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MacRumors
Jan 13, 2010, 12:43 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2010/01/13/cost-of-app-store-piracy-pegged-at-450-million/)

24/7 Wall St. reports (http://247wallst.com/2010/01/13/apple-app-store-has-lost-450-million-to-piracy/) that Apple and App Store developers appear to have lost approximately $450 million to piracy since the marketplace for iPhone and iPod touch application opened in July 2008. The rough number is based on several estimates regarding the proportion of downloads that are paid applications, the piracy rate for paid applications, and the proportion of pirated app users who would have paid for the applications had pirated versions not been available.There have been over 3 billion downloads since the inception of the App Store. Assuming the proportion of those that are paid apps falls in the middle of the Bernstein estimate, 17% or 510 million of these were paid applications. Based on our review of current information, paid applications have a piracy rate of around 75%. That supports the figure that for every paid download, there have been 3 pirated downloads. That puts the number of pirate downloads at 1.53 billion. If the average price of a paid application is $3, that is $4.59 billion dollars in losses split between Apple and the application developers. That is, of course, assuming that all of those pirates would have made purchases had the application not been available to them for free. This is almost certainly not the case. A fair estimate of the proportion of people who would have used the App Store if they did not use pirated applications is about 10%. This estimate yields about $459 million in lost revenue for Apple and application developers.Based on Apple's take of App Store sales of 30%, the report concludes that piracy has cost Apple itself in the neighborhood of $140 million over the past year and a half, a significant loss for the company, especially considering Apple's estimated total App Store revenue of $500-$700 million.

The report also notes that Apple has remained silent about the issue and taken no significant steps to address the issue beyond the initial security measures deployed in the App Store. Assuming Apple's true goal is to sell iPhones and iPods, then like the original iTunes Music Store, the App Store may very well be viewed as a means to that end. Consequently, the hit to Apple's bottom line may be considered somewhat acceptable to the company if it continues to drive device sales, leaving developers to bear the brunt of the revenue loss.

Article Link: Cost of App Store Piracy Pegged at $450 Million (http://www.macrumors.com/2010/01/13/cost-of-app-store-piracy-pegged-at-450-million/)



powerbook911
Jan 13, 2010, 12:46 PM
What are they talking about???

I didn't even know App Store piracy existed. This story seems a bit wild.

dmmcintyre3
Jan 13, 2010, 12:47 PM
Who cares, how many of the people who pirated software would have really bought it? What about the people who pirate it before they buy it to know if it's any good?

funkyp56
Jan 13, 2010, 12:47 PM
huh? you can pirate iphone apps?

miketcool
Jan 13, 2010, 12:48 PM
Could free, ad-based apps stop pirating?

jglavin
Jan 13, 2010, 12:49 PM
for every paid download, there have been 3 pirated downloads.What? :eek:

Edit: The most-snatched app on the site which I know of, has only been snatched 500 times. I'm not sure where they found these 1.5 billion downloads...

ata
Jan 13, 2010, 12:50 PM
I wonder how they came up with 10% as the number of illegal app downloads that would otherwise have been sales... whether it is based on any empirical data or if it is just an estimate (i.e. made up). I know it's probably meant to be a conservative estimate, but I would think it's likely even lower than that.

ThunderSkunk
Jan 13, 2010, 12:50 PM
Cost? I would love to see an itemized detail of this cost. Show me where it has cost anyone anything.

Not making money, is not the same as being cost it.

Get your language right.


And no, I don't pirate apps.

HaXoR7Om
Jan 13, 2010, 12:50 PM
Well what do they expect at the prices that some developers charge :D

DTphonehome
Jan 13, 2010, 12:51 PM
I understand that iPhone piracy is theoretically possible, but how can they possibly suggest that 75% of all apps in circulation are on the devices of users who are savvy enough to figure out how to do it?! That's simply absurd. You can't simply download an iPhone app like you would download a copy of Windows or Photoshop. The authors of this report obviously don't know that.

Stella
Jan 13, 2010, 12:51 PM
What? :eek:

A ratio 3 to 1 is very surprising. I wouldn't have imagined there were so many jail broken devices around for that kind of ratio to be so high.

ChazUK
Jan 13, 2010, 12:52 PM
That does look quite bad.

How can they tell what has been pirated out of interest?

EDIT: Another thing, don't articles do more harm than good by making people aware that you can pirate apps?

aristotle
Jan 13, 2010, 12:53 PM
What are they talking about???

I didn't even know App Store piracy existed. This story seems a bit wild.
Piracy among the jailbreaking community is rampant. That is one of many reasons why I am now opposed to jailbreaking. The other reason is because jailbreaking destroys the security model leaving the iPhone vulnerable to malware.

I would rather see carrier customers pressure carriers in countries like Canada and the US to work with Apple to offer legal/official unlocking of iPhone after completion of a contract, sale of iPhones off contract and offer official unlocking to existing customers for a nominal fee.

I never installed pirated apps when I did jailbreak my previous iPhone (3G) but I can see how some people get tempted into going down that road after the jailbreak to unlock their phones.

I think Apple needs to work with carriers to offer unlocking without a jailbreak and also start banning IMEI's of jailbroken phones found to be running pirated apps.

baryon
Jan 13, 2010, 12:53 PM
How the hell can one pirate iTunes apps? And how come two thirds of all downloaded apps are pirated and I haven't heard about this at all? The whole iTunes thing is such a closed system I thought there wasn't a way to pirate it...

jlasoon
Jan 13, 2010, 12:53 PM
How can you lose money to piracy when most pirates wouldn't think twice about buying the product?

paradox00
Jan 13, 2010, 12:55 PM
huh? you can pirate iphone apps?

With a jailbroken iPhone, yes.

Deleted the rest as it was inaccurate.

aristotle
Jan 13, 2010, 12:55 PM
Well what do they expect at the prices that some developers charge :D
Like 99 cents? If you can afford an iphone and data plan, then you can afford to buy apps. A lot of pirates hoard apps that they never use.

nickXedge
Jan 13, 2010, 12:56 PM
I also didn't know that piracy of apps existed. I feel like we would have heard about this by now. Do they mean that if for example I buy an app, and I share it with my brother, I pirated it to him? Because as far as iTunes is concerned, we authorized both our computers so we could share music and thats perfectly okay in terms of Apple's policies, so that's not pirating. I think the author of this article is confused, and possibly stupid.

WildCowboy
Jan 13, 2010, 12:57 PM
I absolutely loathe reports like this though. They assume that each pirated application represents a lost sale, which simply isn't true. Perhaps if you took that number and divided by 10 ($45 million), you might be a little closer to reality.

That's exactly what they did...they estimated that only 10% of pirated downloads would have been a sale.

funkyp56
Jan 13, 2010, 12:57 PM
I also didn't know that piracy of apps existed. I feel like we would have heard about this by now. Do they mean that if for example I buy an app, and I share it with my brother, I pirated it to him? Because as far as iTunes is concerned, we authorized both our computers so we could share music and thats perfectly okay in terms of Apple's policies, so that's not pirating. I think the author of this article is confused, and possibly stupid.

As far as the section I quoted, wouldn't it be 1 in 3 apps are pirated at 75%? If it was 3 apps pirated for every 1 paid, it would be 300% right? Am I wrong here?

As far as I know, apple does not think that is piracy

ShiftyPig
Jan 13, 2010, 12:58 PM
Cost? I would love to see an itemized detail of this cost. Show me where it has cost anyone anything.

Not making money, is not the same as being cost it.

Get your language right.


And no, I don't pirate apps.

Exactly. People download things from the App Store when the price of it is lower than or equal to what they are willing to pay. If someone downloads a pirated copy of Madden instead of paying the 99 cents, that just means they weren't willing to pay 99 cents, not that they stole 99 cents from EA.

Digital Skunk
Jan 13, 2010, 12:58 PM
Like 99 cents? If you can afford an iphone and data plan, then you can afford to buy apps. A lot of pirate hoard apps that they never use.

A good deal of the people buying the phone can't afford either! I've sold many a phone to customers with cold hard cash, full price, and some with terrible credit yielding deposits of $500 or more.

I am a Pro Developer kind of guy, but with the money that the App store IS making, I could care less about that $0.99 that just left some devo's pocket.

eawmp1
Jan 13, 2010, 12:58 PM
A media outlet with piracy issues...really? Can DRM be far behind? :rolleyes:

fergwad
Jan 13, 2010, 12:59 PM
Based on our review of current information, paid applications have a piracy rate of around 75%.

I read that as "we made an arbitrary decision about this figure".

A fair estimate of the proportion of people who would have used the App Store if they did not use pirated applications is about 10%.

That may be a "fair" estimate, but it doesn't mean it is accurate.

Not making money, is not the same as being cost it.

A very important distinction. Thank you for making it!

Buschmaster
Jan 13, 2010, 01:00 PM
Dear pirates,
Don't try to justify it. You're stealing. Just stop.

Love,
Me

speedfreak007
Jan 13, 2010, 01:00 PM
3 pirated downloads each time someone purchases an app? that's just ridiculous! how can you calculate such important statistics with such few data? that's way to high, you could just say a number and it will be more accurate then that one.

paradox00
Jan 13, 2010, 01:00 PM
That's exactly what they did...they estimated that only 10% of pirated downloads would have been a sale.

Haha. I guess I should have read the article.

aristotle
Jan 13, 2010, 01:01 PM
How can you lose money to piracy when most pirates wouldn't think twice about buying the product?
They will think twice if Apple starts bricking their phones permanently.

HaXoR7Om
Jan 13, 2010, 01:02 PM
Like 99 cents? If you can afford an iphone and data plan, then you can afford to buy apps. A lot of pirates hoard apps that they never use.

They come in different prices one of the most expensive being $900

Buschmaster
Jan 13, 2010, 01:02 PM
A 50" TV isn't worth $900 to me, so I can just go take one? That's how it works?

I'm on my way to Best Buy right now! Thanks for the tips guys!

ThunderSkunk
Jan 13, 2010, 01:02 PM
As many apps that are worth the money to a customer, they have sold. Any that are not, they haven't.

We went through this in the music industry a decade ago. If your cd isn't worth paying for to a customer, you are not going to get the sale. You're not selling him that cd, because it's not worth the money to him. Whether he spends his time to make himself a copy, or whether he hears the only track he likes on his friends car stereo, you are not making the sale, not because the car stereo cost you, or the cd burner cost you, but because you didn't offer a product at a price he thought was worth it. Your problem, you fix it. Make better albums, charge people less, let people just buy singles without the filler, let people hear what they're getting before they have to shell out the $ for a whole album.

App developers, you're gonna continue to not make revenue if you offer stupid apps, and apps that cannot be tried or tested before they're purchased. Fix it.


Again, no, I don't pirate apps.

ericinboston
Jan 13, 2010, 01:03 PM
I understand that iPhone piracy is theoretically possible, but how can they possibly suggest that 75% of all apps in circulation are on the devices of users who are savvy enough to figure out how to do it?! That's simply absurd. You can't simply download an iPhone app like you would download a copy of Windows or Photoshop. The authors of this report obviously don't know that.

I totally agree. I'm a techie and have owned my iPhone since Sep. I have never pirated an app or even looked into it. Now, thanks to this article, I am curious about it...but read on to see why it just doesn't make any sense.

Apple and others are trying to tell us that piracy is going on?!...on a device that is clearly aimed at simplicity and ease of use...?!...and a very proprietary operating system/platform that I only have a few options to adjust?!(Meaning, I'm not traversing the system looking for config files to play with, etc) No way. I don't buy this at all. Show me how people are pirating...AND...how they KNOW people ARE pirating and I'll believe it when I see it. Let's see some software titles and vendors/authors names up there.

Besides, most of these apps are like $5 or less...not much reason for ANYONE to go out spending time to research how to pirate just to save $2 or $5. Seriously. Piracy happens to software apps (and has been since the early 80's when I first got into computers with the Apple //e) that cost $40 and up. Not $1.99. Piracy at $1.99 is not just worth the time (nor the penalty if you get caught). Sure, you can reply with "piracy can happen to any software title" but realistically, it's not happening to software titles that cost less than a small sandwhich at a sub shop.

It's also one thing to download or copy a software title and use it on a computer that is not hooked up to the internet versus a handheld device that is always on the internet...allowing Apple or others to snoop and see what you have "installed".

Lastly, all software authors/vendors factor in piracy or "loss" as their pricepoint...just like retailers mark their prices after considering theft/shoplifting. I'm not saying anyone deserves piracy, but it's already factored in to that $1.99 app you bought...just like the $29 sweater I bought last week or the $79 copy of Photoshop Elements.


-Eric

Rocketman
Jan 13, 2010, 01:03 PM
Apple tends to not like copy protection. It would rather sue Paystar (sp), have acceptable losses on sales, etc.

If some developers wanted to institute copy protection or licensing schemes for value added apps, I would think Apple would agree to it in exchange for a fee, perhaps 3% of sales. I would think vertical market software firms would consider copy protection mandatory and a prerequisite to developing for a platform.

Rocketman

powerbook911
Jan 13, 2010, 01:04 PM
THis is just amazing to me.

The Apps are tied to your iTunes user account, so it makes no sense to me how they do it.

Furthermore, these Apps are cheap, I buy one whenever I want, and it doesn't hurt my wallet.

HaXoR7Om
Jan 13, 2010, 01:05 PM
A 50" TV isn't worth $900 to me, so I can just go take one? That's how it works?

I'm on my way to Best Buy right now! Thanks for the tips guys!

hehe, no I agree piracy is bad and the same as stealing.

nickXedge
Jan 13, 2010, 01:06 PM
A 50" TV isn't worth $900 to me, so I can just go take one? That's how it works?

I'm on my way to Best Buy right now! Thanks for the tips guys!

I could be wrong but I don't think anyone here is advocating the piracy of apps. In this community (MacRumors), I think we feel for developers more than most others. It seems this is just a discussion about the article and how ridiculous it sounds. I've already learned in the past 5 minutes form reading these posts about the piracy of apps and I didn't even put it together that Jailbreaking makes piracy easy.

You seem very offensive against piracy, which is good, but I think you might be on the brink of lashing out at members here, and I urge you not to do so. This, for the most part, is a very friendly forum with some great discussions, let's try to keep it that way please. It's why I return here day after day, for the knowledge and discussions, not the arguments.

macfan881
Jan 13, 2010, 01:06 PM
heres what apple needs to do apple needs to develop a demo system for EVERY Paid app if Apple did that I think you would have alot less Piracy. People complain theres to much crap in the store wich they got a case if people downloaded the demo then decided they dont like it I think it would be alot beter people wont have to pirate etc.

