I don't mean to sound ungrateful, but...

[dh2005]

... is it just me, or do Apple deliberately make the specs of their desktop machines depressingly inflexible?


I have a certain computing need in mind - it's nothing outrageous or particularly complicated, I promise you - and I just can't find it in a Mac without having to pay through the nose for additional things that I don't want.

Illustration: I want to buy a medium-spec computer with solid gaming capability.

DOES NOT COMPUTE

I have a 32" LCD TV, so my first thought was to look at the Mac Mini range. Compact, pleasant to look at, not too expensive, great... but try getting a Mac Mini with a half-decent graphics card.

So I look at the iMacs, and I figure that 21.5" will be a big enough display when I'm sat right up against it... but again, nothing but rotten onboard graphics available.

Which has driven me into the arms of the 27" iMac, and yeah, it's a lovely machine; but it's more machine than I really need, and even then, the graphics card that comes with it is nothing to wet your pants over. I'd say there's a serious power mismatch between an i5 CPU, 4GB of DDR3, and that 18-month old ATI card.


Does anyone else agree with me, or am I just a moaning Minnie who's grown too used to building his own PCs...?!

Thanks for your thoughts.




DH.

[MacHamster68]

have you thought about the mini where you can use the display size you want

on the other hand as far as i know ,never looked inside a imac 21.5 or 27 but they have a pci slot ..
as i read following spec for the 21.5 on a website

Video Card ATI Radeon HD 4670
Video Card Type 16-lane PCI Express 2.0

see if there is a pci slot inside just fit another card and if the case is in your way just cut it , its alloy , thats soft and easy to cut and weld

easier option is still to build your own system with the spec you like , there is
a chinese manufacturer called optronix they offer a 27 inch screen as a barebone system , ok not as pretty from the back but you mainly look at the front anyway i guess

[i7QuadCoreMania]

I agree with everything you said about Macs, coming from someone who is in the IT industry and who used to build their own PCs.

Apple products have always marketed themselves as 'Premium Products' so it's expected they have priced higher. As for lackluster graphics cards, I have no idea why they always go with second tier cards even in their top models.

Having said that, I love my 27" i7 despite all the complaints about yellowing LCD. It's expensive but the design and osx is really something that stands out from an average "PC":D

BTW I also own a Hackintosh Dell mini running snow leopard, it's the perfect low cost netbook and certainly more useful than the iDouche, err iPad.:rolleyes:

[miniConvert]

There's often 'always something'. I waited a LONG time for my MacBook Pro (2006) as prior models had pretty naff graphics cards. Graphics do seem to be a consistent let-down with Apple, they're just not prepared to go to the high end - even as an option.

I know the 27" iMac doesn't have mind-blowing graphics power. I've quickly hopped on WoW, though, and it does seem to be enough for me. Quite impressive that it can drive such a high resolution screen.

Despite Apple now filling almost every gap from tiny screenless MP3 player to MacBook, I think MacBook through to Mac Pro is going to remain a very patchy lineup. Which is a shame, because for many of us it's Mac computers that change the way we live and work, not all of the pocketable stuff.

[MacHamster68]

i dont think that the graphics in the macs are low end , macs always have been good working computers for movie- , photo-editing and graphical work in general
and its the gaming industry that forces gamers to more and more expensive graphic cards which makes gaming a expensive hobby , as with nearly every new game you need to upgrade your rig or get a new one and start upgrading again
a intel iMac is simply no gaming rig , and it was never the intention of apple to produce a gaming rig when they introduced the intel iMacs ..at least to my knowledge

[hakr]

In terms of Apple's computer offerings, there are only three areas in which they are somewhat superior to similarly priced Windows machines:

1. ergonomics

2. the operating system

3. customer support

All the innards are standard computer pieces and parts. The Macs, especially the desktop machines, are far less flexible than Windows machines. There are also certain categories of software that simply are not available on Mac.

I like my two Macs, but not a day goes by without my wondering why accomplishing certain tasks seems more difficult on them than it was on my old desktop and laptop Windows PCs.

[iamthedudeman]

In terms of Apple's computer offerings, there are only three areas in which they are somewhat superior to similarly priced Windows machines:

1. ergonomics

2. the operating system

3. customer support

All the innards are standard computer pieces and parts. The Macs, especially the desktop machines, are far less flexible than Windows machines. There are also certain categories of software that simply are not available on Mac.

I like my two Macs, but not a day goes by without my wondering why accomplishing certain tasks seems more difficult on them than it was on my old desktop and laptop Windows PCs.


I would also add

4:build quality.

5: better Panels than most for the price.

A 27 inch panel from dell that is even comparable to the 27inch imac costs 1050, just for the panel.

[hakr]

I would also add

4:build quality.

5: better Panels than most for the price.

A 27 inch panel from dell that is even comparable to the 27inch imac costs 1050, just for the panel.

I've seen nothing in the three Macs I've owned that indicate a better "build" quality than, say, the old built-by-IBM thinkpad I owned.

My iMac 27" model retailed for $2000 or so. Let's assume the screen in the iMac has a retail "value" of about $1000. If that were the case, there's nothing else in the machine that adds up to the other $1000 -

1. A terabyte hard drive is under $100 these days
2. top of the line motherboards, certain MBs more capable than the iMac's,.
are about $150
3. Four gigs of RAM? $100
4. Modest video card? $125
5. "Case"? Under $100
6. CPU? Under 200

Again, I'm not knocking the Apple product...I'm just saying there's really nothing that special about them, hardware-wise.

Oh...and that 27" iMac screen? For $1000, I can buy all manner of computer screens that will outperform it in many ways, without the yellowstains and flickering. :D

[stridemat]

Perhaps the OP should look into a Hackintosh. There are some very good guides for building i7 comparable machines. You can then select your own graphics card and use your existing LCD.

[srexy]

... is it just me, or do Apple deliberately make the specs of their desktop machines depressingly inflexible?


I have a certain computing need in mind - it's nothing outrageous or particularly complicated, I promise you - and I just can't find it in a Mac without having to pay through the nose for additional things that I don't want.

Illustration: I want to buy a medium-spec computer with solid gaming capability.

DOES NOT COMPUTE

I have a 32" LCD TV, so my first thought was to look at the Mac Mini range. Compact, pleasant to look at, not too expensive, great... but try getting a Mac Mini with a half-decent graphics card.

So I look at the iMacs, and I figure that 21.5" will be a big enough display when I'm sat right up against it... but again, nothing but rotten onboard graphics available.

Which has driven me into the arms of the 27" iMac, and yeah, it's a lovely machine; but it's more machine than I really need, and even then, the graphics card that comes with it is nothing to wet your pants over. I'd say there's a serious power mismatch between an i5 CPU, 4GB of DDR3, and that 18-month old ATI card.


Does anyone else agree with me, or am I just a moaning Minnie who's grown too used to building his own PCs...?!

Thanks for your thoughts.




DH.

From your mention of the 32" LCD I might deduce that you're looking at an HTPC role for your PC. The Mini is more than up to the task including some pretty strenuous 1080 content. If it is HTPC + gaming - I cannot comment.

[iamthedudeman]

I've seen nothing in the three Macs I've owned that indicate a better "build" quality than, say, the old built-by-IBM thinkpad I owned.

My iMac 27" model retailed for $2000 or so. Let's assume the screen in the iMac has a retail "value" of about $1000. If that were the case, there's nothing else in the machine that adds up to the other $1000 -

1. A terabyte hard drive is under $100 these days
2. top of the line motherboards, certain MBs more capable than the iMac's,.
are about $150
3. Four gigs of RAM? $100
4. Modest video card? $125
5. "Case"? Under $100
6. CPU? Under 200

Again, I'm not knocking the Apple product...I'm just saying there's really nothing that special about them, hardware-wise.

Oh...and that 27" iMac screen? For $1000, I can buy all manner of computer screens that will outperform it in many ways, without the yellowstains and flickering. :D


???????????????????????

Are you serious?

[hakr]

Perhaps the OP should look into a Hackintosh. There are some very good guides for building i7 comparable machines. You can then select your own graphics card and use your existing LCD.

i've glanced at some of the "directions" for doing just that, and have determined there are too many variables and choices that lead to uncertain results. Over the years, I have assembled at least a dozen desktop PCs for myself, and all of them were put together in a much more straightforward manner than the Hackintosh computer directions I've seen.

Now, if you are aware of a Hackintosh whose assembly directions are specific and complete...

[iamthedudeman]

I've seen nothing in the three Macs I've owned that indicate a better "build" quality than, say, the old built-by-IBM thinkpad I owned.

My iMac 27" model retailed for $2000 or so. Let's assume the screen in the iMac has a retail "value" of about $1000. If that were the case, there's nothing else in the machine that adds up to the other $1000 -

1. A terabyte hard drive is under $100 these days
2. top of the line motherboards, certain MBs more capable than the iMac's,.
are about $150
3. Four gigs of RAM? $100
4. Modest video card? $125
5. "Case"? Under $100
6. CPU? Under 200

Again, I'm not knocking the Apple product...I'm just saying there's really nothing that special about them, hardware-wise.

Oh...and that 27" iMac screen? For $1000, I can buy all manner of computer screens that will outperform it in many ways, without the yellowstains and flickering. :D


Case under a $100.

The Aluminum itself, just Aluminum would cost that much. What are you smoking?

