Not again... (Mac vs PC re:$$$)

[5300cs]

Ok, I hate these types of discussions as much as everyone else, but I wanted to get this out.

So I'm part of this computer club over here, and we had a tour today of 2 computer stores. I and one other guy are the only Mac users (there's another pseudo-Mac user, but he was absent today) everyone else is XP or 98 :rolleyes:

Anyway, we get to the Mac section and the president of the club says "Ok, you can give us a brief talk about Macs for us then." Ok, cool, I thought. I spoke for about 15 seconds telling people that just because it says 1.8Ghz as opposed to a Pentium 4Ghz, it doesn't mean that one is much faster than another (just go with me here.) Before I finished my sentence, the pres goes "Woah! ¥250,000 (standard price) for this sucker! That's a lot! For that price you get all this." I then told him that the monitor wasn't included, so he pointed to one of the aluminum studio displays and says "Jeez! It doesn't come with a bloody monitor! Another ¥150,000 for that! ¥400,000 for your whole setup. Well, I dunno what it does, but I guess it looks nice!" Then he laughed and led the group out of the Mac section to go look at pc notebooks.

I really could have cheerfully killed him at that moment. Don't you just really hate pc-bigots? The worst part is that he's one of those 'build-your-own-pc' types, so you can't argue with them about price :rolleyes:

Sorry, had to get that off my chest. It was pissing me off all day ... :(

[7on]

That's when you sit down, pull out your powerbook, and play an arousing game of Halo.

lol, yeah - I've been fortunate enough not to run into to many PC bigots. I have some friends that like to kid me about it, but nothing major since they do ask me to fix their Windows computers every now and then (esp. during virus season - which ironically is usually during finals).

Next time just tell them more money = better computer just like more money = better car. A $300 PC won't be as good as a $3000 Mac the same way a $3000 car isn't as good as a $30,000 car.

Also, those Apple LCDs are the only LCDs I know of Graphic Designers using. Though most still stick to the CRTs.

[5300cs]

Yeah, I've told them so many times how OS X is idiotically stable & secure compared to xp, and most of the club members listen (though they never buy anything Mac, which doesn't bother me.)

When I did my Mac presentation I put in a few Apple commercials. One of them was the iMac commercial where they show the back of a pc and the narrator says "the pc .. profusely corded ... physically conspicuous... particularly costly ..." etc and he was the only one to jump up and dispute what all the cables really did: "Hey!! That's not fair! There were 2 power cables!!" I was like chill, it's a commercial, not a documentary :rolleyes:
(Like the pc world portrays the Mac world correctly...)

I know Apple is trying to make $$$, but maybe it's not such a good idea to put the G5s out as the first thing people see. People see those price tags and go running for the hills. At least, that's what I noticed over here. You hit the Mac section and there's G5s all over the place, with the cheaper iBooks & eMacs tucked away almost out of sight. Just my 2 cents...

[Abstract]

I really could have cheerfully killed him at that moment. Don't you just really hate pc-bigots?

Why didn't you? Oh wait......those silly laws. Too bad. ;) It almost sounds like he put you on the spot for 15 seconds just to humiliate you. A hobby of his, maybe? It could be something he does because he has a small penis and a shrew for a wife. Heck, maybe he should just kill himself! That'll save you the trouble!! [/wtf?]

One time someone asked me if that was a Mac I had on my lap, and I said "Yes", and he replies, "Oh.......cute." Condescending little mofo. :mad:

[5300cs]

Hot and/or smart chicks dig Macs, only hefers like pcs :D

[jefhatfield]

Ok, I hate these types of discussions as much as everyone else, but I wanted to get this out.

So I'm part of this computer club over here, and we had a tour today of 2 computer stores. I and one other guy are the only Mac users (there's another pseudo-Mac user, but he was absent today) everyone else is XP or 98 :rolleyes:

Anyway, we get to the Mac section and the president of the club says "Ok, you can give us a brief talk about Macs for us then." Ok, cool, I thought. I spoke for about 15 seconds telling people that just because it says 1.8Ghz as opposed to a Pentium 4Ghz, it doesn't mean that one is much faster than another (just go with me here.) Before I finished my sentence, the pres goes "Woah! ¥250,000 (standard price) for this sucker! That's a lot! For that price you get all this." I then told him that the monitor wasn't included, so he pointed to one of the aluminum studio displays and says "Jeez! It doesn't come with a bloody monitor! Another ¥150,000 for that! ¥400,000 for your whole setup. Well, I dunno what it does, but I guess it looks nice!" Then he laughed and led the group out of the Mac section to go look at pc notebooks.

