Obama administration to allow Haitians in US illegally to remain

[Full of Win]

...and the invasion continues.

If they are here illegally, seize them and put then in JAIL.

Me> :mad:

[IntheNet]

...and the invasion continues.

;)

Do they get complimentary membership in the Democrat Party too?

[NathanMuir]

Link and/or source?

If this is the case I will be extremely pissed. This is more than just a simple immigration concern but a national security concern as well.

[NathanMuir]

;)

Do they get complimentary membership in the Democrat Party too?

Of course.

[NT1440]

;)

Do they get complimentary membership in the Democrat Party too?
Why is it that you refuse to use proper terms? Do you honestly think you're clever?

[dukebound85]

remain indefinitely?

i support temporary

any links?

[Sky Blue]

Temporarily is fine.

article below.

[NathanMuir]

Temporarily is fine.

Edit:

here's a link, nice of the Op to provide accurate information, as usual.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/florida/AP/story/1427161.html

Good, if they want to work send them back to work in Haiti, not here.

[abijnk]

Link (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_HAITI_US_IMMIGRATION?SITE=PASCR&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT)


WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Obama administration says it will allow Haitians already in the U.S. illegally to remain because of this week's catastrophic earthquake.

Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano granted the temporary protected status on Friday.

The protection is only available to Haitians already in the country as of last Tuesday.

On Wednesday, Napolitano temporarily halted deportations of Haitians, even those already in detention.

Temporary protected status is granted to foreigners who may not be able to return safely to their country because of a natural disaster, armed conflict or other reasons.

maybe it's because this is what makes sense? What else are you supposed to do?

"Hey, looks, I know we are having a hard time even just landing planes with aid supplies, but I really need you to halt your rescue efforts and figure out how to land this plane because we need to drop off all the people who came to the U.S. illegally in their home country where they won't have little chance of finding shelter, food and water. M'kay?"

Uh, no...

The admin. didn't grant them amnesty, they are just doing what is logical.

[NT1440]

Good, if they want to work send them back to work in Haiti, not here.
How do you propose getting them there Sherlock? :rolleyes:

[bobber205]

Let them stay as long as they need to (within reasonable limits of course).

Why the OP fails to see any gray area in this situation is very worrying.

They are black, not devils. If Haiti was a country of cute white blonde girls, Fox news and the extreme right conservatives would be all over it (coverage etc).

[abijnk]

Let them stay as long as they need to (within reasonable limits of course).

Why the OP fails to see any gray area in this situation is very worrying.

They are black, not devils. If Haiti was a country of cute white blonde girls, Fox news and the extreme right conservatives would be all over it (coverage etc).

That's out of line. Illegal is illegal, and conservatives have always taken hard stances against illegal immigration, regardless of race. You comment is out in left field (pun intended).

[NathanMuir]

How do you propose getting them there Sherlock? :rolleyes:

Stick them on one of the many planes or ships leaving the US as we type.

[skunk]

If this is the case I will be extremely pissed. This is more than just a simple immigration concern but a national security concern as well.It's so dangerous, you must be terrified. Not only are they probably poisoning your lawn, they are also undoubtedly practising voodoo on your women.

[abijnk]

Stick them on one of the many planes or ships leaving the US as we type.

That is incredibly irrational and you know it.

[dukebound85]

They are black, not devils. If Haiti was a country of cute white blonde girls, Fox news and the extreme right conservatives would be all over it (coverage etc).

Whoa, like to make outrageous claims huh?:rolleyes:

[yg17]

Stick them on one of the many planes or ships leaving the US as we type.

Yes, airspace, fuel and space on the ground at the airport is at a premium, as well as food, water and shelter so let's take up valuable cargo space in the plane so we can fly some Haitians back home and add some more people to feed with the already strained relief supplies. :rolleyes: Got any other great ideas?

[leekohler]

It's a temporary situation. What's the big deal? It makes sense.

What is wrong with you people? I'm serious- what has happened in your lives to make you such angry, spiteful human beings?

[Rt&Dzine]

Why is it that you refuse to use proper terms? Do you honestly think you're clever?

Just ignore it. It's a form of passive-aggression.

[bobber205]

That's out of line. Illegal is illegal, and conservatives have always taken hard stances against illegal immigration, regardless of race. You comment is out in left field (pun intended).

Sorry for the comment.

I was meaning to make a comment on the relative attention be paid to the country by some conservatives based on race. It's the same old saying that when a small black child goes missing no ones cares in the media but a white blonde girls goes missing and it's treated (sadly) as a much bigger deal.

[skunk]

What is wrong with you people?They are just frightened. Don't make it worse by criticising them for their perfectly understandable sociopathic tendencies.

