A Society of All Smart People

[upinflames900]

What would happen to society if we could genetically engineer each person to have the "perfect" traits or at least to be all equally intelligent. What effect would this have on society? If everyone was equally intelligent, would people be upset by having to do jobs that they considered to be "below" them even though not doing them would result in serious trouble for society (i.e. manual labor tasks). Do you think that there needs to be a spectrum of different intellects and/or other traits in humans?

In reference to this, do you believe this quote from A Brave New World is true:
"It's an absurdity. An Alpha-decanted, Alpha-conditioned man would go mad if he had to do Epsilon Semi-Moron work – go mad, or start smashing things up. Alphas can be completely socialized – but only on condition that you make them do Alpha work. Only an Epsilon can be expected to make Epsilon sacrifices, for the good reason that for him they aren't sacrifices; they're the line of least resistance. His conditioning has laid down rails along which he's got to run. He can't help himself; he's foredoomed."
(By alphas they are referring to the smartest caste of people, and epsilon is referring to the dumbest caste)

My main question is what effects genetic engineering would have on society. Thanks in advance.

[NT1440]

It'd be a complete disaster. Diversity is what makes the world work, nature shows us this.

[eawmp1]

My main question is what effects genetic engineering would have on society. Thanks in advance.

A bit philosophical for MacRumors.
The potential effects are myriad (as are the possible applications of genetic engineering). That having been said, genetic diversity typically lends robustness to a species. The less genetically diverse, the more susceptible to disease and extinction a species is.

[rdowns]

Is this your homework?

[upinflames900]

Is this your homework?

No it is not, it is simply a question that I was recently talking about with a friend. It has nothing to do with homework, essays, or any school or college related project. It is simply a question that I was interested in hearing opinions about.

[Zombie Acorn]

Manual labor jobs and other "crap" jobs would simply be paid more until the dislike of doing the jobs was equivalent to the pay compensated for doing them, many people enter fields that they are not educated specifically in to make more money.

[upinflames900]

Manual labor jobs and other "crap" jobs would simply be paid more until the dislike of doing the jobs was equivalent to the pay compensated for doing them, many people enter fields that they are not educated specifically in to make more money.

Then the pay for jobs that were "not crap" would have to also be lowered correct?

[Peace]

So what happens to all the dumb people ?

[.Andy]

Join up as a demi and see for yourself :).

[upinflames900]

So what happens to all the dumb people ?

Suppose that there aren't any dumb people... like society just all dies and is replaced by a new society of all smart people.

[mcrain]

If there weren't any dumb people, how would I get laid?

(I'm married now, so I'm only joking, but how would most guys get any if there weren't any dumb people?)

[Zombie Acorn]

Then the pay for jobs that were "not crap" would have to also be lowered correct?

They would be compensated on productivity or money generation of the particular job (usually like it is today). The only difference I see is that we would have to compensate people more to do crap work whereas today we can get people to do the jobs because they do not have qualifications to do much better.

[Peace]

Suppose that there aren't any dumb people... like society just all dies and is replaced by a new society of all smart people.


If everybody dies who's left to do the replacing ?

[upinflames900]

If everybody dies who's left to do the replacing ?

Just pretend that it works somehow that the whole world is just people who are equally intelligent.

[Peace]

Just pretend that it works somehow that the whole world is just people who are equally intelligent.

No offense meant but I'm thinking you won't be around to help.:p

[j26]

Just to get all philosophical back at you, what is intelligence?

There are theories that there are multiple forms of intelligence, such as academic, social, manual empathic etc.

Are you limiting it to academic ability, and if so, what form? I, for example am pretty numerate, and logical and have good three dimensional spatial awareness but am useless with languages, and can't remember my friends childrens names. Does that fall within the definition.

[upinflames900]

No offense meant but I'm thinking you won't be around to help.:p

I know, it isn't meant to be practical, just a thought experiment so to speak.

[dukebound85]

It would sure be lonely without you guys around anymore:p

[upinflames900]

Just to get all philosophical back at you, what is intelligence?

There are theories that there are multiple forms of intelligence, such as academic, social, manual empathic etc.

Are you limiting it to academic ability, and if so, what form? I, for example am pretty numerate, and logical and have good three dimensional spatial awareness but am useless with languages, and can't remember my friends childrens names. Does that fall within the definition.

Good point... I guess consider each of the forms to be equally high? I know I am over simplifying and probably not paying enough regard to this point. But I really have no way of explaining that. So I guess you really can't have just equal intelligence.