I really could have cheerfully killed him at that moment. Don't you just really hate pc-bigots? The worst part is that he's one of those 'build-your-own-pc' types, so you can't argue with them about price :rolleyes:

Sorry, had to get that off my chest. It was pissing me off all day ... :(

if one is a pc bigot due to price, it still makes some sense

but building your own pc, these days, is a sure way to spend more money than just buying a major brand pc who gets the same parts and software for just a fraction of what any individual can get stuff for...for instance, windows os costs the major manufacturers just 40 dollars a copy

so if he's willing to spend more, in some cases much more, by building a pc and buying parts/software a la carte for more money, he should just spend the extra money on a mac

the only way for a pc person to see the value of a mac is to own one and use it daily...it's those people who never return to the world of windows but it takes that initial investment to get that mac and it's hard to have people pay out 800 dollars or more to get a computer with an unfamiliar operating system and a one button mouse

put yourself in the shoes of a pc person who is used to the two button mouse, windows, and microsoft office and the exact placement of every icon on those programs

that's why i think it's crucial for schools to have macs so the kids can get used to the mac experience early on

[edesignuk]

for instance, windows os costs the major manufacturers just 40 dollars a copyI don't know anyone who builds their own PC's who has a licensed copy of XP though :eek: :D

[Abstract]

Heh, so much truth in that sentence. ;)

I don't know a single person who has a licenced purchased copy of Windows XP unless it came with a newly purchased system. Since my friends don't buy computers often (they're not computer nerds, nor do they really care about getting the latest and greatest OS and patches and such), I guess its fair to say that I only know one person with a purchased copy of WinXP, and only because he bought a new machine 8 months ago.

Just go to any Uni residence and ask someone if they have a copy of WinXP that you could borrow. Too easy. :D

If he actually purchases a copy of WinXP for his self-built PC, it'll be expensive.

[jefhatfield]

I don't know anyone who builds their own PC's who has a licensed copy of XP though :eek: :D

i know a lot of people used pirated windows, but realize there's a ton of software bundled with any major brand pc, granted only 40-60 percent of that is good for my purposed, but it's still hundreds of dollars of stuff and not as easily pirated as windows

i have some good connections if i want to build a pc...i get software discounts by being a microsoft certified professional and a microsoft tech net developer...i live in the svr (silicon valley region) and parts are cheapest here...and local circuit cities and fry's and office depots put cheap stuff here not nationally advertised and ship it all to the silicon valley stores to move it FAST...there is no place in the world that has the deals that my area has for building a pc from scratch...check out office depot or circuit city and look at those nationally advertised prices...now deduct 10 to 40 percent from those prices, especially for parts if you buy here...one of the good things at working in office depot in northern california was the close proximity to the major pc companies and the extra deals they gave only our districts knowing that it would sell/move in silicon valley...if it can't sell here then it won't sell anywhere...every baby born here has an electronic engineering degree as a default setting in their brain ;)

but, it still does not offer the advantage of being the big four...hp/compaq, emachines, ibm, and dell in the sheer volume, and volume discounts these makers get...and the big boys have it down where they can get lots of stuff cheap and having decent to excellent quality

better manufacturing, robotics, better trained staff, and the gradual weeding out of shoddy manufactuers has made the big boys privy to a waterfall of basically fail safe hardware...now software, well, on the pc side, there is still a ways to go to have all that pc bundled software work seamlessly with windows...but it is better now than in the days of windows ME and 2000 where very little worked that well with the os if it related to higher end multimedia

but higher and multimedia and mac hardware/mac os...that was a match made in heaven from day one and is one of the things one should mention to a pc user...us mac types have a good working relationship with the workings of macromedia and adobe stuff...and the mac os has more control on the backend of that software which is crucial and time saving for graphics and sound professionals

in the long run, a mac, for creative types, pays for itself and is cheaper to use than a pc...pre press houses will charge extra for files submitted that were made on a pc due to extended back end tweaking on their part

unfortunatley, os x does not have the total control os 9 had on the back end but i have high hopes for tiger...we need to have os x have true back end font management and it should have been worked out at least a couple of years ago

well, nothing is perfect, but macs are far closer than any pc i know of ;)

