U.S. speeds up arms buildup with Gulf allies and heading for Iran...soon?

[rasmasyean]

U.S. speeds up arms buildup with Gulf allies
Initiatives with Arab nations, military aimed at thwarting Iran attacks

DUBAI, UNITED ARAB EMIRATES - The Obama administration is quietly working with Saudi Arabia and other Persian Gulf allies to speed up arms sales and rapidly upgrade defenses for oil terminals and other key infrastructure in a bid to thwart future military attacks by Iran, according to former and current U.S. and Middle Eastern government officials...(more)
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35161735/ns/world_news-washington_post/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35161735/ns/world_news-washington_post/)

Defense...or Offense? Hmmm?

Discuss... :)

[Zombie Acorn]

If we end up in Iran I am going to be pissed, lets get the hell out of the ME.

[leekohler]

That damn well better not happen. Leave Iran the hell alone and let's get the hell out of the middle east altogether.

[obeygiant]

I think Obama is being prudent in light of what he said last November:

SEOUL, South Korea -- Showing impatience with Iranian foot-dragging, President Barack Obama said Thursday that the U.S. and its allies are discussing possible new penalties to bring fresh pressure on Iran for defying international attempts to halt its contested nuclear program.

Obama's warning came after Iran rejected a compromise proposal to ship its low-enriched uranium abroad so that it could not be further enriched to make weapons. Talk of fresh sanctions also showed that Obama is preparing for the next phase should Iran fail to meet his year-end deadline for progress in negotiations.

"They have been unable to get to `yes', and so as a consequence, we have begun discussions with our international partners about the importance of having consequences," Obama said at a news conference with South Korean President Lee Myung-bak.

"Our expectation is, is that over the next several weeks we will be developing a package of potential steps that we could take that will indicate our seriousness to Iran."link (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/11/19/obama-talks-iran-punishment-way/)

Negotiations are not worth much unless there is something to back it up.

[NathanMuir]

The US views oil as an essential part of US national security. Rest assured we will never 'get the hell out of the Middle East' as most of you suggest.

[Zombie Acorn]

The US views oil as an essential part of US national security. Rest assured we will never 'get the hell out of the Middle East' as most of you suggest.

We will be energy independant by 2025.

[NathanMuir]

We will be energy independant by 2025.

Right....

Regardless of that, that's why I said 'views'. You can think you need something and not actually need it.

[flopticalcube]

I think Obama is being prudent in light of what he said last November:

link (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/11/19/obama-talks-iran-punishment-way/)

Negotiations are not worth much unless there is something to back it up.

Yes. The carrot is more effective when used with the stick at the same time.

[firestarter]

Hey, let's put Saddam back in place to reestablish the Middle-east power balance and give Iran something to keep them occupied.

Oh, wait....

[Sydde]

The middle-east conflict seems to based on Israel. It has been clearly demonstrated that the Jews cannot govern there without causing strife and anger throughout the region. The solution is clearly to bring in the Chinese to replace the Israeli government with independent, secular, quasi-authoritarian management. Israel and Palestine would be united into a single entity in which Jews and Palestinian arabs would have to live side by side, wholly disarmed. The borders would form a weapons cordon, and the international community would be required to support the Chinese autocracy in defending Sino-Israestine against outside aggression as long as tourism and pilgrimage are not restricted. All the residents would be pissed off at the government, but at least they would be united in that and not constantly trying to kill each other.

[flopticalcube]

It has been clearly demonstrated that the Jews cannot govern there without causing strife and anger throughout the region.
How is the acting these days, Mr. Gibson?

[Dont Hurt Me]

Its funny how little tiny almost cant see it on a map Israel is the reason of all islamic worlds problems. Im convinced that if there was no Israel they would go back to beating woman for everything wrong in their world.

[Eraserhead]

How is the acting these days, Mr. Gibson?

What's wrong with his argument. Israel is a large part of the problem in the middle-east.

[flopticalcube]

What's wrong with his argument. Israel is a large part of the problem in the middle-east.
All was peace and light before the founding of Israel? I think not. Furthermore, I do not believe its the religions of the regions that are causing these problems but particular practitioners thereof.

[obeygiant]

The solution is clearly to bring in the Chinese to replace the Israeli government with independent, secular, quasi-authoritarian management. Israel and Palestine would be united into a single entity in which Jews and Palestinian arabs would have to live side by side, wholly disarmed.

Not in your wildest dreams.

[Eraserhead]

Not in your wildest dreams.

Undoubtably the Chinese will get involved in the middle east at some point in some way. And unlike Europe and the US they most certainly won't be bias towards Israel.

[Eraserhead]

All was peace and light before the founding of Israel?

Under the Ottoman empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_empire) it probably was fairly peaceful.