ChrisA
Jan 13, 2010, 01:08 PM
I wonder how many more iPhones and iPod Touches Apple sold because of the availability of these pirated apps?

This actually helps sell PCs. Many people with little income (say in China) would never buy a PC if they had to pay for the software. So it is the existence of the "free" software that creates the demand for the hardware.

But with iPhones the apps are cheap so I doubt this effect is strong.

Speedy2
Jan 13, 2010, 01:08 PM
The usual stupid nonsense.

"and the proportion of pirated app users who would have paid for the applications had pirated versions not been available."

HOW exactly is that number calculated?? It's nothing but speculation and non-educated guessing. These purported "losses" do not exist!

No, I am not for piracy and hacked iPhones etc. But I believe that the problem is grossly exaggerated.

sososowhat
Jan 13, 2010, 01:09 PM
+1What are they talking about???

I didn't even know App Store piracy existed. This story seems a bit wild.
Is it even possible without jailbreaking? I'd never heard of this before.

The numbers sound completely bogus anyway. What percentage of phones are jailbroken so that 3/4 of "paid" app downloads are stolen? Jailbreakers must be downloading hundreds of apps each. I doubt anything like 10% of those pirates would have paid were the apps weren't free. One percent, maybe. 0.1% more likely. If so, there's no significant loss of revenue here to anybody.

nagromme
Jan 13, 2010, 01:09 PM
The worst is all the money that pirates directly TAKE from developers. Not just fail to pay (“try before you buy” then “forget” to buy) but actually take out of developers’ pockets:

* Server load for online content, high score lists and support forums

* Developer’s time giving tech support when pirates email them for help (happens all the time)

* Developer’s lost sales when pirates give bad reviews (as anyone who gets a free game is liable to do—it means they didn’t have really want it before they got it)

None of the above are free. And most pirates are not some kind of noble consumer advocates. They just want what they want and don’t care. Maybe they invent reasons to sort of justify it to themselves, or maybe they don’t.

cublah
Jan 13, 2010, 01:09 PM
A ratio 3 to 1 is very surprising. I wouldn't have imagined there were so many jail broken devices around for that kind of ratio to be so high.

I have analytics in my app and I can confirm that I am getting 2.8 pirated versions to each 1 sold on the App Store.

ericinboston
Jan 13, 2010, 01:09 PM
heres what apple needs to do apple needs to develop a demo system for EVERY Paid app if Apple did that I think you would have alot less Piracy. People complain theres to much crap in the store wich they got a case if people downloaded the demo then decided they dont like it I think it would be alot beter people wont have to pirate etc.

Have you ever taken 5th Grade English or Grammar? What about 4th Grade Spelling?

Please show us what you've learned if you have passed such courses.

DTphonehome
Jan 13, 2010, 01:10 PM
heres what apple needs to do apple needs to develop a demo system for EVERY Paid app if Apple did that I think you would have alot less Piracy. People complain theres to much crap in the store wich they got a case if people downloaded the demo then decided they dont like it I think it would be alot beter people wont have to pirate etc.

I agree. Give devs the ability to specify a trial period and would-be pirates will try the app and just let it expire if they don't intend to pirate/purchase it.

Buschmaster
Jan 13, 2010, 01:11 PM
I could be wrong but I don't think anyone here is advocating the piracy of apps. In this community (MacRumors), I think we feel for developers more than most others. It seems this is just a discussion about the article and how ridiculous it sounds. I've already learned in the past 5 minutes form reading these posts about the piracy of apps and I didn't even put it together that Jailbreaking makes piracy easy.

You seem very offensive against piracy, which is good, but I think you might be on the brink of lashing out at members here, and I urge you not to do so. This, for the most part, is a very friendly forum with some great discussions, let's try to keep it that way please. It's why I return here day after day, for the knowledge and discussions, not the arguments.
I'm so against the piracy because I am myself a developer.;)

Although I've always been against the piracy. Urging friends to buy their music etc. etc.

I just don't buy the argument of "I can't afford it" or "It's not worth it to me" because I feel the same way about literally billions of things. And instead of just stealing them I just don't use/obtain them.

I won't lash out at anyone, I just don't get how stealing became so generally accepted over such a short amount of time.:(

3D0G
Jan 13, 2010, 01:11 PM
The rough number is based on several estimates regarding the proportion of downloads that are paid applications, the piracy rate for paid applications, and the proportion of pirated app users who would have paid for the applications had pirated versions not been available.

Exactly. People download things from the App Store when the price of it is lower than or equal to what they are willing to pay. If someone downloads a pirated copy of Madden instead of paying the 99 cents, that just means they weren't willing to pay 99 cents, not that they stole 99 cents from EA.

The report did in fact assume that only 10% of the pirated downloads would have been sales if the pirated copies weren't available. You are simply (correctly) arguing that the other 90% do not represent losses to the game developer, but the report doesn't count those 90% as losses to the developer either. You can certainly argue with the 10% estimate, but, given that estimate, the language ("cost" or "stole") is appropriate.

D A
Jan 13, 2010, 01:11 PM
Over 3 billion apps have been downloaded from the AppStore, There is no way in hell pirated downloads is even close to half of that. I call that number bogus.

DTphonehome
Jan 13, 2010, 01:12 PM
I have analytics in my app and I can confirm that I am getting 2.8 pirated versions to each 1 sold on the App Store.

But how many people are actually USING the pirated version of your app? Versus just launching it to try it out...
I bet that people who buy it use it far more than the pirates.

Bregalad
Jan 13, 2010, 01:12 PM
Are there really that many jailbroken phones out there? I know about 40 iPhone owners and only one of them has jailbroken it.

Outside China and Russia are more than 5% of phones jailbroken? I doubt it. And I bet the hacking rate on the iPod touch is negligible.

That means either piracy is nowhere near as bad as reported or the pirates are voracious downloaders who spend hours acquiring hundreds of apps they'll likely never run. Can't see how there are more than a handful of real lost sales in that environment.

ironman159
Jan 13, 2010, 01:12 PM
I understand that iPhone piracy is theoretically possible, but how can they possibly suggest that 75% of all apps in circulation are on the devices of users who are savvy enough to figure out how to do it?! That's simply absurd. You can't simply download an iPhone app like you would download a copy of Windows or Photoshop. The authors of this report obviously don't know that.

Actually I read somewhere how to do it and its pretty easy once you have your device jailbroken. Anyway, I know the real solution that maybe end this thing. Like music, apps (most of those apps GAMES) aren't released in every country's App Store (ex. Costa Rica) so people who buy iPods touch in that country with the idea of downloading games are left with no other option than jailbreak, because its the only way to get them.

Xian Zhu Xuande
Jan 13, 2010, 01:14 PM
Three pirated for each purchased? That number seems like total nonsense. If I can see it with anything it would be apps like Wolfram Alpha, which people might pirate just to see what the heck it is, while so many would never consider paying the high price point for the tool, or would choose to use the online version rather than pay up.

That, and I imagine there are nowhere near enough jailbroken phones out there to constitute this sort of number, nor are all people with jailbroken phones doing this.

On a related note, one thing I do know people download pirated apps for is to get a real trial. More than half the apps I've purchased, despite being careful, were not used very long at all (and in some cases deleted on the same day). I would have loved to enjoy some trials. And I doubt all the people downloading pirated apps want the long-term headache of managing them.

Finally, only a fraction of the people downloading a pirated app would have actually paid for it anyway. Converting that directly into a figure of 'revenue lost' is utter nonsense.

Gauthic
Jan 13, 2010, 01:14 PM
I wonder how many of those are legitimate redownloads of deleted software due to memory constraints....

JPark
Jan 13, 2010, 01:14 PM
Like 99 cents? If you can afford an iphone and data plan, then you can afford to buy apps. A lot of pirates hoard apps that they never use.

Hence the smiley face at the end of his post.

ChazUK
Jan 13, 2010, 01:14 PM
heres what apple needs to do apple needs to develop a demo system for EVERY Paid app if Apple did that I think you would have alot less Piracy. People complain theres to much crap in the store wich they got a case if people downloaded the demo then decided they dont like it I think it would be alot beter people wont have to pirate etc.

It's a lovely thought but I think they will pirate apps regardless. Android Market has a 24 hour refund process but piracy is still a problem on the platform.

There will always be an excuse with pirates. :(

Beric
Jan 13, 2010, 01:14 PM
Those numbers look like they just came out of thin air. I'd like to see where they really came from.

Regardless, the piracy looks like it's pretty rampant. But on $1-5 apps? Really?I'm guessing it's more iPod Touch piracy though, for people who just barely got onto the OS, and couldn't afford the apps, meaning younger users who are willing to mess with technology to get it to work.

jmmo20
Jan 13, 2010, 01:16 PM
What puzzles me is that Apple has done NOTHING to stop app piracy itself, such as changhing the DRM like they'd done lots of time when the itunes music had drm.

All effort is put towards stopping jailbreaking.
Jailbreaking actually gives them more money.

For example now that I have a jailbroken iphone I would never buy an hypotetical iPhone 4G until it was jailbreakable. I cannot live with a non-jb iphone. JB improves the iphone. The user that says it breaks the security model for malware doesn't know what they are talking about. Yes, installing certain apps could damage your iphone but you gotta know what you using, and besides this last warning with the SSH issue in Australia made developers more aware and careful about security. JB improves apple products for those of us who are not mere "plain customers" but rather tech savvy.


Instead of changing iboot chips, releasing firmwares that break jailbraking, they should be putting all their effort at stopping app piracy itself.

Saying Jailbreaking promotes piracy is like saying that in a Mac, if you use the "full Finder" rather than the "limited Finder" you're actually promoting Mac apps piracy becuase the user can download and install cracked DMG files.

HaXoR7Om
Jan 13, 2010, 01:16 PM
I'm so against the piracy because I am myself a developer.;)

Although I've always been against the piracy. Urging friends to buy their music etc. etc.

I just don't buy the argument of "I can't afford it" or "It's not worth it to me" because I feel the same way about literally billions of things. And instead of just stealing them I just don't use/obtain them.

I won't lash out at anyone, I just don't get how stealing became so generally accepted over such a short amount of time.:(

We're not endorsing piracy lolz we're just speculating as to why people would do it e.g the expense. I know how you feel and I to would be angry if someone stole one of my applications after I had spent ages coding it.

Stella
Jan 13, 2010, 01:16 PM
I have analytics in my app and I can confirm that I am getting 2.8 pirated versions to each 1 sold on the App Store.

How can you detect a pirated app vs paid for app?

JPark
Jan 13, 2010, 01:16 PM
Lies, damned lies, and... what was that third one again?

Westside guy
Jan 13, 2010, 01:16 PM
I think stealing apps is wrong, just like downloading movies or music illegally is wrong.

Having said that - these sorts of stories are silly, and in my opinion have very little to do with reality. Those people I know that steal stuff (movies and music anyway - don't know any app thieves) seem to have very little interest in buying anything - it generally seems to be more of a geek "look at my giant media library I'm so 1337 and you suxorz bwahahaha..." thing. The solutions that get proposed to address this "problem" end up making life harder for guys like me that try to do the right thing - it doesn't perceptibly impact the folks doing the stealing.

nickXedge
Jan 13, 2010, 01:17 PM
I'm so against the piracy because I am myself a developer.;)

Although I've always been against the piracy. Urging friends to buy their music etc. etc.

I just don't buy the argument of "I can't afford it" or "It's not worth it to me" because I feel the same way about literally billions of things. And instead of just stealing them I just don't use/obtain them.

I won't lash out at anyone, I just don't get how stealing became so generally accepted over such a short amount of time.:(

I don't disagree with anything you say at all. I'm right there with you 100%. I just don't think people here are saying they feel that way, they are just explaining the pirate point of view and helping to explain how this happens to people like me who didn't realize this was even possible, let alone an issue. I stopped pirating music when Napster got in trouble, I literally didn't know it was wrong until then. I was about 12 at the time, so I didn't really know better, this was all new to me. I stopped downloading music altogether then and when I could afford an iPod some years later, I started using iTunes and have been ever since. When I can't afford something, I live without it just as you do.

Swift
Jan 13, 2010, 01:18 PM
Is this what the googlephone fans mean by "open" and get so mad at Apple for? You mean, it's not about AT&T and iTunes, and it's just about their desire to pirate apps? Most of which are free?

Neerazan
Jan 13, 2010, 01:18 PM
Figures from the article itself (excuse my not cutting and pasting with quotes)

75 million iPhones and iPod Touches sold.
10% of those are jailbroken.
40% of jailbroken devices have pirated software.
A little over 1.5 billion paid apps have been pirated.

And now for some maths...

10% of 75m = 7.5m

40% of 7.5m = 3m

1,500m (thats 1.5 billion in old money) / 3m pirates = 500 paid apps per device.

500 paid apps (on average, some people will have one or two, suggesting some might have heading towards a thousand)?

Sorry, but that sounds ridiculous.

Hence I call FUD and ask that this whole thing gets buried on page 2 :)

BJMRamage
Jan 13, 2010, 01:18 PM
I never even thought of pirated Apps...though I don't have an iPhone either.

or are they talking about Pirate Apps like Pirate-Translators and Plank-walking GPS?

HiRez
Jan 13, 2010, 01:20 PM
This is a bad article because it doesn't even address how such a thing could even happen. I thought the whole point of funneling the apps through the store was to prevent piracy (and make sure Apple gets paid, obviously). Weird.

nickXedge
Jan 13, 2010, 01:22 PM
I never even thought of pirated Apps...though I don't have an iPhone either.

or are they talking about Pirate Apps like Pirate-Translators and Plank-walking GPS?

Ahhhh nice job.

ChazUK
Jan 13, 2010, 01:22 PM
Is this what the googlephone fans mean by "open" and get so mad at Apple for? You mean, it's not about AT&T and iTunes, and it's just about their desire to pirate apps? Most of which are free?

No, it's got nothing to do with stealing software. My vision of open is this: http://source.android.com/

ipoppy
Jan 13, 2010, 01:22 PM
I think Apple needs to work with carriers to offer unlocking without a jailbreak and also start banning IMEI's of jailbroken phones found to be running pirated apps.

