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zimv20
Aug 19, 2004, 02:03 PM
link (http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/business/AP-United-Pensions.html?hp)


By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Filed at 2:27 p.m. ET

CHICAGO (AP) -- Cash-strapped United Airlines said in a bankruptcy court filing Thursday that it ``likely'' will be necessary to terminate and replace its employee pension plans.

The carrier cited the size of further cost cuts and the need to find bankruptcy-exit financing as reasons for such a drastic move.

The filing came a day before a federal bankruptcy court hearing on United's pension plans, which the company announced last month it would no longer contribute to while in Chapter 11. That action has been assailed by United's unions and challenged by the government's pension-protection agency as violating federal pension law.

In its court filing, United cited the government's recent decision to reject its bid for a $1.6 billion loan guarantee along with sky-high jet fuel prices. The Elk Grove Village, Ill.-based airline said it ``must have the cash flow and liquidity that the financial markets are willing to finance.''

``We have taken every effort to restructure our business without affecting accrued pension benefits, and will continue to explore every other option,'' the company said in the 26-page filing. ``However, given the magnitude of further cost reductions needed to create a viable business plan and attract exit financing, termination and replacement of all our defined benefit pension plans likely will be required.''

If United ends its four employee pension funds, it would represent the largest pension default ever by an airline. The action would dump billions of dollars in future pension obligations onto the already-strapped Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp.

The agency said last week that United's pension plans are underfunded by $8.3 billion.

The possibility of such a move surfaced last month when United, facing $725 million in 2004 payments to the funds alone and over $4 billion by 2008, defaulted on a payment and announced the cutoff in contributions.

The court filing did not outline possible replacements for the company's defined-benefit pensions.

``No final decisions have been made,'' spokeswoman Jean Medina said. ``We are still in the process of reviewing that.''



vwcruisn
Aug 19, 2004, 02:31 PM
link (http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/business/AP-United-Pensions.html?hp)


I just used all my united frequent flyer miles and went to hawaii :D

I didnt want to risk losing them with all of uniteds troubles right now.

blackfox
Aug 19, 2004, 04:09 PM
Well, fwiw...

my mother, who worked as a flight-attendant/stewardess for United for 14 years (60's and 70's), lost her pension a year before she was of eligible age. Just *poof* gone...in the "restructuring" of the previous United bail-out. Paid money in for a decade-and-a-half, didn't receive jack...I asked her how they could do that to her and her contemporaries, some of whom worked for much longer (30+ years)...she just shrugged...

Anecdotal, I admit, but seems criminal to me...

Desertrat
Aug 19, 2004, 10:15 PM
People are living too long. They're (we're) collecting too much money. Nationwide, pensions are underfunded to the tune of some $450 billion. "Unfunded liability". Social Insecurity is in even worse shape.

Datum: For every car FoMoCo sells, $1,300 goes into the pension fund. I'd bet it's not enough...Regardless, the rising costs of funding pensions and of providing health insurance (ignoring other regulatory costs) are primary reasons for the low profitability of US-based corporations.

Check out Gary North's website. His "Reality Check" Issue 370 for August 17, 2004, speaks to this very issue of pension funds. The numbers are there as to return on investment in order that any pension fund be self-sustaining. Reality is, as usual, much less optimistic than those who've set up the funds, insofar as annual percentage growth rate.

'Rat

Thanatoast
Aug 19, 2004, 10:28 PM
I agree with blackfox, I don't see how this isn't criminal. If one party breaks a contract, isn't that illegal? If United goes out of business, isn't that the free market at work? Maybe such a thing would allow the other airlines to take up the slack and make their own pension contributions.

By the way Desertrat, I like your complaint. "People are living too long." :) It's not the corporation's fault for negotiating poorly, or not planning sufficiently for the future, it's those darn senior citizens that just won't croak! :p Now, that may not have been your intention when posting, but it was pretty amusing.

mactastic
Aug 19, 2004, 10:29 PM
Is that the fault of the people who worked for those pension funds under what turn out to be false pretenses? If I promise to pay someone money and I can't come up with it when the time comes, what happens to little old me?

blackfox
Aug 19, 2004, 10:45 PM
Is that the fault of the people who worked for those pension funds under what turn out to be false pretenses? If I promise to pay someone money and I can't come up with it when the time comes, what happens to little old me?
that's rhetorical right?...

If not, if I am following correctly...it means you are *********.

Desertrat
Aug 19, 2004, 10:47 PM
Thanatoast, in the early daze of Social Security, us Old Farts collected for some three to five years, on average--or so I've read, but disremember the source. Anyhow, multitudes of Gray Panthers are well up into their eighties and nineties--which means lots of nursing home support costs from Medicaid. The same problem exists for corporations as well as for the US government...

mac, it's called "bankruptcy", as in certain airlines and other corporations. The only way an airline can stay solvent is to raise fares and freight rates. If other airlines play cut-throat and don't raise their own fares, insolvency occurs. The other airlines face the same problem, of course, but they all hope they can get enough share of the business of the failed airline that they can keep on going.

For a while.

And then fuel costs go up some more...

(Somebody once asked why the CEO of an airline got a $9 million income, when the company had lost $100 million. "He cut our losses from a billion down to a hundred million, so we gave him one percent of the savings.") Just thought I'd throw that in there...

:), 'Rat