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View Full Version : Toyota halts sales of vehicles due to safety defect


DakotaGuy
Jan 26, 2010, 10:46 PM
"In an unprecedented auto-industry move — but echoing the massive Tylenol drug recall of 1982 — Toyota told its U.S. dealers Tuesday to immediately quit selling the new and used cars and trucks that it recalled on Jan. 21 because their throttles could stick open.

Toyota also said it will quit building 2010 versions of those models on Monday and that the halt will last until it finds a remedy for the stuck-throttle problem. That could take weeks, the company previously said, but it gave no forecast Tuesday."

Read the entire article at this link:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2010-01-26-toyota_N.htm

leomac08
Jan 27, 2010, 12:12 AM
My family owns 2 toyotas

a 2004 Toyota Highlander and a 2007 Toyota Matrix.....luckily they're not in the list of wanted cars FTW.:D

yg17
Jan 27, 2010, 07:49 AM
It could take weeks? How hard is it to design a pedal that doesn't get caught in the floor mat? Can't they just use the pedal design from one of their unaffected cars? Sounds like a bunch of morons working in the Toyota engineering department to me, which explains why their cars are so boring and bland :D

Sdashiki
Jan 27, 2010, 07:55 AM
It could take weeks? How hard is it to design a pedal that doesn't get caught in the floor mat? Can't they just use the pedal design from one of their unaffected cars? Sounds like a bunch of morons working in the Toyota engineering department to me, which explains why their cars are so boring and bland :D

Does this mean it DOES have the same issue as the floor mat problem:

The sticking-throttle problem involves only vehicles using accelerator-pedal assemblies from CTS, a component supplier, Toyota says. Some Camry plants, for example, use assemblies from another supplier, and those cars will still be made and sold.

edge540
Jan 27, 2010, 08:14 AM
This is seperate from the Floor Mat problem. This is an actual issue with the design of the gas pedal assembly. Im sure some engineers are working overtime trying to correct this issue.

From CNN:


The situation is rare, according to Toyota, but can occur when accelerator pedal mechanisms become worn. The problem will usually develop gradually, Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons said. The pedal may become harder to press and may become slower to return when released. In the worst cases, it may become stuck in a partially depressed position.

yg17
Jan 27, 2010, 08:26 AM
This is seperate from the Floor Mat problem. This is an actual issue with the design of the gas pedal assembly. Im sure some engineers are working overtime trying to correct this issue.

From CNN:

Ah, my bad, I assumed it was the floor mat issue (which may be the biggest fail in automotive engineering in the history of the automobile).

SteveG4Cube
Jan 27, 2010, 08:33 AM
I'm amazed that this floor mat BS has actually been taken seriously. It was a cover up to buy them time to try and fix the real problem. There are testimonies of dealership employees pulling in brand new cars to prep for delivery and having the throttle stick wide open. In case you don't know, when a new car is delivered to a dealership the floor mats are wrapped in plastic IN THE TRUNK.

The real issue is that they're using drive-by-wire throttle, so some computer is glitching and locking the throttle open. Pumping the pedal will have zero effect. Toyota is not the first manufacturer whose cars with DBW have had problems like this, but they're the most widespread.

steve2112
Jan 27, 2010, 08:49 AM
It looks like this is going to be very painful for Toyota. The Wall Street Journal is saying between $446-$502 million per week that production is shut down. OUCH!

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704094304575028883557097968.html?mod=WSJ_latestheadlines

Artofilm
Jan 27, 2010, 09:09 AM
and that is why I don't buy Japanese cars. Better quality my @ss, hey everybody, lets all go buy cars that the throttle get stuck in WOT!

quagmire
Jan 27, 2010, 09:38 AM
I'm amazed that this floor mat BS has actually been taken seriously. It was a cover up to buy them time to try and fix the real problem. There are testimonies of dealership employees pulling in brand new cars to prep for delivery and having the throttle stick wide open. In case you don't know, when a new car is delivered to a dealership the floor mats are wrapped in plastic IN THE TRUNK.

The real issue is that they're using drive-by-wire throttle, so some computer is glitching and locking the throttle open. Pumping the pedal will have zero effect. Toyota is not the first manufacturer whose cars with DBW have had problems like this, but they're the most widespread.

Most cars today are drive by wire.

What bothers me more about this is Toyota has been said to be trying to hide these defects which I believe they are/were being investigated for. It seems like Toyota has become the GM, Ford, and Chrysler of the 80's if these allegations are true.

ucfgrad93
Jan 27, 2010, 09:43 AM
It looks like this is going to be very painful for Toyota. The Wall Street Journal is saying between $446-$502 million per week that production is shut down. OUCH!

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704094304575028883557097968.html?mod=WSJ_latestheadlines

Agreed, this is really going to hurt them.

steve2112
Jan 27, 2010, 09:44 AM
Most cars today are drive by wire.

What bothers me more about this is Toyota has been said to be trying to hide these defects which I believe they are/were being investigated for. It seems like Toyota has become the GM, Ford, and Chrysler of the 80's if these allegations are true.

Yeah, that opinion has been floating around for a few years. It seems in their quest to become the #1 automaker, Toyota has let their quality slip. They were willing to do anything to get there and stay there.

Sdashiki
Jan 27, 2010, 09:49 AM
Can I get some sources on this "many cars are DBW" today mentality?

Not that I dont believe it, I just never thought a company would make something more expensive when the cheaper option is not only easier, but safer.

davegregory
Jan 27, 2010, 10:00 AM
Can I get some sources on this "many cars are DBW" today mentality?

Not that I dont believe it, I just never thought a company would make something more expensive when the cheaper option is not only easier, but safer.

Well here's the wikipedia link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drive_by_wire. Basically the advantages are that you can get newer technologies such as adaptive cruise control and electronic steering control. Also with Steering by wire you get systems like park assist, etc.

steve2112
Jan 27, 2010, 10:19 AM
Well here's the wikipedia link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drive_by_wire. Basically the advantages are that you can get newer technologies such as adaptive cruise control and electronic steering control. Also with Steering by wire you get systems like park assist, etc.

Yeah, so when the computer crashes, it REALLY crashes! :)

Sdashiki
Jan 27, 2010, 10:25 AM
Well here's the wikipedia link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drive_by_wire. Basically the advantages are that you can get newer technologies such as adaptive cruise control and electronic steering control. Also with Steering by wire you get systems like park assist, etc.

IOW...there is not proof DBW is at all the reason for this.

SteveG4Cube
Jan 27, 2010, 10:59 AM
http://suddenacceleration.com/

dXTC
Jan 27, 2010, 03:27 PM
I wonder how many schadenfreude-fueled celebrations are going on over at Honda, Nissan, and other competitors right now...

*schadenfreude: amusement/pleasure derived from others' misfortune. Figured I'd save some visits over to Wiktionary...

fotografica
Jan 27, 2010, 04:29 PM
GM didn't waste any time:
General Motors launched a campaign today to attract owners of Toyota vehicles worried about the ongoing recall over sticking accelerator pedals.
The GM incentive program, which will run through the end of February, includes:

• Toyota lease holders can get up to $1,000 in lease payments to terminate their Toyota lease and buy or lease a GM vehicle. It applies to Chevrolet, Cadillac, Buick and GMC vehicles.

• Financing buyers can get zero percent interest rates for 60 months on most GM vehicles.

• Cash buyers can get $1,000 down-payment assistance to get into a GM vehicle.

“It applies to any Toyota owner,” Hill said.
http://freep.com/article/20100127/BUSINESS01/100127057/1318/GM-jump-starts-campaign-to-lure-Toyota-owners

wheezy
Jan 27, 2010, 06:11 PM
GM didn't waste any time:

http://freep.com/article/20100127/BUSINESS01/100127057/1318/GM-jump-starts-campaign-to-lure-Toyota-owners

I didn't think GM had the money to do this. But here's the easy solution.

IF YOUR PEDAL STICKS, PUT THE CAR IN NEUTRAL AND PULL OVER. If people don't know/weren't aware of what Neutral is, then the Drivers "Education" program in this country has taken a complete nose-dive.

There is honestly no excuse to die over this problem should it happen to you. I hear of people suddenly avoiding driving their cars. It's honestly more dangerous to get a tire blow at at 70MPH on the freeway than to have this happen to you. And it's probably more likely to have that blowout than your pedal stick.

Cars are machines like anything else - Prone to failure. If our education system didn't suck and taught people how things work along with how to work them, we wouldn't have nearly as many accidents in this country.

quagmire
Jan 27, 2010, 06:23 PM
I didn't think GM had the money to do this. But here's the easy solution.