It wont help. Jailbrake allows people to use 3G instead wifi for many applications and thats the main reason. The second reason is changing the carrier but here in UK its not the case any longer and it won't be in US soon enough.
...and honestly I have no clue how they will find out what apps I got on my iPhone. Despite all speculations its not possible to locate such iphone;)

mspy
Jan 13, 2010, 01:24 PM
I am surprised that so many people did not know about pirated apps. It can be a big problem for developers who have apps with push notification since a server is required to make that feature work. The more users I have the greater my costs. If those users did not pay for the app it hurts me.

It's twice as bad for me since my server also monitors the weather for my users, legitimate and pirated. Windowcast (http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/windowcast-with-rain-alerts/id325071234?mt=8) and TopDown (http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/top-down-weather/id320789994?mt=8)

I understand the argument that pirates would not have bought the app to begin with but in my case each pirated copy of my app it taking money away from me. Instead of being a "lost" sale it eats into my proceeds.

tatonka
Jan 13, 2010, 01:24 PM
What a load of Hogwash .. !

The estimate on the number of pirated apps may acutally be true. The estimate on the loss is almost certainly not. 1 in 10 would buy it .. child please.

I agree however with what was said earlier .. it is also about the money spent to keep servers alive which are being used by pirates. But it is up to the developers to stop that .. apparently detecting piracy is possible .. so why not have it break the connection.

T.

DTphonehome
Jan 13, 2010, 01:24 PM
It wont help. Jailbrake allows people to use 3G instead wifi for many applications and thats the main reason. The second reason is changing the carrier but here in UK its not the case any longer and it won't be in US soon enough.
...and honestly I have no clue how they will find out what apps I got on my iPhone. Despite all speculations its not possible to locate such iphone;)

I myself can't live without backgrounder and QuickReply! And the unlock will come in handy next time I'm overseas. I have zero interest in pirating, however. If I want a program, I'll buy it. It's really not that expensive.

I am surprised that so many people did not know about pirated apps. It can be a big problem for developers who have apps with push notification since a server is required to make that feature work. The more users I have the greater my costs. If those users did not pay for the app it hurts me.

It's twice as bad for me since my server also monitors the weather for my users, legitimate and pirated.

I understand the argument that pirates would not have bought the app to begin with but in my case each pirated copy of my app it taking money away from me. Instead of being a "lost" sale it eats into my proceeds.

Isn't there any way to deny service to pirated copies?

macgreiner
Jan 13, 2010, 01:25 PM
75% - what rubbish. All conjecture and no empirical metrics.

aristotle
Jan 13, 2010, 01:26 PM
They come in different prices one of the most expensive being $900
Yes and those that cost hundreds of dollars are priced that way because they serve a niche. If a member of the niche pirates a copy and uses the app frequently, that lost sale costs the developer a lot more than the piracy of 99 cent apps.

Ninja Dom
Jan 13, 2010, 01:26 PM
THis is just amazing to me.

The Apps are tied to your iTunes user account, so it makes no sense to me how they do it.

Furthermore, these Apps are cheap, I buy one whenever I want, and it doesn't hurt my wallet.

It's far easier and more rampant than you actually realize.

As has been said before, you need a jailbroken iPhone/iPod Touch. There's an illegal App store available to those units. Pirated versions of apps appear within a couple of days of the real version going on sale in the official App store.

Almost everything is available including the expensive Sat Nav programs.

Speedy2
Jan 13, 2010, 01:27 PM
Your problem, you fix it. Make better albums, charge people less, let people just buy singles without the filler, let people hear what they're getting before they have to shell out the $ for a whole album.



That's not how it works and you are making the matter waaaay too easy. There's always a certain part of the population that will always take something when it's free instead of paying for it, especially when it's very easy to get the stuff for free (music downloads). iPhone app piracy is the best example. These people are willing to shell out $1500 or something over the course of 2 years for the device and are cheeky enough to pirate $5 apps.

There is no justification for piracy. If you (and I don't mean you personally) think it's not worth it, don't buy it. Simple as that. If you do pirate it, you're just a hypocrite. Or you can just be honest and say "yes it's bad and I know it". But coming up with excuses is just lame.

I agree that "stealing" is a bad analogy for software piracy.

fishkorp
Jan 13, 2010, 01:27 PM
Cost? I would love to see an itemized detail of this cost. Show me where it has cost anyone anything.

Not making money, is not the same as being cost it.

Get your language right.


And no, I don't pirate apps.

Push apps or apps that rely on a server "cost" the developer money. I rely on monthly sales to help pay my server costs. If everyone pirated my app instead of buying it, I would be losing money because I have monthly server fees doing all the data checking and pushing that I would need to pay out of my pocket. Pirated apps do indeed "cost" developers money.

rKunda
Jan 13, 2010, 01:27 PM
Who cares, how many of the people who pirated software would have really bought it? What about the people who pirate it before they buy it to know if it's any good?

Yeah, because I'm so sure /most/ people willing to go through the process of pirating apps does so with such noble intentions. I even doubt that most people that claim this are lying, and that's a small portion of people that have no qualms about stealing apps at all.

kirky29
Jan 13, 2010, 01:27 PM
To be honest, I don't believe these numbers.

Digital Skunk
Jan 13, 2010, 01:28 PM
I won't lash out at anyone, I just don't get how stealing became so generally accepted over such a short amount of time.:(

Stealing or any of the other things people do wrong in society.

I am sure everyone's justification for it will be, "As long as I am not hurting anyone, it's okay!"

Is this what the googlephone fans mean by "open" and get so mad at Apple for? You mean, it's not about AT&T and iTunes, and it's just about their desire to pirate apps? Most of which are free?

I know you are just kidding, but WAY WRONG.

/dev/toaster
Jan 13, 2010, 01:28 PM
With this article being published, the problem is only going to get far worse. Most people don't know how to pirate iPhone apps and that is a good thing. I have had friends question if its possible and I just refuse to answer.

*IF* I was going to jailbreak my phone again it would be for that awesome home status screen with the widgets or maybe to enable tethering but that it is about it. Not going to pirate applications.

HaXoR7Om
Jan 13, 2010, 01:29 PM
Yes and those that cost hundreds of dollars are priced that way because they serve a niche. If a member of the niche pirates a copy and uses the app frequently, that lost sale costs the developer a lot more than the piracy of 99 cent apps.

Yes, And I'm not endorsing piracy

aristotle
Jan 13, 2010, 01:31 PM
How can you detect a pirated app vs paid for app?
Using the API, you can check to see if the application is encrypted or not. Pirated apps are unencrypted while apps from the appstore are encrypted and signed to an iTunes store account.

VenusianSky
Jan 13, 2010, 01:32 PM
Cost? I would love to see an itemized detail of this cost. Show me where it has cost anyone anything.

Not making money, is not the same as being cost it.

Get your language right.


And no, I don't pirate apps.

I was thinking the same thing. How did it cost Apple? Did that many people pirate Texas Hold'em? Are they losing money that was invested to bring up the App Store? Doubtful considering the beaucoup bucks they make from music sales.

Digital Skunk
Jan 13, 2010, 01:33 PM
I agree that "stealing" is a bad analogy for software piracy.

No, it's the perfect analogy. Software piracy IS stealing.

Someone worked hard to develop a piece of code that serves a market. Instead of paying for it and supporting the person(s) you get a copy for free illegally.

In the end, your taking money from the devos.

DTphonehome
Jan 13, 2010, 01:34 PM
Using the API, you can check to see if the application is encrypted or not. Pirated apps are unencrypted while apps from the appstore are encrypted and signed to an iTunes store account.

If that's the case, why can't devs block service to pirated apps?

daveak
Jan 13, 2010, 01:38 PM
I wonder how many of those are legitimate redownloads of deleted software due to memory constraints....

Memory constraints? Out of disk space on their computer? If you delete from your device to make room for more apps/music/video then you always have the copy still on your computer from syncing with itunes.

lannister80
Jan 13, 2010, 01:38 PM
Sounds like they subscribe to the "RIAA School of Accounting", aka making up giant dollar figures they're "owed".

macfan881
Jan 13, 2010, 01:39 PM
Have you ever taken 5th Grade English or Grammar? What about 4th Grade Spelling?

Please show us what you've learned if you have passed such courses.

How about you stop being a A$$ and get back on topic. There is that grammar better.

Speedy2
Jan 13, 2010, 01:40 PM
It wont help. Jailbrake allows people to use 3G instead wifi for many applications and thats the main reason. The second reason is changing the carrier but here in UK its not the case any longer and it won't be in US soon enough.



The simlock is - in my opinion - the very main reason. For example, nearly all iPhones in Russia and China are unlocked phones, and they were unlocked first of all because you couldn't / can't buy the phone there. It's similar in countries with a single iPhone carrier and other GSM carriers (i.e., unlike the US where the major alternative carriers run on CDMA)

Also many people unlock their phone because they want to put in a different sim card when they are going abroad on a holiday. Major issue in Europe. You cross a border using your phone, your phone bill will skyrocket.

paradox00
Jan 13, 2010, 01:44 PM
No, it's the perfect analogy. Software piracy IS stealing.

Someone worked hard to develop a piece of code that serves a market. Instead of paying for it and supporting the person(s) you get a copy for free illegally.

In the end, your taking money from the devos.

It isn't perfect for reasons people already stated. Theft results in the loss of the costs incurred producing the product and lost profit (if you take it off the store shelf no one else can buy it, and it was very likely that someone would have). Piracy only results in a potential loss of profit (would the pirate have bought it?).

Piracy is its own can of worms and should be treated as such.

ktappe
Jan 13, 2010, 01:47 PM
I know about 20 people with iPhones. Not a single one has any pirated apps. I refuse to believe that this article is accurate--iPhone app piracy simply is not that prevalent.

daveak
Jan 13, 2010, 01:48 PM
As many apps that are worth the money to a customer, they have sold. Any that are not, they haven't.

We went through this in the music industry a decade ago. If your cd isn't worth paying for to a customer, you are not going to get the sale. You're not selling him that cd, because it's not worth the money to him. Whether


This train of thought only works if you have a perfect market, everyone fully informed of what is on offer. One big problem with the App Store is visibility. If you aren't visible, you don't sell. This is why many less scrupulous developers pushed pointless updates, just to get on the new releases pages. If there are no or low sales for an app doesn't necessarily mean it isn't worth the $0.99 it might be selling for, or the $10 it might be selling for.


App developers, you're gonna continue to not make revenue if you offer stupid apps, and apps that cannot be tried or tested before they're purchased. Fix it.

It seems it is the stupid apps that do actually make money, boobs, farts, soundboards, heatpads etc. etc.

As for try before you buy, why? Do you sample food in any restaurant you eat in before you sit down and order? Do all the apps on your computer have demo versions available? Most apps are at a price point where you just need to make a simple decision, Does this look good? Is it something I would like? Then you take the gamble. Caveat Emptor.

shawnce
Jan 13, 2010, 01:48 PM
If that's the case, why can't devs block service to pirated apps?

If the application is running on a jail broken phone and/or has itself been modified when pirated then any ability to reliability call any API to make such a decision can be worked around by the pirate. Developers could make a best effort at trying to detect this, assuming the application contacts servers of their own, and only then likely block access to their server. Again even something like that could be worked around.

AAPLaday
Jan 13, 2010, 01:49 PM
Apple was quick enough to stop Palm Pre syncing with itunes. They should do more to stop this.

Gauthic
Jan 13, 2010, 01:50 PM
Memory constraints? Out of disk space on their computer? If you delete from your device to make room for more apps/music/video then you always have the copy still on your computer from syncing with itunes.

Actually I know quite a few iPhone users who don't even touch their computer and use the App Store and iTunes on their Phone exclusively....not every iPhone user is a full-time computer user. These people use their iPhone effectively AS their computer (at least their PERSONAL computer).

TBH I rarely sync my Phone with my computer....maybe once every other month or so.

NoSmokingBandit
Jan 13, 2010, 01:51 PM
A 50" TV isn't worth $900 to me, so I can just go take one? That's how it works?

I'm on my way to Best Buy right now! Thanks for the tips guys!

Copying data is not the same as stealing materials.

Buschmaster
Jan 13, 2010, 01:51 PM
It isn't perfect for reasons people already stated. Theft results in the loss of the costs incurred producing the product and lost profit (if you take it off the store shelf no one else can buy it, and it was very likely that someone would have). Piracy only results in a potential loss of profit (would the pirate have bought it?).

Piracy is its own can of worms and should be treated as such.
Someone stealing an app instead of buying it isn't lost profit?

Developers are paid just like everyone else, they cost money. Servers cost money. Websites cost money. The dev program costs money. Dev books cost money. The test devices cost money.

It's stealing.

daveak
Jan 13, 2010, 01:51 PM
If that's the case, why can't devs block service to pirated apps?

If the app is properly cracked then the piracy check is just bypassed.

If you have a server component to your app you can potentially block access, but it would seem to be purely speculation on the app being pirated (if the piracy check was bypassed in the app code)

Digital Skunk
Jan 13, 2010, 01:52 PM
Actually you're wrong for reasons people already stated. Theft results in the loss of the costs incurred producing the product and lost profit (if you take it off the store shelf no one else can buy it, and it was very likely that someone would have). Piracy only results in a potential loss of profit (would the pirate have bought it?).

Piracy is its own can of worms and should be treated as such.

Great!

I still consider piracy to be stealing.

Every definition I see doesn't mention any thing about "results in the loss of the costs incurred producing the product and lost profit" not that I don't agree to some extent, just not 100%.

Software piracy fits with every definition of theft or stealing that I see.

AAPLaday
Jan 13, 2010, 01:52 PM
Copying data is not the same as stealing materials.

If its property its property

andiwm2003
Jan 13, 2010, 01:53 PM
.............................I would rather see carrier customers pressure carriers in countries like Canada and the US to work with Apple to offer legal/official unlocking of iPhone after completion of a contract, sale of iPhones off contract and offer official unlocking to existing customers for a nominal fee.
......................................................................


i don't know how it is these days but a few years back in germany i got my unlock codes for free from telecom after my two years were up. i'm surprised that apple isn't forced to provide unlock keys after two years here in the us. after all you have paid your phone and subsidy and the phone is yours.

lex750
Jan 13, 2010, 01:55 PM
Piracy will always exist. Get over it and move on.

BaldiMac
Jan 13, 2010, 01:56 PM
It isn't perfect for reasons people already stated. Theft results in the loss of the costs incurred producing the product and lost profit (if you take it off the store shelf no one else can buy it, and it was very likely that someone would have). Piracy only results in a potential loss of profit (would the pirate have bought it?).

Piracy is its own can of worms and should be treated as such.

