Go get surgery in your own country, OK?

[Shivetya]

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=2510700

Newfoundland Premier Danny Williams will undergo heart surgery later this week in the United States.

I assume Canadian taxpayers are footing his travel bill as well as the extra cost for surgery outside the country, hell it might be cheaper for all we know. Yet, still, it comes down to , what is good for the goose is good for the gander. If his citizens must make use of local facilities I think he should too.

[Eraserhead]

Newfoundland probably doesn't have a good hospital as it is very remote. Only 500k people live there.

"It was never an option offered to him to have this procedure done in this province," said Dunderdale

(source (http://www.canada.com/news/Newfoundland+premier+undergo+heart+surgery/2512350/story.html))

So this isn't a total surprise. Though he may well have been able to have the treatment elsewhere in Canada.

[iBlue]

Wow, so even if the lowly outsiders pay for their healthcare in the US, they're still not welcome? :rolleyes: If a person is not a white, heterosexual republican, they should just piss off? That's some awesome thinking, right there! Bravo!

[No1451]

So this isn't a total surprise. Though he may well have been able to have the treatment elsewhere in Canada.


Might be a matter of specialists that we don't have, or perhaps just doesn't want to deal with a wait-list(which can be a serious issue here).

@Shivetya: He's got money in hand, isn't this exactly what capitalists love?

[jackiecanev2]

Wirelessly posted (BB 8900: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 3_1_2 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/528.18 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0 Mobile/7D11 Safari/528.16)

I'm not sure the OP was saying that the Premiere was unwelcome, but was primarily commenting on the fact that Canadians are subject to public care for all, and questions the confidence and standards of that care should high government officials seek out treatment outside the system. And who will foot the bill? The Canadian healthcare system? And why, just because he is the premiere?

[No1451]

I'm not sure the OP was saying that the Premiere was unwelcome, but was primarily commenting on the fact that Canadians are subject to public care for all, and questions the confidence and standards of that care should high government officials seek out treatment outside the system. And who will foot the bill? The Canadian healthcare system? And why, just because he is the premiere?


We are, but the system is horribly overburdened and mismanaged in many cases. Speaking as a Canadian, if he goes out of country he is picking up the tab for the travel and the surgery, we will pay if he gets the surgery here, otherwise it's on his dime.

Anything other than that is entirely unacceptable.

[rdowns]

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=2510700

Newfoundland Premier Danny Williams will undergo heart surgery later this week in the United States.

I assume Canadian taxpayers are footing his travel bill as well as the extra cost for surgery outside the country, hell it might be cheaper for all we know. Yet, still, it comes down to , what is good for the goose is good for the gander. If his citizens must make use of local facilities I think he should too.


It must suck to live with so much anger inside. We'll pray for you.

[Zombie Acorn]

As I have said before, the US has some of the best health facilities in the world, as long as he can pay his bill he is welcome as far as I am concerned. The only bad news is that few can afford the world's best health care, and some go without completely.

[freeny]

It must suck to live with so much anger inside. We'll pray for you.

This is what the Republican opinion shows produce. Scary eh?

[leekohler]

Hey- I'd much rather wait a bit for a surgery than go bankrupt over it, like what may happen to me if my insurance company doesn't pay what they said they would.

[mkrishnan]

As I understand it, it's not unusual in countries with single-payor or nationalized healthcare to use out-of-country services. This particularly happens in cases where expertise is extremely rare -- it comes up with neurosurgery not infrequently, for instance, where certain procedures are really only done at a handful of sites in the world. It doesn't necessarily mean that nationalized healthcare is a failure, any more than the fact that foreigners provided aid to New Orleans victims indicated that the United States was a failed state in 2004-2005.

That being said, I also don't think it's completely unreasonable to ask why the procedure is being farmed out to the US instead of, say, a major city in Canada.

[flopticalcube]

Only he knows why he is having the surgery in the US. As a country of only 34M people, some people requiring complex or rare procedures are bound to get better treatment from a country roughly 10X as large. If there is no equivalent procedure in Canada, I believe the NL gov't will pay for the bill, otherwise it comes out of his pocket.