IF YOUR PEDAL STICKS, PUT THE CAR IN NEUTRAL AND PULL OVER. If people don't know/weren't aware of what Neutral is, then the Drivers "Education" program in this country has taken a complete nose-dive.

There is honestly no excuse to die over this problem should it happen to you. I hear of people suddenly avoiding driving their cars. It's honestly more dangerous to get a tire blow at at 70MPH on the freeway than to have this happen to you. And it's probably more likely to have that blowout than your pedal stick.

Cars are machines like anything else - Prone to failure. If our education system didn't suck and taught people how things work along with how to work them, we wouldn't have nearly as many accidents in this country.

GM is sitting on ~$38 billion. So it has the money to do it. ;)

It isn't hard to shift into neutral. I guess panic hit these people and they didn't think? And if you hold the brake pedal it will stop the car even at WOT( IE: Hold the brake pedal down. Don't pump it. That will just wear out the pads without doing much in stopping you.....). C&D did a test on this. The brakes were able to bring a 550 HP Mustang to a stop at WOT.

And I agree with the education part...... Some idiot today in a 45 MPH going 50 MPH just randomly slowed down to 25 MPH when going through a green light.... I also love how people stop on the on ramp on a highway..... Yeah, going 40 MPH will make it easier for you to merge then going 0 MPH.......

yg17
Jan 27, 2010, 07:15 PM
IF YOUR PEDAL STICKS, PUT THE CAR IN NEUTRAL AND PULL OVER. If people don't know/weren't aware of what Neutral is, then the Drivers "Education" program in this country has taken a complete nose-dive.

It's the decline of the manual transmission to blame IMO. If you drive an auto, you have to worry about park, reverse and drive. I'd say 98% of automatic drivers have no reason to ever put their car in neutral save for the occasional drive through a car wash. They may teach you what to do in drivers ed, but in a panic situation like that, is someone going to remember what they learned possibly decades ago when they were 15?

I drive a manual, if I need to stop, putting the clutch in and shifting to neutral is just a given. And I doubt you will ever see a fatality as a result of an accident involving a manual transmission car with it's throttle stuck at WOT.

fotografica
Jan 27, 2010, 07:45 PM
Toyota to cut parts spending by 30 percent
12/22/2009, 11:11 AM
By Drew Johnson

Toyota – the world’s largest automaker – is forecasting its second consecutive year of operating losses, prompting the Japanese automaker to request heavy discounts from its parts suppliers. Toyota is looking to cut about 30 percent from its annual parts costs.

In order to return the company to profitability, Toyota is asking its parts suppliers to cut the prices of some parts by 30-40 percent, according to Japan’s Asahi daily. The price cuts are beig request for vehicles scheduled to hit the market by 2013.

Additionally, Toyota will make the switch to less expensive parts and materials. It remains to be seen how the less expensive parts and materials will affect the automaker’s overall quality, but cheaper rarely equates to better in the automotive world.

The price cut request is Toyota’s largest in 10 years. Although price reductions will be seen in vehicles headed for established markets, Toyota’s main reason for the cuts is to remain price competitive in developing regions.
http://www.leftlanenews.com/toyota-to-cut-parts-spending-by-30-percent.html



Toyota knew of sticky-throttle problem late last year
Toyota says it knew there were problems with accelerator-pedal assemblies from supplier CTS late last year, but not enough to warrant a recall.
Toyota says the problem appears to be due to premature wear of some mechanical parts in the CTS throttle assemblies. Hanson says that means new vehicles should be risk-free, at least long enough for Toyota to come up with a fix.

Throttle-pedal assemblies from Toyota's other supplier, Denso, are not all interchangeable, eliminating that as a quick-fix solution, Toyota says.

CTS also supplies throttle assemblies to Honda, Nissan and Mitsubishi. Those companies say their designs are different and pose no risk of sticking open.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2010-01-25-toyotalong_st_N.htm

dmr727
Jan 27, 2010, 09:58 PM
This is a pretty good lesson on how a good reputation can be destroyed in short order. I can't tell whether this is plain misfortune, or the result of cost cutting, but holy crap this couldn't be much worse for Toyota. :(

quagmire
Jan 27, 2010, 10:20 PM
This is a pretty good lesson on how a good reputation can be destroyed in short order. I can't tell whether this is plain misfortune, or the result of cost cutting, but holy crap this couldn't be much worse for Toyota. :(

While this is the first catastrophic recall in my memory that has hit Toyota that is rivaling Ford's cruise control switch dilemma, this isn't the first time Toyota's have been plagued with problems recently. You got the 3.0 V6 engine sludge problems, the 2005 Avalon problems( can't remember specifically what it was), 2007 Camry 6 speed auto problems( refused to shift into 2nd and 6th gear), 2007 Tundra camshaft problems, transmission issues, horrible bed flex( weak C-Pillar frame design in the rear which allows this flex), tailgate bending, and just recently heard about is frame rusting issues on older Tacoma's. Toyota's quality has slipped.

dmr727
Jan 27, 2010, 10:23 PM
^^^ could be - I'm not nearly as knowledgeable of the auto industry as you are. I've just never heard of an auto company actually telling dealers to stop selling cars. That's pretty amazing to me.

jaw04005
Jan 27, 2010, 11:14 PM
My grandmother just bought an ’09 Toyota Camry last month and she has been complaining about the gearshift being “sticky.”

I’ll have to tell her to get it checked for recalls while she’s at the dealer.

DakotaGuy
Jan 27, 2010, 11:20 PM
^^^ could be - I'm not nearly as knowledgeable of the auto industry as you are. I've just never heard of an auto company actually telling dealers to stop selling cars. That's pretty amazing to me.

It appears they were forced to take this action.

U.S. auto safety regulators said today that Toyota was legally required to stop production on eight models under recall for faulty accelerator pedals.

http://www.freep.com/article/20100127/BUSINESS01/100127023/1318/U.S.-Toyota-had-to-stop-troubled-production

quagmire
Jan 27, 2010, 11:24 PM
My grandmother just bought an ’09 Toyota Camry last month and she has been complaining about the gearshift being “sticky.”

I’ll have to tell her to get it checked for recalls while she’s at the dealer.

Gearshift is not the accelerator pedal. So it isn't effected by this recall. The problem is the gas pedal assembly. Over time the part wears out and will not return back to the idle position when your foot releases the pedal. Hence it being stuck being open( now if you panic and stomp on the gas pedal thinking it might work, then you'll get to WOT).

jaw04005
Jan 28, 2010, 12:06 AM
Gearshift is not the accelerator pedal. So it isn't effected by this recall. The problem is the gas pedal assembly. Over time the part wears out and will not return back to the idle position when your foot releases the pedal. Hence it being stuck being open( now if you panic and stomp on the gas pedal thinking it might work, then you'll get to WOT).

Heh. I know the gear shift is not the accelerator pedal. :D She is going to the dealer to get her new car’s gear shift fixed, so I told her to get her car checked for recalls while she is at the dealer (since only some ’09 and ’10 Camry’s are covered under the recall) instead of waiting around for them to contact her.

wheezy
Jan 28, 2010, 12:49 AM
I'll still buy them :) Proud owner of 4 in my lifetime (only 4 cars I've ever owned):

1972 LandCruiser FJ40
1996 Camry LE
1985 LandCruiser FJ60
2002 Camry XLE V6 (Current)

The biggest issue I've had is the AC Compressor is crap from the '01/'02/'03ish years, need replacing after <100K Miles. Although, I haven't replaced it yet, but it growls like a bear. Everything else is working like a champion, like a Toyota should.

GSMiller
Jan 28, 2010, 01:09 PM
I didn't think GM had the money to do this. But here's the easy solution.

IF YOUR PEDAL STICKS, PUT THE CAR IN NEUTRAL AND PULL OVER. If people don't know/weren't aware of what Neutral is, then the Drivers "Education" program in this country has taken a complete nose-dive.

There is honestly no excuse to die over this problem should it happen to you. I hear of people suddenly avoiding driving their cars. It's honestly more dangerous to get a tire blow at at 70MPH on the freeway than to have this happen to you. And it's probably more likely to have that blowout than your pedal stick.

Cars are machines like anything else - Prone to failure. If our education system didn't suck and taught people how things work along with how to work them, we wouldn't have nearly as many accidents in this country.