You are talking about the legal definition of theft. In the vernacular, stealing can simply be taking something without the right to do so.

kresh
Jan 13, 2010, 01:57 PM
There is a growing community, for lack of a better word, that reject the idea of owning digital intellectual property, or even the arrangement of "free & public domain" words to form a book or article.

While I don't agree with their reasoning, I can understand their point. At best Intellectual Property is an artificial construct and not a physical one. At the very heart of anything digital (images, apps, music, video) is all a series of 1's and 0's and they argue that the arrangement of these digits can't be owned.

Intellectual Property is going to come under greater and greater assault as more people reject the owning of digits. Just look at the FSF and their assault on software patents.

Speedy2
Jan 13, 2010, 01:57 PM
No, it's the perfect analogy. Software piracy IS stealing.

Someone worked hard to develop a piece of code that serves a market.



It's no way near a perfect analogy.

If you steal something, you take item A from person B. Person B doesn't have that item afterwards, you have it.

Software piracy doesn't take anything away from person B, other than a highly undetermined potential profit.

Two very different things.

disconap
Jan 13, 2010, 01:57 PM
Dear pirates,
Don't try to justify it. You're stealing. Just stop.

Love,
Me

Simplest and most accurate way to put it. Theft is theft. Period. Being a supporter of "art should be free" or whatever doesn't change applicable copyright laws.

Piracy is, by definition, theft. However YOU wish to define it is fine with you but it doesn't make it any less illegal. Just because there is no physical product doesn't mean there is no cost involved, both straight and sweat equity, and that people aren't losing jobs because companies aren't earning the money in sales that they used to.

So grow up and accept it. I'm not saying you're a terrible person or even that you should stop, but DO stop trying to defend it.

AAPLaday
Jan 13, 2010, 01:58 PM
The reason it exists because no one is getting into trouble for it. If even 10 percent of people who did this got fined the numbers would drop dramatically

gnagy
Jan 13, 2010, 02:00 PM
I know about 20 people with iPhones. Not a single one has any pirated apps. I refuse to believe that this article is accurate--iPhone app piracy simply is not that prevalent.

20 people is really not a lot. That's a very small subset of iPhone users.

Fact is that pirating apps is very easy, and there are multiple ways of going about it. Another fact is that people don't feel bad for pirating apps just like they don't feel bad for pirating music.

I'm a developer and I have had people tell me that they were using pirated versions of my app... some of them end up buying it after I provide them with support or answer a question they have.

Piracy tends to happen outside of the USA more often. Also, iPod touch users are more likely to pirate apps than iPhone users.

Oh and I personally refuse to believe that the loss is only $450 million. My guess is that it's much higher.

trevorlsciact
Jan 13, 2010, 02:00 PM
A 50" TV isn't worth $900 to me, so I can just go take one? That's how it works?

I'm on my way to Best Buy right now! Thanks for the tips guys!

Just to clarify, piracy is NOT stealing. It is copyright infringement. It is not the same thing, despite the propaganda spewed out by record labels, movie studios and even Apple.

I do not support piracy, but it is not the same offense as stealing. At all.

TuffLuffJimmy
Jan 13, 2010, 02:01 PM
It isn't perfect for reasons people already stated. Theft results in the loss of the costs incurred producing the product and lost profit (if you take it off the store shelf no one else can buy it, and it was very likely that someone would have). Piracy only results in a potential loss of profit (would the pirate have bought it?).

Piracy is its own can of worms and should be treated as such.
You're suggesting that it isn't stealing because the thief perhaps would not have bought it anyway?

_worst_logic_ever_

BaldiMac
Jan 13, 2010, 02:01 PM
It's no way near a perfect analogy.

If you steal something, you take item A from person B. Person B doesn't have that item afterwards, you have it.

Software piracy doesn't take anything away from person B, other than a highly undetermined potential profit.

Two very different things.

It takes away their rights! Which I, for one, consider more valuable than a hammer.

Also, as pointed out earlier, any push enabled apps or apps that access developer supplied content over the network have definite costs to the developer.

Digital Skunk
Jan 13, 2010, 02:02 PM
It's no way near a perfect analogy.

If you steal something, you take item A from person B. Person B doesn't have that item afterwards, you have it.

Software piracy doesn't take anything away from person B, other than a highly undetermined potential profit.

Two very different things.

Once again,

I PERSONALLY THINK IT'S A PERFECT ANALOGY

I am perfectly wrong, but stealing is stealing, whether it's an idea, a patent, a digital copy, music, software, etc.

If you obtain it illegally it's stealing and you are a thief.

ericinboston
Jan 13, 2010, 02:02 PM
How about you stop being a A$$ and get back on topic. There is that grammar better.

1)I could barely comprehend your original, run-on sentence post...if you can't write English sentences, don't post.

2)No, your grammar is still wrong in your reply. Try again if you wish.


Don't hate or blame me due to your lack of education.

BaldiMac
Jan 13, 2010, 02:03 PM
Just to clarify, piracy is NOT stealing. It is copyright infringement. It is not the same thing, despite the propaganda spewed out by record labels, movie studios and even Apple.

I do not support piracy, but it is not the same offense as stealing. At all.

Again, you are speaking legally. The original statement made no claim as to the legal offense.

disconap
Jan 13, 2010, 02:03 PM
There is a growing community, for lack of a better word, that reject the idea of owning digital intellectual property, or even the arrangement of "free & public domain" words to form a book or article.

Awesome! Reject away. It's still illegal. That's sort of like me saying that I reject the rights of other people and it should be perfectly legal for me to run over someone with my car if they're in my way.

If it was a true community (and there are PLENTY of them out there that actually are doing this), instead of being whiny little kids and stealing from others, they would simply develop their own software/art/music/etc. and release it under CC licensing or into the public domain.

While I don't agree with their reasoning, I can understand their point. At best Intellectual Property is an artificial construct and not a physical one. At the very heart of anything digital (images, apps, music, video) is all a series of 1's and 0's and they argue that the arrangement of these digits can't be owned.

Um, sorry, this is logically inaccurate. The basis of the idea is the idea. Do you have a right to own your ideas? Philosophically it's open for debate; in most modern societies, it's relegated to laws, almost all of which universally state that an idea can belong to its creator as much as a chair, and can be transferred (sold) with very similar rules/results. The 1s and zeros are the format, not the product.

Intellectual Property is going to come under greater and greater assault as more people reject the owning of digits. Just look at the FSF and their assault on software patents.

The FSF is defending the rights of developers to use code that is universal or structurally necessary, not the rights of people to take whatever they want...

disconap
Jan 13, 2010, 02:04 PM
It's no way near a perfect analogy.

If you steal something, you take item A from person B. Person B doesn't have that item afterwards, you have it.

Software piracy doesn't take anything away from person B, other than a highly undetermined potential profit.

Two very different things.

Not really. Building a product costs money regardless of its end format. The fact that a digital product has less overhead than a physical one means that you should pay less for it, not nothing.

jlasoon
Jan 13, 2010, 02:04 PM
Piracy will always exist. Get over it and move on.

Exactly, It's easier today and more accessible. You'll have to shut down the internet (Newsgroups) to stop piracy. NOT HAPPENING.

Vidd
Jan 13, 2010, 02:05 PM
How have Apple "lost" money?
It's not as if they were given it and had it taken away.

Speedy2
Jan 13, 2010, 02:05 PM
As for try before you buy, why? Do you sample food in any restaurant you eat in before you sit down and order? Do all the apps on your computer have demo versions available? Most apps are at a price point where you just need to make a simple decision, Does this look good? Is it something I would like? Then you take the gamble. Caveat Emptor.

I'd even go further. It's not so much a gamble as you can read the reviews. There are plenty of them and they tend to be pretty accurate. For most people it's far more transparent than picking restaurants, when you mostly rely on hazy recommendations of very few people (often just 1).

AAPLaday
Jan 13, 2010, 02:06 PM
I know 5 people with iphones including me. 2 Jailbreak solely to get free apps. I choose not to and the other 2 are non tech savvy females who love the iPhone and have no idea that pirated apps exist. Even if they knew i doubt they would do it.

wizard
Jan 13, 2010, 02:07 PM
Who cares, how many of the people who pirated software would have really bought it? What about the people who pirate it before they buy it to know if it's any good?

Frankly they are as guilty as the person that steals with no intention to buy. As such the best thing that could happen to these people is to be stood up against the wall an shot piece by piece without the dignity of a quick death.

The attitude is as disgusting as the guy that goes around raping woman so he can 'know if it's any good" before a more socially acceptable approach. You certainly can't justify that but there is little difference with respect to the stealing software. Your intentions mean nothing, what you are doing violates the social contract between a customer and the software provider.

Maybe it is a little to strong of a counter point for you but I'd suggest you look at it in another light. Take the position of a software developer that has to support himself, his family and sadly crap like you via the taxes we all pay. Like it or not, not every developer is making millions; some struggle to maintain a middle class life style.

Then add on to this the fact that iPhone software is dirt cheap, relative to what software use to cost. It leave you looking cheap and callous.


Dave

trustbyte
Jan 13, 2010, 02:08 PM
at first i thought this is sarcasm, but you guys are unreal.

where the hell do you live in!? this is after all a mac forum not a fordcars forum, for God's sake

to jailbreak and then install pirated apps is dead easy and the figures are for sure real. just read about lots of devs who collect info about their apps, they are robbed big time.

and some say, but hey, maybe they just pirate it but not really playing it. that's no excuse, it's like robbing a toyota but just keeping it in front of the house 'cause you you ride more the recently stoled porsche..


i kind myself thinking some of them just pirate lots of them and pay for some they really love, at least some cute indies who usually do sales for .99c but i'm afraid they steal all of them.

i own a Touch, i didn't jailbreak mine yet but i'm close. that 10-11 pages limit of apps is killing me and i know jailbreaking resolves this issue.

there is one problem, recent iphones/ipod touches (mine included) have a different boot thingy and so the jailbreak needs to be done after each shutdown/start of the idevice and therefore i stay all tight in for the moment..

they should stop the pirates but not the jailbreaking, there is tons of tweaking/apps in that unix-ish world of the idevice

Parky
Jan 13, 2010, 02:08 PM
Once again,

I PERSONALLY THINK IT'S A PERFECT ANALOGY

I am perfectly wrong, but stealing is stealing, whether it's an idea, a patent, a digital copy, music, software, etc.

If you obtain it illegally it's stealing and you are a thief.

You are 100% correct, it is theft.
These people who try to justify themselves are nothing but common thieves.
There is NO justification for illegally obtaining software that you should pay for. If you want it buy it.

disconap
Jan 13, 2010, 02:08 PM
Exactly, It's easier today and more accessible. You'll have to shut down the internet (Newsgroups) to stop piracy. NOT HAPPENING.

I feel that way about rape. You know, it's just not going to go away. So embrace it.


Right? I mean, that is the basis of your argument, yeah?

mctape
Jan 13, 2010, 02:08 PM
Isn't there any way to deny service to pirated copies?

Sort of. Beejive has figured this out, but their app is 100% dependent on it connecting to their servers to function. I imagine that if the app doesn't need to phone home, there probably isn't a way.

Apple obviously has safeguards in place to prevent people who are not the original buyer from using an app, but this gets removed when the app is cracked, similar to how I remember software cracking working in the 80s.

Westside guy
Jan 13, 2010, 02:09 PM
Once again,

I PERSONALLY THINK IT'S A PERFECT ANALOGY

I am perfectly wrong, but stealing is stealing, whether it's an idea, a patent, a digital copy, music, software, etc.

If you obtain it illegally it's stealing and you are a thief.

I think you're falling into the trap of arguing with a person (or persons) who uses misdirection and pedantry to dance around the actual issue at hand. In other words, you're letting him define the argument.

kresh
Jan 13, 2010, 02:09 PM
Awesome! Reject away. It's still illegal. That's sort of like me saying that I reject the rights of other people and it should be perfectly legal for me to run over someone with my car if they're in my way.

If it was a true community (and there are PLENTY of them out there that actually are doing this), instead of being whiny little kids and stealing from others, they would simply develop their own software/art/music/etc. and release it under CC licensing or into the public domain.

I hear what you are saying, but it was not that long ago that sodomy was illegal in every state in the US, now it is not. All I am saying is what happens when enough of these people form the majority of society and reject the idea of intellectual property?

This report seems to justify that there are far more people rejecting the idea of Intellectual Property by a margin of 3 to 1.

lowonthe456
Jan 13, 2010, 02:11 PM
Well what do they expect at the prices that some developers charge :D


hahahahahahahahahaha


if you steal apps that rarely break $10US....you'd steal from your grandparents/parents then.....

disconap
Jan 13, 2010, 02:12 PM
You are 100% correct, it is theft.
These people who try to justify themselves are nothing but common thieves.
There is NO justification for illegally obtaining software that you should pay for. If you want it buy it.

That's a fundamental problem in places like the US and the UK, where people have grown up with a sense of entitlement. I watch people blame the government and the banks for the economic crisis, yet they themselves are barely making rent and own HDTVs and PS3s/XBOX360s/etc, drive expensive cars, eat out all the time at nice restaurants... The concept of things being worked for is lost on a lot of them.

I don't think the next generation will be as bad, but the current one (and mine, I'm in my early 30s and we're part of it too) is sort of ridiculous when it comes to perspectives on entitlement and ownership. The whole mentality of the piracy argument is based around want, not around deserve.

People work hard to develop music/art/film/software/etc. Getting it for free when the people who spent the time, energy, and money didn't intend it as such is, at best, telling them to go ******* themselves.

AAPLaday
Jan 13, 2010, 02:13 PM
Might as well pirate iLife, Logic, Aperture etc. These aren't free to produce, design or maintain but its not hurting anybody is it? :rolleyes:

ssteve
Jan 13, 2010, 02:13 PM
I also didn't know that piracy of apps existed. I feel like we would have heard about this by now. Do they mean that if for example I buy an app, and I share it with my brother, I pirated it to him? Because as far as iTunes is concerned, we authorized both our computers so we could share music and thats perfectly okay in terms of Apple's policies, so that's not pirating. I think the author of this article is confused, and possibly stupid.

It must have also been a slow news day. :D

InfoSecmgr
Jan 13, 2010, 02:14 PM
Cost? I would love to see an itemized detail of this cost. Show me where it has cost anyone anything.

Not making money, is not the same as being cost it.

Get your language right.


And no, I don't pirate apps.