[skunk]

what is good for the goose is good for the gander.Would that be Gander, Newfoundland?

[Counterfit]

Newfoundland has a Premier? :confused:

[Sydde]

Newfoundland has a Premier? :confused:

I believe that is a metric Governor, though I could not tell you what the conversion factor is.

[KingYaba]

Go get surgery in your own country, OK?

No, I'd rather people bring their money here.

[Leareth]

while I rather he had gotten the surgery in canada , since we DO have the necessary facilities in his case.
It is pretty normal for some procedures to done in the States , it does not make sense for hospitals to have specialized staff and equipment
that get used a couple times per year (if at all) when the $ can be channeled elsewhere.

[Zombie Acorn]

while I rather he had gotten the surgery in canada , since we DO have the necessary facilities in his case.
It is pretty normal for some procedures to done in the States , it does not make sense for hospitals to have specialized staff and equipment
that get used a couple times per year (if at all) when the $ can be channeled elsewhere.

Why would you rather him get the surgery in Canada? That is a service we offer, Dems talk about losing jobs all the time, yet when we are good at something you want them to not pay for our advanced service?

This is more an argument towards people who live in this country than you particularly.

[Leareth]

Why would you rather him get the surgery in Canada? That is a service we offer, Dems talk about losing jobs all the time, yet when we are good at something you want them to not pay for our advanced service?

This is more an argument towards people who live in this country than you particularly.

because it cost 10X more to do in US what he was able to do in Canada, there was no real reason to go to US for that surgery.
and where is the $ to pay for that coming from ?

[Zombie Acorn]

because it cost 10X more to do in US what he was able to do in Canada, there was no real reason to go to US for that surgery.
and where is the $ to pay for that coming from ?

We have better health facilities than you do.

[NT1440]

We have better health facilities than you do.
No, we just happened to have a facility with a certain specialty.

[Zombie Acorn]

No, we just happened to have a facility with a certain specialty.

Yeh, and we just happen to have a lot of different specialties and they just happen to be the best in the world.

I don't know why you have to try to down our health care advancements as some sort of agenda to get health care to everyone, its fairly obvious we are the one stop shop for top of the line health care if you can afford it. I am with the democrats on UHC (not the congress dems, but the mainstream ones), it doesn't mean I can't have pride in something our country does well.

[NT1440]

Yeh, and we just happen to have a lot of different specialties and they just happen to be the best in the world.

I don't know why you have to try to down our health care advancements as some sort of agenda to get health care to everyone, its fairly obvious we are the one stop shop for top of the line health care if you can afford it.

You're seriously going to say that each and every one of our hospitals are better than every one in other countries?

I don't understand this "everything we have is better because this is America" mentality. Yes we have some GREAT places, but that doesn't make every hospital amazing by default.

[Zombie Acorn]

You're seriously going to say that each and every one of our hospitals are better than every one in other countries?

I don't understand this "everything we have is better because this is America" mentality. Yes we have some GREAT places, but that doesn't make every hospital amazing by default.

If you had a wheel in front of you which you could spin from neurological, physical, and mental diseases. And also had a switch that could pick which country you would be receiving treatment for, which country would you choose?

[Leareth]

We have better health facilities than you do.

for those who have insurance that can afford them :rolleyes:

actually Canadian hospitals are some of the best in the world.
that are accessible to ALL citizens.

[.Andy]

If you had a wheel in front of you which you could spin from neurological, physical, and mental diseases. And also had a switch that could pick which country you would be receiving treatment for, which country would you choose?
I would choose specific physician/surgeons.

[djellison]

If you had a wheel in front of you which you could spin from neurological, physical, and mental diseases. And also had a switch that could pick which country you would be receiving treatment for, which country would you choose?

UK, UK, UK. I've worked in and with the facilities our health service offers. I've worked with the people. I like them. I trust them. I've even seen them treating people who've had car crashes without seatbelts on.

Hey - it's a risk assessment.

[iBlue]

I would choose specific physician/surgeons.

Definitely.