[abijnk]

Sorry for the comment.

I was meaning to make a comment on the relative attention be paid to the country by some conservatives based on race. It's the same old saying that when a small black child goes missing no ones cares in the media but a white blonde girls goes missing and it's treated (sadly) as a much bigger deal.

It doesn't need to be about race at all. That was my point.

[ucfgrad93]

I also think they should be allowed to stay temporarily, I'd say no longer than a year. After that, the government should go back to whatever policy they were using before the earthquake. Sending them back right now would only compound the problem in Haiti.

[leekohler]

They are just frightened. Don't make it worse by criticising them for their perfectly understandable sociopathic tendencies.

I'm calling it like I see it. I have never seen so much hatred and bile spewed as I have since this earthquake happened. It makes me sick.

I am very much against illegal immigration, but this is just plain disgusting.

I also think they should be allowed to stay temporarily, I'd say no longer than a year. After that, the government should go back to whatever policy they were using before the earthquake. Sending them back right now would only compound the problem in Haiti.

It's already been established that this is temporary. Unfortunately, the OP could not be bothered to research that fact.

[Queso]

Just when you think the right-wing can't stoop any lower. I bet they're dancing in the streets thinking of all those Haitians dying. That'll teach them for being poor, eh? :rolleyes:

[Ugg]

The admin. didn't grant them amnesty, they are just doing what is logical.

Logic and common sense have no place in the Republican party.

[dukebound85]

Just when you think the right-wing can't stoop any lower. I bet they're dancing in the streets thinking of all those Haitians dying. That'll teach them for being poor, eh? :rolleyes:

Logic and common sense have no place in the Republican party.

Seriously, saying nonsense like this makes you guys just as bad

Way to lump all conservatives

[Queso]

Seriously, saying nonsense like this makes you guys just as bad

Way to lump all conservatives
The people I'm referring to wouldn't consider you a conservative. How you can sit back and let these whackjobs take over your media and party is beyond me.

[flopticalcube]

It's so dangerous, you must be terrified. Not only are they probably poisoning your lawn, they are also undoubtedly practising voodoo on your women.
Ohh! I'll get my camera...

[leekohler]

The people I'm referring to wouldn't consider you a conservative. How you can sit back and let these whackjobs take over your media and party is beyond me.

Exactly. Duke- you guys need to stand up to them and kick their butts out.

[rdowns]

Just when you think the right-wing can't stoop any lower. I bet they're dancing in the streets thinking of all those Haitians dying. That'll teach them for being poor, eh? :rolleyes:

Don't forget black.

At least we'll get a little peace and quiet as he's IntheTime-Out

[flopticalcube]

Whatever happened to:

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

or do they require a science-based bachelor degree as well to get in now?

[skunk]

Whatever happened?They misread it as "I lift my leg beside the golden door".

[flopticalcube]

They misread it as "I lift my leg beside the golden door".
Lou Reed's "Statue of Bigotry"?

[NathanMuir]

Yes, airspace, fuel and space on the ground at the airport is at a premium, as well as food, water and shelter so let's take up valuable cargo space in the plane so we can fly some Haitians back home and add some more people to feed with the already strained relief supplies. :rolleyes: Got any other great ideas?

So perhaps we should just automate the planes and ships so we can stick more aid in place of the operators, crew and rescuers. :rolleyes:

And while we're at it, perhaps some people from this forum would like to go and help. That sounds like a great idea to me... ;)

[skunk]

So perhaps we should just automate the planes and ships so we can stick more aid in place of the operators, crew and rescuers. :rolleyes:

And while we're at it, perhaps some people from this forum would like to go and help. That sounds like a great idea to me... ;)What might be an even greater idea is for you to try to defend your extraordinary position instead of posting yet more foolishness.

[NathanMuir]

Whatever happened to:



or do they require a science-based bachelor degree as well to get in now?

Who would want to live in a country that was populated mainly by those types of people? Please don't compare the people of the 1700s-1800s to the situation the world is in presently. Especially in this day and age with the international drug trade and threat of terrorism. It was perfectly logical to institute a legal form of immigration and path to citizenship that allows in the hard working people who will make America better and eliminates those who would come to exploit our systems and way of life and live off the bounty of others or to simply attack us.

[bradl]

Just when you think the right-wing can't stoop any lower. I bet they're dancing in the streets thinking of all those Haitians dying. That'll teach them for being poor, eh? :rolleyes:

They already have. Remember that Pat Robertson had said that they deserve what they're getting from all of the deals they made with the devil a couple hundred years ago.

And Rush Limbaugh harped on the same thing on his own site (http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_011310/content/01125106.guest.html).