"Cost" as in what they COULD have made if the apps were not pirated.

disconap
Jan 13, 2010, 02:14 PM
I hear what you are saying, but it was not that long ago that sodomy was illegal in every state in the US, now it is not. All I am saying is what happens when enough of these people form the majority of society and reject the idea of intellectual property?

This report seems to justify that there are far more people rejecting the idea of Intellectual Property by a margin of 3 to 1.

As much as I appreciate the civility of your argument, it is flawed. Sodomy is consensual, piracy is not.

InfoSecmgr
Jan 13, 2010, 02:15 PM
I'm really curious as to what kind of person pirates apps that are anywhere from $0.99 to under $10.00........

Digital Skunk
Jan 13, 2010, 02:15 PM
Who cares, how many of the people who pirated software would have really bought it? What about the people who pirate it before they buy it to know if it's any good?

We all know that doesn't happen too often. Why pirate a fully working copy then buy the same thing?

Or, could I take home that 50" HDTV and Bose sound system try in my house indefinitely, then pay for it when I feel like it or never?

I used to be that guy, and in the end I couldn't justify buying software that I had already stolen.

You are 100% correct, it is theft.
These people who try to justify themselves are nothing but common thieves.
There is NO justification for illegally obtaining software that you should pay for. If you want it buy it.

I don't think they are thieves, the ones negating that piracy is stealing, they are just splitting hairs.

I think you're falling into the trap of arguing with a person (or persons) who uses misdirection and pedantry to dance around the actual issue at hand. In other words, you're letting him define the argument.

This is very true. I'm simply not going to go into a HUGE debate over what I personally consider backwards logic.

The other classifications (copyright infringement, piracy, etc) are just other forms of THEFT and STEALING, not the other way around.

koobcamuk
Jan 13, 2010, 02:16 PM
I won't lash out at anyone, I just don't get how stealing became so generally accepted over such a short amount of time.:(

It's because it's teh internet.

It is NOT the same as stealing someone's car. Nowhere near as traumatic for one thing.

Speedy2
Jan 13, 2010, 02:16 PM
Not really. Building a product costs money regardless of its end format. The fact that a digital product has less overhead than a physical one means that you should pay less for it, not nothing.

What has this to do with the question stealing yes/no?
I never said that piracy has no effect on the revenue of the software developer, quite the opposite.

Piracy is a crime, but it's not the same as theft. You can spread a pirated software a million times and cause much more damage than with a simple theft of property. On the other hand, by illegally downloading Photoshop you don't automatically create a loss of $800 for Adobe.

Sofabutt
Jan 13, 2010, 02:16 PM
Apple did not lose 140 million. You can't lose something you never recieved. Besides 140 million is an estimate based on a lot of supposition.

You have to take these claims with a grain of salt. Piracy exists. There aren't any journalists out there with their finger on the pulse of software pirating well enough to accurately make claims like those in this article. Journalists aren't well known for their ability to tell the truth.

generuss
Jan 13, 2010, 02:17 PM
I think the devs are wrong here.

I can only speak for myself but this is the situation for me with apps and programs.

For example, photoshop cs2 (or what ever cs), lets say i download that from any torrent site, I will download it becuase I can get it for free. If there was no way for me to get it for free, I would never download it or buy it. In that case the developer dont loose any money at all from me.
Same thing with apps on app store.
FIFA10? Yeah I wanna try that! But do I wanna buy it? Hell no! Too expensive!
Can I get it for free? Then allright, I download it!
No way to get it for free? Allright, then I wont download it.

Serelus
Jan 13, 2010, 02:17 PM
Most people here should google more often, not knowing about pirated apps on iPhone. What a joke.
Basically every paid app that is released up until today, is released for free the next day.


there are literally sites like Appulous that provide you with whatever Paid app you're looking for, it's even got the free ones available... and this is after you jailbreak your iPhone (which is also 1 click on the button). People here are acting as if it takes hours to jailbreak and get ahold of pirated apps.... welcome to the internet people, this is just a typical case of piracy. It's just as easy as downloading MP3's which we we all know were pirated 95% of all songs last year.

ELScorcho9
Jan 13, 2010, 02:17 PM
It's humorous to see people try to justify stealing apps by arguing the definition of "piracy" or by arguing that the numbers are all wrong.


Piracy is wrong. That's all there is to it. This isn't a huge debatable topic like some people are making it out to be. :rolleyes:

AAPLaday
Jan 13, 2010, 02:17 PM
I'm really curious as to what kind of person pirates apps that are anywhere from $0.99 to under $10.00........

Anything that can be had for free is a massive allure no matter how little it would have cost.

mctape
Jan 13, 2010, 02:17 PM
I feel that way about rape. You know, it's just not going to go away. So embrace it.


Right? I mean, that is the basis of your argument, yeah?

I mean, this wasn't my post you were replying to, nor my argument, but...

No. That's not the basis of the argument.

LethalWolfe
Jan 13, 2010, 02:18 PM
While I don't agree with their reasoning, I can understand their point. At best Intellectual Property is an artificial construct and not a physical one. At the very heart of anything digital (images, apps, music, video) is all a series of 1's and 0's and they argue that the arrangement of these digits can't be owned.
The digits are just a medium though. That's like saying ink or air can't be owned therefore anything that is printed or made audible is automatically in public domain. The logic is flawed because it focuses on the medium and not what the deliver medium contains. It also fails to take into consideration that the idea behind the product is more valuable than the product itself. For example, a can of Coke costs 60 cents but the formula for Coke is priceless.


Lethal

Vidd
Jan 13, 2010, 02:18 PM
Might as well pirate iLife, Logic, Aperture etc. These aren't free to produce, design or maintain but its not hurting anybody is it? :rolleyes:
Well no, it's not if you never intended to buy it in the first place.

Vulpinemac
Jan 13, 2010, 02:18 PM
Cost? I would love to see an itemized detail of this cost. Show me where it has cost anyone anything.

Not making money, is not the same as being cost it.

Get your language right.

And no, I don't pirate apps.

The problem is that with this mindset, the developers who created the software aren't losing any money either, despite however many copies of the app are stolen. Who cares that they spent time (which costs money), effort (which costs money) and money (which costs money) to create and submit that app to the App Store. Nope, they're just not making any money, right?

Personally, I can think of only one reason why Apple may not be following up on this; they're trying to find a way to prevent it in the first place and need to know who, when, and how it's being done. If they can figure out all three, maybe they can stop it entirely--at least for a while.

wizard
Jan 13, 2010, 02:18 PM
Exactly. People download things from the App Store when the price of it is lower than or equal to what they are willing to pay. If someone downloads a pirated copy of Madden instead of paying the 99 cents, that just means they weren't willing to pay 99 cents, not that they stole 99 cents from EA.

That may not mean much to you but multiply it by thousands, theft makes a huge difference to developers. It is even worst if you are a developer in the small scale, that is of a company 1 to 5 people. A thousand dollars can pay your mortgage for a month.

dave

johncarync
Jan 13, 2010, 02:18 PM
I read the full article and it just doesn't add up...

Estimated iPhones and iPod touches sold: 75,000,000
Estimated jailbroken iPhones/iPod touches: 7,500,000 (10% of total)
Estimated jailbroken who use pirated software: 3,000,000 (40% of jailbroken)
Estimated number of pirated apps downloaded: 1,530,000,000
Number of pirated apps on each jailbroken phone with pirated apps on them: 510
(1.53 billion apps divided by 3 million )

Really? Are these pirates actually loading 510 apps onto their iPhones/iPods?

InfoSecmgr
Jan 13, 2010, 02:18 PM
A good deal of the people buying the phone can't afford either! I've sold many a phone to customers with cold hard cash, full price, and some with terrible credit yielding deposits of $500 or more.

I am a Pro Developer kind of guy, but with the money that the App store IS making, I could care less about that $0.99 that just left some devo's pocket.

You are a "pro developer kind of guy"...but yet you sit there and say its okay for them to lose money because of how much money there is to be made in the market. Wow buddy you sound just like our politicians. Oil execs make way too much money (they are successful) so you want to take their money right? Wow, communist much?

jlasoon
Jan 13, 2010, 02:19 PM
I feel that way about rape. You know, it's just not going to go away. So embrace it.


Right? I mean, that is the basis of your argument, yeah?

Unfortunately you have an IQ of room temperature. I'll leave it at that.

koobcamuk
Jan 13, 2010, 02:19 PM
I think the devs are wrong here.

I can only speak for myself but this is the situation for me with apps and programs.

For example, photoshop cs2 (or what ever cs), lets say i download that from any torrent site, I will download it becuase I can get it for free. If there was no way for me to get it for free, I would never download it or buy it. In that case the developer dont loose any money at all from me.
Same thing with apps on app store.
FIFA10? Yeah I wanna try that! But do I wanna buy it? Hell no! Too expensive!
Can I get it for free? Then allright, I download it!
No way to get it for free? Allright, then I wont download it.

AFAIK this is right for most cases.

CylonGlitch
Jan 13, 2010, 02:20 PM
I have analytics in my app and I can confirm that I am getting 2.8 pirated versions to each 1 sold on the App Store.

I am guessing your getting these stats from how many times it has been downloaded vs. the number of times it has been paid for. And at first this would make logical sense that this is a valid way to do it, but then you have to factor in the legitimate redownloads. I know I have downloaded many of my paid apps several times, sometimes 4 or 5 times for one reason or another. Once it is paid for, you can download it over and over again... doesn't mean I'm pirating it (I don't pirate anything), it may be that I just wiped my phone, or I purchased it on my phone and downloaded it to my laptop or vice versa, or something of that nature. I would say that on average I download every paid app 2 to 3 times.

disconap
Jan 13, 2010, 02:20 PM
What has this to do with the question stealing yes/no?
I never said that piracy has no effect on the revenue of the software developer, quite the opposite.

"Software piracy doesn't take anything away from person B, other than a highly undetermined potential profit."

Your words.

Piracy is a crime, but it's not the same as theft. You can spread a pirated software a million times and cause much more damage than with a simple theft of property. On the other hand, by illegally downloading Photoshop you don't automatically create a loss of $800 for Adobe.

This is true, but in the same way that stealing a candy bar and stealing a car are both theft, piracy is also. Kind of how chicken pox and shingles are both herpes; it's a class of crime, not a specific one...

Speedy2
Jan 13, 2010, 02:21 PM
I think you're falling into the trap of arguing with a person (or persons) who uses misdirection and pedantry to dance around the actual issue at hand. In other words, you're letting him define the argument.

Trap? Misdirection? Pedantry? The world seems to be a place of very easy mechanisms for you.

Try and tell that to a judge and see how smart and superior you'll feel then.

ELScorcho9
Jan 13, 2010, 02:21 PM
Well no, it's not if you never intended to buy it in the first place.

Then why would you pirate it if you weren't going to buy it? Because you would only buy something you intended on using, right? So, theoretically, you have no real use for this app, you're just getting it cause you can.

AAPLaday
Jan 13, 2010, 02:21 PM
Well no, it's not if you never intended to buy it in the first place.

Not intending to buy something is different from not wanting something. If you didn't want the program then why get it for free?

koobcamuk
Jan 13, 2010, 02:21 PM
I am guessing your getting these stats from how many times it has been downloaded vs. the number of times it has been paid for. And at first this would make logical sense that this is a valid way to do it, but then you have to factor in the legitimate redownloads. I know I have downloaded many of my paid apps several times, sometimes 4 or 5 times for one reason or another. Once it is paid for, you can download it over and over again... doesn't mean I'm pirating it (I don't pirate anything), it may be that I just wiped my phone, or I purchased it on my phone and downloaded it to my laptop or vice versa, or something of that nature. I would say that on average I download every paid app 2 to 3 times.

Well said. The whole thing is fudged.

Speedy2
Jan 13, 2010, 02:23 PM
"Software piracy doesn't take anything away from person B, other than a highly undetermined potential profit."

Your words.



How exactly does that contradict your statement?
I'm putting the emphasis somewhere else, doesn't mean I deny the "potential profit" part.



This is true, but in the same way that stealing a candy bar and stealing a car are both theft, piracy is also. Kind of how chicken pox and shingles are both herpes; it's a class of crime, not a specific one...


Nope.

freddiecable
Jan 13, 2010, 02:23 PM
i'm glad to see i'm not the only one suprised by this. theoretically i understand that you can pirate. but why? 1 usd for a nice game...why pirate? and how? it's so tightly connected to itunes?

well - nonetheless - app store is a hit. maybe pirating is a reason for this? the iphone was hacked and had an inofficial app store before the official app store...i guess that was also a "sign" where apple should go. usually when there is a grassroot activity like this - there is a relevant market.

koobcamuk
Jan 13, 2010, 02:23 PM
Then why would you pirate it if you weren't going to buy it? Because you would only buy something you intended on using, right? So, theoretically, you have no real use for this app, you're just getting it cause you can.

How about - you have a use for the app but feel it's overpriced?

Take TomTom for example. £10 and I would have bought it. Millions more would have. £70 is a rip off.

So we ripped them off.

disconap
Jan 13, 2010, 02:23 PM
Unfortunately you have an IQ of room temperature. I'll leave it at that.

It was an A to B comparison; saying that prevalence makes something ok is a flawed argument. Why I have to explain this to you when you apparently have a much higher IQ is beyond me.

jlasoon
Jan 13, 2010, 02:24 PM
It's because it's teh internet.

It is NOT the same as stealing someone's car. Nowhere near as traumatic for one thing.

Stealing is technically depriving someone of their rightfully owned possession.

h4ck
Jan 13, 2010, 02:24 PM
not losing anything. they wouldn't have paid for it in the first place.

JQW
Jan 13, 2010, 02:24 PM
I read the full article and it just doesn't add up...

Estimated iPhones and iPod touches sold: 75,000,000
Estimated jailbroken iPhones/iPod touches: 7,500,000 (10% of total)
Estimated jailbroken who use pirated software: 3,000,000 (40% of jailbroken)
Estimated number of pirated apps downloaded: 1,530,000,000
Number of pirated apps on each jailbroken phone with pirated apps on them: 510
(1.53 billion apps divided by 3 million )

Really? Are these pirates actually loading 510 apps onto their iPhones/iPods?

No. The pirates are probably grabbing torrents containing hundreds of applications. I'm aware that the main problem with piracy on the Nintendo DS was the availability of torrents containing hundreds of games, so the same is probably also happening here.

koobcamuk
Jan 13, 2010, 02:24 PM
i'm glad to see i'm not the only one suprised by this. theoretically i understand that you can pirate. but why? 1 usd for a nice game...why pirate? and how? it's so tightly connected to itunes?

well - nonetheless - app store is a hit. maybe pirating is a reason for this? the iphone was hacked and had an inofficial app store before the official app store...i guess that was also a "sign" where apple should go. usually when there is a grassroot activity like this - there is a relevant market.

