What We Learned About Apple Yesterday [Archive]

LethalWolfe

Jan 28, 2010, 12:55 PM

*LTD*

Jan 28, 2010, 05:21 PM

Not to turn this into another Flash thread, but Flash is here today. It's used by a lot of websites today. If you want to boast about offering the best browsing experience you need to support Flash. Apple's lack of support for what they seemingly see as competition in content distribution, namely Flash and Blu-ray, is irritating to say the least.

Lethal

Baloney.

Flash is never coming to the iPhone, iPod touch, or iPad. Ever. It's not a technical limitation, its a conscious choice by Apple. And what are you missing really? Ads? Flash sucks. Its a processor hog (especially on OSX). Youtube is already transitioning their videos to the open HTML 5 standard, which the iPhone/iPod touch/iPad supports. Flash is dying. Thank God.

appleguy123

Jan 28, 2010, 05:27 PM

Baloney.

Flash is never coming to the iPhone, iPod touch, or iPad. Ever. It's not a technical limitation, its a conscious choice by Apple. And what are you missing really? Ads? Flash sucks. Its a processor hog (especially on OSX). Youtube is already transitioning their videos to the open HTML 5 standard, which the iPhone/iPod touch/iPad supports. Flash is dying. Thank God.

What am I missing? oh I don't know, maybe >75% of all video sites. And if you are about to pull the whole HTML5 argument Flash is here now and will be for sometime.

*LTD*

Jan 28, 2010, 05:32 PM

What am I missing? oh I don't know, maybe >75% of all video sites. And if you are about to pull the whole HTML5 argument Flash is here now and will be for sometime.

If it's dying on YouTube, it's dying - period.

kdarling

Jan 28, 2010, 05:47 PM

What am I missing? oh I don't know, maybe >75% of all video sites.

Not to mention all my daughter's favorite kid pages and games.

And a great many technical news sites, so I always have to go back to my "real" laptop to see reviews or demos on the "real" internet.

Btw, I hardly ever see Flash based ads. Where the heck do these other people web surf all the time? Porn sites? Frankly, I see more DHTML based ads.

LethalWolfe

Jan 28, 2010, 06:04 PM

Baloney.

Um, what did I say that was baloney?

Is Flash common today on the internet? Yes.
Does the iPad support Flash? No.

I *know* it's a choice by Apple. Where did I say I did not? I know it's not a technical limitation. Where did I say it was?

If Flash is gone from the internet 100% in three years. Fine. I don't really care about Flash and I really don't care what will be the best way to browse the internet in three years. I care about browsing the internet *today* and Flash is out there a lot *today* so a device that cannot support Flash *today* cannot give you the best web browsing experience. At least not once you take your head out of Steve's RDF.

Lethal

Peace

Jan 28, 2010, 06:07 PM

Um, what did I say that was baloney?

Is Flash common today on the internet? Yes.
Does the iPad support Flash? No.

I *know* it's a choice by Apple. Where did I say I did not? I know it's not a technical limitation. Where did I say it was?

If Flash is gone from the internet 100% in three years. Fine. I don't really care about Flash and I really don't care what will be the best way to browse the internet in three years. I care about browsing the internet *today* and Flash is out there a lot *today* so a device that cannot support Flash *today* cannot give you the best web browsing experience. At least not once you take your head out of Steve's RDF.

Lethal

Just out of curiosity can you please provide links to THREE of the most important websites YOU view Flash on ?

MTI

Jan 28, 2010, 06:10 PM

I'm sure he was disappointed that he won't be able to run "Farmville" on the iPad . . . :D

LethalWolfe

Jan 28, 2010, 06:43 PM

Tutorials on sites like CreativeCOW (http://www.creativecow.net), VideoCopilot (http://www.videocopilot.net) use Flash and Vimeo (http://www.vimeo.com/) is becoming a more popular haunt than YouTube for indie filmmakers to showcase and share their stuff.
Content on GameTrailers.com (http://www.gametrailers.com) goes up first as Flash if it's hot media and some content is Flash only like Bonus Round and GameTrailersTV. And, of course, Hulu (http://www.hulu.com) uses Flash. News sites like CNN (http://www.cnn.com), MSNBC (http://www.msnbc.com) and the BBC (http://www.bbc.com) also depend on Flash for video. I also do all my banking online and some elements, non-vital elements AFAIK, of my bank's web site are in Flash.

