What does it mean to be a Man?

[mscriv]

I'm the father of two boys and this week my youngest turns one year old. So, I've been doing a lot of thinking about my responsibility in raising them and the goal of preparing them to become adults. Our world is constantly bombarding us with various and often differing messages about what it means to be a "man". Are there certain characteristics? Is there a "rite of passage"? I thought I would pose the question here because we have a variety or different perspectives represented and I'm interested to hear what others think.

What is or does it mean to be a Man?

* While not overly political, I'm putting this in PRSI because the question and subsequent answers will have a lot to do with one's social, religious, or philosophical world views.

[flopticalcube]

Putting aside your wants and needs for that of your family. Being the kind of role model that you want your children to emulate. Not being a douchebag.

[leekohler]

A man in my definition is:

1. Responsible
2. Courageous (that means many things, including admitting one's faults as well as defending oneself)
3. Humble as well as proud
4. Helps others when they need it, regardless of whether or not those in need share the same belief system or ethnic background.

That's just what comes to mind immediately.

[barkomatic]

I think being a man means being confident--without being arrogant. It also means being somewhat resilient emotionally. I'm not so old school as saying men shouldn't ever cry--there are certainly upsetting situations where its appropriate. However, I've noticed that in popular culture men cry like babies over every little bump in the road these days.

[leekohler]

However, I've noticed that in popular culture men cry like babies over every little bump in the road these days.

Really? Examples? I'm not seeing that.

[obeygiant]

No man has ever risen to the real stature of spiritual manhood until he has found that it is finer to serve somebody else than it is to serve himself. ~ Woodrow T. Wilson

Whether through kids or causes, becoming a man means serving someone or something greater than yourself.

[Zombie Acorn]

Really? Examples? I'm not seeing that.

You haven't been watching glenn beck.

Self-reliance is what I would add to the list.

[NT1440]

You haven't been watching glenn beck.

No, we haven't :p

[leekohler]

You haven't been watching glenn beck.


Nor will I ever. Glenn Beck is the opposite of what I consider a man to be.

[Eraserhead]

A man in my definition is:

1. Responsible
2. Courageous (that means many things, including admitting one's faults as well as defending oneself)
3. Humble as well as proud
4. Helps others when they need it, regardless of whether or not those in need share the same belief system or ethnic background.

That's just what comes to mind immediately.

Self-reliance is what I would add to the list.

That sounds like a good definition to me.

[Rt&Dzine]

OMG, Glenn Beck is a Mormon? I always think of Mormons as basically nice people. I guess that teaches me not to generalize.

[Zombie Acorn]

OMG, Glenn Beck is a Mormon? I always think of Mormons as basically nice people. I guess that teaches me not to generalize.

I actually did not know this, he must be a convert because he was a self-admitted alcoholic.

[Rt&Dzine]

I actually did not know this, he must be a convert because he was a self-admitted alcoholic.

Oh, you're correct. Wiki says he joined in 1999. That explains it.

[j/k/Andy]

Trustworthy
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[yg17]

OMG, Glenn Beck is a Mormon? I always think of Mormons as basically nice people. I guess that teaches me not to generalize.

He's probably to Mormons what Fred Phelps is to Christians, a crazed loon that does not represent the religion.

Don't get it confused with moron, which he most definitely does represent.

[gilkisson]

Putting aside your wants and needs for that of your family. Being the kind of role model that you want your children to emulate. Not being a douchebag.

True this. True this all.

"'Duty' is the most sublime word in our language" -- Robert E. Lee.

Trustworthy
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"... and will endeavor, so far as in my powers lie, to be unselfish in service to the welfare of others."...

[nbs2]

OMG, Glenn Beck is a Mormon? I always think of Mormons as basically nice people. I guess that teaches me not to generalize.

If it helps, just think of Gladys Knight whenever you hear his name. Now you can get back to thinking of them as nice folk.

[barkomatic]

Really? Examples? I'm not seeing that.

Any reality show that includes some type of challenge that needs to be met you will often find men crying if they can't meet the challenge, or if they do they will cry out of happiness. Ty Pennington cries repreatedly on his show "Extreme Makeover" as do the men whose homes are being remodeled. You'll see firefighters, police, and random men cry on the news. You'll see men cry on TV talk shows. Politicians caught with prostitutes or mistresses cry at press conferences, etc etc.