Zombie Acorn - The overall standard may be considered to be higher in the US from a statistical standpoint but the individual care you receive can vary hugely, as can the hospital and medical staff. I've seen some great facilities in the US and some really crappy ones. Same goes for the UK and I'm sure many other countries, including Canada.

Choosing by country alone is FAR too vague and leaves too much room for uncertainty. What if I choose the US and end up in some craphole hospital in the middle of Nebraska or something?

I live in London, England. I wouldn't feel the need to leave the city or country for medical care. On the contrary, I feel I am in better hands here and I don't have to worry about if my private insurance is going to falter because we've got the NHS. I would never trade what we have here for the US system.

[eawmp1]

Are you equally offended by US citizens without health insurance or on long waiting lists for, say, organ transplantation travelling to other countries for more expedient and cheaper care in India (performed often by US-trained physicians)?

If you are paying cash, capitalism allows you to spend it where you want. I guess we should put a fence on our northern border to keep out those damned illegal patients taking up precious US hospital beds?

[Eraserhead]

^^ That's a good point, you'd probably go to India or Thailand for a lot of treatment if you had to pick a country/hospital, because of the low cost in their high-quality clinics.

[Peterkro]

^^ That's a good point, you'd probably go to India or Thailand for a lot of treatment if you had to pick a country/hospital, because of the low cost in their high-quality clinics.

For an example:


Bone marrow surgery in the US costs around $250,000 and in the UK about £150,000 however the cost can be cut to around $30,000 with the same quality of treatment. How?

Patients can travel to India and get bone marrow surgery done at this vastly reduced cost as infrastructure costs are lower than in the UK and Europe yet the treatments still remain world class and this is reflected in the success rate.

90% Success rate

Indian hospitals are performing bone marrow replacement surgery to the same level of expertise and with the same success rate as in Europe and America at nearly 90%, at a cost that makes bone marrow surgery available to more people than ever.

With such an important operation bone marrow transplant costs are consideration, but even more important is the quality of the treatment.

In India you (get) world class treatments and expertise at your disposal at lower costs

http://ezinearticles.com/?Bone-Marrow-Surgery-%96-World-Class-Surgery-at-Best-Prices&id=193866

Now the obvious difference here is that in the U.K. (and most of the rest of Europe and Canada) you would just go ahead and get it done by the NHS whereas if your in the U.S. and either don't have insurance or the company is doing the normal dicking about on payment it may well be easier and cheaper to go to India.( I might also point out that a large number of the Indian surgeons would have had the benefit of training with the NHS)

[bobob]

what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

Would that be Gander, Newfoundland?

...and Goose Bay?

[skunk]

If you had a wheel in front of you which you could spin from neurological, physical, and mental diseases. And also had a switch that could pick which country you would be receiving treatment for, which country would you choose?

No country has a monopoly on either competent or incompetent specialists. To say otherwise is simplistic, jingoistic nonsense. You should know better.

[NT1440]

If you had a wheel in front of you which you could spin from neurological, physical, and mental diseases. And also had a switch that could pick which country you would be receiving treatment for, which country would you choose?
Probably my own seeing as I live here. That said, if I had the money and had an ailment that the Mayo clinic specializes in, I'd probably want to go there. I have a feeling if someone is traveling to the states for surgery, its probably because the facility is world renowned for it, not because of some knee jerk "America, hell yea!" response.

You realize that people actually think their medical problems through before dropping that much money to travel right?

[Zombie Acorn]

Probably my own seeing as I live here. That said, if I had the money and had an ailment that the Mayo clinic specializes in, I'd probably want to go there. I have a feeling if someone is traveling to the states for surgery, its probably because the facility is world renowned for it, not because of some knee jerk "America, hell yea!" response.

You realize that people actually think their medical problems through before dropping that much money to travel right?

If money isn't an option America is where you go.

[NT1440]

If money isn't an option America is where you go.
:rolleyes:

I love your sweeping generalizations. Yes it's where you go IF there is a place in America that specializes in what you need done that happens to be the best in that field for some reason. I really don't understand why you think our medical services are better at anything and everything.

[Surely]

I would choose specific physician/surgeons.

Exactly. There are good and bad doctors in every country. When you're comparing countries like Canada and the US, you can probably find doctors with similar skills in both countries.