[Peace]

Not to distract the discussion but Hitler tried this.;)

[xlii]

Before I'd even read the first post... I knew he had read Brave New World. The real horror in that book wasn't the baby making assembly line. It was that every baby could be an Alpha Prime but they neglected some of the babies to make them B, C D, E... etc.

There are many different kinds of smart. Some learn quickly. Some can make almost anything with their hands. Some can easily create music. The list goes on.

The danger in programing everyone perfect is it would remove the mutations. We are constantly evolving and mutation is one way we do it. Some are dead ends, but some give those with the mutation an advantage and that gets passed on to their children. So mutations are a way to spread out the ability of the human race to survive change. Kind of like having 100 different kinds of tomatoes. If one kind gets killed by the wilt another will survive the wilt. When you have only one kind of tomato... there is danger that something could come and kill off that tomato which would result in there being no tomatoes.

[leekohler]

It'd be a complete disaster. Diversity is what makes the world work, nature shows us this.

I'd still like to give it a try.

[upinflames900]

Not to distract the discussion but Hitler tried this.;)

Good point... which in and of it self is another negation for this I would think.

Before I'd even read the first post... I knew he had read Brave New World. The real horror in that book wasn't the baby making assembly line. It was that every baby could be an Alpha Prime but they neglected some of the babies to make them B, C D, E... etc.


Yea you got me on that... that book really does make you wonder what would happen in a genetically created society. Plus it becomes closer to being a possibility every day.

[eawmp1]

Yea you got me on that... that book really does make you wonder what would happen in a genetically created society. Plus it becomes closer to being a possibility every day.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2339/2260894625_ea1feecb2a.jpg

[j26]

The danger in programing everyone perfect is it would remove the mutations. We are constantly evolving and mutation is one way we do it. Some are dead ends, but some give those with the mutation an advantage and that gets passed on to their children. So mutations are a way to spread out the ability of the human race to survive change. Kind of like having 100 different kinds of tomatoes. If one kind gets killed by the wilt another will survive the wilt. When you have only one kind of tomato... there is danger that something could come and kill off that tomato which would result in there being no tomatoes.

To take another slant on that, even if the society postulated were to be created, assuming is survived the "wilt" events, mutations would undermine it in a few generations, and destroy it in several, and in a few hundred years you'd be back to the same situation as now.

Nature does not like monotony.


Edit: the part of Brave New World that I found far scarier than Orwells 1984 was the methods of social control used. There are so many parallels with the modern world that it's hard not to feel a little uncomfortable.

[upinflames900]

Edit: the part of Brave New World that I found far scarier than Orwells 1984 was the methods of social control used. There are so many parallels with the modern world that it's hard not to feel a little uncomfortable.

I have to agree with you on this. Both of those books make you really think about the corollaries to modern society. I worry about companies genetically profiling people before hiring them, something that is not too far off.

[mcrain]

I love how people respond to this thread using words like corrolaries... :o

(edit) That being said, genetic profiling is a truly scary proposition... as is not getting any!

[barkomatic]

I have to agree with you on this. Both of those books make you really think about the corollaries to modern society. I worry about companies genetically profiling people before hiring them, something that is not too far off.

The movie, "Gattaca" actually deals with this very same subject matter. It came out in 1997 and the OP should watch it.

Sadly, I think its a possibility that people might be genetically profiled for some positions someday. It will be hard for private insurance companies to resist doing this to deny someone coverage.

[rdowns]

Then who would start stupid threads?

[dukebound85]

Then who would start stupid threads?

well there will always be stupid in a relative sense lol

[xlii]

Time to watch that movie Idiocracy... been putting it off.

[Rt&Dzine]

Then who would start stupid threads?

Maybe all threads would become stupid threads. "All equally intelligent" could mean everyone will be stupider than most of the current peeps in PRSI.

[upinflames900]

Then who would start stupid threads?

If you consider it stupid, you don't have to participate... another point, what if society was all stupid rather than all smart? What would be the consequences of that?

[Rt&Dzine]

If you consider it stupid, you don't have to participate... another point, what if society was all stupid rather than all smart? What would be the consequences of that?

It didn't occur to me that he meant that this thread was stupid. I think it's interesting.

[MacNut]

Being smart does not always equal common sense. I think that is more important then being a brain. You could be the smartest person in the world but if you don't know how to function doing day to day tasks what good is it.

I know people who are book smart but have no rational thought. They don't know how to function unless they see it in a book. Ask them to change a tire or fix a toilet and they give you a puzzled look.

[upinflames900]

Being smart does not always equal common sense. I think that is more important then being a brain. You could be the smartest person in the world but if you don't know how to function doing day to day tasks what good is it.

