low end: Some people don't need it and don't want to pay for it. The MP is basically the only Mac meant to sit under a desk. The laptops are...well, laptops, and iMac and Mini are meant to sit on your desk and look pretty. MP? Nope. Just hardwire it. It blocks the view of the cable with its enormous* bulk anyway. MP owners are also much more likely to be pushing big files around. (Qmaster/XGrid on Wifi? HELL NO).

Same thing with the graphics. You folks seem to forget these are also used for audio and scientific work, and those tasks really only need enough graphics dakka to drive a monitor. So that's as much as Apple gives you for the stock option. Those who need more, can get more.

The BTO cards are always decent at the time of release. The 1900, 8800GT, and 4870 were all GREAT cards when their respective MPs were released. They just aren't anymore, and Apple never bothers to update things until they refresh the whole line. Which is done when there are new CPUs. So when a graphics advance comes out in between Intel's DP server updates, MP owners just get it up the rear. I have no doubts you will be able to get that 6-mini DP 5870 on your 2010 MP. For $499 extra...(hey, don't blame Apple. The card actually retails for about that much)


*Frankly, the MP is not that big for a workstation/tower-of-power. The handles make it look bigger than it is. It's just barely big enough to be called a "full tower"

[nanofrog]

More on that subject: FiOS is crap. It may be better than nearly every other ISP, but that doesn't keep it from being crummy. They refuse to support the use of a router that isn't the crappy one bundled with their service, and you have to pay a ton for 15 mbps down/5 mbps up.

And the service/support is lousy for $130 month. Why is it that paying $15/month for an MMORPG will net you better service?

I want that $15/month 100mbps down/100mbps up service offered in Hong Kong. Heck, I'd settle for a quarter of that at twice the price and love it. Our network telco systems in the US are broken, and they only even try to compete when towns start laying in municipal fiber :mad:.

Yes, I'm a little bitter. Sorry for the off-topic discourse, but put bluntly:

Network infrastructure in this country is lousy. We'll be on physical media long after everybody else is.
I only listed FiOS and UVerse due to the advertised bandwidth, as I'm not willing to pay what they want for it. Combine that with reports of inconsistent service,... I won't touch it.

As for the state of the infrastructure, that's corporate greed for you. :mad: They don't want to update, just keep milking the existing equipment for every cent they can. So few new lines are being run, and there's equipment older than some of the members here on MR still in service. :eek: Seriously.

[Dr.Pants]

As for the state of the infrastructure, that's corporate greed for you. :mad: They don't want to update, just keep milking the existing equipment for every cent they can. So few new lines are being run, and there's equipment older than some of the members here on MR still in service. :eek: Seriously.

Well, what service offered in the US would you perfer, Nano? Just curious.

As for FIOS and corporate greed, there's a line that runs along the State Route a stone's throw away from my residence, and nobody along said State Route is offered service. The only service besides satellite that I can get at my residence is Broadstripe.

unrelated note; In a twist of irony, I fought *very* hard at my residence for an ISP change away from Hughesnet. Now I'm using Wildblue, the other major satellite provider. Upside, I can finally download a Linux ISO without running into a limit. Downside, ping times are higher. Needless to say, I'm not amused.

Next year (even though I will have moved) AT&T will put in cellular internet. For all intents and purposes, while providing a broadband option over air seems cool and all, nothing will replace wire. After I move I'm getting internet over a wire, no ifs, ands, or buts.

This is my perspective on "broadband" in Rural America. Sickening.

[TheStrudel]

I bet Nanofrog would prefer municipal fiber, such as they offer in Lafayette, Louisiana. $30/month for symmetrical 10 mbps. Or $58/month for symmetrical 50 mbps. They rolled it out and then the local cable companies started offering better services.

Only the threat of competition from the government moves these cheap jerks. Few other industries can get away with this crap.

[Techhie]

It's not included for the same reason the stock graphics card is low end: Some people don't need it and don't want to pay for it.

I would venture to say that a large portion of Mac Pro users wishes Apple would have put a substantial GPU in their workstation, especially considering the fact that Apple is charging out the wazoo for upgrades proves that they aren't including it just to make a ridiculous profit on people forced to upgrade

[Techhie]

Only the threat of competition from the government moves these cheap jerks. Few other industries can get away with this crap.