[jefhatfield]

there is no longer any financial angle to building your own pc...it just simply costs more these days...five years ago, it really made sense to save money and buy the parts a la carte...but times change

but it is still fun and people have done some of the strangest fun zaniest things...i know one gamer who put ten fans in his pc and it does run cooler and thus faster than any other pc with similar processors, video card, etc

some kinky techies here hooked up adult toys to their machines which would work on cue to a video cam and his partners identical setup so they can have a type of sex beyond phone sex...the networked machines work the "toys" remotely at the command of the users...it certainly got national attention and stands as one of the most creative pc computer mods ever made...last i checked, hp/compaq or dell does not have such a machine for sale ;)

[MacsRgr8]

some kinky techies here hooked up adult toys to their machines which would work on cue to a video cam and his partners identical setup so they can have a type of sex beyond phone sex...the networked machines work the "toys" remotely at the command of the users...it certainly got national attention and stands as one of the most creative pc computer mods ever made...last i checked, hp/compaq or dell does not have such a machine for sale ;)

LOL!
:D

"Try that on a Mac!" ;)

There is no ducussion or argument if you want to compare a Mac to a home-built PC without a licensed copy of Windoze. Just two totally different worlds. We all know about that by now, I hope.
Never try to convince cheap-high-end-gaming-PC zealots that a Mac is good value. They will laugh their a$$ off.
It's just like comparing "scrapheap challenge car which goes 200 mph" (= home built PC) to a BMW (obvious... a Mac) :p

[Chip NoVaMac]

Why didn't you? Oh wait......those silly laws.

Not to mention that i understand that violence is not something seen as much in Japan as we have in the US.

[Nermal]

"Hey!! That's not fair! There were 2 power cables!!"

Back when that ad was made, it was common for most PCs to have two power cables. One came in from the wall, and the other one powered the display. For some reason they don't usually have the 'output' one anymore.

[Ryan1524]

wow. i remember that. and the first times monitors have their own power cables, i got confused.... :p

[neoelectronaut]

How is it not fair? There's a cable that goes from your monitor to your surge protector, and from your PC to your surge protector. That's two cables.

:confused:

[JeffTL]

Easy answer to people like that. Ask them to find a laptop as good as an iBook for less. It ain't gonna happen.

[5300cs]

The tour yesterday was in the hopes of buying parts and making a pc for under ¥20,000 ($200.) Comparing a do-it-yourself pc for that cheap (and I mean cheap in both senses of the word) and comparing it to a Mac is really unfair. It's like comparing a bag from Woolworths to a Gucci, or a Timex to an Omega. It really pisses me off when people compare the 2 :mad:

And I WAS going to show off the PowerBooks & iBooks but the group left before I could :mad: :mad:

[BornAgainMac]

Alienware computers are expensive but you get better components than a $599 Dell Pentium 4. Windows people that build their own PCs should know that the components can change the price of the computer a lot. Tell them the G5 is like one of those Alienware PCs. Low-end Macs start at $799 and include a nice software bundle and are more comparable to those cheaper PC brands. There is also a lot of software that is included with OS X that you don't see like CD imaging, speech, Applescript, free R/W MS Word support, stickies, development tools, FTP server, ssh server, firewall, web services, X windows, UNIX shell and utilities. To buy most of these tools for Windows would cost hundreds if not thousands of dollars.

I would consider iMovie a $99 dollar program and Garageband, iDVD and iPhoto too. It's nice that they are standard with every Mac purchase.

[Dros]

I don't know anyone who builds their own PC's who has a licensed copy of XP though :eek: :D

Well, I do. :o

We need to run one stupid dongle protected program and it only runs on XP. It is pretty cool that most people coming in are used to Windows, but after a while most people wait to use the Macs for day-to-day tasks instead of having to use the Windows machine.