The block of Aluminum itself would cost a $100, let alone the design. Here is a Aluminum 20lb "canister' for $104. Add the design and the manufacturing cost for such a design and the tempered glass and you are well over a $100. Closer to $200 is more like it.


http://www.aquariumplants.com/Aluminum_CO2_Cylinders_Tanks_p/t.htm

I have never owned a thinkpad that was all Aluminum unibody and tempered glass. How is Plastic better than Aluminum in terms of build quality?

Everything you just mentioned, every part added up is around $850. Say the panel costs $1000 and the internals are worth $850 that is still $1850 and how much you think the Aluminum and glass enclosure costs? Add that up to and the design. How about adding the Magic Mouse while your add it. I guarantee it costs twice as much as the cheapo mice out on the market. But there is nothing special about a multi-touch mouse. Right?

The 27 inch imac is a bargain for what you get. Expensive yes, but the fact of the matter is that there is not a PC All in one on the market with the Specs of the imac. Not one. The only way Apple is getting a profit is that they are not paying retail for the imacs parts, if they were they would most likely not make a profit on the machine.

So yes, build quality and quality of components are superior to most, if not all of Apples' competitors.

Nothing special about a 27inch beyond HD all in one computer with a all aluminum unibody glass body and multi-touch mouse. No nothing special at all.

There are tons of similar All in ones on the market right now. :rolleyes:

[MacHamster68]

i keep my emac , you cant convince me here to spend the money i spend on holidays , and cigarettes and my car for a a new iMac 27" instead:D
cant buy a iMac 27 " not even the 21.5
..they would not fit as my desk is under a sloping roof and the max hight i just can get comfortable under it is exact the hight of the emac, as i need space in front of the computer to place a keyboard and mouse , and the streamlined shape of the emac follows exact the roofline , same for the iMac g3 there is just enough clearance to allow for the convection cooling to work

[hakr]

i keep my emac , you cant convince me here to spend the money i spend on holidays , and cigarettes and my car for a a new iMac 27" instead:D

I wouldn't argue against the merits of spending bucks on holidays, cars, babes and brews, but cigarettes? Yuck. :D

[MacHamster68]

someone has to support the poor tobacco industrie ;)

[JimKirk]

The total is about 1760 with superdrive

Also

Add

Wireless Keyboard & Mouse ~100

So I think paying the 200 premium for an apple branded product is worth the money for me.

I also got $150 off and a free memory upgrade for my problems.

[dh2005]

God. This has kicked-off since I left the house, this morning...!

As for building my own machine - I appreciate the suggestion, but no ********** way! I want something that's going to work, out of the box. Many years ago, I built a PC - it was largely fine, but it threw up intermittent problems that I didn't have the knowledge to resolve. Depressed me something terrible. Cobbling the parts together isn't difficult, but making them work reliably is more so.

This will be my first Mac, and my first new desktop computer in eleven years. I don't mind that it's gonna cost me a chunk of money (I enjoy a 12% student discount, which helps...). I just want to make sure that I don't buy something mediocre.


To address some of the comments above...

I don't have HTPC ambitions in mind, no. I have a Popcorn Hour C-200, which serves all of my media needs. And if the Mac Mini can't have its video system tarted-up, it's no good to me. Which is a shame.

I'm not the kinda guy who cuts and welds computer cases. Again, thanks for the input... but no.

And I forget who it was who said that Macs aren't designed for gaming; but for me, no offence intended, this is a poor excuse. That may've been true in the Motorola days, but since the Intel changeover, there's no reason at all why Macs can't be built with gaming mind. If Apple want to continue to steal market-share, I think they could do a lot worse than to add a dedicated gaming rig to their iMac range. I mean, look at me! Here I am, pissed at Windows PCs and looking for alternatives, and gaming is among my needs. Do Apple want my business, or don't they...?


What does everyone else think?

As a related point... does anyone know where I can buy Halo for the Mac?

It's available from torrent sites (one of the top Google hits...!), but I don't like stealing software. I'd much rather pay for it. If it still exists, that is.

[MacHamster68]

Here I am, pissed at Windows PCs and looking for alternatives, and gaming is among my needs. Do Apple want my business, or don't they...?


What does everyone else think?


first of all there is no gaming without windows ,there are just no games for mac's any more and installing windows cost money too , apple offers only bootcamp you have to buy windows and install it which transforms the mac into a pc ,with all the same problems a pc has

[dh2005]

Sure, I understand that. But I'm a newbie, so it's fair that you explained.


My view is that, in buying a Mac, I am buying something that is a PC and more. I already own a copy of Windows 7, so installing that won't cost me anything. I'll use it as a PC for games, and as a Mac for most other things. At least, that's my forecast.

My point being... I don't think I'm the only person who'll want to do this. And I think Apple could do more to legislate for someone like me. Even if they offered a decent gaming card purely as an upgrade on the iMac range; that's not asking a lot, is it...?

[TennisandMusic]

Case under a $100.

The Aluminum itself, just Aluminum would cost that much. What are you smoking?

The block of Aluminum itself would cost a $100, let alone the design. Here is a Aluminum 20lb "canister' for $104. Add the design and the manufacturing cost for such a design and the tempered glass and you are well over a $100. Closer to $200 is more like it.


http://www.aquariumplants.com/Aluminum_CO2_Cylinders_Tanks_p/t.htm

I have never owned a thinkpad that was all Aluminum unibody and tempered glass. How is Plastic better than Aluminum in terms of build quality?

Everything you just mentioned, every part added up is around $850. Say the panel costs $1000 and the internals are worth $850 that is still $1850 and how much you think the Aluminum and glass enclosure costs? Add that up to and the design. How about adding the Magic Mouse while your add it. I guarantee it costs twice as much as the cheapo mice out on the market. But there is nothing special about a multi-touch mouse. Right?

The 27 inch imac is a bargain for what you get. Expensive yes, but the fact of the matter is that there is not a PC All in one on the market with the Specs of the imac. Not one. The only way Apple is getting a profit is that they are not paying retail for the imacs parts, if they were they would most likely not make a profit on the machine.

So yes, build quality and quality of components are superior to most, if not all of Apples' competitors.

Nothing special about a 27inch beyond HD all in one computer with a all aluminum unibody glass body and multi-touch mouse. No nothing special at all.

There are tons of similar All in ones on the market right now. :rolleyes:

Hmm...umm no the iMac is not a "bargain" for the parts inside. The previous poster was exactly correct. Who cares about an aluminum case, if the box is sitting on the ground (and you can get very nice cases anyway). I don't think he is talking about an all in one, just a box that is as powerful, or more so.

You are going to be able to get a Dell u2711 for under 1000 street price, and it's the same panel as used in the iMac 27". When you add up the parts for the 1156 based cpu's and p55 motherboards...it's WAY cheaper to do it on your own, and you'll get higher quality parts. Very easy to do. Of course if you want OSX none of that matters anyway. It would be nice if Apple gave us a choice however.

[archipellago]

In terms of Apple's computer offerings, there are only three areas in which they are somewhat superior to similarly priced Windows machines:

1. ergonomics

2. the operating system

3. customer support

All the innards are standard computer pieces and parts. The Macs, especially the desktop machines, are far less flexible than Windows machines. There are also certain categories of software that simply are not available on Mac.

I like my two Macs, but not a day goes by without my wondering why accomplishing certain tasks seems more difficult on them than it was on my old desktop and laptop Windows PCs.



1. ergonomics?? you can set any workstation as you want.

2. OS.. maybe, but having used 7 for 3 months, going back to OSX is like going back in time. Much more software as well.

3. UK customer support for Apple is dreadful..

I would also add

4:build quality.

5: better Panels than most for the price.

A 27 inch panel from dell that is even comparable to the 27inch imac costs 1050, just for the panel.

build quality, are you taking the p!ss??:eek::eek:

[MacHamster68]

Sure, I understand that. But I'm a newbie, so it's fair that you explained.


My view is that, in buying a Mac, I am buying something that is a PC and more. I already own a copy of Windows 7, so installing that won't cost me anything. I'll use it as a PC for games, and as a Mac for most other things. At least, that's my forecast.

My point being... I don't think I'm the only person who'll want to do this. And I think Apple could do more to legislate for someone like me. Even if they offered a decent gaming card purely as an upgrade on the iMac range; that's not asking a lot, is it...?

sure and not only gamers would like to see the imac with a graphic card that matches the potential of the i7 processor , but at the moment it does not look like that , but i guess that is company policy as the imac despite being a desktop it has more in common with a laptop , only missing the battery ,and its a bit more bulky and slightly to big for the average backpack
if you want the true potential of a mac's abilities there is the macpro , which apple wants to sell too , and there you got a wider choice of cards as it has pci slots which are accessible ,so you can fit two graphic cards of your choice ,not only the one apple is offering there are others which fit too and the 2 quad core xeon option each with 2.93ghz and up to 32gb ram and up to 8tb storage should please you and all your gaming needs
http://store.apple.com/uk-business/browse/home/shop_mac/family/mac_pro?afid=p202%7CGOUKE101082023&cid=OAS-EMEA-KWG-UK_CPU-UK

[splitpea]

i dont think that the graphics in the macs are low end , macs always have been good working computers for movie- , photo-editing and graphical work in general
and its the gaming industry that forces gamers to more and more expensive graphic cards which makes gaming a expensive hobby

The trouble is that although the graphics cards they're offering may be decent (although not brilliant: if you had other options would you really want to be editing HD video on a 9600M?) for this year's files and Adobe suite, they may not be much use for the suite that comes out in 2 years or the files we're building then. And if you're spending $2K for a computer, you really don't want to have to replace it every 18 months. Better graphics cards -- at least as *option* -- would make it easier to future-proof your purchase and make it a better value for your dollar.