[Rt&Dzine]

Any reality show that includes some type of challenge that needs to be met you will often find men crying if they can't meet the challenge, or if they do they will cry out of happiness. Ty Pennington cries repreatedly on his show "Extreme Makeover" as do the men whose homes are being remodeled. You'll see firefighters, police, and random men cry on the news. You'll see men cry on TV talk shows. Politicians caught with prostitutes or mistresses cry at press conferences, etc etc.

Is that type of crying unmanly? Showing happiness? I thought you meant whining and complaining men which seems more unmanly to me.

[leekohler]

Any reality show that includes some type of challenge that needs to be met you will often find men crying if they can't meet the challenge, or if they do they will cry out of happiness. Ty Pennington cries repreatedly on his show "Extreme Makeover" as do the men whose homes are being remodeled. You'll see firefighters, police, and random men cry on the news. You'll see men cry on TV talk shows. Politicians caught with prostitutes or mistresses cry at press conferences, etc etc.

You watch entirely too much TV.

And Ty Pennington crying is just fine. That show does a lot of good for people. Those events are not "little things". That show changes entire families' lives. Anyone who cries on that show is crying for the right reasons.

[barkomatic]

Is that type of crying unmanly? Showing happiness? I thought you meant whining and complaining men which seems more unmanly to me.

If a man just lost his wife or child in a tragic event and is on the news--I can understand the poor man crying. However, crying at press conferences can be somewhat disingenuous IMO. It seems to me to be a method politicians use to convey a sense of sincerity about how sorry they are--but it comes off differently for me.

Also, I roll my eyes everytime Ty Pennington cries-- its so obviously acting. Men crying on reality TV is also acting most of the time.

I think for years men have been forced by our culture to repress their feelings and not talk about things when they should--and I'm glad that is turning around. This is different.

[barkomatic]

You watch entirely too much TV.

And Ty Pennington crying is just fine. That show does a lot of good for people. Those events are not "little things". That show changes entire families' lives. Anyone who cries on that show is crying for the right reasons.

They're crying for ratings. Everyone on the show knows they need to elevate the drama factor for the audience.

For the record, I cancelled my cable subscription long ago so I don't watch that much TV anymore. However, one can't help but see these things.

[leekohler]

They're crying for ratings. Everyone on the show knows they need to elevate the drama factor for the audience.


Umm...OK. Say what you will. But if someone came in and gave me a new house for free, and that house addressed special needs for my family that I could not afford to provide, I'd be bawling my eyes out.

[nbs2]

Umm...OK. Say what you will. But if someone came in and gave me a new house for free, and that house addressed special needs for my family that I could not afford to provide, I'd be bawling my eyes out.

That's the problem. Yes, you would be crying. But, if you were doing this on a regular basis, eventually you would become (for lack of a better work) routine. Clearly there may be specific events that may hit you harder than others, but based on the description provided (I don't watch the show), guy is crying on a regular basis throughout each show.

At least, that's what I am getting from those posts.

[leekohler]

That's the problem. Yes, you would be crying. But, if you were doing this on a regular basis, eventually you would become (for lack of a better work) routine. Clearly there may be specific events that may hit you harder than others, but based on the description provided (I don't watch the show), guy is crying on a regular basis throughout each show.

At least, that's what I am getting from those posts.

I don't know. I used to watch that show all the time, and I'd be crying by the end. If I did it for a living, I don't know if it could ever become routine. I really don't.

[opinioncircle]

A man, in my book, is someone who can look themselves in the mirror and either liking what they see, or not disliking what they see.

I know there are plenty of other things, such as being able to be held accountable for what you do. But it all comes down to this bottom line to me, looking at the mirror, and not wanting to be someone else or stepping out of the frame.

[anjinha]

I used to watch that show and Ty definitely didn't cry all the time. But it wouldn't bother me if he did.

[AAPLaday]

I know what doesn't make a man. Pete Doherty

[NathanMuir]

Trustworthy
Loyal
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Courteous
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Cheerful
Thrifty
Brave
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+1. Said it every week for six or seven years until I Eagled out.

[hulugu]

Manliness consists not in bluff, bravado or lordliness. It consists in daring to do the right and facing consequences whether it is in matters social, political or other. It consists in deeds, not in words.

—*Mohandas Ghandi.

[dmr727]

"Sure. That and a pair of testicles."