But...But....running a cellular network is reeealy expensive/hard and that makes it ok for us to say that texting is stressful enough on the network to justify higher charges than data plans!

[Icaras]

It's not included for the same reason the stock graphics card is low end: Some people don't need it and don't want to pay for it.(Qmaster/XGrid on Wifi? HELL NO).

But...but....its only $45.....Compromises in graphics hardware I can understand, but I mean, really? With as small of a user base the Mac Pro has today, does Apple have to be that strict?

Same thing with the graphics. You folks seem to forget these are also used for audio and scientific work, and those tasks really only need enough graphics dakka to drive a monitor. So that's as much as Apple gives you for the stock option. Those who need more, can get more.

The BTO cards are always decent at the time of release. The 1900, 8800GT, and 4870 were all GREAT cards when their respective MPs were released. They just aren't anymore, and Apple never bothers to update things until they refresh the whole line. Which is done when there are new CPUs. So when a graphics advance comes out in between Intel's DP server updates, MP owners just get it up the rear. I have no doubts you will be able to get that 6-mini DP 5870 on your 2010 MP. For $499 extra...(hey, don't blame Apple. The card actually retails for about that much)

I agree. I do audio work and am not as sensitive as others when it comes to Apple's standard graphic options. However I'm a pretty hardcore gamer as well, so aftermarket graphics options are fine for me. But more options at the CTO process would only benefit everyone and I don't think anyone should be against that.

Next year (even though I will have moved) AT&T will put in cellular internet. For all intents and purposes, while providing a broadband option over air seems cool and all, nothing will replace wire. After I move I'm getting internet over a wire, no ifs, ands, or buts.

This is my perspective on "broadband" in Rural America. Sickening.

Ha, cellular internet. :rolleyes: Another compromise that won't at all give leverage to iTunes HD movie downloads. I agree though, its a cool idea and probably a step in the right direction for future broadband for general consumers.

[Umbongo]

But...but....its only $45.....Compromises in graphics hardware I can understand, but I mean, really? With as small of a user base the Mac Pro has today, does Apple have to be that strict?

While it may not have relevance to why Apple do this; some customers can't buy computers with wireless hardware built in due security reasons. Perhaps the more likely reason is that they know that something like that isn't going to stop someone buying a Mac Pro so they have no reason to include it.

[nanofrog]

Well, what service offered in the US would you perfer, Nano? Just curious.
DSL via FTTH.

The best there is here ATM, is FTTC, but since the entire system isn't yet, they won't upgrade the equipment to offer faster service. Not until the copper lines have been replaced.

It makes sense, as it prevents the need to run dual systems in the exchange. But since such cable replacement has been so slow due to very little funding set aside for it (this is classed at the lowest priority = non existant ATM), it's going to be some time before additional bandwidth service is available. They keep pushing the date back everywhere, and it was supposed to be completed years ago. Here that means "indefinite hold".

Given the cost of laying fibre (or copper for that matter), it would make more sense IMO to go ahead and lay enough for an FTTH system. It's cheaper in the long run, as the cables that run parallel can be set at the same time to reduce labor & equipment costs. That way upgrades would only need to be made to the exchange equipment for future increases in bandwidth.

As for FIOS and corporate greed, there's a line that runs along the State Route a stone's throw away from my residence, and nobody along said State Route is offered service. The only service besides satellite that I can get at my residence is Broadstripe.
Unfortunately, this isn't uncommon. :( It tends to be a large pipe from one area to another, but it's too saturated to allow for additional connections to serve other users along it's route.

unrelated note; In a twist of irony, I fought *very* hard at my residence for an ISP change away from Hughesnet. Now I'm using Wildblue, the other major satellite provider. Upside, I can finally download a Linux ISO without running into a limit. Downside, ping times are higher. Needless to say, I'm not amused.

Next year (even though I will have moved) AT&T will put in cellular internet. For all intents and purposes, while providing a broadband option over air seems cool and all, nothing will replace wire. After I move I'm getting internet over a wire, no ifs, ands, or buts.