GM is sitting on ~$38 billion. So it has the money to do it. ;)

It isn't hard to shift into neutral. I guess panic hit these people and they didn't think? And if you hold the brake pedal it will stop the car even at WOT( IE: Hold the brake pedal down. Don't pump it. That will just wear out the pads without doing much in stopping you.....). C&D did a test on this. The brakes were able to bring a 550 HP Mustang to a stop at WOT.

And I agree with the education part...... Some idiot today in a 45 MPH going 50 MPH just randomly slowed down to 25 MPH when going through a green light.... I also love how people stop on the on ramp on a highway..... Yeah, going 40 MPH will make it easier for you to merge then going 0 MPH.......

Toyota automobiles will not allow you to shift into neutral once you go above (I believe) 5,000 RPMs.

Sdashiki
Jan 28, 2010, 01:22 PM
Toyota automobiles will not allow you to shift into neutral once you go above (I believe) 5,000 RPMs.

I fail to see a need for this...explain or reference?

quagmire
Jan 28, 2010, 03:27 PM
Toyota automobiles will not allow you to shift into neutral once you go above (I believe) 5,000 RPMs.

Brakes should still be enough to bring you to a stop at WOT. C&D did a test on it. If that fails, shut down the car. You may lose power steering and brakes, but they will still work without the power assist. Just don't do any abrupt movements with the steering wheel to prevent the ignition lock from engaging.

wheezy
Jan 28, 2010, 08:40 PM
Toyota automobiles will not allow you to shift into neutral once you go above (I believe) 5,000 RPMs.

I'll have to give that a check in my Camry tomorrow, it doesn't really make any sense to me.

If that's the case, then here's the solution:

Turn off (one click, not all the way to lock steering)
Put in Neutral
Turn back on to regain power steering/power brakes (if needed)

A few more steps, but still, if people understood how a car operated and were taught what to do in emergencies there would be far less fatalities.

I'm SCUBA certified and we spend so little time learning about how to actually dive compared to what we learned about in regards to emergencies and how to handle them.

Any idiot can drive a car, so education should really focus on emergencies and what to do.

dukebound85
Jan 28, 2010, 08:44 PM
GM didn't waste any time:

http://freep.com/article/20100127/BUSINESS01/100127057/1318/GM-jump-starts-campaign-to-lure-Toyota-owners

hmmm any toyota owner eh?

im driving a 1990 celica....and may be looking for a new car haha

I didn't think GM had the money to do this. But here's the easy solution.

IF YOUR PEDAL STICKS, PUT THE CAR IN NEUTRAL AND PULL OVER. If people don't know/weren't aware of what Neutral is, then the Drivers "Education" program in this country has taken a complete nose-dive.

There is honestly no excuse to die over this problem should it happen to you. I hear of people suddenly avoiding driving their cars. It's honestly more dangerous to get a tire blow at at 70MPH on the freeway than to have this happen to you. And it's probably more likely to have that blowout than your pedal stick.

Cars are machines like anything else - Prone to failure. If our education system didn't suck and taught people how things work along with how to work them, we wouldn't have nearly as many accidents in this country.
If no load on engine, wouldnt it simply redline and effectivly blow the engine?

I suppose you could always just turn the key off after coast to a stop in neutral

yg17
Jan 28, 2010, 08:45 PM
If that's the case, then here's the solution:

Turn off (one click, not all the way to lock steering)
Put in Neutral
Turn back on to regain power steering/power brakes (if needed)

Even in gear at WOT, the brakes will stop you (it might cook them a little bit), or at least get you down under 5,000 RPMs to get it into neutral, those above steps aren't even really necessary.

quagmire
Jan 28, 2010, 08:54 PM
If no load on engine, wouldnt it simply redline and effectivly blow the engine?

Magic of software. It will prevent the engine from going over redline and blowing it.

And good thing about GM vehicles is that when in neutral, the engine won't rev past 4,000 RPM's.

fotografica
Jan 28, 2010, 09:04 PM
Magic of software. It will prevent the engine from going over redline and blowing it. .

Seems like what governors and kickdown linkages did in the "old days"

quagmire
Jan 28, 2010, 09:29 PM
I find this interesting...

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/01/28/did-nhtsa-know-of-toyota-woes-back-in-2004/


Toyota= old GM?

fotografica
Jan 28, 2010, 09:37 PM
Toyota has a lot of things to deal with these days...The Tacoma frame debacle looks like it's going beyond 95-00 Tacomas..Not to mention that it migrated over to first gen Tundras...

Counterfit
Jan 28, 2010, 10:15 PM
IThe real issue is that they're using drive-by-wire throttle, so some computer is glitching and locking the throttle open.
No, it's the actual pedal itself, rather than an ECU glitch. If the parts were available to the dealers, it would be incredibly simple to fix. I've taken the gas pedal out of my car before. Two bolts and a wire harness.
and that is why I don't buy Japanese cars. Better quality my @ss, hey everybody, lets all go buy cars that the throttle get stuck in WOT!
Yeah, because Toyota is the only car company from Japan, and no other manufacturer in the rest of the world has ever had a huge recall...

If you insist on talking about your ass, I must insist that you remove your head from it first.
If no load on engine, wouldnt it simply redline and effectivly blow the engine?
I'm willing to bet that the vast majority non-exotics/supercars have some overhead beyond the redline. I know several people with the same model car as me who have raised the redline from 6400RPM to 7000, with no ill effects.
I suppose you could always just turn the key off after coast to a stop in neutral

Some of the recalled cars have the push-button, which has to be held for 3 seconds to shut the car off. :confused: What exactly is the appeal of this button, to make it seem like your Camry or Accord is something like a full-blown race car that has a 15-minute (or more) startup procedure (and only takes one quick switch flip to shut off)?

steve2112
Jan 28, 2010, 11:28 PM
I'm willing to bet that the vast majority non-exotics/supercars have some overhead beyond the redline. I know several people with the same model car as me who have raised the redline from 6400RPM to 7000, with no ill effects.


Some of the recalled cars have the push-button, which has to be held for 3 seconds to shut the car off. :confused: What exactly is the appeal of this button, to make it seem like your Camry or Accord is something like a full-blown race car that has a 15-minute (or more) startup procedure (and only takes one quick switch flip to shut off)?

Yeah, in most cars, the redline is a caution. Most manufacturers purposely set it low. So, no, the engine isn't going to grenade if you go over it.

I hate those freakin' pushbutton starters, and the things are showing up everywhere! As you said, there is no simple turning the key to kill the engine in an emergency. Not to mention the special key fobs are usually terribly expensive should you lose or break one. I hate the things. What exactly is wrong with keys? I'm also glad I have a manual transmission. Try stopping me from shift that one into neutral!

I don't mean to get off on a rant here, but...I hate a lot of this useless stuff going into modern cars. It's one thing I love about my car. There's no remote key fob or push button starter. No adaptive cruise control or lane departure system. No huge, distracting screen in the middle of the dash. (Playing movies, no less.) How about people learn to drive? Stop yapping on the phone, putting on makeup, shaving, stuffing your face, or reading the newspaper and DRIVE! Pay attention to your surroundings. It's not that hard.

Counterfit
Jan 29, 2010, 06:24 PM
I wouldn't mind having adaptive cruise control, thanks to people not being able to keep a consistent speed while refusing to move out of the left lane. :mad:

AngryApple
Jan 29, 2010, 07:38 PM
I was under the impression that the car would suddenly start accelerating on its own and continue to increase in speed. Guess I'm wrong.

I was eyeballin' that Camry...now it has a bad connotation for me.

Counterfit
Jan 29, 2010, 09:49 PM
Now THAT would be a software glitch in a DBW car.

RITZFit
Jan 29, 2010, 11:18 PM
I wonder how many heads rolled over this fiasco :p . We have a 07 4Runner. Even though its not on the list I guess we'll still be watching it a little closer now...

ayeying
Jan 30, 2010, 01:27 AM
Okay, a few things.

If your car is stuck in WOT and you cannot shift to neutral, then hit the brakes. Most modern cars have "launch control" even if they don't announce it or promote it, basically if your brakes are applied heavily the acceleration should be limited regardless of what speed you're at.

If your car is stuck in WOT and you can shift to neutral, then shift to neutral (NOT PARK). Your engine will bounce off the limiter at the upper RPMs but should stay under the redline unless you're manual, but seriously, a blown engine beats a crash any day. Also, most cars should allow you to dump it into neutral regardless of what RPM you're at. I know I've accidentally shifted to neutral instead of the next gear even at 7000rpm on an automatic.