Just when you think they couldn't stoop any lower, they can, and they do.

BL.

[flopticalcube]

Who would want to live in a country that was populated mainly by those types of people?
What "types of people" do you mean?

Please don't compare the people of the 1700s-1800s to the situation the world is in presently. Especially in this day and age with the international drug trade and threat of terrorism.

Do you not think the world had an international drug trade 100-200 years ago? War and drugs have been with us for thousands of years.
It was perfectly logical to institute a legal form of immigration and path to citizenship that allows in the hard working people who will make America better and eliminates those who would come to exploit our systems and way of life and live off the bounty of others or to simply attack us.
So Haitians are not hard working then? What about the Irish/Polish/German/Italian/British immigrants of the last 200 years? Were they selected based on how hard they worked?

[dukebound85]

NathanMuir......I hope you realize that it is by chance, and chance alone that you live in the US and others live in Haiti or 3rd world countries

Please do not think you are somewhat better than these people....who are going through a situation that you simply CAN NOT fathom

With that said, we do have laws about immigration. I fully support temporary residence while the infrastructure, aid, and stability in the region restores itself.

If they wish to become legal citizens, go the legal route

[Lord Blackadder]

To repeat the link form the first page:

Temporary protected status is granted to foreigners who may not be able to return safely to their country because of a natural disaster, armed conflict or other reasons.

I think characterizing this as an invasion is a bit inflammatory.

My grandfather came to the USA at a time when Eastern Europeans were being described by pseudo"scientists" on both sides of the Atlantic as highly undesirable "races" of people. They were said to be lazy, inclined to drink and violence etc etc.

Well, it was all vicious nonsense. Just as the notion that people who enter a country illegally must be lazy - or that people who enter legally are automatically hardworking.

[NathanMuir]

NathanMuir......I hope you realize that it is by chance, and chance alone that you live in the US and others live in Haiti or 3rd world countries

Please do not think you are somewhat better than these people....who are going through a situation that you simply CAN NOT fathom

Show me where I have stated or implied that I am better than anyone. I am quite aware of the fact that I am very lucky to live in a first world country. However, I am not one of those people who travel the globe apologizing for this. Better luck next time.

[thegoldenmackid]

I'm just going to say:

I'm glad we are letting them stay.

If it pisses some people that the government does the right thing in a catastrophe - then I'll just laugh. The alternative would not only be inhumane, it would be nonsensical.

And Full of Win, you are a tad bit misleading. You forgot the word "temporarily"

[dukebound85]

Show me where I have stated or implied that I am better than anyone. I am quite aware of the fact that I am very lucky to live in a first world country. However, I am not one of those people who travel the globe apologizing for this. Better luck next time.

Sure...just by you saying "those types of people" implies you are better then them in your mind. Also, what "luck" are you talking about?

Who would want to live in a country that was populated mainly by those types of people? Please don't compare the people of the 1700s-1800s to the situation the world is in presently. Especially in this day and age with the international drug trade and threat of terrorism.

[anjinha]

Show me where I have stated or implied that I am better than anyone. I am quite aware of the fact that I am very lucky to live in a first world country. However, I am not one of those people who travel the globe apologizing for this. Better luck next time.

Here:

Who would want to live in a country that was populated mainly by those types of people?

[mactastic]

It's a temporary situation. What's the big deal? It makes sense.

What is wrong with you people? I'm serious- what has happened in your lives to make you such angry, spiteful human beings?
Sounds like they hate Barack HUSSEIN Obama so much that they would rather see people die in the streets than admit he's doing something right. It's Obama derangement syndrome, plain as day. What other reason could there be for opposition to humanitarian aid?

[macfan881]

...and the invasion continues.

If they are here illegally, seize them and put then in JAIL.

Me> :mad:

U and in the net are sad and sick

[ChrisWB]

...and the invasion continues.
If they are here illegally, seize them and put then in JAIL.
Me> :mad:Good, if they want to work send them back to work in Haiti, not here.
Charity is a central tenant of Christian theology. It's also a moral obligation deeply routed into secular society. I understand if you're not conservative Christians, but at least show some compassion.

[Zombie Acorn]

Why is this a post? Are you going to really send them back to their country that is in tatters? Wait a couple weeks for **** sake.

[bradl]

Why is this a post? Are you going to really send them back to their country that is in tatters? Wait a couple weeks for **** sake.

It shouldn't be. It's just Full of Win's latest Full of Fail. Abbie's link plus what was posted by Lord Blackadder both indicate that temporary was being granted. If Full of Win can't understand the meaning of the word 'temporary'..

Well, like I said. Full of Fail.

BL.