Pirate apps are not obtained through iTunes.

You download them through other sites and install them using installous etc when you're jailbroken.

I WAS the one
Jan 13, 2010, 02:24 PM
What are they talking about???

I didn't even know App Store piracy existed. This story seems a bit wild.

let me explain to you this very simple. There are a lots of webpages that tells you what to do in a step by step kind of way that let you fill out your iPod Touch or iPhone with everything you want from the iTunes Store. How do I know this? I send a prepaid app to my nephew and he call me back saying that his iPod Touch is full because he follows this instructions from the net, I ask him what page and he ended up saying a lot of names then I went to one he told me and there's a new pirate world out there that we all old school Mac users don't know about it. It's sad but I remember when I used to do wrong things with my performa 6300CD back in the day on a secret web comunity called Hotline ... 56k modem big files for free you just needed to wait a day or two. I regret that today. Today I bought everything I install on my Macs but nothing is impossible these days with this tech kidz now days... It's another world.

djrobsd
Jan 13, 2010, 02:25 PM
The author of this article is an idiot and clearly doesn't understand how iPhones work. As others have said, first you have to jailbreak the phone, then you have to go out and find the apps online to download (usually through torrent sites). Even still, I would argue the majority of people who jailbreak are doing it to gain tethering, cycorder, etc, not so they can download a bunch of crappy apps and load them onto their phone for free.

Ca$hflow
Jan 13, 2010, 02:25 PM
How can you lose money to piracy when most pirates wouldn't think twice about buying the product?

I agree with this statement

kresh
Jan 13, 2010, 02:25 PM
As much as I appreciate the civility of your argument, it is flawed. Sodomy is consensual, piracy is not.

I really do not think it is a matter of consensual agreement, but more a matter of societal mores. For whatever reason piracy does not seam to pull at some people's moral compass the way shoplifting does, and it appears the number of people grows tremendously every year.

I am concerned that eventually a tipping point will be reached where society has rejected the theft of intellectual property as a moral offense and regulated it to acceptable and appropriate behavior.

trustbyte
Jan 13, 2010, 02:25 PM
I read the full article and it just doesn't add up...
...
Estimated jailbroken iPhones/iPod touches: 7,500,000 (10% of total)
...
Really? Are these pirates actually loading 510 apps onto their iPhones/iPods?

i really doubt only 10% of all idevices are jailbroken, i'll say at least 40% are..

510 apps for a jailbroken device who has Categories?? piece of cake.

i had over 400 legit apps (paid and free) but the 10 page limit of my nonJB forced me to do a hard filtering..

koobcamuk
Jan 13, 2010, 02:26 PM
I have nowhere near 510 pirated apps.

More like 5.

disconap
Jan 13, 2010, 02:26 PM
How exactly does that contradict your statement?
I'm putting the emphasis somewhere else, doesn't mean I deny the "potential profit" part.

Your point is based on not costing a developer anything. If everyone pirates software, developers lose millions, people lose jobs, and future versions of the software don't get made.

Nope.

Care to elaborate?

AAPLaday
Jan 13, 2010, 02:26 PM
How about - you have a use for the app but feel it's overpriced?

Take TomTom for example. £10 and I would have bought it. Millions more would have. £70 is a rip off.

So we ripped them off.

If you don't feel that the software merits the price point then you don't have to buy it. If the App was sold in a box directly from the Apple Store would you just walk in, pick up the box and walk out without paying?

goobot
Jan 13, 2010, 02:26 PM
Piracy among the jailbreaking community is rampant. That is one of many reasons why I am now opposed to jailbreaking. The other reason is because jailbreaking destroys the security model leaving the iPhone vulnerable to malware.

I would rather see carrier customers pressure carriers in countries like Canada and the US to work with Apple to offer legal/official unlocking of iPhone after completion of a contract, sale of iPhones off contract and offer official unlocking to existing customers for a nominal fee.

I never installed pirated apps when I did jailbreak my previous iPhone (3G) but I can see how some people get tempted into going down that road after the jailbreak to unlock their phones.

I think Apple needs to work with carriers to offer unlocking without a jailbreak and also start banning IMEI's of jailbroken phones found to be running pirated apps.

this isnt xbox you cant just banned someone for a hacked phone. not to mention the fcc is for jailbreaking so apple who be is a mess. you can also just custom it every time so apple cant win.
yes im a jailbreaker ever since iphone number one. not to mention i can develop jailbroken apps not to great yet but can.


now you think jailbreak is just for piracy. um no i have things like overboard and pro switcher which are very handy which apple wont allow on the app store.

not to mention the app store is a rip off of the jailbreak. also if you if didnt know. next tons of apps it the app store where once in the cydia.

next all those app that where gotten by free where never going to be paid for or bought so they actually didnt loose anything . i dont use the jailbreak for free apps i use it for things not allowed in the app store by the way.


also im sure i have tonz of grammar and spelling mistakes but i need to go somewhere so ill fix them latter

Doju
Jan 13, 2010, 02:26 PM
I agree it's wrong, but by no means is it stealing.

Stealing: I go to a lot and take a car, drive away.

Piracy: I go to a lot, clone a car and drive away.

The difference? With stealing, one loses property. With piracy, you lose an object of infinite quantity that the person probably wasn't going to pay for anyway.

scottness
Jan 13, 2010, 02:27 PM
How about - you have a use for the app but feel it's overpriced?

Take TomTom for example. £10 and I would have bought it. Millions more would have. £70 is a rip off.

So we ripped them off.

That doesn't make it right. By a competitor's app, that makes it right.

--if a Lotus is too expensive (or a rip off), I'll buy the Honda. I don't steal the Lotus.

distortedloop
Jan 13, 2010, 02:28 PM
* Developer’s lost sales when pirates give bad reviews (as anyone who gets a free game is liable to do—it means they didn’t have really want it before they got it)


That's about the poorest anti-piracy argument I've heard.

First, you can't review a game (in the AppStore) unless you've purchased it. Apple doesn't allow non-owners to review apps any longer.

Second, with your logic, any reviewer of any product that got a free copy of the product for review purposes can't be trusted because since they didn't pay for it the are more liable to give a bad review because they didn't really want it before they got it. I guess I shouldn't trust David Pogue, or Andy Ihnatko or Walt Mossberg's reviews of any product with your logic.

NielsM
Jan 13, 2010, 02:28 PM
How have Apple "lost" money?
It's not as if they were given it and had it taken away.

How about this analogy for you?

You have a job where you are supposed to be paid $1000/week. Several weeks of the month you only get a check for $200 before taxes. Would you consider your wages were "lost", since they never were given to you? When you question your boss on it, they reply well, I didn't think your work was worth it 4 out of the 5 days, so we just took your work & didn't pay you for it.

So you complain about this to some colleagues. They argue you are charging too much for your wages & if you lowered it to $200/week, your bosses wouldn't cut money from your check. So you say, OK, I'll lower my rate to $200 a week. Over the next month, several weeks you were only paid $40/week. Why? Is it because you charge too much or because your boss is a thief?

koobcamuk
Jan 13, 2010, 02:29 PM
If you don't feel that the software merits the price point then you don't have to buy it. If the App was sold in a box directly from the Apple Store would you just walk in, pick up the box and walk out without paying?

No, because downloading something is far far easier to get away with than walking out of a shop without paying.

I also wouldnt do that, no.

The medium of the internet puts up a barrier to this "walking in and stealing" thing.

We just download and install - I didn't change any of the code to the app to allow it to run. Someone else did. Not my problem.

I would never have bought TomTom. Ever. I will buy a standalone unit in a month or two.

For free, I will install the app.

It's not like I download ever app this way.

TomTom can go jump - it's small devs like the guys that write "Papers" that I want to support.

Digital Skunk
Jan 13, 2010, 02:29 PM
You are a "pro developer kind of guy"...but yet you sit there and say its okay for them to lose money because of how much money there is to be made in the market. Wow buddy you sound just like our politicians. Oil execs make way too much money (they are successful) so you want to take their money right? Wow, communist much?

WHOA! THERE!

CONTEXT PAL!

I never said ANYTHING BOUT being super mega pro developer guy....

My statements ever since then have been strictly about PIRACY being THEFT.

I've stolen plenty of software from time to time, will still buy ONE SINGLE USER copy of iWork and Mac OSX to put on 10 machines.

When I steal though i won't sugar coat the hell out of it and call it infringing, or say that. "I am NOT REALLY STEALING since it's just 1's and 0's"

disconap
Jan 13, 2010, 02:30 PM
I really do not think it is a matter of consensual agreement, but more a matter of societal mores. For whatever reason piracy does not seam to pull at some people's moral compass the way shoplifting does, and it appears the number of people grows tremendously every year.

Absolutely agreed, I was just saying that sodomy is a mutually consensual act; sodomized rape is still illegal, after all. ;)

I am concerned that eventually a tipping point will be reached where society has rejected the theft of intellectual property as a moral offense and regulated it to acceptable and appropriate behavior.

This is possible, but I think that most people still buy and support the things/products/developers/artists/etc. that they love/use regularly/etc. Where I point again at the sodomy laws is that, until the developers/artists/producers/etc. WANT their product to be downloaded for free, piracy isn't mutually consensual.

Eddyisgreat
Jan 13, 2010, 02:31 PM
Mmmmm this article is premium roast BS.

Procuring Apps isn't the easiest thing in the world. Not saying its difficult for those in the know, but come on now. Half of the people here wern't even aware of the possibility of pirated apps.

So one camp (i.e. 99% of windows users) say Apple users are the dumbest on the planet, yet apparently THREE out of FOUR iPhone users have the abil..no..have the desire to pirate applications and have gone through the steps to make this a reality? Good Game. Best Statistics ever.

I know the "Dev Team" personally (well, a few members) and all this talk about Jailbreaking == piracy is idotic. Ballmer could come out and say that 100% of computers have the ability to utilize unauthorized software and have thus done so. :rolleyes: Jailbreaking has it's legitimate uses. Running pirated apps is a pain in the butt anyway; not sure why anyone would do it. Find some Apps that don't suck and keep them on your phone, how simple is that? I paid Twenty dollars for the iPhone version of Omnifocus when I could have just gotten the cracked .ipa and been done with it. Why didn't I? Well, A) Because it's a local Seattle outfit, and B) things tend to work better when you pay for them, considering all the hacked windows installations i've seen over the years. Updates are a breeze too. The only hacks I need to worry about is making sure iTunes doesn't update my eyetv app from 1.0 because it has the live-tv-over-3g easter egg :D

Vidd
Jan 13, 2010, 02:31 PM
Not intending to buy something is different from not wanting something. If you didn't want the program then why get it for free?
That's superfluous; you never stated if you were interested in those programs or not. You asked if downloading them would hurt anyone.

Then why would you pirate it if you weren't going to buy it? Because you would only buy something you intended on using, right? So, theoretically, you have no real use for this app, you're just getting it cause you can.
Your point being?
You suggest that if you would not pay for an application, then that necessarily means you would not have use for it. That's a obviously not always true. :)

finalcut
Jan 13, 2010, 02:31 PM
Piracy among the jailbreaking community is rampant. That is one of many reasons why I am now opposed to jailbreaking. The other reason is because jailbreaking destroys the security model leaving the iPhone vulnerable to malware.

I would rather see carrier customers pressure carriers in countries like Canada and the US to work with Apple to offer legal/official unlocking of iPhone after completion of a contract, sale of iPhones off contract and offer official unlocking to existing customers for a nominal fee.

I never installed pirated apps when I did jailbreak my previous iPhone (3G) but I can see how some people get tempted into going down that road after the jailbreak to unlock their phones.

I think Apple needs to work with carriers to offer unlocking without a jailbreak and also start banning IMEI's of jailbroken phones found to be running pirated apps.Don't forget those, like me, who JB their iphone only to have some options we don't have with an un-JB iphone.

1. hiding apple icons
2. custom themes

these are the only reason why I JB my iphone

koobcamuk
Jan 13, 2010, 02:31 PM
--if a Lotus is too expensive (or a rip off), I'll buy the Honda. I don't steal the Lotus.

How can you link car crime to app theft?

Really?

How?

I fail to see how they are a relevant comparison.

Just because I would shout and swear at someone (a form of abuse), doesn't mean I will start beating my girlfriend (another form of abuse) does it??

disconap
Jan 13, 2010, 02:33 PM
That's about the poorest anti-piracy argument I've heard.

First, you can't review a game (in the AppStore) unless you've purchased it. Apple doesn't allow non-owners to review apps any longer.

Second, with your logic, any reviewer of any product that got a free copy of the product for review purposes can't be trusted because since they didn't pay for it the are more liable to give a bad review because they didn't really want it before they got it. I guess I shouldn't trust David Pogue, or Andy Ihnatko or Walt Mossberg's reviews of any product with your logic.

Totally. Hate to break it to the OP, but almost EVERY REVIEWER ON THE PLANET gets their stuff free. That's sort of the point.

Vidd
Jan 13, 2010, 02:34 PM
How about this analogy for you?

You have a job where you are supposed to be paid $1000/week. Several weeks of the month you only get a check for $200 before taxes. Would you consider your wages were "lost", since they never were given to you? When you question your boss on it, they reply well, I didn't think your work was worth it 4 out of the 5 days, so we just took your work & didn't pay you for it.

So you complain about this to some colleagues. They argue you are charging too much for your wages & if you lowered it to $200/week, your bosses wouldn't cut money from your check. So you say, OK, I'll lower my rate to $200 a week. Over the next month, several weeks you were only paid $40/week. Why? Is it because you charge too much or because your boss is a thief?
That's a very poor analogy.
The boss agreed to pay $1000 but didn't pay the full amount.

Software pirates aren't agreeing to buy software at a set price then not paying it in full.

ThunderSkunk
Jan 13, 2010, 02:34 PM
"Cost" as in what they COULD have made if the apps were not pirated.

So what you're saying is, they COULD have made money on me not buying their app, if I had not gotten it for free. But because I got it for free, they can't.

Interesting.


And again, I do not pirate apps.

koobcamuk
Jan 13, 2010, 02:35 PM
I've stolen plenty of software from time to time, will still buy ONE SINGLE USER copy of iWork and Mac OSX to put on 10 machines.