Under most circumstances you should NOT SHUT OFF THE ENGINE. You lose literally everything power, which in modern cars include brakes and steering. The only times I'd say its safe is if you're in a straight road. There you can shut off the engine and slowly apply the brakes to slow to a stop/pull over. I've done a mid run @ 60 mph and shut off the engine before, it's safe only if road conditions allows it.

danny_w
Jan 30, 2010, 09:16 PM
I know that Toyota says that the accelerator problem applies to certain (most) Toyota models, but what about Lexus and Scion models? Do any of these models use the same part supplier as the recalled cars? I notice that Toyota has been mum about this (at least I have not heard anything). I did hear on the news mention of Lexus also being affected, but no specifics.

SactoGuy18
Jan 31, 2010, 12:45 AM
I know that Toyota says that the accelerator problem applies to certain (most) Toyota models, but what about Lexus and Scion models? Do any of these models use the same part supplier as the recalled cars? I notice that Toyota has been mum about this (at least I have not heard anything). I did hear on the news mention of Lexus also being affected, but no specifics.

I believe most Lexus and Scion models are NOT affected because these models are directly imported from Toyota's assembly lines in Japan, and as such do not use CTS as the accelerator pedal supplier.

danny_w
Jan 31, 2010, 01:03 AM
I believe most Lexus and Scion models are NOT affected because these models are directly imported from Toyota's assembly lines in Japan, and as such do not use CTS as the accelerator pedal supplier.
Thank you, I didn't know if that was the case or not. My wife has a 2009 Scion xD and I was concerned; I'll call the dealer just to make sure though.

Counterfit
Jan 31, 2010, 03:28 AM
If your car is stuck in WOT and you cannot shift to neutral, then hit the brakes. Most modern cars have "launch control" even if they don't announce it or promote it, basically if your brakes are applied heavily the acceleration should be limited regardless of what speed you're at.

I'm hard-pressed to think of a car not built for drag racing that can't do this.

quagmire
Jan 31, 2010, 09:06 AM
If your car is stuck in WOT and you cannot shift to neutral, then hit the brakes. Most modern cars have "launch control" even if they don't announce it or promote it, basically if your brakes are applied heavily the acceleration should be limited regardless of what speed you're at.


I think you're talking about when the brake pedal is hit, the ECU gives it priority over the engine and reduces the power. Toyota products do not have this at this time. Toyota though said newer models will have it and they will reflash the older models with it.

quagmire
Feb 2, 2010, 04:56 PM
Throttlegate continues.

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f37/breaking-feds-investigating-toyota-electronics-over-acceleration-problem-88668/

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/RunawayToyotas/waxman-toyota-told-us-gas-pedals-problem/story?id=9730328

iGav
Feb 3, 2010, 06:17 AM
What exactly is the appeal of this button

Not sure in this application… but they were originally a feature of keyless integration (proximity door locks, keyless ignition etc) it's just another step in technology… hand crank/key/keyless. The same cannot be said of Key/keyless combinations though. ;)

I think you're talking about when the brake pedal is hit, the ECU gives it priority over the engine and reduces the power. Toyota products do not have this at this time. Toyota though said newer models will have it and they will reflash the older models with it.

One of the more mildy irritating side-effect of contemporary drive-by-wire systems, that results in decreased throttle sensitivity. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Though that's significantly less irritating than some new models ability to completely override the throttle as soon as any pressure is applied to brake pedal, meaning that you can neither heel-n-toe, nor left-foot brake. :rolleyes: :(

Sdashiki
Feb 3, 2010, 08:19 AM
Under most circumstances you should NOT SHUT OFF THE ENGINE. You lose literally everything power, which in modern cars include brakes and steering. The only times I'd say its safe is if you're in a straight road. There you can shut off the engine and slowly apply the brakes to slow to a stop/pull over. I've done a mid run @ 60 mph and shut off the engine before, it's safe only if road conditions allows it.

You dont lose brakes in the event of, say, running out of gas at highway speed. Vaccuum pressure should keep your brakes nice and solid.

Havent you ever pushed a car and someone made it difficult by holding down the brake pedal while steering it?!

But, youd then notice that, yes, you do lose power steering. But plenty of cars had/have no power steering, and going from one lane to the next isnt the same as trying to turn 90 degrees.

In other words, turning off your engine isnt ideal, but it certainly wont make the car a flying death trap with no way to stop.

GSMiller
Feb 3, 2010, 11:43 AM
I fail to see a need for this...explain or reference?

It was in an article on Left Lane News (http://www.leftlanenews.com/). Given the multitude of articles about Toyota the past few weeks, I've not been able to find it. It has something to do with Toyota wanting to prevent damage to the engine/transmission.

Rodimus Prime
Feb 3, 2010, 12:27 PM
Yeah, in most cars, the redline is a caution. Most manufacturers purposely set it low. So, no, the engine isn't going to grenade if you go over it.

I hate those freakin' pushbutton starters, and the things are showing up everywhere! As you said, there is no simple turning the key to kill the engine in an emergency. Not to mention the special key fobs are usually terribly expensive should you lose or break one. I hate the things. What exactly is wrong with keys? I'm also glad I have a manual transmission. Try stopping me from shift that one into neutral!

I don't mean to get off on a rant here, but...I hate a lot of this useless stuff going into modern cars. It's one thing I love about my car. There's no remote key fob or push button starter. No adaptive cruise control or lane departure system. No huge, distracting screen in the middle of the dash. (Playing movies, no less.) How about people learn to drive? Stop yapping on the phone, putting on makeup, shaving, stuffing your face, or reading the newspaper and DRIVE! Pay attention to your surroundings. It's not that hard.

I like push button start. Not because it all race car like but because it is really conventite. No messing with getting keys out of my pocket, it is just sit down and drive. I can also argue it is a nice safety feature particlure for women and at night when going to their cars. No risk of them digging around in their purses to find the keys. Just having the purse on them is enough to get into their cars and start it.

As for keyless entry on my car. I miss it because I lost one keyfab and my other broke. It what i use to prevent myself from locking my keys in my car because I would only lock the car with the keyfab when I was out of the car. Plus I could lock it as I walk away.

You dont lose brakes in the event of, say, running out of gas at highway speed. Vaccuum pressure should keep your brakes nice and solid.

Havent you ever pushed a car and someone made it difficult by holding down the brake pedal while steering it?!

But, youd then notice that, yes, you do lose power steering. But plenty of cars had/have no power steering, and going from one lane to the next isnt the same as trying to turn 90 degrees.

In other words, turning off your engine isnt ideal, but it certainly wont make the car a flying death trap with no way to stop.


Add to that leave your car in gear when you kill it it will reduce the amount of power loss to steering and brakes. Hell after you turn the car off you still have 1 full power brake hit and then each one after that gets weaker.

The reason leaving your car in gear is the transmission will force to engine to keep spinning and that turns all the pumps. Manual would suffer less losses than a auto but an auto would keep quite a bit of power for power steering and brakes.

InfoSecmgr
Feb 3, 2010, 01:19 PM
GM is sitting on ~$38 billion. So it has the money to do it. ;)

It isn't hard to shift into neutral. I guess panic hit these people and they didn't think? And if you hold the brake pedal it will stop the car even at WOT( IE: Hold the brake pedal down. Don't pump it. That will just wear out the pads without doing much in stopping you.....). C&D did a test on this. The brakes were able to bring a 550 HP Mustang to a stop at WOT.

And I agree with the education part...... Some idiot today in a 45 MPH going 50 MPH just randomly slowed down to 25 MPH when going through a green light.... I also love how people stop on the on ramp on a highway..... Yeah, going 40 MPH will make it easier for you to merge then going 0 MPH.......


Yes, $38 billion of which the GOVERNMENT OWNS MOST OF.

ayeying
Feb 4, 2010, 12:08 AM
I think you're talking about when the brake pedal is hit, the ECU gives it priority over the engine and reduces the power. Toyota products do not have this at this time. Toyota though said newer models will have it and they will reflash the older models with it.

You're kidding? Our 1998 CR-V has this and new Toyota cars don't?

You dont lose brakes in the event of, say, running out of gas at highway speed. Vaccuum pressure should keep your brakes nice and solid.

Havent you ever pushed a car and someone made it difficult by holding down the brake pedal while steering it?!

But, youd then notice that, yes, you do lose power steering. But plenty of cars had/have no power steering, and going from one lane to the next isnt the same as trying to turn 90 degrees.

In other words, turning off your engine isnt ideal, but it certainly wont make the car a flying death trap with no way to stop.