[suburbia]

Why would you think you were being "ungrateful" (to Apple?) if you find the iMac lacking?

Unless Apple is giving you an iMac-- no charge, you have every right to complain and criticize their offerings.

[MacHamster68]

The trouble is that although the graphics cards they're offering may be decent (although not brilliant: if you had other options would you really want to be editing HD video on a 9600M?) for this year's files and Adobe suite, they may not be much use for the suite that comes out in 2 years or the files we're building then. And if you're spending $2K for a computer, you really don't want to have to replace it every 18 months. Better graphics cards -- at least as *option* -- would make it easier to future-proof your purchase and make it a better value for your dollar.


apple like any other manufacturer wants sales, so it is absolute not in their interest if you keep your Mac for longer then a year , max 2 years , but then you should already have ordered your new one

apple would already rest in piece if they would rely on people like me who are happy with a eMac g4 1.42 , or if i point out your sig on people still using the dual g5 powermac

what i miss at the apple range is something like the dell vostro all in one , a simple AIO with a simple processor (intel pentium dual core ) under 20" that does not look ugly

its not a powerhouse but i do not need one
http://www.pcfastlane.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/dell-vostro-all-in-one.jpg

if it would not be such annoying process to install osx on it i would have done that already and ordered one ,as it costs less then half of a basic imac 21.5 , so i have no choice as i love osx so i will stick with my imac g3's and my eMac , until apple gets it that there not only millionaires out there

[dh2005]

The trouble is that although the graphics cards they're offering may be decent (although not brilliant: if you had other options would you really want to be editing HD video on a 9600M?) for this year's files and Adobe suite, they may not be much use for the suite that comes out in 2 years or the files we're building then. And if you're spending $2K for a computer, you really don't want to have to replace it every 18 months. Better graphics cards -- at least as *option* -- would make it easier to future-proof your purchase and make it a better value for your dollar.


Yup. Exactly my feelings.

Why would you think you were being "ungrateful" (to Apple?) if you find the iMac lacking?

Unless Apple is giving you an iMac-- no charge, you have every right to complain and criticize their offerings.


Sure. I suppose I'm just a little self-conscious of my knowledge (or lack of...) about Macs. I was kinda wondering whether I'd missed something. And, in many respects, I am "grateful" that such a classy option as the iMac exists, so that I have somewhere to go now that I've decided to ditch PCs.

Also, it's not a great idea when you've just joined a Mac forum to start a thread entitled, "What kinda frickin' douche-bags do they have working over at Apple, anyways?!"...!

[thejadedmonkey]

???????????????????????

Are you serious?
uh yeah lol. Those are probably over-estimates too. Apple has huge margins.
Case under a $100.

The Aluminum itself, just Aluminum would cost that much. What are you smoking?

Maybe the Aluminum costs a lot, but the fact is, I have a very minimalist case that I got off of Newegg for $35 (with power supply) that works just as well as a hunk of Aluminum for storing a motherboard in. Actually, I think the black and silver is sweeter looking than a PowerMac's case. So while it may cost more to produce, the functional value of it is even less than $100, more around $50 or $60 (the cost of a nice minimalist case these days).

Also, it's not a great idea when you've just joined a Mac forum to start a thread entitled, "What kinda frickin' douche-bags do they have working over at Apple, anyways?!"...!
The thing is, I've often asked myself that the past few years... their service and quality has really started to decline.

[dh2005]

if it would not be such annoying process to install osx on it i would have done that already and ordered one ,as it costs less then half of a basic imac 21.5 , so i have no choice as i love osx so i will stick with my imac g3's and my eMac , until apple gets it that there not only millionaires out there


Excuse my ignorance, but why is it such an ordeal to install OS X on a PC? Surely, it's just software like everything else...?

... or do Apple force you to register it against the serial number of a new Mac, or something similar?

[suburbia]

Excuse my ignorance, but why is it such an ordeal to install OS X on a PC? Surely, it's just software like everything else...?

... or do Apple force you to register it against the serial number of a new Mac, or something similar?

It's not universal, as are apps like Adobe Suite, which are specific to PC or Mac... You don't have to register your OS with Apple.

You're very courteous about not wanting to step on any toes, but a valid criticism is always a good thing. As there are plenty of individuals who are willing to defend any criticism towards Apple, there are, fortunately, just as many who will defend your right to criticize them. And as of lately, like MacHamster68 has stated, Apple's quality and service has been on a decline from my experience.

[dh2005]

I see... well, thanks for letting me know.

All of my friends who run Macs (all four of them) speak warmly of their computers. One of them is a recent convert, and has been encouraging me to consider a Mac for the last six months. I was kinda hoping that coming to this forum would confirm these good vibes - hearing mixed things about Macs is making me wonder whether there's a computer anywhere on Earth to satisfy my requirements...!

Also, sorry to duplicate, but does anyone know where I can get ahold of Halo for the Mac?

If it's out-of-production, do you think it would be terribly evil of me to gain it through illicit means...? I mean, I am trying to pay for it! But I can't find it anywhere.

Not that I have the first idea about how to use torrents. Seriously. Never done it in my life. Wouldn't know where to start... and I doubt anybody around here will help me!

I'm not asking anyone to, by the way. I expect such a request would represent a breach of forum rules. And rightly so.

[suburbia]

^^^iMacs are perfectly capable computers-- for me. Macs are all that I've known. Never owned or worked on a PC, so I can't bash it. But from my experience (10 yrs of using Mac), Apple's service and products have been on a download spiral.

As far as Halo for Mac, I'm sure you can find it via alternative means. But this is not the place to promote such alternatives...

[dh2005]

Never even worked on one? Man! Where've you been hiding...?!

[Jaro65]

I've seen nothing in the three Macs I've owned that indicate a better "build" quality than, say, the old built-by-IBM thinkpad I owned.

My iMac 27" model retailed for $2000 or so. Let's assume the screen in the iMac has a retail "value" of about $1000. If that were the case, there's nothing else in the machine that adds up to the other $1000 -

1. A terabyte hard drive is under $100 these days
2. top of the line motherboards, certain MBs more capable than the iMac's,.
are about $150
3. Four gigs of RAM? $100
4. Modest video card? $125
5. "Case"? Under $100
6. CPU? Under 200

Again, I'm not knocking the Apple product...I'm just saying there's really nothing that special about them, hardware-wise.

Oh...and that 27" iMac screen? For $1000, I can buy all manner of computer screens that will outperform it in many ways, without the yellowstains and flickering. :D

Please don't take my response in a negative way.

If you believe you can buy a better computer for less money, then why didn't you? Why did you choose to spend more money and then try to prove very hard that you didn't actually need to? What is really the point to all of this?

[dh2005]

As far as Halo for Mac, I'm sure you can find it via alternative means. But this is not the place to promote such alternatives...

Of course. I understand. I was just wondering whether anybody around here knew of a good, legal, source of old Mac games.


Then again, thinking about it, I can probably buy it for the PC then run that through Windows and Boot Camp... right?

[MacHamster68]

source of old mac games ...hmmm great i knowhundreds of mac games ,but none of them will run on a intel based mac , they all require OS8 or OS9 or at least classic , but then the choice is limited already

so what you need is a iMac ,yes but not a 27" or a 21.5 , what you need to play games on mac is a iMac G3 :)

there are literally hundreds of games available for the old OS9 and still there are people developing new ones for OS9

[dh2005]

Fair enough. It was a pretty crap question, now that I read it again...


... do we think that the PC version, which was released in 2004-ish, will run okay in Windows 7? I realise you folks are Mac people, but it's been so long since I owned a gaming computer that I really don't know.

[MacHamster68]

most game and developments of such have stopped for osx at the day steve jobs announced apple goes intel in 2005

its called abandonware as these games had all been developed to run on ppc mac's

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghdTqnYnFyg

a sad day for games on mac

[dh2005]

Ahhhhhhh...

... sorry, I was being thick. There's really no point in me getting ahold of the Mac version by any means, because it predated the Intel changeover, right?

[MacHamster68]

not realy like steve said in the video apple was developing osx since day one cross platform compatible , means it was a thing to happen , and it was in basic motorola's and ibm's fault as these two did not know where the ppc should go in the future and could not make their mind up about it , so they left apple no choice as to abandon the ppc and go for intel , or amd , but apples choice was intel so far , but who knows .....it took apple 5 years back then to break the silence about the transition to intel .....
but all the developers had been invested in hardware and time to make games running on powerpc processor architecture and from one day to the other they had been made redundant , so all the projects windows
as i think game developers had enough from apple OSX because of that first the transition from OS9 to OSX , then the transition from ppc to intel
microsoft was the only hope for game developers as its actually running really multi platform and shows consistency as games made for win xp still run under windows 7 and despite windows 7 ,xp is still not dead

[dh2005]

I see. Thanks for that.

[hakr]

Please don't take my response in a negative way.