I wonder who else does this?

I wonder how many people have a pirate version of Mac OSX?

I wonder how many people run Photoshop but haven't paid for it?

casik
Jan 13, 2010, 02:35 PM
It isn't perfect for reasons people already stated. Theft results in the loss of the costs incurred producing the product and lost profit (if you take it off the store shelf no one else can buy it, and it was very likely that someone would have). Piracy only results in a potential loss of profit (would the pirate have bought it?).

Piracy is its own can of worms and should be treated as such.

Dissagreed. Stealing is taking something that does not belong to you. If you didn't buy it, it doesn't belong to you. Simple as that.

steal (from dictionary.com)
–verb (used with object) 1. to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right

kresh
Jan 13, 2010, 02:35 PM
Absolutely agreed, I was just saying that sodomy is a mutually consensual act; sodomized rape is still illegal, after all. ;)


I see what you are saying. I apologize, I was using sodomy as an example of a society reversing directions, because the now legal sodomy was consensual even when it was then illegal. I guess I could have used confiscatory taxation as a better example I suppose. :)

jo0
Jan 13, 2010, 02:35 PM
Dear pirates,
Don't try to justify it. You're stealing. Just stop.

Love,
Me

i'm with you on this one. as a dev and a user its a little amature.

Vulpinemac
Jan 13, 2010, 02:37 PM
What has this to do with the question stealing yes/no?
I never said that piracy has no effect on the revenue of the software developer, quite the opposite.

Piracy is a crime, but it's not the same as theft. You can spread a pirated software a million times and cause much more damage than with a simple theft of property. On the other hand, by illegally downloading Photoshop you don't automatically create a loss of $800 for Adobe.

Maybe you should look up the definition of Piracy, you obviously don't know what it means. Historically, pirates were seafaring people who boarded other ships at sea and stole anything and everything of any value from that ship, quite often right off the living or dead bodies of their victims. It's not only theft, but in historical terms, it included murder, vandalism and destruction of private property. That form of piracy is even now being used off the coast of Africa and nearly every major seafaring power in the world is working to stop the pirates themselves. The problem is, the only way you can prove someone is a pirate is to catch them in the act or with the stolen goods on their persons. Once these guys get to shore (or within their home country's sea boundary) they can't be arrested without going through that country's legal system, which may or may not be actively supporting them through payoffs or other reasons.

One official definition of a pirate is: • a person who appropriates or reproduces the work of another for profit without permission, usually in contravention of patent or copyright : [with adj. ] software pirates. (©Apple Dictionary.)

By this definition, piracy is not merely the stealing of software/IP, but includes the intent if not the actuality of selling the stolen IP for profit, thus effectively stealing twice from the creator as well as from their customers.

Again, Piracy is theft. It is nothing less than theft on a grand scale. This alone negates every one of your arguments.

hanpa
Jan 13, 2010, 02:37 PM
Apple can easily remove the most common reasons for jailbreaking by:
- Allowing apps to execute in the background (backgrounder)
- Removing ridiculous 3g cellular restrictions (3g unrestrictor)
- Updating the user interface, allowing more home screens, menu system for those with many apps etc.

Since many answers to this thread indicates that piracy using jailbreaking is not known by all users, the result is that jailbreaking will increase (unless Apple does something about the problems described above).

jlasoon
Jan 13, 2010, 02:38 PM
How can you link car crime to app theft?

Really?

How?

I fail to see how they are a relevant comparison.

Just because I would shout and swear at someone (a form of abuse), doesn't mean I will start beating my girlfriend (another form of abuse) does it??

They've been listening to the MPAA for too long. NO ONE IS BEING DEPRIVED OF ANYTHING. Technically and legally it cannot be stealing.

ShiftyPig
Jan 13, 2010, 02:39 PM
They've been listening to the MPAA for too long. NO ONE IS BEING DEPRIVED OF ANYTHING. Technically and legally it cannot be stealing.

But you aren't charged with theft, you're violating the copyright. It's just that simpletons break it down to "stealing" apps.

goobot
Jan 13, 2010, 02:39 PM
you cant loose something you never had not to mention they wouldn't have ever of bought it any way

disconap
Jan 13, 2010, 02:41 PM
I see what you are saying. I apologize, I was using sodomy as an example of a society reversing directions, because the now legal sodomy was consensual even when it was then illegal. I guess I could have used confiscatory taxation as a better example I suppose. :)

Hey, no worries. And not to be contrary for the sake of being contrary, but I can see several arguments for confiscatory taxation; for example, taxes pay for fire department/police/etc. Wealthy people have, in dollar value, a lot more to lose in a fire, and are more likely to be a target of theft. So, much like insurance, taxation is in that respect representative.

Not saying I agree with the above, again just being contrary. ;)

guzhogi
Jan 13, 2010, 02:42 PM
They've been listening to the MPAA for too long. NO ONE IS BEING DEPRIVED OF ANYTHING. Technically and legally it cannot be stealing.

If I understand it correctly, it IS stealing. The creators of pirated apps are being deprived of any income they would normally receive from legally purchased copies.

AAPLaday
Jan 13, 2010, 02:42 PM
That's superfluous; you never stated if you were interested in those programs or not. You asked if downloading them would hurt anyone.

Well if its doesn't hurt the devs then why not make all the apps free? Along with any software program?

illy123
Jan 13, 2010, 02:42 PM
Cost? I would love to see an itemized detail of this cost. Show me where it has cost anyone anything.

Not making money, is not the same as being cost it.

Get your language right.


And no, I don't pirate apps.

Actually the article is correct. Accountants only care about the explicit cost (which is useful when calculating taxes) however Economists consider both the explicit and the implicit costs (the opportunity cost). E.g. you have a plot of land; the economic cost is how much you could be renting it out for (the opportunity cost).

ELScorcho9
Jan 13, 2010, 02:42 PM
How about - you have a use for the app but feel it's overpriced?

Take TomTom for example. £10 and I would have bought it. Millions more would have. £70 is a rip off.

So we ripped them off.


By that logic, I should just go take that Ferrari Enzo at the dealership because it's overpriced, in my opinion. I should just take whatever I think is too much because they're ripping me off. Makes sense.....

koobcamuk
Jan 13, 2010, 02:42 PM
They've been listening to the MPAA for too long. NO ONE IS BEING DEPRIVED OF ANYTHING. Technically and legally it cannot be stealing.

But you aren't charged with theft, you're violating the copyright. It's just that simpletons break it down to "stealing" apps.

Yeh, I know. It seems many people are confusing this with the idea that people "resell" the apps.

It's like with DVDs. You can buy some DVDs from the Chinese Market. No way are they legit! £5 for 10 DVDs? Without cases!

They are making money from Paramount etc...

However, I am not making any more with any of my apps. If I intend to make money, of course I would buy it. And that goes for the ridiculously expensive photoshop.

wizard
Jan 13, 2010, 02:42 PM
..........

Also many people unlock their phone because they want to put in a different sim card when they are going abroad on a holiday. Major issue in Europe. You cross a border using your phone, your phone bill will skyrocket.

It isn't just Europe, anybody that travels for business or pleasure has to deal with this issue. Personally I don't live far from the Canadian border and could easily incur those incredibly high fees. Travel to the Caribbean, Brazil or Ireland and you can come back to the US with a bill larger than you plane ticket for a few calls, much less data usage.

If there is anything on this planet that would keep me from buying another iPhone it is the inability to swap sim cards as the need arrises. The problem here is that I'd rather have an Apple solution here as opposed to a Jailbreak/Unlock. Not because of piracy but in this case stability. I like to keep software up to date on all my hardware iPhone included and the Jailbreak/Unlock screws with that.

By the way the one big feature I just love about app store is the single point for updating everything installed on my iPhone.

Dave

jlasoon
Jan 13, 2010, 02:43 PM
But you aren't charged with theft, you're violating the copyright. It's just that simpletons break it down to "stealing" apps.

Exactly, it comes down to copyright infringement. Even at that, the law is scrupulous. Prime example would be the RedBox at your local Wal-Mart.

HaXoR7Om
Jan 13, 2010, 02:43 PM
Put yourselves in the developers shoes, They have just been developing an application using their expertise in their chosen programming language wrote hundreds of lines of code used multiple memory management techniques and insured that their program is efficient and bug free. They then think "Wow I enjoyed that, maybe I can make some money out of what I've made" How would you feel if what had taken you months to make was obtained by someone for free in mere seconds?

disconap
Jan 13, 2010, 02:44 PM
They've been listening to the MPAA for too long. NO ONE IS BEING DEPRIVED OF ANYTHING. Technically and legally it cannot be stealing.

Um, no.

The stealing argument has already been made on this page (or page 9, if this ends up on page 10 or later) as well as several times over on the previous ones. Being deprived of potential income is being deprived of something. And the MPAA, though a bunch of self-righteous rich idiots, aren't wrong just because they are a bunch of self-righteous rich idiots.

lannister80
Jan 13, 2010, 02:44 PM
If I understand it correctly, it IS stealing. The creators of pirated apps are being deprived of any income they would normally receive from legally purchased copies.
Nope. You have no way - NO way - to prove that any of those freely-downloaded copies would ever have been purchased in the first place. You can't be deprived of theoretical income.

How many teenagers that downloaded the entire Adobe CS4 suite would have ever, EVER paid for it? 0.000001% or so.

Eso
Jan 13, 2010, 02:45 PM
I won't lash out at anyone, I just don't get how stealing became so generally accepted over such a short amount of time.

Traditionally, when you steal something, you deprive another from owning it.

That's not the case with digital content, however, which can be duplicated. There's a completely different psychology associated with it. Digital copies are an infinite resource which naturally results in a zero price point. From a standpoint of pure market economics, there's no stealing involved.

ThunderSkunk
Jan 13, 2010, 02:45 PM
The problem is that with this mindset, the developers who created the software aren't losing any money either, despite however many copies of the app are stolen. Who cares that they spent time (which costs money), effort (which costs money) and money (which costs money) to create and submit that app to the App Store. Nope, they're just not making any money, right?

No, not at all, you're talking about the cost of writing an app. Not the cost of people who didn't buy it from you copying it. There is no cost of people copying it, unless some of those people would have paid for it, and then decided not to when they realized they could get it for free. And since there is no way to know what millions of individuals each think about what any given app offers for the price, and whether that constitutes a good deal they would have paid money for, you are left with conjecture. Which reduces this article and its numbers to a slimy fabrication at best.

The only effect of people who wouldn't buy your app copying it to experiment with, test out, full-on use, or make babies with, is that it upsets the developer to think that just maybe that person would have paid for it.

And that's as good as it gets.

koobcamuk
Jan 13, 2010, 02:45 PM
By that logic, I should just go take that Ferrari Enzo at the dealership because it's overpriced, in my opinion. I should just take whatever I think is too much because they're ripping me off. Makes sense.....

Just because it's expensive does not mean that I will try to take it.

I can afford TomTom but it would be a waste of money without the dock anyway.

These companies take the piss with their prices.

Radiohead launched a free album where people donated money if they wanted - lots of people paid. This site, has people donating to it, big time.

What I am saying is, I wouldn't pirate a $1 app. I wouldn't download it.

I would pirate a $99 app unless it did something life changing.

mccldwll
Jan 13, 2010, 02:46 PM
Relax. The story is another steaming pile from 24/7. Don't believe everything you read.

disconap
Jan 13, 2010, 02:46 PM
Put yourselves in the developers shoes, They have just been developing an application using their expertise in their chosen programming language wrote hundreds of lines of code used multiple memory management techniques and insured that their program is efficient and bug free. They then think "Wow I enjoyed that, maybe I can make some money out of what I've made" How would you feel if what had taken you months to make was obtained by someone for free in mere seconds?

Totally. One of my best friends is in a band and he hears from people ALL THE TIME "I love your band, I got the album on Limewire/bittorrent/etc". Which is great and all, but then they ask why the band doesn't tour more, and his answer is "you got the album on Limewire/bittorrent/etc., so we have no money for gas".

Not a perfect example, and my friend is bitter, but hardly a moot point.

jlasoon
Jan 13, 2010, 02:46 PM
Um, no.

The stealing argument has already been made on this page (or page 9, if this ends up on page 10 or later) as well as several times over on the previous ones. Being deprived of potential income is being deprived of something. And the MPAA, though a bunch of self-righteous rich idiots, aren't wrong just because they are a bunch of self-righteous rich idiots.

And what have the courts in America said?

koobcamuk
Jan 13, 2010, 02:46 PM
Traditionally, when you steal something, you deprive another from owning it.

That's not the case with digital content, however, which can be duplicated. There's a completely different psychology associated with it. Digital copies are an infinite resource which naturally results in a zero price point. From a standpoint of pure market economics, there's no stealing involved.

THANK YOU

NSK123
Jan 13, 2010, 02:47 PM
wow I can't believe that some people don't know how easy it is to pirate apps on the Iphone... It's easy as hell really..
Anyways the numbers are bogus, there's no way they would be able to calculate how much pirated apps "would be" worth is to the developers.
The app store is kinda like the stock market, if you get too greedy you loose. I buy apps sometimes but I also pirate them. I once bought a VNC app for $20 which was worth the money. Later when Navigon Europe came out I wanted that.. but the price.. $150! in my country's app store. There is no way in hell that I would EVER pay that amount for a piece of software..

I mean hell? you can get a standalone gps for that kinda money.
Yeah I stole the app.. so what? I wouldn't have bought it anyway.. A fair price would have been $50 and not 150.. That's called greed.. the Free Market rules the world, if you can't compete fairly then don't come whining when people aren't buying your overpriced underdeveloped app.

There is so many 0.99cent apps on the appstore and most of them are crap.. There was countless of times where I would buy an app and then afterwards realize that I just pissed away a dollar.. When that happens 10 times in a row to you then you'll get angry.

If the developers would just take their time and make Good Quality Apps then people will buy their apps.. It's much better than floading the appstore with stupid fart apps and then complain online about how people are "stealing" your useless app.

Just because you put a price tag on it doesn't mean that it's actually worth THAT much.. get it?

disconap
Jan 13, 2010, 02:47 PM
Nope. You have no way - NO way - to prove that any of those freely-downloaded copies would ever have been purchased in the first place. You can't be deprived of theoretical income.

How many teenagers that downloaded the entire Adobe CS4 suite would have ever, EVER paid for it? 0.000001% or so.


You have no way to prove that someone who would steal a car would ever buy one...