Of course my personal browsing habits aren't really at issue here. Even if I never went to website that used Flash that doesn't mean that other people don't need to go to websites that use Flash. The issue is Apple's deliberate crippling of what they are marketing as the best web browsing device out there today.

Lethal

mooblie

Jan 28, 2010, 06:55 PM

Just out of curiosity can you please provide links to THREE of the most important websites YOU view Flash on ?

BBC News (http://news.bbc.co.uk/)
NYT (http://www.nytimes.com/)
Die Welt (http://www.welt.de/)
El Pais (http://www.elpais.com/global/)
ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/)
Le Monde (http://www.lemonde.fr/)
CBC (http://www.cbc.ca/news/)
...shall I go on...?

Where do you live? Find a national news site...

neiltc13

Jan 28, 2010, 06:55 PM

People who say that Flash is not important clearly don't know what they're talking about. Flash is the industry standard for online video, (and is used by many of my favourite streaming video websites including BBC iPlayer, ITV Player, Gametrailers, YouTube, Vimeo, Flickr, BBC News among others) but it is also the industry standard for browser based gaming.

The people who buy netbooks are the people who want a low cost laptop and these are also the people who love to play games online. I'm not only talking about sites like Pogo.com, Yahoo Games or iSketch, but also those who play games for real money on the countless bingo and poker websites as well as millions of people who play games on Facebook.

The huge irony is that games like Farmville are immensely popular and would be incredibly well suited to a device like this, but without Flash they cannot be played.

MTI

Jan 28, 2010, 07:24 PM

Farmville addiction is not pretty. ;)

*LTD*

Jan 28, 2010, 07:26 PM

LethalWolfe

Jan 28, 2010, 07:58 PM

http://gizmodo.com/5454115/first-youtube-now-vimeo-how-html5-could-finally-kill-flash-video

Oops.

Flash is dying.

Once again, Apple proves masterfully prescient.
Seriously? Is this really so hard for you to comprehend?

For the 3rd time. I. Don't. Care. About. Flash.

I care about being able to surf to any site I want to right now, today, in 2010, especially if I'm using a device that is primarily built to surf the web. Flash is dying? Fine. Great. When it's completely dead and gone I won't care that Apple won't support it on select devices. But it's not dead. It's not gone. It's used on a lot of sites and those sites are not accessible using Apple's iPad which is being marketed as the best web browsing experience available.

Trying to say that in a few years, or whenever you think HTML5 will replace Flash 100%, the iPad will work great for browsing the web doesn't change the fact that the iPad is crippled today.

Lethal

*LTD*

Jan 28, 2010, 08:04 PM

Trying to say that in a few years, or whenever you think HTML5 will replace Flash 100%, the iPad will work great for browsing the web doesn't change the fact that the iPad is crippled today.

Lethal

It won't take a few years. YouTube's already on board, along with Vimeo. Google is pushing it.

The iPad isn't for sale today.

LethalWolfe

Jan 28, 2010, 08:06 PM

It won't take a few years. YouTube's already on board, along with Vimeo. Google is pushing it.

The iPad isn't for sale today.

So Flash will be 100% gone off the internet in less than 60 days? Good to know.

Lethal

Frisco

Jan 28, 2010, 08:14 PM

Without Flash you don't have a true Internet. Even Jobs demonstration proved that yesterday.

rdowns

Jan 28, 2010, 08:18 PM

localoid

Jan 28, 2010, 08:48 PM

iPad doesn't have Flash support because of the pissing contest between Apple and Adobe... Frankly, I don't give a damn about Flash, but it is widely used on Internet today. According to Adobe, 75% of all videos on the Web use Flash.

From: Adobe (http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/flashplayer10/) (click the "Product Details" tab)

When will Flash Player be available on the iPhone?

Adobe needs full support from Apple beyond what is available through the SDK to enable Web browsing of Flash-based content on the iPhone. While we have been working hard to make the browser plug-in available, without increased co-operation from Apple, it will not be possible. Adobe is therefore focusing our development work on the major smartphone platforms that are working with us to deliver the most innovative and complete web browsing experience. With more than 85 percent of the top 100 websites using Flash and approximately 75% of all videos on the Web using Flash, we still believe that Flash on the iPhone would greatly benefit the millions of joint Apple and Adobe customers.

rhett7660

Jan 28, 2010, 09:03 PM

I am just curious, does anybody know for sure if Flash is not supported on the iPad? I know with plugins you can disable it, but I am wondering if a plugin was stopping it or if it is using the same non supporting browser as on the iPhone.