You choose based on the doctor. Unfortunately, ever since I moved to the US, I have to choose my doctor based on the list of doctors that are covered by my insurance company. I don't call that choice.

I've been in hospitals in Toronto (once as a patient to have a minor procedure performed, and many times as a visitor), and the ones I went to are fine facilities. Toronto's Sick Kids Hospital, for example, is a world-class facility.

You have to keep in mind that the US has a much, much larger population, which means there are more doctors. This means that a specific doctor may be easier to find in the US than in Canada, simply because there are more to choose from.


The cynic in me thinks that perhaps there is a political motivation behind his decision to go to the US for surgery. Perhaps he wants to light a fire under the healthcare debate in Canada. However, I'm not fully aware of his position on healthcare. Maybe he's just a rich guy who doesn't care about the optics of his decision. He is known as a grandstander. If he had any thoughts of running for PM one day, I think he just killed his chances.

I find it hard to believe that he can't find a single doctor in Canada with the skill-set needed to perform his surgery (BTW, he is not disclosing what procedure he is having performed).

[Zombie Acorn]

:rolleyes:

I love your sweeping generalizations. Yes it's where you go IF there is a place in America that specializes in what you need done that happens to be the best in that field for some reason. I really don't understand why you think our medical services are better at anything and everything.

We have great specialists in every category.

[Eraserhead]

If money isn't an option America is where you go.

Depends on where you live, if you live in Asia/Australia you'd probably be better off going to India/Singapore/Thailand.

And if you don't want to get over-tested you'd probably avoid the US even from Europe.

[.Andy]

We have great specialists in every category.
But not the best. And certainly not the most affordable or available.

[skunk]

We have great specialists in every category.As do many countries. This blanket assertion does not support your jingoism.

[Zombie Acorn]

As do many countries. This blanket assertion does not support your jingoism.

Heres an interesting ranking of hospitals in the world:

http://hospitals.webometrics.info/top1000.asp

[skunk]

Heres an interesting ranking of hospitals in the world:

http://hospitals.webometrics.info/top1000.aspHave you actually bothered to read about what criteria the rankings are based on?

[NT1440]

Have you actually bothered to read about what criteria the rankings are based on?

Why would he? Remember, America's the best no matter what. Why? Because, "America, hell yea!":rolleyes:

[Macky-Mac]

Have you actually bothered to read about what criteria the rankings are based on?


hmmm....did they include medical care at all?


About the Ranking


Objectives of the Webometrics Ranking of World's Hospitals

The original aim of the Ranking was to promote Web publication, not to rank institutions. Supporting Open Access initiatives, electronic access to scientific publications and to other academic material are our primary targets.

As other rankings focused only on a few relevant aspects, specially research results, web indicators based ranking reflects better the whole picture, as many other activities of professors and researchers are showed by their web presence.

The Web covers not only only formal (e-journals, repositories) but also informal scholarly communication. Web publication is cheaper, maintaining the high standards of quality of peer review processes. It could also reach much larger potential audiences, offering access to scientific knowledge to researchers and institutions located in developing countries and also to third parties (economic, industrial, political or cultural stakeholders) in their own community.

The Webometrics ranking has a larger coverage than other similar rankings. The ranking is not only focused on research results but also in other indicators which may reflect better the global quality of the scholar and research institutions worldwide.

We intend to motivate both institutions and scholars to have a web presence that reflect accurately their activities. If the web performance of an institution is below the expected position according to their academic excellence, hospital authorities should reconsider their web policy, promoting substantial increases of the volume and quality of their electronic publications.

[Zombie Acorn]

Have you actually bothered to read about what criteria the rankings are based on?

I just said it was interesting.

[Zombie Acorn]

Why would he? Remember, America's the best no matter what. Why? Because, "America, hell yea!":rolleyes:

Are you denying that the US has some of the top medical facilities in the world?

[skunk]

I just said it was interesting.... but not relevant.

[skunk]

Are you denying that the US has some of the top medical facilities in the world?Nobody has denied that. Cats are four-legged animals, but not all four-legged animals are cats.