[barkomatic]

Trustworthy
Loyal
Helpful
Friendly
Courteous
Kind
Obedient
Cheerful
Thrifty
Brave
Clean
Reverent

Some of these traits are nice but this is not a man, this is a lapdog. "Obedient"? Should he fetch your slippers as well? :)

[ucfgrad93]

Trustworthy
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Cheerful
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I've always tried to use the Boy Scout Law as a model to live my life.

+1. Said it every week for six or seven years until I Eagled out.

Same here. Earned my Eagle in 1983.

Some of these traits are nice but this is not a man, this is a lapdog. "Obedient"? Should he fetch your slippers as well? :)

Every person is under someone's authority. Whether its your boss, civil authorities, etc. Do you do what your boss tells you to do? If so, then I guess since you are being obedient you are a lapdog as well.:p

[Zombie Acorn]

Every person is under someone's authority. Whether its your boss, civil authorities, etc. Do you do what your boss tells you to do? If so, then I guess since you are being obedient you are a lapdog as well.:p

This isn't entirely true, what most people do is a barter. I do what my boss (if I had one) says because hes going to pay me money in return. I do what the government says because they protect my freedoms, so I allow some freedom to be lost in return (plus some cash).

Technically anyone could tell their boss to go to hell and move to some free land/water area like the antartic/international waters. Life probably isn't going to be too sweet though.

[mcrain]

I appreciate your question, and the thought you are putting into this. You seem worried about somehow molding your boys into future men. Have you ever thought back on your own childhood? What did your parents do to mold you into the man that you are now?

I say that because I too have a boy, and I too have considered this question.

Here's what I think. I think if you give your boys lots of opportunities to see the world, lots of chances to experience things, and lots of freedom to explore their limits they will develop into interesting adults. If you give them structure and guidance, and remember that you're the parent, and kids should treat their parents and other adults with respect, they will be fine.

Also, be consistent! You and your boys' mother should be on the same page at all times.

I see parents who cover up their children's failings, or allow their children to rule the roost, and it backfires. Be a parent! Be a dad!

I think as long as you do your best to be a good father, you'll be surprised at how good your boys will turn out.

[bbotte]

I'm pretty sure you have to have a penis and that's it, one ball, two balls, three balls, no balls, is irrelevant. That is tough enough a definition these days sometimes.

[NathanMuir]

Some of these traits are nice but this is not a man, this is a lapdog. "Obedient"? Should he fetch your slippers as well? :)

Also, given that Lord Robert Baden-Powell, who served in the British Military, founded the organization, I believe that obedient would apply here more in a military sense. In which case if your CO tells you to get his slippers, you'd best get them. ;)

[Gelfin]

In a word, integrity.

More important to me, though, are a couple of things it is not:

While it includes willingness to stand up for what is right, it does not include an eagerness to do so by coercion, physical or otherwise. Domination is a visceral satisfaction left over from our animal roots, and we should always be suspicious of our capacity to invent righteous causes to exercise that instinct.

Also, while it includes taking responsibility without complaint or excuse, it does not include stoicism. The idea that an inexpressive, unemotional male is a "strong" one is a pathology of the 20th Century, wherein many of our fathers, grandfathers and great grandfathers went to their graves never wanting to talk about the horrors of warfare they had experienced. This isn't normal, but it was common enough we came to think of it as normal. Being a man involves taking responsibility for your own emotions, not denying them altogether.

[skunk]

I'd prefer to define humanity rather than gender. Compassion, humility, accountability and a questioning spirit.

[bemylover]

Kipling put it well

IF you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: 'Hold on!'

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
' Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch,
if neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

[skunk]

Well, I suppose somebody had to post that.

[mactastic]

I'm pretty sure it involves a penis. And really, not much else. Some age, I suppose. Can't have my 3yo running around calling himself a man just yet. Might freak his mom out.

Now, we could discuss the traits of a good human being...

[Peterkro]

What does it take to be a man?That's easy, cowboy boots and bathing suits,and dolphins.Of course an excess of testosterone and a thick skull helps.

[skunk]

What does it take to be a man?That's easy, cowboy boots and bathing suits,and dolphins.Of course an excess of testosterone and a thick skull helps.What have you been up to, man? :confused:

[Peterkro]

Just in football scores

Real Madrid=1
Surreal Madrid=Fish

[skunk]

That was some match.

[eMac4ever]

The same thing it means to be a woman--a person who acts ethically, compassionately, and rationally.

[greygray]

http://www.motifake.com/demotivational-poster/0808/the-man-demotivational-poster-1218548265.jpg

[partyBoy]

Being a man is screwing as many chicks as possible,telling girls what to do and making her cook for you when you come home from work. Oooh don't forget about making her clean the house thoughly.