[MrJohnson]

Yeah, This arguement is a little one sided as I build my own PC's for very little money and they do perform very well. I do have a liscensed copy of WinXP that I bought for $139. It's OEM so basically you can buy the full version of WIN XP Pro for $139 as long as you are buying new hardware (Hard drive, mobo, processor, etc. But it doesn't have to be all. You can buy just the OEM with a hard drive or anything like that.)

And as far as it goes where it is 'cheaper' to buy from a major resaler. That's total bs. Maybe if you wanted a $300 computer it is cheaper (with liscensed operating system) but the point of building your own computer is to build a higher end desktop for less money.


Also, another nice thing PC's have that Macs are just getting is standardization. I like being able to choose what Case I want and how big of a motherboard I want. The processor/heatsink/motherboard/ram/videocard. It's just nice to be able to COMPLETLY customize your own computer.

And as far as sticking 10 case fans in a case, That won't make your computer run faster. Just allow for a overall cooler system, which is good for overclocking which we PC people are also Way ahade in. For instance, we have phase change/water cooling systems that you can buy to cool your processor just to overclock.


I don't hate the mac's I really like macs. Just the PC guy is somewhat right and you are somewhat right. PCs are very hard to compair to macs. They both have their flaws.

Also I'd like to point out that Windows XP is very stable. I would say as stable as OSX. I'm not retarted and I know how to use my computer and keep it clean. Thus it stays stable.


Thanks.

[MrJohnson]

Alienware computers are expensive but you get better components than a $599 Dell Pentium 4. Windows people that build their own PCs should know that the components can change the price of the computer a lot. Tell them the G5 is like one of those Alienware PCs. Low-end Macs start at $799 and include a nice software bundle and are more comparable to those cheaper PC brands. There is also a lot of software that is included with OS X that you don't see like CD imaging, speech, Applescript, free R/W MS Word support, stickies, development tools, FTP server, ssh server, firewall, web services, X windows, UNIX shell and utilities. To buy most of these tools for Windows would cost hundreds if not thousands of dollars.

I would consider iMovie a $99 dollar program and Garageband, iDVD and iPhoto too. It's nice that they are standard with every Mac purchase.


What brand of hard drives do mac's use?

Western Digital and Maxtor are ****ty drives. Period.

Also, some of that stuff is trivial. It's just like buying a PC and having all this software preloaded that you may never use. I can never see myself using stickies. Not only that but we have things like sourceforge.net where most of that stuff can be had FOR FREE.


Also, on PC's if you want Unix or Xwindow just install Linux or Unix.

[MrJohnson]

Easy answer to people like that. Ask them to find a laptop as good as an iBook for less. It ain't gonna happen.



Well what are you basing that on?

I could say that a Dell D600 is a better laptop overall but I don't know what you're saying exactly.

[Brother Michael]

Hot and/or smart chicks dig Macs, only hefers like pcs :D

Can't account for the hefers and PC's, but I know that a lot of chicks do dig the Mac's for some reason...well at least all the ones in the Design fields and a few have said my iBook was cute.

Mike

[jefhatfield]

but the point of building your own computer is to build a higher end desktop for less money.




yeah, in the 90s what you say might hold true, but you can still find a higher end computer with os and software apps from a major maker cheaper...when and if you personally have the ability to buy parts by the tens of thousands and software titles too, then you can compete dollar for dollar

you can put hardware together for a good price and maybe even in the range of a major maker, but it's the software, title for title, compared to a major maker which will make you go way over budget compared to that major maker

but that being said, i believe all paid professional techies and many hobbyists should build a machine just for the experience...you can build a dell with so many different combinations that it will suffice for most pc users out there, but making a machine for yourself from individual parts does give you the advantage to add or subtract parts in any combination leaving the builder with a virtually endless list of possibilities

though i don't condone it, many techies steal software titles and make the software portion of their computer a no cost operation leaving all available money for hardware parts...many kids, and some adults, like to brag that they got the whole adobe software suite and gazillions of free tunes put on their machines for free and they don't see the harm in it

but for people like me who spend money to get technical training, become certified, get college and graduate degrees, and get business licenses all in the pursuit of being a techie/analyst/engineer/teacher/etc, it is a slap in the face when people steal software, and hardware, in order to get or make the coolest computer on the block for "cheap"

but on the other hand, it doesn't, however, justify the high prices the record industry tries to charge the consumer for music...which was the biggest factor in why people got into napster and other online forms of sharing and swapping music

it will be many years before a settlement will be made between all interested parties involved and at the end of the day, the record industry will no longer have the power they once had over our wallets ;)

[FuzzyBallz]

Pretty men dig Apple iWhatevers.
Then he laughed and led the group out of the Mac section to go look at pc notebooks. I really could have cheerfully killed him at that moment.
He probably thinks you're not man enough to use a PC too, seeing how you got the cute Mac.