I don't mean you'll lose total control but I do remember last time I spun out in my RSX and the car randomly shut itself off that braking and steering was EXTREMELY difficult. Most modern cars do have power brakes, so while there is pressure that helps you slow down, it's not as effective (at least the feel, don't know the science of it) as with power... and I do believe an average joe/jane driver would do something dangerous in this type of situation... especially if they're panicking also.

Of course turning off the car isn't a death trap, but how bad is it for the engine or transmission to be running in gear and turning off the engine? Wouldn't that keep the car RUNNING since most modern engines actually turn off the fuel injectors when you let go of the gas? At least for my bike, I can shut off the fuel pump and the engine will still spark and cruise down the street, just can't accelerate, just slowly down to a stop, but that's with a manual/clutch system, not sure how the automatics would handle this.

JackMaurer
Feb 4, 2010, 12:10 AM
Buy german!

Counterfit
Feb 4, 2010, 01:09 AM
One of the more mildy irritating side-effect of contemporary drive-by-wire systems, that results in decreased throttle sensitivity. :mad: :mad: :mad:
The lag in most systems is annoying, but I'll deal with it because I can remap my throttle very easily. :D
Though that's significantly less irritating than some new models ability to completely override the throttle as soon as any pressure is applied to brake pedal, meaning that you can neither heel-n-toe, nor left-foot brake. :rolleyes: :(

Ugh. I can at least heel-n-toe.

Well, sorta. My foots too big to actually use those parts, and my attempts at left foot braking in my current car have not gone well. :o

iGav
Feb 4, 2010, 03:26 AM
You're kidding? Our 1998 CR-V has this and new Toyota cars don't?

You know... it's not a particularly desirable feature to have IMHO. Well... unless you're currently driving a Toyota of course. :p

The lag in most systems is annoying, but I'll deal with it because I can remap my throttle very easily. :D

It's particularly noticeable on turbo'd VAG cars... brake>blip the throttle>nothing>clunky down change... try again brake>punch the throttle>lag>rev's increase>turbo kicks in>airbag deploys. :eek:

Well, sorta. My foots too big to actually use those parts, and my attempts at left foot braking in my current car have not gone well. :o

I wouldn't worry... I can only heel-n-toe in certain cars as well because I can't manipulate my foot to suit all pedal placements... though Converse All Stars help enormously (flexible, good grip). ;)

Left foot braking is nothing other than practice. :) Have you tried using both feet on the brake pedal? Same principle as when you learn to drive in a dual-control car, with the examiner helping articulate the pedals. ;)

iGav
Feb 4, 2010, 03:41 AM
Actually... I was thinking about this last night, I wonder what the potential legal ramifications are if you knowingly drive a Toyota model (or a PSA and possibly Lexus soon too) that is subject to the recall, and are then involved in an accident that was caused by the known fault.

Certainly brings new meaning to their old strapline though... The car in front is a Toyota... well let's hope so. ;) :D :p

Peace
Feb 4, 2010, 01:25 PM
You can now add the Pius to that list.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35214248/ns/business-autos/

dmr727
Feb 4, 2010, 01:27 PM
I'm currently trying to figure out where Toyota's stock will bottom out - I'm guessing it'll be a good buy once it hits the floor.

rdowns
Feb 4, 2010, 02:07 PM
I'm currently trying to figure out where Toyota's stock will bottom out - I'm guessing it'll be a good buy once it hits the floor.


I've been thinking the same thing. :D

iGav
Feb 5, 2010, 07:49 AM
Actually... I was thinking about this last night, I wonder what the potential legal ramifications are if you knowingly drive a Toyota model (or a PSA and possibly Lexus soon too) that is subject to the recall, and are then involved in an accident that was caused by the known fault.

This (http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/247370/) appears to answer my concern.

...confirmed that an insured driver would still be covered for all third party damage, but that they could struggle to make a claim on damage to their own vehicle.

fun173
Feb 5, 2010, 10:56 PM
In other news, prius drivers have actually been going the speed limit

quagmire
Feb 5, 2010, 11:24 PM
In other news, prius drivers have actually been going the speed limit

In the left lane thinking they are civilian cops trying to get everyone else to slow down....... ;)

Xfujinon
Feb 6, 2010, 11:36 AM
Everyone is making this out like a giant catastrophe.

Sure, I agree it is bad. It will inconvenience a lot of people, some people will doubtlessly get into accidents, and it will be a SNAFU for insurance companies and legalese folks to wrangle out the implications on paper.

But, I am still buying a Toyota for my next car. Unless someone can convince me (with relevant non-anecdotal data and facts, of course) that a Prius is not a good buy.

This is egg on the face to Toyota, but I will remain a loyal customer. My Camry is a battle-hardened unstoppable tank. Can't say that about my past Dodge, Ford, Pontiac, or Chrysler.

Keep making awesome cars, Toyota! I don't care if people think they are boring. Cars are a piss-poor investment anyway, I want reliable and good value for the dollar.

danny_w
Feb 6, 2010, 01:31 PM
The thing that bothers me about all of this is not that Toyota had a problem (everybody does) but that they did not seem to take it seriously for 8 years and basically swept it under the rug. I am not saying that other companies aren't just as bad, but other companies don't Have Toyota's reputation for quality and reliability. I have never owned a toyota but would have definitely considered them on my short list for my next car; now I am not so sure.

quagmire
Feb 6, 2010, 02:33 PM
The thing that bothers me about all of this is not that Toyota had a problem (everybody does) but that they did not seem to take it seriously for 8 years and basically swept it under the rug. I am not saying that other companies aren't just as bad, but other companies don't Have Toyota's reputation for quality and reliability. I have never owned a toyota but would have definitely considered them on my short list for my next car; now I am not so sure.

They did the same thing for the engine sludge problem.

When this issue has been going on since at least 2004 and Toyota knowing of this problem, this is a black mark on them. What is even worse is the NHTSA also had complaints and didn't investigate it( which rumors say that is due to an ex-NHTSA employee now working at Toyota managed to get them ignored).

Now I realize every automaker is guilty of trying to hide major defects before( GM with the Corvair, etc), but they were rightfully scrutinized. But, I have been reading people going and saying that we are blowing this out of proportion, gov't conspiracy due to them owning GM,etc trying to downplay this issue. Fact is quality at Toyota has fallen with some of it due to their rapid growth. IMHO, the interior of the current Camry is cheaper then the last-gen's interior. We had a 2004 Camry as a rental, while bland the interior used decent materials and were certainly better then the American counterparts. When I was my local autoshow in 2007 and stepped inside the 2007 Camry, the interior had hard and cheap plastic. Same with the 2007 Tundra( not to mention the horrible placement of the HVAC and radio controls). The fact of the matter is that their customer base can ignore these issues without criticism will lead Toyota to not care much like the Big 3 ignored the customers back in the 80's. What these people need to learn is the best critics of a company comes from their fans. If they won't criticize Toyota, Toyota won't change.

danny_w
Feb 6, 2010, 02:42 PM
They did the same thing for the engine sludge problem.

When this issue has been going on since at least 2004 and Toyota knowing of this problem, this is a black mark on them. What is even worse is the NHTSA also had complaints and didn't investigate it( which rumors say that is due to an ex-NHTSA employee now working at Toyota managed to get them ignored).

Now I realize every automaker is guilty of trying to hide major defects before( GM with the Corvair, etc), but they were rightfully scrutinized. But, I have been reading people going and saying that we are blowing this out of proportion, gov't conspiracy due to them owning GM,etc trying to downplay this issue. Fact is quality at Toyota has fallen with some of it due to their rapid growth. IMHO, the interior of the current Camry is cheaper then the last-gen's interior. We had a 2004 Camry as a rental, while bland the interior used decent materials and were certainly better then the American counterparts. When I was my local autoshow in 2007 and stepped inside the 2007 Camry, the interior had hard and cheap plastic. Same with the 2007 Tundra( not to mention the horrible placement of the HVAC and radio controls). The fact of the matter is that their customer base can ignore these issues without criticism will lead Toyota to not care much like the Big 3 ignored the customers back in the 80's. What these people need to learn is the best critics of a company comes from their fans. If they won't criticize Toyota, Toyota won't change.
Well said. Although Toyota has always been know for plain and bland cars, at lest they were well made with generally quality materials and I always admired their cars. I happened to be at a Toyota dealership about a year ago and checked out a few of the cars in the showroom while I was there. I was shocked at how cheap everything seemed compared to the rentals that I had driven in years past. I think part of the issue like you said is that Toyota has been growing too fast to control and using cheaper materials in their cars so that now they look/feel cheaper than 80's Detroit cars; at least they still have the fit and finish that Detroit never had back then.