If you believe you can buy a better computer for less money, then why didn't you? Why did you choose to spend more money and then try to prove very hard that you didn't actually need to? What is really the point to all of this?

Note that I stated I liked the OS, which is priced very low, the ergonomics, and the customer service. As I stated, the hardware itself in an iMac is nothing special...just ordinary PC pieces and parts. I suppose the point is that Apple is selling a lot of sizzle. I happen to like the sizzle, but I've built enough PC's over the years to know there's nothing in there besides the usual pieces and parts.

[MacHamster68]

but not to forget ibm's power 6 is still the fastest microprocessor to this day
and even its only a dual core it will run circles around the intel i7
not to mention what the power 7 does which will come out this year

[dh2005]

On another member's recommendation, I just checked-out the Mac Pro.


Let me get this right. You give me:

A great CPU,
A modest quatity of RAM,
A modest hard drive capacity,
A modest graphics card,
A decent DVD drive,
What I assume is a decent motherboard,
Bluetooth networking,
And a nice-looking, roomy tower case.

And I give you two grand... seriously; blow me.


When I saw that price, I figured it came with a display device that I could toggle off. But no. Just the computer.

[shakes head]


Wow. And I thought the IBM ThinkPad was overpriced...

[MacHamster68]

On another member's recommendation, I just checked-out the Mac Pro.


Let me get this right. You give me:

A great CPU,
A modest quatity of RAM,
A modest hard drive capacity,
A modest graphics card,
A decent DVD drive,
What I assume is a decent motherboard,
Bluetooth networking,
And a nice-looking, roomy tower case.

And I give you two grand... seriously; blow me.


When I saw that price, I figured it came with a display device that I could toggle off. But no. Just the computer.

[shakes head]


Wow. And I thought the IBM ThinkPad was overpriced...


welcome in mac world :D but you can configure it further and end up at several grand more , you can max out the price if you chose all options inclusive 2 x 30 " hd displays and all software options to £15,305.90
incl. VAT ,taking that in consideration you must admit in mac world the iMac is a bargain

[dh2005]

Dude; I'm still looking at those specs, trying manfully to work-out where all that money goes...

... the only dazzling component in that machine is the CPU. Everything else is 'pretty good', at best.

[appleguy123]

I've seen nothing in the three Macs I've owned that indicate a better "build" quality than, say, the old built-by-IBM thinkpad I owned.

My iMac 27" model retailed for $2000 or so. Let's assume the screen in the iMac has a retail "value" of about $1000. If that were the case, there's nothing else in the machine that adds up to the other $1000 -

1. A terabyte hard drive is under $100 these days
2. top of the line motherboards, certain MBs more capable than the iMac's,.
are about $150
3. Four gigs of RAM? $100
4. Modest video card? $125
5. "Case"? Under $100
6. CPU? Under 200

Again, I'm not knocking the Apple product...I'm just saying there's really nothing that special about them, hardware-wise.

Oh...and that 27" iMac screen? For $1000, I can buy all manner of computer screens that will outperform it in many ways, without the yellowstains and flickering. :D

Let's go with your prices regardless of their authenticity.
$1000 panel
$100 harddrive
$100 RAM
$125 video card
$100 case
+$200 CPU
--------------------
$1625 The iMac goes at $1999 that gives Apple an 18% margin, did you want them to sell it to do at cost? Below cost?

[dh2005]

Hope you don't mind me chipping in...

... if those component prices that you're quoting are retail prices, there'll be a margin on all of them already. Not one of those components will've cost Apple the full retail price, I assure you.

Apple would therefore be making money on the computer selling it at your notional $1,625, because they'd make a profit on every component. Selling it at $1,999, they'd be making buttloads of profit!

Granted, it costs a little bit to put the components together. But not much. If a nubbin like me can build a computer in a couple of hours with one pair of hands and a couple of screwdrivers, it won't take long at the factory.


EDIT: I realise that I've walked into a debate halfway through. The points I've just made may be old news - in which event, just ignore them.

[SaSaSushi]

And I give you two grand... seriously; blow me.

Ewww, you're going to have to do a LOT better than that, sorry. :eek:

[MacHamster68]

Hope you don't mind me chipping in...

... if those component prices that you're quoting are retail prices, there'll be a margin on all of them already. Not one of those components will've cost Apple the full retail price, I assure you.

Apple would therefore be making money on the computer selling it at your notional $1,625, because they'd make a profit on every component. Selling it at $1,999, they'd be making buttloads of profit!

Granted, it costs a little bit to put the components together. But not much. If a nubbin like me can build a computer in a couple of hours with one pair of hands and a couple of screwdrivers, it won't take long at the factory.


EDIT: I realise that I've walked into a debate halfway through. The points I've just made may be old news - in which event, just ignore them.


and all is made in china

ok lets start again

do you want a computer that is made out of cheap parts build in china but with a great design and a superior operating system ?

[dh2005]

I'm not moaning. Apple can make buttloads of profit, if they like... they'll be making less out of me, on account of the student discount!

[MacHamster68]

the other side of having a mac , people respect you more , as even as i only have a iMac g3 and a eMac on my desk ..people say wow you must do well in your job to be able to afford a Mac
ok mine are used and at least 4 years old , but i just happen to love their design and osx ,
ok you could argue i could get the dell vostro all in one
and hack osx on it and it would run circles around all of my mac's even if i could combine their processing power ,without doubt , and would cost not more
but that would just not be the same
i think own a mac is not something you just buy with money
a mac is somehow like a pet , you just love it , cuddle it fondle it and it makes you smile and you dont look what it cant do , instead you are happy about everything it can do

[dh2005]

Yeah, nicely put.

I think that's why Mac owners have such affection for their computers. That's certainly true of all of my friends who have them.

[hakr]

and all is made in china

ok lets start again

do you want a computer that is made out of cheap parts build in china but with a great design and a superior operating system ?

I'd say "commodity parts," not cheap parts. They're cheap enough, which is why everyone uses them. As I stated,. the design (ergonomics) is nice, and the OS is slightly better. That's all.

I wonder how much it costs Apple to have the pieces and parts put together in the PRC? Two dollars?

[SaSaSushi]

Having come from the home-built PC world to being a Mac convert shortly after the switch to Intel processors 4 years ago, I can tell you that for me it is about the whole package. Of course, there is the physical aspect. The iMac is not just a computer, it is a work of art design-wise. It has the giant screen and the small footprint. It's next to silent. It's got OS X, of course, but also the ability to run Windows 7 natively and fast. It's also got the ability to run Windows virtually and in realtime from inside OS X. It's got the tight integration of hardware and software. There is no hassling with device drivers, etc. All of that hair-pulling is in the past.

Does all of this come at a premium cost? Yes, and alot of people (myself included) consider it a price worth paying. Mac prices have come down with each successive generation.

I know you were using the Mac Pro as an example, and I've no experience with one. I do think, though, that all things considered the 27-inch iMacs are actually priced quite competitively. Could Apple reduce the profit margin? Probably, yes. But their brisk sales probably don't give them any impetus to do so.

[pionata]

Apple's awesome designs just work. They really got the trick now about making a good computer and made it more than just the sum of it's parts.

They actually take into account the heat and noise of the different component and can deliver something that is usable by professional.

Why do you think Mac are used in all professional music studios? They are quiet and don't overheat - You cannot create music seriously on a PC, the whole system noise will leak in your mics and you'll never know when some crack and pop might appear in your recording because of some component incompatibility. I'm more than willing to lose 20% of performance if my computer runs quiet and is stable.

Mac are not about games anyway, they are about creating an experience which is proper for creation, work and multimedia.
I find it hilarious that people complain about the iMac 27" video card. It can freaking run Crysis at over 30fps in super HD, this is quite good for a computer which priority is not gaming at all.

I've seen nothing in the three Macs I've owned that indicate a better "build" quality than, say, the old built-by-IBM thinkpad I owned.

My iMac 27" model retailed for $2000 or so. Let's assume the screen in the iMac has a retail "value" of about $1000. If that were the case, there's nothing else in the machine that adds up to the other $1000 -

1. A terabyte hard drive is under $100 these days
2. top of the line motherboards, certain MBs more capable than the iMac's,.
are about $150
3. Four gigs of RAM? $100
4. Modest video card? $125
5. "Case"? Under $100
6. CPU? Under 200

Again, I'm not knocking the Apple product...I'm just saying there's really nothing that special about them, hardware-wise.

Oh...and that 27" iMac screen? For $1000, I can buy all manner of computer screens that will outperform it in many ways, without the yellowstains and flickering. :D


Why do you lack consideration for the 27" monitor? It's way better than any 30" monitors on the market selling for over 1500-2000$? What about the artists who actually designed the whole thing and the amazing coders behind os X? Check the benchmarks, the processor speed don't mean jack if your running a crappy system like windows, the iMac beats some windows boxes 16 cores.

The iMac is an awesome deal, all professionals and teachers I know at my university are knowledgeable enough to see the amazing potential this machine has for the price.

Buy yourself a plastic Dell with equal component and the non-LED 30" screen and you'll end up near 3000$ for an ugly black box.

[tigereat]

I bought an iMac 27 because I got a limited spac on my desk (Actually I did buy 21.5 model with C2D 3.33 but, it was still not powerful enough for my software jobs, and also has the yellow issue, so I returned it ) and I needed an All-in-One computer.