[Timelessblur]

umm it still is. I paid 1500 for my computer I built. A pre-built computer with semilar specs is 1700 from dell and it has crappier parts. 2K from alien with about the same leval of parts. (this is running with no monitor) I did go though the trouble of checking to make sure how much I saved.

You have to remeber dell is hard for costume builts to beat because the ones who costume built there computer use much higher quilty parts so general they get about the same spec numbers for same price but almost every part of there computer is better quilty parts.

[jefhatfield]

umm it still is. I paid 1500 for my computer I built. A pre-built computer with semilar specs is 1700 from dell and it has crappier parts. 2K from alien with about the same leval of parts. (this is running with no monitor) I did go though the trouble of checking to make sure how much I saved.

You have to remeber dell is hard for costume builts to beat because the ones who costume built there computer use much higher quilty parts so general they get about the same spec numbers for same price but almost every part of there computer is better quilty parts.

but buy all the software and operating system that a dell comes with and then see if you saved any money

too many people, usually not professionals like me, are hobbyists who brag about making a comparable computer for the same price without looking at the software angle

when you buy a computer from a major maker, it's not just the tower, there's the operating system, software apps and games, keyboard, and mouse and some major makers, usually during christmas or back to school season will throw in a printer, extra ram, or monitor in for free

the scale of the big boys gives them that advantage of buying in bulk and getting hardware and software for less money

[jefhatfield]

now if dell, emachines, or hp compaq built a tower only with just windows on it, then you would see machines retailing for 150 dollars or less

but like i said, add the mouse, keyboard, some games, some apps and then you have a machine that probably gets into the 350-400 dollar range

my compaq laptop came with scads of programs on it and if i had to buy all that software individually, it would have cost many hundreds of dollars

windows 98
mcafee virus software
trip maker basics
microsoft money
quicken
microsoft works
microsoft encarta
microsoft word
world book encyclopedia
ring central fax
corel office suite

and the free stuff pre-installed

netscape navigator
netscape mail
real player
quicktime
adobe acrobat player
flash player
star office on some models of the line

etc...

and the compaq desktop line comes with all that and much more in terms of software and freeware and desktops start at 399 usd...there's just no way to get all that software stuff and hardware for the same price if you go at it alone

and that's the low to mid end machines i am talking about

for high end machines, i have seen some high end graphics machines in the 4k+ range with four titles from adobe as in a graphics or web suite, a macromedia suite with four or five titles, maya mid level release, and microsoft office premium bundled on the machine...if you have to buy all that software alone, it almost costs as much as the computer as it is being offered by the major maker with all the software already on it

[5300cs]

Pretty men dig Apple iWhatevers.

He probably thinks you're not man enough to use a PC too, seeing how you got the cute Mac.

I personally, don't think Macs have looked 'cute' since the iMacs or original iBooks (just my opinion.) I guess if someone thinks a G5 is cute, well... whatever floats their boat :rolleyes:

This was the same guy though, who had trouble networking a desktop win2k machine & a notebook xp machine. I did it with 2 iBooks with Jaguar & Panther in about 2 minutes. Really pissed him off :D He's all on the floor sweating and panting & swearing, messing around with cable and so on.

I sometimes myself wonder if I've been too harsh on windows, but a 5 minute stint with any xp machine, or even worse a pocket pc :eek: brings me back to reality

[Abstract]

@Jefhatfield: While I generally agree with what you're saying, what are the chances that someone who buys that PC is looking for that exact same lineup of included apps? A Dell costs what it does because of all these other things, I'd rather not have it and just ask for WinXP and a reduced computer price.

But yes, some of the software that's included is probably necessary if you're going to enjoy your computer, and that's where some of the costs lie.