Dont Hurt Me
Feb 6, 2010, 02:54 PM
In other news, prius drivers have actually been going the speed limitWhile us Charger drivers have not:D Toyotas are nice but if you want bigger and power forget it. I think it sucks that they did sweep these problems under the rug for so long and now the prius issue just makes you wonder about how these corporations let their lawyers think for them. These are massive recalls.

SactoGuy18
Feb 6, 2010, 09:57 PM
A couple of comments:

1) The problem with the Prius brakes are similar to a problem Ford had recently with the Fusion Hybrid sedan--a weird feeling on the brakes as it switches from engine braking to mechanical braking. Ford fixed the problem with a software upgrade to the hybrid drivetrain computer, and it appears Toyota will do the same.

2) Toyota may have to redesign their Engine Control Unit (ECU) computer so it cuts off the throttle during braking (which is standard practice on other modern automobiles with electronic throttle controls). If it cannot be implemented in the ECU software, that could mean millions of Toyotas will need new ECU modules--a cost that could run into several billion US dollars.

quagmire
Feb 6, 2010, 10:24 PM
A couple of comments:

1) The problem with the Prius brakes are similar to a problem Ford had recently with the Fusion Hybrid sedan--a weird feeling on the brakes as it switches from engine braking to mechanical braking. Ford fixed the problem with a software upgrade to the hybrid drivetrain computer, and it appears Toyota will do the same.

2) Toyota may have to redesign their Engine Control Unit (ECU) computer so it cuts off the throttle during braking (which is standard practice on other modern automobiles with electronic throttle controls). If it cannot be implemented in the ECU software, that could mean millions of Toyotas will need new ECU modules--a cost that could run into several billion US dollars.


This is really going to be like Ford's cruise control switch problem......

I will repeat this, Toyota has reacted poorly to this. I don't find the report of millions of these vehicles being affected to be troubling( obviously it is a common part in a lot of Toyota's vehicles and the way they are selling, if the part had to be recalled, it would be a big one). It's the fact they knew about this issue possibly around 2004 and didn't do anything until the NHTSA/media forced them to. This echo's the Corvair fiasco where GM deemed it to be cheaper to deal with the lawsuits then to recall the Corvair's to fix the design flaw they had.

yg17
Feb 6, 2010, 11:30 PM
This echo's the Corvair fiasco where GM deemed it to be cheaper to deal with the lawsuits then to recall the Corvair's to fix the design flaw they had.

Just like Fight Club...

A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.

quagmire
Feb 7, 2010, 11:31 AM
I found this funny. :)

http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae229/Malicious340/toyoter.jpg

garybUK
Feb 7, 2010, 02:21 PM
Actually... I was thinking about this last night, I wonder what the potential legal ramifications are if you knowingly drive a Toyota model (or a PSA and possibly Lexus soon too) that is subject to the recall, and are then involved in an accident that was caused by the known fault.

The only PSA vehicle involved is the 107/C1/Aygo of which is the same car and the only joint venture between PSA & Toyota. This only affects Peugeot/Citroen 107/C1's with the top end ABS systems which only accounts for about 1k vehicles.

For people outside Europe the C1/107/Aygo is a small city vehicle that gets around 70mpg with a 1 litre engine and 68 horsepower :P

iGav
Feb 7, 2010, 03:33 PM
The only PSA vehicle involved is the 107/C1/Aygo of which is the same car and the only joint venture between PSA & Toyota.

Yup. Though despite platform sharing, they're still considered separate cars, subject to individual recalls, and remember the recall will be at the very least pan-European in the first two instances, and both pan-European & pan-Asian in the latter instance.

It'll be interesting to see what happens with Lexus models too.

That it's taken Toyota half a decade to address this is frankly astonishing... though perhaps back then their minds were pre-occupied with their then 1.4 million car recall. :eek:

Dont Hurt Me
Feb 10, 2010, 06:24 PM
Was just watching ....Fox dont say it to loud Shepard Smith who is about as close as they get to News and not spin and they had a ex Lawyer for Toyota who was saying the were destroying evidence, telling lies,withholding evidence etc during trials. Wow this hole is getting deeper and deeper.

Counterfit
Feb 11, 2010, 03:44 AM
A couple of comments:

1) The problem with the Prius brakes are similar to a problem Ford had recently with the Fusion Hybrid sedan--a weird feeling on the brakes as it switches from engine braking to mechanical braking. Ford fixed the problem with a software upgrade to the hybrid drivetrain computer, and it appears Toyota will do the same.
Subaru had a similar problem on WRXs a while back, the ABS would freak out and cause the brakes to not work right on bumpy roads. I don't remember what they did to fix it.
2) Toyota may have to redesign their Engine Control Unit (ECU) computer so it cuts off the throttle during braking (which is standard practice on other modern automobiles with electronic throttle controls).

I'm pretty sure that's not the case for anything with DBW and a manual transmission. Even though it's a small portion of total sales, the amount of hell raised due to the car not allowing heel&toe braking. I certainly would stay away from any 3 pedal car that wouldn't let me.

iGav
Feb 11, 2010, 04:44 AM
Subaru had a similar problem on WRXs a while back, the ABS would freak out and cause the brakes to not work right on bumpy roads. I don't remember what they did to fix it.

My brother had that with his previous car (not a Subaru), turned out it was a cracked ABS Reluctor Ring, when the car went over a sufficiently serious bump, the sensor picked up the fault and disabled the ABS system.

I'm pretty sure that's not the case for anything with DBW and a manual transmission. Even though it's a small portion of total sales, the amount of hell raised due to the car not allowing heel&toe braking. I certainly would stay away from any 3 pedal car that wouldn't let me.

It is the case, BOSCH already employ it with their Motronic engine management systems.

To quote... "It is worth noting that if the accelerator and brake pedals are both depressed, the ECU detects the condition and brings the engine to idle speed as a safety feature, ignoring the accelerator input. (During "normal" driving this presents no obstacle, but enthusiastic drivers who can do racing-style "heel and toe" downshifts while braking may find that this safety feature thwarts their attempt to "match revs".

quagmire
Feb 22, 2010, 04:30 PM
House Committee determined that Toyota has misled the public.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/house-panel-determines-toyota-misled-public.html

DakotaGuy
Feb 22, 2010, 05:41 PM
Toyota Memo Brags of Saving $100M with "Limited" Recall

The claim, the Wall Street Journal notes, was made in a presentation for Toyota executives titled “Wins for Toyota Safety Group.” Among the “wins” the document lists are the savings claim, as well as a federal government “decision to close safety investigations of the Toyota Tacoma truck without ordering recalls, and delays to new safety rules that saved the company hundreds of millions of dollars.”

http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/daily-news/100222-Toyota-Memo-Brags-of-Saving-100M-with-Limited-Recall/

danny_w
Feb 22, 2010, 06:00 PM
Toyota Memo Brags of Saving $100M with "Limited" Recall



http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/daily-news/100222-Toyota-Memo-Brags-of-Saving-100M-with-Limited-Recall/
Yeah, it doesn't exactly sound like "safety first" does it?

IntheNet
Feb 24, 2010, 08:05 AM
House Committee determined that Toyota has misled the public.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/house-panel-determines-toyota-misled-public.html

Yeah, it doesn't exactly sound like "safety first" does it?

I am sure Toyota Motors will survive this episode but it was long overdue for the company... as CEO Akio Toyoda addresses Washington lawmakers today a chink in the Toyota armor is quite apparent. For decades Toyota was the sterling choice and many in the automotive business have long questioned how Toyota's commitment to quality squared with their zeal to sell tons of admittedly problematic cars. The winners in the short run will be other brands (Ford, GM, etc.) as maybe a few buyers question what they're really buying with a Toyota! Many others, however, long-time Toyota fans, will remain loyal to the company despite what has happened. Toyota dealers - dogmatic supporters of the brand - are still saying nothing is wrong and many are in denial of the brake, steering, and other technical issues affecting the Toyota and Lexus vehicles. I suspect this whole episode will prompt a return of a familiar phrase we Americans have heard before but it won't be from Toyota but instead Ford: "Quality is Job #1," as they seek to convince buyers there is an alternative choice!

yg17
Feb 24, 2010, 08:28 AM
there is an alternative choice!