[King Mook Mook]

Full of Win and all the other complainers in this thread; What do you really want to do with these people. Say "Well we know that your family is dead, and there is no water, no food and no electricity in your country but we're sending you back. Have fun!" These people have experienced incredible loss and you suggest sending them back to their crisis, diseased and impoverished country which has no electricity, no water and no food. Also a place where there are many looters with machetes who will kill you.
What sort of people are you?

Do you want the blood of hundreds of people on your hands?

And also how do you propose getting them back to Haiti? The planes are full with you know Soldiers and Peace Keepers and food... the kind of things these people in Haiti need to stay alive. Instead of putting food that is critically needed you propose putting on people who will likely die when sent back to Haiti. This is absolute lunacy and you know it. Shame on you Full of Win and other.

I come from Australia, and I find it fascinating how polarised your two main political parties are. As in it's incredible how many people will go against a scheme just because it is proposed by the other party. For example it's clear many people in this thread (Full of Win etc.) just go against this scheme because it's proposed by Barack Obama. Here in Australia it's not completely unusual for there to be a bipartisan scheme. Not all bills have to be completely changed to be passed. Also I find that your right-wing party (the Republicans) is on the very-far right on many issues and appears to argue for the sake of arguing...

King Mook Mook

[Queso]

Do you want the blood of hundreds of people on your hands?
Not the way they see it. You see, these are illegal immigrants. Therefore they have no right to have survived that quake by not being in Haiti at the time, and so the rest of us have a duty to dispatch them to their deaths asap to restore God's balance.


AMEN!!!

:rolleyes:

[TuffLuffJimmy]

Typical. They're just going to take our relief effort jobs. :mad:

[NathanMuir]

What "types of people" do you mean?

Namely those who live in the periphery.

Do you not think the world had an international drug trade 100-200 years ago? War and drugs have been with us for thousands of years.

Read an introductory book on the affects of Globalization (it'll define periphery for you also.) and get back to me with your thoughts afterwards.

So Haitians are not hard working then? What about the Irish/Polish/German/Italian/British immigrants of the last 200 years? Were they selected based on how hard they worked?

Work to me means contrbuting to the country you live in or immigrate to in a positive manner. So I am quite certian that they were allowed in based on their abilities to effectively contribute to the American economy.

[Ugg]

Work to me means contrbuting to the country you live in or immigrate to in a positive manner. So I am quite certian that they were allowed in based on their abilities to effectively contribute to the American economy.

What about all the old people or the little kids? What about all the criminals that came to the US from Australia during the California Gold Rush?

Your rose colored glasses are fogged up dude. Applying your wishful thinking to the reality of pre WWII immigration blinds only you, not the historical facts.

[flopticalcube]

Namely those who live in the periphery.

I see. Poor people from impoverished nations. The wretched refuse from teeming shores...



Read an introductory book on the affects of Globalization (it'll define periphery for you also.) and get back to me with your thoughts afterwards.

Not really an answer to what I said. I know perfectly well what the periphery is thank you very much. (Core-Periphery Relationship)


Work to me means contrbuting to the country you live in or immigrate to in a positive manner. So I am quite certian that they were allowed in based on their abilities to effectively contribute to the American economy.
So you don't think Haitians can contribute in a positive manner? Just asking really. They are fairly poorly educated and do generally lack manual skills. Sounds like the average American high school graduate to me.

[NathanMuir]

What about all the old people or the little kids? What about all the criminals that came to the US from Australia during the California Gold Rush?

Your rose colored glasses are fogged up dude. Applying your wishful thinking to the reality of pre WWII immigration blinds only you, not the historical facts.

Are there special circumstances, sure. But the point is all these Haitians were already scheduled to be deported, the opposite of immigration.

Not really an answer to what I said. I know perfectly well what the periphery is thank you very much. (Core-Periphery Relationship)


So you're still saying you don't understand how globalization has drastically changed the way immigration is handled and the consquences that have risen as a result of globalization?

It seems to me like you're saying that drug dealers or terrorists have the same amount of power today that they had 200 years which couldn't be further from the truth.

So you don't think Haitians can contribute in a positive manner? Just asking really. They are fairly poorly educated and do generally lack manual skills. Sounds like the average American high school graduate to me.

All 500,000 to One Million (or more) of them currently in the US? No.

You're forgetting that the average American high school graduate has US citizenship. Nothing we can about that at the present time given their US citizenship.

[bobertoq]

It's a temporary situation. What's the big deal? It makes sense.

What is wrong with you people? I'm serious- what has happened in your lives to make you such angry, spiteful human beings?I am wondering the same thing... :confused:

I fail to recognize what the problem is if it is temporary. If I were president, I would've done the same thing.