At the moment, I could not find any All-in-One Pcs (Dell. Sony, Lenovo, HP) offering the same specs as iMac 27 with the same price or closer. Some like Lenovo, and Sony's All-in-One Pcs offer the same price but lower specs and some like HP, are even more expensive but come with the lower specs (See some example below)

So, I think in case of All-in-one computer, iMac is the best in term of money/performance


For example

HP 23inch All-in-One: $2,547 - $390 discount = $2184 without tax

Genuine Windows 7 Professional 64-bit edit
Intel(R) Core(TM) 2 Duo processor T9800 [2.93GHz, 6MB L2, 1066 FSB] edit
Memory 4GB DDR3-1066MHz SDRAM [2 DIMMs] edit
Hard drive 1TB 5400 rpm SATA 3Gb/s hard drive edit
1920x1080 display with 1GB NVIDIA GeForce GT230M,
Primary optical drive Slot-load SuperMulti DVD Burner edit
Networking Wireless-N LAN card and Bluetooth(R ) edit
Keyboard and Mouse HP low-profile, wireless keyboard and HP wireless optical mouse edit



Sony 24inch All-in-One : $ 1999 without Tax

Core™ 2 Quad Q8400S processor (2.66GHz1).
Genuine Microsoft® Windows® 7 Home Premium.
6GB of system memory. up to 12GB
1TB (7200rpm) hard disk drive. MAX 1 TB
A widescreen display 1920 x 1080 with NVIDIA® GeForce® GT 240M GPU and 1GB of dedicated video RAM.
Bluray-Rom

[Jaro65]

Note that I stated I liked the OS, which is priced very low, the ergonomics, and the customer service. As I stated, the hardware itself in an iMac is nothing special...just ordinary PC pieces and parts. I suppose the point is that Apple is selling a lot of sizzle. I happen to like the sizzle, but I've built enough PC's over the years to know there's nothing in there besides the usual pieces and parts.

Ok. I get your point. I feel actually pretty much the same way.... Apple does a truly excellent job with packaging and creating an aura of uniqueness around their products. And I do like the aesthetics of their products and the stability and performance of Unix-based OS. But the innards are nothing special.

[iamthedudeman]

Hmm...umm no the iMac is not a "bargain" for the parts inside. The previous poster was exactly correct. Who cares about an aluminum case, if the box is sitting on the ground (and you can get very nice cases anyway). I don't think he is talking about an all in one, just a box that is as powerful, or more so.

You are going to be able to get a Dell u2711 for under 1000 street price, and it's the same panel as used in the iMac 27". When you add up the parts for the 1156 based cpu's and p55 motherboards...it's WAY cheaper to do it on your own, and you'll get higher quality parts. Very easy to do. Of course if you want OSX none of that matters anyway. It would be nice if Apple gave us a choice however.


Uh, no you can't. It is now selling for $1050. And a all in one is not sitting on the ground. With a Mac you pay for the design as well, not only what is in the machine. And no it's not 'way cheaper'. If at all. Go ahead and build me a 'PC' in your next post with the cost of each part with a screen on par with the 27 inch imac. I guarantee it will come close to the cost of the 27 inch imac.

And remember you get what you pay for.

As far as being a "bargain' look a few posts up for a comparison.

Some of you just don't get it. What makes a Mac a "Mac' is not just the "parts' in the computer. Its the design as well, what that design is made of (Glass and Aluminum) with the most stable most advanced OS on the planet. No drivers, no registry cleaners, no virus software to have to worry about. It just works. And the software that would cost you "hundreds' of dollars extra on a competitors machine come 'standard' on a Mac. It's the whole package.

How about adding that 'price' in with the hardware.

[Techhie]

Uh, no you can't. It is now selling for $1050.

I believe the term "street price" is not equivalent to "Best Buy price" :rolleyes:

[MacHamster68]

one reason a lot of manufacturers produce in china ,is the chinese environmental laws which are and thats very optimistic only existing in a book , the workforce is underpaid average income annually is below 4000 british pound for a industrial worker , the rest lives just above the poverty line which is set by china at about 70 british pound annually income !!!
and about 14 million people in china live below that line , but they are always smiling
and corruption is normal a few do profit from foreign investors

so my guess is the screen you value at about 1000 dollar costs about 200 to produce in china if not less ,so i guess the whole iMac cost inclusive putting it all together packing it and shipping it to your door less then 700 dollar , the rest you pay is pure profit and some taxes

same for other manufaturers , ok others make like dell profit through high quantities

[dh2005]

Mac are not about games anyway, they are about creating an experience which is proper for creation, work and multimedia.
I find it hilarious that people complain about the iMac 27" video card. It can freaking run Crysis at over 30fps in super HD, this is quite good for a computer which priority is not gaming at all.


Why should they be "not about games"? They have all the gaming potential in the World; a beautiful screen, a quality mouse and keyboard, a quick hard drive... excuse me for saying so, but this sounds like Mac apologism, to me.

Crysis is more than two years old, and 30 frames per second is not a particularly staggering framerate. Thus, with all due respect, your observations do not impress me. When spending a lot of money on a computer, I want to know what it can do two years into the future; not two years into the past.

[SaSaSushi]

Why should they be "not about games"? They have all the gaming potential in the World; a beautiful screen, a quality mouse and keyboard, a quick hard drive... excuse me for saying so, but this sounds like Mac apologism, to me.

It's sort of hard to tell by that whether you're arguing for or against the iMac as a gaming machine with that shpiel. lol

Anyway, obviously Macs are not for gamers. That is not to say that Macs can't be used to play games and quite respectably. They are not gaming machines, however. The slim all-in-one design of the case is not conducive to the cooling requirements of a gaming PC. The Magic Mouse is not a "quality" gaming mouse in anyone's universe. The iMac is not marketed to hardcore gamers and hardcore gamers have no interest in it for gaming.

What sort of argument is that? There is something wrong with the iMac because it can't keep up with dedicated gaming PCs that play the latest games at high frame rates? Those PCs also tend to be big, ugly beasts that sound like wind tunnels.

Incidentally, Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 came out about 2 weeks after the 27-inch iMac and I play it at native (2550x1440), all max settings (no AA but who needs it at that resolution anyway?) in Windows 7 Boot Camp and it's smooth as the skin on a baby's behind. Oh, and I'll take 30fps in Crysis too. It's an all-in-one computer not a gaming rig.

[dh2005]

Please don't misunderstand me. If all I wanted was a gaming computer, I wouldn't be looking at the iMac. It has plenty of features and charm that an equivalent-spec PC doesn't have, which is principally why I want one.

Playing games "respectably" is fine. I'm not asking the iMac to win a face-off with an Alienware desktop (those things are butt-ugly, by the way...). However, my initial complaint was that an A-list graphics card wasn't available to anyone who wanted to buy one. At no point have I suggested that all iMacs should come equipped for gaming; I know full well that most people don't want that capability.

But some people do. Such as me. I want the crisp, clean, elegant iMac experience for my productivity software; but I also want to be able to let-loose on some modern games occasionally. Not an outrageous request. Any anybody who says that it is... well, they're taking their defence of the iMac range a step too far, in my opinon.

[MacHamster68]

30 frames per second is not really a lot ..i guess i could get that amount from my eMac too :D

no just for fun my gaming rig here in the corner of the room
gets beyond 120 frames per second easy @ 1600x1200 if i lower to1280x960 near 200 fps
ok its equipped with 2 x gainward gf8800gtx sli which are at the moment quiet respectable gaming cards , not the fastest or most expensive but respectable

but the chap i do the rig up for is not satisfied ..to slow ,gets a new board
the phenom2 x4 9850 is not fast enough now the thing goes intel with a i7 extreme

[Pachang]

Please don't misunderstand me. If all I wanted was a gaming computer, I wouldn't be looking at the iMac. It has plenty of features and charm that an equivalent-spec PC doesn't have, which is principally why I want one.

Playing games "respectably" is fine. I'm not asking the iMac to win a face-off with an Alienware desktop (those things are butt-ugly, by the way...). However, my initial complaint was that an A-list graphics card wasn't available to anyone who wanted to buy one. At no point have I suggested that all iMacs should come equipped for gaming; I know full well that most people don't want that capability.

But some people do. Such as me. I want the crisp, clean, elegant iMac experience for my productivity software; but I also want to be able to let-loose on some modern games occasionally. Not an outrageous request. Any anybody who says that it is... well, they're taking their defence of the iMac range a step too far, in my opinon.

You are quite right to want that. There could have been a better cards in the iMac than the 4850, even though they implemented it quite well. The iMacs actually don't have the 18 month old 4850 in them, they have the mobility 4850 which I think came out last year (I don't know if that is meant to make you feel better or not). The iMac is really thin, and couldn't fit a proper desktop card in that design and do it well I don't think. Instead Apple has mobile cards and MASSIVE heat sinks for them. Have a look at a teardown. But what your're probably asking is: couldn't apple make the 27" iMac slightly thicker and put in a better GPU/better cooling and basically make it the greatest computer of all time for people with your needs (I am one of them). Yes they could.

The answer to your confusion is people that buy apple don't really know what's a good GPU or not. You say you've picked up a screw driver to put a computer together. As soon as you touched that screw driver you fell out of apple's target market :p.