[ToroidalZeus]

I believe you are asking two questions. 1) What being a man is? 2) Asking about how to raise your kids to be men?

2) What matters in child raising is you. Your kids will be a reflection of yourself. If you have productive beliefs and actions (e.g. Believing people need to make their own mistakes. Realizing no one is perfect and not faulting them for that. Saying excuse me when you walk by someone. Saying thank you when someone does something nice for you. etc), then your kids will learn these thing from you and become successful functioning members of society. If on the other hand you have counterproductive beliefs and actions (e.g. Being paranoid. Throwing mantrums. Getting into fights. Causing unnecessary drama. etc) then your kids will grow up to have issues later in life.

1) I would say being a man means being wise. It is about knowing what to say, what not to say, what to do, what not to do, what to believe, what not to believe and so on and so on.

[it5five]

I'd prefer to define humanity rather than gender. Compassion, humility, accountability and a questioning spirit.

I agree.

Why would someone raise a daughter any different than a son?

[maflynn]

Why would someone raise a daughter any different than a son?
I dunno, maybe because they're different.

[leekohler]

I dunno, maybe because they're different.

There's that whole "monthly bill" thing and such. ;) And different things start happening to boys that have to be explained. :D

[hulugu]

I agree.

Why would someone raise a daughter any different than a son?

There's some differences, most of them culturally-imposed, that need to be addressed, but generally speaking I think you're right.

However, since the OP was wondering specific on how to raise his boys, I think the original question remains valid, how does one raise boys to be good men.

I'm wondering the same thing as my wife is pregnant and due this summer. I have to start thinking about these sorts of things too.

[it5five]

I dunno, maybe because they're different.

Their genitals are different, but beyond that, there is no difference, other than differences imposed on us by society and culture.

I certainly wouldn't raise a son or daughter any different, besides the unavoidable biological differences.

[skunk]

What matters in child raising is you. Your kids will be a reflection of yourself. If you have productive beliefs and actions (e.g. Believing people need to make their own mistakes. Realizing no one is perfect and not faulting them for that. Saying excuse me when you walk by someone. Saying thank you when someone does something nice for you. etc), then your kids will learn these thing from you and become successful functioning members of society. If on the other hand you have counterproductive beliefs and actions (e.g. Being paranoid. Throwing mantrums. Getting into fights. Causing unnecessary drama. etc) then your kids will grow up to have issues later in life.If only life was that simple. But it's not.

[leekohler]

If only life was that simple. But it's not.

Nope- kids are their own beings. All you can do is guide them and hope they listened and learned once they leave the nest.

[mscriv]

Thanks for the replies so far from everyone. I'm finding the variety of views very insightful. I appreciate the emphasis on affirming humanity as a whole as opposed to gender stereotypes and separation, but I do think there are differences between the sexes and thus I am focused on specifically the idea or concept of manhood. (you perverts know what I mean, so there's no need to go there.) :cool:

[skunk]

Thanks for the replies so far from everyone. I'm finding the variety of views very insightful. I appreciate the emphasis on affirming humanity as a whole as opposed to gender stereotypes and separation, but I do think there are differences between the sexes and thus I am focused on specifically the idea or concept of manhood.Any differences there may be will assert themselves in due course. Encourage the children to be good people and let them dress their goodness for themselves.

[ToroidalZeus]

If only life was that simple. But it's not.
Actually it is. The world is filled with bad people or bad information like propaganda and disinformation but if you can share (i.e. teach) your knowledge(assuming you are wise) with your kid than they will turn out okay.

[MotleyPete]

A well stocked tool shed
Hands like shovels
An incredible tolerance for alcohol
Grooming with only soap, water and a rusty hunting knife
Never ever crying due to physical and emotional pain, or onions
Spending more time outdoors than in
Sleeping like a lion after dinner
Massive loud smelly farts
Never apologising
Smashing things that refuse to work properly
Smoking only cigars or pipes
Growling, or shouting every tenth word or so


That's about it I think

[skunk]

Actually it is. The world is filled with bad people or bad information like propaganda and disinformation but if you can share (i.e. teach) your knowledge(assuming you are wise) with your kid than they will turn out okay.You can dream, of course.