[obeygiant]

Undoubtably the Chinese will get involved in the middle east at some point in some way. And unlike Europe and the US they most certainly won't be bias towards Israel.

China is already involved in the middle east. But the idea that they would, or even want to, become involved in taking over the israel/palestine quagmire is ludicrous.

[Eraserhead]

China is already involved in the middle east. But the idea that they would, or even want to, become involved in taking over the israel/palestine quagmire is ludicrous.

Whether they will get involved as directly as Sydde is implying, they will have to get involved to some degree at some point.

[Macky-Mac]

Never mind the jews and the chinese :rolleyes:

Conflict and confrontation between arabs and persians is a long standing part of history in the Gulf region. That the Gulf states are interested in improving their defenses should come as no surprise. it's something they've been working on for quite a while

[flopticalcube]

Under the Ottoman empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_empire) it probably was fairly peaceful.
And the tyranny of Marshal Tito kept the Balkans in line, doesn't mean Croatian Catholics and Bosnian Muslims can't rule themselves and live side-by-side in peace. Israelis have had good and bad leaders (they currently have a poor one IMO) but to say that "Jews cannot govern there without causing strife and anger throughout the region" seems to be a rather racist statement. Strife and anger have been part of that regions history for thousands of years.

[Eraserhead]

"Jews cannot govern there without causing strife and anger throughout the region" seems to be a rather racist statement.

If that is what I implied I am sorry as it does sound racist :o. What I wanted to say was that the Israeli government causes (or is at least directly involved in) a lot of problems in the middle east.

The Israel-Palestine conflict is one of the worlds biggest problems and it needs to be solved peacefully, I doubt it will be solved by forcing either the Israelis or Palestinians to leave the middle east.

[flopticalcube]

If that is what I implied I am sorry. What I wanted to say was that the Israeli government causes (or is at least directly involved in) a lot of problems in the middle east.
That I have no problem with and quite agree on in many cases, particularly at the moment. The overt and covert benevolence of the US towards Israeli governments in the past has also hurt the US reputation in the region although they have also helped the various Palestinian governments from time-to-time to a much lesser degree. A more balanced approach would probably do loads for the US.

Note that my comment was originally directed at Sydde.

[abijnk]

If we end up in Iran <on a pre-emptive basis like Iraq> I am going to be pissed, lets get the hell out of the ME.

No need to re-type the whole thing, right? :)

[skunk]

As I have said before, the only long-term solution for the Israel-Palestine problem is for there to be a unitary state comprising both Israeli and Palestinian areas, just as the only long-term solution to the Irish conflict is for Ireland to be reunited. These military occupations cannot last.

[Eraserhead]

^^ Agreed. But the first step is for the different groups to be equal as they are to a reasonable degree in Northern Ireland, but not in Israel-Palestine.

[Macky-Mac]

As I have said before, the only long-term solution for the Israel-Palestine problem is for there to be a unitary state comprising both Israeli and Palestinian areas, just as the only long-term solution to the Irish conflict is for Ireland to be reunited. These military occupations cannot last.

^^ Agreed. But the first step is for the different groups to be equal as they are to a reasonable degree in Northern Ireland, but not in Israel-Palestine.

only if both sides to the disputes agree to the idea of a one state solution....otherwise it would just be another form of military occupation

[skunk]

only if both sides to the disputes agree to the idea of a one state solutionWell of course. It may take another generation to happen, but there will be no solution without it.

[flopticalcube]

Well of course. It may take another generation to happen, but there will be no solution without it.
I'm fairly sure there are a reasonable number of sensible people on both sides that would agree to this. Unfortunately, none of them hold the levers of power.

[Sydde]

My apologies for using the forbidden "J" word, I had forgotten that there are still people who think the racial divergence between the opposing factions in that country could be measured on something larger than a gnat's thumbnail. Factional civil unrest around the world, Ireland, Iraq, Israel, and probably a number of countries that start with letters other than "I", all seems to boil down to some sort of religious dispute. Perhaps attaining a position of prominent theological authority should be regarded as a capital offense (or whatever the equivalent is in civilized countries).

[Burnsey]

Its funny how little tiny almost cant see it on a map Israel is the reason of all Jewish worlds problems. Im convinced that if there was no Israel they would go back to beating woman for everything wrong in their world.

If you had posted that, your comment would have been seen as extremely anti-semetic and shunned.

Oh what a world we live in.