People may respond back at you for pointing out that the 27" iMac GPU is weak with: "Mac are not about games anyway, they are about creating an experience which is proper for creation, work and multimedia" and other hilariousness that has appeared in this thread. As if games aren't multimedia and and people who like OSX and the iMac design don't want to play the games coming out in the next three years. But that's not the real answer as to why apple don't make a computer for people like you (the joke answer is that it is the mac pro).

To me it is a mystery why they don't make a performance iMac with a better GPU. It is pretty much the only important thing PCs have over macs. You can get good GPUs in them (without paying a ridiculous price). I guess apple don't think there is a big enough market for it. I think they are wrong, but I don't have millions of dollars of market research in front of me. All I know is that the thing keeping most of my friends from getting macs is not that they are pc fanboys but because they actually use their computers for more than emails and youtube.

Anyway, the 2010 iMacs might have something more impressive. Don't give up on macs yet!

[ViViDboarder]

As someone who likes to play games and has only, in the last three years, recently started buying Macs, let me try to give you some advice.

First, Macs are great. Doesn't get any simpler if you want something to "just work." I love it. That's why I got my Macbook Pro a couple years ago. I had a desktop for games and wanted something alternative that I didn't have to think about.

Back in Dec. I bought the 21.5" iMac with the ATI card. I still have my old desktop but with an AMD64 3500+ and GeForce 6600GT it's a little dated.

I haven't tried out my new iMac with any of the latest games, but it should be powerful enough to at least play them. Not with maxed out settings though. I also have moved most of my gaming to Xbox 360 and PS3 (and right after I bought a Logitech G11 Keyboard and G5 mouse :p shame!).

The thing with Macs is that you CAN'T upgrade them or customize them very much and I guess it's something you have to accept (unless you want to pay out the butt for a Mac Pro). My next computer purchase is going to be another desktop that I'm going to build myself and that will be a quad core with better specs than the Mac Pro for about 800 because I already have a monitor, keyboard, mouse, HDD, DVD RW, Case, etc... And I'm going to build it ground up to run OSX as one of it's operating systems.

So I'm right with you in that there is no option for someone like us but my advice would be the 21.5" iMac for some games (as mentioned you'll need a USB mouse because the Magic Mouse, while cool, is junk for gaming) and then I'd get an Xbox or PS3 for more deep gaming. I also have a 32" tv and having a system like those two makes it all the more beautiful. :D

the other side of having a mac , people respect you more , as even as i only have a iMac g3 and a eMac on my desk ..people say wow you must do well in your job to be able to afford a Mac
ok mine are used and at least 4 years old , but i just happen to love their design and osx ,
ok you could argue i could get the dell vostro all in one
and hack osx on it and it would run circles around all of my mac's even if i could combine their processing power ,without doubt , and would cost not more
but that would just not be the same
i think own a mac is not something you just buy with money
a mac is somehow like a pet , you just love it , cuddle it fondle it and it makes you smile and you dont look what it cant do , instead you are happy about everything it can do

Funny... I thought these are the same reasons why people DON'T respect Mac owners. :p

[The General]

Illustration: I want to buy a medium-spec computer with solid gaming capability.

DOES NOT COMPUTE

Get a PC, then.

[dh2005]

The iMac is really thin, and couldn't fit a proper desktop card in that design and do it well I don't think. Instead Apple has mobile cards and MASSIVE heat sinks for them.

...

The answer to your confusion is people that buy apple don't really know what's a good GPU or not. You say you've picked up a screw driver to put a computer together. As soon as you touched that screw driver you fell out of apple's target market :p.

...

Anyway, the 2010 iMacs might have something more impressive. Don't give up on macs yet!

Thanks. I didn't know they used laptop cards... although, looking at the profile of the machine, I guess it's pretty clear in hindsight.

It's a pity that Apple don't cater for people like me. Because they really have me on the hook, right now. I'm begging to give them £1,400! But until I see a better graphics card...? I dunno. I think I'm gonna sit tight.

When do we expect the new machines? Next Autumn...?

[sobs at the thought]

Get a PC, then.

Man... ya know, I was told to expect this. Mac types getting sniffy with me because I dare to politely criticise their precious brand.


Read my posts again. Properly. I am very keen to buy a Mac, because of all the things it does better than PCs (is that any clearer...? I have flowcharts). I just want to know why my particular needs, which are not ridiculous in the slightest, are not catered-for in a Mac that costs less than £2,500. And I'm not alone. No, I'm not.

[SaSaSushi]

The answer to your confusion is people that buy apple don't really know what's a good GPU or not. You say you've picked up a screw driver to put a computer together. As soon as you touched that screw driver you fell out of apple's target market :p.

Wrong. I have been building PCs for over 20+ years. I continue to build them and own both.

People may respond back at you for pointing out that the 27" iMac GPU is weak with: "Mac are not about games anyway, they are about creating an experience which is proper for creation, work and multimedia"

iMacs are about everything. It's the total package.

[dh2005]

Okay. Let's try a fresh approach...


... my current PC is toss. It needs replacing. If the iMacs aren't ideal for my needs, I'm gonna have to buy something more timid in the meantime. Save my 'total commitment' salvo for nine or ten months from now!

Does anybody have a view on the 2.53GHz/4GB Mac Mini? Obviously, "solid gaming performance" is off the table, now. But can it run 1080p video glitch-free? D'you reckon it'll run a couple of abandonware emualtors?

And it can run Excel and Firefox simultaneously without crashing six or seven times a day, right...?

(unlike my appalling PC)

[SaSaSushi]

but I also want to be able to let-loose on some modern games occasionally. Not an outrageous request.

That's funny, me too, which is why I bought the iMac.

Now, if I were a hardcore gamer I'd probably build a gaming rig PC and put in an i7 960, a ton of DDR3 1600MHz RAM and dual Radeon 5870s. ;)

Does anybody have a view on the 2.53GHz/4GB Mac Mini? Obviously, "solid gaming performance" is off the table, now. But can it run 1080p video glitch-free?

I don't own a Mac Mini but it appears (http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2289520&tstart=15) to be able to play 1080p quite smoothly, even the 2.26GHz (and 2.0GHz) model.

[dh2005]

That's funny, me too, which is why I bought the iMac.

Well, no offence intended, but your comments are at odds with what certain others have said. Maybe you're right, but I'm not gonna drop that kinda money when there's any doubt about it!


Thanks for the tip-off on the Mac Mini. That's looking increasingly like a good interim option.

I have a vacant VGA connector on my television; and there's a MDP-to-VGA adaptor, is there not? Would I be losing much, using an analogue video connecton? My TV's a 32" 1080i LCD.

[InfoSecmgr]

i dont think that the graphics in the macs are low end , macs always have been good working computers for movie- , photo-editing and graphical work in general
and its the gaming industry that forces gamers to more and more expensive graphic cards which makes gaming a expensive hobby , as with nearly every new game you need to upgrade your rig or get a new one and start upgrading again
a intel iMac is simply no gaming rig , and it was never the intention of apple to produce a gaming rig when they introduced the intel iMacs ..at least to my knowledge

I'd have to agree here. The "top of the line" graphics cards are marketed toward "hobbyists". Read: gamers. I was dissatisfied with the gaming performance of my iMac once I started playing anything beyond UT2004 (which runs smooth as glass on my 2600 HD equipped iMac), so i built a PC around a 9800GTX+ card last year. It was a great setup until the newest games came out and they really tax the system on full graphics (stuff like L4D 1 ran great, now L4D 2 leaves a lot to be desired in terms of framerate).

I suppose the bottom line is, if you are REALLY that concerned about having the latest graphics cards, a PC is the only way to go. However, being in grad school, the last thing I generally worry about is gaming (that is for the weekends). I have LOADS of windows open. Safari tabs left and right, PDF's open, media files, etc, and both my Mac's do just fine. I'm not saying you can't do that on a PC, of course you can. Honestly with me it comes down to personal preference and nothing more. I've been using Mac's since I was 5 years old, PC's not long after that. I just took a liking to the Mac interface more.

[dh2005]

Thanks for your insights.


I think there's a culture divide, here. Coming from PCs, I don't see what the big effin' problem is asking for the option to fit a better graphics card; Mac'ites, on the other hand, don't see what my effin' problem is. Looks like everyone's going to have to agree to differ.

Speaking about games (I'm talking NES, SNES, Genesis, and old skool MAME...), do decent emulators exist for OS X? Or would I need to run Boot Camp and Windows 7?

[SaSaSushi]

Well, no offence intended, but your comments are at odds with what certain others have said. Maybe you're right, but I'm not gonna drop that kinda money when there's any doubt about it!

No offense taken. I'm not sure what others have said but I can only speak from my own personal experiences. My i7 plays the games I enjoy very well. Do I expect it to run the games of 2 years from now at native resolution with blindingly fast frame rates? No.

Perhaps a home-built PC is your best solution. That way you can put in exactly what you want and have the ability to swap out parts in future.

I do understand your complaint about the relatively dated GPUs Apple uses in their machines, so we're sort of going in circles there. Yes, if it is critical for you to get a machine with the very latest GPU the iMac is not for you.

What is it that attracted you to the Mac anyway? ;)

[dh2005]

It's as much that I've been repelled from the PC, as I've been attracted to the Mac!