[macswitcha2]

I'm the father of two boys and this week my youngest turns one year old. So, I've been doing a lot of thinking about my responsibility in raising them and the goal of preparing them to become adults. Our world is constantly bombarding us with various and often differing messages about what it means to be a "man". Are there certain characteristics? Is there a "rite of passage"? I thought I would pose the question here because we have a variety or different perspectives represented and I'm interested to hear what others think.

What is or does it mean to be a Man?

* While not overly political, I'm putting this in PRSI because the question and subsequent answers will have a lot to do with one's social, religious, or philosophical world views.



I believe that the best interpreter of what a man is is the one who created man and humanity as a whole the God of the Hebrew Bible and Greek Scriptures. Outside of God we are left to recreate what a man should be.

[j/k/Andy]

Some of these traits are nice but this is not a man, this is a lapdog. "Obedient"? Should he fetch your slippers as well? :)

Obedient. A Scout follows the rules of his family, school, and troop. He obeys the laws of his community and country. If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he seeks to have them changed in an orderly way.

[Badandy]

I believe that the best interpreter of what a man is is the one who created man and humanity as a whole the God of the Hebrew Bible and Greek Scriptures. Outside of God we are left to recreate what a man should be.

I can make stuff up to. Let's please not go there in a thread that is (so far) productive and helpful.

[No1451]

I can make stuff up to. Let's please not go there in a thread that is (so far) productive and helpful.

I don't think there's a need for that. This is a question where the answer is subjective, he voiced his opinion and there is no call to tear him down over it.

Might as well throw in my opinion: responsibility, honesty and a respect for humanity.

[Desertrat]

A strong point for me is the idea that one is responsible for the consequences of decisions and actions. Don't blame "them" or "they" for hard times.

It's easier to be honest than to lie, 'cause if you lie, you have to remember what you said.

Keep your word. That helps make for a good reputation and to be known as a respectable person.

Self-esteem must be earned by overcoming challenges. It cannot be given. A willingness to meet challenges is a sign of maturity.

The Boy Scout's Motto and Creed are good things. I see it as nitpicky to worry about "obedient", as it means different things to different people. They, along with the Golden Rule and most of the Ten Commandments are ways to avoid conflict with family, friends and neighbors.

If you generally stay within shouting distance of what I've mentioned, odds are you'll do okay as an adult--whether male or female. If so, being a good role model for the kids is a routine thing. All any of us can do is strive; nobody's perfect.

Raising kids? One thing is to make the little devil earn the allowance; it's not a gift. Inculcates a work ethic, early on, and helps avoid the idea that there will always be somebody there to take care of them. Little chores around the house to start; more important things later on.

At-table meals in the kitchen with conversation creates a sense of familial unity, and that's damned important. But don't air complaints during the meal. :) Bad on the appetite.

Kids are easily embarrassed. Don't. Remonstrances should always be private things. No unnecessary harping about them, later.

And lots of hugs or shoulder pats. Always remember positive reinforcement, hoping to minimize the negatives.

'Rat

[skunk]

And lots of hugs or shoulder pats....but definitely no kissing. Kissing is for girls.

[Don't panic]

Trustworthy
Loyal
Helpful
Friendly
Courteous
Kind
Obedient
Cheerful
Thrifty
Brave
Clean
Reverent

is this the perfect slave recipe?

[skunk]

is this the perfect slave recipe?No, there's no mention of sexual services, although that's probably in white print so I can't see it.

[Don't panic]

No, there's no mention of sexual services, although that's probably in white print so I can't see it.

i thought that was covered by the 'obedient' entry. and clean.

[Desertrat]

Ehhh, y'all are just messin' around, huntin' boogers in this kak about "obedient". Think of it in terms of "loyalty to the salt". Obedient to the ones you hire out to, until you figure they don't merit your loyalty.

Then again, with the Boy Sprouts, they start in at age 12. At age 12, obedience to one's elders is expected. Was around all my relatives, anyway. :)

Ever have an uncle or a teacher who could give you "that look"? The one which had you knowing beyond the shadow of a doubt that you'd screwed up, big time? That what you oughta do wuz crawl back under your flat rock?

:D, 'Rat

[renewed]

This is obviously my religious beliefs but they are my beliefs none-the-less that I hold to be true:

A man's roles are as follows:

Pastor of Family
Prophet of Family
Provider
Protector

[iCantwait]

drink lots of beer
sleep with lots of women
guns
fast cars
big cars
BEER

[skunk]

This is obviously my religious beliefs but they are my beliefs none-the-less that I hold to be true:

A man's roles are as follows:

Pastor of Family
Prophet of Family
Provider
ProtectorWhat if you're gay?