[Zombie Acorn]

... but not relevant.

Somewhat, we have a list of US hospitals that are top of the game. It was the only statistics I found ranking world hospitals in any way.

Nobody has denied that. Cats are four-legged animals, but not all four-legged animals are cats.

And the US still contains more of the best hospitals in the world than any other country.

[NT1440]

Are you denying that the US has some of the top medical facilities in the world?

Jesus Christ man, read some damn posts. What is wrong with you? Do you just shut everything out until you wish to respond to me?

[Macky-Mac]

Somewhat, we have a list of US hospitals that are top of the game. It was the only statistics I found ranking world hospitals in any way. ......

too bad it wan't ranking them for medical care :rolleyes:

[Zombie Acorn]

too bad it wan't ranking them for medical care :rolleyes:

They are the best hospitals regardless.

[skunk]

They are the best hospitals regardless.According to the Zombie Acorn Totally Irrelevant Ranking According To Internet Presence System™? Or according to some relevant criterion?

[Zombie Acorn]

According to the Zombie Acorn Totally Irrelevant Ranking According To Internet Presence System™?

University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston
University of Michigan Health System
University of Kansas Medical Center
NYU Langone Medical Center New York, NY
University of Virginia Health System
Vanderbilt Medical Center
Johns Hopkins Medicine

I am confident that some of the best medical care in the world resides in the top 7 hospitals on that list.

[TuffLuffJimmy]

And the US still contains more of the best hospitals in the world than any other country.

And how many of those "best hospitals in the world" does the average American get to use?

[skunk]

I am confident that some of the best medical care in the world resides in the top 7 hospitals on that list.More than likely, but still irrelevant.

[NT1440]

University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston
University of Michigan Health System
University of Kansas Medical Center
NYU Langone Medical Center New York, NY
University of Virginia Health System
Vanderbilt Medical Center
Johns Hopkins Medicine

I am confident that some of the best medical care in the world resides in the top 7 hospitals on that list.
Your original assertion was that America's hospitals are all the best.

[Zombie Acorn]

Your original assertion was that America's hospitals are all the best.

No, I said that America can offer the best and most diverse health care if you can afford it. Our basic health care system is terrible.

[Zombie Acorn]

And how many of those "best hospitals in the world" does the average American get to use?

I think there may be some confusion here, the normal person is not going to have access to the "best" hospitals or care. If I was a rich person and could have a choice of any country to have "x" disease in and be assured I could find a great specialist I would choose the US.

[Surely]

Dig dig dig.....

[Zombie Acorn]

Dig dig dig.....

I have been in favor of UHC for quite some time now, I don't know how I could be digging.

[skunk]

I think there may be some confusion here, the normal person is not going to have access to the "best" hospitals or care.... and therein lies the big difference between US healthcare and that found in the civilised world.

[TuffLuffJimmy]

I think there may be some confusion here, the normal person is not going to have access to the "best" hospitals or care. If I was a rich person and could have a choice of any country to have "x" disease in and be assured I could find a great specialist I would choose the US.

So what does having the best hospitals in the world have to do with our healthcare?

[Zombie Acorn]

So what does having the best hospitals in the world have to do with our healthcare?

We have them.

[NT1440]

We have them.

Woo hoo?

[skunk]

We have them.Insufficient and misleading. Like other countries, you have some of the best. Merely repeating the same canard ad nauseam does not make it any truer.

[Burnsey]

Our hospitals are generally very modern, clean, well equipped and well staffed, and yes they are accessible to everyone.

[Peterkro]

Our hospitals are generally very modern, clean, well equipped and well staffed, and yes they are accessible to everyone.

That's interesting,which country would that be?

[skunk]

That's interesting,which country would that be?Your adopted home, I believe. :)

[OriginalFormula]

Somewhat, we have a list of US hospitals that are top of the game. It was the only statistics I found ranking world hospitals in any way.



And the US still contains more of the best hospitals in the world than any other country.

Using that ranking's methodology, Google is the best hospital in the world.

Last I checked, that wasn't the case.

[Burnsey]

That's interesting,which country would that be?

The united provinces of canuckistan.