This is my perspective on "broadband" in Rural America. Sickening.
I've been that rural in the past (PA). Internet was dial-up or satellite. No DSL or Cable access whatsoever. So you can opt for molases covered granny in sub zero temps or an expensive and rather flakey faster service (i.e. fast as heck at late night, but during peak hours, not so wonderful, and then there's bad whether to cause dropouts).

I bet Nanofrog would prefer municipal fiber, such as they offer in Lafayette, Louisiana. $30/month for symmetrical 10 mbps. Or $58/month for symmetrical 50 mbps. They rolled it out and then the local cable companies started offering better services.

Only the threat of competition from the government moves these cheap jerks. Few other industries can get away with this crap.
Yep. I actually live in NE Louisiana. It's sort of dismal. I'm too far away from the exchange to get the faster plans, which is only 6Mb/s max anyway. :( Here, I have to consider myself lucky just to have access to DSL.

And you've hit the nerve directly. Without competition, there's zero motivation to invest one cent to improve service. They're actually hoping the government will pay for the lines that are necessary (or at least part of it), so they don't have to.

While it may not have relevance to why Apple do this; some customers can't buy computers with wireless hardware built in due security reasons. Perhaps the more likely reason is that they know that something like that isn't going to stop someone buying a Mac Pro so they have no reason to include it.
It's also cheaper to leave such things out = more $ to the bottom line.

[dcpmark]

More on that subject: FiOS is crap. It may be better than nearly every other ISP, but that doesn't keep it from being crummy. They refuse to support the use of a router that isn't the crappy one bundled with their service, and you have to pay a ton for 15 mbps down/5 mbps up.

And the service/support is lousy for $130 month. Why is it that paying $15/month for an MMORPG will net you better service?


20/5 is $44.95 per month (less if you bundle it with other Verizon services).....where are you getting $130 a month?

I'm not sure about your router complaint, either. I have my FIOS router acting as a passthrough, with my dual band "N" Airport Extreme doing all the actual work, so you can use FIOS with 3rd party routers. IMHO it's crazy to think that Verizon should have to SUPPORT the use of dozens of 3rd-party routers, though. Doesn't mean you can't use one.

Anyway, count me in as happy FIOS user, obviously.......

[TheStrudel]

20/5 is $44.95 per month (less if you bundle it with other Verizon services).....where are you getting $130 a month?

I'm not sure about your router complaint, either. I have my FIOS router acting as a passthrough, with my dual band "N" Airport Extreme doing all the actual work, so you can use FIOS with 3rd party routers. IMHO it's crazy to think that Verizon should have to SUPPORT the use of dozens of 3rd-party routers, though. Doesn't mean you can't use one.

Anyway, count me in as happy FIOS user, obviously.......

It's $130 a month because it's got TV and phone service bundled with it. Not my choice, but I don't live alone here.

I'm saying the level of service they offer for that price is horribly bad. It'd be bad at $45/month. The router complaint is legitimate because they refuse to allow the possibility. Yes, I know you can, but you know, Airport routers are far easier to set up than other routers, and not everybody wanted to pay up for the privilege. But even on passthrough that Actiontec piece of crap is causing problems. I'm not saying that Verizon should support routers explicitly: just that they shouldn't disallow your use of a router and basically not release any information on how to do it.

More to the point, I'm questioning why on earth they would hobble a service with terrible hardware. Why would you advertise a high bandwidth connection, then constrain everybody's access to it through garbage hardware?

Because you don't care about the consumer. We have a lot of complaints on the Mac Pro forums here, but frankly,  doesn't know how to hate the consumer the way cable and telco companies do. Witness the loss of food network on Cablevision.

Now that this digression is in full swing, let me say that I'm completely okay with  making things configure-to-order, like Airport cards. CTO is a good compromise between people who want extras and people who don't want to pay more for it. Then some people can get their Blu-ray burner from  at the inflated price, while the rest of us can install our own far cheaper. All we want is the full software support package.

To summarize: We want some basic logic board capabilities expanded befitting what we expect from this workstation, which I listed previously, and the rest can be CTO options.

[JesterJJZ]

An Extra PCI-e x16 slot
6 Ram Slots Per Processor
SD Card Slot in front Bezel (integrated along with Power Button, USB/FW and Audio, etc)
Possible Bluray Drive
LightPeak (if released by that time)

Agreed, but we probably won't get lightpeak, usb3 if anything like that.