*LTD*

Jan 28, 2010, 09:54 PM

mooblie

Jan 29, 2010, 03:59 AM

Adobe has their own statement on this. I'll try to dig up the details . . .
Were you thinking of this statement?:

http://www.pamenter.plus.com/store/FlashOniPod.jpg

....or the Adobe blog here (http://blogs.adobe.com/flashplatform/2010/01/apples_ipad_--_a_broken_link.html).

*LTD*

Jan 29, 2010, 08:19 AM

Were you thinking of this statement?:

....or the Adobe blog here (http://blogs.adobe.com/flashplatform/2010/01/apples_ipad_--_a_broken_link.html).

I was thinking about this:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/27/AR2010012704222.html

But I'm not sure whether it really clears anything up. It did catch my attention, though.

fox10078

Jan 29, 2010, 08:41 PM

BBC News (http://news.bbc.co.uk/)
NYT (http://www.nytimes.com/)
Die Welt (http://www.welt.de/)
El Pais (http://www.elpais.com/global/)
ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/)
Le Monde (http://www.lemonde.fr/)
CBC (http://www.cbc.ca/news/)
...shall I go on...?

Where do you live? Find a national news site...

Please show me on BBC were it has flash that aren't adds? Cause I read it everyday and right clicked the entire site and only saw it on adds.

EDIT: I was wrong the little videos on the articles are flash, But i hardly use those. Thats just me though, can't say that for the entire world

KnightWRX

Jan 29, 2010, 09:06 PM

http://gizmodo.com/5454115/first-youtube-now-vimeo-how-html5-could-finally-kill-flash-video

Oops.

Flash is dying.

Once again, Apple proves masterfully prescient.

2 video sites supporting playing videos without flash on something like 10% of browsers.

Flash isn't dying as long as Microsoft refuses to implement HTML5 video. And if they do, if they go the Firefox route and refuse to implement it using H.264 as their codec, you still won't see Flash die.

Right now, YouTube and Vimeo HTML5 is only available on browsers which aren't in the Top 2.

neiltc13

Jan 29, 2010, 09:24 PM

Please show me on BBC were it has flash that aren't adds? Cause I read it everyday and right clicked the entire site and only saw it on adds.

EDIT: I was wrong the little videos on the articles are flash, But i hardly use those. Thats just me though, can't say that for the entire world

The BBC offers a huge amount of video content via Flash. It has a seven day catch up TV service called iPlayer which is available to UK residents and allows them to view just about any TV show the corporation has broadcast in the past week at any time. It also streams all of its television and radio channels live online using Flash.

fox10078

Jan 29, 2010, 09:25 PM

Ah I see, Being an American I'm not allowed to use Iplayer.

appleguy123

Jan 29, 2010, 09:27 PM

http://gizmodo.com/5454115/first-youtube-now-vimeo-how-html5-could-finally-kill-flash-video

Oops.

Flash is dying.

Once again, Apple proves masterfully prescient.

It doesn't matter if Flash is "Dying" you and I are always dying, but we are till useful now. Should we just kill ourselves because there will soon be a future without us?

I was really sad at how Steve looked. I hope he gets better soon, looks like he has lost more weight.

snberk103

Jan 29, 2010, 09:32 PM

Ah I see, Being an American I'm not allowed to use Iplayer.

That's OK... not being American means I can't watch Hula.com, and a lot of other TV shows on American websites. I'm sure you'll get over it. :)

Consultant

Jan 30, 2010, 02:31 AM

Not to turn this into another Flash thread, but Flash is here today. It's used by a lot of websites today. If you want to boast about offering the best browsing experience you need to support Flash. Apple's lack of support for what they seemingly see as competition in content distribution, namely Flash and Blu-ray, is irritating to say the least.

Lethal

Why Apple is pushing HTML5 instead:
http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/10/06/html5-assault-on-adobe-flash-heats-up-with-clicktoflash/

YouTube is now available in HTML5 videos. (and mp4 videos for iPhone for years).

davino

Jan 30, 2010, 10:31 AM

that image looks familiar....

mooblie

Feb 5, 2010, 10:32 AM

Please show me on BBC were it has flash that aren't adds? Cause I read it everyday and right clicked the entire site and only saw it on adds.

EDIT: I was wrong the little videos on the articles are flash, But i hardly use those. Thats just me though, can't say that for the entire world

I don't understand "...right clicked the entire site and only saw it on adds".