[bruinsrme]

Yes, airspace, fuel and space on the ground at the airport is at a premium, as well as food, water and shelter so let's take up valuable cargo space in the plane so we can fly some Haitians back home and add some more people to feed with the already strained relief supplies. :rolleyes: Got any other great ideas?

So are you suggesting that we send more UN forces/resources to fix haiti while the Haitians are brought here and wait until their country is rebuilt?
Here's a thought, ship supplies and aid and the UN helps their people rebuild their own country, not rebuild it for them.

[TuffLuffJimmy]

So are you suggesting that we send more UN forces/resources to fix haiti while the Haitians are brought here and wait until their country is rebuilt?
Not at all. Quit making stuff up.

[abijnk]

So are you suggesting that we send more UN forces/resources to fix haiti while the Haitians are brought here and wait until their country is rebuilt?
Here's a thought, ship supplies and aid and the UN helps their people rebuild their own country, not rebuild it for them.

Have you even read the thread? No one is suggesting anything even close to that.

[freeny]

I am wondering the same thing... :confused:

I fail to recognize what the problem is if it is temporary. If I was president, I would've done the same thing.

Conservatives have an odd sense of entitelment. As if they are the "chosen" similar to royalty.

[King Mook Mook]

Conservatives have an odd sense of entitelment. As if they are the "chosen" similar to royalty.

Not all conservatives, rather the ones on the far, far, far right. Our conservative party in Australia would have done the same thing Obama did in this situation.

[freeny]

Not all conservatives, rather the ones on the far, far, far right. Our conservative party would have done the same thing Obama in this situation.

Yes, and my apologies for the sweeping generalization.

[Thomas Veil]

I am wondering the same thing... :confused:

I fail to recognize what the problem is if it is temporary. If I was president, I would've done the same thing.Same here.

I was pretty shocked by the attitude of the OP -- despite the fact that we're used to seeing some awfully hateful stuff from this guy. And, characteristically, he hasn't been back to defend his indefensible position.

Showing these people a little mercy = an "invasion". What a terrific "Christian".......

[Rt&Dzine]

Same here.

I was pretty shocked by the attitude of the OP -- despite the fact that we're used to seeing some awfully hateful stuff from this guy. And, characteristically, he hasn't been back to defend his indefensible position.

Showing these people a little mercy = an "invasion". What a terrific "Christian".......

In his defense (since he hasn't come back), I don't think he's ever represented himself as a Christian.

[mactastic]

Not all conservatives, rather the ones on the far, far, far right.
You mean US conservatives. AKA True Conservatives™

[NT1440]

In his defense (since he hasn't come back), I don't think he's ever represented himself as a Christian.

It'd would be nice for a rule in PRSI that the OP has to respond to their own thread at least once. These post and run inflammatory threads are getting downright ridiculous.

[Peace]

The word "temporary" really should be added to the title of this discussion.

[skunk]

The word "temporary" really should be added to the title of this discussion.Probably "temporarily" would fit better. :)

[flopticalcube]

CNN poll from their website:

Should Haitians in the U.S. be granted temporary protected status?

Yes 56% 196270

No 44% 154793

Total votes: 351063
This is not a scientific poll

[TuffLuffJimmy]

CNN poll from their website:
I hate those polls. Misinformed people just back up misinformed people and they somehow think their opinion is justified.

[skunk]

44% of respondents should be sent to Haiti on holiday.

[NathanMuir]

44% of respondents should be sent to Haiti on holiday.

I think you meant the 56% since those are the people who would like to them the most.

[skunk]

I think you meant the 56% since those are the people who would like to them the most.No, I mean that 44% appear not to be aware of what conditions they want to send these people back to. They might benefit from a little first-hand experience.

[TuffLuffJimmy]

I think you meant the 56% since those are the people who would like to them the most.
"them"

Nice post, Nathan. I'm glad to see you're so fair and balanced.

[NathanMuir]

"them"

Nice post, Nathan. I'm glad to see you're so fair and balanced.

Ah, nice FOX News reference, but if you've read any of my other posts then you know I dislike FOX News. Regardless of that fact, people with opinions are rarely 'fair and balanced' so I think that applies to all of us here.

[leekohler]

No, I mean that 44% appear not to be aware of what conditions they want to send these people back to. They might benefit from a little first-hand experience.

Yes- they certainly would. Ever notice that people with opinions like Nathan's are usually (not always) people who've never left the country?

[mgguy]

Not the way they see it. You see, these are illegal immigrants. Therefore they have no right to have survived that quake by not being in Haiti at the time, and so the rest of us have a duty to dispatch them to their deaths asap to restore God's balance.


AMEN!!!