I know people who are book smart but have no rational thought. They don't know how to function unless they see it in a book. Ask them to change a tire or fix a toilet and they give you a puzzled look.

Is that nature's way of saying, you can't all have "equal intelligence" because each person will always have something that he or she is particularly good at and something that they suck at?

[MacNut]

Is that nature's way of saying, you can't all have "equal intelligence" because each person will always have something that he or she is particularly good at and something that they suck at?How do you determine what smart is, I might be great at music but not a rocket scientist. People that are overly smart just focus on one thing and do it well, but ask them to do something else and they have no idea.

Is being smart the ability to do many things good or one thing great?

[upinflames900]

How do you determine what smart is, I might be great at music but not a rocket scientist. People that are overly smart just focus on one thing and do it well, but ask them to do something else and they have no idea.

Is being smart the ability to do many things good or one thing great?

Your absolutely right, which is why I personally feel that nature doesn't really allow for this scenario. But if everyone had the same intelligence such that they were either all "street smart" or "brainy" or whatever category in such a way that everyone was the same what would be the result? The reality of intelligence is very much as you expressed it, and while a person may be great at brain surgery, tell him to fix the kitchen sink and he might have a heart attack. This is why tend to think that if everyone was the same intelligence, then it would either create a world of people who could fix sinks but not do brain surgery or a world that could do brain surgery, but not fix sinks.

[MacNut]

If everyone was the same there would be a high murder rate. No parody, everyone would get pissed off because there was no difference of opinion. You need to have a variety of people and skills.

[chstr]

Suppose that there aren't any dumb people... like society just all dies and is replaced by a new society of all smart people.

this is my wish every time I walk into walmart. particularly when I walk by the lady contemplating which multi-colored stretchy pants to buy. I'm not kidding

If you consider it stupid, you don't have to participate... another point, what if society was all stupid rather than all smart? What would be the consequences of that?

we already know... walmart

[upinflames900]

If everyone was the same there would be a high murder rate. No parody, everyone would get pissed off because there was no difference of opinion. You need to have a variety of people and skills.

Which is why I just don't think it would work to have that kind of society. There has to be diversity even if that means people have different IQs or whatever other ways they measure intelligence.


we already know... walmart

Everyone would like:
http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/
:D

[IBradMac]

Then who would start stupid threads?

Intelligent people, of course.

[chstr]

If everyone was the same there would be a high murder rate. No parody, everyone would get pissed off because there was no difference of opinion. You need to have a variety of people and skills.
no... there would be a high suicide rate (sweden) but better than murder if you ask me

[yojitani]

There isn't an option for 'What are smart people?'

[Ttownbeast]

Just to get all philosophical back at you, what is intelligence?

There are theories that there are multiple forms of intelligence, such as academic, social, manual empathic etc.

Are you limiting it to academic ability, and if so, what form? I, for example am pretty numerate, and logical and have good three dimensional spatial awareness but am useless with languages, and can't remember my friends childrens names. Does that fall within the definition.

You speak of the work of Gardener, don't you?

[hulugu]

Join up as a demi and see for yourself :).

Good point.

*Votes for "No, the society would perish"*

[CorvusCamenarum]

How are we defining smart? One SD above the current average? Two? Regardless of where we set the bar for what constitutes "smart" and magically reset society to reflect this, half of everyone will still be below average and relegated to those same jobs and social positions that the below average people hold now. Odds are, though, that when you ask for extra onions and no lettuce on your McWhopperator, you stand a better chance of actually getting it.

[ravenvii]

... what if society was all stupid rather than all smart? What would be the consequences of that?

Idiocracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy).

This movie is supposed to be a comedy, but it horrifies me.

[ethical]

I love how people respond to this thread using words like corrolaries... :o

(edit) That being said, genetic profiling is a truly scary proposition... as is not getting any!

Havn't you heard?.... we're all smart now, we have to use big words!

[upinflames900]

How are we defining smart? One SD above the current average? Two? Regardless of where we set the bar for what constitutes "smart" and magically reset society to reflect this, half of everyone will still be below average and relegated to those same jobs and social positions that the below average people hold now. Odds are, though, that when you ask for extra onions and no lettuce on your McWhopperator, you stand a better chance of actually getting it.

What if there was not SD and everyone was the same (in some way that I cannot explain) such that they have "equal intelligence"? Or is that just completely impossible so genetic engineering would be okay as diversity would still exist?

[CorvusCamenarum]

What if there was not SD and everyone was the same (in some way that I cannot explain) such that they have "equal intelligence"? Or is that just completely impossible so genetic engineering would be okay as diversity would still exist?