There aren't any ads on BBC. That's not how it get its funding. Where can you see ads on the BBC???

However, my actual reference was to BBC News. Note the word News! Here. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/) Find any video clip. It will be a news video clip. It will not be an ad. It will be in Flash.

dejo

Feb 5, 2010, 10:48 AM

There aren't any ads on BBC. That's not how it get its funding. Where can you see ads on the BBC???
Um, maybe I'm imagining these then:

*LTD*

Feb 5, 2010, 11:54 AM

Consumers dont actually care about Flash.

The Macalope is spot-on:

http://macalope.com/2010/01/31/how-do-you-solve-a-problem-like-flash/#comments

How do you solve a problem like Flash?
January 31, 2010 by The Macalope
Who Can Do Something About Those Blue Boxes?

Users could make Apple change its mind by refusing to buy iPhones, iPod Touches, and iPads because they don’t support Flash. That does not seem to be happening. In fact, iPhone sales are accelerating.

That’s because the question is simpler: What do these users want more, Flash or the iPhone? Flash doesn’t change your life the way the iPhone can. Flash is a platform that enables developers, not users. Sure, you might not be able to play that one game you like, you might not be able to see that actor’s web site, but you’ll open so many other doors you won’t care anymore.

The same will be true with the iPad.

The Macalope’s sorry if he sounds like some crazy iPad nut. No one knows for sure if it’s going to be a success, but he sure thinks it will. And something that essentially just makes developers lives easier isn’t going to stand in its way.

So true.

Nano2k

Feb 5, 2010, 02:34 PM

People dont even know what Flash is so how can they be against it? they just click on the install message when it appears...

iPhone is barely for last minute or urgency browsing where you want to look at something precise and you'll have to zoom in to read it anyway. iPad and other larger screen devices that's another story.

You wanna bet some people are going to take back their iPads to the Apple store when many of their websites are not displaying properly?

And since you quoted an article from Gizmodo the other day here is the latest one, which makes 100% sense to me. It clearly explains what HTML 5 is and what it is not, a real replacement for Flash it is not that is for sure.

http://gizmodo.com/5461711/giz-explains-why-html5-isnt-going-to-save-the-internet

Nuff said...

nick9191

Feb 5, 2010, 02:54 PM

Um, maybe I'm imagining these then:
When you view the BBC website outside of the United Kingdom you will get ads, because you guys obviously don't pay a TV licence. Here all BBC channels, online services etc. are ad free. Just like International BBC channels (BBC America etc.) get adverts, there would be uproar if it was left to the British licence payer to fund the BBC's international operations.

*LTD*

Feb 5, 2010, 02:55 PM

a real replacement for Flash it is not that is for sure.

It all depends where developers take it. That's how standards change.

The anti-Flash movement is being fuelled by Apple and Google. There is only one way this can end well for Adobe:

Adobe reads the writing on the wall and creates tools for HTML5.

localoid

Feb 5, 2010, 03:31 PM

Speaking of Google...

http://dev.chromium.org/_/rsrc/1264459363389/chromium-os/user-experience/form-factors/tablet/tablet2.100.png

I'm looking forward to the multitasking, flash support, built in camera, open source software, and the non-walled garden approach that the Google tablet will offer...

*LTD*

Feb 5, 2010, 03:33 PM

http://dev.chromium.org/_/rsrc/1264459363389/chromium-os/user-experience/form-factors/tablet/tablet2.100.png

I'm looking forward to the multitasking, flash support, built in camera, open source software, and the non-walled garden approach that the Google tablet will offer...

Potential problems in bold.

*LTD*

Feb 5, 2010, 04:20 PM

Today's MDN take. Spot-on.

Note to advertisers: Your Flash-based ads are no longer reaching the most well-heeled customers online: iPhone owners. They're also not hitting iPod touch users. And, very soon, iPad users won't be seeing them, either. If you care about reaching people with discretionary income, you might want to consider dumping your flash-based ads and moving to a more open format that people with money and the will to spend it can actually see.

roadbloc

Feb 5, 2010, 04:27 PM

Your fighting a losing battle *LTD*. As much as I am all up for HTML 5 to take over bloated flash, it is not going to happen for a good few years yet.

I think Apple are thinking too far ahead about not supporting flash, as it is the current video standard, even if it is apparently Dying.

Potential problems in bold.