[flopticalcube]

My apologies for using the forbidden "J" word, I had forgotten that there are still people who think the racial divergence between the opposing factions in that country could be measured on something larger than a gnat's thumbnail. Factional civil unrest around the world, Ireland, Iraq, Israel, and probably a number of countries that start with letters other than "I", all seems to boil down to some sort of religious dispute. Perhaps attaining a position of prominent theological authority should be regarded as a capital offense (or whatever the equivalent is in civilized countries).
And yet so many religions seem to coexist in peace in many other countries. Maybe you could advance your argument further by using Haiti as an example that black people can't seem to govern themselves. I mean, if it works for religion, why not skin color? Or how about this. Its clear from Iran that Muslims are unable to run a democracy. Lumping people into groups based on their religions is just lazy thinking or racial stereotyping.

[Sydde]

And yet so many religions seem to coexist in peace in many other countries. Maybe you could advance your argument further by using Haiti as an example that black people can't seem to govern themselves. I mean, if it works for religion, why not skin color? Or how about this. Its clear from Iran that Muslims are unable to run a democracy. Lumping people into groups based on their religions is just lazy thinking or racial stereotyping.
If you want to accuse me of that, you have every right. I am just fed up with seeing religion being used as a powerful tool to stoke bigotry, hatred and violence. And there is no need for me to point to any particular place for examples, it is happening right here where I live.

[KingYaba]

If we end up in Iran I am going to be pissed, lets get the hell out of the ME.

You would think the strategy would be air superiority and not an invasion. Own the sky and pound the ground.

[skunk]

You would think the strategy would be air superiority and not an invasion. Own the sky and pound the ground.

Air superiority achieves very little except to destroy yet another country's infrastructure and alienate its citizens.

[Shivetya]

Air superiority achieves very little except to destroy yet another country's infrastructure and alienate its citizens.

Wars are won by destroying the citizens willingness to support their own leadership. Get it right. That is why we have these lingering wars now. WW1 and WW2 were not ended because we beat their military, you have to beat down the support mechanism too. This idiot idea that it just reinforces their will has been proven wrong over and over.

[Eraserhead]

you have to beat down the support mechanism too.

What's that?

And by the way WW1 leading to WW2 is well known. And one of the major reasons there hasn't been a WW3 is thanks to the EU.

[rasmasyean]

Wars are won by destroying the citizens willingness to support their own leadership. Get it right. That is why we have these lingering wars now. WW1 and WW2 were not ended because we beat their military, you have to beat down the support mechanism too. This idiot idea that it just reinforces their will has been proven wrong over and over.

Actually, I'd modify that a bit to say that war is won by destroying the citizen's "capability" to support their own leadership. Although that's rather simplified, we know what you mean. Destroying "willing factory workers" in WW's also contributes to the score. Many Germans were still into their "religion" while we pulverized them, for example.

Hey, many Americans and Brits are opposed to our wars as well. But they still contribute to the economy because their own survival depends on it. Not everyone is a "rebel insurgent" at heart. Like Osama Bin Laden said...if you pay taxes, you support your government, therefore, you are a legitimate target. He's right. Just like we were right at Hiroshima. Unfortunately, most people can't help it as the alternative is to be outcast into being a hermit and starvation...or maybe labeled a traitor.

Because these countries are so poor and hopeless, they DO use extremism to convert normal lemmings into warriors, and this is what you hear about in the news all the time. But you have to still understand that this is only a very small % of the citizens. It's not like the whole population will rise and be like some sort of coordinated ant farm in the time of need. Humans are a bit more "individual"...and that selfishness is what made us king of the jungle in the first place, incidentally. ;)

[Eraserhead]

Because these countries are so poor and hopeless,

Which countries are you talking about?

[rasmasyean]

What's that?

And by the way WW1 leading to WW2 is well known. And one of the major reasons there hasn't been a WW3 is thanks to the EU.

We fought many proxy wars that could have escalated into WW3...IF there weren't nukes. Mutually Assured Destruction is where the credit is due. The EU didn't even exist until recently. And by that time, there was already peace between the "union" or whatever.

[rasmasyean]

Which countries are you talking about?

The jihad countries.

[Eraserhead]

The jihad countries.

Which countries are they?

[rasmasyean]

Which countries are they?

In our context, I thought it would be clear that we are talking about the likes of Pakistan, Afghanistan, and even the former Iraq where resistance has used religion as a tool to make people sacrifice themselves for political ends. If you can't make a guided missile that homes into the embasy...what's the next best thing? Take it there yourself. Stuff like that.

Don't forget that there aren't any Stinger missiles given to rag tag armies now. That being said, it's not easy to take out attack helicopters with exploding bullets fired at 10K RPM.

[Peterkro]

Which countries are they?

Every country except the U.S. and possibly Israel although they can't be relied on totally so best just say the U.S. although there's some Socialistic tendencies there also may be just the far right in the U.S. To be honest they're all out for Jihad so it's basically only rasmasyean that can be trusted and maybe IntheNet.

[Eraserhead]

^^ I thought there were some pretty extreme groups even within the US, so can even they be trusted?