[BornAgainMac]

What brand of hard drives do mac's use?

Western Digital and Maxtor are ****ty drives. Period.

Also, some of that stuff is trivial. It's just like buying a PC and having all this software preloaded that you may never use. I can never see myself using stickies. Not only that but we have things like sourceforge.net where most of that stuff can be had FOR FREE.


Also, on PC's if you want Unix or Xwindow just install Linux or Unix.

That's true. I forgot about Linux. What do you recommend for a Hard Drive brand? I was thinking of upgrading my stock 160 GB. I have had zero problems with Maxtor and Western Digital drives and I have tons of them as firewire drives. Typically they give me at least 5 years of service before they sound like they are going to die. Is there another brand that gives better performance? IBM? Seagate?

[jefhatfield]

@Jefhatfield: While I generally agree with what you're saying, what are the chances that someone who buys that PC is looking for that exact same lineup of included apps? A Dell costs what it does because of all these other things, I'd rather not have it and just ask for WinXP and a reduced computer price.

But yes, some of the software that's included is probably necessary if you're going to enjoy your computer, and that's where some of the costs lie.

very true

the fax software is one i have never used

microsoft money or quicken is good, but i don't need both

microsoft works and corel office suite do the same thing, and i don't need both

microsoft word is fine, but microsoft works word processor gets the job done

i can cruise the net with ie explorer and do email with outlook express, i don't need netscape also

one encyclopedia is fine, but i don't need encarta and world book

so there is definitely a lot of stuff on the software end i would not buy...if i like an app i don't need to get the same basic thing from another company

the people i know who still build their own in this day and age strip down the software titles so they can make their machine a gaming machine which looks cool with glass portholes/sides, extra fans, and fancy lights inside...besides games, there will be a browser and email, but little else except for games

i love the magazine cpu (computer power user) and they try and make the ultimate gaming machines within different budget points...the people i know who go for build your own often like to spend way more than any company bought machine and make the coolest gaming machine on the block

on www.woz.org a super techie built a 24" crt imac a few years ago...he basically took the guts of a crt imac and transferred it all, except for the 15" crt, into a sony 24" inch trinitron crt to make a super large all in one imac

it's one of the coolest mods i have seen but it takes more than just knowledge of computer hardware due to some electronics skills it employs connecting the internals of an apple imac to a sony trinitron and making it all in one and seamless...and doing that all without getting a lethal shock

working inside a computer tower is commonplace and safe, but digging into crt monitors deals with high voltage and can be dangerous for people who do not know what they are doing...also digging into computer power supplies is dangerous and involves high voltage

[Timelessblur]

but buy all the software and operating system that a dell comes with and then see if you saved any money

too many people, usually not professionals like me, are hobbyists who brag about making a comparable computer for the same price without looking at the software angle

when you buy a computer from a major maker, it's not just the tower, there's the operating system, software apps and games, keyboard, and mouse and some major makers, usually during christmas or back to school season will throw in a printer, extra ram, or monitor in for free

the scale of the big boys gives them that advantage of buying in bulk and getting hardware and software for less money

I forgot to add the software on my computer I built is legit I paid for it. I am running XP pro. Nortain Antivirse and firewall. I got MS office Pro though my school for free. Otherwise I would of used something like MSworks which I can get for 20bucks OEM and it has Word and a Spreed sheet program (not nearly as powerful as excel but I dont need it. Nor do I need outlook I would just use outlook Express or thurnder bird)

[Timelessblur]

now if dell, emachines, or hp compaq built a tower only with just windows on it, then you would see machines retailing for 150 dollars or less

but like i said, add the mouse, keyboard, some games, some apps and then you have a machine that probably gets into the 350-400 dollar range

my compaq laptop came with scads of programs on it and if i had to buy all that software individually, it would have cost many hundreds of dollars

windows 98
mcafee virus software
trip maker basics
microsoft money
quicken
microsoft works
microsoft encarta
microsoft word
world book encyclopedia
ring central fax
corel office suite


of that list I most of it I would uninstall the 2nd I got the computer and a lot of it I find is crap. Trip maker would go. MS money would go. MS word goes with works. The fax program would go. Quicken would go. I might keep around encarta and the encyclopedia. BTW I have used all those programs and I happen to own spare lissens to all of them right since the laptop they came on is well no longer in uses and well been dismantinal by gateway.