Why on earth are they potential problems? I hate Apple's app store, how much it charges and it's general restrictive nature. If OS X goes to having an app store, I'm off.

*LTD*

Feb 5, 2010, 05:04 PM

Might as well just get your shows off iTunes if this goes through . . .

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2010-02-03-hulu03_ST_N.htm?csp=hf

The article is too long to reproduce here. Worth a read. Grab a tissue.

Here's the headline:

Free video site Hulu explores premium pricing

Why on earth are they potential problems? I hate Apple's app store, how much it charges and it's general restrictive nature. If OS X goes to having an app store, I'm off.

If your model isn't like Apple's model and you're competing in the same space as Apple, chances are your model won't be as good. Apple bought a controlling share of the Law of Averages a long time ago.

The App Store is immensely successful and immensely popular. And it's only getting bigger. Developers and now publishers are falling all over themselves to get in on it. The question to ask now as a company is not "do we have a website?", but "do we have an iPhone app?"

You'd better get used to the App Store, and I mean Apple's App Store. You'll be seeing a lot more of it because . . . consumers LOVE it, developers LOVE it, and they LOVE the devices that make use of it.

It's that simple.

Rodimus Prime

Feb 5, 2010, 05:19 PM

Might as well just get your shows off iTunes if this goes through . . .

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2010-02-03-hulu03_ST_N.htm?csp=hf

The article is too long to reproduce here. Worth a read. Grab a tissue.

Here's the headline:

Free video site Hulu explores premium pricing

You have not really read that article or even look up what they plan on doing have you?

The pricing plans they are looking at going to are having one were it is add free (monthly fee) and also having a premuim if you want to watch back episodes of the shows.

They are planning on sayinly the only past 2-3 weeks will be able to be watch online. If you want to watch farther back than that it will cost you money. Both those models are really not that bad.
Most people watching stuff on Hulu are trying to keep up with a show they actively follow so they tend to watch new stuff with in a week of it coming out. Both those models will not have any real out rage because you can still follow you stuff for free and the ads have been there for a while.

*LTD*

Feb 5, 2010, 05:21 PM

You have not really read that article or even look up what they plan on doing have you?

The pricing plans they are looking at going to are having one were it is add free (monthly fee) and also having a premuim if you want to watch back episodes of the shows.

They are planning on sayinly the only past 2-3 weeks will be able to be watch online. If you want to watch farther back than that it will cost you money. Both those models are really not that bad.
Most people watching stuff on Hulu are trying to keep up with a show they actively follow so they tend to watch new stuff with in a week of it coming out. Both those models will not have any real out rage because you can still follow you stuff for free and the ads have been there for a while.

That's just the beginning.

Kristenn

Feb 5, 2010, 09:35 PM

Someone told me multitasking is a hardware limitation. Is this true?

roadbloc

Feb 6, 2010, 03:36 AM

Someone told me multitasking is a hardware limitation. Is this true?

Yes and no. With today's hardware, it's probably a software restriction. I somehow managed "multitasking" on Windows 3.1, 8088 Processor with 2MB of ram.

My phone is currently more powerful on that, and yet I can't multitask.

You'd better get used to the App Store, and I mean Apple's App Store. You'll be seeing a lot more of it because . . . consumers LOVE it, developers LOVE it, and they LOVE the devices that make use of it.

It's that simple.

Yes... but I don't think you quite understood what I said. I couldn't care less what everyone else thinks.
I HATE IT!

It's that simple.

Nano2k

Feb 6, 2010, 05:16 AM

It all depends where developers take it. That's how standards change.

The anti-Flash movement is being fuelled by Apple and Google. There is only one way this can end well for Adobe:

I'm sorry but from the Gizmodo article this is not what I understand, HTML5 brings alternatives but nothing is set or agreed between the major players. In the article it is written that Google is only experimenting with HTML5 it is not something which is final. I think it is clear that on the long run nobody trusts the h264 patent holders, they are just keeping it free for now, trying to gain market share and once that is done they will start asking for royalties. So sure things can change, but to claim to know today what is going to happen tomorrow is unrealistic.
HTML5 is mainly there for webapps etc, video and multimedia is not the focal point.

Someone told me multitasking is a hardware limitation. Is this true?

I have multitasking on my jailbroken iPhone 3GS and it works great even with 10 apps running at the same time. There is even a coverflow style app to switch between the applications...

If there isn't multitasking it is because Apple does not want you to have it.