If there was no such thing as a normal distribution, the world would be a fundamentally very different place.

Paraphrasing Flowers for Algernon, if you've ever read that book, intelligence is like a measuring cup. No matter how big yours is, you still have to fill it up. Differences in personality could account for who takes the time and effort to fill their cup as it were, and with what exactly.

[VenusianSky]

A society of equally intelligent people would not survive IMO. I think there would be much personal conflict, nothing would get done and there would be no order.

[skunk]

Being intelligent does not mean being unwilling to do manual labour.

[eawmp1]

Being intelligent does not mean being unwilling to do manual labour.

And conversely, performing manual labor does not indicate a lack of intelligence.

[skunk]

And conversely, performing manual labor does not indicate a lack of intelligence.Precisely. A Sufi Master may be a Master of any skill. It's not what you do, but the way that you do it.

[63dot]

My main question is what effects genetic engineering would have on society. Thanks in advance.

Simple answer.

[63dot]

Or if we want everybody to be the same, as Mr Pol Pot thought was ideal, here's another picture for pondering.

[upinflames900]

Precisely. A Sufi Master may be a Master of any skill. It's not what you do, but the way that you do it.

I agree with this, but would enough people want to do those jobs in such a society? Or you pick which jobs would be undesirable... would someone want to do them?

[Desertrat]

I go along with MacNut about common sense and practicality. I see them as being at the very least equal in importance to intelligence.

Karl Marx was very intelligent, but his ideas have led to tens of millions of deaths. We've elected many very intelligent people to public office, but look how much foolishness has been enacted into law. Similarly for Keynes, Greenspan and Obama...

Drifting a bit: It likely would be good if the average intelligence were higher, but to see a societal improvement would mean a good deal of change--which gets back to common sense and practicality. Intelligence is taken to mean a capacity for learning, but it's the use of that learning which determines how a society functions.

[stubeeef]

Forget how "smart" people are, I would trade it for how educated people are. Since the Feds started getting involved in our childrens education, we are less and less educated. Coincidence?

[Ttownbeast]

First, we kill all the lawyers.

[63dot]

First, we kill all the lawyers.

While there are many examples of bad lawyers who do more harm than good, a society needs the rule of law and thus lawyers. Just like many don't like cops and some cops deserve to get prosecuted, our society needs cops.

While society isn't perfect, anything that smacks of eugenics, if I read the first post correctly, is a little too close to Nazi Germany or a whole host of communist countries who have committed genocide. All people cannot be the same (physically or mentally) or expect to believe the same, especially in the mold of a demented, violent leader.

[Ttownbeast]

While there are many examples of bad lawyers who do more harm than good, a society needs the rule of law and thus lawyers. Just like many don't like cops and some cops deserve to get prosecuted, our society needs cops.

While society isn't perfect, anything that smacks of eugenics, if I read the first post correctly, is a little too close to Nazi Germany or a whole host of communist countries who have committed genocide. All people cannot be the same (physically or mentally) or expect to believe the same, especially in the mold of a demented, violent leader.

Yes we need laws.....laws that can be interpreted and used by the people in a rational manner, lawyers are not a necessity they translate a dead language and tell everyone else what it means for a fee.

[Josias]

This question can't be answered directly. You're asking whether a society of people bred to be equally intelligent (I'm not sure how you define intelligence though).

This brings up the old question of heritage vs environment, and how the different environments would change people that were similar from birth. I personally think that no matter how similar you could engineer all humans, and how similar you could construct the course of their lives, they would always develop differently. Life is very unpredictable.

I am (no offense to you) personally repulsed by the idea, and believe it would annihilate the meaning of living. In case you're asking whether a classless society could exist, where everyone was exactly equal, it has been attempted several times on different scales, and though I don't mean to bash anyones opinions, I believe that history is with me when I say that communism can not function in real life.

[Badandy]

Yes we need laws.....laws that can be interpreted and used by the people in a rational manner, lawyers are not a necessity they translate a dead language and tell everyone else what it means for a fee.

Nonsense. Lawyers, despite their reputation, are extremely important to society.

[63dot]

Yes we need laws.....laws that can be interpreted and used by the people in a rational manner, lawyers are not a necessity they translate a dead language and tell everyone else what it means for a fee.

Are you referring to latin? It is very rarely used in law in the United States. Look at any casebook and you will find the English in it will confound you, if not the decisions or judicial dissents. Go to your local courthouse law library and browse around some. If you are not near a courthouse, go to a college bookstore who has a law school and read some of the writings. American Casebook series is a good start. French is used more as words such as trial, lawyer, court, judge, attorney, jury, plaintiff, and defendant are all French.