My last two PCs have both gradually died, each of them lasting a little over a year; bloated with crapware that's apparently impossible to remove (Windows says it's gone, but it isn't...), running like turd, and crashing half a dozen times a day. I hate these things. I need a fresh approach.

I have several friends with Macs, and they got in my ear about defecting. I played with an iMac and a couple of MacBook Pros and I thought, "mm. Wouldn't it be nice to have something that worked as well as this...?".

[lilo777]

Case under a $100.

The Aluminum itself, just Aluminum would cost that much. What are you smoking?

The block of Aluminum itself would cost a $100, let alone the design. Here is a Aluminum 20lb "canister' for $104. Add the design and the manufacturing cost for such a design and the tempered glass and you are well over a $100. Closer to $200 is more like it.


http://www.aquariumplants.com/Aluminum_CO2_Cylinders_Tanks_p/t.htm

I have never owned a thinkpad that was all Aluminum unibody and tempered glass. How is Plastic better than Aluminum in terms of build quality?

Everything you just mentioned, every part added up is around $850. Say the panel costs $1000 and the internals are worth $850 that is still $1850 and how much you think the Aluminum and glass enclosure costs? Add that up to and the design. How about adding the Magic Mouse while your add it. I guarantee it costs twice as much as the cheapo mice out on the market. But there is nothing special about a multi-touch mouse. Right?

The 27 inch imac is a bargain for what you get. Expensive yes, but the fact of the matter is that there is not a PC All in one on the market with the Specs of the imac. Not one. The only way Apple is getting a profit is that they are not paying retail for the imacs parts, if they were they would most likely not make a profit on the machine.

So yes, build quality and quality of components are superior to most, if not all of Apples' competitors.

Nothing special about a 27inch beyond HD all in one computer with a all aluminum unibody glass body and multi-touch mouse. No nothing special at all.

There are tons of similar All in ones on the market right now. :rolleyes:

Aluminum case from Lian Li (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811112227) (i.e. premium quality) - $60

[sfmountainbiker]

I haven't been following the conversation, but in terms of gaming I've found the i5 to be more than capable. I'm not nitpicky about framerates as long as things don't hick-up to a crawl. I do however, nitpick about graphics details, and only like to play in the highest res/detail possible.

That said, so far on the i5 I've played just about every modern title out there with few problems. I was particularly impressed with Modern Warfare 2 and Dirt 2 graphics on the system. I've also played some old school (SNES) games in OSX using an emulator, so there you go.

It did take a few tries, but I now have a flawless 27" iMac and couldn't be happier with it. Just a great machine.

[lilo777]

It's as much that I've been repelled from the PC, as I've been attracted to the Mac!

My last two PCs have both gradually died, each of them lasting a little over a year; bloated with crapware that's apparently impossible to remove (Windows says it's gone, but it isn't...), running like turd, and crashing half a dozen times a day. I hate these things. I need a fresh approach.

I have several friends with Macs, and they got in my ear about defecting. I played with an iMac and a couple of MacBook Pros and I thought, "mm. Wouldn't it be nice to have something that worked as well as this...?".

How is that relevant to original question? How does the fact that you "defected" help those who want to by Mac with a decent graphic card? You might defect back to PC tomorrow but the nagging problem of Macs having worse specs than PCs will remain.

[rtrt]

Speaking about games (I'm talking NES, SNES, Genesis, and old skool MAME...), do decent emulators exist for OS X?

there used to be a mame version for mac - macmame iirc.

think i remember having it way back on my imac g5.

whether it's still around i'm not sure

[SaSaSushi]

there used to be a mame version for mac - macmame iirc.

think i remember having it way back on my imac g5.

whether it's still around i'm not sure

There is indeed: Mame OS X (http://mameosx.sourceforge.net/):)

I use it quite frequently to remind me of all the quarters I wasted playing these games as a teenager.

[dh2005]

How is that relevant to original question? How does the fact that you "defected" help those who want to by Mac with a decent graphic card? You might defect back to PC tomorrow but the nagging problem of Macs having worse specs than PCs will remain.


I really don't follow you. You seem to be affronted that I have two separate thoughts in my head.

I would add that I opened this thread to help myself. If anyone else gets helped in the process, great. At no point have I held myself out as trying to help others. That's a deeply confusing comment.



EDIT: I see you've signed-off, so I'll explain everything that's brought me to this point.


1. I have had a number of serious problems with PCs; two have failed in 26 months.

2. Friends of mine with Macs encouraged me to try their machines.

3. I did so, and found their slick design and useability extremely appealing.

4. I decided to buy a Mac.

5. I went to apple.com/uk and tried to spec an iMac with a good graphics card, and found that this was impossible.

6. This confused me, so I opened this thread.

7. The bottom line seems to be that good graphics cards aren't available in an iMac, yet.

8. Because I need a new computer ASAP, I am now leaning towards a Mac Mini.

9. I may revisit the iMac range when new ones are released that suit my needs more comprehensively.


All clear, now?

There is indeed: Mame OS X (http://mameosx.sourceforge.net/):)

I use it quite frequently to remind me of all the quarters I wasted playing these games as a teenager.

Great. Thank you for that.


Could I PM you about a related matter?

[SaSaSushi]

Could I PM you about a related matter?

Absolutely, fire away. :)

[Pachang]

Well, no offence intended, but your comments are at odds with what certain others have said. Maybe you're right, but I'm not gonna drop that kinda money when there's any doubt about it!


Don't be in doubt!
sushi is right about the iMac being able to play games. As he said it can play COD6 at native res at more than playable resolution.
I don't know when the new ver of imacs will come out. I'd say some time in May as a very rough estimate.

[dh2005]

Ugh...!

May?! That's so soon, it makes me wonder whether I should wait and buying nothing in the meantime... but I need a new computer, quickly. This one stinks. Something more to think about...!


Thanks for your view.

[cwwilson]

I was originally going to buy a MBP but when I found out I won't be travelling near as much as I thought I was this year, I decided to switch my future purchase to an iMac. I won't be gaming much at all on it because I have a PS3 and an Xbox 360 for my gaming needs but the iMac really does seem like a good deal if you ask me. This only thing that disappoints is the fact they're still putting the old 9400m onboard in the base model. With the RAM, hard drive space and 3.0+ GHz CPU it packs, isn't that somewhat of a bottleneck? Would it be better to run one of nVIDIA's mobile GT-series cards instead? Other than that, I very much look forward to becoming a Mac convert in about a week's time and it just so hapens to be the week of my birthday when i'll be getting my iMac. :)

[dh2005]

See...?

All you nay-sayers, take note. My complaint is not uncommon among people looking to join the Mac community.

I think Apple should give this matter some attention. All they need do is offer the option to a superior graphics card - that way, those who were never interested won't need to pay for it; and those who are interested can happily get onbaord.

[HLdan]

See...?

All you nay-sayers, take note. My complaint is not uncommon among people looking to join the Mac community.

I think Apple should give this matter some attention. All they need do is offer the option - that way, those who were never interested won't need to pay for it; and those who are interested can happily get onbaord.

Well, TBH, your complaint (while quite valid) IS uncommon. Remember this is a geek forum and most people here want the most enviable specs to brag about. MR is less then 1/10th of 1% of Apple's customer base and most people who are tired of the pain of frustration of running a Windows PC come to the Apple store and are generally looking for a computer that solves their problems and is easy to use. Most people are not serious gamers and are not looking for the latest GPU.

[dh2005]

Well, TBH, your complaint (while quite valid) IS uncommon. Remember this is a geek forum and most people here want the most enviable specs to brag about. MR is less then 1/10th of 1% of Apple's customer base and most people who are tired of the pain of frustration of running a Windows PC come to the Apple store and are generally looking for a computer that solves their problems and is easy to use. Most people are not serious gamers and are not looking for the latest GPU.

All good points. But consider this; myself, the above poster and another member who started his own thread today have expressed almost identical complaints in the last four days. Consider that for every x people who're thinking it, only a handful are going to post on a forum.

And what's to stop Apple aspiring to add people like us to their 'customer base'? I spend a lot of money on computing hardware, every year. I should think they'd be happy to have me. And I'm not asking for a root-and-branch reconstruction of their iMac range. I'm asking for the option to add a superior graphics card.

[HLdan]

All good points. But consider this; myself, the above poster and another member who started his own thread today have expressed almost identical complaints in the last four days. Consider that for every x people who're thinking it, only a handful are going to post on a forum.

And what's to stop Apple aspiring to add people like us to their 'customer base'? I spend a lot of money on computing hardware, every year. I should think they'd be happy to have me. And I'm not asking for a root-and-branch reconstruction of their iMac range. I'm asking for the option to add a superior graphics card.


Okay, first I completely agree with you, secondly I didn't clarify myself. I have a 27" iMac i7 on order, waiting for delivery on Tuesday. I was originally going to go with the Core2 Duo 3.06Ghz but I want the most bang for the buck and the GPU is always important to me but for multiple reasons. Some of Apple's high end software requires a hefty GPU, AND I'm with you about the gaming. I like to play a few games and a good GPU will last for quite a while. Thing is, Apple has never given the top GPU in their computers because although there are some good 3D games on OS X, gaming has never really been something Apple promotes for the Macintosh.

Sorry, they don't care about Windows gaming, because a Mac is not a Windows machine regardless of Bootcamp. But I agree, options are always good. I think the openness of the iPad is a good start with Apple not requiring any contracts for the 3G service giving people the option to use it with any carrier. Hopefully we'll see more options for the computers.