TuffLuffJimmy
Jan 13, 2010, 02:47 PM
THANK YOU
Other than stealing intellectual property, but we all know how much *some* people care about their own intellect. ;)

wizard
Jan 13, 2010, 02:48 PM
They've been listening to the MPAA for too long. NO ONE IS BEING DEPRIVED OF ANYTHING. Technically and legally it cannot be stealing.

What an idiot. Each and every pirated app is a loss of income to the developer. You can't rationally argue otherwise. Beside it is legally stealing, people do get prosecuted for it.

Dave

koobcamuk
Jan 13, 2010, 02:48 PM
Totally. One of my best friends is in a band and he hears from people ALL THE TIME "I love your band, I got the album on Limewire/bittorrent/etc". Which is great and all, but then they ask why the band doesn't tour more, and his answer is "you got the album on Limewire/bittorrent/etc., so we have no money for gas".

It sounds like his followers are gobby retards, really. I am not going to email Adobe and say "I LOVE photoshop. I got it on BitTorrent."

cmaier
Jan 13, 2010, 02:49 PM
Just because it's expensive does not mean that I will try to take it.

I can afford TomTom but it would be a waste of money without the dock anyway.

These companies take the piss with their prices.

Radiohead launched a free album where people donated money if they wanted - lots of people paid. This site, has people donating to it, big time.

What I am saying is, I wouldn't pirate a $1 app. I wouldn't download it.

I would pirate a $99 app unless it did something life changing.

Why do you think that's okay? do you think you're entitled to it just because you can't afford to buy it or because you think it's not worth the price (to you?) What you're saying is that you would only pay for something if it provides sufficient value to you for the price charged. Of course that's fine - that's the basis of the free market. However, you then go one further and say that if you don't want to buy it because it delivers insufficient value to you, you'll steal it.

koobcamuk
Jan 13, 2010, 02:49 PM
Other than stealing intellectual property, but we all know how much *some* people care about their own intellect. ;)

Judging by the average intellect of this site, I don't worry about it too much.

If they were that smart, they would add protection to the apps - I know that IM+ does.

ShiftyPig
Jan 13, 2010, 02:49 PM
Discussions like this are great - there's an obvious right answer, but the law makes you take a convoluted route to reach that end.

It's like buying software, you get it home and stick the CD in, read the SLA before you install it and decide that you don't agree to the terms. You should be entitled to return it, but the store won't take it because it's opened. Who wins?

The law - singlehandedly keeping lawyers employed since 34 BC.

disconap
Jan 13, 2010, 02:49 PM
And what have the courts in America said?

Courts don't dictate morality. But they have again and again restated that theft of intellectual property is theft, and often heaved hefty fines (torrentspy's case, for example).

lannister80
Jan 13, 2010, 02:49 PM
You have no way to prove that someone who would steal a car would ever buy one...
Yes, but stealing a car deprives the owner of a car. If someone can make a perfect copy of your car for free...

Eddyisgreat
Jan 13, 2010, 02:50 PM
It sounds like his followers are gobby retards, really. I am not going to email Adobe and say "I LOVE photoshop. I got it on BitTorrent."

ADBE wouldn't care either way. If they did they'd treat you like a Criminal ala pro tools and have twenty different dongles for every tool or those idiotic RIP systems that I love to use. Just don't do that in a corporate setting where they will expend the resources to fine :)

disconap
Jan 13, 2010, 02:50 PM
Yes, but stealing a car deprives the owner of a car. If someone can make a perfect copy of your car for free...

Perhaps. But stealing a car from a car lot?

TuffLuffJimmy
Jan 13, 2010, 02:50 PM
Judging by the average intellect of this site, I don't worry about it too much.

If they were that smart, they would add protection to the apps - I know that IM+ does.
thanks for helping me prove a point. :rolleyes:

NielsM
Jan 13, 2010, 02:50 PM
That's a very poor analogy.
The boss agreed to pay $1000 but didn't pay the full amount.

Software pirates aren't agreeing to buy software at a set price then not paying it in full.

How is that any different? The price of the product is the contract to pay an amount in exchange for the work.

Pirates are arguing that a given unit of work isn't worth the amount charged, so they simply take the work without paying, breaking the contract. In the analogy, the boss did exactly the same thing.

disconap
Jan 13, 2010, 02:51 PM
It sounds like his followers are gobby retards, really. I am not going to email Adobe and say "I LOVE photoshop. I got it on BitTorrent."

HAHAHA, yeah. Like I said, not a perfect analogy...

lannister80
Jan 13, 2010, 02:51 PM
Perhaps. But stealing a car from a car lot?
Again, if it's a copy, you're not depriving anyone of anything.

koobcamuk
Jan 13, 2010, 02:51 PM
Why do you think that's okay? do you think you're entitled to it just because you can't afford to buy it or because you think it's not worth the price (to you?) What you're saying is that you would only pay for something if it provides sufficient value to you for the price charged. Of course that's fine - that's the basis of the free market. However, you then go one further and say that if you don't want to buy it because it delivers insufficient value to you, you'll steal it.

If I steal a car... it's gone. That's it. Someone else lost a car.

If I duplicate an app - everyone else still has their original app.

Thus, I sleep soundly at night knowing that I didn't hurt anyone and I wouldn't have taken the app from someone's computer if it was their only copy and I couldn't duplicate it.

cmaier
Jan 13, 2010, 02:51 PM
Just because you put a price tag on it doesn't mean that it's actually worth THAT much.. get it?

True, but it IS worth that much if people will pay for it. And the fact that it isn't worth that much to you is not justification for plain old thievery.

jlasoon
Jan 13, 2010, 02:51 PM
What an idiot. Each and every pirated app is a loss of income to the developer. You can't rationally argue otherwise. Beside it is legally stealing, people do get prosecuted for it.

Dave

Those who get prosecuted usually benefit from this so-called theft. Most aren't. Do you honestly believe that everyone who downloads something through irregular means would have purchased the product in the first place?

Vidd
Jan 13, 2010, 02:52 PM
Well if its doesn't hurt the devs then why not make all the apps free? Along with any software program?
Is this a strawman argument yet? :) It certainly seems you're trying to misrepresent what I've said.
I said downloading an application, when you had no intention of paying for it, hurts no one.

koobcamuk
Jan 13, 2010, 02:52 PM
thanks for helping me prove a point. :rolleyes:

Ha, you're welcome. :P

I feel like arguing tonight.

wizard
Jan 13, 2010, 02:56 PM
THANK YOU

I hope you have the good fortune to run into a bitter developer some time soon. Maybe he can explain to you over a beer or two just what it is like to have your efforts stolen by the sleaze in the community. I'm sure if the beer doesn't work he will likely try other avenues to clear your mind or put it to rest.


Dave

petedskier
Jan 13, 2010, 02:56 PM
If Apple had to offer refunds for failed apps, it would be interesting to see if refunds were greater than piracy. The more you have to pay with no refund in sight, the more anxious I become. There are a lot of reviews that end with, "I want a refund."

HaXoR7Om
Jan 13, 2010, 02:56 PM
Totally. One of my best friends is in a band and he hears from people ALL THE TIME "I love your band, I got the album on Limewire/bittorrent/etc". Which is great and all, but then they ask why the band doesn't tour more, and his answer is "you got the album on Limewire/bittorrent/etc., so we have no money for gas".

Not a perfect example, and my friend is bitter, but hardly a moot point.

yeah as a programmer I know how frustrating yet rewarding it is if you put in the effort and if someone steals the application that you've made I imagine would be extremely upsetting. Limewire and bittorent are not in themselves illegal it's the content on them that is. They are a great source to download free open source apps and maybe some free wallpapers.

paradox00
Jan 13, 2010, 02:57 PM
You're suggesting that it isn't stealing because the thief perhaps would not have bought it anyway?

_worst_logic_ever_

I believe I said "Piracy is its own can of worms and should be dealt with as such". Lumping it in with theft and suggesting the same punishment as theft is not the proper way to approach it at all.

Growing up I had little interest in music, and didn't gain an interest until a friend allowed me to copy all his music. From there I developed my own interests through torrents while in university. Now that I have a real job, all my new music is purchased. What did the music industry lose from me being a pirate? Nothing. What did they gain? A customer.

I'm not alone either. An Industry Canada (I'm Canadian eh?) study found that music pirates were also the largest purchasers of music. Of course there are those who refuse to pay on principle, but I'm not advocating that piracy is morally correct anyway, just that it needs to be handled differently.

I could be also considered a pirate for downloaded fansubs of anime as they are aired in Japan, but the shows aren't available here and I do purchase what I like when it comes available here (although ridiculous costs temper my enthusiasm).

The way I see it, piracy is a double edged sword. It can be both detrimental to profits and expand a customer base. If you focus solely on the negative aspects you can't take advantage of the positive aspects, or even add them to your business model. Piracy has proven the case for torrents as a distribution method, why don't more companies make use of them (with a private tracker if needed) to cut down on server costs? If so many more people will consume your content for free, why not try and take advantage of that? The most obvious option would be advertising (hulu is a start, of course I don't have access being in Canada).

As long as people shun piracy and write it off as common theft, it will continue to persist and many opportunities will be missed. Apple has learned one of the most basic reasons behind piracy. Convenience. If you make your content easier to find and acquire than free pirated content, there are many that will pay for it. Why else is iTunes successful? Or the App store? The piracy numbers aside, people are paying for things that they never would have before the iPhone. It's so simple: go to the app store, click buy and enter your password. Done and done. Making it harder to obtain paid content, crippling it with DRM, etc, etc in many ways encourages piracy. But many companies do that because they view piracy as theft.

Piracy is its own can of worms... and you can only effectively deal with it if you look at exactly what it is and why it happens. Thinking of it as theft doesn't allow you to do that.

/end rant

miles01110
Jan 13, 2010, 02:58 PM
Oh good, another DRM vs. "Pirating doesn't hurt anyone" argument. :rolleyes:

Honestly, if devs spent a little more time and thought of some innovative ways to prevent piracy I'm sure they could do it. Unfortunately they're focused more on getting the app to the marketplace ASAP before someone else takes their idea. It's sort of a self-defeating cycle.

kresh
Jan 13, 2010, 02:58 PM
Wealthy people have, in dollar value, a lot more to lose in a fire, and are more likely to be a target of theft. So, much like insurance, taxation is in that respect representative.

Not saying I agree with the above, again just being contrary. ;)

hehe Sorry I can't resist, so since they pay proportionally more they can expect proportionately better service too? :eek:

back on topic: I was just talking as the thread went along, but I am more convinced than ever that the idea of IP is going to fall, just by reading the posts here. :rolleyes:

lannister80
Jan 13, 2010, 02:59 PM
I hope you have the good fortune to run into a bitter developer some time soon. Maybe he can explain to you over a beer or two just what it is like to have your efforts stolen by the sleaze in the community.
Sounds like a good reason not to go into app development. Welcome to real life; enjoy your stay!

ShiftyPig
Jan 13, 2010, 02:59 PM
What an idiot. Each and every pirated app is a loss of income to the developer. You can't rationally argue otherwise. Beside it is legally stealing, people do get prosecuted for it.

Dave

#1, calm down with the flaming. You're throwing up death blossoms.

#2, people get prosecuted for copyright infringement. There is a difference.

AAPLaday
Jan 13, 2010, 02:59 PM
Is this a strawman argument yet? :) It certainly seems you're trying to misrepresent what I've said.
I said downloading an application, when you had no intention of paying for it, hurts no one.

So then if everyone who upgraded to Leopard from Tiger had downloaded it illegally because they had no intention to pay for it , would it hurt Apple?

koobcamuk
Jan 13, 2010, 03:00 PM
I hope you have the good fortune to run into a bitter developer some time soon. Maybe he can explain to you over a beer or two just what it is like to have your efforts stolen by the sleaze in the community. I'm sure if the beer doesn't work he will likely try other avenues to clear your mind or put it to rest.

I'd like to see someone try, Dave. I am bigger than your average geek. :P

I am also dev by the way. The income I get is greatly received - lots of people might pirate my app but that's up to them - I figure they wouldn't have bought it anyway.

ThunderSkunk
Jan 13, 2010, 03:01 PM
Actually the article is correct. Accountants only care about the explicit cost (which is useful when calculating taxes) however Economists consider both the explicit and the implicit costs (the opportunity cost). E.g. you have a plot of land; the economic cost is how much you could be renting it out for (the opportunity cost).

Well then, like I said, I would love to see them try to calculate the unknowable potential of how many people who would not pay for the apps they pirated, would have paid if they had not pirated the app, (which they did). Aside from arbitrarily picking a percentage to multiply by several billion to yield an astronomical number that sounds good in a headline, that is.

If developers are upset about pirated apps, let me calculate how many more apps they'd sell if Apple and their suppliers would get off their lazy butts and make 100x as many iPhones every year. Apple is costing Developers billions! Not to mention how many people are donating money to charities which they'd otherwise spend on precious apps! Not to mention, global warming! Not to mention chevrolet not producing electric cars! God, think of the developers! All the unknown impacts on sales that never were! The whole world is conspiring against them.

You make a product, you put it out there. It's gonna get copied, knocked off in china, pirated, imitated, and eventually you're gonna fall off the back. You make the sales you can, work to provide a service that keeps your paid customers happy, and you work on your next big thing. Welcome to business, Developers. You're in the same boat the rest of us.

But the app store needs a trial process.


...and again, I personally do not pirate apps.

MacFly123
Jan 13, 2010, 03:02 PM
WHERE and HOW are the apps being pirated??? I don't know of anyone doing this, or even knowing how to, myself included! :confused:

wizard
Jan 13, 2010, 03:02 PM
Is this a strawman argument yet? :) It certainly seems you're trying to misrepresent what I've said.
I said downloading an application, when you had no intention of paying for it, hurts no one.

That is like saying walking out of a store without paying for your Snickers bar hurts no one because you didn't intend to pay for it. You can construct what every type of argument you want but you can't beat the fact that you have take revenue from the developer. Revenue that the developer needs to pay for his business, his lifestyle, and Apples cut to run the servers and maintain the store.


Dave

lannister80
Jan 13, 2010, 03:02 PM
What an idiot. Each and every pirated app is a loss of income to the developer. You can't rationally argue otherwise. Beside it is legally stealing, people do get prosecuted for it.

Dave
You can get sued over it, not prosecuted over it (unless you're reselling it, or you have a congressman in your pocket to make videotaping in a movie theater a Federal crime, but I digress...).

Copyright infringement is a civil matter, not a criminal one.