You macfiee camew with a 90 day trail and besides I hate macfee. Oh btw I got nortain 2k4 intersnet security for 20 bucks OEM from newegg. XP Pro 140 OEM from newegg

[MrJohnson]

That's true. I forgot about Linux. What do you recommend for a Hard Drive brand? I was thinking of upgrading my stock 160 GB. I have had zero problems with Maxtor and Western Digital drives and I have tons of them as firewire drives. Typically they give me at least 5 years of service before they sound like they are going to die. Is there another brand that gives better performance? IBM? Seagate?




IBM is dead, they sold their operation to Hitachi.

I am migrating to only Hitachi drives (Not the old IBM drives that have been rebadged) and Seagate drives as they are the quitest and most reliable. They cost more but that really doesn't matter to me as my data is valuable to me. Recently My dad's western digital died with absolutly no clicking sound of doom. We had to pay $1200 to get the data off of it (He is a lawyer and needed the information on it in a week to go to court)

I will never buy Western digital or Maxtor.

[MrJohnson]

very true

the fax software is one i have never used

microsoft money or quicken is good, but i don't need both

microsoft works and corel office suite do the same thing, and i don't need both

microsoft word is fine, but microsoft works word processor gets the job done

i can cruise the net with ie explorer and do email with outlook express, i don't need netscape also

one encyclopedia is fine, but i don't need encarta and world book

so there is definitely a lot of stuff on the software end i would not buy...if i like an app i don't need to get the same basic thing from another company

the people i know who still build their own in this day and age strip down the software titles so they can make their machine a gaming machine which looks cool with glass portholes/sides, extra fans, and fancy lights inside...besides games, there will be a browser and email, but little else except for games

i love the magazine cpu (computer power user) and they try and make the ultimate gaming machines within different budget points...the people i know who go for build your own often like to spend way more than any company bought machine and make the coolest gaming machine on the block

on www.woz.org a super techie built a 24" crt imac a few years ago...he basically took the guts of a crt imac and transferred it all, except for the 15" crt, into a sony 24" inch trinitron crt to make a super large all in one imac

it's one of the coolest mods i have seen but it takes more than just knowledge of computer hardware due to some electronics skills it employs connecting the internals of an apple imac to a sony trinitron and making it all in one and seamless...and doing that all without getting a lethal shock

working inside a computer tower is commonplace and safe, but digging into crt monitors deals with high voltage and can be dangerous for people who do not know what they are doing...also digging into computer power supplies is dangerous and involves high voltage



That whole, mod your case thing is only taking off with the people who are just now starting to build their computers. Personally I think it looks ugly. I perfer quiet fast operating. And I can guarantee you building your own computer is cheaper. AMD > Intel. For price point and performance in games.

[jefhatfield]

there is so much software to be had illegally, especially around schools

the college wanted me to teach as a part time professor but also be the library's network admin using one copy of windows nt for all the computers...he he...on one end teach the microsoft line at the college's microsoft sponsored and cisco sponsored academy and have the students buy the books and software needed from the college bookstore, and on the other end use one copy of nt workstation for the whole library??

in a perfect world either we would all buy software legally, thus driving down the price, or have it that all software would be free and paid for by hardware, taxes, toner ink, and other sources to pay for the programmers and developers

much of the software could be developed for free by students in college and grad school working for a project/grade/thesis/dissertation and from hobbyists who want to make stuff and share it for free, like the woz wanted to back in the early 70s

even if it eventually costs twice as much to build one's machine from scratch one day, there will be computer heads out there doing it for the fun...i play guitar and find the cheapest way to get, let's say a stratocaster, is to buy one for seven or eight hundred...mid level model

but i can actually buy the licensed/official fender parts individually and build one for a thousand dollars, but it would be exactly the way i wanted it...right color, some chrome parts, some black chrome parts, vintage pickups in the neck and bridge position, but reverse polarity modern/hotter pickup in the middle position, single layer pickguard with fewer screws as opposed to triple layer pickguard, tweed case instead of plastic molded case, and sperzel or gotoh straplocks as opposed to standard fender straplocks...basically, the guitar would sound almost the same but it would be perfectly suited to my tastes