Yes, it's called Honda, Nissan, Volkswagen, Hyundai, Audi, Kia, BMW or Acura. It'll be a cold day in hell before I buy another American car (or a Toyota for that matter)

DakotaGuy
Feb 24, 2010, 08:02 PM
Yes, it's called Honda, Nissan, Volkswagen, Hyundai, Audi, Kia, BMW or Acura. It'll be a cold day in hell before I buy another American car (or a Toyota for that matter)

I'd put my Ford Fusion up against any of those brands when it comes to overall quality. It's not 1985 anymore.

yg17
Feb 24, 2010, 08:05 PM
I'd put my Ford Fusion up against any of those brands when it comes to overall quality. It's not 1985 anymore.

Don't care. The American cars we've owned have left a bad enough impression on us that I wouldn't touch one with a ten foot pole.

OzExige
Feb 24, 2010, 08:11 PM
Yes, it's called Honda, Nissan, Volkswagen, Hyundai, Audi, Kia, BMW or Acura. It'll be a cold day in hell before I buy another American car (or a Toyota for that matter)

What a jejune point of view, how old are you? :confused:

steve2112
Feb 24, 2010, 08:29 PM
Wow, it just keeps on piling on for Toyota. Check out this article (http://consumerist.com/2010/02/video-one-toyota-drivers-horror-story.html) discussing one lady's experience with her Lexus while testifying in front of Congress. This is why I love driving a manual transmission. No electronic nannies to interfere with my driving. When I put my car in neutral, it goes into neutral.

DakotaGuy
Feb 24, 2010, 09:57 PM
Don't care. The American cars we've owned have left a bad enough impression on us that I wouldn't touch one with a ten foot pole.

Your perception is wrong when it comes to many of the new American cars. You are basing all of your opinions on outdated models that are no longer produced.

I know the Fusion is an excellent car because 1) I own one and have never had one recall or warranty repair. 2) I have family members and friends that own one and have never had a recall or warranty repair. 3) It is rated above many of the cars you "think" are better when it comes to quality and reliability.

In fact, the conventional Fusion has NEVER been recalled since it entered production in 2005. NEVER. Now the Fusion Hybrid was recalled to update the braking software, but I think that record is unheard of when it comes to the automotive industry.
If you can show me a foreign made mid-sized sedan with better overall quality ratings then the Fusion I'd love to see it. Data on today's models count not personal experience with past models.

I will never change your opinion of American cars and that is fine. What I do want to do with this post is correct the perception that somehow today's American cars are not as good as foreign cars. Sure Chrysler is producing some real crap, but both Ford and GM have some great new models with quality and reliability that is just as good as the imports. Don't just say they are not any good without some research and time behind the wheel.

steve2112
Feb 24, 2010, 11:14 PM
Ford is really on a roll. If any CEO truly deserves a nice, fat salary, he does. He has done some great things with Ford. They finally wised up decided to bring the European version of the Focus, which has gotten great reviews, to the US. Last time, Europe got a good Focus, and the US got a slightly remodeled version of an old platform. The new Fiesta looks to be a good addition, as well. The Fusion is vastly improved over the old model. I had a Mazda 6, the model the old Fusion was based on, and to me, the Fusion seemed inferior. The chassis didn't seem as solid, and I didn't like the interior. The new model is a huge upgrade.

GM is good, if bland. The Chevy Malibu is an excellent car. GM's problem has been one of marketing and bad platform decisions. For example, after the last Malibu redesign, it became a clearly better can than the Impala. It was almost the same size, had a better interior, better drivetrains, and exterior styling (although styling is subjective). Yet the Impala continued on. I won't even go into their habit of selling the same vehicle with slightly different styling in several different brands. Also, GM seems to have a problem with small cars. Their mainstream sedans, however, have been pretty good recently.

Honestly, though, I can understand the aversion to American cars. To be honest, most new cars are fairly reliable these days. Most of them can hit 100k miles with ease. 30-40 years ago, this was unheard of. The problem most American brands have had recently is in the small details. Things like using hard, ugly plastics in the dash and other interior parts when Honda is using a good looking, softer plastic. Things like the quality of the seating material, and the carpets. American car companies have tried to cut costs in little areas like that for years (GM especially), and it has made a difference. When cars are so similar on the big things, little things start to make the difference.

toolbox
Feb 25, 2010, 05:37 AM
Both our company cars have had to go in for these defects.

dmr727
Feb 25, 2010, 10:29 AM
I know the Fusion is an excellent car because 1) I own one and have never had one recall or warranty repair. 2) I have family members and friends that own one and have never had a recall or warranty repair. 3) It is rated above many of the cars you "think" are better when it comes to quality and reliability.

Here's the thing though - the Fusion hasn't been around long enough to change my perception yet. I'm not saying the Fusion isn't an excellent car, but come back to me with a ten year old Fusion sporting 200K miles, and at that point I'll form my own conclusion.

quagmire
Feb 25, 2010, 10:31 AM
GM is good, if bland. The Chevy Malibu is an excellent car. GM's problem has been one of marketing and bad platform decisions. For example, after the last Malibu redesign, it became a clearly better can than the Impala. It was almost the same size, had a better interior, better drivetrains, and exterior styling (although styling is subjective). Yet the Impala continued on. I won't even go into their habit of selling the same vehicle with slightly different styling in several different brands. Also, GM seems to have a problem with small cars. Their mainstream sedans, however, have been pretty good recently.


There is the Cruze coming this summer to replace the Cobalt and the new Aveo is coming as well.

The Impala is finally getting a replacement within 3 years time( way overdo) on the same Super Epsilon II platform that the Cadillac XTS is riding on( that thing is quite big. Though don't get me started how stupid GM is giving Cadillac an Epsilon II vehicle. It should have been a Zeta based vehicle instead).

The main reason why the Impala is taking so long is because over the last 3 years, it's future has been changed at least 3 times. It was originally going to be on Zeta to go against the 300, Charger, etc. Then CAFE hit and GM scrapped that plan. Then it went to Epsilon II. A year later GM again changed the plans by killing the Impala by 2013 and reviving it around 2015 based on an extended Alpha platform( the same RWD platform the Cadillac ATS is going to ride on). And then finally GM arrived at the current plan of the Super Epsilon II based Impala.

steve2112
Feb 25, 2010, 03:59 PM
There is the Cruze coming this summer to replace the Cobalt and the new Aveo is coming as well.

The Impala is finally getting a replacement within 3 years time( way overdo) on the same Super Epsilon II platform that the Cadillac XTS is riding on( that thing is quite big. Though don't get me started how stupid GM is giving Cadillac an Epsilon II vehicle. It should have been a Zeta based vehicle instead).

The main reason why the Impala is taking so long is because over the last 3 years, it's future has been changed at least 3 times. It was originally going to be on Zeta to go against the 300, Charger, etc. Then CAFE hit and GM scrapped that plan. Then it went to Epsilon II. A year later GM again changed the plans by killing the Impala by 2013 and reviving it around 2015 based on an extended Alpha platform( the same RWD platform the Cadillac ATS is going to ride on). And then finally GM arrived at the current plan of the Super Epsilon II based Impala.

You are better than me. I gave up trying to keep up with the wacky world of GM platforms. I was seriously hoping they would bring the Pontiac G8 into Chevy as the Impala SS. Zeta is the RWD platform the G8 was based on, right? Like I said, I gave up keeping track of it all.

I wonder about the Cruze. I have seen a couple of preliminary reviews of the European model, and they haven't been really great. The new Aveo actually looks like a big upgrade.

The Impala/Malibu is just one example of GM doing weird things with their models. Remember how they sold the old Malibu along side the new and improved Malibu? Yeah, it was renamed the Classic, but still. It just seems to me they were trying to milk every last penny out of that old platform. It was another example of the accountants running that company.

quagmire
Feb 26, 2010, 06:13 AM
You are better than me. I gave up trying to keep up with the wacky world of GM platforms. I was seriously hoping they would bring the Pontiac G8 into Chevy as the Impala SS. Zeta is the RWD platform the G8 was based on, right? Like I said, I gave up keeping track of it all.

Yes, Zeta is the platform the G8 rode on( as well as Camaro). The Commodore may end up back in the US just yet though. Not as an Impala though. ;)

I wonder about the Cruze. I have seen a couple of preliminary reviews of the European model, and they haven't been really great. The new Aveo actually looks like a big upgrade.

Most of the negative things I have heard about the Cruze in Europe is that there is no wagon version and the 1.8 Ecotec is not the smoothest engine ever. For the US trim, unless you buy the stripper trim, you will get the 1.4 Turbo Ecotec engine. The 1.8 Ecotec will only be on the LS trim.