[Don't panic]

Ehhh, y'all are just messin' around, huntin' boogers in this kak about "obedient". Think of it in terms of "loyalty to the salt". Obedient to the ones you hire out to, until you figure they don't merit your loyalty.

Then again, with the Boy Sprouts, they start in at age 12. At age 12, obedience to one's elders is expected. Was around all my relatives, anyway. :)

Ever have an uncle or a teacher who could give you "that look"? The one which had you knowing beyond the shadow of a doubt that you'd screwed up, big time? That what you oughta do wuz crawl back under your flat rock?

:D, 'Rat

i would have thought that for you of all people a 'free spirit' trait would be more important than an "obedience" one. they are quite opposite in my view.

anyways here is my list of values i am trying to teach my kids

honesty
compassion
accountability
respect
flexibility
independence

[Bobdude161]

The one person who is manliest of them all is Jesus Christ and I always look to Him as a man's man.

He is humble, patient, came from Heaven to earth to serve and die for His bride (the church), puts others before himself, a true leader and so much more!

So us men must be a servant, provider for our families. Not just providing financially, but emotionally, spiritually and physically (and some other -allys). Put God first, family next, then yourself is dead last. Which means if your job as a high paid engineer is stealing time away from your wife and kids and tearing your family apart, quit your job and find another one. A career doesn't have any value compared to being a father. Or if you have a favorite hobby that is doing the same, give it up. I'm getting married soon and I am reminding myself everyday that that's what I need to be and this verse tells me of what a genuine LOVING father/husband is:

1 Corinthians 13
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

[renewed]

The one person who is manliest of them all is Jesus Christ and I always look to Him as a man's man.

He is humble, patient, came from Heaven to earth to serve and die for His bride (the church), puts others before himself, a true leader and so much more!

So us men must be a servant, provider for our families. Not just providing financially, but emotionally, spiritually and physically (and some other -allys). Put God first, family next, then yourself is dead last. Which means if your job as a high paid engineer is stealing time away from your wife and kids and tearing your family apart, quit your job and find another one. A career doesn't have any value compared to being a father. Or if you have a favorite hobby that is doing the same, give it up. I'm getting married soon and I am reminding myself everyday that that's what I need to be and this verse tells me of what a genuine LOVING father/husband is:

+1billion.

[Gelfin]

i would have thought that for you of all people a 'free spirit' trait would be more important than an "obedience" one. they are quite opposite in my view.

I would argue that a "real man" (or mature, rational moral agent, if you prefer) knows how to lead and how to follow. Doing the right thing could require either or a measure of both. Being only capable of one or the other bespeaks an ego issue of one sort or another.

[Desertrat]

I'm about the freest spirit I know. :) But my ego's not involved in the work deal. If a six-year-old kid is the expert, I'll be obedient to his instructions. You know, like how to program a VCR.

My obedience is nowhere near being an unlimited thing. Working with others, it often makes sense to be obedient to the one who has the know-how. And one thing about life itsownself: Ya gotta be able to work with others. Limit your ego to the quality of your work--and do it well enough that it speaks for itself. That ain't no bad lesson, right there, come to think of it. :)

[Don't panic]

I would argue that a "real man" (or mature, rational moral agent, if you prefer) knows how to lead and how to follow. Doing the right thing could require either or a measure of both. Being only capable of one or the other bespeaks an ego issue of one sort or another.

I'm about the freest spirit I know. :) But my ego's not involved in the work deal. If a six-year-old kid is the expert, I'll be obedient to his instructions. You know, like how to program a VCR.

My obedience is nowhere near being an unlimited thing. Working with others, it often makes sense to be obedient to the one who has the know-how. And one thing about life itsownself: Ya gotta be able to work with others. Limit your ego to the quality of your work--and do it well enough that it speaks for itself. That ain't no bad lesson, right there, come to think of it. :)

agreed on both counts, except these concepts have nothing to do with 'obedience' which by definition is submission to someone authority without questioning. 'following' others when 'they know better' is not obedience, it is respect of their judgement and honesty about your own.

[macswitcha2]

I can make stuff up to. Let's please not go there in a thread that is (so far) productive and helpful.

Sorry that you don't feel my answer productive and helpful.

[Disc Golfer]

That and a pair of testicles..

[R.Perez]

That and a pair of testicles..


DAMMIT! You beat me to it.

The dude abides.