:rolleyes:


What a vile and asinine post. You can't really believe this crap, can you?

I would think that Haitians who are here illegally, perhaps with family back in their home country, would welcome a chance to return and help out those in need, even if it means helping to distribute food and water or staking up bodies.

[NathanMuir]

Yes- they certainly would. Ever notice that people with opinions like Nathan's are usually (not always) people who've never left the country?

I'm glad you stuck that 'not always' in there because I would be more than happy to send you a list with pictures of places I've studied in around the world.

[Queso]

What an vile and asinine post. You can't really believe this crap, can you?
After what the repulsive Limbaugh said and the amount of support he has received I seriously do believe there is an element of the American right-wing who are that vindictive, yes.

As for "welcoming the chance to go home" the last thing Haiti needs right now are more mouths to feed and/or more people requiring help. There will be a time when they may want to return to help, but that time will not come until the emergency is over and the rebuilding can begin.

[leekohler]

I'm glad you stuck that 'not always' in there because I would be more than happy to send you a list with pictures of places I've studied in around the world.

There definitely are people who continue to hold selfish points of view even after traveling extensively. I think we just established that, didn't we?

What an vile and asinine post. You can't really believe this crap, can you?

I would think that Haitians who are here illegally, perhaps with family back in their home country, would welcome a chance to return and help out those in need, even if it means helping to distribute food and water or staking up bodies.

Well, let's let them make that decision, shall we?

[TuffLuffJimmy]

What an vile and asinine post. You can't really believe this crap, can you?

I would think that Haitians who are here illegally, perhaps with family back in their home country, would welcome a chance to return and help out those in need, even if it means helping to distribute food and water or staking up bodies.
Typical. They're just going to take our relief effort jobs. :mad: Been said.

[skunk]

After what the repulsive Limbaugh said and the amount of support he has received I seriously do believe there is an element of the American right-wing who are that vindictive, yes....some of them not a million miles from this very forum.

[AppleIntelRock]

...and the invasion continues.

If they are here illegally, seize them and put then in JAIL.

Me> :mad:
Do you know anything about the history of immigration from pre-colonial times through modern industrial society? Are are you simply regurgitating hateful, meaningless garbage out of pure ignorance? Don't get too caught up in your 'patriotic', xenophobic little world of O'Beckaugh Land– read a book every so often.

[bradl]

...and the invasion continues.

If they are here illegally, seize them and put then in JAIL.

Me> :mad:

The Invasion began in 1492.

Since you're (via your ancestors) are immigrants too, you should either get thrown in jail, or better yet, kick yourself out.

BL.

[mgguy]

The Invasion began in 1492.

Since you're (via your ancestors) are immigrants too, you should either get thrown in jail, or better yet, kick yourself out.

BL.

So what are you suggesting? That we automatically treat all illegal immigrants as citizens? Do you want no accountability at all for violating our immigration laws?

[TuffLuffJimmy]

So what are you suggesting? That we automatically treat all illegal immigrants as citizens? Do you want no accountability at all for violating our immigration laws?
No, but the laws are very hypocritical. I'm not saying we should get rid of the laws, I'm just making an observation.

[mgguy]

No, but the laws are very hypocritical. I'm not saying we should get rid of the laws, I'm just making an observation.
In what way are the laws hypocritical?

[bobber205]

In what way are the laws hypocritical?

Logic fail.

The reasoning is right in front of you. The USA was built by illegal immigration but we're mad that people want to come in just like our ancestors did? That's what it's hypocritical.

[bradl]

So what are you suggesting? That we automatically treat all illegal immigrants as citizens? Do you want no accountability at all for violating our immigration laws?

What I am suggesting is that it is hypocritical for someone to say that someone who has identified themselves as White American has criticized this as 'illegal immigration' and an 'invasion', when the same exact thing happened on and after 1492, and their ancestors didn't complain about it then.

Jack White said it best, in Icky Thump:


White Americans, what, nothin' better to do?
Why don't you kick yourself out, you're an immigrant too.


Hypocrisy serves no purpose in this, especially when it is a humanitarian issue, and is only temporary.

As for Columbus, et. al... Westwind World (http://www.westwindworld.com) has a shirt that says it all (http://westwindworld.com//store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=73).

BL.

[dukebound85]

What I am suggesting is that it is hypocritical for someone to say that someone who has identified themselves as White American has criticized this as 'illegal immigration' and an 'invasion', when the same exact thing happened on and after 1492, and their ancestors didn't complain about it then.


Except we didn't have immigration laws in 1492. As such, it can't be hypocritical.


Hypocrisy serves no purpose in this, especially when it is a humanitarian issue, and is only temporary.