that's the best reason for someone to build their own machine...there's so many cool aftermarket and custom parts that it's hard to build a machine cheaply these days...even the darn computer cases could be super customized and i have seen cases that are 1500 alone without the motherboard, processor, or ram

the customization and flexibility for the ultra cool/modern will cost you a pretty penny and give you a machine which may act the same on the inside, but look cool doing it...i wouldn't want to build a boring looking machine these days...if i did it, i would go all out like the sample machines made by the people at cpu magazine or the various gaming magazines

i don't know any fellow computer professional these days who builds their own to save money...today, it's about the cool mods and after market parts and there is a market in building super cool gaming machines for rich kids

[jefhatfield]

That whole, mod your case thing is only taking off with the people who are just now starting to build their computers. Personally I think it looks ugly. I perfer quiet fast operating. And I can guarantee you building your own computer is cheaper. AMD > Intel. For price point and performance in games.

if you can build the machine cheap and find sources to get all the identical software that hp, ibm, etc gives you on their machines, then you can start a business

but then you would have to do what you do and occassionally give away ram and inkjet printers for free, and oh yeah, provide 90 days free telephone support and one year hardware and parts standard warranty...and if need be provide two years for 79 dollars and three for 99 dollars, and add extra protection beyond that for another 99 dollars

those big companies, with the combination of hardware, software, and warranty support have people like you and me beat...if you can circumvent all that you can become the next emachines or winbook or ibm

[Timelessblur]

Well even the people who build are saying if you want to go low range and cheap go buy a dell Emachince ect. Because it going to hard to beat there price. By mid leval the tables turn back to the builders.

Building your own computer advatage are.
Higher quilty parts in general (better brands, better part specs ect).

You know Exactly what is in the computer

You can cut corners on stuff you dont need or dont want or upgraded indival parts with out paying for crap you dont want.

When something does go wrong you can general figure out what it was pretty fast or trace it down.

There is no extra crap in the software that been nicely installed for you. No AOL none of that extra stuff they have a contral to install on the computer for you. In the software benfintes it is very nice since you control what is put on there and there is no spending 30-40 min trying to figure out what extra crap there is in there.


Yeah low end you not going to beat dell. They can undercut you pretty easily but you also need to remeber they are making a few bucks off that computer to begin with. There biggest cost saving is in the software since they are getting huge deals in it. Hardware wise not so much. I know for a fact Dell PSU are on the weak side. It ok for most using but if you if you want to OC add more stuff it will show it face. (not like you can overclock a prebuilt computer any how)

[jefhatfield]

i thought about a price point high enough in a computer where i can offer my customers a deal where i would be cheaper than dell or emachines

but my customers who are home, business, and corporate almost always go for the cheap machines which are the desktops under $1000 dollars each...if there was a niche i can find in custom built machines these days, i would find it and make money for my business that way also...plus it would be fun instead of just offering and dealing with software and hardware repair issues only

i just don't think there is any way to make building your own worth it in a business sense when my customers want the cheapest, or just one model up version of a dell, emachine, hp, or compaq

there is one place where i heard that building your own can seriously save money...in the movie "the mummy", techs built custom machines, many of them, to render the digital effects and saved a ton of money as opposed to buying someone else's (sgi or sun) ultra expensive custom graphics machines

in some military operations, certain mass computing projects are built by a contractor from scratch as opposed to just buying a whole bunch of gear from some computer giant...in this day and age of politicians complaining about the high cost of war, cutting costs can be crucial

the department of the army had a study where they confirmed that using macs would be cheaper in the long run because it would require far less manpower to repair and troubleshoot the things compared to pee-cee's...good move i say ;)

[JeffTL]

Well what are you basing that on?

I could say that a Dell D600 is a better laptop overall but I don't know what you're saying exactly.\

Inspiron 600? Doesn't come standard with CD burner or 40-gigabyte hard drive. Without sale we're talking $1407 and you don't even get XP Pro (if you want or need its features it's another $71) to approximate a $1299 iBook 14". There's no need to go to the 1.25 GHz iBook, closer to the 1.5 GHz Dell, as either the Apple or the Dell is not going to be a high-powered 3D machine -- 32 MB of video RAM.