The Impala/Malibu is just one example of GM doing weird things with their models. Remember how they sold the old Malibu along side the new and improved Malibu? Yeah, it was renamed the Classic, but still. It just seems to me they were trying to milk every last penny out of that old platform. It was another example of the accountants running that company.

The Malibu Classic was a fleet sale only model.

Again though, the 2006 refresh of the Impala was meant to be a stopgap as the plan was for the Zeta Impala to arrive by 2010. But, like posted above the plans have changed so many times that it pushed it back 3 years.

yg17
Feb 26, 2010, 06:46 AM
Here's the thing though - the Fusion hasn't been around long enough to change my perception yet. I'm not saying the Fusion isn't an excellent car, but come back to me with a ten year old Fusion sporting 200K miles, and at that point I'll form my own conclusion.

Agreed. The American cars we had problems with were fine in the first few years of ownership. It's when they got older that they started going downhill.

My mom has a 2004 Hyundai Sonata. It's the oldest car in the family at 6 years old, 60k on the clock, and hasn't needed anything except regular maintenance. Every American car we ever owned had multiple repairs within the first 6 years.

Sdashiki
Feb 26, 2010, 09:47 AM
Agreed. The American cars we had problems with were fine in the first few years of ownership. It's when they got older that they started going downhill.

My mom has a 2004 Hyundai Sonata. It's the oldest car in the family at 6 years old, 60k on the clock, and hasn't needed anything except regular maintenance. Every American car we ever owned had multiple repairs within the first 6 years.


Next time you park in a large lot, take a look around you.

What do you see?

How many 10+yr old AMERICAN cars do you see?

How many 15+yr old JAPANESE cars do you see?

How many 5+yr old EUROPEAN (assuming you are in the US of course) cars do you see?

Theres a reason for the large discrepancy. The domestic/EU cars broke down and required enough repairs to the point of worthlessness to their owners, and were traded/sold/destroyed. I havent seen a Jetta or Passat in years. Audio A4? Nope. BMW 325, not in a long while. Camaros...only driven by old ladies who barely drove them in the first place.

Plenty of people drive 1990-era Civics, but no one drives a late 90s Ford Mustang. And its NOT because they chose it that way.


:rolleyes:

yg17
Feb 26, 2010, 05:12 PM
I havent seen a Jetta or Passat in years. Audio A4? Nope. BMW 325, not in a long while. Camaros...only driven by old ladies who barely drove them in the first place.

I see European cars all the time, both old and new. I drive a European car and it's given me no problems at all.

DakotaGuy
Feb 26, 2010, 05:42 PM
Agreed. The American cars we had problems with were fine in the first few years of ownership. It's when they got older that they started going downhill.

My mom has a 2004 Hyundai Sonata. It's the oldest car in the family at 6 years old, 60k on the clock, and hasn't needed anything except regular maintenance. Every American car we ever owned had multiple repairs within the first 6 years.

My brother has a 2000 Ford Taurus with 125,000 miles on it that my parents owned before and it has never needed a major repair. Of course, my father is pretty much a maintenance freak and always ensured all items were well maintained. Maybe you can drive a foreign car for 125,000 miles and never change any fluids, spark plugs, etc. and they will just keep going fine, but I think maintenance also plays a role in how long your car will run without trouble. I am not saying you did not maintain your cars properly, just saying that I have seen American cars that have ran well even after 10 years.

Every case is different. We have ran several F-150's to 150,000+ miles without any major issues. I see a lot of 10+ year old high mileage F-150's still running down the roads. I have a 32 year old F-150 I still use as a second vehicle. Sure it has needed maintenance, but it still has the original engine. I had to pull the transmission and replace seals because they do go bad after 32 years. It is a low mileage survivor, but still it proves that some American vehicles can last and last a long time.

quagmire
Feb 26, 2010, 05:51 PM
My brother has a 2000 Ford Taurus with 125,000 miles on it that my parents owned before and it has never needed a major repair. Of course, my father is pretty much a maintenance freak and always ensured all items were well maintained. Maybe you can drive a foreign car for 125,000 miles and never change any fluids, spark plugs, etc. and they will just keep going fine, but I think maintenance also plays a role in how long your car will run without trouble. I am not saying you did not maintain your cars properly, just saying that I have seen American cars that have ran well even after 10 years.

Every case is different. We have ran several F-150's to 150,000+ miles without any major issues. I see a lot of 10+ year old high mileage F-150's still running down the roads. I have a 32 year old F-150 I still use as a second vehicle. Sure it has needed maintenance, but it still has the original engine. I had to pull the transmission and replace seals because they do go bad after 32 years. It is a low mileage survivor, but still it proves that some American vehicles can last and last a long time.

I still see tons of old Saturn S-Series cars as well.

SactoGuy18
Feb 27, 2010, 08:04 AM
Looks like I have to throw in another €0.02 of comments:

1) I myself drive a 1998 Honda Civic HX CVT coupe. It's got a 108,000 miles on the car, and thanks to US$2,000 worth of maintenance work done last November (it took two days of labor to get it all done!), it drives really good nowadays with 32-39 mpg fuel economy (really good for a ten-year old car). Sdashiki is right--you see a lot 1996-2000 model year Civics still on the road, and many Civic fans consider the six-generation Civic (EJ/EK/EM body style) to be the best Civics ever.

2) As for Fords, look at the current Ford Fusion/Mercury Milan sedan, probably the best four-door sedan sold by an American company nowadays. I've test driven a 2010 Fusion 2.5SE sedan with the Duratec 25 I-4 and six-speed automatic and was very pleasantly surprised by the strong engine performance and really slick 6AT automatic. If I were to buy a new Fusion 2.5SE right now I'd be put on a waiting list--that's how strong demand is nowadays.

I do think the new Fiesta is going to be HOT seller, despite what yg17 says about the styling. ;) Ford masterfully kept the "feel" of the European version as much as possible, and 40 mpg based on the current EPA 2008 test is definitely within reach.

3) As for the Malibu, poor GM! The Malibu is a VERY underrated model, and it's probably one of the best sedans produced by GM in many years. The current 2010 model with the 2.4-liter Ecotec I-4 and the six-speed automatic has superb freeway fuel economy, and quietly has become a good-selling model.

Anyway, getting back on topic, :) there is now increasing concern the problem may be caused by the Engine Control Unit (ECU) computer itself, if this story from Autoblog.com is still true:

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/02/22/abc-news-expert-says-electronic-design-flaw-to-blame-in-runaway/

That could tell me the Toyota ECU may not correctly cut the throttle or the fuel supply in some conditions, which could lead to a potential engine runaway. If that is the case Toyota may have to replace several MILLION ECUs, and that could be a recall so expensive that the Japanese government may have to step in to help pay for it.

DaveSW
Mar 18, 2010, 11:02 AM
More than 100 owners have lodged new complaints of sudden acceleration


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35928528/ns/business-autos/


FYI Toyota owners.

abijnk
Mar 18, 2010, 11:49 AM
I've been convinced since the beginning that it is a software and/or electrical problem. Guess I'm not the only one...

rhett7660
Mar 18, 2010, 11:52 AM
Oh boy. This could get very interesting for Toyota. Having a second round of complaints on items that they fixed. Yikes.

yg17
Mar 23, 2010, 08:11 AM
Are Toyota drivers idiots?

Investigators: New York Prius crash likely driver error (http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/03/22/ny.prius.crash.probe/index.html?hpt=T2)

However, in their defense, the black box probably isn't a reliable source of information. If there's a defect in the car's computer that when you're pressing the brake, the computer thinks you're either pressing the gas or doing nothing, of course the black box will not record any braking.

danny_w
Mar 23, 2010, 08:45 AM
I don't know how many of the problems with Toyotas are real (I expect that a lot of the so-called incidents are just people trying to cash in on the company's problems) but I just don't like the way that the company seems to be handing (or mishandling) this situation. I was in the market for a new car recently and would have considered a Toyota except for this. I bought a Mazda Miata 2 weeks ago and couldn't be happier (BTW, Toyota doesn't make anything even close these days). My wife did buy a Scion xD last year that I hope does not have any of these problems, but it did refuse to start a while back and had to be towed to the dealer (they said it was a known problem and they fixed it - we shall see).

Fakejohnsculley
Apr 11, 2010, 02:01 PM
Toyota’s legal tactics: Deception and evasion

Denial of documents in past cases may give glimpse of future strategy

very interesting read..

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36391413/ns/business-autos/