What hypocrisy? However, I agree with the humanitarian and it being temporary

[bradl]

Except we didn't have immigration laws in 1492


Did anybody bother to ask if the Natives that were already here if they did?

If so, not only would everything on Hispaniola, Cortez, Pizarro, and the Trail of Tears not have occurred, but there would have been a lot more peace and less discrimination against the Amer. Indians (both north and south of the US Border) and other races.


What hypocrisy? However, I agree with the humanitarian and it being temporary

I'll be blunt. Whites come over, stake out everything as if they own the land, regardless of whatever peoples have lived here for hundreds of years, and now someone like the OP are mad that the natives, on the island where Columbus first discovered them, nevermind you, are being granted the ability to temporarily stay?

Hypocrisy at the most visible level.

BL.

[dukebound85]

Did anybody bother to ask if the Natives that were already here if they did?

Your point? History is filled with examples of conquest by other people

If so, not only would everything on Hispaniola, Cortez, Pizarro, and the Trail of Tears not have occurred, but there would have been a lot more peace and less discrimination against the Amer. Indians (both north and south of the US Border) and other races.


This is hardly unique to N.A. you know right?


I'll be blunt. Whites come over, stake out everything as if they own the land, regardless of whatever peoples have lived here for hundreds of years, and now someone like the OP are mad that the natives, on the island where Columbus first discovered them, nevermind you, are being granted the ability to temporarily stay?

Hypocrisy at the most visible level.

BL.


Being native has no bearing. The reality is that there are laws in place regarding immigration now and there weren't (any that could be enforced) when Columbus came over.

History has many examples of other people conquering other people and taking over their lands. Native, while a unique concept, really means nothing. History has shown time and time again that the conquering people make the rules. It is a sad fact, but is true

On the other hand, I am sure there would be many "Germans" who would be upset if I decide to move back, along with many other German Americans if we had a catastrophe as well and were just given citizenship.

This is hardly unique to the US

However, none of this matters as it's a temporary stay while their country gets rebuilt

[TuffLuffJimmy]

In what way are the laws hypocritical?
You're really serious, dude?

[hulugu]

...I would think that Haitians who are here illegally, perhaps with family back in their home country, would welcome a chance to return and help out those in need, even if it means helping to distribute food and water or staking up bodies.

Unless they're trained in Search & Rescue, medicine, or some other useful skill, sending them back is inherently problematic. First, they will occupy space that should otherwise be given to skilled personel, equipment, rations, etc. Second, sending untrained people into a disaster idea just create more desperate and hungry people.

They should be given temporary visas to stay in the US.

Except we didn't have immigration laws in 1492. As such, it can't be hypocritical....

Huh? First, there was no "we" so to speak, rather the Americas were made up of hundreds of disparate "nations" across the continents, however, there were several instances throughout the colonial period of native cultures attempting and largely failing to eject the invading hordes of europeans. There were no "laws," but there was resistance as well as a series of broken treaties throughout three centuries.

In fact, the United States alone broke dozens of treaties (which would be illegal under international law had such a system existed) with various tribes, including the Sioux Treaty of 1868.
Moreover, the United States has always been dismissive of immigrant groups since the end of the colonial era. While the US accepted the thousands of German immigrants who poured into the US, later groups, including Chinese, Irish, Italians, etc. were treated with contempt.
Furthermore, several indian tribes lived on their land until, for instance the Gadsden Purchase of 1854, when suddenly they were part of the United States, and subject to its laws. These tribes retaliated by raiding the US-Mexico border, a pattern that continued until pre-WWI.

With this in mind, it becomes very difficult to ascribe some extra importance to US immigration law, when it's reality is a hodgepodge of history and happenstance, and not sense some hypocrisy when the US claims to be "invaded" by a newest ethnic group (or in the case of Latin American migrants, a history as old as Father Kino.

[Ugg]

Huh? First, there was no "we" so to speak, rather the Americas were made up of hundreds of disparate "nations" across the continents, however, there were several instances throughout the colonial period of native cultures attempting and largely failing to eject the invading hordes of europeans. There were no "laws," but there was resistance as well as a series of broken treaties throughout three centuries.

In fact, the United States alone broke dozens of treaties (which would be illegal under international law had such a system existed) with various tribes, including the Sioux Treaty of 1868.
Moreover, the United States has always been dismissive of immigrant groups since the end of the colonial era. While the US accepted the thousands of German immigrants who poured into the US, later groups, including Chinese, Irish, Italians, etc. were treated with contempt.
Furthermore, several indian tribes lived on their land until, for instance the Gadsden Purchase of 1854, when suddenly they were part of the United States, and subject to its laws. These tribes retaliated by raiding the US-Mexico border, a pattern that continued until pre-WWI.