[dh2005]

Agreed. Let's hope so.

[iamthedudeman]

I believe the term "street price" is not equivalent to "Best Buy price" :rolleyes:

I wouldn't know, I don't shop at best buy. ;)

Do a google search, and see if you can buy one for "way under' $1050.

Go ahead. See what you find. :apple:

one reason a lot of manufacturers produce in china ,is the chinese environmental laws which are and thats very optimistic only existing in a book , the workforce is underpaid average income annually is below 4000 british pound for a industrial worker , the rest lives just above the poverty line which is set by china at about 70 british pound annually income !!!
and about 14 million people in china live below that line , but they are always smiling
and corruption is normal a few do profit from foreign investors

so my guess is the screen you value at about 1000 dollar costs about 200 to produce in china if not less ,so i guess the whole iMac cost inclusive putting it all together packing it and shipping it to your door less then 700 dollar , the rest you pay is pure profit and some taxes

same for other manufaturers , ok others make like dell profit through high quantities


That is not the issue here. The question at hand is that can you build your own "PC' with better specs for way less. And I am saying no. I know for a fact you cannot. So the price at $1050 is the going rate for a monitor of equal quality of the 27 inch imac.

Aluminum case from Lian Li (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811112227) (i.e. premium quality) - $60


That is about one fifth the amount of Aluminum that is in the 27 inch Imac. Nice try though.

[MacHamster68]

That is not the issue here. The question at hand is that can you build your own "PC' with better specs for way less. And I am saying no. I know for a fact you cannot. So the price at $1050 is the going rate for a monitor of equal quality of the 27 inch imac.

equal quality?
that was sarcasm was it?
as we all know by now that there is a serious quality issue with these 27"screens

[archipellago]

Okay. Let's try a fresh approach...


... my current PC is toss. It needs replacing. If the iMacs aren't ideal for my needs, I'm gonna have to buy something more timid in the meantime. Save my 'total commitment' salvo for nine or ten months from now!

Does anybody have a view on the 2.53GHz/4GB Mac Mini? Obviously, "solid gaming performance" is off the table, now. But can it run 1080p video glitch-free? D'you reckon it'll run a couple of abandonware emualtors?

And it can run Excel and Firefox simultaneously without crashing six or seven times a day, right...?

(unlike my appalling PC)


sat here running win7 on a dual core celeron.. 2GB ram... $500 inc. monitor.

6 firefox tabs and 6 excel worksheets

no hiccups, quiet and smooth.

if your PC is crashing 6 times a day then there is something seriously wrong with it and the problem is more likely to be the one that faces you when you look in a mirror, rather than anything Win specific.

[dh2005]

if your PC is crashing 6 times a day then there is something seriously wrong with it and the problem is more likely to be the one that faces you when you look in a mirror, rather than anything Win specific.

I don't know whether you meant to insult me, but that doesn't read terribly nicely.


It's not really anybody else's business to question what I'm doing. Your experience is yours, and mine is my own. I hope your PC remains functional; but my previous two PCs haven't, and it's time for a change.

[archipellago]

I don't know whether you meant to insult me, but that doesn't read terribly nicely.


It's not really anybody else's business to question what I'm doing. Your experience is yours, and mine is my own. I hope your PC remains functional; but my previous two PCs haven't, and it's fine for a change.


it wasn't meant to be insulting, maybe the way you positioned a 'PC' as crashing 6 times a day as 'normal' was the same.

If YOU can do that to a PC then you'll do it to a Mac too.

here's a tip..

take the amount of money you were going to spend on a Mac... subtract $250, then go spend that on a decent brand Win 7 PC.

you'll be more productive and richer. .. :p

Macs don't just work, the distortion reality field can sometimes be mighty tempting though..

[dh2005]

it wasn't meant to be insulting, maybe the way you positioned a 'PC' as crashing 6 times a day as 'normal' was the same.


I said that "my" PC did that. At no point did I say this was "normal". Whatever you've read between the lines, you've extrapolated it yourself.

Your comment towards me was pointedly personal, making it much more potentially insulting. The comparison is fatuous.


As for the rest of your comments; Macs are at least different, and I want to try something different.

[archipellago]

I said that "my" PC did that. At no point did I say this was "normal". Whatever you've read between the lines, you've extrapolated it yourself.

Your comment towards me was pointedly personal, making it much more potentially insulting. The comparison is fatuous.


As for the rest of your comments; Macs are at least different, and I want to try something different.


no they aren't different, they just cost more but look prettier.

don't say I didn't warn you.

[dh2005]

no they aren't different, they just cost more but look prettier.

don't say I didn't warn you.

Those are two ways in which they're "different", are they not...?


And I won't say that you didn't warn me; you've warned me several times, and rather rudely. I'm sure that'll stick in my memory.

[archipellago]

Those are two ways in which they're "different", are they not...?


And I won't say that you didn't warn me; you've warned me several times, and rather rudely. I'm sure that'll stick in my memory.



cool...;)

[Pachang]

look at the story (http://www.macrumors.com/2010/01/31/steve-jobs-at-apple-town-hall-meeting-google-adobe-next-iphone-2010-macs-and-more/) on the front page.

"New Macs for 2010 are going to take Apple to the next level"

That sounds somewhat promising. I hope it doesn't mean they are going to take iMacs to the next level of thinness.

anyway my guess about when new iMacs come out could be way off. If you think about it, intel aren't releasing any new procs till 2011. So the procs for the 2010 iMac are already out, so they could come out in March or April even.

Another thing to take into consideration is the release date of lightpeak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightpeak).
according to engadget Apple intends to introduce LP systems in Q4 2010.

The "to the next level" comments might have something to do with LP.

if it is safe to assume that all macs will get LP at the same time then we are looking at new iMacs in the next few months and then the next update at the end of the year introducing LP. They probably wouldn't wait until Q3 to introduce new iMacs and then update them again in Q4.

The mobility 5800s aren't out yet, but they will be soon. I guess apple will use the mobility 5850, but you can never know. Honestly I think I'll be happy enough with that card to buy a new iMac when they come out.
I have the same needs (computer-wise) as you, and even though you can get way better cards in other places, OSX more than makes up for it. Keep watching macrumors! We'll see new laptops soon and then info about new iMacs will start to trickle in.

PS don't get angry at me if I'm wrong :p

[MacHamster68]

we need to make another approach towards mac's

get both the cheaper pc for your games and from the substantial amount of money you safe there , get a iMac g5 for its speed, get a iMac g4 1.25 ghz 20" , yes the ilamp , for the style in your life , and experience safe surfing without worry's about worms ,trojans ,viruses , get a iMac g3 for its cuteness and for its ability to play os9 games

so you can have the best imac's apple has produced , plus a pc for gaming and still have money left over for a holiday

[SaSaSushi]

if your PC is crashing 6 times a day then there is something seriously wrong with it and the problem is more likely to be the one that faces you when you look in a mirror, rather than anything Win specific.

I don't know whether you meant to insult me, but that doesn't read terribly nicely.

I see you've met Archie.

Most of us have learned to ignore him. He's harmless but he does try his best to get under everyone's skin. It's sort of his raison d'être in here.

[dh2005]

No bother.


I looked-up a YouTube video on upgrading the Mini. Looks a bit fiddly... if and when I come to add anything to it, I'll probably pay someone to do it for me.

[pionata]

look at the story (http://www.macrumors.com/2010/01/31/steve-jobs-at-apple-town-hall-meeting-google-adobe-next-iphone-2010-macs-and-more/) on the front page.

"New Macs for 2010 are going to take Apple to the next level"

That sounds somewhat promising. I hope it doesn't mean they are going to take iMacs to the next level of thinness.

anyway my guess about when new iMacs come out could be way off. If you think about it, intel aren't releasing any new procs till 2011. So the procs for the 2010 iMac are already out, so they could come out in March or April even.

Another thing to take into consideration is the release date of lightpeak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightpeak).
according to engadget Apple intends to introduce LP systems in Q4 2010.

The "to the next level" comments might have something to do with LP.

if it is safe to assume that all macs will get LP at the same time then we are looking at new iMacs in the next few months and then the next update at the end of the year introducing LP. They probably wouldn't wait until Q3 to introduce new iMacs and then update them again in Q4.

The mobility 5800s aren't out yet, but they will be soon. I guess apple will use the mobility 5850, but you can never know. Honestly I think I'll be happy enough with that card to buy a new iMac when they come out.
I have the same needs (computer-wise) as you, and even though you can get way better cards in other places, OSX more than makes up for it. Keep watching macrumors! We'll see new laptops soon and then info about new iMacs will start to trickle in.

PS don't get angry at me if I'm wrong :p

I'll bet you they plan touch screen home computers based somewhat on the macbook air slim model.

If it's meant to bring apple to the next level it will be something new, not the iMac. There wont be any significant jump in technology, so what he means must have to do with the user interface design.

[AmbientLife]

i beleive this is a fair arguement but. ive had no problem using apple computers and play to use them for the rest of my life at this rate
however. for the price i think the spec could be boosted a tad, but the build quality and designs are incredible and the OS is just fantastic

[quadG5guy]

I agree in that there should be options for the GPU, just like they give you options for HDD, Memory, and CPU.