With this in mind, it becomes very difficult to ascribe some extra importance to US immigration law, when it's reality is a hodgepodge of history and happenstance, and not sense some hypocrisy when the US claims to be "invaded" by a newest ethnic group (or in the case of Latin American migrants, a history as old as Father Kino.

+1

However, you're conveniently ignoring the fact that the "hundreds of disparate nations" were rather fond of invading each others' space and equally fond of enslaving the people from other tribes. They had little or no respect for any "laws" that might have existed. I assure you that it wasn't something taught them by Europeans.

The Europeans were of course assisted by disease as a WMD. Not intentionally of course, merely a matter of chance. Chance that in the fertile crescent, man co-existed with a number of animals that they later domesticated, thereby sharing diseases. Native Americans did repay them somewhat by passing on syphilis.


I think when people, ie rightwingers, start trumpeting immigration law, they're only too happy to ignore what was written prior to WWII and embrace only post war laws. To them, America has always been the home of northern Europeans and everyone else is here "illegally".

[nullx86]

pfft, i think this is pretty lame because of how the US has preached about the immigration and now they are openly letting them in? wtf.

[TuffLuffJimmy]

pfft, i think this is pretty lame because of how the US has preached about the immigration and now they are openly letting them in? wtf.
Yeah, good thing you read the thread. :rolleyes:

[hulugu]

....

However, you're conveniently ignoring the fact that the "hundreds of disparate nations" were rather fond of invading each others' space and equally fond of enslaving the people from other tribes. They had little or no respect for any "laws" that might have existed. I assure you that it wasn't something taught them by Europeans. ...

I didn't write about that, but I certainly agree with you. The other myth is that the Native Americans were peaceful, mother-earth types beset by warmongering Europeans, this isn't true either.

This weekend I went to a talk about Olive Oatman, a Mormon girl who was captured by the Yavapai near Yuma, AZ in 1851. After her capture, she was traded as a slave to the Mojave where she lived for six years until the tribe traded her, for blankets and horses, to settlers at Fort Yuma.

[greygray]

This thread is full of lose. :rolleyes:

[Eraserhead]

The other myth is that the Native Americans were peaceful, mother-earth types beset by warmongering Europeans, this isn't true either.

Why should they be peaceful? Most (if not all) other conquered peoples weren't peaceful...

[Ugg]

I didn't write about that, but I certainly agree with you. The other myth is that the Native Americans were peaceful, mother-earth types beset by warmongering Europeans, this isn't true either.
.

European arrival into the Americas was always more or less inevitable. Migration has always stemmed from overpopulated areas to underpopulated ones. Which is most likely the reason Asian peoples crossed the Bering land bridge. They were looking for unsettled land.

The problems started arising around the time of the French-Indian wars and there's really no excuse for colonial behaviour in that time period. Custer's last stand was mostly just a post script to over a century of bloodshed but it justified continued brutal tactics in the suppression of native peoples.

Nor is it just the United States that is guilty of oppressing native peoples. You'd be hard pressed to find a single nation in all of the Americas where natives weren't oppressed by invading Europeans.

[Eraserhead]

Nor is it just the United States that is guilty of oppressing native peoples. You'd be hard pressed to find a single nation in all of the Americas where natives weren't oppressed by invading Europeans.

Agreed, it happened in Australia and New Zealand too as well.

[hulugu]

Why should they be peaceful? Most (if not all) other conquered peoples weren't peaceful...

Absolutely.

European arrival into the Americas was always more or less inevitable. Migration has always stemmed from overpopulated areas to underpopulated ones. Which is most likely the reason Asian peoples crossed the Bering land bridge. They were looking for unsettled land.

Again, I agree.

The problems started arising around the time of the French-Indian wars and there's really no excuse for colonial behaviour in that time period. Custer's last stand was mostly just a post script to over a century of bloodshed but it justified continued brutal tactics in the suppression of native peoples.

I'd go back further to Cortes and the destruction—or the final blow depending on which historian you read—of the Aztec empire. However, I agree with you about Custer, the events at Little Big Horn were probably the apex of the American-Indian Wars. Of course, battles continued for another half-century until 1918, when a small Yaqui force was captured by US troops after a brief firefight, effectively ending violence by military force: internment and the "indian schools" continued for another generation.

[opinioncircle]

...and the invasion continues.

If they are here illegally, seize them and put then in JAIL.

Me> :mad:

If your picture is any indication of your state of mind, then I completely understand why you are mad...

Have you ever been through an immigration process whatsoever? If so, was it because your country was in shambles and you were trying to avoid desperation and fear for your loved ones as well as yourself?